BPDFamily.com

Any suggestions how to counter my wife's malicious accusations that if I can't have a relationship with her I am going to kill myself and my kids?

She told me she has a witness statement from someone I apparently said this to.  If she has any such statement it it likely from her mother or sister.   She made this allegation to the police after her release from custody, when she had been cautioned for assaulting me.  I was away with the kids, and the police did a welfare check, and were apologetic to me. 

I am wondering what false and malicious allegations lie ahead.

I currently record everything when I'm in her presence.  I work in the mental health field, and can provide numerous colleagues for character assessments, and opinions of my mental state.

There are a couple of things you can do.

On the expensive side, you can depose her. Anything she says will be sworn testimony, and when cross-examined, if it comes out that she is lying, it's perjury. In some courts, perjury is a crime, but in family court, I think it mainly serves to undermine your spouses credibility and can be used to tip off her L that he needs to rein in his client. Ls really don't want to be blatantly duped in front of the judge -- it undermines their reputation.

My combined deposition (we were both deposed) ended up being $1200 for lawyer fees, and $700 for the transcription. I put together the binder of emails for my L and that saved me a lot of money. My L estimated I saved myself at least $1500, but I also had a lot of email documentation for her to go through.

Also, depositions flush out a lot of things prior to being in court, so you and your L can strategize about how you'll deal with any other false allegations. Psychologically, the deposition was a turning point for me. My L was so good, and I finally saw how clear it was that N/BPDx's issues could be seen by other people. He's a former trial lawyer, so I thought he was going to crush me. The opposite happened because BPD is based on disordered thinking.

Also a bit on the expensive side is to have both of you undergo psychiatric evaluations. Better to have the MMPI-2 if that's a common tool used for psychiatric evaluations where you live. My ex went through a psychiatric evaluation that was basically 3-4 sessions with a forensic psychiatrist, and that evaluation did not include an objective instrument. You have to go through a specific psychiatrist to find someone with the skills to do the MMPI-2. Many forensic psychiatrists, I guess out of concern that they will be sued, deliver very cagey, wishy washy reports that don't come right out and make a diagnosis. However, in my case, the insight into N/BPDx's behavior was equally if not more damaging than a diagnosis. One sentence was something like, "It cannot be ruled out that Mr. N/BPDx has a personality disorder and further evaluation and treatment is recommended."

The important thing is that your L addresses the false allegations swiftly and firmly. "Your honor, Ms. SES is making a false allegation against my client, and is perjuring herself in order to take attention away from her own struggles and hospitalization for suicidal ideation. These are the dates she was hospitalized, and just recently it was recommended that she commit herself again."

Swift, to the point, and then pivot to put it back on her. If your L points out every false allegation, the judge will understand that there is a pattern here.

in addition to livednlearned's excellent suggestions - an approach (deposition) that has been used by others on this board to great effect - please remember that nothing's true just because your wife says it. this is a theme of mine and maybe i'm just talking to myself, but people who have been in our position (on the receiving end of BPDical behavior) do panic (i did, i was terrorized for a while).




you know perfectly well that you never said any such thing. if she tries to bring others into her scheme she's just multiplying the opportunities for her own disaster, because a witness will have to be named and that person could be deposed too (i think). you also have a record of her false assertions and the sympathy of the police. you could scarcely be in a stronger position. but do make sure your L makes a deal of it.


there you go.

Thanks both... .  Lawyer wrote to my wife's lawyers to express her concern re the malicious allegations.   I have been worrying about it, and it has caused some sleepless nights...    But I probably need to park it, and see what she does next.  There will be a hearing regarding the injunction I took out.   It'll be interesting to see what she tries to do to defend herself,  esp as she now has a criminal record for domestic violence.

I have also prepared my lawyer re my wife's boyfriend,  who describes himself as a frequent user of hard drugs on his dating website... .I hope I can find a way to reduce the risk he poses to my kids.  it fills me with horror that she might allow him contact with my kids.  What an exceedingly poor choice she made.

SES, have you seen this? it's short, and your L may have time to read it:

bpdfamily.com About Personality Disorders and the Family Courts (https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/pamp-eddy.pdf)

Thanks... .I'll forward that on to her. It is really concise, but very clear.   

My ex came in with a statement from her neighbor, my lawyer objected and court agreed and we all moved on.  He explained to me that he can't cross-examine a piece of paper.

Can you get a screenshot of his dating profile? It might not carry water legally to kitchen sink her with something like this, but a lawyer can always mention it, and a judge can always sustain or overrule. The judge won't mention it as a factor in the ruling because he/she can't, however it may still play a role in the theater of it all.

Be prepared for more false allegations -- but also be prepared that you may eventually not feel so much stress about them. By the time my custody battle was winding down, I was able to see everything in terms of how it would help me in my legal strategy. I was able to see my case the way everyone else saw it, instead of being so scared of N/BPDx. I look back now and can't believe how intimidated I was.   I thought he was so charming and smarter than everyone else, and could manipulate the socks off the judge. But it didn't play out that way at all.

Livednlearned - thanks!

I have sent my lawyer screenshots of his dating website.   I have let children services know about my concerns,  and that i have an injunction against her.    I'm waiting to hear from lawyer if there is anything that can be done legally to reduce the risks to my kids.   I am deeply worried about my kids having contact with him, if they haven't already.   

Fortunately the injunction is helpful... .No more baiting at home.    She does come and sit and stand near me sometimes, although we cannot talk.   I still feel like a hermit, as she occupies our living areas, and I feel inclined to avoid her. 

Well... .Apparently I am going to kill myself and my kids... .But she still went away for three days... .Leaving me with the kuds, and texting me wishing me a good time with them... .Plus she is telling the kids that she loves me... .a bit confusing for them... .

I can't wait for this to end

I admit this did make me chuckle, it is just ludacris isn't it?... .but now you have something to counter the false allegation, if you are such a threat to yourself and your children then why did she leave them with you? This is why so many of us say document... .document... .document  :)  She will continue this kind of stuff and if she is anything like my SO's uBPDxw she will like above continue to make herself not credible by her own actions. 

