She had said she had something to tell me, and she didn't know how I was going to react.

[Cat Familiar]

I was with my first husband for almost two decades and when I first was on my own, it was incredibly unfamiliar, freeing and sometimes I felt very alone. I realized how much I had compromised and neglected to support my own choices, just to try to please him and get along with him.

Even if you get back together with your wife in the future, I hope you have some time just for yourself to explore just how you want to live life, without wrapping yourself around trying to meet the needs of another person. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[myself]

She appears to be going full-force on her long-distance-flirting r/s, texting up a storm with the guy every time I see her.

Wow. She can't even set that aside while with you, while supposedly working on/trying to figure out with you which direction your marriage is going to go? Even though you've expressed how that hurts you and complicates the situation even more than it already is? Doesn't that feel disrespectful at the very least? She's choosing to push and pull herself, dragging you (willingly) along. It sounds like you're waiting for her to be the one to pull the plug, instead of doing what's best for yourself on your own. Let her go. She's not really there anyway. (Those 'Ten Beliefs', again.)

[vortex of confusion]

She appears to be going full-force on her long-distance-flirting r/s, texting up a storm with the guy every time I see her. Her feelings on this one seem to vacillate between moments of clarity (When he told her he had a crush on her, she was gobsmacked and really uncertain what she should do about it. Another day, she called it an emotional affair) and moments of complete denial that anything romantic is going on with him.

She is texting with him while she is with you? Sounds like it might be a good time to set a boundary on this. If she is with you and the two of you are supposed to be working on your marriage, no texting with other people. How often do you see each other these days? It doesn't matter what kind of r/s she has with this person. If she is with you and the the two of you are supposed to be working on things, it is really rude for her to do that.

One of the worst blows that I had was when I told my husband that I wanted to cuddle with him. He said okay but he sat there and chatted and texted with another woman the whole time. I got really mad and told him that if we were spending time together, I didn't want him chatting/texting with other people. And if he did, then he needed to be a little more discreet about it because what he was doing was really rude and was contributing to my feelings of being rejected. And, that is one thing, among many, that contributes to me feeling like I can't trust my husband.

You seem to have glossed over that little detail. You might ask yourself WHY?

[formflier]

 

I have similar "arguments" discussions with my wife.  She likes lots of noise on... .so... TV on... .laptop on her lap... .and phone in her hand.

Texting, facebooking, watching some show... all at same time.

I realize I can't have it my way all of the time... .so I sometimes hang out in her world...   It usually ends badly because she will repeat a question... .and I will say something about already answering it... .what part did you miss out on.  Basically... she wasn't paying attention.

Sometimes I will ask for her undivided attention... .and there is usually a huff for 5 minutes or so... .and then she calms down... .and seems to enjoy it.  I just have to work through it.

Funny... .we sometimes have productive conversations when not distracted... .I don't remember any good conversations while multitasking. 

I sometimes wonder what her purpose is with all of the multitasking.

[patientandclear]

This isn't just multi-tasking.

I don't understand the insistence in various posts in this thread that GK's wife is working on their marriage. GK's wife's last explicit statements on the situation are that she doesn't want to be in a romantic r/s or have sex with GK. She does want to be in close-ish touch and she may go to MC. And she is sad about the potential loss.

And ... .She is having an emotional affair in front of him.

GK, you are so great. I'm sorry you are faced with processing all this. But I do think realism about what is being said and done is important. As The Road Less Traveled author says, mental health is the choice of reality over comfort.

(Sometimes I resent mental health like crazy.)

[myself]

It's gone beyond 'emotional affair'. Haven't they already been physical?

This seems to be about boundaries and respect. Actual connections, or not.

Here's something you posted just a couple weeks ago, Grey Kitty:

"I told my wife that what she did hurt me. I even told her that I couldn't come back to our marriage if she continued being in contact with the guy. She did (after a lot of time and effort and struggle on both our parts) decide she was cutting contact with him.

Now she has told me that she is still friends with him, that she doesn't just cut off friends, and that at an important event for us that will happen in the summer but requires planning already, she will be friends with him. Sorta implying that she won't seek him out, but won't avoid him either. (She has also said she isn't going to be a lover with him; I don't trust this statement.)"

