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Haven't posted in a little over a week as I have had a bunch going on.  I took care of my wife after her surgery a week ago and stayed for several days after with her to take care of her.  I have been staying with her since my daughter broke my toilet in my apartment on Christmas Eve and we have gotten along great!  No dysregulations to speak of and have done a lot of validating.  I have also let her be when she gets upset with something and don't JADE at all.  She has painted her mom black as night along with her sister too now and I just let her deal with that.  We are starting to talk about some tough issues and getting through them.  It's been a great couple of weeks and looking forward to more. 

Well, my wife dysregulated today.   .   I saw it coming and couldn't do anything about it.  Tried not to JADE, and know I did, but sometimes it can't be avoided.  She asked me to help pay the washer and dryer off, which I have had a problem with because all I have paid since we separated.  It had to be paid by tomorrow to not have any interest hit (one year interest free financing and she took them in the separation).  I asked her today to help me understand why she expects me to pay any of it when I have paid every car note since we separated and she hasn't offered to pay a penny.  She then threw up the fact that "she paid" for a family cruise a year and a half ago out of her bonus and I had no problem letting her.  I told her that every bit of my money I have made the last five years had gone into our household which means my money went into that vacation as well and that the family vacation she is bringing up is irrelevant to our current situation as we weren't separated.  She said, "of course so you don't have to be responsible."  I told her that she is not being responsible by not paying what she owes during our separation that she chose by bringing up the cruise and that was the only justification she could come up with.  She belittled the money I made and I told her that she had no problem with me bringing it into the house and yet unlike her ex husband who never worked, I actually have a job that I can support myself on.  She said, well if you could support yourself then why did you say we could save 1000 dollars a month by us living together again. I told her a couple of days ago that when our lease is up we should think live together again.  Today she threw it up to me and twisted my words around by saying "I could save 1000 a month.  I told her that wasn't what I said and she knows what I said and the reason is  because we love each other, we shouldn't be apart and we could put that towards our bills instead of two different dwellings which is a waste of money. She said how convenient for me as that would give me a financial advantage.   . She gave me a bogus figure and I told her the correct figure.  She said that she isn't going to pay any car notes until she recoups some of what she lost during our marriage ( Yet her ex husband owes her 40,000 in back child support).  She said that I'm all about me and that is why I have a new phone and new shoes.  I told her I'm sorry she feels that way.  I said fine, then they will repossess your car because I gave them your address.  And I won't pay the washer and dryer because she refuses to be responsible for what she owes and she said neither will she.  We drove up to the house (kids were not with us) and she said that she would get my stuff and for me to wait outside.  When she gave me my things she told me to "get off her property".  Honestly, I'm so sick of that crap.  She got a few of my things and kept my apartment key and gate fob and didn't realize it until I got home.  I'm getting my apartment rekeyed as we speak as I won't give her access to my apartment when she is concerned about money. 

     We had a great couple of weeks.  A couple of things I have noticed about myself and about the situation.  One is, she was fine until I stood my ground about the car notes and the washer and dryer.  In other words, she is throwing a temper tantrum to get her way.  I did raise my voice a couple of times, but it wasn't a full on shouting match or anything.  I did tell her I felt I was being used.  Don't care if that is JADE'ing or not, but it's the truth and have a right to speak it.  I did stay with her at her place several times and spent quite a bit of time over there.  At times, I wanted to be at my place rather than there and it wasn't her as much as how much she lets the kids run over her.  Our oldest son controls the house (he makes everyone miserable and my wife caters to him by not doing the hard thing), for instance, we wanted to watch some football and instead of telling I'm to get off his video games, she said lets watch it on the iPad in her room.  She knew if she did he would give her hell.  Irritating.  Oh well.  A step back, but not the end... .

I'm so sorry you had to go through that.  I've been through very similar arguments.  Eerily similar   It's always the same thing.  Things may be going well, and then one little trigger over money, and then it's about how I don't earn enough, am not ambitious enough, don't manage money well, paid too much for my house, etc.  And when I try to point out that, I am the only one working and that I spend much less than her - it just makes her voice raise and the defenses worse.

About all I can suggest is to find a way to leave these arguments sooner so that they don't escalate this bad.  But you are right, eventually these arguments happen, and you need to somehow be honest with yourself and say what needs to be said.  It sounds to me like she got upset because your initial comment was accusatory and defensive (even though it was warranted, though).  I'm not sure how to approach this different.