One thing I've seen both with my alcoholic ex-husband and with my SO's ex-wife is once the co-dependent relationship is over and we are no longer there to "manage" their dysfunction they spiral down to their natural conclusion.

My ex had his 3rd DUI and lost his job following our divorce and finally hit his rock bottom.  (He got help, stopped drinking and has been sober for the last 3 years)

My SO's uBPDxw was evicted 3 times and now lives in a hotel because no one will rent to her, she has two felony charges against her for a large bad check, she has a civil suit against her with someone else, she has alienated her daughters and her family, and has lost 2 of the 3 friends that she had... .

Which brings me back to document... .document... .document your wife will literally give you what you need in court.

I know the waiting for all of this to be over is miserable but hang in there 

Panda39

you kept that text?

That's the blessing and the curse of their tendency to have feelings = facts.

Feelings change, but facts don't.

Panda and Maxen... .

Yes, i have her text... .I have audio recorded every interaction with her since November.    I've kept every text and whatsapp message for the last 18 months... .

It consumes so much energy... .But there is light ahead... .good times ahead... .New year... .new life

Thanks for being there

Livednlearned... .  I like that... .Makes sense!   Yes, her feelings can change rapidly.    The facts of the case stand... .I have to go back to court regarding the injunction... .And if it will continue... .Her allegations will be aired there... .As will the facts... .offered admission... .Assault charge... .And the above... .She often fails to plan forward... .A bit like not thinking through the outcome of her affair... .

So, she can't talk to me due to the injunction.   Monday morning she went to see her boyfriend for three days.  Before she left she walked around the house in the expensive underwear I bought her, singing pharrell's I'm so happy.  Yesterday she sent texts regarding our house,sale (one thing she can contact me about) and it was a heap of circular texts regarding the price, which agent and even a suggestion not to sell.  This morning she is going to her boyfriends again, and she showed me a riding crop she is taking with her.  

This morning has gotten under my skin... . I had been doing quite well this week, despite her conduct.  This morning just pushed me a bit further... .Annoyance,  hurt, lots of questions in my mind... .

I wonder if she has psychopathic traits

I think it's hard for us to understand the pathological need that BPD sufferers have for attention. Any kind of engagement -- including negative -- is better than no engagement. When there is no engagement, she cannot generate the level of emotional drama that makes her feel something. Not being acknowledged or recognized can trigger this intolerable feeling that she has no self. Your wife has a severe mental illness, she is not in the world in the same way as you and I are. You are a source of something for her, like a child might feel about a parent, but it gets confusing for us because they are adults. The childlike behaviors are emotional and psychological, but they have the cognition and bodies of adults. So unbelievably confusing and painful for us to interact with them. 

It probably feels psychopathic because your feelings are particularly vivid and raw right now, and your needs for empathy and understanding higher than usual. Meanwhile, and she cannot respond in the way a healthy person, with compassion and empathy would respond toward you. The injunction probably makes her feel that you are rejecting/abandoning her (without her being able to reflect on why), so she is trying to reverse the abandonment feelings, if not the actual abandonment. It's an incredibly powerful defense mechanism, almost like it's driven by survival.

You are in a truly horrific situation, SES. I cannot imagine living in my own home with my ex while there is an injunction in place, and having red flags waved in my face. No one should ever have to experience what you are living through. Are you able to do things to take care of yourself? Even small things can help.

Livednlearned,

Thanks for your understanding and empathy.  You can tell I'm still struggling with it all.  We haven't even been to court yet!  Or sold our house.  These things are likely to be incendiary.    

It's hard seeing the woman I loved for fourteen years doing these things.  It is very adolescent behaviour.   There is no compassion or empathy.  She doesn't care about the impact of her behaviour.   I can only control my actions.  Yes, there is a pattern of her trying to engage,  and the only way to do that recently is in a bad way. She has never been this bad before... .It's off the scale.

I am concerned that she is avoiding responding to the courts regarding the divorce,  and not responding to lawyer about our post divorce agreement.

 

I am trying to do things to keep myself afloat. Seeing friends and family. Going away with the kids when I can.

This example may not work for you but take the concept and shape it into whatever works for you... .  Imagine you have an invisible umbrella over you that extends all the way to the floor (Maxwell Smart had the Cone of Silence) that everything she says and does to rile, irritate, anger or sabotage you just bounces off.  Silly mental image but it can help you stay focused, emotionally calm and protect you from rash responses.

That's one way to not allow her to trigger you to sabotage yourself at some point by responding poorly either in the house, at the cars, in court, in sessions, wherever.  Sadly, you loved someone who (without long term intensive therapy which is unlikely to happen) does not love you back and has instead morphed herself to view you as The Enemy, Mr Evil Personified.  Some factoids:

For her, her emotions, moods and perceptions equal Fact.  Not true but as far as she is concerned it is true.

Accept that and strategize accordingly.

No matter how logical you are or how much sense you make, you can't reason with someone who refuses to listen to you.  (BPD is a disorder most evident in close relationships.  The closer you are, the greater the extremes.  At that start you were idolized, at the end you are demonized.  Another reason that she's not listening to you is that anything you say will be distorted by her perceptions of the ending relationship.  She can't or won't overcome all the emotional baggage, not without professional or experienced emotionally-neutral guidance.)

Accept that and strategize accordingly.

You may be inclined to hide some of her misbehaviors (a normal inclination under normal circumstances) that would help the court decide how to handle the case.  Don't.  Be aware she is throwing you and the relationship under the bus.  You can't afford to be nice when the other is likely doing anything and everything regardless whether it is right or ethical.  On the other hand, don't be perceived as an angry man, not when she's likely going to posture as a victim.

Accept that and strategize accordingly.

This is likely a very valid concern.

It helps to have leverage so you can move things forward. I don't know enough about your situation to know what leverage you might have. I didn't have much in my divorce, so I had to erect extremely strong boundaries. I had to keep them in place even when they caused me to suffer, because if they weren't there, the long-term suffering for me and S13 was going to be worse.

