BPDFamily.com

OK... .below is a link to some other stuff that is going on.  My guess is that this is related. 

I have clearly told her... .several times... .that I have no expectation of her to come home and do all the work.  So... .my guess is that she is mind reading and making assumptions when she says this.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=277437.0;all




formflier,   I have asked you on many occasions while you are at home to keep the house clean and help with dinner,clean our bathroom etc and you just continue on and ignore my request.   Please explain this behavior. When you were working and I was home, I did not expect you to come home from work and clean the house, make dinner, take care of the kids, while I painted a hallway or worked on some other project. Its not ok for you to deem yourself a pass from taking care of these things and instead work on vehicles... .Working on vehicles needs to be done but not at the expense of everything else.

It is wrong to do what you prefer and leave all the rest for me. That is selfish. I understand you could happily live in a filthy home, but the rest of us shouldn't have to because some excuse it by saying its just 'lived in'.  Can you just continue on and "win" by refusing to clean until I do it, to keep the kids from living in filth? Absolutely... .but that's not the actions of a man... .not one I could love anyway. I am proud of you for trying hard to find a new job, but  Life is not about you getting what you want at the expense of others. You knew if  I did not go with you to pick up the rental car I would not able to drive it and you said nothing when I volunteered to stay and wait for the tow truck instead of going with you to pick up the rental car. When I asked for the keys to go somewhere you laughed and said I couldnt drive it because my name is not on it. Why hardship for me makes you smile I do not understand. I thought when you were without your family it might have changed you. (formflier wife)


So... .I figured I would email something simple back... .to encourage a conversation.

Below is my reply.

"

Let's find time to have a conversation about this.

I love you!

"

This morning we woke up.  Had really nice cuddle in bed (I had no idea about email then).  Prayed... .and I got up to get kids going.  She is off teaching.  Really nice hug and kiss when she left the house.  I had sent my reply then... .but didn't mention the email.

There is nothing about this email exchange or method of communication that has been agreed on in counseling.  In fact... .we have both agreed in counseling that this type of thing... .with all of the "suggestions" about my motives... .wanting to "win"... .etc etc.  is unhelpful to our r/s.

We agreed if we were having a hard time talking to the other person that we could write out a question... .go hand it to the person... .and now the other person was in charge of thinking about the question... .getting themselves calm and collected... .and going to provide an answer.  This might take a day... .whatever... .but I've used that method a couple times with success. 

I don't think she has tried it

I'm open to suggestions.  My plan is to take a walk with her and go some where to sit and talk for a while this evening... .I'll bring it up then.  Again... .I'm open to suggestions... .

FF

Oh man, I have not followed all of your situation, so I know I'm speaking from not knowing so much... .

However, I did see a post you had a bit ago about the chores. 

Forgive me if I am so naive to put a practical/logical approach to this but... .

Can you just make a chore chart?

List all household responsibilities?  Include tasks such as pay bills online, buy groceries, drive kid to sport etc.  That way if you need to work on the car all day... .you can reassign a chore?

I KNOW this is not about chores, this is likely about what she is feeling and clearly projecting stuff, and trying to blame you for something.

What would happen if there was clarity in expectations and written out?

Would that just be another fight of... ."Oh, you think it is fair that I do all the dirty jobs, you got the easy ones?"

FF, I see this as a Mars and Venus thing- and the role reversal with her being at work and you at home. I know that I am getting into gender roles, but there are a lot of things that I would think of being at home that my H would not, and would not notice. The car thing is an oversight, but my H can also leave me out of car related stuff as he doesn't think about it.

When one of our kids was born, my H took some time off and his parents came too. H and his dad spent the whole time doing "man" things ( hey we need new tools to fix the shed) while I was all about diapers, feeding. If I said anything about him not helping his reply was " the shed is broken and needed fixing" while I was thinking "please just change a diaper".

I like the idea of sitting down and doing a chore chart. This is about feelings. Listen to her as much as you can, even if you disagree. The actual chores can be decided on the chart, but she wants to be heard first.

I see a couple of things at play.

First, it seems like there isn't an agreement on what constitutes "filth". Different people have different standards. Even if there is a chore chart, that isn't likely to address the underlying disagreement about what constitutes "filth" or "dirty". From all of the posts of FF's that I have read, it seems like there might be a possibility that FF could do everything on his chore chart and still not live up to her expectations.

Also, it sounds like FF is being blamed for allowing his family to live in filth. That is a huge thing to dump on one person. He is ONE person among 8 or 9. What about contributions from the kids?

Also, what kind of car repairs is she talking about? Are you talking about routine maintenance? Are you talking about necessary repairs? Or are you talking about tinkering with the car just because you can? Does she understand how important it is to care for and maintain vehicles properly? I find that a lot of women and non-car guys lack an understanding of how important it is to take care of vehicles BEFORE they break so that nobody is left stranded on the side of the road. If the house isn't cleaned according to her schedule, there is no potential for somebody to be stranded on the side of the road. Not sure if this applies to the situation. It is something to think about as it might be able to give ideas on how to approach the whole thing about him working on cars instead of cleaning house.

One reason I am thinking she sends you emails is that she isn't able to speak to you face to face. Maybe she gets too emotional doing it, or maybe she doesn't think you hear her clearly.

If I were to have asked my H to do something domestic, his response would be to argue his case that who else would fix the shed and how important that was. I agree, I'd have let it go. However, I would not have felt that at least as if he heard me out if he argued his point without at least listening to me. I might have resorted to e mail had it existed at the time.

All marriages can have these issues- BPD or not. What feels like a role reversal to her may feel uncomfortable. I know this is the best situation for you. Some marriages have an agreement about this and it works. For your wife though, there may be some discomfort over this, even if it is the best solution for you at the moment.

 

Great replies... .great questions... .I'll do my best to answer all.  Important... .because I want to chat with her... .assuming she is in ok mood... .this evening.

Chore chart.  Her idea... .she created it.  It exists.  "Enforcement" is haphazard.  She has clearly said that the parent that catches a kid not following the chores... .is responsible to "punish" the child... .enforce. 

OK... .so... .I catch kids... .enforce.  She undoes it... .and they sit and watch TV.  No chores happen.  Sometimes I can bring it up... .and get chores done "Honey... .I've grounded s12... .he is not supposed to be watching TV" .  Most of the time this brings a big sigh.  What follows is either "You should have done something earlier... ." or "s12 go do chores "for daddy""

Alternatively... .when she is in different mood... .she catches people not doing chores... .stomps around the house... .snorts... .cusses... .nobody loves her... .it's kids fault she is yelling... .etc etc.

There are hints of middle ground... .but usually it falls on the two extremes.  Thankfully... .lately... .there have been more sit on the couch lazy times... .no yelling... .than the other.  I take that is progress.

So... .yes there is a chore chart.  I am normally alone in trying to enforce it.  For instance  D18 didn't do chores last night.  I got her up early to do it.  She has stayed in her room working on essay.  No chores done.  She has been up two hours.  Before I left I mentioned again to her that the family needs her to do her part around here.  She said "OK".

