BPDFamily.com

So this morning I got up and drove in to town to meet my wife for breakfast. She is on the road to spend a week with her dad, probably doing a bunch of stuff to support him... .which requires some serious emotional grounding and/or serious family dysfunctional patterns; He's terrible at admitting he needs help, and she's pretty good at giving him what he needs without him needing to ask, and sometimes without even knowing she's doing it for him.

She had said she had something to tell me, and she didn't know how I was going to react. I suppose I should have known that was code for she knew it wasn't going to be good.

It started pleasant. I my comment when we were last together that I was working on myself, instead of our marriage, which was good, given what she'd said about not wanting to be in a romantic r/s with me... .If I was working on our marriage, I would have given up upon hearing that.

I added that part of working on myself did involve commitment to our marriage, as that is important to me.

She said that she does want to set down roots someplace, and stop moving around. (I kinda knew that) And that she doesn't want to pick a place without involving me in the choice.

Anyhow, what she said was that she loves me, is my best friend, etc, and likes to cuddle and hug... .still... .and she doesn't want to kiss or take it to sex.

(I guess I could have guessed when she said she didn't want to be in a romantic r/s with me.)

I did ask her to think about whether this was something she wanted to work on or not.

Fortunately we were done eating. I pretty much started to tear up a little as it sunk in, and said that I needed comfort, and didn't want it from her. She did offer me a teddy bear (way too much back story, but it was a very significant gesture and was some comfort).

A little bit of logistical crap, then I drove off... .just a couple blocks, far enough to be out of sight.

I did reach out to a friend (YAY! Team Grey Kitty!), and ended up taking a long walk. Fortunately it was warming up and pleasant weather. Eventually I got some of my equilibrium back, and remembered that it is supposed to rain tomorrow, which will keep me from most of the work I'm trying to do on the boat. So I picked myself up, drove back, and got some more work done.

I texted her that if she wanted to go to MC, she should make the next appointment. Honestly, I'm not sure quite what the point is. Certainly not a good enough reason for me to put effort in that direction.

---

The one interesting thing here is that she's finally hitting a point where she's getting in touch with the feelings behind resentments that have been building over a decade or two.

I'm still getting mixed messages about our marriage from her:

Doesn't want to live with me... .but wants to pick a city to live in with me.

Doesn't want sex with me... .but is still getting kinda freaked out about who I'm talking to, and whether I might be flirting with them.

Doesn't show much commitment to doing anything for me in our marriage, but wants to be BFF's/etc.

... .

I think she's just starting to find and admit to her contradictory feelings about me, and hasn't really concluded what she wants yet. She's not asking for much concrete from me.

... .

I can put all her "No's" together and see an image of a companionate marriage, where we don't live together, and don't have sex. I'm not interested.

Honestly, the job of working through all the ways I'm enmeshed with her is a lot more challenging to do while I'm in contact with her. I'm think I'm willing to put the extra effort out for a real marriage with her.

It will be a lot easier to get on with my life if I just cut all ties that formally bind us, and start a new life without her. Perhaps we can be friends and cuddle and talk, etc... .but it will be months or years before I'm ready for that. Especially after we go through the process of splitting the ties that do formally bind us, which will hurt us both.

I dunno why I'm willing to give her the rest of February before I just walk away... .but I think I may still be. Probably false hope that she will come back.

Last part was https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270600.0;all

If you do cut ties with her, she will probably try to lure you back--maybe just to keep the BFF status. A part of me is hearing this as a test or a dare. What would happen if you just severed the relationship? (I'm not suggesting that you do that, but do you think by always letting her be the deciding force in your relationship that she has lost respect for you?)

I'm almost reminded of the Woody Allen joke of not wanting to belong to a club that would have him as a member. I don't know if I'm reading too much into this.

   

You have been together 20+ years. It won't be easy to just walk away.

 

I'm so sorry you are going through that right now GK because you are a great person and you deserve all the happiness and support possible. I can't imagine what it's like for you right now given the time you have been together, I do recognise the very same pattern going on my my r/s right now though and how frustrating it can be.

Everyone talks about being split black but I think this situation feels so much more difficult to navigate and it plays on that sense of hope that you referred to. It's what my T said to me in our last appointment, I don't have a fear of rejection or abandonment, I have a fear of letting go of hope. There is always that worry that if you cut your ties now and walked away, she might be on the verge of an epiphany tomorrow and it's that missing out by a day. We tend to hold on to the good things, the little words or gestures, the little moments where we see or hear doubt in their words that make us believe they are on the edge of a turning point.

You are doing the right thing by continuing to work on you, that is all you can do at this point. It doesn't necessarily mean walking away, just stepping out from it emotionally and mentally. It can be so difficult to navigate when the person you love wants to be your best friend, have your emotional support, share some level of intimacy, has jealousy towards who you talk to or go out with but at the same time keeps you at a distance. Extremely frustrating but when it's the person you love and want that life with, it's also very painful.

You truly are a great guy GK, not many out there like you and I wish you every success, happiness and that things work out the way that you want them to because you are so deserving of it 

Grey Kitty, does setting down roots some place appeal to you?  Is your boat "the other woman"?  Would you feel happier and more content living on your boat?  Is there a chance that the boating lifestyle just doesn't appeal to your wife at this stage of her life?

There might be 20+ years together, but have they been really good years or somewhere in the background possibly always searching for more?

I will admit to projecting my own feelings onto your wife, comparing the way she might possibly feel to the way I felt being married to my ex.  While I was supportive of what I believed to be his hobby, he turned it into a lifestyle-- one that collided with my own sense of safety and security... .roots.

