BPDFamily.com

Dated for 4 years, was amazing for most of it. Then we took each other for granted, things got tense and we broke up at a terrible time. She rebounded instantly to an older married man with kids, I was ok with the break-up at first, then devastated after finding out she rebounded all while my dad was very sick and later passed away. We lived together through it and she lied constantly about this other person.

99.9% sure she has BPD which got much much worse throughout all the break-up turmoil where she lost her friends, me and started a new job. Flipped me to black and changed her whole life around.

After 11 days of NC, we reconnected, she told this other guy it won't work out and she wants to give me a chance. Since then, it's been a total rollercoaster ride with no kissing/intimacy. One day, she's talking about kids, holding my hand and seemingly loving me. The next day, she's distant, mad, confused and scared. We've hung out every day since she came back (the last 2+ weeks after being broken up for 3-4 months, living together for 2 of those and talking almost everyday)

I've been validating her confusion/fear and her being mad at me for taking her for granted. We've talked through what happened and our issues, but here's the gist of where she's coming from:

1) Still has some feelings for me, but they're not the same. She wants them to be the same as before and is afraid they won't be. She's also afraid of hurting me again.

2) She's mad at me for what happened (despite my sincere apologies, acknowledgement and consistent effort to show her I've changed). She wishes I would have proposed 2 years into the relationship and assumes things would have stayed amazing if I had. I asked her if she would have loved the way I was acting now if we were still dating - she said "yes! of course", so at least I'm on the right path.

--She doesn't really acknowledge how badly she hurt me since she thinks she only did what she did because she didn't feel loved.

3) Some days she feels good about us, other days she doesn't.

4) She's worried if we kiss it could ruin everything. She at a minimum wants to be best friends.

She still rarely texts that other guy, but claims she wants nothing with him. I think she just wants to keep him on the side, just in-case, and she doesn't want him to hate her. When I asked if they had talked, she initially lied and said no. Her continuing to lie has been a huge obstacle to our overall progress. I've been debating making a firm "stop talking to him or I'm gone" boundary.

Any advice? Run for it? Keep doing what I'm doing? I told her I'll be patient, I really care about her and love the way she makes me feel and I want to make her happy forever, but the constant up and down is slowly becoming more pain than it's worth.

Why are you 99% she has BPD? 

Also, sometimes the nicest thing you can do for someone is give them what they say they want.  So go NC.  Hardcore.  See what happens, but be prepared to stay NC for a long, long time.   

Here are the BPD traits I've seen during and after the relationship:

-Flipping a switch from white to black

-Extreme emotions/rages and acknowledging that there was no reason for it

-Constantly fluctuating strong emotions that she doesn't cognitively understand. If you ask her why she feels the way she does, she never knows.

-Hops into new relationships super quickly. The highs are super high and the lows are very low.

-Crazy past involving divorce, abusive relationship, strong drugs.

She hasn't asked for NC. She doesn't really have any other friends right now and I think that's part of why she wants to hang out everyday (fear of abandonment). But she initially came back saying she really wanted us to work and that I was better in every way compared to this other guy. We've been taking it slow with overall forward progression with a big bump in the road every 2-3 days (usually as soon as we start getting really close).

If she (or perhaps I) could remove the pressure she's feeling to get back together with me and just went with the flow, I think this could work. She just wants to feel that honey moon stage love forever, which I don't think is realistic. A part of me knows what's likely best is giving each other more space so she can think through things and actually have time to miss me, but we're both afraid to:

Her: no one else to hang out with

Me: afraid to lose her again

Just so you know... .bpdfamily does not allow "run messages" on the staying board... .

There are other boards for "undecided" and others for "leaving".  The focus on those boards supports the title of the boards.

Discussion about the emotions of deciding to stay (which is what I'm seeing from you) is certainly a welcome topic on the staying board.

Ravfour4,

I've been following your story for a while... .I'm glad to have gotten to know you.  You obviously care deeply about the pwBPD traits that you are discussing on here.  

That is a great starting point... .that emotional investment will give you the energy needed to forge ahead.

I think there are some fundamental things that need to be discussed (conclusions are up to you... .it's your life) in order for you to get comfortable with a stay (or go) decisions.

So... .you are 99.9% certain that your partner has BPD.  pwBPD traits tend to be emotionally unstable... .bouncing from "you are the best ever... ." to "I hate you because... ."  and back again before many of us "nons" understand what they are talking about.  It is very confusing to me... .and I suspect most "nons" feel the same way.

But... .IT IS  This is how your partner... .and others affected by this condition are.  

So... .if you accept this is the way it is... .I need help understanding how her emotions... .her feelings are the basis for a stay or go decision in the r/s.  :)oes this seem to be a good way for YOU to decide to stay or go?

FF

Please keep debating this.

I would encourage you to make a separate post about boundaries and your idea for this as a boundary. 

Right now the way it seems to be organized seems a "line in the sandish" vice something that protects your values... .that protects you.

Could be some fundamental understanding of boundaries work that needs to be done... .

FF

I agree with the moderator that maybe this thread needs to be moved.