It was in the car so I couldnt "leave it", and tried to change the subject to no avail.  She didn't like the fact that I stood up for myself and asked her why when I have paid 2400 in car notes for her and she hasn't offered a dime towards them (does not include mine that I'm paying for and both of our names are on them) that she expects me to pay 600 towards the washer and dryer... .That's not defensive, it's a fair question.  If she was as concerned about the washer and dryer the last six months as she was painting me black and going on vacations during that same time, she could have paid them off.  It wasn't that important to her.  She didn't want to.

Nothing wrong with standing up for yourself.  I applaud you for doing that  |iiii.  And your question is definitely fair!  I'm only pointing out how she views your response to her asking you for money.  She sees you responding with a question to her request as argumentative or defensive, no matter how fair that question is.  Unfortunately, you were put in a no-win situation here.  Had you simply said "no", she would have demanded an explanation.  But if you simply could have just said "no, I am not going to do that." and left it at that, it would have spared you the rest of her vitriol.  Unfortunately, you were trapped in the car   Been there, don't that.  I hate when she brings up stuff in the car!

Here is an similar thing that happened to me the other day:  She overslept (turned off her alarm and went back to sleep).  I slept later than normal, quickly got up, made coffee, showered, and got ready for work.  Before I left, I woke her up enough to say goodbye.  She was furious for me not waking her earlier, blaming me for her missing an appointment. We've had this discussion before, where I tell her that it is not my responsibility to ensure she gets up on time for her own appointments, and I am not going to physically drag her out of bed.  I asked her what she wanted me to do.  She suggested that I turn on a light or open the blinds so that way she is not in the dark.  I reminded her that the last time I opened the blinds, she yelled at me for waking her up (100% true - was just a few days prior to this incident).  And then she exploded. 

So what was I supposed to do?  I felt that I needed to explain to her why I would not open the blinds and try to wake her up.  Didn't matter.  She rejected the explanation as me pushing the responsibility back on her.  Her real issue was that she feels it is my responsibility to take care of her and make her feel special.  And me getting up on my own and getting ready for work was abandoning her and putting my needs in front of hers.  I suspect that is what you are really dealing with here.   She's feeling abandoned by you.  And once the feeling of abandonment has taken over - anything else you do at that point is just a waste of energy.  My wife may calm after a few hours, but it takes a few days for the feeling to completely go away.  But it rears right back up the second another trigger comes her way.

     I agree that she feels abandoned by that, but I can't do much about it.  I have done everything I can to make her feel the opposite the last two weeks.  I was the only one there for her during her surgery and bought groceries and food and dinners for us and the kids because she was low on funds.

     I also asked her the other day why she continued to have me blocked on Facebook as that is a misrepresentation of herself to people when she tells me she wants to work on the marriage and get counseling but doest show married in her info.  After about 15 minutes of projecting onto my family about them "saying things to her" (total lie, more like she doesn't want to face then) and telling her it made me feel bad and it seemed that what other people thought was more important than what I thought, she finally cracked and said, "She doesn't want to explain to people why she has told them one thing and now would have to tell them the opposite.  It's none of their business."  I just left it at that and let it soak... .if anyone should feel abandoned it should be me... .:)

 

Quick comment on your tactics... .

it sounds like you guys "debated... " issues some.

Do you think it would have been better to just decline the offer to help... .and move along.?

I don't think it would have mattered.  I do think it was more of a debate, but we haven't spoken since this morning.  I told her I would try and help and tried and couldn't by tomorrow's date.  She chose to get mad and tell me to leave.  The issue is she is more concerned about a debt that can't be repossessed than she is about things that can.  She is majoring on the minor.  I'm not going to feel guilty because she chose not to pay it when she chose to do other things.  I'm just not.

All I can say is hang in there and do as little JADEing as you can.

Regarding the request for help paying off the washer/dryer... .looking back with 20/20 hindsight, I remember a quote I saw around here recently:

"I finally realized that 'No' is a complete sentence in the Engilsh language."

If you aren't paying, the why is less important than the no. And saying why without JADEing is pretty much impossible.

I think you have "misdiagnosed" the main issue.

