New beginning...

[MaroonLiquid]

  I guess this is when they stop some of their behaviors when they see it doesn't bother you? 

Close... .this is when then will most likely "alter" their patterns of behavior.

You have changed... .likelihood she will not change is very very low.

We can't "force" a specific change... .such as stopping... .

If you are exhibiting healthy behaviors... .that increases likelihood that their change will trend towards healthy... .

I see that already in some areas where she isn't dysregulating like she used to with all our yelling and aggression.  I did raise my voice with her last week, but only slightly, realized it and calmed down.  One thing I need to work more on validating with my wife is her feelings of being used.  I have trouble seeing that one in the midst of it rearing her ugly head, but that has been big her whole life with her dad and ex husband.  I'm not someone who uses her and never have been.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

I'm not someone who uses her and never have been.

Don't bring it up... unless she brings it up.

If she does... .don't validate... .ask more gentle... .open ended questions... .do lots of listening.

You are listening for more emotions to validate... .

But... .the goal is not to validate... .the goal is to collect data... .see where this train of thought goes... .

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm not someone who uses her and never have been.

Don't bring it up... unless she brings it up.

If she does... .don't validate... .ask more gentle... .open ended questions... .do lots of listening.

You are listening for more emotions to validate... .

But... .the goal is not to validate... .the goal is to collect data... .see where this train of thought goes... .

She has accused me of it over the years and brought it up again last week.  She is projecting onto me, but also feels like everyone uses her.

[Grey Kitty]

I guess this is when they stop some of their behaviors when they see it doesn't bother you?

Eventually they stop the behavior because they don't get the reward/result they want. (You are hurt/bothered, and cave in and give in to whatever she was upset about... .in your case, that would be paying for the washer/dryer)

The more consistent you are, the sooner she will notice the lack of results and give up!

[MaroonLiquid]

I guess this is when they stop some of their behaviors when they see it doesn't bother you?

Eventually they stop the behavior because they don't get the reward/result they want. (You are hurt/bothered, and cave in and give in to whatever she was upset about... .in your case, that would be paying for the washer/dryer)

The more consistent you are, the sooner she will notice the lack of results and give up!

I'm doing my best not to cave.  Dealing with some emotion today and don't know why.  I am missing her some, dealing with some fear and just trying to sit here with it and see what else pops up.  A feeling in the pit of my stomach that happens when in the past I would come to the point of "caving".  Not this time.  I'm a lot stronger than I used to be.  Certainly don't want to break down and contact her.  I love her but know that being strong is just as important.

[MaroonLiquid]

As I said yesterday, I see the cycles my wife goes through a lot better now.  Even though she has me blocked, I still check her facebook covertly (not as much anymore though) to help with see what part of the cycle she is in.  This morning I checked and noticed she posted a meme as her profile picture that said, "People deserve a second chance, but not a third", and then immediately replaced it with the same profile picture I have of the two of us on mine except on hers I'm photoshopped out and it's zoomed in on just her in black and white.  How ironic... .   It is actually my favorite picture of us and we talked about it last week.  She even commented that she "felt pretty" when it was taken and told her that she still is.  It is also strange that she puts this one up the week after we have a discussion about her having me blocked and her relationship status on there.  I don't look into her behavior and analyze it as much anymore because I realize how quickly their feelings, but it is sad sometimes to watch their behavior.  It's sad that they use facebook, etc. to help self soothe and build up their self-esteem from people who, in most cases, don't give a rat's a$$ about them and don't know the real them.  We still have had no contact since last Friday and I'm still at peace 99% of the time and ok with it.  I have had a feeling in my gut of anxiety.  I usually get it right before she opens up contact again.  Don't know why, but trying to sit with it and figure it out.  I really am in a place where I have, for the most part, separated her "silence" towards me and learned how to lovingly detach and not feel rejected.  It gets easier every time as I now know the "order to the disorder".       

[formflier]

  Even though she has me blocked, I still check her facebook covertly (not as much anymore though) to help with see what part of the cycle she is in.       

Is this healthy for you to do? 

Is "analyzing" her posts a healthy thing to do?

What is the "price" of an incorrect analysis?


This seems similar to "snooping" in emails and other electronic media... .(I realize I'm stretching the point)... .but I think the healthiest choice for you is to stay as far away from her "crazymaking" as possible. 

When crazymaking stops... test the waters... .see how to proceed.

With the separation there is a good... practical question of how you figure out when crazymaking has ended.