If this goes on much past noon... .I'll sit her down for "heart to heart".  This is the daughter that wife and she have set up college deal... .and kept me out of. 

So... .several issues here... .likelihood of wife and I agreeing and holding to "long term" consequences... .we've tried... .she breaks.  Kids know this... .and exploit it.  They are not bad kids.  They strike me as typical teens that will jump under any bar that is set for them... .that's what teens do.

My argument is that we should set the bar higher... .knowing we won't get it... .but that we will get more from them... .than if we set bar lower.  Wife will avoid answering this one (has many times in past)... .and say she doesn't have time to adjust the chore chart... .she has "too much work to do".  "When will you be able to adjust it?"... .I have asked... ."I have no idea... ." is a normal answer.  I take that as "bait" for an argument... .which I avoid and go about whatever I was going to do.

History that bugs my wife... .or has in the past.  I excel at "running" large complex organizations... .process improvement... .etc etc.  It's been a few years... .but last time I was heavily involved... .at her request... .in farm chores (when we lived on farm).  I improved the processes... .got them done sooner... .so we had more time to eat breakfast as a family... .   She enjoyed it for a couple weeks... .then flipped out... .

I could do the same now and fix all this.  But... .if she is not onboard... .I'm not going to put my family through that conflict. 

Not onboard looks like me putting kids on a project... .I leave to manage other kids doing other projects.  She comes in room... .pulls them off what they are doing... .tells them I had them doing it because of some hatred of her... .some love of someone else (usually my mom)... .or other weirdness.

I'm going to cut this reply now... .and try to make sure I've answered other questions.

I have no intention of getting into all the BPD behaviors in tonights talk.  Just request that we talk in person about this... .and that I need help understanding some of the things she said in the email... .they are unclear to me.

FF

It's been a while since she has agreed to write out expectations.  I've completed everything and she will find some reason that they "don't count"... .or "i still don't love her"

Before I learned about BPD family... .I would go for "written agreements".    FF will do this... .ff wife will be happy with ff that he did this. 

Bleeehhh... .that didn't work well... .we had some big arguments over that.

Then... .even after I was here... .we did written agreements for  FF will do this... .ff wife will do this.  If I went first... .she would have excuses why her stuff wasn't done... .or I didn't get family time.

So... .I then went to policy of agreeing to things if I got "mine first"... .

Yeah... .you guys see where this is going... .

We haven't done a written agreement in ... .gosh... .6 months or more... .probably more.

I was a fan of inviting unbiased outside scrutiny... .counselors... .others... .anyone... .to verify "status" of agreements.  After a couple times of being "called out" for noncompliance... .that was over.

FF

Lol, honestly, the reason I posted is because I greatly related to his w in this thread, I am hoping my perspective... .while of course mine/not hers... .is helpful.

I HAVE sat up at night writing the exBF long emails.  (We did not have any therapy agreement otherwise on how to handle an issue). The reason is... .he was asleep, I wanted to connect.  I felt "ignored"throughout the day with him not participating in things I expected of him, (he had a tendency to withdraw) then here I was feeling alone again, going to bed... .and restless for feeling I needed to get this off my chest.  After I got it off my chest, I'd feel more at peace. (My emails were not sprinkled with insults or accusations... .as far as I can tell)

Had I received some more acknowledgement for my efforts... .it would have went a long way... .  Such as a reconnection and appreciation of sorts at the end of the day like: "Hey dear, thanks for holding down the fort all on your own while I was working on the car, you're awesome!"  (But again... .she likely would have a stronger emotional "need" than this)

Also what I related to (if we are "allowed" to relate to the SO here) is the feeling of always being in charge of everything.  I think much of this feeling is a bit as NotWendy says and a Mars/Venus issue.  I would have been frustrated if my SO typically contributed to chores on the weekend, had a certain role... .but then just "dropped" it all to go work on the car.  While I understand and appreciate that the car is important, also the chores and other expectations are.  While I prefer he have announced to me, "Hey, the car really needs such and such done, I realize this means a bit extra help around the house by you.  Do we have options of when me working on the car works for you?" Bottom line: when my SO makes a unilateral decision that affects me and the family... .I want to feel included or considered in some way... .not like he just goes off and does his thing solo with no affect.  (Maybe this is not what happened... .but just where my thoughts are.)

I realize that I cannot speak for anyone.  I also realize that he is living in a way different BPD dynamic than I, or others... .   However, I wonder if starting with what originally would be reasonable... .to help understand her reasonable expectation hiding underneath the BPD over emotional expression of it is ever helpful?  (Idk... .I'm just testing all this communication stuff out myself)


(2 new post since... .but I'll post anyway)

Agreed... . And her standards are all over the place.  So... .today's agreement... .WILL NOT... .be agreed to tomorrow... .


Yep... .been there done that... .proved I did it... ."poor FF... .you did all this work but since you think xyz about me... ."  (that has been long time ago... .but she has acknowledged all done... .and found a way to blame me)


See other post about chore chart... .



I'm saying necessary.  She... .at some points... .has agreed... .even asked for certain things to be done.  So... .lately... .it's about brakes.  Because I was trying to help out around the house... .brake jobs got put off.  Pad material wore off... .and brake rotors got chewed up and had to be replaced... .vice "turned" or "refinished".  

$15 to turn a rotor... .$64 to replace.

Luckily we have older... .paid for cars and trucks.  :)18s truck has an intermittent ABS light.  I have goal to get it fixed in a month... .or... .take it to shop and pay big bucks (possibly).  

I'm doing research on how to diagnoses and chase this down.  Parts are expensive enough that I don't want to "toss" a sensor at it.

Right front ABS sensor is the code that is being set... .sometimes.  The sensor is about $200.  The light starting coming on after I put new rotors on it... .because the others got ground to pieces.  See above... .

My gut says it is the new rotor... .and not the sensor.  


Yes and sometimes she comes and helps me.  Holds light... .does light wrench turning.  She doesn't enjoy it... .but we spend time together.  This has been a while.  I usually take a kid with me to teach them and spend time.

I have offered for her to come with me to work on vehicles... .she has declined lately.  


Working on cars is a less periodic thing than cleaning house.  In my world... .you didn't forget to eat this morning... .but you forgot to put dishes in dishwasher?  Cleaning is part of life... .if all pitched in... .it would go quickly.

If it gets left to one person... .or a few... .now it's a big job.

FF

I plan to ask her... .gently... .about this.  I have in the past and get various answers.  My belief is that for many... .many months now... .I have had "proper" responses... .or asked "clarifying" questions in the correct way.




My response is usually to clarify her priorities.  Because usually... .my view is that what she is asking for is not going to get done... .so I want to do most important (to her) first... .

I rarely get usable input on priorities.


OK... .so... .my "remembrance"... .is that I was expected to come home and help with chores.  I was regularly asked to do them... .and regularly did them.

Yes there were times I bowed out... .but that was usually do to an big deadline.

