BPDFamily.com

Hi.  I am quite certain this post is going to be long and rambling and it possibly may not make a whole lot of sense.  If you want to join me for the ride, you are welcome and/or if you can provide some direction or even reality checks, I welcome those as well.  Mostly though, I am writing this for me so no response is expected.  BTW, I generally don't do trigger warnings, but some parts of this are graphic (I think) and I will be talking about sexual abuse/incest between a mother and daughter. If you can't handle it, please stop reading here and help me out by keeping it to yourself.  I can't help carry you through this.


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I have made a few posts that reference the shame I feel about the abuse I experienced, especially the sexual abuse and how I am all confused about guilt and blame and my role in the whole mess.  I absolutely *hate* the thought of being a victim to anyone and this has definitely impacted my ability to put all the blame and responsibility squarely on my mother and father's shoulders for the abuse.  I am told that is where it belongs and recently a conversation with Ziggiddy has me embracing that however, it is a very awkward embrace as 'it' is full of sharp jagged edges and pokey parts so my embrace is a bit stiff and awkward and so very uncomfortable.  I am determined to get comfortable with this though.  I also want to understand guilt and what it means and sounds like because while I use the word all the time and I say i feel it, I do not truly understand it.  I can't see shame in my words and I can't identify it in my thoughts and I think I need to in order to change those things.  I am hoping that writing stuff here in the moment will help me to see examples of how shame and guilt show up in my words.  I find it helpful when I have concrete examples to work with.  Even if someone finds just one example here and points it out, I can take things from there.  The brain damage part of this post (see title) is that Ziggiddy helped me to grasp that because of the abuse I experienced, my brain is all screwed up (haha, thanks so much again Zig.  that truly does make me happy and gives me a sense of relief and makes me know I can work this through... .in spite of the brain damage!).  Okay, onward!

My mother [uBPD/?] was my sexual abuser and my father [non/?PD] was an indifferent observer--- actually the biggest reaction I have ever seen him have was to roll his eyes and turn his head away as my mother was touching, kissing and playing with my breasts as we watched TV.  My father had some inappropriate sexual behaviors but they are not what I would call sexual abuse or incest.  Just things like holding my face while coming in to kiss me in a way you would with a romantic partner.  I was always able to turn my face away just in time, though the panic and revulsion I felt were quite intense and I was screaming inside my own head.  I did finally tell him to stop, that it creeped me out when I was in my early thirties.  I can still see his face and feel his hands on mine though... .and I still get that repulsed creeped out feeling when I remember it.  Sometimes the visual memory just pops into my head at odd times.  I cringe away from it and try to block it out, and I know that is NOT the best way to deal with it but my response is still so intense I just stop it there.  The only other thing I can think of to do is to allow myself to sit with the feelings but just the thought of doing that makes me want to sob and scream and I feel sick to my stomach.  I am crying as I write this part.  I would like it to stop or at least reduce my reaction so if anyone can help me here, I welcome suggestions and I don't care how outlandish they are.  To his credit, my father did stop the minute I told him I did not like it and it creeped me out.  I don't think it was sexual on his part or to mark ownership like with my mother.  I think he was just clueless about how inappropriate it was.  I do however, feel stupid for not having told him earlier to stop.  I could have saved myself a lot of grief if I had.  I try to be pragmatic about it but when i listen really hard to the voices in my head I am hearing "you should have said something sooner and it is your own fault for not stopping it" and I call myself a few choice names.  I did not want to hurt him or make him feel bad though.  I had already said horrible mean things to him in the past and it felt awful especially as it was in front of my mother and then she would hop on and berate him even more.  It was horrible.  I do remember feeling that shame as well.  Funny how I am aware of it for those types of things but not in others.

Okay so that was a bit of a ramble there.  I did warn you   

I feel scared right now because I just wrote the easy stuff and to be honest, I am still a bit messed up from the activity.    The tears are right there and my hands are shaking a bit and I keep getting distracted by silly thoughts like wondering if I should get a goldfish and if the tiny snowman I made has melted yet.  And right this second I am wishing I had the stuff to make a grilled cheese sandwich or that I could order a BBQ chicken pizza... .  Neither are part of my 'be a good and obedient diabetic' plan but i sure would like either.  Okay, enough silliness!   You got it out of your system so Onward Harri!

Okay, so I can't say exactly when my mother started using me as her personal dildo (I am angry.  It helps.) as it was such a 'normal' part of my life.  Bathing me very thoroughly and long after I 'should have' been doing it on my own.  Heh, I can remember a time i got a very long raging lecture from her about asking my father to help me in the bath when she was out.  See, I had to wash my hair and I was not allowed to take showers and the way the faucet was on the bath made it very hard to rinse my hair.  My mother had a thing about my hair.  It was perfectly straight and strawberry blond then and it had to be perfect.  If it was messy or not clean enough I was called a ___ and a floozy and a filthy ___ (apologies).  As I was around 8 or so, I did not know what those words meant but I knew they were shameful horrible things to be and I was all of them.  The shame still feels hot and I can see myself standing hunched over, shivering, with my eyes down and wishing I just wasn't.  Not dead or anything.  I just wished I never existed.  The wildly ironic thing is that my mother would usually insist on washing me still so I was confused why it was okay for her and not my father.  I still am not completely sure iabout this.  It was wrong.  It was okay?  which is it?  I was too innocent to understand the significance of having different bits (haha) and part of me to this day still wonders how the heck she expected me to manage my hair in just the right way without help from her or anyone else especially because I was not allowed to take a freaking shower!  Yeah, the rational part of my mind realizes I am looking for logic and reason in insanity.  I think it is the kid part of me that is still confused and I am not sure how to get her to see just how unfair and impossible it was.  How do you say "look kid, she set you up to fail. It is not your fault and you did nothing wrong"  How do I get the kid me to hear and understand that, especially when we can both see the look on my mother's face and the blazing eyes as she berated me?  Or the fact that my father did not say anything; not to defend me or even himself?  I have been telling myself it is not my fault, it was not my failure and these things are not true and never should have happened and I am sorry they did... .but I do not see or feel any change.  I've been telling myself those things for a long time now.  Any suggestions?

So the biggest stumbling block to letting go of the shame I feel is because the abuse continued into my 30s.  I had made some feeble attempts to stop her in my 20s but I always caved in in some way.  Trying to stop it involved my yelling at her, getting in her face and threatening her on a couple of occasions.  Generally not advisable but it was all I had.  The rage and anger would just bubble up.  those were mixed with terror too.  I was terrified especially because my mother kept a gun near her to protect herself from me for decades because she was afraid of my rage.  So every time I tried to stop her in this way, it backfired as it provided proof to her that I was crazy and violent.  By this time, through her mind games, she had already twisted things around many times and had me believing I had been physically violent with her.  I know now those things never happened.  I also know that there were times when my own eyes blazed with rage and anger and it was only by deliberate choice that I did not bash her head in or shoot her with her own gun.  It was never that I did not want to or was not capable of doing those things.  I just thank god that I chose not to.  It is my belief that we all are capable of acting in such ways.  Some of us have never had to confront that part of us and some of us have.  So it is not the fact that I wanted to or even had to actively stop myself from hurting her, it is a simple acknowledgement of what is. 

I paid for my defiance in other ways though, some self-inflicted.  After I would lose control, I was pretty much guaranteed a special visit in my bed, though visits and waking up with her in the same bed were not uncommon.  She would come in while I was sleeping and I would wake to her breath hot in my face while she hovered over me, kissing me and sometimes holding my head.  Waking in terror is quite the thing let me tell ya.  The bolt of electricity, the fear and the confusion while being all groggy with sleep was bewildering to say the least.  I can't really talk about what would happen next.  It went no place good, though it sometimes felt nice.   :'(  It is crazy but I wish she had hurt me rather than pleasured me (no, not really... but yeah).  I understand a body does what it does and I can't control it.  Haha, I even found the positive side to that as it means at least that part of me works just fine... .but please not with her.  Not with HER.  How the hell do you explain that to people?  My ex knew, but he knew before we got involved romantically and in hindsight, I think it is part of the reason he was attracted to me.  Dumba*s me thought it was because he was sensitive and sweet and I actually allowed myself to believe and hope for a little while that it would not matter as long as I was aware and able to work things through in the moment.  While I know I actually can handle things in the moment and won't get all crazy with sex (well, except I am claustrophobic... .but there are ways around that too  :) ) I am no longer convinced that it will not matter and I am too damn scared, tired and sick to try.  I am not willing to take the risk again, and it has been years since the breakup.  But I guess that is a whole other thread.  Or maybe it does belong in this thread because I feel a sense of something similar to the way I did with the whole bathtub/hair business.