[MaroonLiquid]

  Even though she has me blocked, I still check her facebook covertly (not as much anymore though) to help with see what part of the cycle she is in.       

Is this healthy for you to do?

Is "analyzing" her posts a healthy thing to do?

Probably not, but it has helped me to understand the illness quicker (at least that is what I tell myself).

I don't want to stop because it makes me feel like I am losing "any" connection to her and also to see if she is putting stuff out there about me.  I know that part is unhealthy.  I also think she puts stuff out there in hopes that I see it. 

What is the "price" of an incorrect analysis?

I don't ever let her know I look, so haven't thought about the price.

This seems similar to "snooping" in emails and other electronic media... .(I realize I'm stretching the point)... .but I think the healthiest choice for you is to stay as far away from her "crazymaking" as possible. 

When crazymaking stops... test the waters... .see how to proceed.

With the separation there is a good... practical question of how you figure out when crazymaking has ended.

Why do you say it's similar to snooping in emails if it is "public" knowledge?   I have stopped posting to facebook pretty much altogether.

[Grey Kitty]

We still have had no contact since last Friday and I'm still at peace 99% of the time and ok with it.  I have had a feeling in my gut of anxiety.  I usually get it right before she opens up contact again.  :)on't know why, but trying to sit with it and figure it out.  I really am in a place where I have, for the most part, separated her "silence" towards me and learned how to lovingly detach and not feel rejected.  It gets easier every time as I now know the "order to the disorder".

This sounds good to me. You are taking less of it personally, and are aware of how it is making you feel as she plays these games.

Putting up with this is a price you have to pay (for now) to be involved with her, and her children.

As I said earlier... .you are getting better at flying gracefully over these hurdles

[Grey Kitty]

  Even though she has me blocked, I still check her facebook covertly (not as much anymore though) to help with see what part of the cycle she is in.       

Is this healthy for you to do?

Is "analyzing" her posts a healthy thing to do?

Probably not, but it has helped me to understand the illness quicker (at least that is what I tell myself).

I don't want to stop because it makes me feel like I am losing "any" connection to her and also to see if she is putting stuff out there about me.  I know that part is unhealthy.  I also think she puts stuff out there in hopes that I see it. 

I think that observing to see where she is in her cycles is reasonable, if not downright healthy. The curiosity about her without taking her crap personally.

She's clearly putting stuff up on FB, with the intention of playing manipulative games with you. (Her behavior is NOT healthy)

If you are taking this crap personally, it isn't good for you. Sounds like that isn't an issue for you right now.

The part I bolded... .doesn't sound particularly healthy, but not unreasonable either. She still is your wife and you are trying to make a marriage work with her!

[MaroonLiquid]

We still have had no contact since last Friday and I'm still at peace 99% of the time and ok with it.  I have had a feeling in my gut of anxiety.  I usually get it right before she opens up contact again.  :)on't know why, but trying to sit with it and figure it out.  I really am in a place where I have, for the most part, separated her "silence" towards me and learned how to lovingly detach and not feel rejected.  It gets easier every time as I now know the "order to the disorder".

This sounds good to me. You are taking less of it personally, and are aware of how it is making you feel as she plays these games.

Putting up with this is a price you have to pay (for now) to be involved with her, and her children.

As I said earlier... .you are getting better at flying gracefully over these hurdles

I am and TRYING.  I'm trying to change me for me and be the healthy one.  I am starting to see some anger/hurt  (not sure which one or may be both) surface in me in other ways (almost like getting back at her without her ever knowing) which bothers me and dealing with God about it.  I don't like that part of it, but at least I see it and can deal with it with God and talk to my T about it... .

  Even though she has me blocked, I still check her facebook covertly (not as much anymore though) to help with see what part of the cycle she is in.      

Is this healthy for you to do?

Is "analyzing" her posts a healthy thing to do?

Probably not, but it has helped me to understand the illness quicker (at least that is what I tell myself).

I don't want to stop because it makes me feel like I am losing "any" connection to her and also to see if she is putting stuff out there about me.  I know that part is unhealthy.  I also think she puts stuff out there in hopes that I see it.  

I think that observing to see where she is in her cycles is reasonable, if not downright healthy. The curiosity about her without taking her crap personally.

She's clearly putting stuff up on FB, with the intention of playing manipulative games with you. (Her behavior is NOT healthy)

If you are taking this crap personally, it isn't good for you. Sounds like that isn't an issue for you right now.

The part I bolded... .doesn't sound particularly healthy, but not unreasonable either. She still is your wife and you are trying to make a marriage work with her!