The difficult behaviors in the marriage are going to continue in the divorce process, so you'll have to be inventive here and get your L to help you find proactive solutions. That might mean making an offer with a deadline. If she refuses or doesn't show, you go straight to court. Most lawyers don't want to go to court, at least here in the US. They pride themselves on being able to mediate or settle out of court. There will be a bit of theater while offers go back and forth. All you need to know is that the other L, if he or she is a regular reasonable L, will start to put some pressure on your wife if she keeps letting good offers go. I imagine this applies even more so in the UK where it is overall less litigious.

Whatever happens, make sure your L has a backbone. I even let my T and my L talk on the phone right before mediation. T told L, "LnL is going to try and give everything away to make the conflict blow over. Don't let her do that." When I think of how much I was willing to give to N/BPDx it makes me realize how beaten down I was. 

Make sure your lawyer is on the same page: no continuances. No extensions. Your wife is like a child, and she sees you like a punitive parent. That's her deal. Your deal, then, is that you have to have very strong, firm, steady boundaries. The more strong, firm, and steady, the less stress in the long-term for you.

You have to take extra good care of yourself right now -- the stress is going to be intense for a while since you're both in the same house. Get exercise every day. Make that or something else that keeps you manage the cortisol a priority if you can.  

Foreverdad and livednlearned ... .Thanks... .I'll try the mental imagery when I get home later.  It does feel precarious at gone, with her willing to engage and provoke.   Yes, I'll see what, if any, leverage there is... .She seems happy with the status quo.   Thanks also for reminding me that she is throwing me under a bus... .She is, and asking the driver to reverse over me afterwards... .She is lying,  smearing,  deceiving,  destroying in a cruel and unethical way... .Reminding me not to hide her behaviours is useful... .I'm keeping logs, but for whatever reason I've missed some things and haven't included enough detail of others.   I don't know why... .Perhaps Just out of habit of covering up for her... .Or desensitisation?   She is has no hesitation in doing anything... .And more is on its way.   I need to prepare to fight my corner... .

She's thoroughly vile and cruel... .  I'm sure her allegations that I'm going to kill myself and our kids is just the tip of the iceberg... .Even without being able to speak to me she remains provocative... .Pushing the boundaries.  Fourteen years... .it comes to this... .I know that lots of people face the same...    

She's very, very ill. Not only is her thinking disordered, but she has no stable sense of who she is. This idea that BPD sufferers need others to provide a sense of self -- imagine how shaky and unstable that would be. You, who represent part of her identity, is constantly behaving and acting in ways she cannot control. She feels what she feels in response to these parts of her -- you, her affair partner, her kids -- that are outside of her. She tries, and fails, to stabilize her identity through others. And the identity you represent shifts. She is enraged at you for not giving her what she needs, but also wants desperately for you to give her what she needs. Meanwhile, you are your own separate person, with your own feelings, even though this is nearly impossible for her to imagine. In her mind, she does not have a stable sense of self, so how could you?

I think what is so psychologically difficult for you, or for any of us when we are still in the relationship but trying to divorce, is that you are conditioned to help and rescue. This makes us feel good. Some of us depend on that feeling in order to feel good about ourselves. So learning to rewire that impulse is not strictly rational, it's about changing our own sense of self. Who are we if we aren't kind and helpful? I had to grab onto the advice that others gave me, and trust that they knew what they were talking about. My own line of thinking was not working, and never had. You have one foot in the new world, and one in the old. Listen to the voice that is trying to protect you and take care of you. It's probably not a voice you've listened to much, but going forward, you need to let that voice guide you, even if it's a faint whisper.

Thanks ForeverDad and Livednlearned... .

I need to remember she is throwing me under the bus.  I recently got a letter from her lawyer; and it felt like being thrown under a bus.  I need to make sure I'm not being too nice/caring/understanding. 

Well... .I feel a bit hung out to dry... .

Had the return injunction hearing... .I had 12 hrs notice... .No lawyer... .She had a lawyer, and lots of documents... .Funny how I am portrayed as a controlling suicidal psychopath... .  Fighting would have been costly... .  In exchange we both agreed undertakings with the court... .only texts re kids and house... .Nothing else, no talking .

At least it's the outcome I was after.

I knew it would be bad... .Never that bad... .I've never done the things she says... .only ever loved her... .Even the judge appeared taken in, and wasn't interested in audio or video recordings. 

Well... .path of least resistance... .Next stop, sell house and agree childcare... .Not sure how that will go... .From today... .I think it'll be hard and far from straightforward... .

A step closer to escaping... .A reminder how devious and convincing she can be... .

Hi SES 


He might have been... .for pwBPD feelings=facts so the pwBPD can be very convincing because they really beleive what they are saying.  Even though you and I know it's all lies. 

I can't remember if any of us has recommended Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy, Randi Kreger but I really suggest you read it if you haven't. 

Just hang in there and just keep giving her the rope.  The more times you appear in front of this judge the more he will see.

What documents does she have? Were any of them relevant?

I'm not sure what the equivalent of your hearing would exist where I live. But did your L explain why the judge would not listen to the audio/video recordings? If I remember your case correctly, that is a lot of evidence you were planning to disprove her testimony. Does this mean no audio/video recordings in future hearings, or was it simply for this one?

Thanks... .  Her documents = her statement of her events.  The recordings seemed of no interest to the judge. 

I didn't have a lawyer... .not enough notice.  I found out at 6pm, the hearing was 10am the following day.  No chance...  She, on the other hand was present with a lawyer,  and a lengthy prepared submission which portrayed me as an evil, controlling,  abusive, suicidal man.  Wonderful... . Amazing how someone can make death threats etc, etc... but turn it on its head.  

I'm disappointed. But it's one less thing to focus on I suppose.   We gave both given undertakings to the court that we will only communicate via text message re kids.  Probably a good thing, and what I wanted anyway.  A sharp reminder of how things will be portrayed in the future.   She had the affair, ended our family as we know it... .First it was a request for an open relationship,  then it was because I was too stable, then the vitreol and venom.   Anything and everything... . What an ending...   Still can't quite believe it!

