BPDFamily.com

I am a rescuer.  I was 'saving' my BPDh constantly, so I've recently figured out.  So, I made a pact with myself to stop. It's been tough, he has had several extinction bursts in response, but over time, things are getting better.  But I have to be on constant alert.

I tend to fall very hard into being a victim.  It's tough not to, my mom and most every woman I knew personally lived life as a victim in some way.  But I'm learning techniques and skills to keep from letting things get too out of hand.

I use passive-aggressive communication techniques that are harmful to the person I'm communicating with.  As soon as saw me in the list of examples for this the hairs stood up on the back of my neck.  Changing this in me is going to make a big difference in the way we interact with each other.

I also invalidate my BPDh in ways I didn't realize I was doing before.  It's really hard to get excited about what he is saying and listen intently when I've heard the same record over and over and over... .but I've learned that when he does this, all he really wants is my attention, so I ask him something about himself, and that changes the subject, but keeps the focus on him and a lot of the time it goes pretty good.

It's been tough taking my own personal inventory, looking at what I have lost, what I've been doing, what I need to do and where I want to go... .it's a long process and one I've only really just begun.   I'll tell ya, tho, it's a lot funner that trying to fix him.     

|iiii Ain't that the truth!

Good work coming up with that list. Is there one item on the list you want to delve into more deeply here?

The one I'm having the most trouble with right now, is my passive-aggressiveness.  Mostly it has become a knee-jerk reaction to his criticism of me:

Him: "Why didn't you do X?"

Me: "I don't know, because I'm a three year old and cant think for myself."

or "Boys, it must get so exhausted having to give instruction on how everything is done in this place all the time.  No wonder you are so tired all the time." 

or "Because I knew it would piss you off and I thought you'd like that."

It seems I can come up with a million of these.   

At group, they suggested that we simply respond with the silent treatment.  But if I use the silent treatment, which I have been trying to do this week, it seems he gets invalidated by that.  Most of the time he responses with something like, "You must really hate me." or "I'm just a big jerk to you, aren't I?"  (Pretty hard to bite my tongue on that one, but I'm getting better!)   Unfortunately, this is when I get pulled into justifying myself.  This is a dynamic I haven't been able to break from yet.

The second suggestion they had is to use the 'broken record' method.  If someone is not hearing you say what you are saying, you simply keep repeating it.  This just fuels his anger.  He feels I am being selfish, or I 'just want to argue' if I don't take the bait and get into more detail.  So again, I end up justifying my actions or explaining myself.

FYI, my group is about taking charge of one's life, not BPD or anything specific to my situation.  So these suggestions may work in other situations, but I'm finding them rather useless with my H.

I've been trying to formulate a response, using SET but, I have a really hard time sympathizing with him when he is attempting to control my actions.  It comes out sounding really sarcastic, which puts me right back to square one. 

Here's the basic response I've come up with:

"I understand it bothers you when I don't do things your way. It must be difficult having to live that way.  "... .comes out sounding condescending.  And I know why, because I don't really understand why he constantly does this and I have no empathy for someone who is trying to control the actions of another.  And anyway, it feels wrong to give positive feedback to a negative comment. 

Any suggestions in this regard would certainly be welcome.

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Another issue I have is a lack of trust in him.  He can be very sneaky and deceptive and likes to have secrets, but it isn't constant, it's an up/down thing.  Sometimes he is very good at owning his actions and being honest with me, and other times he will lie with the evidence right in front of him and never ever own his actions.  Living with this dynamic for so long has left me with no trust left in him and without him trying to be truthful, I am not sure what I can do to alter my behaviours to help with this.

Last night, I feel asleep on the couch waiting for him to finish something he was doing so that we could watch our nightly episode of our favourite TV program.  When I woke up, an hour and a half later, he had the program blaring in my ear and turned so that the computer was facing only him (we watch everything online).  I was instantly angry, and I started in at him for being selfish, for not thinking of me even after I waited for him for so long.  Luckily, he recognized that my reaction was not justified in the moment, and he let me rant, changed the subject and things passed.  I apologized to him later, and he was very smug about the whole thing.

But the truth is, I have awoken in the middle of the night to find him watching porn so many times, that I'm programmed to react this way, and I'm not sure how to un-program myself. 

It's most likely a natural response, me not trusting him, but it is something that is really holding us back and if there is something I can do to help me with this, I will do it.  I just have no clue what that could be.

Is it even right to want to trust someone who has proven they are untrustworthy?  Maybe I need RA here? Would accepting what is help me to not react so instinctively?  I feel I'm up against a brick wall here.

Allow me to translate what he just said:

Him: "Here is an engraved invitation for you to start JADEing at me, which will invalidate me and give me an excuse to dysregulate at you"

Directly answering that sort of question will never have a good outcome.

If you remember the computer in the old move War Games... .this quote comes to mind: "Thermonuclear war is a funny game. The only way to win is not to play."

So what can you do in this situation?

1. Boundary enforcement--The boundary being "I will not be pulled into a toxic discussion like this."

1A: Silence. Just don't talk about it / refuse to answer.

1A, part two: Walk away if he keeps talking about it. The whole point of this boundary enforcement is to protect you. If you start getting verbal crap thrown at you, staying silent and listening to it and getting angry isn't protecting yourself.

1B: Tell him directly that it is an unanswerable question, and that you aren't going to play that game.

You could compare it to the classic question ":)o you still beat your wife?" Any answer you give to that question is incriminating.

I've been known to say "I won't play that game." and shut up.

When presented with something provocative and triggering, I've been known to reply with "F*** you." in a calm, firm, almost deadpan voice. It is a way of acknowledging that what was just said was provocative and hurtful, and leaving it at that. Screaming it doesn't work the same way at all. (My wife had this pattern--She would say something invalidating. I would call her on it, let her know that it hurt... .she would then respond with a bigger and more personal invalidating statement, and I would call her on it, a little less calmly... .escalating until I was mad enough to shout at her. This response was a way to avoid that ugly pattern.)

2. Validation--If his feelings about this are clear to you, validate them. If his feelings aren't clear, you can ask about his feelings.