Most recently, she's still 'friends with him' right in your face. Doesn't want a committed married sexual r/s with you, while he's still in the picture (wasn't sure, but is now much more so). Doesn't want cheating in her r/s, so if she cuts off sexual contact with you she won't be 'cheating' anymore. That's convenient. She also won't have to "seek him out" when that time comes>>  He'll know right where to find her. From "texting up a storm" to "not avoiding" is probably quite likely. You're the 'friend' she doesn't want to "just cut off". Because she's wading into loss, and something scary, new, exhilarating... .Those are her steps. Live your own. Live your life.

[Grey Kitty]

Songbook, I'm afraid I've confused you, and perhaps I overstated the degree of texting she does with me.

My wife did cheat on me with Guy1. She did cut contact with Guy1, but is now telling me she wants to be friends with Guy1. [And I'm still not OK with that]

My wife did not cheat with Guy2. She flirts with him outrageously by text message. [Aside: I have met and like Guy2 reasonably well]

And as for texting Guy2 in front of me... .she's pretty well behaved about it. She doesn't text during heavy conversations with me. We were together for hours (dinner plus watching the superbowl in a bar/restaurant) and for the most part she was only texting him when I stepped away to go to the bathroom (or when she was in the bathroom herself). She was also sharing some of the conversation with me, in a spirit of openness and wanting me to know what is going on in this r/s, or just 'cuz he said something funny that she wanted me to see.

Neither of us are much for multi-tasking conversations... .occasionally keeping two or three texting/chatting conversations going switching back and forth, but not while actually talking face to face or voice.

[KateCat]

Count me as confused too. Did you hear her say something other than this GK?

GK's wife's last explicit statements on the situation are that she doesn't want to be in a romantic r/s or have sex with GK. She does want to be in close-ish touch and she may go to MC. And she is sad about the potential loss.

Does anyone in your real-life Team Grey Kitty feel that your wife is capable of more than this in your marriage?

[myself]

Oh, I see. There are two other guys involved.

(Other issues than just texting, too... .Perhaps another time?)

Why are you defending her instead of your own boundaries?

[Grey Kitty]

songbook, I've always been OK with my wife being a flirt. The texting with Guy2 is on the edge, but not crossing my boundaries, so I'm not enforcing them yet.

Count me as confused too. Did you hear her say something other than this GK?

GK's wife's last explicit statements on the situation are that she doesn't want to be in a romantic r/s or have sex with GK. She does want to be in close-ish touch and she may go to MC. And she is sad about the potential loss.

Does anyone in your real-life Team Grey Kitty feel that your wife is capable of more than this in your marriage?

Yes, it is confusing. Real life Team GK sure feels that I'm worth more than this. (So do I!) I don't know how much hope they are holding out for my wife these days.

The encouraging part is that my wife has been stuffing/denying/been confused by these feelings for a long time. That she's acknowledging them, and is vulnerable enough to share them with me is the bright spot.

The other encouraging thing I heard was when I called her to admit that I was running out of commitment to our marriage as it is, she was working pretty hard to point out the commitments she is making. She is working on her own issues really hard right now, which is probably the biggest thing to help our marriage. What she is committing today isn't enough, but she really sounded like she didn't want me to give up hope on us.

Monday afternoon we've got another MC appointment. I've got important stuff coming up for me. I'm pretty sure my wife has important stuff coming up for her too. She just drove back into town this evening, and called me as she was going by... .was somewhat willing to see me if I needed something, but didn't have a lot of energy for it, so she went the rest of the way home.

[KateCat]

I keep remembering a question posed by formflier on one of your threads: "What does she think her choices are? What does she think your choices are?"

Are you any closer to answers today?

[waverider]

BFF wont work with an BPDex, there will always strings being tugged. Boundaries will still be crossed and blurred, some gamesmanship. Might start with best intentions but once you officially have that space you will relish the freedom and see it as futile

Your time on staying has taught you to put all this together so that you can move on without endless "what if" moments... you will quickly wrap it all up into the reality it is, in hindsight.

I sense you have been scraping the barrel using your last shots now with one eye on clock knowing knock of time is getting close.

Do you think its time now for you to start heading towards Undecided Board?

[KateCat]

She just drove back into town this evening, and called me as she was going by... .was somewhat willing to see me if I needed something, but didn't have a lot of energy for it, so she went the rest of the way home.

I hope very soon you'll be Guy #1 for somebody. 

[MaybeSo]

I have a bit of a different take on this.