Also, ravfour4, it seems possible to me (and maybe to others) that there is something real there in terms of her makeup.  The reason that I asked, though, is that whether someone suffers from BPD or any personality disorder is a conclusion (and a fairly sophisticated conclusion), so maybe it's not best to let a (tentative) conclusion that she suffers from a PD greatly influence how you deal with this.  Maybe focus on behaviors, etc.?  I invite others to say what they think of this approach... .

But here's something to consider.  A life with a PD person can be difficult and it probably would require constant management, so... .maybe you want to put some thought into what you would be signing up for if she actually does have a PD. 

From my perspective, I want to make this work and I want to stay, even if there are constant up and downs during the relationship.

Her confusion and her "I care about you a lot, but I'm not sure this will work, but I still want to hang out everyday and love hanging out with you, but I'm mad at you for what you did" attitude has been frustrating, especially given how sad I was when we were apart and she was with that other guy.

This is the pattern I'm seeing:

-Comes over and is flirty, things are going well and almost escalate to a kiss. This continues on and escalates for a few days.

-Next day, surprisingly distant - I assume it's because she's scared we're almost a couple again and if we do that, there's a chance she may get hurt again. We have an argument about it, I try to validate her feelings.

-Next day, she realizes she distanced me and pulls me back (i.e. I just talked to her on the phone and she's excited to come over for dinner before a moonlit canoe ride tonight).

-Things get better and better, then confusion again. Rinse and repeat.

If she can break through the fear and say "let's give this a sincere shot, I'm yours again", I can deal with the up and downs within the relationship, I just have trouble dealing with them outside of it. In a way I feel like a chump who's putting up with a ton, putting in a ton of effort for someone who didn't give a crap about me 2 months ago and hurt me terribly. I love almost every minute we spend together so I feel like it's still worth it for now, I just want it to go one way or the other soon.

I also acknowledge that I shouldn't base my decision on getting back together with her solely on the way she's acting and expect her to "lead" us out of this mess. I'm trying to stay calm/confident and push this thing forward, being a positive static for her, she reciprocates up until a point, then she backs off. I'm trying, I'm not giving up, I just fear at some point I may have to for my personal health and to get what I need out of a r/s and life in general.

Goateeki - when you say there's something real in her make-up, are you implying she may not have a PD and that these are rational thoughts? It's definitely possible, her thinking isn't terribly off-base, just during the break-up itself the way she acted and looking back at how she was during those 4 years, BPD explained a lot of her actions and she had a lot of the traits - although she's very high functioning and I think when she felt very stable/safe in our relationship, it really helped alleviate many of those symptoms.

This is a great statement for a "stayer" to say... .it's something that you can accomplish... .and it seems realistic.  When I read this... .I believe you can make a go of this r/s




When I read the last two paragraphs... .I shake my head a bit... .because... .IMO... .you are handing over your decision to a disordered person.  

You seem to have very specific things you would like her to say and think.  If you present those to her and she doesn't agree or own them... .well... .you have your answer.  

What I suggest is a good approach... .spend time sorting out your feelings.  Not your opinions of her feelings.

Take action bases on what you would feel like doing in the r/s.  She will most likely tag along... .but not in the way you would like her to.  But... .my gut says... .she tags along.

FF

Well, so much for that.

The romantic canoe ride tonight turned into a disaster. I didn't play it up since I wanted us to continue to take things slow and as soon as we got on I said "no matter what we end up becoming, this is going to be a great memory". I tried to not let her mood/confusion affect my state of mind and I overall enjoyed the ride, despite her continually saying she didn't feel good.

I later found out the "not feeling good" was a ton of anxiety about what we were doing being too "date-like" (despite doing tons of date-like things the weeks prior). We got home and she started balling saying she needed to leave and saying she didn't know we had been doing date-like things, despite her flat out saying she knew a few days ago.

I was sick of putting up with it and dug into her confusion. She kept saying she cared about me and always wanted me in her life, which led to me asking why she completely alienated me for 3 months and ditched me for someone else while my father was passing away, when I needed her the most. She couldn't handle the pain of thinking about it all and kept balling/crying constantly and almost having a panic attack. I asked her if she thought there was a chance for us and she said she didn't know and was confused and just kept crying. Eventually she left, I told her to call me later.

She texted me soon after saying she was so sorry, didn't know what happened, still felt sick and was so stressed with all the pressure. I called her to tell her that I care about her a lot, understand her anxiety regarding the pressure and that if she wants to give this a sincere shot, I love her and will be that solid rock in her life that she can always rely on. I told her if she needed time/space, I would give her that and if she knows we won't work out, to let me know so we can move on. She said she was confused, then said she needed space.

I told her I could give her that and knew that was probably best, but that I'd been hesitant to do it since I thought she may just go back to that other guy. Instead of saying "I'm not, I just need time and space to think about us" she got all mad and tried to blame me saying that I should only care about giving her space and that if I'm worried about that other guy, that's another problem. She stayed mad and the phone call ended with me saying "see ya".

Great.  Who knows when we'll next talk or IF we'll talk again. In a way, I feel relieved to not be continually led on by her and continually dragged up and down the rollercoaster she's experiencing. Maybe she'll contact me tomorrow, but unless it's a large apology, I do not see myself responding.

 

I"m confused by "taking it slow".  This seems to be "taking it fast"... .you are spending a lot of time together... .when she is saying she doesn't want to.  Most likely she doesn't know how to say "no"... .so she caves in and does stuff with you.