"You sound upset that I didn't do 'X'"

If you are feeling triggered/upset/worried/expecting the explosion, don't try validation. If you aren't feeling compassion for him, and honestly caring about how he is feeling, he is sensitive enough to notice, and it won't work well.



Sounds like two issues here.

1. You are triggered by situations like that one where you woke up upset by what he was doing.

2. You don't trust him.

The first one has a PTSD-like flavor. It may not be that severe, but you were traumatized/hurt, and you find yourself in situations that bring back those feelings even though the current situation isn't the same. If you research PTSD you will find suggestions on how to deal with it and how to deprogram yourself about it.

(Aside: Consider whether his watching porn actually harms you or your marriage. Men watching porn and women reading romance novels are pretty similar in a lot of ways. In some people they become unhealthy obsessions, while many people can occasionally do such things without causing any harm. It would be fair to ask your husband not to watch it in front of you or while you are dozing on the couch next to him, simply out of courtesy to you.)

The second... .part... .not trusting him. Time for radical acceptance. He hasn't behaved in trustworthy ways. He hasn't made any fundamental changes. Your lack of trust in him (in certain areas, at least) is pretty well justified. Don't try to talk yourself out of it. Believe yourself.

And one area not to trust him is don't trust him to be emotionally mature with discussions about whether you trust him or not!

I'm going to try remembering this the next time it happens.  At one point, I began to recognize some of his comments as no-win situations, just like the thermonuclear war analogy |iiii

you suggest.  It made him really upset when I responded with "I'm taking the fifth here, this is a lose-lose question you are asking me.", so I stopped using this, but it could be that it was triggering an extinction burst for him.  At the time, I figured that what I said was the wrong thing to say, and stopped using it. It's so hard to know what the right thing to do is... .



Thank you, safety first, right.  The other day, I did remove myself from the situation as best as possible while he was just over the top with his constant badgering.  But I did so to cry, to vent out my frustrations, because it became too much for me to handle.  If I had walked away sooner, perhaps it would not have come to that.

Perhaps I'm being too inconsistent with letting the comments pass vs keeping strict boundaries.  I thought I was 'picking my battles', but it could be that to him, I'm giving him that inch that makes him think he can take a mile.


I know about PTSD.  I was diagnosed with it over fifteen years ago, because of childhood trauma.  I learned the tools necessary to deal with it then.  This is part of how I realized that H's behaviours were really having a deep effect on me, because these symptoms were starting to come back.  I've been reading over my old notes as a refresher.  


I've had an open mind about porn all along, but early on, we simply didn't need it, our passion for each other was enough.  After a few years, he started sneaking around, watching it when I was out of the house, or in bed.  When I confronted him on it, I suggested that if he wants to watch it, we watch together.  Or if he wants to watch alone, we need to put some settings on the computer for the sake of anonymity.  (I hated opening it up and seeing evidence of it everywhere).  

He assured me safeties weren't necessary.  That if we watched together, he wouldn't do it alone.  We watched it together once, and the next three nights, he was up getting his fill while I was fast asleep.  I countered with putting a complete child safety on the whole thing, no porn access at all, and a big ugly letter about the negative results of porn, that would automatically pop up if he tried.  

We have sex so rarely now, that I don't care anymore that he does this.  He can run away from a real r/s and enjoy masturbating to strangers, if it's easier for him.  He now has my 'permission' to do what he wishes and the settings on the computer keep me oblivious to his actions.  Unfortunately, this arrangement still feeds my insecurities, and pushes me farther away, but I suppose this makes it my issue and not our issue.

 


:)  How true, good advice!  

RA all the way on this one, I guess.  I can't picture how a r/s without trust can grow.  I suppose it can't.  To accept this in it's fullest is going to take some time.  I see trust as fundamental for a healthy r/s.  But a healthy r/s is out of reach for us.  The best I can hope for, I suppose is reasonably healthy, meaning not hurtful - neutral, maybe.

Thanks for your help. Things are slowing coming into focus.

 

I think your relationship will grow more with radical acceptance right now.

Obviously areas where you don't trust him will limit growth in your relationship. Pretending that they aren't there, or choosing to trust him in areas where he is likely to fail to live up to your trust and end up with you getting hurt will do more damage to your r/s than simply accepting that you cannot trust him in *some* areas.

I'd say that there are many areas where you can and do trust him. There are other areas you can't, or there are limits to how far you can trust him.

Yep, radical acceptance is difficult. But worth it.

I came up with a good one yesterday.  He was at me, and most of it I ignored, until he asked me a direct question I was not prepared to answer.   With a smile in my eyes, I said, "oh, no! on, no!  I think a spring is gonna let go."  I bounced my hand up and down a few times, then 'boing!,' up popped the middle finger.  He burst out laughing.  I went with it and in an over-dramatic way I said, 'The mechanics of me can't take anymore!  Scotty, she's breaking up! The springs are letting go! You gotta let me dictate my own life, or I'm gonna fall apart!"

He actually giggled and nodded.  He knew what was happening, and I think he appreciated my lighthearted cajoling.  And, low and behold, he apologized later for being 'a controlling jerk'.  That's the first time he has acknowledged that he does this.  A BREAKTHROUGH! 

My gut tells me that the fact that I didn't get upset, but kept my response light and almost fun (with the Star Trek reference), played a big part in his reaction.  I'm trying to remember that his biggest fear is loosing me, and that helps me keep things lighter... .like dealing with a three year old as opposed to a teenager.

 |iiii

When you learn and grow, you give him room to do things differently (and better!) than he has done before.

You both took two steps forward. Sooner or later, at least one of you will take a step backwards, if not fall on your face. When it happens, dust yourself off, cry if you need to... .and know that going forward into territory you've tasted before is easier than getting there the first time.

Well that didn't take long!  I went to bed last night ready to move forward with my decision to take that room at the motel.

Yesterday was a disaster!  I spent three hours swinging a hoe, digging a trench for the snowmelt to run in so it doesn't turn our lane to a mudpit.  I had a good chunk of it done.  I was hyped, proud of myself for doing it and seeing results... .then he comes up the lane.  He goes to the top, where I started and starts stomping at the trench, like he's filling it in... .

