The mess of the ending 2

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Any suggestions how to counter my wife's malicious accusations that if I can't have a relationship with her I am going to kill myself and my kids?

She told me she has a witness statement from someone I apparently said this to.  If she has any such statement it it likely from her mother or sister.   She made this allegation to the police after her release from custody, when she had been cautioned for assaulting me.  I was away with the kids, and the police did a welfare check, and were apologetic to me. 

I am wondering what false and malicious allegations lie ahead.

I currently record everything when I'm in her presence.  I work in the mental health field, and can provide numerous colleagues for character assessments, and opinions of my mental state.

[SES]

Any suggestions how to counter my wife's malicious accusations that if I can't have a relationship with her I am going to kill myself and my kids?

She told me she has a witness statement from someone I apparently said this to.  If she has any such statement it it likely from her mother or sister.   She made this allegation to the police after her release from custody, when she had been cautioned for assaulting me.  I was away with the kids, and the police did a welfare check, and were apologetic to me. 

I am wondering what false and malicious allegations lie ahead.

I currently record everything when I'm in her presence.  I work in the mental health field, and can provide numerous colleagues for character assessments, and opinions of my mental state.

[livednlearned]

There are a couple of things you can do.

On the expensive side, you can depose her. Anything she says will be sworn testimony, and when cross-examined, if it comes out that she is lying, it's perjury. In some courts, perjury is a crime, but in family court, I think it mainly serves to undermine your spouses credibility and can be used to tip off her L that he needs to rein in his client. Ls really don't want to be blatantly duped in front of the judge -- it undermines their reputation.

My combined deposition (we were both deposed) ended up being $1200 for lawyer fees, and $700 for the transcription. I put together the binder of emails for my L and that saved me a lot of money. My L estimated I saved myself at least $1500, but I also had a lot of email documentation for her to go through.

Also, depositions flush out a lot of things prior to being in court, so you and your L can strategize about how you'll deal with any other false allegations. Psychologically, the deposition was a turning point for me. My L was so good, and I finally saw how clear it was that N/BPDx's issues could be seen by other people. He's a former trial lawyer, so I thought he was going to crush me. The opposite happened because BPD is based on disordered thinking.

Also a bit on the expensive side is to have both of you undergo psychiatric evaluations. Better to have the MMPI-2 if that's a common tool used for psychiatric evaluations where you live. My ex went through a psychiatric evaluation that was basically 3-4 sessions with a forensic psychiatrist, and that evaluation did not include an objective instrument. You have to go through a specific psychiatrist to find someone with the skills to do the MMPI-2. Many forensic psychiatrists, I guess out of concern that they will be sued, deliver very cagey, wishy washy reports that don't come right out and make a diagnosis. However, in my case, the insight into N/BPDx's behavior was equally if not more damaging than a diagnosis. One sentence was something like, "It cannot be ruled out that Mr. N/BPDx has a personality disorder and further evaluation and treatment is recommended."

The important thing is that your L addresses the false allegations swiftly and firmly. "Your honor, Ms. SES is making a false allegation against my client, and is perjuring herself in order to take attention away from her own struggles and hospitalization for suicidal ideation. These are the dates she was hospitalized, and just recently it was recommended that she commit herself again."

Swift, to the point, and then pivot to put it back on her. If your L points out every false allegation, the judge will understand that there is a pattern here.

[maxen]

in addition to livednlearned's excellent suggestions - an approach (deposition) that has been used by others on this board to great effect - please remember that nothing's true just because your wife says it. this is a theme of mine and maybe i'm just talking to myself, but people who have been in our position (on the receiving end of BPDical behavior) do panic (i did, i was terrorized for a while).

She told me she has a witness statement from someone I apparently said this to.  If she has any such statement it it likely from her mother or sister.   She made this allegation to the police after her release from custody, when she had been cautioned for assaulting me.  I was away with the kids, and the police did a welfare check, and were apologetic to me.

you know perfectly well that you never said any such thing. if she tries to bring others into her scheme she's just multiplying the opportunities for her own disaster, because a witness will have to be named and that person could be deposed too (i think). you also have a record of her false assertions and the sympathy of the police. you could scarcely be in a stronger position. but do make sure your L makes a deal of it.

I work in the mental health field, and can provide numerous colleagues for character assessments, and opinions of my mental state.

there you go.