Everything is so jumbled up.  This is not the first time I did a thread like this here and some of this is repeats but it is all jumbled up with shame and blame and guilt and self-defeat and how I avoid being a victim by taking on blame and responsibility for things that are not mine to own and I understand intellectually that I am crippling myself emotionally with my refusal to see myself as a victim.  That attitude served me well in many ways, but it is now working against me.  And i am spiraling around in my own head here.  Oh yeah.  somewhere in here is the whole concept of what it means to deserve something.  Haha, I recently chatted with a friend about that and I know it is all mixed up in this mess of shame, guilt, blame and I haven't a clue what it means to 'deserve' something... .specifically what it means to deserve good things or a break or to be cared about.  Stuff like that.

I really want some pizza right now.  I think I deserve better though. 

HI Harri

How are you feeling today?


Well you're getting a response anyway!


Thanks for the disclaimer Harri. I'm a big bird though and can handle it. It's ok, you don't have to help carry us through this but maybe we can help you as you carry yourself out of the grey meadows into a new world filled with lovely colors.

You have been through a lot and yet you've survived. You are experiencing shame for not standing up for yourself sooner and are finding it hard to see yourself as a victim. Accepting that you were powerless isn't an easy thing to do. No matter what age you are, if your childhood was filled with abuse that continued through your adult years, you never really got the chance to develop yourself and your identity in a healthy way. Yet here you are today. You were victimized and abused so in that sense you were a victim indeed. But that's only part of who you are. You WERE a victim but you ARE also a survivor. You somehow found a way to make it through all those years of abuse and that takes a lot of strength and resilience. What you describe as an all jumbled up post is what I consider another sign of you still fighting and doing all you can to deal with what you've been through |iiii


Could you describe what you're afraid of? Do you feel scared to think of the abuse? Scared perhaps of what lies ahead and if and how to get through this? Just writing things down and getting them into the open like this takes a lot of courage and already shows that in spite of your fears, you are still trying to confront the issues underlying those fears |iiii


The abuse your mother subjected you to was horrible. Yet at the same time it was all you knew and that can really cause a lot of conflicting thoughts and emotions in a child.


So what do you feel then? Perhaps the step you should be taking now is not so much focusing on how you should feel but more on how you feel right now. And accepting that you feel the way you do right now even if you would prefer to feel differently. Does that make any sense?


Maybe it will help to ask yourself why the thought of you allowing yourself to sit with the feelings, makes you want to sob and scream. Is it perhaps that allowing yourself to experience those feelings makes what happened to you real? Would you say that you not allowing yourself to experience those feelings is a result of you not wanting to accept the reality of what happened to you? No matter the answer to these questions, I fully understand why you would find it so difficult to sit with these feelings and have those memories of the abuse pop up into your mind. This can be truly overwhelming and you really gotta be very gentle with yourself and very mindful of your emotions and thoughts as you try to process all of this.

Okay, first, I apologize for being so defensive in the first paragraph.  Talk about  getting all defensive!  Dang it.  Here it is, 'my turn' and not only did I miss it (which is just silly really) but I did my best to reject it as well... .  before there was anything to even reject.   Again, I apologize and will do better next time. 

Kwamina, I now have a big blue bird in my grey world.  Thanks!   :)

I am feeling okay thank you.  Tired and spent, but I am not shut off or numb!  |iiii  I am embarrassed with what i shared here.  It is kind of funny because I keep thinking I can't look people here in the eye... .well, duh Harri!   :)  I am not sure if embarrassment is part of shame or something else and I am too tired to google the word right now.  I am angry and hurt and I feel so damn betrayed.  I had a frustrating and longish day today and my annoyance level was higher than usual but I just rode it through and no doctor's were injured during the course of my day  .  there was no numbing myself and no silliness to make it all okay.  I am happy to say that I did not have flashbacks and I slept just fine last night.  The images of certain scenes are vivid and have popped into my head off and on today and the emotions came with them but nothing i can't handle and no fear of the dark or need to check for monsters under the bed.  I did not eat badly today though i did last night <sighs>  There are specifics i want to share or I feel the need to share, but I think i am going to write them down and then burn the papers instead.  I can't push myself to go there here.  I'm just not ready yet and I am not sure it is necessary... .and I guess I have to be okay with that cuz I don't want to make it impossible for me to feel comfortable here.  In terms of support, right now this place is all I have.

Thanks for the validation and for seeing beyond all the drama Kwamina.  It means a lot to me and even though it feels awkward and uncomfortable, I spent some time sitting with your words to me.  I breathed my way through it  and I survived that too.   :)


What am I afraid of?  It is not the abuse that scares me.  With my father, I am so angry with him for not stopping her, for just watching and rolling his eyes.  Who the hell does that?  What kind of person was he to sit there and not say anything?  Why didn't he protect me?  It is not like he pretended it was not happening... .he saw it.  It was right out in the open dammit and the piece of crap father I had just let it happen.  I think it is my anger and my hurt that scares me... .if i poke it too hard I... .I don't know.  I get this image of me in my head (for some reason I am wearing a trench coat!) where I am old and defeated... .all hunched over and brittle.  It is me but it is my father as well.

I think that right there is very telling.  That anger and rage, the hurt I feel about my father are the same feelings I have been holding about myself for not stopping it and sometimes letting it happen just because it was easier and I did not feel like fighting or, perhaps the worst reason of all... .because i f-ing liked it.  Good God.  In my mind I am my father.  Pathetic, weak, complicit, guilty, a monster.  No wonder I haven't been able to move past this.  I don't just feel guilt and shame... .I think I am as bad as my father was. 

What the hell do i do with that?  Yeah.  My brains are scrambled right now with that particular bit of insight so i am going to sign off.  No comprehensible thoughts or words right now.

See ya tomorrow.

Thank you kwamina.   

Perhaps we can classify this as a sort of pre-emptive strike. You were expecting rejection so to 'protect' yourself you made the first strike. You missed me though  Us birds are very quick :)

I am glad that you're feeling okay today.


You're welcome! I know you're a survivor. Being angry isn't necessarily always a bad thing, it can get you going but you then need to try to canalize it in a productive way so it actually helps you in your healing. Only when you would stay angry all the time would it become problematic.


There's a big difference though. You were a child and he was an adult. And not just any adult but your father so he had a huge responsibility to protect you. And he didn't and actually did some very inappropriate stuff to you too. Perhaps not as bad as your mother but still not good at all. You were just a child and subsequently a young adult that came out of that abused child. You've been through way more than most people yet still you managed to survive and the child and young adult you were deserve a lot of praise for their tremendous resilience |iiii Also by sharing your story here you are really helping others with similar experiences in their childhood so I also really wanna thank you for having the courage to share your story here |iiii

Hi Harri and Kwamina,

This is just to say that I'm sort of reading along   

I didn't read your first post Harri because you said it might be triggering but the replies are helpful to me. I think you're very very brave to share your story. I'm sure you'll gain more insight in yourself because of sharing all this. 

Hi again, and thanks.  I keep fighting this on the most ridiculous levels don't I?  I was reading your first reply here Kwamina, and where you wrote "No matter what age you are, if your childhood was filled with abuse that continued through your adult years... ." my mind reworded it to read ... .that continued through your early adult years... .At first I did not catch it and I spent from last night until this morning wondering when do the early years of adulthood start and end?  LOL  The interesting part is, I was a bit miffed and disappointed about it.  :)  Part of me was wondering if you thought it was only okay until I reached 19?  20?  Did he forget I am in my 40s? (I am only telling you this so i have a record of just how twisted my thoughts and reasoning are on this... .I am not and never was upset with *you*... .just the whole age thing... .plus I think it is pretty funny)  So I wrestled with myself a bit (always interesting to do) and it seems a part of me is far more accepting and understanding with what happened than I realized cuz why else would I have felt miffed?  So why the heck am I still hanging onto this belief?  Habit?  Comfort?  Stubbornness?  Self pity?

I'm going back to your first reply as I did not finish working my way through it last night.


Yes it makes sense.  The thing is I thought I had been accepting that I am confused and feel guilty and ashamed and I am blaming myself.  I am confused on this and i can't make sense of what I was feeling.  How I feel about this (taking the responsibility and blame) seems to vary depending on what kind of day I am having.  On a good day, I am accepting and far more forgiving of myself.  Other days, not so much and on bad days I am beating myself up about it (I am all hunched over, defeated wearing that trench coat and I am my dad).  I can't explain it.  I am wondering if blaming myself is a behavior I engage in when I am triggered?  Is that possible?  Does it make sense?  Is it possible that rather than a belief it is more of a habit for me to say "I am bad, stupid, pathetic for allowing this to happen"?