We have a possible 8in of rain coming, and at min, six feet of snow everywhere, and plus temperatures across the board for the next week.  He's mad because the trench will interfere with the snow blower.  Yes maybe it will snow, but more plausible is the threat of flooding.  Which is the more sane thing to do?  He'd have me believe I did the wrong thing, and he puts every ounce of his being into convincing me of this.  It's brainwashing (RA).  I'm so insulted by his stance it boggles me.

I went ballistic.  I'm sorry I did, but I did.  I gave him two warnings (1. 'that is hurtful' and ignore, 2. 'I wont discuss this'.  They were unheeded, and when he came at me, verbally, the third time, a switch triggered and I accused him of only being concerned that it was ME that had the idea and ran with it, and not him, that was pissing him off.  The rest, like they say, is history... .it's almost like I hit the 'truth' button, and a bomb exploded inside of him.  Not pretty.  For either of us.

I can't radically accept this behaviour without compromising my values/beliefs, both my behaviour and his.  This isn't the person I want to be, and I won't accept me being this way.  The only way I can safely say I wont get triggered is to not be around him.  If I were stronger, maybe I could stay more consistent with my boundaries and mindfulness.  That's where taking the room comes in.  I want to believe that by taking the time to nurture me, I will be better armed.


Oddly, there have been few tears this time.  I welled up a couple times, but nothing serious.  I'm ready to do things differently, and dusting myself off knowing I'm gonna get dusty again is what I used to do.  Maybe radical , acceptance does lead to radical change... .that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, would it?

  Thanks for the support, GK.   

Getting a safe distance when you are triggered is very important. (Preferably before you blow up)

Were you able to get away from him that evening after the explosion?

I think it is a lot more important to take space at the time you need it, than to completely separate, especially when you've got some tough times before that. Remember, your moving away for the summer season will trigger his fears of abandonment... .so he will be more on edge than usual leading up to that time!


There is a subtle point about radical acceptance that you are missing here.

RA means believe that your husband *WILL* explode at you, invalidate you, and blame you for doing the wrong thing like he did about the drainage trench. That he is capable of doing this kind of thing again, almost certain to.

RA doesn't mean that you stand there and take it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't protect yourself from that kind of behavior. It doesn't even mean you need to stay in a relationship with somebody who behaves that way!

You still enforce boundaries to protect yourself. You still take good care of yourself. You still plan for how you will deal with it next time he blows up / dysregulates.

BTW... .I think taking the room is a very good idea for you. Now back to RA: Your husband will be threatened by it--it will trigger his fear of abandonment. He will behave badly around it. Expect this from him. And expect him to say all kinds of things about it to you, even demand all kinds of things from you... .that (mostly) will be harmful to you and your peace of mind, and not actually help him in the end either.

What can YOU do about its that will help him cope with the situation?

What actions can you take which will make him feel less abandoned by you?

You would do best to discuss this here, and not ask him for ideas--he's probably going to be too triggered to have good ones, or know what will help for the most part.

How long 'till the job starts? How long do you have to prepare for this?

The way it went down, was that he came out to where I was working and started at me.  I did try to leave the location, but that really upset him (because I just left my tools where they were and walked away).  So I told him he had to leave or we were just going to keep hurting each other... .

well, honestly, it was more like get the &$% out of my face before someone gets hurt.  And he did.  We did have a time out from each other for a while, but the evening was tense and, well, eggshell walking all night long.

He did apologize for being so judgemental and not seeing the value in my work.  I know it's hard for him to do this, and I do appreciate it, which I told him.  But I also asked that he give me time to forgive.  That doesn't come so easy.  It's so... .FOG producing.  It takes time to work through this.

H and I haven't reconnected since this yet.  I spent most of yesterday away doing my own thing, and last night, I had the chance to volunteer at an all night event, and I took it.  It was fun just being around other people for that length of time, in spite of getting barely a lick of sleep.  It was good for me.  I didn't tell him before hand, so he had to face the fact I would be gone all night without any room for debate.   |iiii  Worked well.

I got home this morning, and he is still in bed.  We said hi.  He said he couldn't sleep without me in the bed next to him, that he missed me.  But he couldn't have missed me that much, he couldn't even get out of bed to greet the day with me.  Whatever.  That's him.


Very true.  I will keep this in mind, and aim to be more gentle with him.


... .I wish I had a little icon that sticks it's tongue out, then winks!... .meaning, I don't like it, but I hear you.

... .I hear him stirring.  Gotta go.  More on this later... .

I didn't expect you to like it.  I'm challenging you to do stuff that is REALLY HARD.

I hoped that you would see that dealing with it is better than ignoring it. Both are difficult and unpleasant, but one has a reward at the end of it. 

... .okay, so it was the green tea he drank before bed that kept him awake, apparently, and not my absence afterall... .whatever

Job starts in about three weeks at the earliest.  My goal today is to secure my rights to the room with my employer.  But I am considering using the room, basically on an as needed basis.

Our weekends will most likely not match up, and so, with 'my place' and 'our place' lined up, we can use both back and forth on an as needed basis.

Lots of options are swimming around in my head right now.  I'm going to think on things.

Thanks for the support, bpdfamily!


-----------------------------------------

GK, are you procrastinating?

Good questions!  Wish I had more concrete answers... .

I am going to take whatever chances I can to reassure him that I love him.  To reassure him that my goal is a healthier r/s for both of us.  To be gentle and focused, but stick to clear boundaries.  Spend time preparing so I have clear objectives.

... .

I can work on RA that his behaviour will be what it is.  Yep, I have to stop jumping on the denial train, there.  It is tough.

But I can RA change my own behaviours, right.  And one of my issues is not being able to stay the emotionally mature one in the r/s.  I need to figure this out.  How to stay the emotionally mature person in the r/s; or, do I need to RA that I cannot always be this person?  In that case, I'll need a plan b for the times I will not be able to do this.   It's probably not realistic to think that I can be on top of things all the time.

oh my... .I need my coffee

Here are some practical/logistical thoughts for you... .