It doesn't make him an awful person or controlling and selfish, like I wanted to believe for a while.  That was after wondering for years if I was awful and being controlling and selfish for not sharing the same dreams as his   Our values were just entirely different and in order to stay together we'd of had to do a lot more than compromise, we'd have to give up big portions of ourselves to appease the other, leaving us both feeling off-kilter and just a little bit nuts!  (understatement)

Anyway, I do truly hope you both find internal happiness, whether it be together or apart

 

it seems to me that she is dropping bombs... .looking for a reaction.

It's not like she said... I've thought this through and this is my decision. 

Can you see this being her point of view... ?  Testing the waters for a reaction...

   

I only have a little time, GK, but I wanted to say I'm so sorry that your wife has dropped this on you.  That must have been so difficult to hear, in light of your commitment to her.  What is she really suggesting here?  That you guys become celibate or that you have sex with other people, while you, as a married couple, do nothing sexually? She sounds like she wants you as a brother and not a husband. 

I hope you told her how unfair that relationship would be for you.  IMO, she is being unreasonable... .that sort of rejection cannot be good for any man, and you do not deserve that.  And you know you have a choice, right?  Is loving her worth hurting you, after you've come this far to make things better?  I wish I could tell her she's lucky to have a man willing to cuddle and be affectionate in non-sexual ways.  I feel like she is taking advantage of that... .sorry, no BPD bashing I know, but that's my opinion... .

Good job at calling Team Grey Kitty!  So important.  You are a good example for the rest of us, you kept your cool, you listened, you didn't JADE, you reacted in a healthy, safe way and you gave yourself time to process rather than react to what she said.       Go GK Go!

It is funny. I was tearful and broken up over this latest one for a couple hours. Then I got myself to work. Then I got back and wrote this summary. Last night I had a marathon conversation... .and noticed that I spent very little time talking about this (at least considering the severity!)

I think I'm almost done with my marriage. Perhaps already past the point of no return, where I say to myself "I want more than this broken r/s in my life" and turn away and start walking.

I know that my way of moving on will be to cut the snuggly cuddly friendship out, cut the various ties that bind us, dividing up joint assets one way or the other, and re-build a life that doesn't have my wife in it. Low contact / ~zero  intimacy will be what I need to do. I hope that months (years?) later I'll be able to resume friendship with her, at least some of those wonderful parts that she so much enjoys, however I cannot focus on that or plan on it.


I'm pretty sure she has absolutely no idea that I'm feeling this way, even though I've tried to tell her a little bit in this direction. (Just like it took me so long to accept that she isn't here for me in our marriage!)


In the process of working on our marriage over December/January, I made it a point NOT to share my doubts with her--I was aware that they would impact her decision, and I didn't want to push her farther away. I have no regrets, but that time has passed for me.


Now I owe her the information. ASAP


I'll try to call her today or perhaps facetime with her tonight.

I more philosophical postscript... .my wife has been telling me for quite a while that the problem in our marriage wasn't the cheating... .As of today, I'm about done with it... .and not because of the cheating. That was much more a symptom than a cause.

Grey Kitty:

I think this quote from Downton Abbey this season, will give you some foods for thoughts:

Violet: I agree. Hope is a tease, designed to prevent us accepting reality.

Isobel: Oh, you only say that to sound cleaver.

Violet: I know. You should try it.

Personally, I think it is our hope that has kept all of us ATTACHED to BPD. We hope tomorrow BPD will change to that perfect SO/partner of our dream. We hope and hope and like Violet said we accept not our reality.

Just got off the phone.

As usual, things felt a lot less clear when I was talking to her than before I started to.

I did succeed in telling her that I have had doubts about our marriage, and in the process of working on it, and letting her work through her things, I was keeping them to myself... .and now I'm on the cusp of giving up.

She did try to tell me that she wasn't asking for a companionate marriage with me, that she is trying to work through this. (I didn't argue)

I did tell her that I felt like I was the only one committed to this marriage.

I also said that I was a lot less sad with her news yesterday than I expected to be... .and that was concerning.

And I admitted that I had trouble figuring out what I wanted, and that it was even harder to ask her for it.

She said something about seeing me in MC next week; I know she didn't have a chance to make an appointment yesterday before the office closed... .I suspect she hasn't yet today, but probably was still planning to do so.

She did try to reassure me that she was here, was working on our marriage, that is why she settled down here to go through MC with me.



I'm thinking that what I didn't say was that I've lost trust in her as a romantic partner.

... .I guess this time I dropped a bomb on her for a change. She sounded a little tearful and needed to think about it.

She's doing crazymaking behavior. She doesn't want you as a romantic partner, but she wants you as a cuddle friend, but she's concerned about who you talk with, and she's OK at keeping you at a distance, but is worried that you might give up on your marriage.

This looks like a big control issue. And I suspect that when you ceded control to her, she felt that she could do whatever she wanted and you'd be waiting in the wings, eager for her return.

Even non BPD women play this game, and a game is exactly what it looks like to me, whether she's consciously aware of it or not--and I doubt that she is aware of it.

I feel that is where I'm at with my wife. 

It's really strange how so many people can know exactly how you're feeling here. I keep hearing about the hope and it couldn't be more true. I think it's reasonable to expect bumps in the road for any relationship. It's when the bumps become mountains and our days are spent climbing and never reaching the top that it starts to seem impossible.

Can I ask you if you've often felt like your wife are always in a push-pull cycle? When you lean in does she lean away and vice-versa?