I was thinking more about all of this this afternoon and it struck me that as a child of a BPD and non/? I could have gone in either direction.  I seem to have taken on aspects of both and just a little more to the left and I would be my mother, to the right, my father.  I think I am lucky actually.  I have traits of both, some that I am not pleased with at all, but that sort of puts me nearer to the middle of the continuum and the way i look at this, that is not a bad place to be at all.   


So I asked myself this and I came up with no particular reason.   Again, I have to wonder if my reluctance is more habit that anything having to do with avoiding the actual feelings or not wanting to accept reality.  Right now as I write this, it seems to me that crying and screaming (all right, maybe a bit of yelling is more accurate as screaming seems awfully dramatic) is a normal response to some really painful and hurtful things.  I did spend some time crying and it felt good.  I've been holding in a lot of tears lately but it was more than just a release.  It was different this time around.

And I feel so different than I did when i wrote the first post in this thread... .like some parts no longer apply.  I fear I am sounding all crazy.  I am not though.  I have changed somehow. Seeing myself and my father as the same person and how in my mind there was no difference... .well, I can see what I was doing.  Instead of being angry with my father I was dumping all those feelings and beliefs on me.  So obvious and yet so hard to see.  You are right, there is a big difference between me and my father.   Last night was the first time i was able to write that I am angry and hurt by my fathers' inability/unwillingness to protect me without also being angry with myself.  It was a break through.  Thanks for helping me get there.  I asked what I was supposed to do with the realization of how I saw myself and I think, for now at least, I don't actually have to *do* anything with it... .I just have to let it be for a bit.

Kwamina, thanks for the encouragement and the kind words.  It feels good.  Thank you too for helping me by asking questions.  It really does help and gives me a starting point in terms of working through stuff.

Polly, thanks for the encouragement.  I am glad you took care of yourself and did not read the first post.   |iiii 

Hi Harri, I see you’re making a lot of progress... .I’m impressed!  |iiii


To me that does make sense. When I am triggered, I also blame myself. The opposite also happens: when I blame myself, I get triggered.

Maybe you can ask yourself what you do believe about yourself. In your mind, practice staying calm when you get triggered. Try to visualise a possible trigger and imagine you’d stay calm. Maybe it’s not just that belief follows behaviour, but also that behaviour follows from visualising and thinking you can do it. If it’s a habit, you can change it, even if it takes lots of time. There’s this quote from the Buddha saying “all conditioned things are impermanent” and I find this gives me hope.


I’m proud of you :). May I ask how you feel when you get a break through? Do you feel enlightened or are you also sad or anything else? (I wondered about this because in my case, new insights tend to make me very sad as I'm still in the process of mourning my childhood and what could have been.) Your case seems in some ways more complicated than mine because you also had a father in your familiy where I only had my mother (but that was quite enough   ) and the occasional stepdad. I'm glad you were able to mentally separate yourself from your parents 'cause that's a difficult and yet very important part of healing I think.

Wishing you the best 

Oh Harri.

I am standing and applauding you so hard right now. you are SO brave. You are tenacious and feisty and full of life and laugh and crazy ... .and you are so so beautiful.

I can't believe how you try and struggle and want and never EVER give up. You are such an inspiration to me.

Yes you are doing the exact right thing in telling it. It's all been locked up in your heart and soul and crushing you with the weight of your sick sick mother and your hopeless helpless useless father. Yeah I said it. And I'll say it again.

I wish you could know that most abused children harbour much - much more rage at the weak ineffectual parent who let them down. Who failed to protect them from the monstrous beast they chose to marry. And for you, dear Harri, quadruple betrayal.

Where was the loving mother to gently sweetly wash your hair, care for you, hold your hand tell you how beautiful you are, how courageous how loving?

Where was the strong caring protective father to tell you how much he loved his little girl - how special she was how grand, how much potential?

No.

They didn't just let you down they thoroughly indoctrinated you into believing it was YOUR. FAULT.

It's despicable. I can't word it strongly enough.

Damn them.

DAMN them for doing that to you.

I am just OUTRAGED.

The abuse was bad enough. And you know, let's call it what it is  - it's rape. Pure and simple. Rape of innocence and beauty and a life that should have had laughter, love, flowers, peace and soft sweetness.

You have no reason to be embarrassed harri.

In fact I recommend saying it again and again and you will start to find some of those words lose their power.

Your experience MATTERS. Your voice MATTERS. You have every right to say your story and there's not a human with a heart who would not thoroughly denounce the evil in your home that brought you to this.

And now I will bring some technical stuff in.

You have been severely traumatised for a prolonged period of time by the people who should have cared for you. You were betrayed in the worst possible way by the worst possible people in the worst possible situation. More double whammies.

In your experiences you had entwined the voices of your mother and the indifference of your father into these voices that keep on harassing you.

I can tell how they harassed you by hearing the way you harass yourself. I hope you can learn that these voices are NOT YOURS. They are adopted through the noise to ensure your survival in a home that didn't want you. or when it did, was for all the wrong reasons.

You couldn't tell your parents to stop  because then as now you are scared that you'll die if you do.

Put all the logic and rational thought you want on it, my friend but that feeling you feel? Those bullets of adrenaline? That throat squeezing, lung squashing spine shaking feeling? That's death. And your heart knows it surely as your head doesn't.

As far as enjoying the pleasurable sensations of sexual congress - knowing it is the wrong person doesn't prevent that. I was molested at 11 and whilst it was not a family member and it frightened and disgusted me, it formed the basis of many sexual fantasies later in my life. And you know what? i am no longer ashamed of that. because it's NORMAL. It's just how human brains and bodies work.

And so death and sex and longing for love and living in pain and shame and blame and guilt all get intertwined and grow into the tree that becomes ourselves.

Some of those branches are welded together. It takes time and patience to cut them away and it bleeds. It hurts. And we berate ourselves for not doing it sooner.

But we couldn't.

Because we weren't READY.

If I could wish one wish for you Harri, besides the obvious it would be for you to understand that you are ashamed of being ashamed.

If I would suggest some things that might help? Maybe embrace the fact that you are ashamed of being ashamed.

It's the key to the start. it's ok to feel lousy. To feel worthless and used and no good to anybody. It's just the start.

If you can say it's ok to feel every single damn thing you are feeling you may unlock your heart to yourself.

Begin to give yourself the love your parents should have taught you how to give yourself. And that starts with saying "Yes I feel like i am (____) (insert harassment of choice here!)

It's a first step towards peace.

On a practical level one therapist recommends writing a letter to your mother. Say whatever you want. It's not for her, it's for you.

Then write to your father.

And then a letter to your poor sweet little self - at 5 or 12 or 30 and see what you have to say.

And maybe write a letter back from 5 or 12 or 30 and see how you would reply.

Be detailed or be vague.

harangue yourself or soothe yourself - or do all of that.

Whatever you like.

And then write a fairy story where you're the heroine. The Princess locked in a dark castle with an evil witch who brings the Plague. And a ghost of a king who barely exists. only this time you rewrite the script. How the Princess escapes the Plague and flies out in a rocket ship or somesuch.

It's your story Harri. It deserves to be told, if only to you.

And I am so impressed you didn't injure your parents. i sure want to.  

Ok <steps off soapbox>

i hope you will let us know what you find out

Zig

Harri,

I was trying to formulate a response, and then Zigiddy said everything I wanted to say and much better than I ever could have. You go, Zigiddy!

Your parents are completely and totally responsible for everything that happened. And you "allowing" the behavior to continue into your 30's just highlights how effectively you'd been victimized and brainwashed to accept the abuse. I believe that's called learned helplessness. And your mother buying a gun to protect herself from your "abusiveness" towards her? (translation - completely justifiable outrage at being raped and desperate attempt at self-defense) Un.be.liev.able. That's a mindf*&% of the highest order - or lowest, depending on how you look at it.

I know I'm new here and don't really know you, and I hope I'm not being presumptuous in responding to your post, but I couldn't hold back, my outrage on your behalf is so strong. I'm glad you shared, and considering all that you've come through, I believe you will have much to teach me. Thank you!