Then... .when the pressure is too much... .she does something odd... .that you don't like.

Listen:  A wise guy told me on here... .when they say they can't talk... .or need to go... .BELIEVE THEM... .

Be very nonchalant... .send them on their way.

Also... .you seem very interested in how to "convince her" to love you... .

If this is your goal... .don't suggest that she doesn't... .or you might not be together.

Your line about this being a great memory... .would have been much better if the  first part... ."no matter what... ." was taken out.

It's a great memory... .let that stand alone... .

Taking it slow... .to me... .would be once a week contact... .at most... .

She is most likely being truthful when she says she feels pressured... .it seems to me you are pressuring her... .



FF

I agree that this is not taking it slow, the only thing we were taking slow was the physical stuff.

I agree that I made it go faster than she wanted, but she also played a role in that. There were days where I thought, this will be a good day to spend apart and then she'd call me telling me she was on her way over to hangout. We both say we want to take it slow, but neither of us have actually done it and yes, I arguably pushed it more than her by planning these fun date-like activities.

I think we'be had trouble taking it slow because of the dynamic of the relationship right now. We reconnected with her saying she wanted to give it a shot, talking about having a family and future together. After expecting to never see her again, I was ecstatic and so excited to have her back in my life, see the her I knew again, for her to remind me I'm not a terrible person after berating me for months and to have fun together like we used to when we first met. When I see that slipping, I panic and get emotional quickly. I had been working on that and it was getting better, until last night.

I truly am ok with taking it actually slow and waiting until she figures things out. I think the pressure she feels is "oh no, if I don't love him, I won't be able to have him in my life because he doesn't want to just be friends". I've never said this, but it's for the most part true, I don't think we can just be friends and her continually lying and occasionally reconnecting with the guy she rebounded to instantly and lied about constantly have made it hard to stabilize our connection.

She also doesn't really have anyone else in her life right now which is why I think she always wants to hang out, despite wanting to take it slow and why she's so afraid of losing me as a friend.

She texted me last night after our call saying that she just needed time alone to calm down and relax and that she panicked tonight when the "date" was so perfect and something we would have absolutely loved before, but her feelings weren't the same and she said mine weren't either. I told her we should take some time to figure out what we really want and if this is to work, we'll need to put forth serious effort to regain trust and rekindle the relationship, but she doesn't think a relationship should ever entail work, so despite her apparently wanting us to work, she won't work to make it happen.

I told her that a part of me wanted to kiss her on that boat and have things be even better than before and a part of me was still scared/hurt and didn't want to be there (only after I saw how distant she was acting and how the romantic situation made her so uncomfortable). She didn't respond to those last texts and I'm not sure if I'll hear from her today. I guess I'll give her space and time and won't contact her unless she contacts me.

I'm scared we'll never work, despite me being willing to do everything I can to make it work. I'm scared I won't hear from her again, but I guess at least we had 2-3 weeks of doing really fun things and making solid great memories.

 

Here is the thing.

You are the more emotionally stable... .healthy... .mature  ... .of the two of you.  That's not fair... .but it is.

She is not able to take it slow.  She will say that she wants slow (and means it)... .and then act a different way.  That is what pwBPD traits do. 

You must show leadership in this area... .if... .you want the dynamic to change.

So... .she calls... .you are not available as you have already made plans.

Stop talking about "taking it further"... .kissing her... .all of that stuff... .that is not taking it slow... .if she asks... .tell her you will consider it and get back to her... .that you enjoy her company.

Taking is slow is great advice... .the key is to implement it... .regardless of what she does or doesn't do.

Waiting on her to do it... .is not a good plan.

FF

That's good advice and advice I will follow. I'm unsure when or if I'll hear from her again, which scares me, but I need to give her this space.

I already feel a lot of anxiety and a strong urge to call her. Maybe I'm codependent?

 

decide to call her in a week... .

Or some other period of time... .that will get your mind of the "maybe I should" do it today.

FF

We were supposed to go to a baseball game this Friday with her co-workers and she had a package sent to my house today, maybe I'll ask her later tomorrow if we're still on for the game and tell her to come get her package whenever. On the phone last night she said she wanted a couple days of quiet to think and said we'd see about Friday.

At the same time, going to that baseball game wouldn't really be considered taking it slow. I'd have trouble saying no though  

I guess I'll just wait to hear from her. If the pattern continues like it has, she'll end up contacting me later today - likely in fear of losing me for good, but I probably made how much I care about her obvious enough that she's not that scared of that happening. If she cares about me at all, she'll reach out. I need to keep reminding myself of that.

Dah, I was expecting a text or call today, but so far... .nothing.

I guess I probably was way too needy before, when I got this strong urge like this before I'd just call and she'd always say yes to my requests - I guess because she was afraid if she said no I'd hate her or something? I was always prepared to say "oh, ok no prob maybe see you tomorrow?", but she never said no! I guess I should have taken charge more as you suggested.

In the boat yesterday after I said "wow this is awesome, this is going to be a great memory regardless of what we become", she replied with "no matter what happens I want us still to be friends forever, you're not a bad person <my first name + middle name> (i.e. what she says when she's being flirty). After that she slowly "felt sick" and panic'ed about the whole thing. I just don't get it... .why wasn't she able to just enjoy it? I wasn't trying to hold her hand or kiss or even make it romantic - it just happened to be a super romantic setting.