Which sort of highlights the point of not trying to figure out what they are thinking... .and only respond to the behavior.  Because I certainly don't know what she is thinking... .but I'll offer my opinion... .it's as good as... .well... .we'll let the crowd decide.

I think the real issue is that she wants to control you... .or when she has a concern... .that you are "controllable" to fix the concern.  She believes this should happen and be "one sided".  She gets what she wants... .and to heck with what you want... .or a "standard of behavior" in relationships.

There is another issue of being able to accurately figure out what should and shouldn't be concerning.

Now... .do I think she is thinking those exact thoughts... .I doubt it... .but I think she sees your "flaws"... .and ignores hers.

I totally agree with your post FF!  That's why this time I'm not concerned.  I'm more concerned with sticking to the fact that I won't fix it and bow to her controlling behavior. Each time this happens I understand a bit better what she is trying to do.  I'm not concerned this time trying to "understand" why she is doing things.  Im much better this time.  I'm more concerned with sticking to my guns.  Now I just need to shore up my "flaws" and move forward.  What do you suggest? 

I like how you asked for her help in "understanding"... .but then you listed off some facts and assumptions.

I suspect those facts and assumptions were "invalidating" to her... .or something along those lines.

that "invites" her to toss out her facts and assumptions... .

If you could have focused more on validation of the underlying emotion of the request... .than debating the actual request... .might have come out a bit better.

I really think there was some invalidation here.

Thoughts?

I agree that there was some invalidation there, but it was also the truth.  The truth sometimes is invalidating.  In that moment, I'll be honest, I didn't care about being invalidating.  I wanted to tell the truth about how I felt about the situation.  I felt I just needed to lay it on the line. 

You made an informed choice.  It is powerful to be able to make those choices.

You also get to live with the consequences of those choices.

Quick advice:  I would stay away from invalidating until the r/s is much more stable.  If your goal is to be a "stayer" and reunite your family... .invalidation at this point is really counterproductive.

If you only want to be a stayer... .or reunite your family... .AS LONG AS you are able to speak the truth as you see it... .then that is your choice to make... .and your actions match that choice.

My hope is that you gain clarity about your goals... .then make sure your actions match your goals.

Hang in there... .

I have gained clarity about my goals and they never changed.  My goal is for my marriage to work. I feel in every area that I can I have made those changes and my actions reflect that, even backing off of some of original "lines" to show that.  That was the first invalidation in weeks.  In fact, I had spent those few weeks validating, validating, validating, taking care of her needs (surgery and otherwise), going shopping for Christmas with her and taking care of the needs around the house and the kids.  I'm trying to keep myself from being used.  I love her dearly and she knows that. 

That's good... .it seems like you are becoming more and more aware of what is validating and what is not.

Very important to understand that invalidation is a much more powerful tool that validation. 

1 invalidation is "worth" many many validations.

That is why we try to help people understand that the first step is to "stop the bleeding"... .to stop invalidating. 


We can never "know" exactly how many "validations" were wiped out by any one "invalidation"... .that's not the point I'm trying to make.  The point I'm trying to make is that one "invalidation will "wipe out"... .or "set you back"... .the ground you gained in several "validations."

It sounds like you made a choice to do that... .and again... .it's powerful to be able to make those choices.  It's liberating.  I sometimes make similar choices... .and do so with the full knowledge that I will have a mess to clean up... .and that will take much more effort than if I had avoided the invalidation in the first place. 

What is the plan to "clean things up"... ? .and get back to the work of reconciliation.

Also just wanted to make sure you and everyone reading this thread understands that it's not about what she "knows"... it's about what she feels... .at any one moment.

Our goal is to do what we can to "level out" the swings between when she feels like you love her... .and when she feels like she doesn't.

Maroon,

What is your strategy for this?

     My strategy is to continue to validate what I can and get back to not invalidating.  One website I read uses the Love Bank method.  it is kind of the same theory in that you have to work at "filling it", but it's real easy to make withdraws and harder to fill it once that is done.  I need to read up pn both again.  It does work.  One situation last week where I validated and skirted a dysregulation was when my daughter asked me to take her somewhere and I agreed.  I was late picking her and her friend up (overslept) from our daughter's friend's house.  When I got to my wife's house to pick her up, my wife said, "You don't have to be involved with this if you don't want to.  I can take them and you can go home if you would rather do that."  My response was, "It is frustrating that I was late this morning.  I didn't put enough emphasis on being on time and it was my fault for hitting snooze twice and that is my fault and I'm sorry.  I agreed to take our daughter because I want to spend time with her, do what I agreed to do and want to spend time with you."  She got over it pretty quick and we had a great day.  That was Thursday and she dysregulated on Friday. 