I think it's frustrating that you felt you needed to keep your cards close to your chest to prevent her from reacting but she has been throwing everything on the table for you to sort through. I get managing your own emotions even when someone else isn't managing theirs but stuffing down your feelings to react better doesn't seem to make for any sort of healthy dynamic. I'm so glad you got some of your own feelings out! I hope it was cleansing. Also, maybe projecting here but I am feeling very one with GK right now.

Whatever happens, I just *hope* you're happy, because you deserve that.

Grey Kitties are Go! (http://www.th02.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2012/120/5/9/thundercats_1985_2011_logo_by_pencilshade-d4y2uzr.png)

I am so sorry it has gotten to this point for you, GK. Has she ever really explained why she doesn't want a romantic r/s? I might have missed that in your posts.

It sounds like the push/pull that pwBPD do. I think she doesn't know she is doing that or is meaning to... .but it's more like she wants you to be the one who is 'done' or makes the decision that it's over. She doesn't want to be the 'bad guy'.

That's my take on it.

Regarding the push-pull. I think she's starting to find some awareness of such things, but only starting. Heck, just recognizing that she has feelings of wanting out is a huge step for her, and she only came to that realization after months of pushing away / running away!

I had another good discussion with a Team GK member today, about being alone vs. being lonely, and about being lonely when you are with somebody. Came to an interesting realization:

My friend (who is more like my wife!) finds it really difficult to get personal space when she's with somebody else--too empathetic. I, on the other hand, am VERY good at checking out. If I need 'space' from my wife, I can check out in place without leaving, and give myself the alone time. I'm so good at this that I can do it when I need it without even realizing that I need it or that I'm doing it!

Consequently 99.8% of the explicit pushing away is done by my wife, and I would chase after her. I'm doing less of that than I used to; progress is happening, but it is slow.

Me doing something to create distance is rare in our marriage. More often, she wants distance, and will try to manipulate me into doing something that will let her have distance, without having to ask for it or take it, and used to get mad at me for not jumping at the opportunity.

Still... .when I did it on my own, like playing a sport after work... .or having a friendship with somebody that doesn't involve her much at all... .she generally gets worried and often tried to shut it down.


I realize... .I want a marriage/relationship based on trust, not hope... .dunno if this will become one or not. I think letting go of hope is a good step.

Whoosh. That statement speaks volumes. How do you plan on letting go of hope? That sounds very difficult. It would be for me. D:

Grey Kitty, how are you doing now that you've had a day to let this all sink in?   

How am I doing? Pretty well.   :)

I'm getting back to a question that the captain of Team GK once asked me as I was describing what was going on with my wife and thoughts/plans/concerns I had: "Where are YOU in all this?"

I'm really thinking more about what I want, what I need, and how I'm going to get it. I'm realizing that regardless of my commitment to my marriage, I've got some old work to do on myself that I never got around to doing, living as a separate independent person.

I went from living at home to living in dorms. My last year of college, after I had a r/s with my wife, I moved into an efficiency apartment 'cuz my dorm roommate got in the way of my r/s with my wife during the prior year, but I spent a lot of time at her place instead. I did spend six months living alone at my first job, but was still seeing her every weekend. Then she moved down, and we got an apartment together... .and lived together for the next 23 years, very rarely being apart more than a week.

For the last three months, I've been living on the boat, and she hasn't. I'm almost there, but not quite. Honestly, it is "our" boat, and she's moved her immediate critical stuff off, but I'm still storing a few things that are hers, and a lot of things that are jointly chosen, and not clear whether they are jointly owned or mine.

I'm realizing that I need to figure out what MY life will look like and see about inviting her to share it with me... .after I find the parts that are mine.

So many of my choices/decisions, including daily ones like what to eat, what to cook, when to go to bed, or when to get up in the morning have loong history of control battles with my wife over them. I'm recognizing that I cannot make the choice for myself if the choice becomes a me-vs-wife battle. Regardless of whether *I* turn it into that sort of thing or if *SHE* turns it into that sort of thing. Once the internal choice becomes a struggle between two people, it is messed up.

I dunno... .call it a mid-life crisis or finally getting 'round to the classic struggle of adolescence that I kinda bypassed during those years.

When I left my first marriage, I too had the experience of getting acquainted with living by myself. I decided I was going to "marry myself" and I bought things that I needed and I started treating myself the way I would want a marriage partner to treat me.

I discovered I absolutely loved living alone and after several years of dating an on-again off-again boyfriend, I got involved with the man who would become my second husband. I knew this relationship was heading towards the serious territory and it was unnerving to think that I would actually live with someone again. (My previous boyfriend was a great guy, but had a psycho daughter and I knew we'd never be together, even though that was what he wanted.)

Eventually my husband and I did move in together after living between his rental house and the little house that I built just for me (and I purposely made it so small that it would be impossible to share with another person). We added on a huge addition, but I made sure that he had a very large "man cave" studio, just so that I could keep my own personal space, which I've grown so fond of.

Yes, I think it's so important for all of us to have that time to live alone and really discover just who we are, independent of other's choices.  |iiii  

I know exactly how you feel. I've been relationship jumping since I was almost 13. (Yes, even though they were very PG relationships then.) I may only be 28 but I've just always looked for validation from others. Am I worthwhile person? I don't know, someone else must tell me. This is no bueno. That's been most of my therapy over the past few years. I've gotten over some stuff, like separation anxiety. I can now stand the thought of being separated for hours, days, and even months and have done all of them successfully in terms of not having a meltdown bc my partner wasn't with me. It's really hard to escape that pattern. I still struggle with thinking about being completely on my own and feeling comfortable in my own skin and space full-time. A trip is one thing but feeling good on your own indefinitely is a different ball game.