First of all, I don’t think GK’s wife qualifies as a pwBPD at least not anymore. I am reminded as I read these posts about Steph and her husband who was diagnosed with BPD (mood swings, lots of raging, suicidal ideation).  He went into treatment and got better.  He ended up leaving the relationship (temporarily) because Steph’s codependence stayed about the same, while he improved himself. Once Steph got into doing her own work and really dealt with her codependent approach to the r/s, they then did couples therapy, the relationship improved and they got back together and have been a very successful couple.    

The stuff GK and his wife are dealing with today is stuff many couples deal with, without either one being mentally ill.

They may grow through this crises and slowly move into a more honest, more mature relationship with more intimacy.  If they do…getting there won’t look pretty.  It will look much like what GK is describing.  Growth isn’t pretty.  :)oesn’t mean it isn’t growth.  

Or, through this more honest time where they have taken some distance and are speaking their own truth and trying to break through the enmeshment…they may come to the conclusion to call it quits.

One of the hardest things to do is hold onto yourself when all the questions are not yet answered…b/c that is so anxiety producing…and most folks jump to a conclusion and personalize it and blow it up fast to avoid the anxiety.

GK is sitting with not knowing, he is sitting with the anxiety of not knowing, and so is his wife.  That is hard work. That is grown up work.  There may personal reasons and logistical reason to make decision by such and such a date…but that is all choice, too.

This is all choice.  If this were a life or death DV relationship, if life and limb were on the line,  I’d say ….get the h** out and move on with your life.

That is NOT what is happening here.  I see that both people are being forced to pop-out of their enmeshment due to a crises (the affair)…and growth usually does follow a crises of this nature, otherwise nothing changes... That’s how growth works.

Growth is not pretty.

 

It doesn’t even always mean the relationship will last, but it’s still growth.

I think both GK and his wife are really trying to grow out of an enmeshed system.  Maybe they will have to break-up to do that, I don’t know.  

They are both willing to do some hard work, they have agreed to see a couples therapist, they are doing the homework, they are trying to connect and have the hard discussions and to self-define. This is tuff stuff.

I think there is growth here…even if they decide to part.

No matter what happens... .GK already is Guy #1.  

[KateCat]

MaybeSo, do you think it would be helpful for GK's wife to be taking a proactive role at this time? Maybe a role of bringing some clear definitions to the choices the couple is facing?

I could be mistaken, but it seems she has recently stated that she doesn't want a romantic relationship with her husband, at least at this time, but she has also said she is not proposing a "companionate marriage."

What might bring greater clarity for GK at this time, do you think? And how long do you think this crisis state (or limbo state) might go on before it has persisted too long?

[KateCat]

ADDED: I also think it would be a shame if a pre-determined deadline date, like the end of February, dictated the fate of such a longstanding relationship.

[vortex of confusion]

MaybeSo, do you think it would be helpful for GK's wife to be taking a proactive role at this time? Maybe a role of bringing some clear definitions to the choices the couple is facing?

It sounds like she is being proactive on some levels. She is the one that schedules the MC appointments. She is opening up about her feelings even if it is sometimes difficult for GK to hear it. In such a long relationship, it can be very difficult to overcome past baggage. It may be difficult to bring clear definition if one isn't really clear with things to begin with. I know it is frustrating as I feel my husband and I are in a similar situation. One of the revelations that I have recently had is that I have been looking to my husband to provide answers, definitions, directions but all that did was frustrate me. I have recently started trying to take a look at what I want and the honest answer is that I don't really know.

I could be mistaken, but it seems she has recently stated that she doesn't want a romantic relationship with her husband, at least at this time, but she has also said she is not proposing a "companionate marriage."

I could so easily say this same thing to my husband. Part of it is because, at this time, I cannot see myself being married to him in the long term. I know that things need to change and be different but I am not certain what those things need to be. I feel like I have completely fallen out of love with my husband. I love him but not like that. Will those feelings come back once he and I sort out or individual and combined "stuff"? I don't know. What I do know is that being pressured does not help me to sort things out at all. It makes me anxious and even more undecided and confused.

[waverider]

I think both GK and his wife are really trying to grow out of an enmeshed system.  Maybe they will have to break-up to do that, I don’t know.  

I think there is merit in this. In order to see if this is a possibility I think there is needed to be a clear break for a self assessment period to rediscover themselves as stand alone individuals. All the resentment and bitterness that still exist will provide hair triggers for reactive behavior. Only time regrowing will wash this out of the system.