Was this final or just establishing the ground rules going forward?  Even so, I would think that seeking consultations with some family attorneys or solicitors could give you an idea whether the outcome was good, okay or bad.  What I'm referring to is whether the court's order found you 'guilty' of things you didn't do, that she could use against you later when custody and parenting is decided/negotiated.

I'm hoping it was just an order setting the ground rules for contact only and not finding fault with you.  Why?  It could negatively affect your initial temporary orders for custody and parenting schedule.  Temporary orders often morph into final orders because it is an uphill struggle to fix them and judges get the idea that if it has 'worked' for months then why fix what works?

Foreverdad,  thanks

No admission of guilt on either side, just groundrules for cohabitation whilst we sell house.  For me it's good, it's what I had in the injunction... .Only communicate via text message about kids and house.   So good in a way...   After what I have been exposed to, I didn't feel it reflected her behaviour... .But this isn't the battle to win... .hopefully childcare and the equity will be resolved quickly.   But, I will fight over both.  Hopefully won't need court. 

It's been a hard journey... .Six months post her affair... .Still in same house.  Torture to say the least.  I haven't been controlling or manipulative as she would present me... .in fact too laid back, too nice,  too accommodating ,  too forgiving... .A friend reminded my to focus on my goal... .Getting away from her in tact... .with fair access to my kids.  At the end of the day, she has picked up a criminal record... .Which isn't good for her job.

i guess it happened, but that doesn't sound kosher. i hope you do have a chance to talk with a solicitor, and s/he (if not a judge) may be interested in your ddocumentation.

again, i'm so sorry for your experiences. living together post affair must really have been as you say torture.

Maxen

Thanks... .No, there is a bitter taste in my mouth.  L says it's over... .now focus on kids and house... . In a way, path of least resistance... .So easier... .A battle was unlikely to leave me a 'winner'.  A bitter taste... .I was amazed to see how very engaging,  cheerful,  and happy she seemed in court.  Me... .I felt stressed and miserable... . 

I wasn't prepared for what came... .what allegations were made.  I've talked about it with friends /colleagues... .I still can't believe I am portrayed in this way following months of death threats and abuse. I have to get over my sense of injustice.

She played her cards, and now she has to remain consistent. Being consistent is very difficult for people with BPD, and that is often their downfall.

My ex also brought a lot of documentation to court. They were mostly emails he wrote to me, in which he tells me all the different ways I am evil. He even cross-examined me (fun) and had me read his emails. In his mind, his emails, his thoughts, were "evidence" that I was a monster.

It's a very awful feeling to hear these things said in a court room with people listening and watching and judging. The most important thing you can do is take note of her allegations and collect documentation that refutes it. Find out from a lawyer if the court will allow your recordings as evidence, or if there is a way to have them transcribed (they may have to meet legal standards and be done by a forensic IT person) and entered as exhibits in court. That's probably going to be one of the most important pieces for your case, as well as her prior conviction.

What she is trying to do is level the playing field so that her transgressions are equal to yours. She is what Bill Eddy refers to as a "persuasive blamer," and your job is to stay emotionally grounded and keep producing evidence that refutes her allegations. If you have to, have her deposed. Ask a solicitor if that is something your courts do. It's a very effective way to get pwBPD to enter an official testimony, and then your L will cross-examine her. She'll change her story because she won't remember the details, and will get so turned around you might actually end up feeling sorry for her.

Also, there is a good chance that your case will go before a judge. Hopefully it won't, but it's not too uncommon here. If that happens, make sure your L has experience trying cases in court. Not all of them do. There is nothing more helpful to your case than a competent trial attorney who knows how to present a compelling and accurate narrative. My L had an incredible instinct in court and knew exactly what pieces of evidence would get the point across. She was rarely on the defensive, and knew how to take hold of the story.

Make sure, too, that your L understands your wife will obstruct absolutely everything she can, even if it is to her benefit. That means having very precise and detailed language, including consequences for non-compliance, in any order that gets entered. This is where a lot of attorneys fall down on the job. They don't realize that your wife has no regard for consequences, they think she'll behave like a reasonable person. Having detailed orders will not necessarily prevent you from going to court  again, but it will help make sure the hearing goes in your favor. Someone who agrees to an order, and then obstructs it -- that pattern will catch the judges attention. Courts don't like to see people disregard court orders because it undermines their authority. I found my court took that much more seriously than anything my ex was doing directly to me.

Keep talking to friends and getting support. It will help mitigate some of the painful feelings that come up when your wife behaves like this. She is likely to dysregulate even more, and start to show even more childlike behaviors as the divorce rolls ahead, so document everything you can right now and treat this like a short but intense period where you have to do everything you can to protect yourself. If she attacks you, call the police and file a report.

It was uncanny how many times my ex did something, and then immediately accused me of doing that exact same thing. It got to the point that when he accused me of something, I assumed he had done it.

This will end, and you'll move on. 

In other words, the unsubstantiated allegations and whatever else she does are her only way to try to make you look worse than her.

As just one in a list of examples I could describe, back in 2007 my then-stbEx was the temp custodial parent during the two year divorce process.  She hadn't responded to the school nurse who required a minimum of vaccinations and so the school contacted me. (As it turned out afterward, ex still avoided vaccinations by filing a waiver with the school.)  Well, when I told ex I had made an appointment with the pediatrician's office, she raged at me.  What I didn't find out until much later was that she then called and raged at the pediatrician's staff, cussing them out up one side and down the other, I guess for letting me merely make an appointment.  The doctor promptly 'fired' her by sending a "withdrawal of services" notice letter to her.  (How many kindergartners lose a pediatrician?)  So what was ex to do?  She looked bad so she had to make me look worse than her.  The next week I was contacted by CPS, she had taken son to the ER reporting that I had beat my son on the shins in a fit of rage.  Previously son had never supported her claims, so she must have really worked hard on him.  The hospital nurse who interviewed him said he was clearly a very active boy and bruises were typical of an active boy but because of the statements it was referred to CPS.  I told CPS my son had shown me a bruise and said he wasn't sure how but might have gotten it on the monkey bars when at a park with his mother.  After all that hassle, they told me they had already spoken with him at school - what they view as a neutral location - and wanted to hear what I had to say because he hadn't 'indicated' abuse.  The case was thereafter closed as 'unsubstantiated', they never say something was false.