I'm also confused about her texts to me last night. She acknowledged how we react to stress differently, that I like to talk it through and she likes to be left alone (and that I had been doing a good job giving her space up until tonight) and that my feelings are important too. I said I know she needed space, I just got so emotional and wasn't able to give it to her last night, that I've loved hanging out with her so much that I haven't taken the time to think what's best for her, me or us. She replied saying she was so emotional she felt sick and like she couldn't breathe and didn't want to end up on the floor like she did shortly after we broke up (when I was trying to kick her out after finding out she lied to me about being with someone else). She said everything just built up last night and the "date" was so perfect and something we would have LOVED before and she just didn't feel it and she didn't think I did either and it made her freak out.

I replied saying that I think we both have strong emotions towards each other (good + bad) and we're both really scared for different reasons. I told her a part of me wanted her to kiss me and for things to go back to normal like they were before. A part of me is hurt and scared and didn't want to be there. I told her things between us are weird, scary and not ideal and that it'd take serious commitment on both ends to regain trust and rekindle the relationship. I said I think it's possible, but that I know that's not how she sees or wants love to work (having to put in work to make it happen). I also told her I agreed the date would have been perfect before... .stupid hindsight.

I thought she'd respond, but she didn't. It was at like 1 AM though... .but maybe she hated some aspect of that response.

I feel that if she cared, she wouldn't be able to not talk to me all day today, but maybe I'm just being way too needy/consumed with this - I should be able to give her a few days space, but I'm so scared she'll never come back or talk to me that I find it very difficult  We were so close and now it may be gone forever... .again.

I think your combination of pressure and doubt is tough for her. It probably sounds like "if you can't have different feelings I am going to be disappointed and give up on this." Whence "I want to be friends forever whatever happens." She needs to know you will not go away even if her feelings are funky.

That is a challenge in some situations (where to assert boundaries you do need to go away) but not so here I think. You've got great insight about how she is saying yes to please you. Why not let her initiate and thereby find out what she wants?

When I reconnected with my BPD ex I never initiated. I needed to know what he wanted. It was odd but worked for us for quite a while. It helped me to see that if I would just sit quietly, he would come back. It helped him to know he did not need to meet performance expectations from me. For full disclosure, it still has not ended well. He took our beautiful no pressure intimate r/ship horribly for granted and started seeing other people while still expecting to keep his thing with me (and later also denied that he did that, which was not a trust-builder, when he was frantic to pull me back after I stepped away in light of that development). So I'm not promising you a rose garden if you can be reassuring about staying with no pressure. But. That is what will "work" in a limited way to create a feeling of safety.

Thanks for the reply, it makes sense that that may be how she is feeling. So you think it's best to just hold tight and wait for her to reach out?

Would there be harm in reaching out and saying something brief like "I understand why you felt pressured before, can we just start over as friends?" Or something like that? I don't think I'm actually ready to be friends though :/ I'm also not confident she's home alone doing soul searching, I think it's more likely that she's went back to that other guy, which is hurtful to me.

She knows I'll want an answer about the baseball game on Friday though, so I should probably just wait to see if she contacts me. It will show me if she cares.

Yes, I'd recommend you let her show you where SHE is. And also show her you can do that.

Ah, alright I'll try that. I feel a ton of anxiety this morning wanting to contact her, re-reading her texts from Wed night. They were closer to the texts we used to send to each other early on in our relationship, long and full of feelings. I just want to hear her voice again to know she's not gone forever, but I know it will likely come off as needy or that I'm incapable of giving her space   A part of me doesn't care and just wants to hear her, even if it ruins things forever.

I drafted up this text:

"Hi X. I understand why you felt so pressured on Tuesday and these past few weeks and I'm sorry for that. I'll give you all the space you need, but know that I miss hanging out with you. FYI - I have that phone case you ordered."

To send or not to send... .I'm not actually giving her space by sending it, but it will make me feel great to get a response back... .unless it's just "ok". I'm mainly just typing this right now to vent :) I probably shouldn't send it and should just wait until tomorrow and give her a ring/text then... .or just wait until she texts me. I just really want to go to that baseball game w/ her tomorrow

If she's the same person she was the past 3 weeks, she'll call or text soon, but if she reverted back to who she was post break-up and is with that other guy... .she may not. I know I should be confident enough to let her show me which it is, but this fear is getting to me. I just want to know which one it is now so I can move on if it's the latter. The mystery drives me crazy.

ravfour4, I'm not telling you to run.  I will ask you, though, to imagine a relationship over which you do not have to labor like this.  Just pause and think about that for a little while.  Let the idea enter your head. if you want to converse privately, I think that the site has a function for that. 

 

Is sending the text ... ."giving her space... ." ?

Think about that... .I think you will come up with your answer.

FF

@goateeki - Yes, I crave a relationship like that, I've just had a lot of trouble stopping loving her. I sincerely care about her deep down as a person (despite all the pain and anguish she's caused me) and know her too well, so much so that I understand why she's done what she did and for the most part I believe I understand how she felt before the break-up, during it and after it (both when we were apart and together).