-ITN-

Hi!  I keep trying to respond and every time I log in to do so I find other things to read or I daydream or I instantly want to fall asleep!   :)  See, I want to report how I am feeling and that I have had a major healing and I am cured but I can't.    I am not really sure how I am feeling other than being tired.  That usually happens to me after a big emotional upheaval so I am not surprised.  Right now I am not sure if there is some avoidance mixed in with that tiredness either.  Too soon to tell, but I will keep poking around.  I also don't believe or expect there will ever be a time when I am done healing.  As much as I may want that, I can't imagine a time where memories/anger/outrage/sadness will not rise up within me and need to be felt and then released.  I am a bit sad about that, but it is doable too.

I keep wondering if I was/am enmeshed with my father?  Is that why I have so confused the emotions and have done all that projection of him onto me?  When I try to figure it out I get all confused.  Then I have to wonder if my trying to figure it out is me avoiding the feelings by trying to engage my intellect.  <sighs>

Polly, thank you for this--->
It makes sense.  One thing I have realized is that it is more than just habit.  My thoughts and emotions are too mixed up for it to be otherwise, though I think habit plays a big role.  I am going to use your suggestions as they make sense to me.  Thank you.  We'll see what comes out!

You asked how I feel when I have a break though and mainly I get tired.  I could sleep about 15 hours a day for a couple of days.  Fortunately I am in a position to be able to do that right now.  It makes sense that you feel sad Polly.  It is sad and what happened to you is horrible.  Being sad is appropriate even though it is not pleasant.   Just sit with it.  I does get better (said by a person who still does her best to avoid it!)

Ziggiddy, you ... .ummm... .thank you.  I don't even know what I am feeling when I read your words.  Is this what being accepted and liked for just being me is like?  I don't know what to call it, but I do know I like it.  It feels warm and comforting.  I feel supported.  :)efended even.  I am going to tap into the outrage you expressed and use it as an example of a healthy response... .something to shoot for as I get more comfortable embracing this big sharp jagged pokey mess, or, as you suggested just a piece of it.  The fact that I am ashamed for being ashamed.  I have to think more on that... .or maybe feel it... .not sure yet!

When you say the voices are not mine and are a product of the environment I grew up in and are, specifically a survival mechanism, I feel hopeful that I can silence them.  I think I can look at them as a learned behavior... .and I can deal with that and correct it.  Am I thinking about that right?  (I have to say that sometimes the negative voices in my head say such dumb and outlandish stuff that I tell myself to shut up.  I am sure that is not productive but it seems to hush them for a while.  They are persistent beggars though.  Also, i am sure verbal abuse is not the best way to stop them.   )  Yesterday and today I have been responding back to them and defending me against them by saying things I would if they were harassing a friend.  Yeah... .I assume people reading this get what kind of voices I am talking about.  Not the ones where they come in wearing white coats to drag me off to the looney bin and put me in an uncomfortable jacket.  The other voices!

Zig, thank you for sharing about the sex stuff.  I am so sorry you experienced that but so thankful that you shared.  It makes a difference.  Though I have reached a certain level of acceptance with the fact that my body responded to it, I haven't reached the point of acceptance that you have with how it has shaped your fantasies but at least now I know that being okay with it all is a reasonable goal.  I am sure others will benefit from reading that too.  


I am going to remember this Zig.  Thank you.  I am also going to write the letters like you suggested and I will most definitely share what I find.  Thanks for the direction.  Without the help I get from you and everyone here it is so difficult to find a starting point and I waste an awful lot of time being indecisive.  And here I go again trying to find the fast track through this... .though i think I have learned this time around that ultimately that too is a waste of time.  

ITN, thank you.  Thank you for posting.  I am grateful you took the time to respond and I don't care how new you or anyone else is.  I am always grateful when people listen, advise, support, etc.  Chances are, we will probably learn a lot from each other, though i do hope my story or at least some of the lessons I have learned make a difference for someone.  Otherwise, what would be the point?  

Hi Harri,

I wanted you to know I'm listening too and just want to scoop up little Harri and rescue her... .you know there are a lot of rescuer types on this web site right? 

I want to encourage you to keep writing sometimes the most interesting and enlightening things fall on to the page.  I want to encourage you t keep writing just to get it out.  I want to encourage you to keep writing because there is wisdom among the collective "us" that you might find helpful.  I want to encourage you to keep writing because I care, your story needs to be told and you matter.

I also want to encourage you to cry all you want... .let it out and when you're done sleep and regain that strength to come out and fight those demons again.

You're a tough cookie Harri... .okay maybe with a soft center... .but still  *)

Panda, thank you.  You made me smile.  I think little Harri would very much like a hug from a panda!  I had to laugh when you said I am a tough cookie.  I instantly pictured a double stuff oreo!  Perfect!  You made me cry too.  It is good to be heard.  Thank you for that as well.  Time and again, I am floored by the compassion and acceptance I have received here.   

Crumbling stumbling blocks, insights and thoughts in no particular order:

~  If I can say my brain works differently as a result of the abuse and the environment I was in for over 30 years, does that 'excuse' anything?  Can I use that to justify why I stayed and tolerated it for so long?  What about the fact that my mother can say the same thing if she were alive   and aware of how her behavior was not normal (according to her, she was fine but I was the problem).  Chances are, I would probably be able to trace the dysfunction back for generations on both sides.  I guess my point is everyone, including the borderlines who got that way through abuse can say the same thing.

All the brain damage thing does is help me to understand and make peace with myself ... .and cut myself some slack when looking at my past.

~  I feel like I have freed myself from my father, if not completely, at least quite a bit.  It is strange because when I started this thread I thought it was going to be about my mother only to find my father at the root of this particular round with these memories.  I had been holding back on writing this because it seemed to me to be steeped in drama since I had posted about some of this before.  I did not understand why I felt such a strong pull to do so once again.   It makes sense now when I see how I was putting myself in the same group as my father and seeing myself as just as weak and as messed up as he was.

~  I did not realize that many people who were sexually abused are more angry with the 'weak ineffectual parent who let them down' (thank you for the words Ziggiddy).  I have had people (close-isn friends) tell me they can sense the anger in me and I have a feeling it is the anger I had been directing towards myself instead of my father.  I think it will be interesting to see if there is a noticeable difference in how I speak and respond to people now whether here or in real life.

~  Kwamina asked
I have been trying to understand the fear I felt.  His lips... .the mouth.  So hard and cold and wet... .it does not make a whole lot of sense to me as he would only ever kiss me on my cheek as I had always been able to turn away.  Or he would kiss me on the top of my head because I often ducked down, hugging him to escape his mouth.  I can't really make sense of it.  Maybe there is no sense to be found and it just is what it is but when I write that my gut is telling me there is more to it.  I guess I have more poking to do.   

I did discover that part of the fear is fear of the future.  If I work through this I have to find a new baseline.  It is like I wrote to someone here, once awareness comes there is no going back, at least not without conscious denial and that seems to be a sure fire way to insanity.  So with awareness it becomes a do or die sort of situation with death being inertia of Self while the world around me gets darker and darker.  I believe that we sometimes hold onto or even build our fear as a defense.  Fear allows us to stay in our safe comfort zone no matter how painful that comfort zone may be.  After all, if I am too scared to look and to work this through, I don't have to change and I don't have to take risks.  The thing is, I don't want more dysfunction or fear or insanity.  So i guess that means I get to walk along with my fear and makes friends with it.  BTW, fear has taken on a whole new meaning ever since Dr. Who explained that fear is a super power.   *)

~  I had not looked at how I was terrified of my mothers gun too and how that fear shaped my responses or played a big role in my not stopping the abuse.  I just never made that connection.  It seems obvious now.  That connection helps to put my behavior in context.  I realize I was looking at my behaviors in isolation.  I am reminded though when my ex used to tell me his behaviors did not occur in a vacuum and how he used that to hide his behaviors and point the blame finger on me.  I am not sure what the difference is though.  I am a bit tangled here in my thinking. 

Hello Hari found this on shame I think people with BPD for one reason have this toxic shame embbeded within them an for one reason or another they are very good at transfering it to those around them ( it may be even subcociously on purpose if you know what I mean ) the upside is I think if you dont have BPD you can overcome it as many people here have done an are working on it this is the first paragraph or two of an article you may find interesting I guess you are familiar with the concept but it may help others best of luck

Healing Toxic Shame: How Do I Get Rid of It? (Part One) by Meg | posted in: Toxic Shame | 7

By now, you know as much as I could pack into these articles about what toxic shame is, where you get it, and what it does to the way you feel, think and behave. Now I want to talk about how you can begin to heal. This article will reference material from earlier in the series, so I don’t suggest you begin with this one. Particularly, it will assume you read the previous one, which introduces what I call the Shaming Voice, but if you want to begin at the beginning, start here.