     Thinking about this more, I think I see where another issue may be.  For Christmas, I bought her two gifts, one extravagant (400 dollars) and one typical.  For clarification, I consider a "typical gift" one that is 50 to a 100 dollars and not sentimental.  Clarifying more, I consider "typical" to be clothes, shoes etc, and extravagant to be more thought out and sentimental (jewelry, mementos, heirlooms, things of that nature that require thought and are more than 100).  She bought me a typical gift for Christmas that I loved.  I told her how much I appreciated it and validated that.  She loved the "typical" gift I got her but when it came to accepting my "extravagant gift", she said she couldn't and asked that I take it back because of where we are in our relationship (but I now see that as an excuse).  I think she wanted me to take it back to give her the money for the washer and dryer.  I did take it back, and maybe I shouldn't have, I don't know.  One thing she brought up in our debate is that I didn't offer to give her the money (to put towards the washer and dryer) when I returned it.  I hadn't received it yet due to waiting for it to be refunded (debit card refund takes several days) and told her so.  I can see where that made her feel bad (returned the gift and also didn't offer it... .two different issues there), but I saw it as she doesn't even wear her wedding ring right now so why would she wear that.  I'm not trying to explain this away or try and figure out what she is thinking as I know that is impossible, but trying to see what my actions caused... .Does that make sense?

    Bottom line, she asked me for help to pay off the washer and dryer and I said I would try, AND DID... .It didn't work out like she wanted it to and in the timeframe she expected.  That's the bottom line problem in my eyes.  She again, wanted (expected maybe?) for me to "fix" it.  Because I didn't, she had to deal with the consequence.  The irony is it was her consequence to deal with due to her choices.  All the time on here it's said, don't shield them from their choices.  I understand that on some level I did try and shield her from it by trying to help, and JADE by justifying my inability to help by saying, "I don't feel it's right for you to expect me to pay this when you won't pay that... .I get that.  The biggest hurdle I feel is she throws temper tantrums (silent treatment, "kicking me to the curb" for short time, etc) when she doesn't get her way (i.e. not doing what she wants or expects).  Now, things are much better than they used to be (less volatile) obviously, but my biggest hurdle is getting us in counseling when she says that is what she wants.  Before the silent treatment a few days ago, she asked if I would make the appointment with that lady that I saw a while back which she didn't show up to nor does she know I went.  

This sets up the ability for her to ask "why" questions... .why didn't it work out... .which sets you up for JADE.

This "line of attack" is pretty standard fare for her... .asking you to pay things.

I think you need to take a couple steps back... .take a deep breath... .and think up a general answer... .to the general issue of will or won't you pay things.  Then stick with it. 

After I read this answer... .I believe there may be some intermittent reinforcement going on here... .along with some invalidation.

By "debating" the gift and the washer... .IMO... .it was "linking" the two.  pwBPD love to "link" things that are in no way related. 

Debating it acknowledged the link... .IMO.

It's been done... .I think going back to try and repair this interaction or dysregulation would open it up again... .and it would bleed more.  I only mention this to tweak things for next time.

Gifts: It's your money... .its your choice to give her a gift or not.  If she doesn't want it... .that's her choice.  That story is over.

Washer (or anything).  She made the deal... .it's her issue to work out.  End of story.

Your money:  You get to choose how you spend your money.  No explanations or apologies needed.  End of story.

Her money:  She gets to choose how she spends it.  No explanation or apologies needed.  End of story.

If you both mutually agree to co-mingle some funds.  Then those funds can get used for whatever you both can mutually agree on.  End of story.

Don't link stories... .or even acknowledge that they might be linked.

What I think is better strategy is to ask her to help you understand what she is trying to communicate better.  Listen for the ideas... .also listen for emotions and things to validate.  Take not of things (landmines) that you don't want to invalidate... .stay far away from them.

Waverider said it really well a while back.  She is giving you "headlines"... .newsflashes if you will.  And apparently wants you to act on those headlines.  What you need to help her understand is that you want to understand the full story... .you want to read the entire article.