From learning about you, I think you'll grieve a bit and soon find that you get on very well on your own. You've had some practice on the boat and just think how much better you'll do in a place where your friends or family live close by, when you have more time to reach out and plant yourself in a new location by having your own interests, hobbies and living space not defined as a project (the boat). Hang in there. You're on the right path if you're even aware of this before it happens. You can head it off that way.

 Bloomer

I like that idea, GK. It' scary. Change is scary. But it's healthy for you to take that time for yourself. I have never lived alone. I've lived without a husband or a boyfriend, but I have children and I have my brother I take care of. (He's 28, paranoid schizophrenic)

I have no idea what living alone would look like for me. It scares me to think about... .but logically I know it's a thing I would get used to, and most likely enjoy.

Living alone on my boat is half-way to living alone in a really interesting way.

It is really sized for one person, or perhaps two fused/enmeshed people  lol  (Maybe two people who have really good boundaries, and not a lot of stuff?)

So... .my wife moved off... .and I kinda left a wife-sized-and-shaped hole where she used to be. I'm still storing some of her stuff that she doesn't need daily and hasn't wanted in the last few months. There are areas on the boat that had her stuff, which are mostly empty, and I'm not putting any of my stuff there.

Honestly, more than half the reason is that I'm in construction mode now, and there isn't much point in making it 'comfortable' in other ways when it really won't be for a while anyhow. Whatever happens with my marriage, my belongings aboard are due for a major purge when I leave the boatyard, more the accumulation of years of boatyard projects than my wife's stuff. But that is a good excuse not to get 'round to it.

Another hard thing to hear, for sure.

But, if she is taking the risk of sharing honestly with you about what she is feeling... .that is good.

GK,

we are on a board for people with significant others with BPD or the like.

But, my understanding is that your wife has pretty good insight, and has done a lot of work and recovery.

That doesn't make her in anyway a perfect mate... .none of us are... .but,

I get a little confused with your situation, b/c... .if she were a low functioning person with no progress in recovery, no improvement, no self work... .and she just tended to drop bombs on you all the time as a matter of course during huge mood swings etc... .

then, I think I'd be responding to you differently.  I'd be thinking,  her feelings will dramatically change  in couple days, or this is just same old push-pull stuff, don't get attached to it one way or the other and expect to have bombs dropped a lot, don't personalize it.

But if she has done a lot of work and had moved into the territory of the average less than perfect mate, with less than perfect ability to know herself and communicate her needs effectively... .in other words, if she is more along the average bell curve of the average neurotic individual... .(like most of us)... .

I'd say... .

I am really, really glad that she is opening up and sharing with you.  She doesn't  HAVE to take the risk of sharing with you at all, she could just walk and be with other men.

I'd also want to learn a lot more about what that is all about... .the lack of sexual interest.  In couples who have been together a long time, but kept big parts of themselves hidden out of fear (real or imagined, it's usually both)... .their r/s often does become deadened.  B/C it is too enmeshed, and that kills vitality, there's little or no 'juice' with enmeshment... .just two people being careful and hiding part of themselves to maintain the peace.  And getting the juice elsewhere.  So I would be really curious about what this is all about for her AND for you.  This is best done with a skilled couples counselor helping you both.

Ya, if she has a raging mood or personality disorder that has never been treated... .I'd say... .watch-out, brace yourself, stay detached... .there will be a different feeling and story very soon.

But, if she is more in lines with an average insecurely attached person trying to take risks with her long time mate to see if you two can save this marriage... .I'd say, this is a good sign, and to keep working together with the counselor to see if you two can build on this new level of sharing.  It is risky for both of you, and there are no certainty, but you both will grow if you both risk being honest and transparent with yourselves and each other.

Nope, she hasn't been raging at me at all, even while going through her own personal hell in various flavors in the last year and a half. I was impressed when the need/desire to rage at me went away, and more impressed when it stayed away under duress.

She does have a lot of self-awareness, and is working on herself. Didn't have DBT/other intensive therapy (the apparent gold standard for BPD recovery), but has been working on herself quite a lot in a variety of ways.

And honestly, I would say that she has always been on the higher-functioning side of BPD, higher up the bell curve from the typical partner described on these boards.


DING, I think you nailed it. Both what she's doing and the very real risk for both of us.

And looking back at it, I believe my last conversation was doing just that--being more honest and transparent with her.

I want to repeat this from MaybeSo because it is so true:

"I'd also want to learn a lot more about what that is all about... .the lack of sexual interest.  In couples who have been together a long time, but kept big parts of themselves hidden out of fear (real or imagined, it's usually both)... .their r/s often does become deadened.  B/C it is too enmeshed, and that kills vitality, there's little or no 'juice' with enmeshment... .just two people being careful and hiding part of themselves to maintain the peace.  And getting the juice elsewhere.  So I would be really curious about what this is all about for her AND for you.  This is best done with a skilled couples counselor helping you both".

I don't know if it applies to GK's situation or not. GK, I think you are being very compassionate and understanding in a tough situation. I hope you get the clarity you seek for yourself. I agree with working on yourself. I think it's the best any one of us can do.