[SES]

Thanks both... .  Lawyer wrote to my wife's lawyers to express her concern re the malicious allegations.   I have been worrying about it, and it has caused some sleepless nights...    But I probably need to park it, and see what she does next.  There will be a hearing regarding the injunction I took out.   It'll be interesting to see what she tries to do to defend herself,  esp as she now has a criminal record for domestic violence.

I have also prepared my lawyer re my wife's boyfriend,  who describes himself as a frequent user of hard drugs on his dating website... .I hope I can find a way to reduce the risk he poses to my kids.  it fills me with horror that she might allow him contact with my kids.  What an exceedingly poor choice she made.

[maxen]

SES, have you seen this? it's short, and your L may have time to read it:

bpdfamily.com About Personality Disorders and the Family Courts

[SES]

Thanks... .I'll forward that on to her. It is really concise, but very clear.   

[ForeverDad]

My ex came in with a statement from her neighbor, my lawyer objected and court agreed and we all moved on.  He explained to me that he can't cross-examine a piece of paper.

[livednlearned]

Thanks both... . Lawyer wrote to my wife's lawyers to express her concern re the malicious allegations.   I have been worrying about it, and it has caused some sleepless nights...   But I probably need to park it, and see what she does next.  There will be a hearing regarding the injunction I took out.   It'll be interesting to see what she tries to do to defend herself,  esp as she now has a criminal record for domestic violence.

I have also prepared my lawyer re my wife's boyfriend,  who describes himself as a frequent user of hard drugs on his dating website... .I hope I can find a way to reduce the risk he poses to my kids.  it fills me with horror that she might allow him contact with my kids.  What an exceedingly poor choice she made.

Can you get a screenshot of his dating profile? It might not carry water legally to kitchen sink her with something like this, but a lawyer can always mention it, and a judge can always sustain or overrule. The judge won't mention it as a factor in the ruling because he/she can't, however it may still play a role in the theater of it all.

Be prepared for more false allegations -- but also be prepared that you may eventually not feel so much stress about them. By the time my custody battle was winding down, I was able to see everything in terms of how it would help me in my legal strategy. I was able to see my case the way everyone else saw it, instead of being so scared of N/BPDx. I look back now and can't believe how intimidated I was.   I thought he was so charming and smarter than everyone else, and could manipulate the socks off the judge. But it didn't play out that way at all.

[SES]

Livednlearned - thanks!

I have sent my lawyer screenshots of his dating website.   I have let children services know about my concerns,  and that i have an injunction against her.    I'm waiting to hear from lawyer if there is anything that can be done legally to reduce the risks to my kids.   I am deeply worried about my kids having contact with him, if they haven't already.   

Fortunately the injunction is helpful... .No more baiting at home.    She does come and sit and stand near me sometimes, although we cannot talk.   I still feel like a hermit, as she occupies our living areas, and I feel inclined to avoid her. 

[SES]

Well... .Apparently I am going to kill myself and my kids... .But she still went away for three days... .Leaving me with the kuds, and texting me wishing me a good time with them... .Plus she is telling the kids that she loves me... .a bit confusing for them... .

I can't wait for this to end

[Panda39]

Well... .Apparently I am going to kill myself and my kids... .But she still went away for three days... .

I admit this did make me chuckle, it is just ludacris isn't it?... .but now you have something to counter the false allegation, if you are such a threat to yourself and your children then why did she leave them with you? This is why so many of us say document... .document... .document    She will continue this kind of stuff and if she is anything like my SO's uBPDxw she will like above continue to make herself not credible by her own actions. 

One thing I've seen both with my alcoholic ex-husband and with my SO's ex-wife is once the co-dependent relationship is over and we are no longer there to "manage" their dysfunction they spiral down to their natural conclusion.

My ex had his 3rd DUI and lost his job following our divorce and finally hit his rock bottom.  (He got help, stopped drinking and has been sober for the last 3 years)

My SO's uBPDxw was evicted 3 times and now lives in a hotel because no one will rent to her, she has two felony charges against her for a large bad check, she has a civil suit against her with someone else, she has alienated her daughters and her family, and has lost 2 of the 3 friends that she had... .

Which brings me back to document... .document... .document your wife will literally give you what you need in court.

I know the waiting for all of this to be over is miserable but hang in there 

Panda39

[maxen]

Well... .Apparently I am going to kill myself and my kids... .But she still went away for three days... .Leaving me with the kuds, and texting me wishing me a good time with them... .Plus she is telling the kids that she loves me... .a bit confusing for them... .

you kept that text?

[livednlearned]

That's the blessing and the curse of their tendency to have feelings = facts.

Feelings change, but facts don't.