One thing I want to know from her posts is where she is "mentally" when she makes contact.  I can tell that from how she posts.  When she is emotionally regulated, she rarely ever posts, but when she is needing a "boost", she will post a picture and look/ask for "feedback".  For the most part GK, you see things the way I have been, but I am trying to understand FF's perspective and will talk to my T about it also... .One thing I never do is bring up to her what she posts and never have posted a "response", regardless of what she has said... .That's healthy... .

[Grey Kitty]

I am and TRYING.  I'm trying to change me for me and be the healthy one.  I am starting to see some anger/hurt  (not sure which one or may be both) surface in me in other ways (almost like getting back at her without her ever knowing) which bothers me and dealing with God about it.  I don't like that part of it, but at least I see it and can deal with it with God and talk to my T about it... .

Sitting with your anger or hurt is very good practice. FYI, anger is a secondary emotion; it comes up as a reaction to a primary emotion. Try to sit with and experience your anger (NOT just react to it like trying to get her back, but do notice those urges too!).

Feeling hurt is a likely candidate for the primary emotion underneath the anger. Sit with it too when it comes up.

 This all sounds VERY healthy, and looks like very good growth on your part.

And don't worry... .no need to LIKE these feelings and reactions in yourself! I'm reminded of something my meditation teacher described on a retreat. She has conferences with everybody on the retreat and one woman once said to her after meditating and noticing all her own angry, mean, horrible and vindictive thoughts while she was meditating "Bit I used to think I was a nice person!" (I cannot express the tone of hurt and shock expressed here in text form)

[MaroonLiquid]

I am and TRYING.  I'm trying to change me for me and be the healthy one.  I am starting to see some anger/hurt  (not sure which one or may be both) surface in me in other ways (almost like getting back at her without her ever knowing) which bothers me and dealing with God about it.  I don't like that part of it, but at least I see it and can deal with it with God and talk to my T about it... .

Sitting with your anger or hurt is very good practice. FYI, anger is a secondary emotion; it comes up as a reaction to a primary emotion. Try to sit with and experience your anger (NOT just react to it like trying to get her back, but do notice those urges too!).

Feeling hurt is a likely candidate for the primary emotion underneath the anger. Sit with it too when it comes up.

 This all sounds VERY healthy, and looks like very good growth on your part.

And don't worry... .no need to LIKE these feelings and reactions in yourself! I'm reminded of something my meditation teacher described on a retreat. She has conferences with everybody on the retreat and one woman once said to her after meditating and noticing all her own angry, mean, horrible and vindictive thoughts while she was meditating "Bit I used to think I was a nice person!" (I cannot express the tone of hurt and shock expressed here in text form)

     I do think it's accumulated hurt over the last few years, and now that we have been living apart for 6 months, I am seeing it surface in ways that aren't outward anger which I believe is good so that I can deal with them.  I wish we could get into counseling together.  We talked last week about making an appointment.  I have someone I talk to (not a T but very wise about relationships/people and somewhat of a mentor to me) that I completely trust who knows both of us.  I have told him about everything including possible BPD.  He believes that each time we "recycle" that she truly wants to get into counseling and work towards reconciliation of our family, but can't or isn't ready to deal with the hard stuff yet.  He thinks that each time she gets closer, but her emotions (from past, present, and over stuff that she has created) become too painful and has to go off the grid.  He also gave me the same advice as FF to when it comes to finances, be clear about what I can/can't do and move on from that topic.

[Mutt]

Hi MaroonLiquid,

I apologize for walking in mid conversation but I saw your thread. I'm happy to hear improvement and I think you sound better  

--Mutt

[formflier]

 

Maroon,

As long as you can look at that stuff and not take it personally... .I think it should be ok.  I would be deliberate about asking yourself how you react to what is on FB.

Maybe a boundary on yourself that you will only look after some prayer... meditation... .that you are ready.

I agree she is clearly trying to play games... .and as long as you observe... .don't play... .don't take personally... I can see where "knowing" or "understanding" her cycles is useful information.  

The key to my concern is you... .not her... .the price I was asking about was the price to your emotional health... not hers.

As long as you are on top of that... .I'll change my advice to just be very careful... very deliberate about when and if you look.

Because... there is a practical issue here... .you are separated and somehow you need to know when there "might" be an opening to reach out... .to contact... . You also don't want to reach out when she is in the middle of a dysregulation... or black paint session over you.

Just be careful... .