I've mentioned this tip on mitigating fear of abandonment as an improvement on taking a time out when you are too triggered to be with him a few times before... .

Instead of just going away or saying "I need space.", make a quick assessment of how much time you need to calm down. (Minimum is 15~20 minutes, just for the adrenalin reaction to flush out of both of your bloodstreams!)

Say you are going away, with perhaps some minimal information about where you are going... .and a precise time based statement that you will return in 20 minutes, 2 hours, after work, the next morning, etc.

Avoid words like "soon" or "later" because they are ambiguous.

Then return on schedule. If he's still dysregulated or starts berating you when you walk in the door,  you can leave again (likely for a longer time period than the last one), but convince him with your actions that when you say you are going away for a specific period of time, you will return at the end of it. This builds trust... .which will have him knowing that you will return on schedule. Being abandoned for a specific time period, knowing when it will end is much easier than just being abandoned and having no idea how long it will last.


... .for your time out of town, communicate your work schedule to him clearly, and communicate with him which day you will be returning... .and honor those commitments. (Obviously plans and schedules must change at some times... .so if it happens, communicate the new plan as quickly as you can; your goal is not to surprise him.)

I don't know if you will have 'dead' time where you can chat with him on the phone at random times when there are no customers... .or more fixed working times where you can't be available to him on the phone. Try to work out how available you want to be with him on the phone, as well as how much you can be without interfering with your work... .and whether you would do better talking voice or txting... .but think about this level of communications with him--both what you want and what he wants... .and how you can be consistent and clear.

Here are some other ideas... .from a very different context. The relationship here discussed is a long-distance relationship among polyamorous people, but some things are consistent among any long distance relationships. This article doesn't mention other partners much if at all. These two are also people who are both pretty emotionally mature and self-aware, but still have issues. Your H isn't anywhere near the same level these people are, I'm sure of that!

www.morethantwo.com/blog/2014/12/wlamf-no-35-staying-connected-long-distance-relationships

Theoretically, we can change our behaviors. The problem is that I am with a person that has a vested interest in me NOT changing. I think most of us are in relationships with people that don't want to see us change. Change is difficult no matter who you are or what the circumstances.

I think it is helpful for me (and you) to accept that we are going to have days when we are immature. There are going to be days when the best that I can do is to walk away. I don't think it is humanly possible for a person to be the bigger person all of the time. Putting that kind of expectation on myself has gotten me into all sorts of trouble. I spent 15 years trying to be the strong one that kept everything together. One day a couple of years ago, I snapped and I did a bunch of things that I regret.

I have friends that let me be weak and immature and goofy. I need a place where I can get that out of my system because I cannot be on top of things all of the time no matter how hard I try. If I slip up and get that way with my husband, so be it.

Ain't that the truth! What is amazing is that you may eventually find that you make changes, your partner pretty much fought it every step of the way... .and when it was complete, they were happier with the new way.

Honestly, I think this is pretty much what happens in all relationships where somebody wants to change!

This resistance to change he has is typical, then.  It feels like a brick wall reinforced with steel plating!  I'm struggling with the notion that he needs to be on side with this... .pulls me towards JADE.  He does need to be, on some level (i.e. agreeing to the boundaries of communication, stick to the plan, etc), but this early in the process, I'm just not sure how to set the plan in motion without JADE.

He knows it's on the table, and last night, I suggested that it would really be nice for both of us to have a place near the water for the summer.  I made the statement, he responded with "I don't want to talk about it", then a few minutes later he commented.  I answered the comment, then he went off on a tangent dripping with old issues.  I responded with 'it's okay, we wont talk about it right now.', then after a few minutes, he'd say something else.  This back and for of shutting down the conversation, but continuing it went on for over half an hour.

I tried to stick with simple statements, and used SET (with results this time, I might add.  I noticed he sighed a big sigh when I used it, like it was a big relief that I understood him.  But it didn't seem to stick, like it was short lived.)  Anyway, when the discussion began to get somewhat heated, we agreed to shut it down.  This in itself is a victory for us, letting it go.

I think the gist of my premise got through to him:  I need this, for me.  And a better me makes a better us.  So I have the capacity to make things better, and if I don't... .that's giving up on us more than actually taking this step.  Well, I guess I can't say he got it, but I know the premise was clear in my words.  How he received them is another thing, I suppose.

One thing for sure came out of the efforts for me... .his abandonment issues are very real and very big and very painful for him.   I'm starting to see the emotion behind the comments he makes more clearly, I think, anyways.  I hate just assuming his emotions, but I suppose it's the only way to do it when he is incapable of identifying them himself. 

I also discovered I'd jumped the gun somewhat because he asked me what I wanted him to do while I was away.  The question startled me, something I didn't expect.  I told him it was his choice what he did with his time.  That I would be working on becoming a better person and hence a better partner, but what he does with his time is up to him.  I didn't suggest any self help work of any kind.  But I laid in bed last night, kicking myself for not being more prepared with some concrete suggestions, or boundaries that could have helped define this time apart, for him.

My instinct is to baby him right now, coddle him and reassure him and shower love on him so he sees this isn't about hating him, or running away from him. 

I'll remember to keep the parameters of separation defined and clear, and to stick with them.  And giving myself room to not carry the emotional burdens of the r/s constantly sounds like a pretty healthy option too.  I hope I can somehow learn to do this.  I've gotten so caught up in it all, I'm just not sure how. 

I am feeling supported through this.     Thanks for your words and encouragements.

This is about the best you can do to convince him that taking this job and staying there is a good thing for you, for your marriage, and ultimately for him.  |iiii You are doing good.

However... .correct me if I'm wrong, but you sound like you've resolved that you WILL be taking it, WILL be staying there much of the summer, and WILL be spending a lot more time apart from him this summer.

If this is true, then it is more important to convince him that you will be taking the job and the room... .than it is to convince him that it is something he should support because it is a good idea.


Love him, support him, etc.  |iiii

Try not to protect him from his feelings. He's allowed to feel lonely and rejected, and if you can allow this, and even validate that he's feeling that way... .without trying to take them away from him, it will help. (Note: He's allowed to feel them, and to share them. That doesn't mean you relax boundaries that protect yourself, let him blame you for them etc. He probably isn't very good at doing it the 'right' way.)

This is where the really hard work comes in. I find it difficult to listen to my husband talk about feeling lonely, rejected, etc. without feeling the need to rescue him. That is what got me into a lot of trouble in the past. If he said he was feeling lonely, then I would put MY feelings aside and try to give him more attention. That isn't a bad thing in normal circumstances. The problem is that I would relax a boundary such as limiting phone calls and then I would find myself right back on the merry go round.

I hate seeing my husband (or anyone) suffer and my rescuing/fix it tendencies go into overdrive, especially if I think there is something that I can do to help. There have been so many times when I have wanted to do something and had my husband react to it. Instead of letting him react without changing what I was going to do, I would rearrange my life to accommodate him. The key is to let him react however he is going to react without changing any of my plans. I think the hard work is standing strong when that happens. I can validate until the cows come home but I can't change my plans or back down from my boundaries.

One of the things that I have had to get past is the idea that "If I can fix something or help, then I should." Just because I CAN do something doesn't mean that I should. It isn't mean or selfish of me to sit back and listen without doing anything.

Not rescuing is really hard work indeed. I LOVED this perspective as another reason to do it. (from another topic)

Point taken, GK.  I was sort of thinking about it in baby steps, or cushioning the blow or laying the frame work... .something like that. 

Today was a great step.  We ditched having a home phone, and each got a mobile.  Felt really strange to tell people we have different phone numbers... .but now, I feel like I've been walking on air all day! 

gotta go

Lately, he's being very 'good', very conscientious of his words, very alert to my every move.  This morning he got out of bed before me.  I can't remember the last time that happened! 

Last night he got on about something, and before I could blink, he said "I'm a stinking rotten jerk for saying X."  I forgave him, then asked, do you really believe X?  He said "no but I'm scared of Y."

   ... .is that a slight hint of self awareness I'm seeing?


But then V's words:


screams "Stay on track!" at me.  She's right.  Giving an inch equates to him expecting a mile.

I don't think I can turn back now on this issue without looking like I'm relaxing a boundary, or altering my own course to suit him.  Getting separate phones is a big step in and of itself.  I think he knows in his heart that I am posed to do things different this summer, and taking this room is going to be a part of it.  I am waiting for the right time to be frank about this step, giving him time to adjust slowly.

And maybe I'm just being chicken too.     To use my h's term, perhaps I'm 'rationaLIESing'.  Telling myself lies to convince myself I'm being rational.  He's a smart man who refuses to take his own advice.

Yup, a glimmer. Reminds me of a something that my wife and I did upon occasion... .when getting upset/agitated and fighting about something... .usually something where one of us would kinda notice that the conflict wasn't quite "A vs. B", but more in the form of "not-B vs not-A" For instance... .one time we were thinking of buying an RV... .and one of us didn't want a big Class A or Class C RV that would be hard to park and hard to run errands in... .while the other didn't want to deal with buying both a big expensive truck and buying a trailer.

Anyhow, the way 'out' of this is to realize that "I don't want X" vs. "I don't want Y" is hard to resolve in that way... .and asking the question "What are you afraid of?" really helps... .especially if you are able to be vulnerable enough to say what you are afraid of as well. Then you can look for a solution that avoids the things you are both afraid of.

Once we stopped fighting over which problem we wanted, backed down and realized that neither of us wanted to impose a scary PROBLEM on the other person, and we could have a reasonable discussion looking for a good way to handle things without causing either problem... .and discovered full RV of either side wasn't needed, and ended up with an older full-sized van that had space to sleep in the back of comfortably, and both being happy!


Crumbling... .I'm guessing that you want to further your career, make money, and have some time and space for yourself... .and are afraid of your husband shutting down your growth.

And I'm guessing that your husband is afraid that you will leave him, not believing that you actually love him and want to be with him (because he doesn't believe he is lovable, so of course nobody really loves him, and they just lie about it to get what they need from him). He's probably afraid that the only reason you stick around is because you are dependent on him, and the idea that you would be able to live on your own without him means that you would run away in a heartbeat.

And these fears are turning into a fight over whether you take a job this summer.

Oh, how nice it would be to get to a place where we can discuss options like rational adults!


That's right.  I also want to be able to untangle our enmeshed lives so that we are both better, stronger people both in the r/s and outside of it.  Learning to live together again in a better defined, more healthy way.  This is the part I fear I'm being unrealistic about.  Am I reaching for something that isn't attainable?  Does this conflict with my RA of the situation?



Yep, most likely.  I had the thought the other day that perhaps he will respond with rebellion.  Maybe he will just say f-you, and go off looking for someone else once this move becomes real, and happens.  He is not one to stray, but he is one to get into that 'not giving a poop' mentality.  I want to say I'm ready to face that bridge if and when we get to it, but honestly, I don't know if I am.  I would be left feeling like I'd pushed him into it, and that would be a tough pill to swallow.

I think there are a couple of layers here. First, the WE stuck out. You can want those things for yourself and try to achieve them for yourself. Whether or not your husband wants those things or will go along with them is anybody's guess. I think the part that is unrealistic is trying to push those things on him. I am going to rephrase what you said so that it is more focused on you:

"I also want to untangle our enmeshed lives so that I am a better, stronger person both in the r/s and outside of it. I want to learn to live with him in a better defined, more healthy way."

I think the rephrased version is a bit more realistic because it doesn't rely on him. And it doesn't conflict with RA. Wanting him to be stronger or better may or may not be realistic. It would be nice if he followed your lead but wanting it or expecting it is going to set you up for disappointment and might interfere with RA.


This struck me as you trying to mind read or predict the future. I know. I tend to do it a lot and then behave accordingly. I think it is part of the rescuing/saving/fixing mentality. If I can figure out how my husband will behave or react to something, then I can act so that he will behave in the best way possible. I can save him from himself so to speak. If you do what is best for you and he reacts poorly, that is on HIM not you.

I was recently listening to a podcast on fear and one of the things that stuck out at me was the fact that often times we make up stories and possibilities in our head that may or may not bear any resemblance to reality. Really look at what you have said here. You are talking about the possibility of him going off and looking for someone else. How did you go from "I am getting a job" to him running off and finding someone else? I have done the same thing and have to work really hard to catch myself from making stuff up in my head.

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My point was that the conflict about what kind of RV to buy didn't start out rational and friendly... .it took a while for one of us to realize what was going on and bring both of our fears out on the table... .and my wife has always been higher functioning than most of the pwBPD that drive people to these boards.

In your case... .you have to be the one taking the emotional lead--that means validating your husband when he's triggered and trying to gently invite him to share what he is afraid of. Abandonment is almost a sure bet, but exactly what aspects of your time away are most scary to him is going to require courage and vulnerability to get out... .and the more you can display, the less he needs to have.

Of course, you can't give him the capacity to do this--all you can do is meet him in the 'middle' by moving the middle 90% of the way over to him! Yes, that is hard work for you.

However... .at the core--you want some freedom and independence--so you can be healthy in your marriage. Since you don't actually want to leave him, you aren't in a zero-sum fundamental conflict with him. Which means that compromises for the summer that include you staying married are possible.

Yes, he is at risk of getting badly triggered and at least thinking of doing something drastic and damaging. You gotta live with the possibility.


A truly healthy r/s requires both of you to grow a lot. Here's the RA position I'd suggest:

YOU have the ability to grow as much as you choose to. You can reach a point where you are no longer enmeshed/codependent with him at all. Lot of work, but you are in control of whether this happens or not.

RA = He is in charge of his growth. He may never do it. He may do it 100X slower than you do.

Your best case growth plus his worst case growth... .you aren't triggered or enmeshed. You understand that he doesn't have the emotional capacity to support you or validate you, at least 97% of the time, and stop asking for it. You have firm boundaries that don't allow him to abuse you or control you. It would be a very uneven relationship, with you as an emotional caregiver (not caretaker!). You would be more like a parent or a therapist to him than a wife or a partner.

While that is *possible*, I don't think it is very likely. What usually happens is that as you grow, you stop participating in his 'games', and he doesn't get the payoff from you... .his (unhealthy) coping method stops working, and he has to do something else. This often involves an extinction burst of sorts... .and most likely he's going to either grow and find healthier ways of coping with difficult emotions... .or possibly say f*** it and blow up your marriage, blaming you.

In fact, as you grow and learn... .you will probably experience several rounds of this kind of thing. Various events/changes can trigger phases of it. For me... .I've been through one phase where I stopped accepting abuse... .and it took a couple years, but my wife started growing then herself... .and eventually stopped being abusive. Then there was the cheating incident last fall. The pain I went though triggered some serious growth in me that time. I upped the ante in how I was behaving with my wife again. This time she chose to leave rather than choosing to work on herself and stay. (Not sure how much work she's really doing on herself now. I'm not longer close enough to see it... .nor is it my business anymore, sadly.)

Those where two huge growth phases. My wife tells me she did one before she met me as well, spurred by moving away from living with her FOO and needing healthier ways of dealing with other people.

I wish I could tell you that everything will be sunny and perfect as you grow. My circumstances don't quite match that. What I can say is that even though I've lost my marriage, I wouldn't trade the growth I've gone through in the last six months for anything, including having back my marriage, or even the marriage I *thought* I had. I think it is the hardest thing I've ever done, to be honest. Now I'm finally turning a corner where I believe that I'm going to choose and make much better things happen in my life, and I'm really looking forward to it! I can taste the fruits of my efforts already!

I haven't gotten the guts to bring up the room again, but I'm getting excited about starting the job and it's impossible to not have him see this.  He has accepted that I am taking the job, I think, as much as is possible for him, but the room rental is a separate hurtle all together. 

I can do the job and still live here at home, (it means bigger gas expenses and more commute time, but it is possible).  The cost to drive from here to the motel everyday is almost identical to the cost of the room.  If gas prices go up again, like they do every summer, the cost of the room will be a little less than the cost of gas.  We would save wear and tear on the vehicle, too.

One of our vehicles has been laid up for a long time.  I know the reality of our situation has hit home to him because he has been working obsessively to get that laid-up vehicle fixed so we have both have a set of wheels... .i.e. removing the 'necessity' for taking in the room. 

And he has become Mr Perfect, or at least as close to it as possible.  It's like he has switched over from taking me for granted to wanting to prove I have no reason to leave.  Last night, he claimed we didn't fight once during the first five years of our marriage.  This statement is not true, but like I do, I just blurted out, 'then we spend the next five years fighting non-stop'.  Another exaggeration, but what was interesting about the whole thing, was that through the course of the conversation it came obvious that his stance was that he "really honestly believes that our entire marriage has been actually pretty wonderful" (his exact words!)... .  He must have been in a different marriage than me, I guess.  

I got the sense that he is trying to paint the marriage white and line up all the ducks so that there is no practical reason for me to take the room.  I had 'beware of brainwashing' warning signs going off in my head.  I guess this is where facts are important, except he likes to twist facts to suit himself, obviously.

I'm really nervous about the 'I'm taking the room' conversation.  I'm leaning towards having the conversation be about the logistics of the summer, (scheduling, planning, etc) basing the conversation the fact that I am taking the room.  So instead of convincing him to support my actions, it would be about inviting him to participate in my summer activities, with me.  I don't know.   Something tells me we need to have a good, satisfying round of sex before this conversation happens.   *)  A deposit into the I-love-you bank, before this big hefty withdrawal.

Question: Is taking the room a all-summer option? Or is it a monthly or weekly option? Saying "I'm going to take the room for April and May. Lets see how this works out." is an option... .however... .I'm going to caution you to only do it if you are actually thinking of commuting for the second part of the summer. If you are really jazzed about having this kind of freedom all summer, and DON'T want to give it up... .saying you will 'consider' it later is not being kind--when your "consideration" is to stay away he'll just feel abandoned all over again, plus feeling like you lied to him when you said you would "consider" it.


Uhm... .I see FANTASTIC and HORRIBLE aspects to that last idea.