Many times though... .I would ask her to read a grant I was writing... .and go do what she was working on... .she would hand me the paper all marked up (think long narratives)... .and it was very helpful to me.

FF

It was very helpful... .thanks.

I am basically looking for an "emotionally healthy" response to this.  Something that puts the ball back in her court.

I'm positive that I can discuss this with her... .and not be triggered... .or walk away if she starts blaming or doing BPD traits.

I'm feeling top of my game... .so to speak... .today.

I also want to figure out some "precedent" to set... .

I do not want to set a precedent that says... .send FF written tasking and it gets done.    NO! 

If she would ask in writing... .maybe... .

Having a talk... .where she can ask how I am feeling... .I can ask how she is feeling... .that is the precedent I would like to set... .and I'm going for... .

FF

Do you think it is possible for her to listen to your feelings first, while she is still sitting on her own? 

Are you open to hearing hers first?

(Likely the talk will never get back to you tho huh?)

This reminds me of my r/s with my wife.  When we first got together, my wife told me that her and the kids would be responsible for cleaning because she works out of the home, the kids should start being responsible (she always enabled them to do nothing and therefore they always give her crap when it was time to do chores, but that's a different story), and I have a 1 hour drive one-way to work (2 hours a day total).  Anyway, she told me that helping her fold clothes, or helping her do dishes would be sufficient and that she always wanted me to have a good home cooked meal when I got home.  Even though she offered, I told her that I didn't mind doing more.  So after a year or so, she would nag me about doing more around the house.  I reminded her of what she said, and well, of course that was never said or what she meant (how convenient  ).  I made the suggestion of having a "cleaning day" every saturday morning early (between 9-10AM) and maintaining throughout the week.  She agreed.  That lasted about two weeks.  The kids learned if you give her crap, she will give in.  It got to where the kids would sleep in and she wouldn't wake them up and her excuse was, "... .they work hard at school and have extra curricular activities.  Their only job should be their schoolwork."     So the housework fell to the two of us.  She would then dysregulate because "she did everything and I did nothing", yet the truth was, her children did nothing.  God forbid I bring up that truth.  Then a few weeks later, she said, "You need to help cook 3-4 meals a week because I have a lot of work to do and need to work late." and gave me a list of chores up and above that that I needed to complete including doing the dishes on the nights I cook."  I asked what the kids would be responsible for because they do nothing and it's not fair for us to work all day and be responsible for everything at home.  She then again reiterated that it was not fair for them to have more on their plate then just school.  My response was, "This is coming from a woman who worked since she was thriteen and carried straight A's and went to college and had jobs to work her way through.  I had a job through high school, kept up my schoolwork, extra curricular activities and was required to cook a meal twice a week because my mom was a working single mother."  Her response was, "They don't need the same life that we had.  It's our job to do better."  I said, "It's our job to teach them how to be responsible adults and work for what they have."  :)idn't matter and nothing changed.  She then saw a "personal growth coach" who said, "Can you explain to me why you and your husband do it all and your kids do nothing?"  She then gave them a chore chart that lasted about three days until they complained and she said, "It's not worth it to fight with them."   She stopped going to the personal growth coach.  :)idn't want to be accountable.    UGHHHHHHH.    :) lol  Typing this irritates me.   :)  

This may not work for you... .but I just remembered something that worked for us!... .

(My ex is uN/BPD... .more traits tho than full blown anything)

We had a bit of a habit of bedtime massage time for a while.  Always me being the giver, but I never minded this too much.  I just liked to reconnect at night before bed, especially after a busy day of kid stuff or other life distractions.  I could always convince him with an invitation of a "10 min massage".  It was my sneaky way of getting him to come to bed on time... .not be cranky the next day... .helped him (and me) to relax and undid many of his negative (and mine) feelings he accumulated.  It is proven to help with oxytocin release too, which helps bond couples!

During this time I would ask him about his day... .it turned into a soothing tone, dreamy, free association kind of talk.  Often he felt guilty for getting the massage... .(More the NPD of him than the BPD tho)... .So he would let me get some things off my chest.  (I was careful about not going off on any heated tension topic... .but gentle things I wanted a partner to hear).  He had an easier time listening to me this way... .as my touch served to "prove" my loving intentions... .and my voice and tone would remain soothing throughout it... .as I could feel if I got tense... .as it would come out in my touch... .my hands... .and he'd respond... .so I'd then adjust till I felt his body give in again... .it was a good way for me to feel and help his physiological response to my message. 

We didn't always use massage time to talk about tricky topics.  I would never want him to associate stress with touch.  However, the times we did talk, and I did get to express some frustrations, and I was massaging him... .were often the most satisfying to me... .and feeling more heard than usual. 

Does this make sense?

 

Maroon,

we have very similar thoughts on running a house and raising kids... .

I'm not the biggest sports guy... .I've coached a couple of kids teams... .not my regular thing.  I suspect we are similar on that as well.  If you are going to participate... .give it your all... .then the coach will push for a bit more... .that is where growth happens.

FF

And it also sounds like she holds you to a different standard than she holds for herself. From the stuff that you have shared, it seems like she is trying to set you up for failure. If you are working with her and doing what she asks, then she has no reason to be upset with you.


What about cleaning the sensor? If the rotor got chewed up, is it possible that metal flakes got on the sensor and that is why it is throwing throwing the code sometimes?


How often do you work on the cars? It sounds like a situation where you working on the cars equals "You work on the cars all the time to the detriment of everything else." It doesn't matter that you went for weeks or months without working on a car.

I also wanted to comment on this from the original post:


Do you have those expectations of her? Or are they expectations that she has placed on herself? I know this argument as I have gotten into this line of thinking. When I get home from work some nights, the kids clamor at me and want this and that. Some nights, I get home from work and the kids are hungry and the house is a mess and I feel like your wife has described it in her email.

1. My husband can try to feed the kids. They tell him that they aren't hungry and don't want anything. When I get home, the story changes. If I hadn't taken the time to talk to everyone, then it would be easy to assume that my husband is being lazy. Yes, there are a lot of times when he is. I have gotten to a point where on nights when I work I tell him to stop and get pizza for him and the kids to eat.

2. My kids don't really listen to dad for some reason. Part of it is lack of respect for him. I am continually reminding them that dad is their parent too. If wife isn't pushing for the kids to respect dad, then that is an issue to possibly be addressed. Also, if wife has been a stay at home mom for all of those years, she probably has a different kind of bond with the kids that makes some things easier for her.

3. Even if you did every single chore on her list, it is quite likely that she won't notice it or acknowledge it. I am basing this on my experiences living with so many kids. I can sweep the floor and ten minutes later it looks like I did nothing. All it takes is one dog or cat to walk across the floor. I know that I will clean and by the end of the day, I look at the house and think, "What is the friggin' point?" I busted my butt all day long and by the end of the day it looks like I didn't do a darn thing. That is what happens when you have a large family. I am wondering if you can tap into her feelings a bit. I know that every mother that I know (working or stay at home) has this same complaint/lament. And, some of it goes back to gender roles/expectations. Whether a mom works or not, she is typically the one that is held responsible for a dirty house. As such, a lot of women take the condition of the house very personally.