Healing toxic shame is the hardest self-help work there is, and so this article is quite long. In fact, it ended up being so long, I broke it into two posts. This one will be entirely about learning to externalize and fight the Shaming Voice, while the second deals with everything else required to piece back together a self broken by toxic shame.

If you mean to really take healing seriously, you’ll need John Bradshaw’s Healing the Shame that Binds You, and/or a qualified therapist. Healing toxic shame is a serious endeavor, and this article is no substitute for having an expert at your side (in the form of a book, or a person).

Before any attempt at healing can begin, there must be a support system in place. Toxic shame is the result of having shame-based parents who lied to us about ourselves, and who were not dependable. To do toxic shame work is to face those needs and finally get them met. A support system outside the self is necessary for this. What you must do to be able to proceed with healing is transfer your dependency needs to people who can actually meet them. Though eventually, you will be an independent and healthy adult, capable of meeting all her own needs, that’s not where you are now. To get there, you must open up to others, and ask for help. You must put your trust in a non-shaming friend, spouse, support group or therapist capable of listening, giving you honest and non-shaming feedback, and unwavering support.

This level of intimacy is hard for shame-based people, but there is no way to heal without this support. Logistically, finding this person/group can be hard because many toxically shamed people seek out adult relationships with other shame-based people; perhaps your spouse and friends are not healthy enough to help you. But that’s okay. Join a support group or a 12-step group (which Bradshaw highly recommends). Begin to see a therapist you can trust. There are people out there in the world who can love and help you. Make sure, before you begin the work below, that you have at least one of them in your life.

So, once you’ve got your support system in place, how do you begin? Bradshaw says:

  To heal our toxic shame we must come out of hiding. As long as our shame is hidden, there is nothing we can do about it. In order to change our toxic shame we must embrace it. There is an old therapeutic adage that states, “The only way out is through.”

  Embracing our shame involves pain. Pain is what we try to avoid. In fact, most of our neurotic behavior is due to the avoidance of legitimate pain. We try to find an easier way. This is perfectly reasonable.

  In the case of shame, the more we avoid it, the worse it gets. We cannot change our “internalized” shame until we “externalize” it.

this extract from the following article may also be interesting shari shriber salt to the wound The toughest part of having gotten tangled up with a borderline disordered individual, is that they always leave you with toxic shame. Borderlines have an uncanny ability to get you to open-up, be vulnerable and trust them. You generally feel pretty safe at the beginning--which may be because they're so frank with you, due to their lack of boundaries! You think to yourself; "gee, if they're so revealing about themselves, maybe it's okay for me to be, too." A sincere person naturally inspires our trust--but the Borderline can play-act at sincerity, and then drop you on your head without remorse or conscience.

Thank you SlyQQ, I appreciate the articles and the term toxic shame.  I have heard it hundreds of times, but again, I never linked it to me (talk about denial!).  Thank you for giving me another healing tool to use.   :)

I actually did this, it was scary and empowering. Although the fears I faced were probably very different than yours. Mine were very irrational and I bet yours are very rational.

My mantra was: "Have you ever looked fear in the face and just said, I just don't care" -Pink

I was in a co-dependent marriage with an alcoholic for almost 20 years and the last 5 I had sunk into full blown depression.  I basically went to work and came home.  As I began to think about leaving my marriage I realized I would have to do a lot of things I hadn't done in a long time or not at all.  So I made myself do them.

My anxiety was around social situations and logistics/car.

I began by going to dinner with a couple girlfriends from work at a restaurant I hadn't been to before and that I had to find parking for (I still don't like parking... .will I find it?... .will I drive around looking for it forever?... .will I be paying a person?... .will I pay a machine?... .will have to parallel park?... .totally ludacris right?  lol  Anyway once I got comfortable with a couple people then we then added spouses in the mix (I had forgotten how great men are, they are truly wonderful creatures  ), then I went with a friend to a party where I knew no one else. Every step was scary and stressful but once I did it I was more confident and more comfortable.  Social situations still make me nervous because I'm an introverted person but the fear is no where near the level it once was.

Now should I tell you about my irrational fear of the auto mechanic or how at 47 I pumped my first gas?

With all my fear surrounding cars you'd thing my first one was Christine!  :)

Anyway Harri what I'm trying to say is that facing fear is hard but it is well worth it.

Hi Panda!  Haha on the Christine reference!  I am glad you were able to work through the fear and build confidence in yourself... and you got to remember how greats guys are (I agree!)  Mostly though, I am glad you got out of what sounds like a really bad situation.  

I like the way you broke things down to manageable levels.  I have to keep reminding myself I am not in a race.  I have done that before and thought I was all done.  I am finally accepted that healing and overcoming fear will be a lifelong process, but I know it gets easier as I get more tools to help me and as I build confidence.

So I wasn't exactly sure how to make friends with my fear or my shame.  I mean I have done inner child work and learned to talk well with little Harri but I lost touch with her.  Even now I only see small glimpses of her.  Mostly what I get now is Harri around the age of 12 (maybe 11) and I know why.  That was a particularly scary and painful time and that was when I chose to assume the tough kid role with a really bad attitude to hide my fear and shame.  Anyway, I don't really know how to talk to a 12 year old.  I tried to google stuff on it but I did not come across anything particularly helpful, as in with examples!  How am I supposed to demonstrate understanding and acceptance and love when I have never had good examples of those things?  What do they sound like?  I figured it out for younger kids through my work and watching friends parent their kids.  How do you reach a troubled 12 year old especially one who is hellbent on proving she is bad?

Oh yeah, I haven't written the letters as suggested by Ziggiddy.  I will and I want to... .but right now I am avoiding.  

ETA:  I am inserting a link on healing toxic shame that I came across thanks to SlyQQ as I do not want to lose it:  www.strugglinghero.com/healing-toxic-shame-what-is-toxic-shame/

I did read a thread over on the Personal Inventory board titled debilitating shame.  I could relate so well, especially to that unrelenting negative, belittling, sneering and snarling hellish mother voice that is ever present and gives a running commentary on every move and thought no matter how insignificant.  The poster talked about embracing and talking gently and kindly to the voice and learning to like it and maybe even love it.  It makes sense because I did come to see my mother as a small helpless and scared little person several years ago.  That realization was a breakthrough but it was also quite devastating to realize how much power I thought she had all those years only to see a tiny little girl full of pain and hurt behind the Queen and the Witch.  It took a while to embrace that truth.  I am not sure I want to make friends with this voice.   I keep seeing a kid with black souls eyes... .it scares me.  Then I wonder if I am using my fear to stop myself from doing something that can potentially help me.  I guess I have to makes friends with that fear as well and then maybe I can embrace that voice.

I also have a better handle on what guilt is and how it differs from shame and toxic shame thanks to some John Bradshaw videos on youtube.  His series "Healing the Shame that Binds You" explained the difference.  

Shame or healthy shame is the same as what we would term humility.  It lets us know we don't know everything.

Guilt is more about behaviors as in "What I did was bad".  Lying, stealing, etc  Guilt can be 'fixed' through actions like apologizing, paying restitution, etc.

Toxic Shame is when that becomes internalized and it sounds like "I am flawed, no good and bad"  The only way to heal toxic shame is to stop hiding it.  So,

Hello, my name is Harri and I am a victim of incest and emotional abuse.

God writing that was hard.  Not surprisingly, it pissed me off too.  I'll be damned if I let that define me though.  It's already taken too damn much from me.

I can look back and see so many of the shaming behaviors my mother had and how that influenced me.  Not allowing me to have a negative feeling without telling me I am bad or even her smothering neglect in that everything was about her even when she appeared to be so caring and concerned.  Never mind all the other stuff that caused shame.  Looking back, I guess I never really had a chance.  I think considering all things, it is amazing I do not have more problems than I do.  I think my fathers behaviors just reinforced my mothers.  I don't remember specifics in terms of what he would say to cause shame, but I think the way he would kiss me... .I think some might call it incest too.  Not as extreme like Kwamina said, but still not good at all.  I was a bit shocked to hear Dr. Bradshaw refer to things like that as incest.  It made me cry.  Little Harri really never did have a chance to come out healthy and whole, but she sure was a strong kid.