Consequences are so necessary but also so hard to get.  Courts don't want one parent to appear the winner and the other a loser, normal people usually settle down, adjust to the new separated situation and let go of the conflict, so the courts don't want to hinder that long term.  Also, they expect the parents to figure out that things will move along faster and better if they settle the difference in mediation or settlement talks.  (That's why the courts and lawyers aren't concerned when the months turn into a year or two for the divorce.)  The problem is that entitled persons can't negotiate in good faith and any reasonableness or concessions on our part are perceived as Weakness, thus inviting more demands that really test our new-found boundaries.

As much as possible close the standard loopholes in standard orders.  Boilerplate such as 'reasonable' telephone contact or 'mutually agreed' exchange locations won't work for us because those are there for reasonable parents to work out among themselves.  An entitled disordered parent sees no need to be reasonable and so standard vague language leaves too much for unilateral reinterpretation.  Yes, even with a good and tight order you may still have to return to court, but at least you've plugged as many holes as possible with forethought.

It may never be 'over' totally, not when there are children, but you'll get past the worst of it in time and find that Life After is so much better than you ever imagined.

Foreverdad and livednlearned... .

As always, you are most helpful.   She has thrown me and our relationship under a bus.  I can't believe the allegations raised by her... .  Yes,  she is an incredible liar, a charmer and schemer!  Quite remarkable.   I hadn't seen this side of her in such vivid contrast before finding out about her affair.   She is quite dangerous... .My lawyer urges extreme caution around her.   She is quite ruthless,  and lacking in emotions or care.  I have, and still,  wonder if she has psychopathic traits. 

I'm not sure what the next step will be.  I realise I'm not looking to 'win' in a traditional sense... .More get away with the least amount of damage to me, and most amount of child contact I can get...

Thank you for sharing your experiences... .All I can say is it helps to know I'm not the only one.  Truly the worst part of my life by miles.  A horror with feelings as if being tortured... .It will get easier,  and in someways it has started to get a little easier.   I feel a lot more detached from her, which helps. 

At times this feels like it isn't real, almost as if I'm talking about a case at work.  I still can't comprehend the enormity of it all.  And how it has impacted on every aspect of my life, and on the most important bit... .my kids. 

I have been a loving husband and father... .  Just wanted the best for my family.   This is how I'm repaid. 

What is particularly awful about your case is that the two of you still live together. Everything else is awful -- the affair she had, her mental illness, the false allegations. But experiencing this while living in the same home must be a nightmare.

Your lawyer is wise -- be very careful right now. You can't afford to make any mistakes, even mistakes that others could perceive as such. It many ways it is helpful for you that there is an injunction because it will curb some common impulses that tend to make things worse.

Are your kids in counseling right now? I can't remember if you mentioned this. They are going to need boatloads of validation right now to relieve some of the intense feelings they are experiencing. I hope you have a good counselor too. It's an extreme amount of stress, even if you feel it is somewhat normal as you adjust to it. I don't know how people get through these divorces without a good T.

Do you have a strategy for how you co-exist in the same house?  

Below is a little bit of my "divorce story" from another thread... .


 

My strategies for living in the same house with my ex from another thread... .




Maybe activities with your kids would be a good way for you to avoid the stbxw.  Might be good for all of you to step out of the tension at home and do something fun/distracting together.  I agree therapy... .someone outside the conflict for your kids to talk with is a really good idea.

I know what you are going through is extremely difficult... .it was the most incredible test of endurance and patience I ever had to go through living a year with my ex but it can be done.  Handle it the best you can and keep your eye on the prize... .it will end.  

Thanks for your wise words livednlearned and Panda

It is stressful.   The injunction helps, as we can't talk... .preventing the endless baiting and terrorising,  and demands that I leave.  

Panda- you had a long journey and yes, you are right, I need to develop some strategies to get through this... .and yes, being a moving target has become one important one.  A friend has lent me a mini video camera for another level of protection.   If I don't have responsibility for our kids I go out and stay out late.

It's going to be a few more months to sell and move.  Awful, but unavoidable... .Not my choosing... .Interestingly meantime she continues her relationship with her partner,  as she refers to him now.   You'd think she do the decent thing and move out? Hey ho.

Well... .I've been quite good at avoiding her... .And haven't seen her for a few days, helped by her going to her new partner for a two nights... . 

This is to be expected... .This morning I stayed in bed late, in order to avoid her... .Loud music, singing pharrell's happy... .Followed by texts regarding our daughters birthday... .I have the kids that day... I'm going away to avoid seeing my wife... .She texts saying our daughter is distraught not to spend her birthday with her mum... .Followed by texts suggesting I'm being cruel to my daughter by taking her away for the day... .  I haven't responded to them... .  Keeping my head down,  and keeping out of her way... .I know this is just her trying to engage... . 

I'm sorry she's doing all of this garbage I know how hurtful it is, and how emotionally exhausting it is... .I hear how tired you are.

What I am really glad you hear is that you see it for what it is and you are not being sucked into her stupid games and attempts to engage you.

I hope you plan something really nice to do with your daughter on her birthday and you just have a lovely day together.  |iiii

Are you doing ok with the comment about your D being distraught?

Livednlearned... .

It hurts... .I don't thint I'd paid attention to the hurt until I read your post!  But I think it's just her lying,  and trying to hook me in and engage me. 

Maybe both things are true? Your wife wanting to engage you/hook you (having a problem recognizing her own role in why both of you cannot celebrate D's birthday together), and D feeling distraught because she wishes her birthday could be "normal."

You're in a very tough position living in the home while your wife is having an affair, and perhaps you're in survival mode. Likely you're protecting your emotions from immense hurt. I have found when I am trying to shut down some feelings, the whole system tends to go down.

It's ok to check in with your D to see how she feels, to validate her if she's sad. It's ok to be sad -- it's a sad time. Her mom is acting strange, you stay in your room a lot, neither of you are talking. She probably feels the tension. We can do a lot for our kids during crises like this just by listening, asking questions, "Are you sad?" You don't have to have answers, or say much. "I'm sad too. Change is hard, but I love you, that's not going to change." Would you feel ok talking to your D like that?