 

Massage:

I do this alot... .however... .I don't bring up "issues".  Massage usually leads to sex.  We have a very active sex life... .that... .luckily... .has pretty much escaped the BPD trait drama.

And... .wife is cycling fairly quickly now... .so... .I can usually wait something out... .offer massage... .and off we go.

Yes ladies... .I do give massages where there is no sex... .sometimes... .rarely... .   ... .

well... .sometimes I don't intend it to go that way... .and... . 

FF

 


Yeah... .so far all I've done is cleared the codes a few times to try and watch the pattern of when it comes back.  Random.

I can start and drive 2-3 times... .maybe more... .before it comes back.  I took wheel off and looked at sensor... .no issues.

Next step... .in a few days... .take wheel off and take of sensor... .liberal application of electronic parts cleaner spray... .put it back... .cross fingers.

I'm also looking online. 

If everytime I cleared it... .it came right back... .I would be more comfortable that it was "just" the sensor.

FF

 

So... .big update

She comes homes from half day of teaching.  I'm outside running pressure washer.  I have done some work inside and some outside... .her list is not "done"... .but progress made (IMO)

Real reason I'm running pressure washer is to clean off some greasy parts... .and there are some tires that I have been needing to sell on c-list... .so I wash washing them off too... .(so they would look nice for c-list pics)

I go out and great her... .looking ridiculous with water and stuff all over me... .and my safety googles on.  Nice kiss home... .all is well.

We chat some.  She says she is going to take s19 in to get pants and shirts (good to spend time with him).  I say great... .will be awesome time... .can you each drive a car? and take them by tire shop... .(rotations are past due).  She agrees... .all is well.

I finish outside and head in the house.  She is demanding password to get on a mortgage company website.  I told her what I thought it was... .she says already tried it and didn't work.  

I followed with "check your contact in google... .the password hint is in there."  She seems to get more upset and says  "I just want you to tell me the password... .they didn't get paid "last month "

I asked her is she checked out checking account... .because they had been paid last month... .I was sure of it.  Instead of responding to my query about checking account... .she waves the mortgage paper in front of me... .(this is typical behavior... .when I get a direct response to a question... .a usable response... .I fall over in shock... .it rarely happens)

I said if you would like I can work on getting you in the website... .no verbal response... .she hands me the laptop.

So... .I take out my phone... .I'm trying to get to my password hint and... .she starts the inquisition.

her:  "So... .are your tires good and clean?"  Me:  "I hope so... .I'll checkem when they dry... ."

her:  "So... .you wanna tell me why you are cleaning tires instead of doing what I asked (I didn't bite on the "ask" you to do... .?"

me:  "I'd love to talk about that in just a minute... .I'm a bit scatterbrained right now... .and can only juggle one thing at a time... .I'll get this password figured out quickly... ."

her:  "It looks to me like you haven't done anything I have asked... ."

I stood... .said ... ."I can only do one thing at a time... ."  and walked out of the room.

I went upstairs to different computer and kept working on access.  She had tried a couple... .I find the password and enter it... .and get locked out.  Because she was downstairs on website and clicked on "don't know password" or something.

I went back down... .and let her know of the lockout... .and I had to place a call to get it open... .and would let her know when it was done.

I did  this... .handled the payment issue.  Showed her confirmation numbers and started to go down road of "this month"... ."last month".  I let her know when had paid "last month" and that the issue was about this month... .

She started trying to explain that we are supposed to pay a month early.  I just said... ."oh"... .and dropped it.  She is not that stupid... .she was most likely trying to avoid admitting what she said was wrong.  Money is trigger issue... .math with money is trigger issue... .(sigh)

Anyway... .I asked if I could have a minute or two to figure out which two vehicles need to go in... .I would call quickly.  She looked at me but didn't respond.  

I went upstairs... .made the call... .figured it out... .and went downstairs. 5 minutes... .tops.

1 car is gone.  

I call her phone... .no answer.  I call sons phone... .he answers.  I ask where they are... .he says "on interstate"... .I ask to talk to mommy.

She asks what she can do for me... .I said it would be great if you could take van and s19 car in (she is in another vehicle).  

She starts going on about how I haven't done what she asked... .so I'm not going to help you.  I don't take bait.  

I let her know I would love to talk about it in person.  She keeps asking me for details of what I did... .etc etc.  I deflected and said I looked forward to talking in person... .and tried to validate that it was tough to not get requests fulfilled.

Finally:

I said... ."that's fine honey... .it's not the end of the world if it doesn't get done today.  It was a request... .I'm ok with hearing no."

In a loud voice... ."WELL... .my answer is NO!"  click

A touch of trigger was felt by me... .but I think I dealt with it ok.

She doesn't let it go.

She calls back... .I answer... ."I'm coming back to do as you have asked... .I don't want to be a "jackass" like some people have been around here lately (again... .didn't take bait... .I'm sure I was supposed to ask "who" or argue.

Wonderful... .I really appreciate it... .see you in a bit

She comes home and keeps s19 next to her.  "So... .you wanted to talk... ."  I say... ."we can either talk now or later... .whatever is better for you... .?"

her... ."Well"

pause... .

me... ."would you like to talk now or later... .?"

her... ."I've got time... ."  (again... .notice... .she will not directly answer... .very common)

me: "OK... .let's go in and chat."

her "I'll talk right here... ."  

me:  ok

her:  "It seems like you are ignoring my requests and doing whatever you want... .you haven't done anything I've asked... ."

me:  "That's tough to feel... .I can see your point of view and how you come to that conclusion... .there has been a lot going on... ."  (I let her know some unexpected stuff which she was aware of... .that I had done some of the work... .but was not declaring it done... .and would continue to do the best I could)

I explained the pressure washer thing... .and laid out the schedule of why that mattered... .

I assured her that I would do the best I could and that I would prefer that we talk about the schedule of the day rather than do written requests.  That way you can make your requests to me... .I can make requests to you... .you can share your issues... .I can share mine... .and then we will have joint goals to chase.

Not much response... .

She leans in for  a quick peck... .and she and s19 are on their way... .

FF

sorry so long... .this is my life... .  good news is only one time I felt triggered... .and calmed quickly... .

Why did you call her after you saw that one car was gone?

Her leaving like that was her way of telling you no. It was a crappy way to say NO but it seemed like a no nonetheless.

From where I am sitting, it seems like you didn't take her concerns into consideration. She has clearly said that her concern in the house. She comes home and you are asking her to do stuff with the car. Why couldn't you take the cars in to get the tires rotated?

It seems like the two of you have different priorities. She is focused on the house and is pushing you to participate in the house stuff the way she wants it done and it seems like you are focused on the car stuff and are pushing her to participate in it even when she has other things to do.