She no longer loves me like she did before and it's very doubtful that she ever will again (despite it seeming like she did at times these last 3 weeks). I probably should just move on, heal and wait until I find someone new who I can love fully like I used to love my ex, but people keep saying fight for what you believe in and I truly believe in this despite everything.

I just hate the way our last conversation ended. It left me in the dark as to what's going to happen, how much space she needed, if she actually needed space or it was just her way of going back to that other guy without having to tell me. It drives me crazy, I just want to hear her voice and close it off in a better way, a way that allows me to give her space more fully. I'd almost rather have her be hateful on the call, then I could just say "screw her" or if she was sad, then I'd know she actually needs space and I could give her it. In a way I almost feel addicted to this up and down rollercoaster.

@formfiler - no it's not, but she's never actually wanted space in the past, she'd ask the other guy for it but when he responded she liked it. I just want to give her like a 30 second call to say "sorry that was so crazy, how are you? I miss hanging out with you and want you to take all the time you need". I almost don't care if it explodes. I almost want it to so I don't keep waiting for her reply. It was just too explosive and not calm when we last talked late Tuesday night.

I just listened to a voicemail she sent me earlier last week... .super nice and super excited to hangout with me... .god damnit. That's why I want to call her. Besides the pressure she felt (which I feel I can alleviate), things were going amazing between us and I know it wasn't just one-sided or she wouldn't have wanted to hang out every single day either.

If I can somehow know she's not with that other guy, I CAN be her friend. I can back-off, not do relationship type things, give her space and just have fun. It's when I think that's going on that I get crazy and I couldn't be her friend knowing she was doing that, nor would I expect that guy to put up with her hanging out with me a lot lol.

 

What can you do... .with yourself... .or others... .to help alleviate the strong feelings you have right now... .?

FF

Well, I gave in and it was good! She was excited I called and said she was going to call me later today herself and right away asked me to go to the baseball game because she wanted me to come. Said she was sorry she got so scared and that she still likes me a lot. Now I know to play it cool, take it slow and not be so needy this time around. :)

I think I also caught her at a good time, she had a great day at work and actually listened to my work too and was interested/engaged. Hopefully this will be a less roller coaster like ride.

One weird thing though - she wanted to take a cab to my place and then a cab to the game. Why not just drive to my place and then take a cab to the game so she can drive home later... .? Trying to sleep over? Hmm. Unless she's all of a sudden all in I'll prob have to say no and just drive her home.

This is critical... .

What would "taking it fast" mean? 

What does "taking it slow" mean?

I'm glad you had a good conversation... .I can see that feels great to you.

The next important step comes... .when she seems to push you away... .or become less interested... .or tries to fight.

Don't bit... .be nonchalant about things and keep yourself otherwise occupied until she is in a better mood.

FF

Going slow means hanging out every so often, not talking about us, our future or anything romantic, not planning the next time we'll see each other before we leave, not saying good night every night and good morning every morning. Going slow means spending time apart and focusing on ourselves during those times to strengthen ourselves and potentially our attraction towards each other. It means not hanging out 24/7 or for 20+ hours at a time. It means going at her pace, if she texts me once, I'll send no more than one text back etc.

I think I know what I need to do. She said "regardless of what happens" again, so I think she's still open to the possibility of us being more than friends, but that will come far down the line if ever, not now.

If she gets distant, I will stay calm and not have my emotions match hers. I will not let my emotional state be controlled by hers.

One thing that was a lil sketchy was I thought I may have seen her w that dude when i rode my bike yesterday, but I was hardly certain. When I said I biked around town she instantly said when? Maybe it was her, but for this to have any chance of working, I can't care.

Well... .crap hit the fan. I kept my distance until the game, picked her up and was ready to have a pressure free fun time. I met a ton of her coworkers, most thought I was her boyfriend and we had a lot of fun. I noticed she kept sneaking off to make phone calls and saw her texting that other guy so I called her out on it.

She admitted she was back with him and it evolved in to an hour long drunken intense argument about her wanting to stay friends, but knowing that she's hurt me so badly and can't control the fact she has feelings for someone else etc.

I feel terrible once again. Her actions make minimal sense, a week ago she was cuddling me in my bed, last night before the argument we were grinding on the dance floor... .yet she's back with this other guy and he finally moved out of his house w wife and kids and that corresponds with when she started acting weird and distant and when she started lying to me again. Supposedly this other guy knew we went to the game together and was cool with it... .aka he's just putting up with anything to get her back. Before he wouldn't even let her eat dinner with me and went insane trying to prevent it, but now he'll put up with anything to get her back.

We are here to help.

I get it you feel horrible about this... .you are right to feel that way... .you have significant feelings for this woman that don't seem to be reciprocated.

Here is the thing... .she is making choices... .it may be because she is baiting you... .it may be because she really likes the other guy... .it may be because she really likes you.  The "dance" that is going on is dysfunctional... .

You have the power to change the dance... .all by yourself... .she does not need to play along. 



Most likely... .she was feeling pressure... .remember... .that is her issue... .not yours.


Most likely... .this was what she was after... .it "fed" her part of the dysfunctional dance. 

If you ever get in this position again... .ignore it.  Don't "take the bait... .



Not good... .arguments... .rarely lead to anything good.  You have a choice to argue... .or exit.