Thanks...    Reading your post brought tears to my eyes.  It is a truly dreadful situation.   I feel quite tortured by it all.  It is unbelievable that she remains in the house conducting her affair, and behaves/d in the way she has.  It is like I'm in the wrong for thinking this is wrong.   It is quite hard.  Yes, probably have a bit of emotional shut down... .Which when I can shut the emotions down a bit makes it easier to cope.   It's all rather awful.  Every morning this week woken by her playing music and singing songs "im going to shake him off", "because I'm happy ".  I put earphones in last night whilst in my room to avoid hearing her talking on the phone about her boyfriend in a loud voice.

It's ok to cry -- how could you not? Few things are more painful than this.

Keep your kids close to your heart, if you can. You will feel the hurt more, but it will also provide some relief and healing if you let yourself feel what's happening by letting them feel theirs -- it will feel painful, but it's necessary. If it feels too hard to do that right now, maybe the kids need a therapist to talk to? If they don't have one already. 

I've spent the weekend with my kids.  I took them away, and made sure they had the opportunity to talk, and know that it's ok to feel sad.  The school has a contact book in order that we can communicate how my daughter has been feeling. my wife wrote that on two nights she couldn't console our daughter as she was upset that she wasn't being allowed to see her mother on her birthday.  I feel this is a bit manipulative... .She is trying to run me down at the school.  I have the kids that weekend,  and have no intention,  as with my other weekends,  of being anywhere near my wife.  Plus, I tried to talk to our daughter about it... .She didn't seem upset by it... .She's more upset we aren't having a party with kids from her class.  

I should be in a better place with the end of marriage... .But at times I find myself brooding over events over the last year or so... .Crazy really... .It's over, I know that,  I really don't want her, in many ways I despise her for what she has done. . I know she has a  disorder,  which means I can't explain or understand what has happened... .At least I am brooding less.  I'm sleeping a bit better.  Appetite is back... .Need to keep an eye on my weight gains.  Less depressed... .Thinking about my future... .

This is a truly awful experience... .If I had done this (affair) ,  I would have moved out.  Held my hands up, apologised, avoided further hurt.

I agree, mother was inserting her own feelings and blamings into the log.  The school ought to known that the parenting and holiday schedules in your area probably don't split the children's birthdays in half for time with each parent.  (In my area if a birthday falls on a school day then the court's designated birthday period doesn't even start until after school.)  Hopefully that blaming will sound hollow with those knowledgeable in how split families have to handle such events.

If your daughter was with you this year on her birthday then, if your parenting order is like most that have alternating schedules, next year she will be with her mother.  My schedule for holidays and special events alternates everything over the course of two years, whatever event was with one parent the first year is assigned to the other parent the next year.  That arrangement is about as 'fair' as the courts can get and not time-slice a child's life into piecemeal visits and constant exchanges.  As far as birthdays, my court does not split the day between the parents, it uses the alternate year method.  Whichever parent does not have the children for any given year can choose to have their own special time set aside in the days or week before or after for their own activities.

Foreverdad- many thanks. 

Like me, she has to accept that she might not have our kids when she wants them.  Its a product of having an affair, splitting up and not being able to spend time together as parents.  This is a reality I have had to embrace early on, ie. that I won't see my kids every day; and it still causes me an enormous amount of sadness.  Its complicated by her remaining in the family home, despite having an affair for almost a year now (I've know about it for the last 6 months)!   Here in the UK most childcare arrangements are made informally, without court involvement.  I have asked that when our arrangements are agreed they are made into a court order, for fear of future problems with access etc... I would like shared care 50%-50%.   I'm waiting to hear from her lawyers regarding this request.  My wife has fluctuatated between saying shared care, and also that I'll see my kids every other weekend.  I'm just waiting for the divorce to be finalised, she returned the papers and hasn't contested adultery, so anytime soon.  The finances are also outstanding, and no agreement has been reached yet- I'm sure this will also be a difficult issue.       

Smart to have the childcare arrangements be entered as a court order. It helps to have an entity (court order) to act as the ultimate boundary because your wife does not have a typical regard for boundaries. You will be put in the position of having to enforce these boundaries, using the court order to back you up.

But she may also decide that life is much easier without the kids, and regardless of whatever she agrees to on paper, will spend much less time with them. My ex was hell-bent on a protracted, long 4-year custody battle, and then got a girlfriend and suddenly the conflict stopped. And even when he was fighting for more time with S13, he in no way behaved like someone who actually wanted to spend time with S13.

Not all people with BPD are high conflict when it comes to family court. They can be difficult for all the reasons that the disorder distorts thinking and behavior (ie. impulsivity, projection, feelings = facts, etc.) but that doesn't necessarily mean they will become high conflict. I know it's difficult to see anything positive about the affair, but there's a chance that it will minimize the level of conflict you might otherwise experience. As long as the other man is not a negative advocate that your wife tries to recruit and work against you.

There is another battle that is equally important. The battle for custody is the one we discuss here, but a lot of people with BPD also engage in tactics to win the hearts/minds of their kids. This ends up looking like alienation. It's important to get ahead of this as much as you can, which is understandably difficult while you are grieving and experiencing the pain of your wife's insensitive behavior. But if your wife turns the kids against you, then the court ordered boundary becomes challenged by even the kids themselves. That's a painful end point you don't want to get to. Not saying your case will go that way, just that parental alienation is pretty common among people with BPD.

How about having a firm boundary? ... .We will have shared care 50%-50%.  Notice how a slight change in words changes a hope, wish or request - which can be perceived as a weak request easily denied - into a statement and much firmer boundary?