Maybe it may reach a harmonious rapport apart, and stay that way, but if it recycled will it revert? Who knows.

Either way space where neither is walking on eggshells to enable self discovery and consolidation is important otherwise small triggers will raise old reactions and doubts again

[KateCat]

Waverider's proposal takes me out of the "confused" category. Makes total sense in my book.

[Grey Kitty]

MaybeSo, do you think it would be helpful for GK's wife to be taking a proactive role at this time? Maybe a role of bringing some clear definitions to the choices the couple is facing?

... .

What might bring greater clarity for GK at this time, do you think? And how long do you think this crisis state (or limbo state) might go on before it has persisted too long?

You asked MaybeSo, but it is my marriage, so I'll answer    Yes, it would be helpful if my wife was more proactive. However I cannot change this, all I can do is work on my side of the fence... .and give her room to be as proactive as she is. (If you were having a conversation with her, I'd hope you suggest it for her... .instead of suggesting that I do something!)

The question of how long to live in limbo is one I think of often. When I get serious about it, look for the post on Undecided instead of Staying.

I think both GK and his wife are really trying to grow out of an enmeshed system.  Maybe they will have to break-up to do that, I don’t know. 

I think there is merit in this. In order to see if this is a possibility I think there is needed to be a clear break for a self assessment period to rediscover themselves as stand alone individuals. All the resentment and bitterness that still exist will provide hair triggers for reactive behavior. Only time regrowing will wash this out of the system.

Maybe it may reach a harmonious rapport apart, and stay that way, but if it recycled will it revert? Who knows.

Either way space where neither is walking on eggshells to enable self discovery and consolidation is important otherwise small triggers will raise old reactions and doubts again

The crisis turned what was going to be a few weeks separation into a few months (and counting) separation.

The separation is helping me de-enmesh. I suspect that my wife is finding similar benefit. I've decided that I need more time, as this is a big job. (It is now reason #3 for separation) I will be bringing this up in MC with my wife tomorrow... .If my wife wants more time physically separated too, I won't be surprised.

It somehow seems very symbolic that the space where my ring isn't on my left hand still feels VERY obvious to me. I wonder how fast the changes in my mind/heart will occur relative to the changes on my finger.

ADDED: I also think it would be a shame if a pre-determined deadline date, like the end of February, dictated the fate of such a longstanding relationship.

We both have to decide what to do in March.

My wife has a hard calendar deadline and cannot continue living where she is.

I plan to continue living on my boat, however I am approaching being ready to launch... .around the same timeframe. I've got some projects I am going to finish before I launch, and more projects that could be done either before or after... .so I've got an earliest possible time, defined by jobs, not the calendar.

Our current status is kinda in limbo, but not fully static. I think we're ready for something different. I'm curious what my wife is looking for.

I'm eager for the new life for me that is less enmeshed with my wife... .whatever happens to my marriage!

[KateCat]

GK, if you sail off next month, without your wife, do you have in mind any ground rules for yourself about what level of communication and interaction you would have with her in the months following? Is that something the marriage counselor could help you both with?

[MaybeSo]

MaybeSo, do you think it would be helpful for GK's wife to be taking a proactive role at this time? Maybe a role of bringing some clear definitions to the choices the couple is facing?

As is appropriate GK answered for himself regarding his specific thoughts as it pertain to his understanding of his situation.

I can only offer in general terms what would be in my opinion, a good approach in therapy for a couple who has been organized around enmeshed dynamics.

Couples who are enmeshed will automatically keep pulling for symbiosis (enmeshment).   Even though the symbiosis is what is deadening the relationship. Breaking out of symbiosis will create anxiety. There is no way around it.

Moving to problem solve in an effort to fix the messy anxiety of differentiation is the kiss of death for codependent partners. A good therapist will not fall into that trap.

Couples that are symbiotic only grow by exercising emotional muscle and learning to hold onto themselves and their own anxiety in real time. Including at times sharing things that hurt to hear.

A therapist who goes in to quickly help them problem solve the unpleasant “differences" is the kiss of death for a symbiotic couple b/c a symbiotic couple is in a dead relationship because of the symbiosis.  The point is not to jump in and stop the anxiety of differentiation.  Problem solving to speed it along and pulling for merger so they don’t have to feel the anxiety …THAT …keeps the couple stuck in symbiosis.  You make nice and have a dead relationship.