 



To you... .they don't.  To her... .they are her world... .they make sense. 

Your challenge... .and one of the reasons I advise you to SLOW DOWN!... .is so that you can learn the "order to the disorder"... .then it will make more sense.



This is not a contest between you and another guy.  Please drop him from your thinking... .and the r/s.

Focus on you... .focus on her. 

Focus on making emotionally healthy choices for you and the r/s.

That doesn't guarantee a result... .that you "get" her... .but it reduces the chances of you feeling bad... .long term.

How does this sound?  Does this change your feelings? 

We are here for you!  Hang in there.

FF

Thanks for always replying FF, I appreciate it.

I think what I fear most is being alone, with the break-up happening concurrently with my dad passing away, I lost my two favorite people in the entire world, the two people that understood me.

I put so much effort into this relationship and I've gotten nothing but pain out of it these past few months. Sure there were many moments where I was having the "time of my life"with her over these past 3 weeks, but she kept lying throughout it and the anxiety I felt in between visits sucked, although at the time I very much thought it was worth it.

I'm coming to understand that what she says and does in the moment - she means, but that it can change so quickly and so drastically at the drop of a pin. A little over a week ago she was saying how much she loved hanging out with me, holding my hand and saying she really wanted us to work.

It hurt me a lot last night when she claimed this other guy loved her more and all of the things she had said she hated about him, she had magically forgotten. I spent so much time focusing on myself before she popped back into my life and afterwards I spent so much time going shopping with her, planning fun yet lighthearted "dates", buying her a necklace she always wanted, cooking her tasty meals, going on fun walks and bike rides, helping her out with work, giving her massages, calming her down when she was stressed and all I got out of it was... .moments of happiness, purely because she was in my life again and because it makes me feel good to help her.

In her eyes, we were way different and I didn't love her anymore. In my eyes, when we were together these past few weeks (during the good times), we were better than ever and my feelings were certainly as strong as ever. I felt back in the honeymoon stage, but with someone I had already known for 4 years. It's so confusing to me that she would hop back into my life, "attempt" to make it work again - stay over and watch movies and cuddle only to hop right back out again, back to a person she said it wouldn't work with for a variety of valid reasons. She keeps alternating between having these terrible stressful conversations with him - then I seem strong and she comes back, until she breaks me down and then he seems strong and she goes back, she hasn't taken a single day to think about what she really wants and she hasn't spent a single day alone.

 

Grief and loss are tough... .I feel your heart coming through the post. 

Allow yourself to grieve... .the feelings are real... .they matter... .

Can you slow down... .sit with your feelings... .sit with the memories.

I would love to hear about some of those memories... .when you feel like writing them.

FF

FormFlier, can you expand on your view that Rav should essentially ignore the role of this other guy? Act as if it's not happening? I don't get that. And if I were his SO wBPD, I'd find that weird also, I think.

I don't think I can focus on her anymore. She straight up doesn't love me anymore, either that or she buried it so deep that I'll never see it again. She's lied to me constantly and only comes back when she's lonely or just to make sure I don't hate her.

I called her this morning just a few hours after our late night argument asking if we could meet up to end on a better note. She said she'd let me know, I texted later and she said she didn't want to talk today. I tried calling a few hours later and then just texted her what I wanted to say. I'm a mess right now.

Here's what I said: "A few weeks ago you promised you wouldn't go back to that person for a variety of reasons and told me you wouldn't hurt me again or be dishonest, and now you have done exactly that. You know I care about you and you know we had a lot of fun these past few weeks, hanging out almost all day every day. I put forth a lot of effort to show you I cared and if you at all loved me, you would have loved and realized that. We could have kept that going. We could have stayed in each other's lives, I would have been there for you, you know that. You don't have to do what you're doing, you don't always have to have a boyfriend. I wish you would just take some time to be alone, to just be <insert name here> and process everything that's happened these past few months. It's been a ridiculous wild roller coaster ride that you've looped multiple people into".

Turn your phone off... .

You need to give yourself some space.

What good can possibly come of contacting her when you are a mess? Seriously... .spend a lot of time thinking about that... .

FF

Rav doesn't want a r/s with the other guy... .doesn't sound like he knows him... .except "through" his pwBPD traits.

Triangles are messy... .when they go well.  They usually don't go well.

If he wants to have a r/s with the lady... .then focus on that.  It appears she uses the other guy as "bait" a diversion... .whatever.  Or... .she may be serious about him.

Discussing it... .dealing with it... .has gotten nowhere in the past... .in fact... .it appears damaging... .so... .quit it.

At some point in the future... .or now... .based on Rav's values... .there will be a value choice to be made.

Does he want to continue in a r/s where the lady is somewhat involved with others.  That is his choice... .not hers... .to make.

So... .to sum it up... .dealing with the other guy continues to be damaging... .I see no reason to believe dealing him in the future would be anything other than damaging or hurtful.  So... .don't discuss it.

Thoughts?

FF

"Turn your phone off" is almost always good advice! That said ... .Rav, it seems to me what you wrote to her was fair and appropriate. I hope you don't spend any time beating yourself up about having sent that. It will not be easy for her to respond to or deal with, but that is not necessariky the test of what we should say or do.