I know you had a huge problem with him wanting sex in ways that you found cold and unpleasant and were left feeling uncomfortable and used... .and were asking him for what you wanted, which he did once or twice, but was resistant or reluctant to continue. I haven't seen you mention this in any recent topics.

So the fantastic part would be if you were finding more joy in your sex life with him, and feeling happy about giving him things he wants... .and especially if he was feeling happier about giving you things you want. I'm sure that a good sex life would ultimately improve your husband's attitude in many ways. (I once heard a story... .a guy was seeing the doctor about general stuff, much of it stress related... .his wife decided to do something about it, and made it a point to make sure that he had sex every day. The guy was much healthier and happier six months later  :)

The terrible part would be if you were offering this to him as a way to manipulate him into being 'easier' on you when you want to live apart for the summer.

Back in the positive/constructive direction... .and perhaps I'm diving into too much personal information here... .so feel free to think about this without posting details here... .

How often are you having sex with him? If it is less than once a week... .I'm figuring you could come home on your weekend for two days and a night, and he could come stay by the water for his weekend, similarly... .lots of sex on two visits every week would probably far exceed what you are having now. (Again I'm making pessimistic guesses about the current status). Perhaps once a week would be far more than currently.

There would also be things you could do to help this out... .perhaps a bit of sexting ahead of your visit home to give him something to anticipate... .a great way to put both having cellphones to good use  :) *)

At this point, the room is mine whenever and however long I want it.  I keep calling it a room, btw, but it is a fully furnished single bedroom staff apartment.  Very comfortable, with a million dollar view.  


I am super excited about starting the job.  What I'm dealing with right now is the little voice in my brain telling me I'm being selfish for wanting this, and mean to him for doing it.  My h deals with jealously a lot... .as in being jealous of me for doing things he doesn't have the balls to do... .and I am already anticipating this reaction, "You're just doing this for yourself and you don't care about me."  

And I think he's suspicious of me right now.  When I got up this morning, my new phone had been gone through.  I don't have any lock on it or anything, and I've been pretty relaxed about letting him look at what he wants on it.  But I'm getting the impression he is nervous that I've got some beau lined up to run off with this summer.  I have nothing to hide, so I'm thinking being open is the best way to deal with his suspicions.


If you remember this, then you may remember that I took a stand and demanded that I get a back rub before we had sex.  Well, he was his stubborn usual self, and we didn't have sex for a LONG time, like about six weeks or more.  He refused.  I didn't relax my boundary.  'You want sex, give me a back rub.'  I had been the only one giving in this regard, and it was time to make him realized that I need what I need too.  When he finally gave in, and gave me the back rub, we had great sex and he said that from now on, every time we have sex, he'd be willing to do this first.  

Well, I haven't really gotten one every time we've had sex since, but he is much more conscientious about being giving with sex than he has ever been before.  As for his 'favourite thing', he also now understands that I can only give it when I feel I can.  He has stopped asking/demanding/expecting it as a give-in.  He now sees it as a 'bonus round' let's say, a treat that is given when I am able.  

I think the change has come about because he now recognizes that I am in control of my body and what I do with it, and he has no say.  My body, my choices.  Take it or leave it.  It's worked for me.  The sex is much better (still not fabulous, his hang ups will always be there, but much more satisfying than in the past).



I see how you would worry about this, not knowing the positive results of my boundary setting around the no more cold sex.  But it does bring up a good point... .if a man does the dishes and cleans the kitchen because he's hoping to have sex with his wife that evening, is he being manipulating?  What about the guy taking a girl out on a date, spending lots of money on dinner and a movie, maybe presents her with a nice gift... .is he manipulating her for sex?  You know he's going to be disappointed if it doesn't happen after such an 'investment' right?  Anyway, just food for thought.  Oh, here's another one.  Is using positive feedback reinforcements for constructive behaviours manipulation?    I guess I don't like that word   .  

Either way, this isn't about manipulating him, but more about reassuring him (and me, really).  Letting him know, I love him and I want 'us' to be a healthy part of my life.  And I'm not 'running away' because he's got issues around sex.  

And anyway, we did have a good round at it the other day, and after, he just laid there and pleaded with me with his eyes not to leave.  He didn't say anything, but I could feel it right down to my toes.  He is really afraid of me taking my own space.

I'm having a hard time with all this, right now.  I don't want to be selfish.  I don't want to put him through undue pain.  Because he is on his best behaviour right now, he is attempting to set the stage to say, 'there's no reason to leave, we are great together, and you are just being a b___ for doing this.' ... .wait a minute... .isn't this him manipulating me?


Funny you should mention that, son and I were teaching him to text last night.  He drew pics with the different symbols... .started with a simple smiley face, then a zombie cat, then a lady's body.  Son commented that he was learning quick, he responded with, "I've got an ulterior motive."  Then he bounced his eyebrows up and down when he looked at me... .you men, ya'all think alike!    It would certainly be a new experience, for both of us.   |iiii

First off... .your husband is mentally disordered, and has very poor emotional regulation / emotional intelligence. (Yes, that is an understatement). So as a consequence, if he tells you something like "You are being selfish", be VERY skeptical about what he says. Don't challenge him verbally--that is invalidating, and you know that.

But don't believe him either--ask yourself if it is completely true, completely false, or someplace inbetween.

In addition... .I italicized two statements you expect to hear from your husband. Both of those are statements about what you are thinking or feeling, or what your motivations are. He's not a mind reader. If those thoughts exist in your head and are motivating you, they are YOUR thoughts, not HIS thoughts. My recommendation is to NEVER believe anything like this from him. [Aside: this kind of thing from my wife was triggering and pissed me off royally. I implemented firm boundaries that I would not participate in conversations where I was told what I was thinking or feeling.]

May I ask... .were you criticized for being selfish a lot as a kid? Especially in cases where the person accusing you was trying to control you, which is what this sounds like to me.