Moving from an enmeshed relationship to two differentiated people is a long process and takes time. Often there is a lack of attraction or sexual interest in long time enmeshed partners.  When they do the hard work of differentiation, it often enlivens and brings juice into the relationship. Things start to get sexy in a big way. Being seen and heard and accepted in real time, not hiding anymore…that’s pretty sexy. Being afraid all the time.  Not so sexy.

It starts with both of them practicing staying focused on what is happening inside of themselves and giving voice to that and owning their own experience…rather than business as usual... .not constantly personalizing and pinging off of what they think or imagine their partner is up to or feeling. Thats merger stuff. Stoping the blurred boundaries, stopping the merger dynamics.   Not staying only in their heads, not constantly sparing and reacting TO their partner…but Self defining of themselves, self activating themselves,  Over and over and over again.  It feels yucky, it creates anxiety,  but it has to be done.

Both have to learn to stay in a self-defining place, and be able to hear each other while they self-define (not agree with them, BUT HEAR THEM, deeply) which means being vulnerable emotionally,  and taking risks and managing anxiety. It’s not about staying analytical, it’s not a chess game.

The therapist can’t help them if they collude with the couple to pull back to symbiosis and go along with business as usual to make nice …. though both will likely pull for it, b/c it's how they are organized.  The point of growing from merger dynamics into differentiation IS NOT about avoiding anxiety and fixing everything quickly so they are on the same page, that’s just business as usual…the growth needed requires exactly the opposite of that, actually.

This may or may not apply to GK and his wife specifically…but it’s a sound approach generally to any two people trying to move out of enmeshment.

[KateCat]

Thank you for a very interesting discussion, MaybeSo.

Would it be correct to conclude from what you are saying here that not defining the relationship too specifically (romantic/non romantic, polyamorous/monogamous, cohabitation/living apart) might be a healthy thing at this point?

My thought had been that you can't start to heal a relationship that you cannot define . . . .

[MaybeSo]

My thought had been that you can't start to heal a relationship that you cannot define . . . .

hmmm

I don’t know…... most people go to couples therapy feeling confused about what the h** is going on with their relationship... .

Defining the relationship…is it poly or open or whatever…

I guess that is up to the couple.

I think as part of the work they can both keep exploring and self-defining what each of them want, individually... .With the understanding that they may not be on the same page.

I think it’s reasonable to request that during the time they are in therapy, both of them refrain from becoming intimately involved with someone else.    

The trap potentially could be

lets not self-define and take emotional risks together and be vulnerable... .

instead…

lets decide we can’t possibly move forward and do the hard emotional work until we problem solve what flavor of (deadened) relationship we are going to have going forward.



I think we mostly create our own road blocks and distractions to intimacy, mostly out of thin air, mostly to avoid discomfort.  

I think doing the hard work would organically, as a matter of course…help the couple define what kind of relationship they are going to have.  Including the basics, like, are we even staying married or not.




 

[Grey Kitty]

I think we mostly create our own road blocks and distractions to intimacy, mostly out of thin air, mostly to avoid discomfort.   

Ain't that the truth! 

I think that both my wife and I have been spending some time with discomfort in the last few weeks 

And I just got off a phone call with my wife, which I concluded by thanking her for several things, one of them being saving money, 'cuz we'd been talking about a bunch of stuff that we got out of the way before our therapy session tomorrow. (An hour and a half on the phone, 'tho much of it was lighter topics.)  We really do enjoy talking with each other. That showed up again.

I did tell her that I wasn't ready to move back in with her yet. (She did say that she wasn't planning to move onto the boat in March anyway.) That I was working out things for myself that had become control battles with her.

Somewhere she started talking about how she was doing all she could to avoid building a boat with me over the last... .well... .decade, that her intuition was telling her that it was a bad idea. I acknowledged that she was doing much better now at listening to and honoring that intuition than she did back then. She also acknowledged that I was responding better to it.

This was probably the most important exchange, distilled down:

"I don't think our marriage will work if we don't fix the sex thing"

"I don't think it will either. (I'd rather have an ex-husband than a half-husband.)"

"Then we now have a new goal in therapy--to fix this."

I think it’s reasonable to request that during the time they are in therapy, both of them refrain from becoming intimately involved with someone else. 

Yup. I'm doing that. I suspect my wife is too... .and I think that formally stating it would be an excellent idea.

[waverider]

This topic ha snow been locked as it has reached its posting limit

Now continued here:

I'm starting to move on

Thank you for your participation

Waverider