FormFlier, my thoughts about Rav's inquiries about the other guy:

I don't hear him trying to engage with the other man. I hear him asking direct and appropriate questions to the woman who is at least tentatively talking with him about trying to be romantic partners again--about what it means about her intentions that she is also engaged intimately with another man.

Carrying on as if that isn't happening seems self-deceptive. And if I were her it would make me mistrust Rav. They don't have an open relationship arrangement that would explain his indifference to this piece of information which she is dragging in front of his nose.

I've been the one who chose not to raise such issues, and later, my BPD ex wanted to know why, since it hurt me, I didn't say anything at the time. It was a fair question.

I really support honest communication. It's great to use the tools to accomplish it. But willful blindness seems unhelpful.

Getting into an argument about probably was not constructive, but asking about it and not ignoring it does make sense to me.

In the end, Rav may already have known enough to make his own decisions without confirming facts with his SO, but usually it is a good idea to make sure one's inferences are well-founded before drawing major conclusions. His decision not to ignore this feels healthy to me.

No regrets on the text I sent. I still really crave hearing her voice though and I think I've stupidly justified acting needy to her since this other guy has done it repeatedly and apparently it worked... .although the difference is... .she actually loves him and not me.

I want to try calling her again, I just have no idea how she feels about this right now. Does she feel mad? Sad? Happy? Etc. This relationship has already dug itself a grave so I feel like being persistent in trying to contact her really can't make it any worse.

And yes patientandclear, what you said about my inquiries are true. She came back saying they were over for good and that she'd be honest to me and that the other guy wasn't in the picture and that wasn't why she was confused. When I saw that was a lie, I had to call her out on it, I was tired of her thinking it was ok to lie to me

No suggestion to deceive yourself.  Deciding not to participate in a triangle... .and believing one dosen't exist... .are two different things.

My opinion (for what it's worth) is that many pwBPD use other r/s to bait/inflame partners... .that "works" for them... .for some reason.

So... .it takes two to be baited/inflamed... .Rav can make choices about his role in this.  He can't make choices about her role... .that's up to her.

Other reasons... .discussions about "the other guy" seem to have been inflaming in the past... .were inflaming today... .and... .most likely will be in the future.

So... .nobody should be surprised if a discussion about him ends up in pile of smoldering embers... .

Or... .you could make a choice to not discuss him.  He still exists.

Once the r/s "calms" down... .if it does... .then a more reasonable conversation about the future may be able to be had.

Many different ways to look at it.  Most likely best way is to look at it through eyes of a pwBPD... .

FF

So, after my plea for her to call me, she finally did. Ended up being a 40 minute conversation, stayed calm throughout the entire thing. I tried to keep it positive to end on a high note.

Here's the gist:

-Neither of us regret the 4 years we had together and she said our relationship was so perfect for the large majority of that. She won't think or speak badly of me going forward. She acknowledged that she treated me terribly post break-up and lately and that she wasn't fair to me.

-Both acknowledge our role in the break-up and that we may not be the best for each other. I knew this before the break-up, I lost total sight of it afterwards, especially with the combo of my dad's passing. Before she broke-up with me, I was getting fed up with the constant up and down emotions, distant behavior and wasn't sure that she'd be able to consistently challenge me like I would want a life partner to. 

-I calmly asked her about her dishonesty and what her plan was if I hadn't asked about the other guy last night. Would she just keep hanging out with me saying we'll see how it goes and never tell me the truth? She had no plan and wasn't sure what was going to happen.

-Asked why if she knew she wanted to be with this person, why didn't she just stay with him? Why did she come back to me? She said because she wanted to give us a shot because the idea of us working was appealing, but the feelings didn't come back.

-She apologized for breaking a necklace I recently bought her last night. I forgot about that (too many drinks) and just found it on my bed  I realize I didn't even remember the entire conversation, she said I just kept calling her a b___ and she said that she knows she was one. A part of me wonders what would have happened had we not drank as much, I kept my cool until then, but another part of me is glad this happened so I can finally move on.

-Told her how much I care about her, how I've thought about her pretty much nonstop since we met 4 years ago and every single day since the break-up. Told her that when I told her 3+ years ago that I'd never give up on her and would always be there for her, that I hope she knows that's true and sees this as evidence. Told her I'll have to give up now our of necessity, but I don't want to.

-Talked about my fear of the future, she was nice and encouraging, saying she knows I'll meet someone great who will be even better for me and that I'll continue being very successful at work etc. Told her that I really wish there was someway we could continue seeing each other, that I'm scared to not have her in my life. She wished there was too, but knew it wasn't a good idea for any of us right now given the circumstances.




And with that... .we're done I guess. She said maybe we can be friends in the far out future, that she hopes there's a way for that to happen, but in reality, I think that rarely ever happens. I'll probably get more clarity on how terrible she treated me and what she put me through, hopefully meet someone new who truly loves me and never look back

     

We are in your corner!

FF

Hi ravfour4,

I'm glad for you that you got some form of closure here. It still is painful 


You were quite upset with her lying. Not sure you would be happy with that from your friends either. At least for the near future it would be best to focus on detaching, healing and rebuilding of yourself. You deserve better and a good thing is you know it  |iiii

Thanks for the support guys :) I think I'm more scared of being alone, even though I'm only 26 my old plan was to be married by now, now I need to venture out and meet someone brand new while working long hours, but whatever it'll be a fun journey.