I don’t know if this applies to GK’s situation or not either…

but I am going to go out on a limb and suggest the possibility that like most long term r/s’s…it can become deadened due to enmeshed dynamics and that even the agreement to have a ploy relationship along the way may have been an attempt to manage that deadness while (unconsciously) avoiding the discomfort and anxiety that comes with intimacy b/t the two of you.

Now, you two have an opportunity to create intimacy as a diad (w/out the distraction and comfort of others, which will be both scary and growthful)…

So it will be really interesting to see how this goes for both of you.

I thought it was interesting that she is suggesting NOT continuing with a poly type lifestyle if you were to go forward.  At least I’m pretty sure she suggested that in one of your recent convos with her?

Good luck to you both!   |iiii

We first started talking about/experimenting with/getting burned with various aspects of opening our marriage (and cheating-ish behavior on my wife's part) real soon after we retired and started living on our boat, seven years ago.

At that point, we stopped having separate careers, which was a much more difficult change than we had any idea about at the time.

Looking back, I can see that she was deeply unhappy and dissatisfied with aspects of both her life and our marriage, and unable to address them directly with me. (Back then she was being more abusive and blaming me for other things more than the fundamental issues!)

External r/s sure were a great distraction, even better when they had lots of drama!  :)


When she mentioned it, it was in a trial balloon thinking-about-it kind of way. Not sure where she is with it now.

She appears to be going full-force on her long-distance-flirting r/s, texting up a storm with the guy every time I see her. Her feelings on this one seem to vacillate between moments of clarity (When he told her he had a crush on her, she was gobsmacked and really uncertain what she should do about it. Another day, she called it an emotional affair) and moments of complete denial that anything romantic is going on with him.

I'm a little concerned... .and aware that it is her choice, and not sure if I trust her or not... .or if we are in a marriage where I can even ask her for behavior that I would consider trustworthy!

So I'm really not sure where she is going to want to go, and how much she will acknowledge it to herself.

---

Where our marriage is going is a much more interesting question than whether it is an open one or not.

I'm realizing today that we're pretty much at a decision point about the future of our marriage this coming week, and I don't think that I've done enough to be ready for it, nor do I think my wife is ready for it.

Hard deadline: She's got a place to stay near me where we can see the MC 'till the end of Feb.

Soft deadline: She needs to plan ahead where she's going next, so the big decision comes ASAP.

She has told me that she wants to set down some roots in a community somewhere, 'tho she isn't sure where just yet. She's also said she wants to make that decision with me. [I too want more local community than I have here!]

I'm finding two things in this time apart:

1. I really do miss the daily companionship of living with somebody.

2. I NEED more time living solo (months, perhaps a year).

I'm looking at a BUNCH daily choices like going to bed at night, getting up in the morning, cooking food for myself / eating, daily exercise, or just how I want to set my home up for myself. And I'm realizing that over the last couple decades, I don't even know what I want in these things. I've got my own internal struggles/decisions to make on them, and one way or another, most of them turned into external struggles with my wife.

I'm very much afraid that if I moved back in with her today, I would externalize those struggles again before I resolved them for myself. My wife was participating in the external battles with me; I doubt she would have done that if she had fully resolved them for herself, so she probably has similar issues. I have no idea if she is resolving them faster or or slower than I am.

Once I know my own answers... .and my wife knows her own answers, we can figure out what we want to share in our daily lives, and make good compromises where our desires/needs don't match 100%

    Great insight, as always, GK.   

Maybe you could get a dog for a companion?  Great company and no fear of co-dependancy!   

It sounds like your retirement opened up a whole lot of opportunities for you... .ones that you have neglected to maximize on for a long while, for the sake of your r/s.  Go, GK!  Now is your window of opportunity!  Make your life into your own.  Be the best dang kitty out there! 

I'm sending you strength and great focus.

 ,

c.

I was with my first husband for almost two decades and when I first was on my own, it was incredibly unfamiliar, freeing and sometimes I felt very alone. I realized how much I had compromised and neglected to support my own choices, just to try to please him and get along with him.

Even if you get back together with your wife in the future, I hope you have some time just for yourself to explore just how you want to live life, without wrapping yourself around trying to meet the needs of another person. 

Wow. She can't even set that aside while with you, while supposedly working on/trying to figure out with you which direction your marriage is going to go? Even though you've expressed how that hurts you and complicates the situation even more than it already is? Doesn't that feel disrespectful at the very least? She's choosing to push and pull herself, dragging you (willingly) along. It sounds like you're waiting for her to be the one to pull the plug, instead of doing what's best for yourself on your own. Let her go. She's not really there anyway. (Those 'Ten Beliefs', again.)

She is texting with him while she is with you? Sounds like it might be a good time to set a boundary on this. If she is with you and the two of you are supposed to be working on your marriage, no texting with other people. How often do you see each other these days? It doesn't matter what kind of r/s she has with this person. If she is with you and the the two of you are supposed to be working on things, it is really rude for her to do that.

One of the worst blows that I had was when I told my husband that I wanted to cuddle with him. He said okay but he sat there and chatted and texted with another woman the whole time. I got really mad and told him that if we were spending time together, I didn't want him chatting/texting with other people. And if he did, then he needed to be a little more discreet about it because what he was doing was really rude and was contributing to my feelings of being rejected. And, that is one thing, among many, that contributes to me feeling like I can't trust my husband.

You seem to have glossed over that little detail. You might ask yourself WHY?

 

I have similar "arguments" discussions with my wife.  She likes lots of noise on... .so... TV on... .laptop on her lap... .and phone in her hand.

Texting, facebooking, watching some show... all at same time.