With the logistics involved in a family of 8 children, it would seem there is quite a bit to coordinate daily.  How quickly can this be done?  My thought is that a commitment to just 10 minutes of coordinating tasks, activities, driving, and expectations would go a long way each morning.  Then perhaps another 5-7 minutes in the evening to touch base on what got done, what didn't, what the evening looks like.

I see that... .but... .if I take car in... .guess what I'm not working on... .?  She had announced she wanted to go to town (20 to 25 minutes away) to shop... .two people were going... .so... .two cars can get done. 

We've done this... .lots of times before... .so no special trip needs to be made.  She had already agreed to do it.

I had not agreed to clean the house... .big... .BIG... .BIG... .difference in my book.  One that I'm obviously comfortable taking a stand on.  It's not the house... .it's the not asking... .the dictatorial style.

Clarification... .I had cleaned the house... .some stuff she didn't ask for... .some she did... .but... .maybe... .50% done... .maybe.

For instance... .she didn't ask me to blow off the porches and sidewalks (front and back)... .but I spent time doing that... .instead of cleaning inside... .because house will stay a bit cleaner... .a bit.

She doesn't do this... .and thinks it's silly.  I don't make her clean my way... .I won't let her make me clean her way.

I called her after car was gone to see what was up... .to remove assumptions.  I didn't want to assume the ran to the store and would be back in 5... .when they intended to be gone for hours.  Turns out my guess was correct... .that she cancelled her agreement and drove off... .but... .assumptions are bad... .at least in our r/s.

FF

We do this often... .but it depends on mood.  There is no standing agreement on this.  We've tried it in the past... .she seemed to feel controlled by it... .similar to other agreements... .she would continue while it suited her... .

I agree with this idea... .and I would rather run it this way... .might broach this again... .it's been a while.

FF

Would it be accurate to say that she treats you like a child? From all that you have said, it seems like the kids are given more options and more input than you. Would that be accurate? If it is, then maybe that is the underlying issue that could be addressed.

Yeah... .maybe... .it is not accurate to say she treats me like any of the other kids... .

And... .I don't detect there is a hint of he doesn't know how to do it... .so I better tell him. 

I think... .my guess... .she wants it done NOW... .she keeps repeating... ."I told you to do this and that... ."... .language switches today... .she is talking about "requests".

I seem to see her believing she is the boss of me... .or that I am at her beck and call... .robot... .whatever... .

Not sure... .

But... .yes... .kids get asked what they want to do (usually)... .I rarely get asked... .

So... .maybe she is treating me like a child... .but it is different than the way she treats HER children.

Hmmm

FF

Idk... .forgive me if I'm out of place... .

Do you think your wife is more enmeshed with you than any of the kids? 

If so... .

Could this be why they have options and you don't?

If she just sees you as an extension of herself... .it would be ridiculous for her to ask for your opinion on matters, no?

My first thought. . .Cinderella! Wicked step child maybe?  :)

Interesting theory... .

Could be... .

What would be impact of this... .?  How would I properly "react" to this... .?

Hmmm

FF

It explains why she is frustrated with you.  Why she gets annoyed you don't just do what she tells you.  Because... .in her mind... .you two are "one."  So she cannot fathom why you would just not do as she says.  The same way if your left leg decided to grow its own brain and act independently of you.  You'd really freak out and try to get it to do what you expect.

Unfortunately, I do not know how this changes your approach... .to get the most favorable approach.  Sorry!

If it occurs to me... .I'll be certain to share.

FF- in your family- massages lead to babies

When I start going down this train of thought, it's usually a good idea to check myself:

Am I reacting to this in ways that say,

"You're not the boss of me... ."

"I am not at your beck and call... ."

"I am not a robot, your robot... ."

Is there a chance she might feel bad and yucky, like you are the boss of her, that she's at your beck and call, robot... .dismissed, disrespected?


She might be a bit melodramatic in her delivery, because her feelings are very strong around this.  My guess would be that she doesn't feel understood or taken seriously by you; like you have all the control.  Like a parent.

Could you both be coming at each other from similar angles?

Sometimes my mom comes flying out of my mouth  

For some reason, this made me think of the Bible passage, "two become one".

OK, I screwed up that re and can't fix it on this Kindle... .look in the middle of the quote.

Yeah!   |iiii

 

123phoebe,

Yes... .she has said before... .and regularly... .that I am in control... .bossy... .etc etc.  says it less now.

I've stopped trying to prove that... .or disprove it.

It's just not the case... .

The couple times in counseling this has been explored... .it ended up being her the one that made decisions... .had control... .while I was inviting compromise.


I don't see me wanting to compromise or find a solution that we are both ok with... .as "being in control"... .I believe she may think that is me asserting control and getting what I want.

Compromise is not what I want... .it's what I can live with.

FF

I don't see me wanting to compromise or find a solution that we are both ok with... .as "being in control"... .I believe she may think that is me asserting control and getting what I want.

Compromise is not what I want... .it's what I can live with.


It may not be how she sees it. In Patricia Evans' book: Controlling People- she discusses people who are willing to compromise- the team players- and those who see a discussion or a topic brought up as an issue to win, or lose.

I realized that I see things as a team, my H sees a discussion over household tasks as a challenge, to win or lose. My mother also sees people as being on her side or someone else's side. She will order us around telling us to do things ( that she could do herself) but if you ask her how she feels, she really feels victimized in some way.

My H has chosen the traditionally male household tasks and sticks to them rigidly in general. At one point he got weird over the trash. Would not do it unless I helped him. This seemed strange to me- I take it out by myself and he is larger and stronger than I am. Why would he need me to help him?

I had the kitchen to clean after dinner ( my job- something he has argued over so I don't ask him to help) and so I said no. This didn't go well. Now, I just took over the job of the trash. I don't care enough about who does it to fight over it.

I also thought of Vortex's idea- the Biblical " two become one" quote but I don't see this as enmeshment but two individuals joining together spiritually for a common purpose. ( of which there can be many). I am sure that there are many ways to interpret that. I expect that all couples have their differences.

My idea of teamwork was not a necessarily 50-50 split in the home. I expected to have the traditional arrangement. However, I also had hoped for some flexibility between us as would be seen where two people are a team. Emotionally it felt as if we were on opposite teams. Is there is a going back and forth between enmeshment and division instead of a comfortable middle?

 

So what does the book have as the "prescription" if you are with a controlling person that sees each argument as win or loose?

FF

I don't think I can summarize it. It is a pretty full book, but a good read. It goes along with her series on verbally abusive people.

What helped me was to see it from the perspective of win or lose, as opposed to team work. It helped me understand how my H was feeling when we discussed these issues. I would recommend the as a good read. I don't think there is one prescription- a move- to make.

I know that it is possible for families to have different roles for men and women. I know of families where there is the reversal- mom at work, dad stay at home. I also know a couple that really do share 50-50 it seems. They both have successful careers. However, I think these roles have emotional baggage for us from our role models. My H was fine with me working, but doing household tasks that he sees as female jobs does something to him emotionally. Actually doing the dishes is no big deal, unless your manhood is attached to that- then it is a big deal.