For instance:  I was triggered at the end of MC yesterday.  Was not in good shape to talk last night.   I was LC with wife.  She even asked if I was ok.  It  sounded genuine.  

I needed to take time to experience those feelings... .and understand where those come from.  I think I've got a new boundary on the way... .as a result of this.  If not boundary... .then a definite change in tactics.  Still working it out.

Hang tough man... .I think you are doing great... .!  I really do think this year will be better than last year for you... .and for me.

[MaroonLiquid]

Hi MaroonLiquid,

I apologize for walking in mid conversation but I saw your thread. I'm happy to hear improvement and I think you sound better 

--Mutt

Thanks Mutt!  I appreciate it.  Really trying to be the strong one and be even keel.

Maroon,

As long as you can look at that stuff and not take it personally... .I think it should be ok.  I would be deliberate about asking yourself how you react to what is on FB.

Maybe a boundary on yourself that you will only look after some prayer... meditation... .that you are ready.

I agree she is clearly trying to play games... .and as long as you observe... .don't play... .don't take personally... I can see where "knowing" or "understanding" her cycles is useful information. 

The key to my concern is you... .not her... .the price I was asking about was the price to your emotional health... not hers.

As long as you are on top of that... .I'll change my advice to just be very careful... very deliberate about when and if you look.

Because... there is a practical issue here... .you are separated and somehow you need to know when there "might" be an opening to reach out... .to contact... .  You also don't want to reach out when she is in the middle of a dysregulation... or black paint session over you.

Just be careful... .

For instance:  I was triggered at the end of MC yesterday.  Was not in good shape to talk last night.   I was LC with wife.  She even asked if I was ok.  It  sounded genuine. 

I needed to take time to experience those feelings... .and understand where those come from.  I think I've got a new boundary on the way... .as a result of this.  If not boundary... .then a definite change in tactics.  Still working it out.

Hang tough man... .I think you are doing great... .!  I really do think this year will be better than last year for you... .and for me.

I do my very best to not take what she does personally anymore.  Sometimes, at first, I do and then quickly shift my thought patterns back to the healthy side.  One thing I have never done since separation is react/respond to her posts openly.  I may have internally or to someone I trust, but never have openly on social media or to her.  I won't give her that satisfaction nor will I do it because I don't believe it is the right thing to do or what God would want me to do.  I want to let my actions/inactions speak for themselves.  One thing I do struggle with is knowing when/if to make contact.  What she posted last night could be taken as she is open for me to make contact, or she is baiting me.  The picture and the second chance quote could be her setting things up to tell people we are working things out (again, not trying to look to much into it).  I don't feel like I should always be the first one to make contact as it seems weak.  I forgot I did send a simple text to her Saturday (after Friday's argument) to tell her to have a good day and that I love her.  I didn't expect a response and didn't get one, but knowing that pwBPD read and re-read things repetitively from "nons", I wanted that to be the last thing she has in her mind from me.  As far as this year being better than last, I totally agree.  I want to forget 2014... .

[MaroonLiquid]

I am sitting here with some more anxiety today and trying to figure out why.  I am a little worried that she hasn't tried to contact me yet, but also I don't want to be the first one to.  It is a stalemate and tired of this part of the cycle.  She is stubborn/controlling as crap in these instances at times.  THis is the hardest part for me now in trying to figure out when it is right for me to try to make contact and when it isn't to let her know I won't give in to her control game any longer.

[Grey Kitty]

I am sitting here with some more anxiety today and trying to figure out why.  I am a little worried that she hasn't tried to contact me yet, but also I don't want to be the first one to.  It is a stalemate and tired of this part of the cycle.  She is stubborn/controlling as crap in these instances at times.  THis is the hardest part for me now in trying to figure out when it is right for me to try to make contact and when it isn't to let her know I won't give in to her control game any longer.

 Hang in there!

You are half-way back in her control game.

Make your decision to contact her be about what YOU, not about HER.

Spend some time with your anxiety and fears... .figure out what you *really* are afraid of, and then look close at it. You may discover it is a paper tiger.

[MaroonLiquid]

I am sitting here with some more anxiety today and trying to figure out why.  I am a little worried that she hasn't tried to contact me yet, but also I don't want to be the first one to.  It is a stalemate and tired of this part of the cycle.  She is stubborn/controlling as crap in these instances at times.  THis is the hardest part for me now in trying to figure out when it is right for me to try to make contact and when it isn't to let her know I won't give in to her control game any longer.

 Hang in there!

You are half-way back in her control game.

Make your decision to contact her be about what YOU, not about HER.

Spend some time with your anxiety and fears... .figure out what you *really* are afraid of, and then look close at it. You may discover it is a paper tiger.

I have a fear that this is "it" and she'll go her own way even though I know differently.

Question... .What do you mean I'm halfway back in her control game?

[Grey Kitty]

I have a fear that this is "it" and she'll go her own way even though I know differently.

Question... .What do you mean I'm halfway back in her control game?

Err... .that's exactly what I mean!

Her game is to reject you with the silent treatment, expecting you to become uncomfortable, and give her what she wants so you can get out of the doghouse.

You're already feeling very uncomfortable, and worrying about what SHE is thinking, what SHE is going to do, etc. etc.

What actions can YOU take that fit YOUR values, instead of her games?

[MaroonLiquid]

I have a fear that this is "it" and she'll go her own way even though I know differently.

Question... .What do you mean I'm halfway back in her control game?

Err... .that's exactly what I mean!

Her game is to reject you with the silent treatment, expecting you to become uncomfortable, and give her what she wants so you can get out of the doghouse.

You're already feeling very uncomfortable, and worrying about what SHE is thinking, what SHE is going to do, etc. etc.

What actions can YOU take that fit YOUR values, instead of her games?

I see what you mean.  I can take the action of doing stuff for me (working out, etc.) and letting her be.  I'm not as bad with the worry/anxiety as I used to be so that is good. 

One more thing I thought of (after reading maxsterling's post) is that when we got into the disagreement/minor dysregulation last Friday, I think I made it worse by saying that I wouldn't pay some things anymore and she may have taken it as a "so there" kind of thing.  Oh well.  Not going to worry about it!  I am much healthier and my T told me so yesterday and complimented me on it.  Said I was handling my relationship with her and how I act much bette than I used to and that is why there has been progress.  I really worked through some things in his office yesterday. 

[Grey Kitty]

  Yup, that's the way to think about it.

So is there any way/reason to contact her that would be reaching out to her, in a way that feels RIGHT according to your values? (And not like caving in on the financial needyness)

Are you feeling strong enough to be handed a demand to pay for something and handle it well today?

[formflier]

I think I made it worse by saying that I wouldn't pay some things anymore and she may have taken it as a "so there" kind of thing.  Oh well.  

Maybe... .what I remember of the interaction was that it was not a simple... .yes... or no... .  That there was explanation to go along with it.

No issue with giving a clear answer... .that is good... .healthy.

It's the ongoing debate and "making points" about why or why not.

Non's usually loose those "point making" sessions... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Yup, that's the way to think about it.

So is there any way/reason to contact her that would be reaching out to her, in a way that feels RIGHT according to your values? (And not like caving in on the financial needyness)

Are you feeling strong enough to be handed a demand to pay for something and handle it well today?

I'm not sure what my value is about contacting her at this moment.  Trying to soul search on this.  I don't want to always be the first to re-engage as that is weak (have been the one to do it 99% of the time in the past), especially when it comes to a controlling person.  And if I don't, that looks like I don't care.  Not sure what to do, but not overly concerned with it either.  

I think I made it worse by saying that I wouldn't pay some things anymore and she may have taken it as a "so there" kind of thing.  Oh well.  

Maybe... .what I remember of the interaction was that it was not a simple... .yes... or no... . That there was explanation to go along with it.

No issue with giving a clear answer... .that is good... .healthy.

It's the ongoing debate and "making points" about why or why not.

Non's usually loose those "point making" sessions... .

    My wife said she wasn't going to pay a car not until she recouped some of her financial losses from our marriage.    .  She cracks me up sometimes.  I told her that I wasn't going to pay hers anymore and they will just come get it.  That's when she said she wasn't going to pay for the washer and dryer anymore and I said, "Fine, they can't reposses that."      

    So my wife posted a picture on her Facebook today.  Two days ago it was the photo I have on my Facebook cropped with just her in black and white and I'm photoshopped out and another photo that says everyone deserves a second chance, but not a third.  Today it is a selfie of her, but not centered (she is off to the right) trying to show she is all cold and bundled up.  In the left part of the picture she is showing the present my 5 YO biological son gave to her for Christmas that says Bless Your Heart because of what she went through last year with 2 surgeries (he came up with that all by himself).  Interesting.  Again, not going to worry about it.  She knows where I'm at.

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and I do encourage you to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thank you for your understanding... .

The conversation continues here: New Beginning 2... .