I realize I can't have it my way all of the time... .so I sometimes hang out in her world...   It usually ends badly because she will repeat a question... .and I will say something about already answering it... .what part did you miss out on.  Basically... she wasn't paying attention.

Sometimes I will ask for her undivided attention... .and there is usually a huff for 5 minutes or so... .and then she calms down... .and seems to enjoy it.  I just have to work through it.

Funny... .we sometimes have productive conversations when not distracted... .I don't remember any good conversations while multitasking. 

I sometimes wonder what her purpose is with all of the multitasking.

This isn't just multi-tasking.

I don't understand the insistence in various posts in this thread that GK's wife is working on their marriage. GK's wife's last explicit statements on the situation are that she doesn't want to be in a romantic r/s or have sex with GK. She does want to be in close-ish touch and she may go to MC. And she is sad about the potential loss.

And ... .She is having an emotional affair in front of him.

GK, you are so great. I'm sorry you are faced with processing all this. But I do think realism about what is being said and done is important. As The Road Less Traveled author says, mental health is the choice of reality over comfort.

(Sometimes I resent mental health like crazy.)

It's gone beyond 'emotional affair'. Haven't they already been physical?

This seems to be about boundaries and respect. Actual connections, or not.

Here's something you posted just a couple weeks ago, Grey Kitty:

"I told my wife that what she did hurt me. I even told her that I couldn't come back to our marriage if she continued being in contact with the guy. She did (after a lot of time and effort and struggle on both our parts) decide she was cutting contact with him.

Now she has told me that she is still friends with him, that she doesn't just cut off friends, and that at an important event for us that will happen in the summer but requires planning already, she will be friends with him. Sorta implying that she won't seek him out, but won't avoid him either. (She has also said she isn't going to be a lover with him; I don't trust this statement.)"

Most recently, she's still 'friends with him' right in your face. Doesn't want a committed married sexual r/s with you, while he's still in the picture (wasn't sure, but is now much more so). Doesn't want cheating in her r/s, so if she cuts off sexual contact with you she won't be 'cheating' anymore. That's convenient. She also won't have to "seek him out" when that time comes>>  He'll know right where to find her. From "texting up a storm" to "not avoiding" is probably quite likely. You're the 'friend' she doesn't want to "just cut off". Because she's wading into loss, and something scary, new, exhilarating... .Those are her steps. Live your own. Live your life.

Songbook, I'm afraid I've confused you, and perhaps I overstated the degree of texting she does with me.

My wife did cheat on me with Guy1. She did cut contact with Guy1, but is now telling me she wants to be friends with Guy1. [And I'm still not OK with that]

My wife did not cheat with Guy2. She flirts with him outrageously by text message. [Aside: I have met and like Guy2 reasonably well]

And as for texting Guy2 in front of me... .she's pretty well behaved about it. She doesn't text during heavy conversations with me. We were together for hours (dinner plus watching the superbowl in a bar/restaurant) and for the most part she was only texting him when I stepped away to go to the bathroom (or when she was in the bathroom herself). She was also sharing some of the conversation with me, in a spirit of openness and wanting me to know what is going on in this r/s, or just 'cuz he said something funny that she wanted me to see.

Neither of us are much for multi-tasking conversations... .occasionally keeping two or three texting/chatting conversations going switching back and forth, but not while actually talking face to face or voice.

Count me as confused too. Did you hear her say something other than this GK?


Does anyone in your real-life Team Grey Kitty feel that your wife is capable of more than this in your marriage?

Oh, I see. There are two other guys involved.

(Other issues than just texting, too... .Perhaps another time?)

Why are you defending her instead of your own boundaries?

songbook, I've always been OK with my wife being a flirt. The texting with Guy2 is on the edge, but not crossing my boundaries, so I'm not enforcing them yet.


Yes, it is confusing. Real life Team GK sure feels that I'm worth more than this. (So do I!) I don't know how much hope they are holding out for my wife these days.

The encouraging part is that my wife has been stuffing/denying/been confused by these feelings for a long time. That she's acknowledging them, and is vulnerable enough to share them with me is the bright spot.

The other encouraging thing I heard was when I called her to admit that I was running out of commitment to our marriage as it is, she was working pretty hard to point out the commitments she is making. She is working on her own issues really hard right now, which is probably the biggest thing to help our marriage. What she is committing today isn't enough, but she really sounded like she didn't want me to give up hope on us.

Monday afternoon we've got another MC appointment. I've got important stuff coming up for me. I'm pretty sure my wife has important stuff coming up for her too. She just drove back into town this evening, and called me as she was going by... .was somewhat willing to see me if I needed something, but didn't have a lot of energy for it, so she went the rest of the way home.

I keep remembering a question posed by formflier on one of your threads: "What does she think her choices are? What does she think your choices are?"

Are you any closer to answers today?

BFF wont work with an BPDex, there will always strings being tugged. Boundaries will still be crossed and blurred, some gamesmanship. Might start with best intentions but once you officially have that space you will relish the freedom and see it as futile

Your time on staying has taught you to put all this together so that you can move on without endless "what if" moments... you will quickly wrap it all up into the reality it is, in hindsight.

I sense you have been scraping the barrel using your last shots now with one eye on clock knowing knock of time is getting close.

Do you think its time now for you to start heading towards Undecided Board?

I hope very soon you'll be Guy #1 for somebody. 

I have a bit of a different take on this.

First of all, I don’t think GK’s wife qualifies as a pwBPD at least not anymore. I am reminded as I read these posts about Steph and her husband who was diagnosed with BPD (mood swings, lots of raging, suicidal ideation).  He went into treatment and got better.  He ended up leaving the relationship (temporarily) because Steph’s codependence stayed about the same, while he improved himself. Once Steph got into doing her own work and really dealt with her codependent approach to the r/s, they then did couples therapy, the relationship improved and they got back together and have been a very successful couple.    

The stuff GK and his wife are dealing with today is stuff many couples deal with, without either one being mentally ill.

They may grow through this crises and slowly move into a more honest, more mature relationship with more intimacy.  If they do…getting there won’t look pretty.  It will look much like what GK is describing.  Growth isn’t pretty.  :)oesn’t mean it isn’t growth.  

Or, through this more honest time where they have taken some distance and are speaking their own truth and trying to break through the enmeshment…they may come to the conclusion to call it quits.

One of the hardest things to do is hold onto yourself when all the questions are not yet answered…b/c that is so anxiety producing…and most folks jump to a conclusion and personalize it and blow it up fast to avoid the anxiety.

GK is sitting with not knowing, he is sitting with the anxiety of not knowing, and so is his wife.  That is hard work. That is grown up work.  There may personal reasons and logistical reason to make decision by such and such a date…but that is all choice, too.

This is all choice.  If this were a life or death DV relationship, if life and limb were on the line,  I’d say ….get the h** out and move on with your life.

That is NOT what is happening here.  I see that both people are being forced to pop-out of their enmeshment due to a crises (the affair)…and growth usually does follow a crises of this nature, otherwise nothing changes... That’s how growth works.

Growth is not pretty.

 

It doesn’t even always mean the relationship will last, but it’s still growth.

I think both GK and his wife are really trying to grow out of an enmeshed system.  Maybe they will have to break-up to do that, I don’t know.  

They are both willing to do some hard work, they have agreed to see a couples therapist, they are doing the homework, they are trying to connect and have the hard discussions and to self-define. This is tuff stuff.

I think there is growth here…even if they decide to part.

No matter what happens... .GK already is Guy #1.  

MaybeSo, do you think it would be helpful for GK's wife to be taking a proactive role at this time? Maybe a role of bringing some clear definitions to the choices the couple is facing?

I could be mistaken, but it seems she has recently stated that she doesn't want a romantic relationship with her husband, at least at this time, but she has also said she is not proposing a "companionate marriage."

What might bring greater clarity for GK at this time, do you think? And how long do you think this crisis state (or limbo state) might go on before it has persisted too long?

ADDED: I also think it would be a shame if a pre-determined deadline date, like the end of February, dictated the fate of such a longstanding relationship.

It sounds like she is being proactive on some levels. She is the one that schedules the MC appointments. She is opening up about her feelings even if it is sometimes difficult for GK to hear it. In such a long relationship, it can be very difficult to overcome past baggage. It may be difficult to bring clear definition if one isn't really clear with things to begin with. I know it is frustrating as I feel my husband and I are in a similar situation. One of the revelations that I have recently had is that I have been looking to my husband to provide answers, definitions, directions but all that did was frustrate me. I have recently started trying to take a look at what I want and the honest answer is that I don't really know.


I could so easily say this same thing to my husband. Part of it is because, at this time, I cannot see myself being married to him in the long term. I know that things need to change and be different but I am not certain what those things need to be. I feel like I have completely fallen out of love with my husband. I love him but not like that. Will those feelings come back once he and I sort out or individual and combined "stuff"? I don't know. What I do know is that being pressured does not help me to sort things out at all. It makes me anxious and even more undecided and confused.

I think there is merit in this. In order to see if this is a possibility I think there is needed to be a clear break for a self assessment period to rediscover themselves as stand alone individuals. All the resentment and bitterness that still exist will provide hair triggers for reactive behavior. Only time regrowing will wash this out of the system.

Maybe it may reach a harmonious rapport apart, and stay that way, but if it recycled will it revert? Who knows.

Either way space where neither is walking on eggshells to enable self discovery and consolidation is important otherwise small triggers will raise old reactions and doubts again

Waverider's proposal takes me out of the "confused" category. Makes total sense in my book.

You asked MaybeSo, but it is my marriage, so I'll answer    Yes, it would be helpful if my wife was more proactive. However I cannot change this, all I can do is work on my side of the fence... .and give her room to be as proactive as she is. (If you were having a conversation with her, I'd hope you suggest it for her... .instead of suggesting that I do something!)

The question of how long to live in limbo is one I think of often. When I get serious about it, look for the post on Undecided instead of Staying.


The crisis turned what was going to be a few weeks separation into a few months (and counting) separation.

The separation is helping me de-enmesh. I suspect that my wife is finding similar benefit. I've decided that I need more time, as this is a big job. (It is now reason #3 for separation) I will be bringing this up in MC with my wife tomorrow... .If my wife wants more time physically separated too, I won't be surprised.

It somehow seems very symbolic that the space where my ring isn't on my left hand still feels VERY obvious to me. I wonder how fast the changes in my mind/heart will occur relative to the changes on my finger.


We both have to decide what to do in March.

My wife has a hard calendar deadline and cannot continue living where she is.

I plan to continue living on my boat, however I am approaching being ready to launch... .around the same timeframe. I've got some projects I am going to finish before I launch, and more projects that could be done either before or after... .so I've got an earliest possible time, defined by jobs, not the calendar.

Our current status is kinda in limbo, but not fully static. I think we're ready for something different. I'm curious what my wife is looking for.