I'm going to disagree with you about this... .with the caveat that choosing your battles is a good idea, and that giving in on this one, and standing firm on the place to stay this summer sounds good to me... .but here's my take:

He's suspicious mostly because of his own self-doubt and self-hatred. He probably doesn't believe at his core that he is lovable, or that anybody would want to be with him. This leads him to 'natural conclusions' ... .If you say you love him,  you are lying ('cuz he's not lovable)... .You only stick around 'cuz you aren't strong enough to get away, or haven't met other guys to cheat on him with... .You would jump at the chance to get away, and he's got to stop you / manipulate you / control you to keep you. etc. etc. etc. Most likely he isn't even aware of this stuff going on (!)

Anyhow... .given that... .being open won't fill that void inside him, so it won't protect you from his dysregulation or jealousy.

To make things worse... .from his world-view, where those things I mentioned are unquestioned facts, he could easily find something on your phone... .and twist it to match... .and use it as a trigger to blow up at you.

Related impertinent question: I've seen you sign off several topics with "Gotta go" where it sounded like you had things to type you hadn't got 'round to yet. Here is the conclusion I've jumped to... .Do you find yourself having trouble getting some time with enough privacy to post here? Are you afraid of him seeing you spending time on a computer typing something that is private and not his business and getting caught doing it, and facing a dysregulation / rage over it?


|iiii Having boundaries like that is fantastic.

The part I like the best is that once you realized that you had boundaries and could protect yourself... .you found space to be a lot more giving and generous than you had been. I'm very glad to hear that things are going better.


I have no doubt he is trying to manipulate you. I strongly recommend you enforce boundaries and refuse to allow this to work. That doesn't justify you trying to manipulate him. There is too much truth in this joke... .


As for whether you are being manipulative or not... .YOU KNOW. Trust yourself and believe in yourself. (FYI, one technique he might use to manipulate you is accusing you of manipulating him. Don't take such things from him at face value  )

I cautioned you about it originally because your motivation wasn't clear from a sentence or two in your prior post. You could take the same action for a variety of reasons... .and while the action would be the same, I would call it healthy in some cases and unhealthy in others... .if that makes any sense to you.


Have fun with this one--Google how to sext / flirt over text with a guy... .when you have quiet time in your apartment by the water some evening. Plot and scheme what you can do which will excite and turn him on at that distance... .make the best of it!

You could even be subversive about it... .let on how excited and happy you would be if he did some other things for you... .in as positive way as you can. (The backrubs sound great... .perhaps you can come up with a way to increase the range of offerings that make you feel loved and aroused he has to choose from.)

This kind of stuff I'm suggesting here... .there is a very subtle line between being manipulative... .and presenting choices or options for him in a way that he can be receptive to them. Trust yourself to find that line and stay on the right side of it. If you notice you had a misstep and half your left foot came down on the wrong side of the line, learn from it, and do better next time.

Good observation.  We've had discussions about this, but no boundaries were set.  I am prepared to take this stand if need be.  Thanks for the reminder to be alert for this.


I have a hard time remembering way back as a kid, and evaluating what went on.  T said my childhood trauma is the cause of it.  I do remember being called a selfish brat at times, and feeling really guilty for it.  My mom is a big old giver.  She is always giving stuff to people (both things and her time) all the time, and thinks of herself only when necessary.  She almost died one Christmas eve on our living room sofa, about a dozen years ago or so.  We were all stuffing our faces with all sorts of yummy treats over the holidays, and it put her into a diabetic coma.  We had known for almost a year at that point that she was diabetic, but she had done NOTHING to deal with it.  After this incident, she realized she had no choice but to do something about it.


I actually brought this up, because I have no real idea how to deal with this.  You are right, being open wont fill that void, but what would?  Nothing really, right?  So how do I deal with it?  Acceptance? 


That's what is happening when I do this, sort of.  There is no privacy here, and the only time I get to be on this site is when he is otherwise preoccupied.  He knows about this site, but doesn't know who I am on it and what I say.  I've been pretty protective of that info, and it's more about my own protection than having to face his dysreg that I run away and cut my posts short.  I've already explained that this is my support group, and I have a right to be here.  He has seen positive results from me participating in the site, so on some level, he is on side.

You don't have to announce any boundaries... .all you need to do is not engage on such things. (And that can be hard enough)


As I was hinting earlier... .choose your battles. Getting some space and time apart this summer is going to be a big one, so if you put other ones off for later, I see the wisdom in that.

However... .my suggestion... .is that you have a right to some privacy. (And so does he!) Your own phone. Your own computer. Neither of which he has any right to have access to. You also have a responsibility not to do secret things that would harm your husband.

Over the years I was together with my wife, we went from one email address to two email addresses, one phone to two phones, one computer to two computers. Each time we did it, it was somewhat of a struggle, and my wife was scared and resistant to the change. And each time, after we settled into it, we were both more comfortable after.

The tricky part is that there are many things you could do which might trigger him... .but aren't actually harming him. The chances of him having the insight to figure this out are pretty slim. And that makes it complicated.

The phone thing really has me thinking for you... .

You said your phone isn't locked.

You said you believe your husband was snooping through it.

I'm assuming you haven't discussed any of this with him yet.

I see two approaches for you.

1. Figure out phone security settings and lock the phone.

You can pretend you don't know he was looking, and he has the option to pretend he wasn't looking too. (Even 'tho he's gonna be surprised next time he tries and can't get in!)

... .and if he brings something up, he opened the can of worms--Ask him directly what he needs to do with your phone. (Then shut up and watch him squirm)

Note 1: I think this one is best done right now, as the phone is new... .and as you haven't left for the summer yet.

Note 2: I'm assuming that you don't think you have the right to snoop on his phone and see who he's been talking to and texting with, etc.

Note 3: This doesn't mean you should be evasive about it. There isn't anything really wrong with asking something like "Have you talked to your mom recently?" or (upon seeing you fiddling with your phone) "Who are you texting with?" ... .and being able to satisfy curiosity, while you maintain control over the situation is very different than a license to snoop at any and all times, especially when you aren't aware.

2. Start a conversation with him about privacy.

And that will be an interesting one... .If you just lock your phone, you may end up in this conversation anyway!

Yeah, choosing my battles.  I'm not in a place where I'm ready to do any of that other stuff.

My husband has gone from trying really hard to prove he's perfect to proving he isn't perfect to hating me in the run of two days.  Not sure which was is forward anymore.