Sometimes, he will build up a resentment- like over the trash. Once he did it over a car. The cars are his domain- I assumed he wanted to be in charge of the cars but one day he got upset over me not doing what he thought was my part. These things can come out of the blue. Do I build a resentment? Sure, but some things are not worth the fight. It takes 5 minutes to take out the trash.

Your wife may logically understand that her job is essential at the moment. She may even enjoy her job, but the role reversal itself may be bringing out some emotions. IMHO, it may be some emotions that are driving her behavior. Is there some way you can hear her out? Even if you disagree- just let her be heard?

I hope so... .  That is the point... .goal of a nice... .long in person chat.  I'll be posting a small update here in a bit... .but really... .no more big new drama.

From one point of view... .it appears she has been picking up different tools to try to get a rise out of me... .  and not getting what she is looking for.

So... .somehow... .I want... .hope to give her a healthy... .emotional boost... .

FF

I hear you on this.  Trying to get a rise out of us seems par for the course... .

So... .last night was interesting.

Both cars got aligned... .rotated... .that seems all good... .one was out pretty good and drives much better... .straighter.

Wife gave no indication of when she would be home... .most of the time we take care of ourselves with food... .when off with another kid like that... .unless prior arrangements.

So... .745ish... .she comes strolling in the door... ."I'm starved... .what are we all going to eat... ."  Most had already snacked or had light dinner. I was waiting on her to get home to figure out if I was going to have a heavy dinner... .or not... .I had reached out via phone with no success... .

Anyway... .I'm about 80% on the stuff she wants done.  Living room... .was totally done... .with some deep cleaning on wood floors.  Basically... .unknown randoom goo here and there was made to go away with "goo gone"... .that stuff is great.  Someone had put tape on floor... .and left residue.

Kitchen... .instead of mopping... .couple kids and I used stiff scrub brushes and did the grout lines in the kitchen.  Wow! It looks great... .and will force the laundry room to be done next... .it is next door.

One of my kids was working on bathroom when she got home.  It appears she went upstairs and pulled him off the job... .

Anyway... .she went through kitchen a couple times... .as I was making some dinner and finally said... ."kitchen looks great!... ."  I said thanks.

She asked what we used to clean floor and I showed her the stiff brushes... .she asked why we didn't use the grout pads (not sure exact name... .)... .and I said I tried them... .but generally though the brushes were quicker... .more effective.

her:  "So... .seems like we know someone else who says that brushes are better... ."  (one of my alleged ho's has a cleaning company... .I met her when I hired her cleaning company for a Navy base... .years ago... .)  I followed up by saying... ."I'm not that impressed with the smoothness of the grout... .on smoother grout I like the grout pads... .on the rougher stuff... .I like the brushes... ."  (this is true... .and I wanted to not just ignore her comment)

to me... .this was her reaching for "other woman tool" to try to create drama.

Dinner seemed to go fine.

By bedtime she was really tired... .warned me that she might not be awake more than a couple minutes... .so I hurried through a shower and hoped in bed with her.  

I asked if she would like a massage (yep... .I'm going there... .) she seems suspicious.  I said I appreciated the foot rub on the couch and wanted to return favor.  So... .I massaged her for about 10-15 minutes... .light talk... .and we went to sleep... .no sex... .no attempt on my part.

This morning... .nice wakeup and snuggle.  I am downstairs fixing breakfast... .and she comes blowing through the kitchen... .alleging that I know the real reason why we are having a block party (couple guys are getting everyone on street together... .I'm not involved... .) and that after my two hour walk... .when I came home with no sweat... .she knows that I was "hanging out" with someone that knows about the block party... ."

I said  "I saw xyz and his kids when I was out walking... .we talked briefly... ."  xyz is one of the ringleaders.  I had already let her know this the other night... .

She huffed and walked off... .

I asked later if she wanted biscuits... .she said "I might have a yogurt... ."  

I'm pretty sure the left for work without eating... .

So... .that's where we are now.

Should I just ask her to talk this afternoon... .and try to listen for a while?  

FF

FF, consider how much of this might be your feelings?

I think that men, in general, see most men in more traditional gender roles in families. In my family and my H's both fathers worked, moms were home. My H's mom basically did everything. My mom, not sure what she did, but we still had the traditional model.

I didn't set out to be a SAHM. I wanted a career, although I also wanted to have flexibility to be at home at least a good part of the time. That certainly limited options. At one point we decided that me being home was the best situation. I am grateful that I had this time with the kids, yet it took a toll on my self esteem. My job was a source of affirmation- I did a good job, had ( albeit a smaller) a paycheck. Once at home, people would say "why are you not working" "when are you going back to work" - as if I wasn't working? If my H made digs at me- that would be felt very strongly as when he made a comment about the house or kids, it was about me and my "job". If I were to dare walk into his workplace and make comments about his job, he would be undertandably furious.

It surprised me how invalidated my mother felt with my father being " someone" at work and her being either his wife or our mother, but without a sense of who she was. I imagine that is even exaggerated in someone who has a poor sense of self as it is.

I don't know if I am reading too much into your posts, but I get a sense of resentment on the part of your wife- perhaps from her time as a SAHM and now since she is working. For you, I get the sense that you are feeling like she sees you as a servant - you are not the boss of me-. However, not to be facetious- I would say "welcome to the club" of SAH parents. I don't see this as a real thing- it is of great value and ideal service to raise a family and run a home. Unfortunately, I don't think society values it, and this can affect our sense of self esteem. However, I realized that it was my ego I had to contend with too.

Yep... .I've thought about that... .but there has been an undeniable shift her her use of "bait"... .or those kinds of things.

I'm trying not to react to it... .or react badly... .hoping to find a way to validate.

I like being at home... .I like being in the work world.

Here is the thing... .I've had a career... .loved it... .and retired.  I'm open to lots of possibilities for the future... .I'm not seeing many... .any  paths that aren't satisfying to me.

not sure if I responded to your point... .or question... .but those are my feelings.

There are times when she asks me nicely... .properly... .to do things... .so ... .she has the skill... .

FF

FF- on your breakfast discussion.

This is her mood, not yours. If she is upset about something then it is her responsibility to deal with her feelings or tell you or not.

You asked if she wanted a biscuit- well that was nice, but she didn't. Ok she can choose to eat or not. Left the house without eating? She can do that too.

I know that when we live with someone with BPD, we tend to read the signals, anticipate the storm. I clued into this because I am sensitive to my H being irritated. In T, I was told to leave his feelings to him. As long as I would try things to manage his feelings- keep things calm, I was keeping him from managing his own.

So she's pissy. It could be the underlying resentment, or nothing. Maybe she's irritated over something else. IMHO, I would let it be unless she chose to tell me. It isn't easy to hold on to our own emotions in the face of their moods, but I think this is what we need to do, and let them be.

There is a shift in her use of bait because the old bait doesn't work. You are controlling the situation by not taking the bait. You have changed the way things happen. She is likely a bit confused. She used to be able to push your buttons and get a response. Now, you aren't taking the bait and aren't responding. Do you even care that she exists now? You have changed. What is the reason for that change? From her perspective, it could be all sorts of scary things like you being with another woman, fraternizing with the neighbor guys to do some kind of scary guy stuff, or who knows what else she is making up in her mind? (I know you care that she exists. I threw that question out there because that might be part of her underlying feeling. It is just a guess.)


I have a vague thought here that I am not quite sure how to explain. It seems like you are really insistent on validation. That is a good thing. The problem that I have with the over-emphasis on validation is that it can sometimes come across as "You can only have feelings if I validate them" and that has the opposite impact. I am saying this because my husband's sponsor has given him a few lectures/etc. about giving me the space to feel my feelings. It is soo frustrating to try to have a conversation with my husband about serious stuff only to have him say stuff like, "You have ever right to your feelings. I can see why you would be mad. blah, blah, blah" He sounds like a friggin' parrot or something. I know that when I have tried to validate him at different times it has come across as invalidating. No matter how many different ways I have tried to validate, I can't seem to pull it off because it isn't sincere. I get much better results when I am sincere and honest. If he is talking about some feeling of his that I don't understand, I say, "I don't understand how you feel. I am confused. I can't imagine what it is you must be dealing with."

I know that I have changed how I communicate with him and I know that it has had a lot of impact on our overall ability to communicate as a couple. I think the biggest change overall was that I lost my attitude.


I groaned when I read this. You have said that she treats you like a child that isn't hers. You are talking about her like SHE is a child. This is how mothers talk about toddlers, not their spouses.

And, it leads me to wondering what "proper" looks like to you. Is she required to say please?

You have said that you didn't agree to certain things. What does agreement look like to you? I can see how she might be upset. She sends you a list of things that she would like to have done. (Sure, it is a bit dictatorial.) You don't respond or acknowledge what she has asked. Instead, you deflect and tell her that you would love to talk about it. Now, it seems like you are not doing things because you didn't agree to them. What do you agree to? How is your wife going to know what you agree to and what you don't agree to?

Excellent point... .!

FF

All good questions... .

Proper... .is... .at this stage... .pretty much anything that indicates a request... .ANYTHING... .as opposed to a statement or direction.

"Hey... .I was hoping you could get xy and z done today... ."  (while not the way I want it... .I don't see any way to construe that as a command... .)

As opposed to

"do xyz today"

"do xyz today... .I've asked that you do this for x days now... .I figured you would have learned your lesson... .etc etc"

and I'm going... ."request? huh"

OK... .so you've asked... .to me... .if it was in my control

"Let's chat about priorities for the day"

"Ok"

I'm thinking about 123.  Ok good... .I'm looking at abc... .  Great... .I'm onboard with that list.  Is 1 your top priority?  OK... .great... .  Love you... .I'll do the best I can. 

2 minutes... .in and out... .tops... .probably less.

Wife will know what I agree to because say "I agree to that... ."... .or I'm onboard with that list... .or some other acknowledgement that we are looking at something the same way.

Maybe... .one alibi here... .is that I'm a communications major... .and have spent most of my professional life studying... .making sure that 10s of thousands of people are communicating "properly"... .or "effectively".   Basically... .that what the admiral says... .gets to the front line sailors... .

So... .I notice things... .such as a claim that a request was made... .when it was a directive... .and vice versa.  Language matters... .to me anyway.

Just a thought... .if I didn't answer everything... .ask away again... .

FF

There are times when she asks me nicely... .properly... .to do things... .so ... .she has the skill... .

I groaned when I read this. You have said that she treats you like a child that isn't hers. You are talking about her like SHE is a child. This is how mothers talk about toddlers, not their spouses.

And, it leads me to wondering what "proper" looks like to you. Is she required to say please?

You have said that you didn't agree to certain things. What does agreement look like to you? I can see how she might be upset. She sends you a list of things that she would like to have done. (Sure, it is a bit dictatorial.) You don't respond or acknowledge what she has asked. Instead, you deflect and tell her that you would love to talk about it. Now, it seems like you are not doing things because you didn't agree to them. What do you agree to? How is your wife going to know what you agree to and what you don't agree to?


This is a good point. One thing I wonder is, once having the BPD label, that your wife is in a place where she isn't taken seriously. Not everything is BPD although the emotionality from BPD can make things harder.

It took me a long time to have empathy for my mother, and also see her as separate from the relationship with my father. It probably took me becoming an adult to understand how she feels, and not from a resentful place. She was the one with the issues, even if the family tried to hide it- she knew it and we knew it. My father's part in this was not as obvious. Hearing her side- even if it isn't all accurate was enlightening. Once you are labeled as having the issue, people tend to not take you seriously.

My H can easily feel he is being ordered around when he is not. Maybe this is his coming from a military family background- where people are being ordered around, and there is a rank. My H doesn't want to be the enlisted man in the family and neither do I, but sometimes a request is just that, not an order. It makes me crazy when my H says " You didn't say this right!". How am I supposed to say something? I really don't know. Some times, it just isn't worth asking at all if I think it will lead to being berated for how I say it.

My wife and I have this discussion as well.  She blames me for ordering her around.  She wants me to use the word "please".  I normally make a request in the form of a question - "Could you do X for me?"  In my mind I am thinking I am making a request, in her mind the absence of "please" is an order.

This is why I think these things have strong emotional attachments to them. It is part of the walking on eggshells. Something not significant to us might hurt them, and vice versa.

If we were on the same sports team, and a team mate shouted " Give me the ball" we wouldn't yell back " You didn't say PLEASE!" we'd just go with it.

If we feel a sense of one upmanship, then this might feel like an order.

Why are you so caught up in HOW she says things? It almost comes across that you are more concerned about how she is saying things rather than hearing what you are saying. Is giving you a list of stuff to do really that dictatorial? I don't fully understand how that is dictatorial.

At any point, have you made an attempt to do 100% of the things that are on her list? I know that you are resistant to doing the things on the list. I am hearing that you are resistant for the following reasons:

1. She didn't ask properly.

2. It doesn't matter if you do everything on the list, she is still going to complain.

3. Doing everything on the list will be giving her too much power and will validate her power over you, which is something that you are trying to combat.

Am I close on any of these? Did I miss anything?

Which of these things involve boundaries? Which of these things involve values/gender roles/power plays? Which of these things involve pure stubbornness?


This scenario assumes that the two of you will agree. It is quite obvious that the two of you do not agree on what the priorities are. How does she know that you do NOT agree? I may have missed something in what I have read so far. I have not seen you clearly state, "I am NOT going to do those things." I have seen  you mention deflecting. I have seen you mention that you didn't agree to it. If she sends you a to do list, is it possible to respond and say, "I will try to do x, y, and z on the list. I will not be doing a, b, c." I realize that I don't have all of the details and am basing this on what you have said. It seems like there are times when you pretty much leave her hanging. That has to be frustrating.