I'm eager for the new life for me that is less enmeshed with my wife... .whatever happens to my marriage!

GK, if you sail off next month, without your wife, do you have in mind any ground rules for yourself about what level of communication and interaction you would have with her in the months following? Is that something the marriage counselor could help you both with?

As is appropriate GK answered for himself regarding his specific thoughts as it pertain to his understanding of his situation.

I can only offer in general terms what would be in my opinion, a good approach in therapy for a couple who has been organized around enmeshed dynamics.

Couples who are enmeshed will automatically keep pulling for symbiosis (enmeshment).   Even though the symbiosis is what is deadening the relationship. Breaking out of symbiosis will create anxiety. There is no way around it.

Moving to problem solve in an effort to fix the messy anxiety of differentiation is the kiss of death for codependent partners. A good therapist will not fall into that trap.

Couples that are symbiotic only grow by exercising emotional muscle and learning to hold onto themselves and their own anxiety in real time. Including at times sharing things that hurt to hear.

A therapist who goes in to quickly help them problem solve the unpleasant “differences" is the kiss of death for a symbiotic couple b/c a symbiotic couple is in a dead relationship because of the symbiosis.  The point is not to jump in and stop the anxiety of differentiation.  Problem solving to speed it along and pulling for merger so they don’t have to feel the anxiety …THAT …keeps the couple stuck in symbiosis.  You make nice and have a dead relationship.

Moving from an enmeshed relationship to two differentiated people is a long process and takes time. Often there is a lack of attraction or sexual interest in long time enmeshed partners.  When they do the hard work of differentiation, it often enlivens and brings juice into the relationship. Things start to get sexy in a big way. Being seen and heard and accepted in real time, not hiding anymore…that’s pretty sexy. Being afraid all the time.  Not so sexy.

It starts with both of them practicing staying focused on what is happening inside of themselves and giving voice to that and owning their own experience…rather than business as usual... .not constantly personalizing and pinging off of what they think or imagine their partner is up to or feeling. Thats merger stuff. Stoping the blurred boundaries, stopping the merger dynamics.   Not staying only in their heads, not constantly sparing and reacting TO their partner…but Self defining of themselves, self activating themselves,  Over and over and over again.  It feels yucky, it creates anxiety,  but it has to be done.

Both have to learn to stay in a self-defining place, and be able to hear each other while they self-define (not agree with them, BUT HEAR THEM, deeply) which means being vulnerable emotionally,  and taking risks and managing anxiety. It’s not about staying analytical, it’s not a chess game.

The therapist can’t help them if they collude with the couple to pull back to symbiosis and go along with business as usual to make nice …. though both will likely pull for it, b/c it's how they are organized.  The point of growing from merger dynamics into differentiation IS NOT about avoiding anxiety and fixing everything quickly so they are on the same page, that’s just business as usual…the growth needed requires exactly the opposite of that, actually.

This may or may not apply to GK and his wife specifically…but it’s a sound approach generally to any two people trying to move out of enmeshment.

Thank you for a very interesting discussion, MaybeSo.

Would it be correct to conclude from what you are saying here that not defining the relationship too specifically (romantic/non romantic, polyamorous/monogamous, cohabitation/living apart) might be a healthy thing at this point?

My thought had been that you can't start to heal a relationship that you cannot define . . . .

hmmm

I don’t know…... most people go to couples therapy feeling confused about what the h** is going on with their relationship... .

Defining the relationship…is it poly or open or whatever…

I guess that is up to the couple.

I think as part of the work they can both keep exploring and self-defining what each of them want, individually... .With the understanding that they may not be on the same page.

I think it’s reasonable to request that during the time they are in therapy, both of them refrain from becoming intimately involved with someone else.    

The trap potentially could be

lets not self-define and take emotional risks together and be vulnerable... .

instead…

lets decide we can’t possibly move forward and do the hard emotional work until we problem solve what flavor of (deadened) relationship we are going to have going forward.



I think we mostly create our own road blocks and distractions to intimacy, mostly out of thin air, mostly to avoid discomfort.  

I think doing the hard work would organically, as a matter of course…help the couple define what kind of relationship they are going to have.  Including the basics, like, are we even staying married or not.




 

Ain't that the truth!  lol lol lol

I think that both my wife and I have been spending some time with discomfort in the last few weeks  :)

And I just got off a phone call with my wife, which I concluded by thanking her for several things, one of them being saving money, 'cuz we'd been talking about a bunch of stuff that we got out of the way before our therapy session tomorrow. (An hour and a half on the phone, 'tho much of it was lighter topics.)  We really do enjoy talking with each other. That showed up again.

I did tell her that I wasn't ready to move back in with her yet. (She did say that she wasn't planning to move onto the boat in March anyway.) That I was working out things for myself that had become control battles with her.

Somewhere she started talking about how she was doing all she could to avoid building a boat with me over the last... .well... .decade, that her intuition was telling her that it was a bad idea. I acknowledged that she was doing much better now at listening to and honoring that intuition than she did back then. She also acknowledged that I was responding better to it.

This was probably the most important exchange, distilled down:

"I don't think our marriage will work if we don't fix the sex thing"

"I don't think it will either. (I'd rather have an ex-husband than a half-husband.)"

"Then we now have a new goal in therapy--to fix this."


|iiii Yup. I'm doing that. I suspect my wife is too... .and I think that formally stating it would be an excellent idea.

*mod*

This topic ha snow been locked as it has reached its posting limit

Now continued here:

I'm starting to move on (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271318.new#new)

Thank you for your participation

Waverider