Hope this helps... .I think this new year is going to be much better for you than the last year.

     I agree that I have intermittently reinforced her behavior.  I need to shore that up so to speak.  I am having a hard time separating/figuring out what is "right" and what I should do as a husband... .Know what I mean?  

    I have done the very best I can to get her to think through things and helping her through that and validating her underlying emotions.  I have done very well in helping her to understand that I want to know the "full story" and she has commented as such.  One thing she told me the other day is she likes "the new me".  Been trying to be more proactive in doing the "little things" to halp our relationship.  Why do you think this year will be better than last?

You cannot take that behavior away from her.

Time to do some track practice and start winning races where you have a bunch of hurdles to jump over.

If she sees you flying over them one after the other, she will eventually notice that putting them in front of you is wasted energy on her part  :) *) :)

Not sure you flew over the last one, but you didn't catch your leg and fall flat on your face, at least!

Nice analogy... .I like it!

I disagree... .you need to stop that!

invalidation and intermittent reinforcement are "multipliers"... .if you don't get those under control... or best... .gone... .they will continue to "exponentially" set you back.


 

I think you should start a new thread... .or maybe a separate thread for each "thing" that you are trying to figure out what is right... .what your values are.    These values need to be clarified... .solidified... .that will help avoid intermittent reinforcement.



Is that in the lessons?  Is her "thinking" your "battleground" (watch out... .here comes my military side)... .

I submit to you that it is not.

What do you think her "battleground" or "center of gravity" is.  The google definition of center of gravity is adequate for our purposes.


This is good... .keep up good work.  Look for ways to boost efforts so she notices more.


Maroon,

I think this year will be better for you because you have gained much in knowledge about "what you are dealing with".   You are in the midst of figuring out healthy choices that you can make for the r/s.  By and large... .you seem fine with making healthy choices and letting the chips fall as they may.

Generally... .once people start understanding how to deal with pwBPD traits... .or the start understanding... .they can take new concepts onboard rather quickly.  I suspect you will learn way more this year than you did last year.

When I said, "shore that up", I meant stop it.  Maybe wasn't the right choice of words.  The only reason I can figure out why I "give in" it is to "try and make things better and to work through it where that issue isn't between us anymore" like she wants (black and white issues as she calls them), even to my own detriment.  I see I am making it worse at times and she continues to "pull the lever on the slot machine".  As far as invalidation, yeah, I did it by telling the truth and lived with the consequences.  I have stopped 99% of it, but that day, I couldn't help myself with that one.  It actually felt good to say the truth, which I believe is one of the main reasons the silent treatment this time has little to no affect on me at all.  


That is a good analogy.  I feel I am doing a lot better with these hurdles than before.  I'm glad I didn't fall flat on my face even though she is trying the silent treatment again.    :)

My new years resolution for you... .or "goal"... .is that next year I'm reading a post from you that says... .

"I made a choice today to say what I believed.  That choice was empowering to me... .  She dysregulated and I am in the process of using tools to clean up the mess."

What differences do you notice in what you have written... .and what my goal is for you to write next year?

I need to be more confident in what I believe and stand up for it/myself regardless of the outcome.  I am too afraid of the pissing her off/consequences or saying the wrong thing rather than standing up for what I feel is right.  Is that close?  I feel like at first you said I was wrong for standing for what I believe in, but what you're saying is stand up for it, but don't JADE in the process... .Regardless, I have to be ready to clean it up... .

Not really wrong or right... .

You invalidated her... .some intermittent reinforcement... .and she dysregulated.  No shock there... .those things go hand in hand... .

It's not wrong or right... .you made a choice to do those things... .

If your goal was to stand up for the truth... .I think you accomplished your goal.

If you goal is to lower "emotional reactivity"... .increase times when she can "hear" what you are really saying because her emotions are in check... .then I think you missed the mark by a pretty wide margin.

Those goals and desires are exclusive of one another... .I'm not aware of how to do them both.

I can think of ways to "prepare" her to have a better chance of hearing the truth... .but whether or not she "hears"... ."understands"... .the truth you are speaking... that's hard to predict.

Do you think she understands the "truth" that you told her?

That's a great question.  Yes and no?   :)

One thing I have noticed about myself this past 4 days of "silence" is it isn't bothering me hardly at all anymore and starting to see her patterns.  I guess this is when they stop some of their behaviors when they see it doesn't bother you?  