[SES]

Panda and Maxen... .

Yes, i have her text... .I have audio recorded every interaction with her since November.    I've kept every text and whatsapp message for the last 18 months... .

It consumes so much energy... .But there is light ahead... .good times ahead... .New year... .new life

Thanks for being there

[SES]

Livednlearned... .  I like that... .Makes sense!   Yes, her feelings can change rapidly.    The facts of the case stand... .I have to go back to court regarding the injunction... .And if it will continue... .Her allegations will be aired there... .As will the facts... .offered admission... .Assault charge... .And the above... .She often fails to plan forward... .A bit like not thinking through the outcome of her affair... .

[SES]

So, she can't talk to me due to the injunction.   Monday morning she went to see her boyfriend for three days.  Before she left she walked around the house in the expensive underwear I bought her, singing pharrell's I'm so happy.  Yesterday she sent texts regarding our house,sale (one thing she can contact me about) and it was a heap of circular texts regarding the price, which agent and even a suggestion not to sell.  This morning she is going to her boyfriends again, and she showed me a riding crop she is taking with her.  

This morning has gotten under my skin... . I had been doing quite well this week, despite her conduct.  This morning just pushed me a bit further... .Annoyance,  hurt, lots of questions in my mind... .

I wonder if she has psychopathic traits

[livednlearned]

I wonder if she has psychopathic traits

I think it's hard for us to understand the pathological need that BPD sufferers have for attention. Any kind of engagement -- including negative -- is better than no engagement. When there is no engagement, she cannot generate the level of emotional drama that makes her feel something. Not being acknowledged or recognized can trigger this intolerable feeling that she has no self. Your wife has a severe mental illness, she is not in the world in the same way as you and I are. You are a source of something for her, like a child might feel about a parent, but it gets confusing for us because they are adults. The childlike behaviors are emotional and psychological, but they have the cognition and bodies of adults. So unbelievably confusing and painful for us to interact with them. 

It probably feels psychopathic because your feelings are particularly vivid and raw right now, and your needs for empathy and understanding higher than usual. Meanwhile, and she cannot respond in the way a healthy person, with compassion and empathy would respond toward you. The injunction probably makes her feel that you are rejecting/abandoning her (without her being able to reflect on why), so she is trying to reverse the abandonment feelings, if not the actual abandonment. It's an incredibly powerful defense mechanism, almost like it's driven by survival.

You are in a truly horrific situation, SES. I cannot imagine living in my own home with my ex while there is an injunction in place, and having red flags waved in my face. No one should ever have to experience what you are living through. Are you able to do things to take care of yourself? Even small things can help.

[SES]

Livednlearned,

Thanks for your understanding and empathy.  You can tell I'm still struggling with it all.  We haven't even been to court yet!  Or sold our house.  These things are likely to be incendiary.    

It's hard seeing the woman I loved for fourteen years doing these things.  It is very adolescent behaviour.   There is no compassion or empathy.  She doesn't care about the impact of her behaviour.   I can only control my actions.  Yes, there is a pattern of her trying to engage,  and the only way to do that recently is in a bad way. She has never been this bad before... .It's off the scale.

I am concerned that she is avoiding responding to the courts regarding the divorce,  and not responding to lawyer about our post divorce agreement.

 

I am trying to do things to keep myself afloat. Seeing friends and family. Going away with the kids when I can.

[ForeverDad]

This example may not work for you but take the concept and shape it into whatever works for you... .  Imagine you have an invisible umbrella over you that extends all the way to the floor (Maxwell Smart had the Cone of Silence) that everything she says and does to rile, irritate, anger or sabotage you just bounces off.  Silly mental image but it can help you stay focused, emotionally calm and protect you from rash responses.

That's one way to not allow her to trigger you to sabotage yourself at some point by responding poorly either in the house, at the cars, in court, in sessions, wherever.  Sadly, you loved someone who (without long term intensive therapy which is unlikely to happen) does not love you back and has instead morphed herself to view you as The Enemy, Mr Evil Personified.  Some factoids:

For her, her emotions, moods and perceptions equal Fact.  Not true but as far as she is concerned it is true.

Accept that and strategize accordingly.

No matter how logical you are or how much sense you make, you can't reason with someone who refuses to listen to you.  (BPD is a disorder most evident in close relationships.  The closer you are, the greater the extremes.  At that start you were idolized, at the end you are demonized.  Another reason that she's not listening to you is that anything you say will be distorted by her perceptions of the ending relationship.  She can't or won't overcome all the emotional baggage, not without professional or experienced emotionally-neutral guidance.)