What does your education tell you to do when two people are vying for the position of admiral? Studying how to make sure that 10s of thousands of people are communicating properly is not how to deal with your wife. She is not 10s of thousands of people. You married her and have 8 kids with her. If you approach communication with her like you would approach communicating with 10s of thousands of people, no wonder she is so frustrated. Neither of you are front line sailors. Neither of you are admirals. How does your communication degree tell you to handle dealing with two admirals that can't seem to agree on who is the boss?


Think about the difference between these two statements:

Take out the trash.

Will you please take out the trash.

I agree with you that language is important. I have gone round and round with my husband about choosing his words more carefully. His default is critical. His default seems to be a bit bossy. At some point, I had to put that aside. I was so busy worrying about word choice and language that I was missing a whole lot of other stuff. Think about whether or not you want to draw the line in the sand over whether or not she makes a directive or a request. It might be worth it to think about why that is so important to you.

So... .in this scenario... .my mind went here.  If a team mate shouted this at me... .and there was history of that teammate effectively using the ball... .I would do it without thinking.

If I saw a better play... .I might pass the ball to someone else.

No... .I would never say please... .or demand it... .it's not appropriate for that scenario... .IMO.

FF

But that team mate is your wife, and you have the choice of giving her the ball, or doing something else with it. However, the second choice - if you decided you had a better idea- could invalidate her.

Maybe you have better ideas and ways to do things, but by doing so, you can also "make her wrong". Nobody likes this. Sometimes they are wrong, but that is better heard from a T, a coach, a teacher, not a spouse.

If you had a coach, the coach might say- give the team mate the ball. This team mate doesn't feel like he/she is an equal player. With practice, he will, but he needs to have the ball to have a chance. It would be best to give him the ball for the sake of team spirit.

Also, consider what is at stake here. This isn't a world series football game, or a military battle where lives are hanging on the decision. If it's a neighborhood game, it is likely the coach cares less about how precise the game is than the team spirit.

Because it matters to me.  I can't force her to say things differently... .but I also don't have to participate in an unhealthy (IMO) conversation style.  



"Honey, can you take out the trash"  Request

"Take out the trash"  :)ictatorial.  Especially when you bring all the other elements into it.  "I told you to do this and you didn't... .you love your mother more... .etc etc" The more "other" stuff that goes along with it... .can either lead to it being more dictatorial... .or less.

So... .walk in room and say take out trash... .but stay in room.  Seems to me like she may be inviting a response.  Walk in room... .turn nose in air... .sniff... .turn... .as walking out of the room "take out trash... ."... .and don't look back... .more dictatorial.

I'm not interested in feeding the cycle of her thinking that this is the way to get me to do things.  I also don't want to purposely not do something... .just because she didn't ask right... .(I still don't get PA... .but I think that is a bit PA)

(question)  If I was planning to mop the floor... .and she dictated to me that I mop it... .so... .I decided to go work on a truck to "show her"... .I think this is PA behavior.  Am I correct.

If I have my day thought out... .a general plan... .and she dictates that I do something... .and I go on about my day and do some things on her dictate plan because I had already thought about them... .I'm not seeing that as PA.

But... .I'm open to comments on the PA thing.


Many... .many... .MANY... .did I say... .many times.  BPD trait behavior is in full swing in our house since 2009 (natural disaster).  I fed the cycle... .badly... .for years.  I would "prove" to her that I completed the list (or task)... .and expect gratitude... .or something like that.  I'm an acts of service guy... .bigtime.

Lately... .when she asks nicely... .I do make extra effort to get stuff done... .to try and reinforce good behavior.


they are good and wonderful things to get done... .but there are other things to get done as well... .and then once the day starts... .life happens.  

So... .not resistant to list... .but resistant to wife setting my priorities without my input. (there... .that might express it better)


That's pretty close... .


I think most of my issue is the values thing.  In MC we talked about what traits we each valued... .values.  Her big one was loyalty (no screwing around with other women)... .mine was kindness... .compassion was number 2.

So this was a list of what we would like to see in other partner... .and that we would show as well.


I say... .I don't agree to that... .or I'm not ok with that compromise... .let's keep working it.  Rarity... .to almost never... .that I say "there will be no compromise".


Correct... .I was never asked if I agreed to do them or not.  In the past... .(not this time)... .she has tried to claim that because she told me... .I agreed.  Or that my response to an email or something was an agreement.  That us "talking about" something means I agree with it.  That if I don't say "I don't agree to this... ." then I agree.  

This is one of many reasons why I think language matters... .communications style matters.  


I imagine it is frustrating... .

I look at it this way... .If she is banging her finger with a hammer... .and then trying to blame me for her finger hurting... .I'm not going to accuse her back of anything... .but I'm not going to pick up blame for finger hurt.  I can try to express compassion for her and her hurt... .rather than blame.  But I'm also not going to try and alter my behavior... .in hopes that she stops banging her finger with a hammer.

I may have just gone to lalala land with that example... .but hitting finger with hammer... .and "dictating" what your hubby does and thinking it is a request... .and getting frustrated because you have created an unrealistic expectation... .are supposed to be similar... .


Nothing... .I would only comment on whether or not their communication process is effective... .or not.  Are they getting messages back and forth... .is the "hearer" hearing what the sender is trying to say.

Many times this would be true.

If it was reciprocated... .all great... .there is a team.  Depending on how much reciprocation there is... .probably decides how strong the team is.

Also depends if the team mate acknowledges the spirit.  After giving the ball a few times... .then getting told "you never give the ball"... .or things like that... .

FF

We can't decide what they are going to think, or reciprocate. They may say "you never give me the ball" but we can't do anything about that. All we can do is decide if we let it get to us and how to respond.

Back to the pink elephant idea. My H can say anything he wants to me. I have to decide if I buy into it or not. He could call me a pink elephant. I can't change what he thinks. Maybe he really believes I am a pink elephant, but I know for certain that I am not. I don't defend it, in fact, defending it accepts that there is some truth to it.

Only we can decide our own feelings and actions. You mentioned the Golden Rule. If that is your code of ethics, then not adhering to that breaks your code. Others do what they want to do. I am pretty sure that this rule was not written with the intent of not defending yourself, or being co-dependent, or being a doormat. However, sometimes we have to pick our battles, what is worth focusing on, what is not, what we can change, and what we can't.  Your wife is not acting according to how you want her too, but I don't know if anything you do or don't do will change that.

My wife demanding that I do various tasks would also be a big issue for me too.  I would also have an issue if she tells me that her tasks must be completed before my tasks.

We each have our own issues that are important to us.  For some, people think "While I don't like it, it isn't worth fighting over."  For others, this is a boundary item.  Only FF can decide which category this falls into.

FF, I think you are correct that your wife should ask, not demand that you perform certain tasks.  Only you can decide if pushing back on this is the best course of action.

*mod*

This has been an interesting discussion. However, it will now be locked as it has reached it's posting limit.

Please feel free to open a new topic about any related issues

Thanks for you participation

Waverider