When I woke up I couldn't stop thinking of all the nice things she said last week and all the fun things we did, she's definitely just following her emotions without thinking logically about what's happening. A week ago she talking about helping me work on a rap song to perform live and being willing to hype me up on stage... .now she's talking about never talking again and the only thing that happened in the interim was a lot of fun hanging out. I think as soon as she realized we may not work romantically (because she's still mad at me for not being perfect, she feels bad about what she did and has feelings for someone else), she went back to the other guy, despite having a long list of reasons not to and he should also have a long list of reasons not to be with her lol. Had she handled this differently, we could have either reconciled (if she had spoken up about the things that bothered her OR if she didn't migrate all her feelings to someone else right away) or remained friends (if she was single for a while afterwards or even just right now).

I made a video for my Dad's celebration of life party (part 2 in his hometown) that we're throwing and realized I got the wrong version of it from her a few months ago. I called and she said I could come over later today, I think she's missing me, but I know she doesn't love me so it really doesn't matter. Not gonna lie, I'm kind of using this as an excuse to see her although the reasoning is 100% valid, I do need this video by Fri.

The emotional part of me wants to ask her if this is really what she wants when 2 weeks ago she was holding my hand, looking in my eyes saying how happy she was to be free of that old situation, to have me back in her life and apologizing for everything etc. and now she's right back where she started... .The other part of me, the logical part, knows that this isn't love and that even though I crave the attention to fill this void I have with her leaving and my father passing, there's someone out there who can fill it even better, but I don't know who that is, and that's the scary part that drives me crazy.

I've been willing to sacrifice my logic and dignity to get temporary relief, when in reality, I need to push through the temporary pain to get permanent relief.

|iiii

How about trying this statement on for size?  Acknowledge that the pain you have is real.  It's yours (nobody elses) and you will work through it yourself.

FF

Seeing her went ok. I tried to play it cool and never got emotional or angry, but I couldn't resist asking some questions/pointing out why I was frustrated.

Just said that a few weeks ago she was so nice and we were talking about a future and now she's back with this guy, I just wish it made more sense. Her summary was that she can't control her feelings and she was mad at me for yelling at her Friday night and saying mean things.

The video was taking forever to burn to DVD and after our conversation we both just sat there on our phones. She's coming over to drop it off soon, I'll prob thank her for 4 great years, give her a hug and be on my way.

After I left I texted her saying "Sorry about before, I know there's nothing else I can do and I know we've talked about us plenty. Sorry if I said super rude things Friday night, I was just very emotional and being drunk didn't help. I just miss you/us and am cranky about it" (we used to use "cranky" with each other all the time). She responded saying "I know and it's ok".

When she came over to drop off the movie from her car, I stayed calm and acted confident/cocky, she seemed to like it and was smiling/bashful. I said a few things to her:

-I still really like you, you know?

-Maybe we can be friends one day down the line, but I know we need time and space right now.

-I'll be here for you if you need anything.

She told me to have fun at a concert I'm going to tonight (that I had asked if she wanted to come to earlier), wished me luck at a doctor's appointment today and said "I hope the movie works!" as I was walking away. I told her I'd let her know how my appointment went (it was an appointment she had been wanting me to get for a long time that I agreed to as soon as we reconnected). It was a nice good bye.

Last night as I was going to bed I wrote down all the hurtful things she did and realized how she was just using me and not caring about my feelings at all. She tried to act like we were just hanging out as friends and I shouldn't be surprised that she went back... .she knows that's not true. She came back saying she wanted to give us a shot, she told me she was deciding between me and being single not another person, she told me she knew my feelings were important, she held my hand and would talk about babies and a future together. She told her co-workers & mom she was "seeing how things" went with her ex. It wasn't just us being platonic friends, she knew that. I planned to send her no update on my appointment.

I woke up and I missed her despite knowing what she's done... .half way through my appointment I texted her a preliminary update, she responded right away with "that sounds good!". Gave her the full update afterwards and said if you're bored tonight and want to come to the show, lemme know - I didn't expect to go from hanging out everyday to not at all" (but I used some slang etc. that we would use, it was informal and unemotional). She replied asking about some details of my appointment and said she had a sporting event tonight - a part of me just wants her to be mean and ignore me or say "We can't hang out, I told you that". I responded to the questions and told her "it's weird being at work today, I used to be all excited to have a missed call from you. I'll shut up now  :)"

Once again, hoped she wouldn't reply or would deny me, but instead she did and said "and shad it" - another cute thing we used to say. I know we're over, I know she doesn't love me, but I could certainly see her recycling back again. She seems to really be afraid to cut me off completely, maybe it's because she still wants me as Plan B, maybe it's because she grew to really like me again over the past few weeks as a friend, maybe she respected me going off on her and calling her out on her BS or maybe she's just too afraid of conflict to say "stop talking to me".

One important thing I noticed: the texts I sent her today were me just being my fun and joking self. For the first time, I wasn't ridden with fear as I sent them nor did I crave a response. In retrospect, I realize I had been very nervous texting the past 3 weeks. I'm no longer scared of losing her because... .I already have. Seems like a small morsel of progress.