Accept that and strategize accordingly.

You may be inclined to hide some of her misbehaviors (a normal inclination under normal circumstances) that would help the court decide how to handle the case.  Don't.  Be aware she is throwing you and the relationship under the bus.  You can't afford to be nice when the other is likely doing anything and everything regardless whether it is right or ethical.  On the other hand, don't be perceived as an angry man, not when she's likely going to posture as a victim.

Accept that and strategize accordingly.

[livednlearned]

I am concerned that she is avoiding responding to the courts regarding the divorce,  and not responding to lawyer about our post divorce agreement.

This is likely a very valid concern.

It helps to have leverage so you can move things forward. I don't know enough about your situation to know what leverage you might have. I didn't have much in my divorce, so I had to erect extremely strong boundaries. I had to keep them in place even when they caused me to suffer, because if they weren't there, the long-term suffering for me and S13 was going to be worse.

The difficult behaviors in the marriage are going to continue in the divorce process, so you'll have to be inventive here and get your L to help you find proactive solutions. That might mean making an offer with a deadline. If she refuses or doesn't show, you go straight to court. Most lawyers don't want to go to court, at least here in the US. They pride themselves on being able to mediate or settle out of court. There will be a bit of theater while offers go back and forth. All you need to know is that the other L, if he or she is a regular reasonable L, will start to put some pressure on your wife if she keeps letting good offers go. I imagine this applies even more so in the UK where it is overall less litigious.

Whatever happens, make sure your L has a backbone. I even let my T and my L talk on the phone right before mediation. T told L, "LnL is going to try and give everything away to make the conflict blow over. Don't let her do that." When I think of how much I was willing to give to N/BPDx it makes me realize how beaten down I was. 

Make sure your lawyer is on the same page: no continuances. No extensions. Your wife is like a child, and she sees you like a punitive parent. That's her deal. Your deal, then, is that you have to have very strong, firm, steady boundaries. The more strong, firm, and steady, the less stress in the long-term for you.

You have to take extra good care of yourself right now -- the stress is going to be intense for a while since you're both in the same house. Get exercise every day. Make that or something else that keeps you manage the cortisol a priority if you can.  

[SES]

Foreverdad and livednlearned ... .Thanks... .I'll try the mental imagery when I get home later.  It does feel precarious at gone, with her willing to engage and provoke.   Yes, I'll see what, if any, leverage there is... .She seems happy with the status quo.   Thanks also for reminding me that she is throwing me under a bus... .She is, and asking the driver to reverse over me afterwards... .She is lying,  smearing,  deceiving,  destroying in a cruel and unethical way... .Reminding me not to hide her behaviours is useful... .I'm keeping logs, but for whatever reason I've missed some things and haven't included enough detail of others.   I don't know why... .Perhaps Just out of habit of covering up for her... .Or desensitisation?   She is has no hesitation in doing anything... .And more is on its way.   I need to prepare to fight my corner... .

She's thoroughly vile and cruel... .  I'm sure her allegations that I'm going to kill myself and our kids is just the tip of the iceberg... .Even without being able to speak to me she remains provocative... .Pushing the boundaries.  Fourteen years... .it comes to this... .I know that lots of people face the same...    

[livednlearned]

She's thoroughly vile and cruel... .    

She's very, very ill. Not only is her thinking disordered, but she has no stable sense of who she is. This idea that BPD sufferers need others to provide a sense of self -- imagine how shaky and unstable that would be. You, who represent part of her identity, is constantly behaving and acting in ways she cannot control. She feels what she feels in response to these parts of her -- you, her affair partner, her kids -- that are outside of her. She tries, and fails, to stabilize her identity through others. And the identity you represent shifts. She is enraged at you for not giving her what she needs, but also wants desperately for you to give her what she needs. Meanwhile, you are your own separate person, with your own feelings, even though this is nearly impossible for her to imagine. In her mind, she does not have a stable sense of self, so how could you?

I think what is so psychologically difficult for you, or for any of us when we are still in the relationship but trying to divorce, is that you are conditioned to help and rescue. This makes us feel good. Some of us depend on that feeling in order to feel good about ourselves. So learning to rewire that impulse is not strictly rational, it's about changing our own sense of self. Who are we if we aren't kind and helpful? I had to grab onto the advice that others gave me, and trust that they knew what they were talking about. My own line of thinking was not working, and never had. You have one foot in the new world, and one in the old. Listen to the voice that is trying to protect you and take care of you. It's probably not a voice you've listened to much, but going forward, you need to let that voice guide you, even if it's a faint whisper.

[SES]

Be aware she is throwing you and the relationship under the bus.  You can't afford to be nice when the other is likely doing anything and everything regardless whether it is right or ethical.  On the other hand, don't be perceived as an angry man, not when she's likely going to posture as a victim.

Thanks ForeverDad and Livednlearned... .

I need to remember she is throwing me under the bus.  I recently got a letter from her lawyer; and it felt like being thrown under a bus.  I need to make sure I'm not being too nice/caring/understanding. 

[SES]

Well... .I feel a bit hung out to dry... .

Had the return injunction hearing... .I had 12 hrs notice... .No lawyer... .She had a lawyer, and lots of documents... .Funny how I am portrayed as a controlling suicidal psychopath... .  Fighting would have been costly... .  In exchange we both agreed undertakings with the court... .only texts re kids and house... .Nothing else, no talking .

At least it's the outcome I was after.

I knew it would be bad... .Never that bad... .I've never done the things she says... .only ever loved her... .Even the judge appeared taken in, and wasn't interested in audio or video recordings. 

Well... .path of least resistance... .Next stop, sell house and agree childcare... .Not sure how that will go... .From today... .I think it'll be hard and far from straightforward... .

A step closer to escaping... .A reminder how devious and convincing she can be... .

[Panda39]

Hi SES 

Even the judge appeared taken in... .

He might have been... .for pwBPD feelings=facts so the pwBPD can be very convincing because they really beleive what they are saying.  Even though you and I know it's all lies. 

I can't remember if any of us has recommended Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy, Randi Kreger but I really suggest you read it if you haven't. 

Just hang in there and just keep giving her the rope.  The more times you appear in front of this judge the more he will see.

[livednlearned]

What documents does she have? Were any of them relevant?

I'm not sure what the equivalent of your hearing would exist where I live. But did your L explain why the judge would not listen to the audio/video recordings? If I remember your case correctly, that is a lot of evidence you were planning to disprove her testimony. Does this mean no audio/video recordings in future hearings, or was it simply for this one?

[SES]

Thanks... .  Her documents = her statement of her events.  The recordings seemed of no interest to the judge. 

[SES]

I didn't have a lawyer... .not enough notice.  I found out at 6pm, the hearing was 10am the following day.  No chance...  She, on the other hand was present with a lawyer,  and a lengthy prepared submission which portrayed me as an evil, controlling,  abusive, suicidal man.  Wonderful... . Amazing how someone can make death threats etc, etc... but turn it on its head.  

I'm disappointed. But it's one less thing to focus on I suppose.   We gave both given undertakings to the court that we will only communicate via text message re kids.  Probably a good thing, and what I wanted anyway.  A sharp reminder of how things will be portrayed in the future.   She had the affair, ended our family as we know it... .First it was a request for an open relationship,  then it was because I was too stable, then the vitreol and venom.   Anything and everything... . What an ending...   Still can't quite believe it!

[ForeverDad]

Was this final or just establishing the ground rules going forward?  Even so, I would think that seeking consultations with some family attorneys or solicitors could give you an idea whether the outcome was good, okay or bad.  What I'm referring to is whether the court's order found you 'guilty' of things you didn't do, that she could use against you later when custody and parenting is decided/negotiated.

I'm hoping it was just an order setting the ground rules for contact only and not finding fault with you.  Why?  It could negatively affect your initial temporary orders for custody and parenting schedule.  Temporary orders often morph into final orders because it is an uphill struggle to fix them and judges get the idea that if it has 'worked' for months then why fix what works?

[SES]

Foreverdad,  thanks

No admission of guilt on either side, just groundrules for cohabitation whilst we sell house.  For me it's good, it's what I had in the injunction... .Only communicate via text message about kids and house.   So good in a way...   After what I have been exposed to, I didn't feel it reflected her behaviour... .But this isn't the battle to win... .hopefully childcare and the equity will be resolved quickly.   But, I will fight over both.  Hopefully won't need court. 

It's been a hard journey... .Six months post her affair... .Still in same house.  Torture to say the least.  I haven't been controlling or manipulative as she would present me... .in fact too laid back, too nice,  too accommodating ,  too forgiving... .A friend reminded my to focus on my goal... .Getting away from her in tact... .with fair access to my kids.  At the end of the day, she has picked up a criminal record... .Which isn't good for her job.