To expand on that thought, we often say that mediation and settlement talks almost always fail.  Yet most cases, even ours, still get settled.  How is that?  Mediation and settlement talks fail in the early stages of the separation and divorce process.  Usually you can't reach a decent settlement until the disordered parent is closer to a big impending hearing or event such as a trial, and their sense of entitlement or control is pressured and starts to show cracks.  It is not an exaggeration when we comment that you could very well settle "on the court house steps" as you are about to walk inside.  If only my court house had steps then I could say that happened to me.  As I arrived for The Trial nearly 2 years into my divorce case I was greeted at the door by my lawyer with the news she wanted to settle.  (The temp order was so favorable to her that delaying the case was to her advantage.  Trial Day was when her strategy faced reality and ended.)

Guess what?  I walked out with even more than my lawyer expected.  My ex had finally bent to the prospect of Shared Parenting and 50/50 time.  But I set a firm boundary that went one step farther... .I would be Residential Parent.  She desperately tried to cling to that, even both lawyer said it meant nothing but which school our child attended.  All I said was, I feel that is right and if we don't settle for that then let's start the trial.  Yes, I became RP.  Yes, it did make a difference, our son was to finish out the school year there but within a couple months she had caused enough scenes at school that they gave me one day to transfer him to my school.  In my case, and for me, that boundary worked.  You too can decide which boundaries you need so your parenting isn't hindered overmuch.

LivednLearned does have a valid point.  Many pwBPD (or other acting out PD) feel entitled or expected by society to appear as the "Mother/Father Of The Year" or they see the children as leverage or control tools against us.  Even if she demands control or majority time, she may (emphasis on 'may' in time gift you additional time because she is busy elsewhere.  In my case, my ex-spouse was exceedingly possessive from the start and yet I did get several days extra each year.  After I became Legal Guardian and got a slight advantage on parenting time the conflict has lessened, though it could also be that our child is older now or other factors.

Livednlearned... .

Thanks.  I think the alienation has started already.  Kids report she tells them that she loves me... .which I think must seem strange to them as they have to reconcile that with the fact we are splitting up.  She had them lying about her whereabouts during the affair.  She is promising them a dog and a cat in her new house (when we eventually sell); although I can't imaging her coping with either.  As always, I am making sure they know how I feel about them.  I am doing fun things with them; a zoo trip and beach day out at the weekend.  I bought two tablets for them to use/play with when I take them away at weekends.   I took your advice and tried to talk to them.  I made sure they were told they weren't to blame, and that it was ok to feel sad, and that I felt sad with all the changes.  They are amazing...  The school teachers report that they are very bright, and exceeding academically.   Both of them denied feeling sad, or feeling to blame... .but I'll keep reassuring them, telling them that I love them, and making sure we do fun things together.  My son had wanted to see wolves, so the zoo trip was magical as they had wolves.  I need to make some new memories with them.

I hope childcare and money aren't high conflict... .however, I suspect they will be.  Thanks again.  You, and all the other people who contribute/post replies really do help.  It has helped me remain (relatively) sane.

Foreverdad- I've just read you post.  Thanks.  Yes, you have injected some positivity into me.  My lawyer is working on the principle that we currently share care 50% 50%... .whilst living in the same house, and she doesn't see an argument for anything different.  Likewise, its rare to ask for an agreed court order in the UK, but she feels there should be no argument against it, especially as I'm offering to pay for it.  I'm heartened to hear your experience... .thank you for sharing your experiences. 

I really struggle most days.  This website is helpful.  I read someone's thread recently, where they said that this website was one of two or three reasons they remained sane.  I agree with them, this support has really helped me.  A colleague recommended this site... .and in turn I have recommended it to another colleague ... .(we all work in the mental health field, but we have had very close and personal experience of BPD).

Well... .she has remained provocative over the last couple of weeks. 

However, today she has contacted me asking to sort out childcare arrangements and finances.  It is out of the blue, and rather unexpected.  She seems to be agreeing to shared care of our kids, and a 50-50 split in finances.  I still want the childcare to be made into an agreed court order.  I am aware that she might (and has often in recent months) change her mind... .often saying she is worth more than 50% of the house... .as much as 70%, and that I'll see the kids every other weekend.  So, there is a good chance she will change her mind... .but this is rather unexpected... .perhaps someone has given her some good advice, or the recent brush with the courts (and associated costs) might have helped, or her "partner" is putting pressure on her, or a moment of clarity?   

She had this offer months ago from my lawyer... .never responded to it.

Fingers crossed.    I'm not out of the woods yet. 

Be aware that she will perceive any reasonable concessions on your part as 'weakness' and make her dig in her heels even more.  Beware of making one concession after the other.  It's a form of boundary pushing.

Notice how she presumes "you'll see the kids every other weekend" as already decided - or presents it that way.  If you want 50/50 to continue then you can't let that be one of the scenarios you agree to.

I previously mentioned my time negotiating on Trial Morning.  I felt I needed the trial but my lawyer said the outcome had no guarantee.  Though the custody evaluator was there, even he seemed to assume there would be a settlement.  (Most cases do settle, though our cases that end reasonably well seem to always settle at the last possible moment, examples of Brinkmanship... .who will blink first?)  Yet I decided I would not 'agree' to anything I wasn't comfortable with.  I wasn't comfortable letting her walk out as Residential Parent.  I knew that the judge could very well decide that she would remain RP - and I could accept that ruling - but I decided I would not agree to it in a settlement.  That's how I was within my comfort zone to state, "Either we agree I will be the Residential Parent in a settlement or else let's go into the courtroom and start the Trial."  It worked.

Foreverdad   ... .many thanks!

She received the letter from my lawyer proposing that we carry in shared care a week on week off, and that this is incorporated into a court order.  She sent texts saying she wanted to avoid court.  Interestingly she initially denied havung the letter.  She said she had discussed with the kids... .what they wanted... .im not sure if she did, and clearly this conversation would be swayed by her.  They, apparently,  dont want week on week off.  She says she wants to carry on with a fortnight divided 50 50 on a rolling rota.  Nonetheless,  I still want it in a court order.   I wont agree finances until childcare is agreed.

You are quite right... .no concessions,  no weakness.  

She followed by trying to agree finances... .offering 50 50.  My lawyer wrote and offered this 4 minths ago.,, she never responded.  Apparently I wasn't being clear what I wanted.  I advised her to contact my lawyers to get things moving.