It is so frustrating to hear a parent or someone say "Yes I know her father is mentally ill, but she loves him" or "My son is so close to his mother" as if that actually proves the parent is a good parent and would never hurt them.  **In isolation** those things mean nothing.  Children are programmed to be like that from the moment of birth.  It is survival.  It is so easy to miss the bigger picture when you see what appears to be love or even is love but the twisted kind... .and you miss the important stuff.  I cringe to think of how often I heard my father tell me my mother loved me, as if that proved something.  I know my mother loved me and I know my father did too.  It does not mean the love was healthy and it certainly does not mean they were good parents.  I loved my mother and still do.  I can't and won't deny it as I believe denying or burying love is just as damaging as denying and burying anger.  The love I felt for my mother says nothing about her and her ability to parent or about what kind of person she was.  But what can you do?  You can't prevent people from having kids.  

Kids are resilient... .right?

You certainly are :)

I would ask these questions in relation to that, harri: first, do you think your mother had a choice to do what she did to you? Second, did she have the freedom to try and understand her own background? Third, if you'd had a daughter would you do that to her?

The answers may seem obvious to you - that is an indication of the level of freedom of will that of each of us has access to.

Do you think your mother went through the same feelings of shame and self flagellation that you do?


Harri you are going to have to go over this ground again and again in order to desensitise yourself as well as to explore yourself and to inevitably redefine yourself in light of new understanding

You are overturning deeply entrenched things. the roots go down waaaay deep and are a tangled mass.

One thing leads to another. It's okay. Eventually you'll be able to navigate those paths through the forest and know where they lead.

I very much believe your father is as much of a problem for your self esteem as your mother.

Kids have great instincts - if his kisses felt wrong then they WERE wrong. We know the difference even if we try and rationalise it away.

I would encourage you to post about your father separately.

You have several lines of healing going all at once. it is worth listing them to yourself so you can see just how many an how messy the issues are- emotional, mental and physical abuse - abuse that happened form a very young age, complex post trauma struggles, sexual abuse, child sexual abuse, neglect, lies, deception etc etc

Any one of those things would be enough to knock you off your perch .

I think too you recently had some health issues which tapped onto your hatred of being dependent.

Dear me. All this. Too harsh.


You're welcome, Harri. It makes more sense if you think of it in line with kids who survived abuse with one parent intact. They have so much better opportunity at accessing reality. Two parents who are messed up and deceiving you? How small your chances suddenly become to penetrating the truth.

The material on Toxic shame that SlyQQ suggested is very very good. I also recommend you look into the book Toxic Parents by Susan Forward. That's where I pulled the letter writing exercise from. She also has a chapter devoted to CSA. it's available to read online as a PDF I think.



Hello, my name is Harri and I am a victim of incest and emotional abuse.

keep on writing it. Say it out loud. own it. Claim it. it is your right and as you come to own it you will see that your parents are completely to blame for it.[/quote]

Harri,

You go girl!  |iiii

It is exciting watching you grow. Rest when you need to. All those new brain pathways are doing lots of work! Here's to you!

I remember as a child how adults who hadn't seen me in a long time would say, "My, look at how much you've grown!"  :) That's you, growing and changing at warp speed, even though you don't realize it.

Wools

Awww Wools, thank you for saying that!  You are right.  I don't realize it.  As a matter of fact,  I *feel* like I have gone a bit backwards so your encouragement really hit the spot!  Thanks for stopping in to visit too!

SlyQQ, thank you.  I am reading more and more about toxic shame thanks to your information.  More importantly, I am letting myself grieve.

Ziggiddy, I actually had a hard time answering the questions you asked regarding free will and the choices my mother made.  Ha, I just deleted all the stuff I wrote in answer each question because ultimately what it boils down to is that she did have choices.  She was abused in many of the same ways I was only for her, it was even more complicated by the fact that she had an absent alcoholic father and was born in the late 30's when things like mental illness were hidden.  I think she had other labels that could apply to her though.  She also had several episodes that I would call psychotic breaks that were never dealt with by doctors.  I guess none of the details really matter.  She was not helpless, she was not cognitively impaired, and no one was forcing her to do these things. 


I am going to write them on my board!  :)  Seriously, I think it would be interesting to list them and then do a flow chart or some such thing.  It would certainly help me to focus.  I sometimes get all confused not knowing which particular part I am poking at, it is all so jumbled. 

Thanks for the book suggestion.  I am going to order it tonight.  As for a separate post about my father, I will try.  I had started one a while back but I got uncomfortable talking about him while surrounded by non fathers.  Haha, I may have to write a disclaimer at the start like I did with this one.  "Reader Beware!"


I can't say it out loud yet.  I have been working on just seeing the word victim in relation to me. 

Hi Harri,

We haven't had the chance to meet yet, but I just found your thread today, and have read it with interest.

I'm sorry you're dealing with all of this -- but it is very encouraging to see you doing it. You are actively dealing with this stuff -- which is the way out of it.

Your story is a tough one -- it's courageous of you to share it with us. I'm impressed by your level of self-awareness -- I can tell you've already done a LOT of work on this before you even landed here at bpdfamily. You're a heck of a writer, too -- it's not easy to share this kind of deep, personal stuff without losing yourself in the feelings and going overboard -- I know I've done it at times!

I just wanted to make one comment. I think you're making tremendous progress -- and I hope you can tap into how much of a major accomplishment that is. You aren't doing easy work here -- it's hard, it's painful, it's terrifying -- and you're facing it head on, objectively and even gracefully.

I think you're definitely onto something big when you talk about learning how to embrace your fear and walk with it. Yes! Because while the fear is real, think of it's source. It happened long ago, and it was caused by external people and situations. You couldn't grasp that then, but you do now. Consider that the fear that remains is leftover from when you needed that warning system to survive. Your situation is different now. Your fear has roots in the past, but you exist in the present.

Also -- 


Yes, Harri -- yes it has. The impact of what happened to you in the past took a lot from you.

What do we know about the past?

Hello again Harri,  

There is SO MUCH in this thread... .And wow - you have my respect for being so courageous to deal with all this!

I want to encourage you - little by little, you are getting to know better the beautiful, kind and sweet Harri that's been within you all along. The one who is resilient, strong and resourceful, but also profoundly feminine. The one who is safe now.

As you talk to the 12 year old, invite her over to your place. Tell her she will be safe there, that she can sleep soundly that her bedroom is her sanctuary and that nobody will be allowed in. Maybe you can just sit quietly together for a while, see what she has to say... .

Turn the anger into new ways to protect Harri. Turn the sadness into tears that will cleanse your soul and wash away the shame that doesn't belong to you but rather to your mother and your father... . 

It is a boat load to deal with Harri, and I would recommend connecting with a therapist who specializes in this kind of trauma - she/he could probably help you navigate the healing map better than we can (even though we are here to support you no matter what).

The thing about "brain damage" - I don't think it's damage in your case - just some wiring that someone evil people messed with badly way back. The good news is - by different use, we can re-wire our brain and make it into a pretty different (healed) brain - the sky is the limit Harri, and it is your right to claim it.

As I read your story, I kept remembering the book "Rachel - Get Me Out Of Here" by Rachel Reiland (while the author is different from you because she suffered from BPD, her story is similar in the ways of abuse she endured and I think it might bring some healing to you to read about her sessions with her therapist and what he had to say to that and how he helped her overcome it and how he gently and lovingly supported her through it all)... .

I have full faith in you that in the future, your statement will read:

Hello, my name is Harri, I was a victim of incest and emotional abuse; and I have found healing from trauma that nobody should ever experience.

I am cheering for you, friend, you are a precious person.

Hi Harri what you is doing is incredible hard it is easy to throw yourself into it head down an lose track of everything else breathe and relax just remember its a beautiful world out there take some time to yourself to see the good things in life and in people remember your goals , peace an joy you deserve this more than anyone i have seen here

Hi Harri,

Wow, you're making such good and rapid progress!  |iiii I've been away from the forum for a couple of days and now look at all the things you have realised in the meantime. I'm so happy for you. I don't know where to start to reply to everything... .I think you've made a very big step by seeing yourself as a victim of abuse. Harri, you weren't to blame... .but your parents were. 

Keep us posted   your journey is amazing.

Hi again Harri


Perhaps you don't have to say anything at all to her, just be there for 12 year old Harri. Sit with her, look at her and truly try to see her and accept her. Then take her hand and lead her to a safe place.


It is true that you were abused by your parents, accepting this reality isn't an easy thing to do at all. But this label of victim doesn't tell your whole story and to me has never defined you. You WERE a victim but you ARE a survivor. And now you're working very hard to grow from survivor to thriver. If you don't believe me, just take a look at the Survivor's Guide for adults who suffered childhood abuse  It seem like you're on your way so now we can also apply a new label to you: 'thriver in progress'  I'd say most people on here (myself included) are thrivers in progress, still dealing wit a lot of pain but trying to work through it as best we can.


I agree, denying how you feel is just like denying reality and that won't help you at all. There's no shame in loving someone, this just shows how much love you always had inside of you. Even after all you've been through, you still have more love to give :) And I also noticed that when you first came here, you right away started helping and supporting others and that also shows how much love you still have to give |iiii

I totally agree with that !

Hello there Harri:

It is so easy to look back and do the "why didn't I?" stop this or that.    But how can someone do that when they are caught up in it from childhood and that is all they have ever known?    What is beautiful is that shame means you have this clear awareness now that what happened to you is wrong.  But shame is the response (short term).    Once you see into the cause of the shame (higher awareness) you have learned and grown and overcome a disfunctional situation that many people do not have to face.   Maybe if you can see the feeling of shame as a step in the healing process and now say "okay - I feel shame - but it's because now I see so clearly what was wrongly done to me".     You were a victim and not a participating victim.    You took no action to harm anyone.  You were harmed.    

Shame can heal into an acceptance of what has happened to you.   Accept and realize that now your heart and own mind and body continues to heal.    Surround yourself with the support you need and live your life with new wisdom of knowing how people should treat one another.  

I wish you much "healthy" love in your life & big hugs to you in your path of awareness & healing.

I never thought of it like that funfunctional. What a great insight!

Shame as an indicator that something is wrong. Pain as an indicator that your heart knows you are blaming the wrong person - namely yourself.

this opens up some great possibilities

Yes -- and guilt, in a well-regulated mind, as an alert that our own behavior choices may be misguided or thoughtless.

Hi.  I keep coming back to this thread and then turning away.  It hurts and I feel raw and I have just been sitting with those feelings.  It's okay but I don't like it, not even a little bit.  Thankfully, liking the feelings is not a prerequisite for moving through.  

Eyvindr, thanks for introducing yourself!  It is nice to meet you.   :) You said I am dealing with this objectively and gracefully and I appreciate that, but I don't see it.  I am so angry and frustrated and hurt and I am full of resentment.  I've spent a lot of time trying to get used to walking with these feelings without letting them control me.  I've done okay with that walk though they do escape sometimes, but I want to let go of them.  I can't keep carrying them with me anymore.  
It's over and what worked to my advantage back then is no longer necessary or useful and in fact, those things are now causing me harm.  

I keep thinking Hey! I am 49 years old and I 'should' be so much farther ahead... .and then i remember I was still living with my parents until about 2004- believe it or not, I can't remember exactly when i broke away- but when I force myself to look at it as ~11 years, it seems a bit more acceptable to me, as if I am still developing emotionally.  haha, talk about arrested development!  And when i look back at where I was, I do see that I have done a lot of work, so thanks for saying that it is obvious.  I have.  It is all too easy to get bogged down in the present and lose sight of the progress I have made.

Pessim-Optim, I don't really have the words to respond  You said:
 that made me bawl my eyes out.  Between your words and Ziggiddy's, and really everyone who has joined me here but especially you both (Kwamina, I will get to you later on!   ), I have been through a couple boxes of tissues.  Thanks so much... .  +    I did not understand why your words elicited such a response... .it was sort of like they hurt, but I realize it is not just that they hurt but it is because a part of me desperately wants to believe those things are true and that I am good and kind and loving... and feminine.  That last one makes me pause a bit.   It does not fit at all with my bad-a*s false self.  For now I keep reminding myself it does not mean I have to wear high heels or pink flowery crap.   :)  (yeah, I definitely need to work on my idea of what it means to be feminine!)

I am going to look for a T.  I definitely need some more guidance.  Oh yeah, I wanted to clarify too.  "Brain damage" is my term.  Ziggiddy did describe the process as re-building neural networks too... .but the brain damage part kind of amused me!  I did not grasp the difference though---> damage is generally structurally based and less likely to be fixed whereas messed up wiring seems seems more doable.  It also gives me a more positive way to frame the work I am doing.  Thank you for pointing that out.  I want to grasp the belief that 'the sky's the limit' and never let it go.  Right now, I can sort of grab it, but it is like my hands are too slippery with garbage to hold on to it for any length of time.  I will keep working on it.  

Kwamina, between you and Pessim-O I feel less intimidated when it comes to spending time with 12 year old Harri.  Your input has taken the pressure off and it made me realize there really are no words to be said, at least not right now.  She just needs a friend and protector to hang out with and remind her she is safe now.  As for being a thriver in progress, you have told me that before and I skipped right over it.  I think I was ready to hear it this time around though as I am far less resistant to the word victim in relation to my past (though i am not sure I want to actually use that word--- I still don't like it)  And yeah, I did check the Survivor's Guide to double check your assessment!  I concede... .   Thank you.

As for what you said to me about my capacity to love... .that is a guaranteed way to bring me to my knees.  I want that to be true too.  I want to be able to show that without holding back in fear, anticipating having to give payment that destroys me.  It is terrifying.  I never thought of what I write here as being a measure of the love I have inside me though.  Thank you for saying that and letting me know you see love in me.  It is more important to me than you can imagine.

Funfunctional, thank you for an alternative and more workable view of shame.  
Wow.  This makes so much sense and makes it so much easier to embrace the shame.  My instinct is still to cringe away, but thanks to the new perspective, I can do this.  I can also see myself putting the shame and responsibility on my parents rather than me.  I have so much hope for my future!

And this from Eyvindr
is definitely going to be incorporated into my understanding of guilt/shame/blame.

thanks everyone!

What do you think is preventing you from letting go of these feelings?


So you skipped right over it? Good thing I'm a parrot, we just keep repeating the same words over and over again until we get through to you :)


I understand your fear Harri. Could it perhaps be that this fear is what's keeping you from letting go of all the anger, frustration and resentment?

When you've lived a certain way for very long it can indeed be very scary to explore new territories. The grey meadows or the light? There's a huge difference between them but also one similarity: your love still shines through. You were able to light up the grey meadows for many other members here |iiii And to me that indeed is a glorious and undeniable sign of the love and compassion you have inside of you Harri

I think Kwamina asks a good question (what stands in your way)?

Our feelings are there for a reason - once we realize we are having a feeling, it informs us about our life, and together with our thinking mind it allows us to make good informed decisions.

The problem with feelings from the past is that they inform us about unresolved problems. Sometimes it is a matter realizing something and grieving a loss. Sometimes it is an indicator of a past problem that is a source of a present problem. Once we make the connection, accept the reality and make a path toward a solution, the emotion is not necessary any more and it slowly goes away.

I used to be "stuck" in feelings of anger and resentment towards my parents because my past experiences with them created losses and missed opportunities in my adult life, and misshaped my personality in ways that were not helpful. I was angry for a good reason. But as long as I kept looking towards the past, the anger did not change and neither did I.

It was much later that I discovered what you already know as well: that we can change, and that we can heal and that yes, out past may have robbed us in many ways, but that life can get better and that freedom is within our reach.

As I traveled on my journey toward healing (changing my dysfunctional patterns of behavior), with all of the changes and little victories, I slowly started leaving the angry feelings behind. They were no longer necessary - my past wasn't causing me harm in the present any more.

Does that make sense?

Sometimes it's a simple matter of insight and grieving over a loss:

In reading the "Rachel - Get Me Out Of Here" book I realized that I too had similar recurrent dreams of being lost in unsafe buildings, with staircases leading nowhere or elevators that were teetering and threatening to fall... .

It led me to the profound realization that as a child, I felt lost, alone and unsafe and that my life then was going nowhere. And that the recurrent dreams were an expression of that. 

With surprise I told my husband about that discovery, and broke down in uncontrollable sobs. I cried and grieved my childhood loneliness and fear right then. For some reason, that was it for me. With that realization/insight those dreams went away, and while I understand that my childhood was that way, somehow, having realized and grieved over that and that I am safe now has allowed me to leave those feelings behind.

I am not a trained therapist, so I do not have an answer for you, but it seems to me that the question is: what do you need to work through your feelings? Insights about the past or how it has influenced you in the present (your coping skills that helped in childhood but no longer helpful), solutions or how-tos? Anything else?

This capacity to love (another great reminder of the Rachel book and her therapist btw) it IS true, Harri. 

When we have grown up with and been dependent on and loved people who were not safe, it makes sense that we connect love with pain and are weary of showing love. Only healing, new behaviors and very good boundaries can protect us from making ourselves vulnerable to unsafe people over and over again. Perhaps that fear serves as a safety buffer for now?

It can also be the fear of new/unknown as Kwamina mentioned - that part of fear is not healthy as it keeps us from growing.

How can you nurture yourself to grow in showing love in safe situations that will make little Harri feel good, confident and protected?

Hi Kwamina and Pessim-O I have been coming back to respond, writing and then deleting.  I kept writing a whole bunch of reasons that justify the the anger, resentment and frustration I feel.   Heh, so I am justified dammit!  The good news is I think the fact that I can see and express reasons for those feelings means I really have fully accepted that I *was* a victim    The bad news is that I found a small part of me that wants to wallow in it all.    

I do think there are a couple of other things going on as well.  One is that I think there is more to be uncovered and processed, at least in terms of my father.  The haze and confusion regarding him is lifting.  I keep seeing his mouth coming at me and feeling his cold wet lips on me.  I am working on not shutting down and slamming the door on the feelings and the images.  There has to be something there but I know pushing too hard to remember or make a connection is not going to help. 

You are definitely on to something regarding my fear as a reason to hold onto the feelings.  Fear about explaining my past to people.  How do I explain that?   Sometimes I think the fear is because I do not trust myself enough, but I know I can handle whatever happens.  I am just scared about what happens to me between the beginning and end of any friendship.  The last two (my ex and now-ex-friend) really has me questioning just how much I have learned in terms of interpersonal stuff.  So my feelings keep me feeling unworthy and not fit for human consumption and my fear keeps me in my comfort zone.  I am not sure how to work through that especially because I am so isolated right now.


Yes, it makes sense Pessim-O.  Thank you for sharing part of your story with me.  I am saddened to know you have experienced similar things but I am happy to hear you have been able to let go of those feelings.  I keep saying that I don't think a place of no anger or pain is possible for me.  Not that I think it will always be present, but that the feelings will still arise from time to time.  Am i limiting myself and basically ensuring that the anger, resentment and all that will never go away for me?  Right now, I will settle for getting to a place where I do not hate myself for what happened. 


All of the above?  :) I did buy the book "get me out of here" and I have found it hugely helpful, so thank you for mentioning it.  I learned a lot by reading it (still have two chapters to go though) and I now understand more about the therapeutic process especially about inner child work and how listening to Little Harri is important but so is *parenting* her.  There were so many examples of what unconditional parental love looks and sounds like!  I also spent a lot of time crying my way through it. 


Yes, some of my fear does serve as a buffer.  I like that word.  It is a far more accurate and less harsh way to look at it.  Thank you.  And yes, Kwamina is right too.  Fear keeps me from growing and taking risks.  so there are several reasons i am holding on to the fear.  I can work on all of them though.  Thank you both for your help with this.

Kwamina wrote: 
I choose the light.   


Thank you both for that.     :'(


I am not sure.  I am thinking about doing some volunteer work when I get better (health wise).  I love working with kids and the elderly so maybe I can do something for them.  Any other ideas?

PS  I had a really hard time responding here.  I think I got triggered and while I dislike even saying that phrase as it seems like an excuse and pity seeking, I mention it simply so I do not forget.  This haziness, confusion and exhaustion is all to familiar and the fact that it has happened over several days as I tried to reply tells me I am definitely hitting on some deeply rooted stuff here.  Thanks so much for helping me. 

I think those are great ideas, Harri. You have a lot of compassion, and when you feel ready tom, I think you have a lot to offer other people.


I know how you feel, Harri -- but hearing you say this is really an inspiration to me. Your honesty and willingness to be open serves as an example.

I'm almost 6 mos out, NC the whole time, and there are days when I think I'm over this and ready to move on -- but then I'll read some posts and get triggered -- particularly the posts on the "Staying" boards... .I can see all of the pain in the posts there, and I remember being there myself -- makes sense, I think? Anyway, when I get triggered, it's a good reminder to myself to slow down, give myself more time, I'm still hurt -- even though I was the one to decide to end the r-ship. It's like I'm hurt because I feel like I was forced to make a decision that I didn't want to make, in a way I didn't want to make it, but one that had to be made -- and one that my ex would not make, at least not rationally.

Thank you for helping me.

 

Thank you Harri. I do not want to take undue credit, though - my level of my trauma was incomparably smaller and also in different areas and so the recovery was/is much easier. I tend to be slow and cautious when it comes to changes that require courage (heck, when it comes to approaching life in general  :) ). But I think that sharing the "how" toward healing helps because I believe that the process is the same or very similar.

I don't think you are limiting yourself if you now feel in your gut that your anger or pain may never completely go away. That's being honest. But it might be worth it to be open to the possibility. And I think you would be limiting yourself if you gave up trying or hoping. "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" we can't always tell what awaits beyond the horizon.

This is a long process. Taking it one step at a time and enjoying and celebrating every little victory is a very wise approach, Harri. Not hating oneself - i.e. having a road open toward loving, nurturing and even liking oneself is huge.

|iiii

harri i wanted to quote so much from your last comment but I am short for time (thunderclouds rolling in and I want to get as much done on the PC as I can before the lightning strikes and I suddenly come to life (It's a-LIVE! it's a-LIVE!)

I think fear has been your constant companion and behind him is disgust. Holding hands with him are self contempt and shame.

As far as justifying your feelings or excusing them I TOTALLY get this. I do it all the time. ALL the time.

I spend maybe 90% of my internal talk time defending my actions and feelings from all kinds of people in my mind. I am starting to think maybe I can't stop this. But maybe I can live with it.

I am so glad you are seeing your father's disgusting mouth coming at you - molestation can take the mildest seeming pose. The more you imagine it, the more you will contact your outrage and outrage trumps shame, believe me.

Would it be worth trying to picture your different feelings as actual forms? Maybe avatars or something? Invite them all in and sit them down at the table and listen to them all? Without interrupting or justifying?

Listen to what they all have to say?

Maybe you don't have just one little Harri, Harri. More like you maybe have 15. And they all feel something different and trying to tell you while you reason with them and explain and justify and defend. Sensing a pattern here? 


PS PessOpt?
This should have seemed obvious to me but it wasn't. thanks for tweaking it so I can relate to it in another way. you never fail to surprise me with a new nugget! 

|iiii  I totally agree with everything pessim-optimist said here!



Volunteer work can be great and very rewarding |iiii And you know Harri that the things you do on this site can also be considered volunteer work because you have also been helping a lot of people on here |iiii You could say that we are doing reciprocal volunteer work here :)

Hi eyvindr.  You're welcome.   I am glad my post helped you.     I see triggers as generally good things as they tell me what i still need to work on, or, like with you, to slow down.  I went back and read a few of your posts on other threads and on this one here.  I have to say that you have a wonderful way of reaching out to people and I am glad you stopped by to chat and offer a hand to me. 

Pessim-O I feel the same way when i hear other peoples stories.  Trauma is trauma though.  There is so much horror out there.  None of it really surprises me much any more, though it still hurts to see it all.  What does surprise me, time and again, is how much more caring and love there is out there.  In a way, I hope I never lose my surprise and wonder when I am fortunate enough to be on the receiving end of it.  Thank you. :)  I am going to try to remember not to limit my ability to shed the anger and hurt completely.  Hope is good, but it all too often it does not deliver and it hurts like hell too.  Maybe I need to make friends with it too though.   

Ziggiddy!  Thank you so much for saying you defend yourself too!  I swear I sound like a lawyer presenting a case in front of a judge sometimes!  I thought I was alone in this!  I am not at all glad to know you have this going on as well though; I am sorry for that but so thankful you shared that part of yourself! 


Sounds like I need some better friends doesn't it?  I'm working on it, though this statement is accurate... .for now. <--- is that hope?


Gee thanks   but I understand what you are saying and I laugh every time I read that line!  No it is not funny funny, but it is hysterical in a way. 

Molestation?  Is that what it was?  Is that what a court of law would call it?  Was it incest?    I hate that word... .so ugly and twisted.  Surely there is another word when the degree of the act was so small? 

I think sitting down with my feelings and all the Little Harri's is an excellent idea.  I learned a lot about the inner child from reading the book Pessim-O recommended (Get me out of here) that I think will help me with this.  I also have the book Toxic Parents sitting next to me and I am eager (and scared) to start reading it.  Thank you.   

Kwamina, you really are brightening my world with your blue feathers!  Thank you.  Apparently parrots are both good and persistent at getting their message across to stubborn people!   Thank you.