Close... .this is when then will most likely "alter" their patterns of behavior.

You have changed... .likelihood she will not change is very very low.

We can't "force" a specific change... .such as stopping... .

If you are exhibiting healthy behaviors... .that increases likelihood that their change will trend towards healthy... .

I see that already in some areas where she isn't dysregulating like she used to with all our yelling and aggression.  I did raise my voice with her last week, but only slightly, realized it and calmed down.  One thing I need to work more on validating with my wife is her feelings of being used.  I have trouble seeing that one in the midst of it rearing her ugly head, but that has been big her whole life with her dad and ex husband.  I'm not someone who uses her and never have been.

Don't bring it up... unless she brings it up.

If she does... .don't validate... .ask more gentle... .open ended questions... .do lots of listening.

You are listening for more emotions to validate... .

But... .the goal is not to validate... .the goal is to collect data... .see where this train of thought goes... .

She has accused me of it over the years and brought it up again last week.  She is projecting onto me, but also feels like everyone uses her.

Eventually they stop the behavior because they don't get the reward/result they want. (You are hurt/bothered, and cave in and give in to whatever she was upset about... .in your case, that would be paying for the washer/dryer)

The more consistent you are, the sooner she will notice the lack of results and give up!

I'm doing my best not to cave.  Dealing with some emotion today and don't know why.  I am missing her some, dealing with some fear and just trying to sit here with it and see what else pops up.  A feeling in the pit of my stomach that happens when in the past I would come to the point of "caving".  Not this time.  I'm a lot stronger than I used to be.  Certainly don't want to break down and contact her.  I love her but know that being strong is just as important.

As I said yesterday, I see the cycles my wife goes through a lot better now.  Even though she has me blocked, I still check her facebook covertly (not as much anymore though) to help with see what part of the cycle she is in.  This morning I checked and noticed she posted a meme as her profile picture that said, "People deserve a second chance, but not a third", and then immediately replaced it with the same profile picture I have of the two of us on mine except on hers I'm photoshopped out and it's zoomed in on just her in black and white.  How ironic... .   It is actually my favorite picture of us and we talked about it last week.  She even commented that she "felt pretty" when it was taken and told her that she still is.  It is also strange that she puts this one up the week after we have a discussion about her having me blocked and her relationship status on there.  I don't look into her behavior and analyze it as much anymore because I realize how quickly their feelings, but it is sad sometimes to watch their behavior.  It's sad that they use facebook, etc. to help self soothe and build up their self-esteem from people who, in most cases, don't give a rat's a$$ about them and don't know the real them.  We still have had no contact since last Friday and I'm still at peace 99% of the time and ok with it.  I have had a feeling in my gut of anxiety.  I usually get it right before she opens up contact again.  Don't know why, but trying to sit with it and figure it out.  I really am in a place where I have, for the most part, separated her "silence" towards me and learned how to lovingly detach and not feel rejected.  It gets easier every time as I now know the "order to the disorder".       

Is this healthy for you to do? 

Is "analyzing" her posts a healthy thing to do?

What is the "price" of an incorrect analysis?


This seems similar to "snooping" in emails and other electronic media... .(I realize I'm stretching the point)... .but I think the healthiest choice for you is to stay as far away from her "crazymaking" as possible. 

When crazymaking stops... test the waters... .see how to proceed.

With the separation there is a good... practical question of how you figure out when crazymaking has ended.

Probably not, but it has helped me to understand the illness quicker (at least that is what I tell myself).

I don't want to stop because it makes me feel like I am losing "any" connection to her and also to see if she is putting stuff out there about me.  I know that part is unhealthy.  I also think she puts stuff out there in hopes that I see it. 


I don't ever let her know I look, so haven't thought about the price.


Why do you say it's similar to snooping in emails if it is "public" knowledge?   I have stopped posting to facebook pretty much altogether.

|iiii This sounds good to me. You are taking less of it personally, and are aware of how it is making you feel as she plays these games.

Putting up with this is a price you have to pay (for now) to be involved with her, and her children.

As I said earlier... .you are getting better at flying gracefully over these hurdles :)

I think that observing to see where she is in her cycles is reasonable, if not downright healthy. The curiosity about her without taking her crap personally.

She's clearly putting stuff up on FB, with the intention of playing manipulative games with you. (Her behavior is NOT healthy)

If you are taking this crap personally, it isn't good for you. Sounds like that isn't an issue for you right now.

The part I bolded... .doesn't sound particularly healthy, but not unreasonable either. She still is your wife and you are trying to make a marriage work with her!

I am and TRYING.  I'm trying to change me for me and be the healthy one.  I am starting to see some anger/hurt  (not sure which one or may be both) surface in me in other ways (almost like getting back at her without her ever knowing) which bothers me and dealing with God about it.  I don't like that part of it, but at least I see it and can deal with it with God and talk to my T about it... .


One thing I want to know from her posts is where she is "mentally" when she makes contact.  I can tell that from how she posts.  When she is emotionally regulated, she rarely ever posts, but when she is needing a "boost", she will post a picture and look/ask for "feedback".  For the most part GK, you see things the way I have been, but I am trying to understand FF's perspective and will talk to my T about it also... .One thing I never do is bring up to her what she posts and never have posted a "response", regardless of what she has said... .That's healthy... .

Sitting with your anger or hurt is very good practice. FYI, anger is a secondary emotion; it comes up as a reaction to a primary emotion. Try to sit with and experience your anger (NOT just react to it like trying to get her back, but do notice those urges too!).

Feeling hurt is a likely candidate for the primary emotion underneath the anger. Sit with it too when it comes up.

|iiii  This all sounds VERY healthy, and looks like very good growth on your part.

And don't worry... .no need to LIKE these feelings and reactions in yourself! I'm reminded of something my meditation teacher described on a retreat. She has conferences with everybody on the retreat and one woman once said to her after meditating and noticing all her own angry, mean, horrible and vindictive thoughts while she was meditating "Bit I used to think I was a nice person!" (I cannot express the tone of hurt and shock expressed here in text form)

     I do think it's accumulated hurt over the last few years, and now that we have been living apart for 6 months, I am seeing it surface in ways that aren't outward anger which I believe is good so that I can deal with them.  I wish we could get into counseling together.  We talked last week about making an appointment.  I have someone I talk to (not a T but very wise about relationships/people and somewhat of a mentor to me) that I completely trust who knows both of us.  I have told him about everything including possible BPD.  He believes that each time we "recycle" that she truly wants to get into counseling and work towards reconciliation of our family, but can't or isn't ready to deal with the hard stuff yet.  He thinks that each time she gets closer, but her emotions (from past, present, and over stuff that she has created) become too painful and has to go off the grid.  He also gave me the same advice as FF to when it comes to finances, be clear about what I can/can't do and move on from that topic.

Hi MaroonLiquid,

I apologize for walking in mid conversation but I saw your thread. I'm happy to hear improvement and I think you sound better  |iiii

--Mutt

 

Maroon,

As long as you can look at that stuff and not take it personally... .I think it should be ok.  I would be deliberate about asking yourself how you react to what is on FB.

Maybe a boundary on yourself that you will only look after some prayer... meditation... .that you are ready.

I agree she is clearly trying to play games... .and as long as you observe... .don't play... .don't take personally... I can see where "knowing" or "understanding" her cycles is useful information.  

The key to my concern is you... .not her... .the price I was asking about was the price to your emotional health... not hers.

As long as you are on top of that... .I'll change my advice to just be very careful... very deliberate about when and if you look.

Because... there is a practical issue here... .you are separated and somehow you need to know when there "might" be an opening to reach out... .to contact... . You also don't want to reach out when she is in the middle of a dysregulation... or black paint session over you.

Just be careful... .

For instance:  I was triggered at the end of MC yesterday.  Was not in good shape to talk last night.   I was LC with wife.  She even asked if I was ok.  It  sounded genuine.  

I needed to take time to experience those feelings... .and understand where those come from.  I think I've got a new boundary on the way... .as a result of this.  If not boundary... .then a definite change in tactics.  Still working it out.

Hang tough man... .I think you are doing great... .!  I really do think this year will be better than last year for you... .and for me.

Thanks Mutt!  I appreciate it.  Really trying to be the strong one and be even keel.


I do my very best to not take what she does personally anymore.  Sometimes, at first, I do and then quickly shift my thought patterns back to the healthy side.  One thing I have never done since separation is react/respond to her posts openly.  I may have internally or to someone I trust, but never have openly on social media or to her.  I won't give her that satisfaction nor will I do it because I don't believe it is the right thing to do or what God would want me to do.  I want to let my actions/inactions speak for themselves.  One thing I do struggle with is knowing when/if to make contact.  What she posted last night could be taken as she is open for me to make contact, or she is baiting me.  The picture and the second chance quote could be her setting things up to tell people we are working things out (again, not trying to look to much into it).  I don't feel like I should always be the first one to make contact as it seems weak.  I forgot I did send a simple text to her Saturday (after Friday's argument) to tell her to have a good day and that I love her.  I didn't expect a response and didn't get one, but knowing that pwBPD read and re-read things repetitively from "nons", I wanted that to be the last thing she has in her mind from me.  As far as this year being better than last, I totally agree.  I want to forget 2014... .:)

I am sitting here with some more anxiety today and trying to figure out why.  I am a little worried that she hasn't tried to contact me yet, but also I don't want to be the first one to.  It is a stalemate and tired of this part of the cycle.  She is stubborn/controlling as crap in these instances at times.  THis is the hardest part for me now in trying to figure out when it is right for me to try to make contact and when it isn't to let her know I won't give in to her control game any longer.

 Hang in there!

You are half-way back in her control game.

Make your decision to contact her be about what YOU, not about HER.

Spend some time with your anxiety and fears... .figure out what you *really* are afraid of, and then look close at it. You may discover it is a paper tiger.

I have a fear that this is "it" and she'll go her own way even though I know differently.

Question... .What do you mean I'm halfway back in her control game?

Err... .that's exactly what I mean!

Her game is to reject you with the silent treatment, expecting you to become uncomfortable, and give her what she wants so you can get out of the doghouse.

You're already feeling very uncomfortable, and worrying about what SHE is thinking, what SHE is going to do, etc. etc.

What actions can YOU take that fit YOUR values, instead of her games?

I see what you mean.  I can take the action of doing stuff for me (working out, etc.) and letting her be.  I'm not as bad with the worry/anxiety as I used to be so that is good. 

One more thing I thought of (after reading maxsterling's post) is that when we got into the disagreement/minor dysregulation last Friday, I think I made it worse by saying that I wouldn't pay some things anymore and she may have taken it as a "so there" kind of thing.  Oh well.  Not going to worry about it!  I am much healthier and my T told me so yesterday and complimented me on it.  Said I was handling my relationship with her and how I act much bette than I used to and that is why there has been progress.  I really worked through some things in his office yesterday. 

 |iiii Yup, that's the way to think about it.

So is there any way/reason to contact her that would be reaching out to her, in a way that feels RIGHT according to your values? (And not like caving in on the financial needyness)

Are you feeling strong enough to be handed a demand to pay for something and handle it well today?

Maybe... .what I remember of the interaction was that it was not a simple... .yes... or no... .  That there was explanation to go along with it.

No issue with giving a clear answer... .that is good... .healthy.

It's the ongoing debate and "making points" about why or why not.

Non's usually loose those "point making" sessions... .

I'm not sure what my value is about contacting her at this moment.  Trying to soul search on this.  I don't want to always be the first to re-engage as that is weak (have been the one to do it 99% of the time in the past), especially when it comes to a controlling person.  And if I don't, that looks like I don't care.  Not sure what to do, but not overly concerned with it either.  


    My wife said she wasn't going to pay a car not until she recouped some of her financial losses from our marriage.    :).  She cracks me up sometimes.  I told her that I wasn't going to pay hers anymore and they will just come get it.  That's when she said she wasn't going to pay for the washer and dryer anymore and I said, "Fine, they can't reposses that."      

    So my wife posted a picture on her Facebook today.  Two days ago it was the photo I have on my Facebook cropped with just her in black and white and I'm photoshopped out and another photo that says everyone deserves a second chance, but not a third.  Today it is a selfie of her, but not centered (she is off to the right) trying to show she is all cold and bundled up.  In the left part of the picture she is showing the present my 5 YO biological son gave to her for Christmas that says Bless Your Heart because of what she went through last year with 2 surgeries (he came up with that all by himself).  Interesting.  Again, not going to worry about it.  She knows where I'm at.

*mod*

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and I do encourage you to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thank you for your understanding... .

The conversation continues here: New Beginning 2... . (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240366.0)