I have found two colleagues who have been in my position.  They have been great supports... . one moved out after his wifes affair and BPD behaviour.  She then relocated with his kids, makung seeing them really hard.   The other moved out... .wss arrested on a false allegation of dv.  She then prevented him from seeing his youngest kids claimingd he wasnt the father... .court ordered paternity test later, and they are his... .and he has access to them.   Amazingly,  we are all nurses... .and so are our BPD spouses.   I still kick myself for not seeing my situation earlier.  I stilk struggle to stop thinking about her affair and conduct... ,   she blames me for everything, and accuses me of all sorts, she seems unphased by it all.  Colleagues warn me  of her psychopathic traits.   She is quite nasty.  

I'm glad you have others that can identify with your situation, as difficult as your life is right now. If you are going to go through this, having people in your life who understand will go a long way. These divorces can be very isolating experiences and hard to explain to people who don't understand BPD.

Do you believe that your wife talked to the kids about what they wanted? If so, this sounds like adultification/parentification. They are likely to say what your wife wants them to say to avoid conflict or to enmesh with her. In BPD world, a fortnight with her will not be equal to one with you, not in terms of working over the kids. She will engage in alienation tactics, whereas you won't. Try to break up the time to a shorter stretch. And go through Lesson 5 and 6 on the Coparenting board when you have time. Lesson 5 is about raising emotionally resilient kids and Lesson 5 is about parental alienation. I had majority time with my son, and a very strong bond. Even with that in place, my ex managed to undermine me in ways I never thought possible. He tried to convince S13 (11 at the time) that I had had an affair, and that's why I left. Not because N/BPDx was mean, not because he was an alcoholic, but because I had an affair. I only discovered N/BPDx was working S13 over like this because he had a psychotic episode one night and all these allegations came out. It turned out he had been telling S13 this for a long time, who didn't know what to believe. Get ahead of this behavior as much as you can -- it can make a big difference to how well the kids adjust.

Parental alienation goes hand in hand with these divorces. If it isn't full-blown PA, there will at a minimum be parentification, adultification, or infantilization of the kids. You're going to have to be twice the adult for your kids. 

yes, the alienation does worry a lot... .I'll look at the reading. 

I went away for the weekend.  I came back tonight to find the house looks a lot emptier.  She has been busy clearing things out over the weekend.   I knew it had started, and would happen... .But I didn't expect to feel anything when it did happen... .  An error in my judgement. 

Plus, every day she sends a text about something,  and often goes out of her way to get in my way when I'm at home.  This week she spoke to me twice, even though she shouldn't speak to me.  She often makes noise deliberately,  like talking about her boyfriend on the phone in a loud voice.  I avoid her, don't speak, ignore her texts, unless they require an answer.  I know this is just her attempts to engage, when the usual channels of engagement are not open.  I have taken to listening to a white noise app at night time... .Can't hear her.  It is just so ridiculous.

Ok... .Please excuse my moaning now... .She baked a huge love heart shaped valentines cake... .obviously not for me... .and left it out in the kitchen... .  Yep, this is torture.

SES,

That is cruel and really sucks... .I'm sorry.

You are asking to disregard your pain, and also to bear witness to it.   My son does this, he has a wry sense of humor which makes it easier for him to pull it off. It's ok to be in pain, no need to make any apologies for your suffering. Many people here understand the grief.  

It's cruel what she is doing. She is also very ill. And the laws are not helping your situation -- they dictate that you must stay in the home while she behaves this way. Are there other ways to take care of yourself that you haven't explored because they're uncomfortable or outside your comfort zone? Can you stay with someone, or stay in a hotel, so that you have a reprieve from this? Even temporarily. There have been people on this board who managed to have a custody schedule where the parent who did not have the kids stayed somewhere else. They were both living in the house, just not at the same time.

It also sounds like she is testing your boundaries by starting to talk to you. She sees that there are some chinks in the armor. It may get worse.

Recovering from these relationships is that it comes in waves. The pain will come, subside, come again. Lean into the pain so it doesn't get all backed up inside you somewhere. That just makes it take longer to heal.

Because eventually you will heal from this.

Panda and Livednlearned... .thanks as always.

It does suck.  I'm quite fed up with it.  She has no remorse.  I'm in the house with her last night and this morning.  She has the kids this morning.  She sent a text to say my son was ill, I asked what was wrong, but she took him to school anyway (he didn't seem ill when he came to say goodbye).  She then sent a text complaining that I hadn't told her about the car breakdown cover needing renewal, and that "Im glad we can both put our differences behind us and be helpful towards eachother".  It was a joint policy in my name, which I renewed just for me/my car.  Her text, and behaviour, has really set me thinking/ruminating... .She clearly has no remorse regarding her affair, our divorce, her dishonesty, her behaviour during and after the affair came out, the impact on our kids, the loss of our home, the loss of some of my possessions, the hurtful things she has said, the lies she has told, the false allegations, the assaults, the rage, the attempts to make me feel so awful, suggesting I was going to kill myself and my kids, having the police at our home... .I find it hard to cope with her absence of humanity, and lack of respect/understanding for the hurt she has caused.  I know, she isn't capable of these things.  I'll never see that from her.  All I can do is try to minimise the impact she has on me.   She does seem quite psychopathic... .no care in the world... .having a great time... .almost a year into her relationship with her "partner"... .it is a truly awful situation to find myself in.

Livednlearned... .I'm embracing the sadness/pain today.   When I don't have the kids I go out until late.  At the weekends I go away, with or without the kids.  I can't stay in the house, it isn't condusive to living, I still audio record whenever I'm in the house. 

Ok... .I made a mistake today... .I tried to put some boundaries down regarding her paying some household bills... .As a result I was drawn into discussing more than I planned re kids.  I took the bait... .Now I have to retreat to safety of minimal contact.  I recognise my mistake... .It hasn't helped me, in fact, just led me a merry dance and left me miserable.   I just need to step away, and withdraw.    ...   it drives me round the bend.  I hold my hands up, it was my poor judgement.  It was so easy for me to get caught up in her lies, game playing and provocation.    I can't believe I managed to be with her for fourteen years!

*mod*

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .