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My wife and i have been separated for close to two months now. She had an affair. She has been back to therapy. However, we already have a tentative divorce agreement and we are just waiting on the attorney to write everything up.

It seems like she is trying to come back.

She has done the push/pull, of course, but each time she does it, she gets a little closer and opens up a little more. That is what has me wondering that she might be sincere. I am still guarded, but it seems like she is sincere.

At the beginning of the separation, she wouldn't let me touch her. She would freak out if I even put my hand on her back or shoulder. There was a brief period where she did allow contact two weeks in, but that retrogressed for a while, but has since come back. The amount of contact that she allows me to have with her seems to be steadily increasing. Like I said, there is still push/pull, but the trend seems to be upward.

She has slowly started opening up about her feelings more and more. We met today and she apologized profusely. She has apologized here and there in the last couple of weeks, but she seemed to feel this apology a lot more.

We have been talking about the things that we think contributed to the affair. We both recognize that we made mistakes. I feel like we have recognized the majority of the issues that contributed to it, but continued therapy will probably help to find any that we might have missed.

She says things that show that she is interested in working on our marriage, i.e. "I can't help but think about us doing xyz... ." She has directly said that she has not decided to work on our marriage, but she keeps on saying things that indicate that she wants to. She has admitted to still wanting me and loving me a couple of weeks ago and has been pretty consistent on that. Today she said that she wants to be with me more than anything, but that she feels so guilty for what being with her could/will/might do to me.

I think that she is having a hard time forgiving herself for what she did.

I have consistently told her that I love her, I want to be with her, and that I think our marriage isn't broken. She feels very hopeless right now and she feels like she destroyed our marriage beyond repair.

Please help me keep my head on straight. My therapist told me to stay guarded on Monday and let her make the next move. I'm trying to do that. I can't ignore the fact that today, she came to me to meet me. That is an amount of effort she hasn't exerted yet during the separation. Every other time, we will meet somewhere else or I will go to her, but this time, she came to meet me at work.

Again, please help me keep my head on straight. I try to repeat in my head over and over, "I am still getting a divorce," but that isn't helping a whole lot.

I would definitely stay guarded and don't push.  Don't be readily available either.  Just know that this MAY be a part of push/pull and expect another turn.  My wife and I over the last several months have gotten really close at times again also and then she turns on a dime (like yesterday) for whatever reason I'm the bad guy this time. 

I agree that I should stay guarded.

It is tough though, I am not going to lie. One new thing that has started happening this week is that she has been asking about what would need to happen for us to fix the marriage. I have told her the basics and she has said that those wouldn't be a problem for her but that she isn't saying we are getting back together.

One of the things is separation from the lover. He is a coworker. She told me today that she got put up for a promotion, and if she got it, it would mean that she would work in a completely different part of the building and would never see him. She quickly followed up with, "But that doesn't mean that we are getting back together... .I just wanted to let you know."

She seems to frequently say things and then catch herself. Several times she has said, "I love you" or "Bye honey" and then she catches herself and gets mad at herself for saying it and apologizes to me for saying it.

I also realize that she could do just what your wife has done and just up and disappear. I realize that this is all part of the illness, but I am definitely feeling much weaker than I did 2-3 weeks ago.

It is tough, sorry you are going through this.

I think the more uncertain they are about what they do and say, the more certain we must be about our goals and values.

Pointing a direction and taking the lead with decisiveness seems vital to me.

Stay guarded |iiii

That is the plan of course... .

but then, last night, we had dinner. We parted ways. She said she was going to stay at a friend's house. I said I would take care of the animals at her(our) apartment. I text her and tell her I'm just going to sleep there and then a few hours later she shows up and snuggles up to me. Who knows what is going to happen. I'm not going to get my hopes up though.

 

Tubro squash

I think you are on the right track.

You are presenting yourself to her as interested... .but a bit aloof... .definitely not "chasing" her.

At some point... you will have to communicate clearly to her your desires... and boundaries.

Spend this time working on that... .so that when the times comes... .you are ready.

We can help you sort through with how best to present that... and discuss when the right time is.

FF

That is the good or bad part. She knows what would be required of her. She said that that those things would not be an issue for her.

It seems like the only thing that is stopping us from moving forward is her fear of me abandoning her. (Terribly ironic isn't it?) Like I said before, she came to me last night and snuggled up to me. She has not done that in more than a month. It is the newest peak of physical contact that she allows and the threshold she allows keeps going up.

I even just got an e-mail notifying that she transferred me money. No strings attached. She just said that she knew I was thin right now and sent me money. She makes a good bit more than I do for the moment.

It is really hard for me to not start thinking that it will work out after all.

which is really her problem that you can't and better don't try to solve.

Please take this advice to heart! 

If... .and it's a big if... .she brings it up... .try to validate.

Let her be the one that brings it up.

If she knows what she has to do... .and has no problem doing it... .then... .I assume she is doing it... .right?

Watch the actions... .more than the words.  Use the words to attempt to validate emotions.

FF

It might work out after all. It might not.

The key is to not become too attached to one particular outcome. If you are too attached to one particular outcome, then that can interfere with the setting of boundaries and staying the course.

For the last couple of years, my husband and I were in a cycle where I would think he was doing better. He said all of the right things. He told me that what I wanted was perfectly reasonable. He would try to stay the course but would fail for some reason or another. He would pick himself up and try again. It was a bit frustrating for me because, in the beginning, when he would do good, I would get excited and hopeful. When he would fail, I would feel crushed. Now, he has been doing pretty good for the last 6 months or so. I am glad to see it and I am supportive of him. I still try to maintain that detached position so that when he slips, I won't take it personally and I won't see it as a big deal.

I think it helps to figure out what your deal breakers are so that you can use them as a bench mark to know how much leeway to give as you try to stay neutral and let her deal with her own stuff. Let her solve her own stuff.

I know that I can't fix her problem for her.

It seems like she is making progress with it though. ~3 weeks ago she wouldn't even let me touch her in any way. She has progressively let me touch her (non-sexually) more and more. Last night, she snuggled up to me in bed for a little bit. That has not happened in a long time. She has stopped trying to hide if I am in the room when she is changing. She gave me some money today. She has purchased dinner for me twice this week. (We separated our paychecks early in the separation and so she actually is giving me something.)

Yesterday when she bought dinner for me, I actually instigated the meeting. I thought that after all the good stuff this week, it might be worth a shot to try to initiate. I didn't get my hopes up, but she agreed to meet for dinner. It went well and was completely positive. I didn't bring up relationship stuff at all, but she did after dinner.  


She brings up her fears somewhat frequently... .perhaps once a day over the last week? I try to use SET whenever she brings it up.

"I'm sorry that you are in so much pain. You must really be struggling to decide if I am worth the risk. I'm still here though, and I still love you."

That seems to be helping her.

I am a big believer of actions speak louder than words. Seeing her actions change so much is part of why I'm having a hard time staying neutral. I'm still maintaining it, but goodness it is hard.


This is much easier said than done. Throughout my life, I have probably been optimistic to a fault. It has lead to numerous disappointments. I feel like I have gotten that under better control though. When I was driving to meet her for dinner last night, I kept repeating to myself out loud,"We are still getting divorced. This doesn't mean that she wants to work on our marriage."

What you described there though is probably my greatest fear. Since we have gone so long before now without a serious episode of dis-regulation, I feel hopeful that, with therapy and intelligent healthy support from me, serious dis-regulations can be a thing of the past. I don't think I could do what you have done for 17 years.

This is my first serious episode of dis-regulation to encounter and it was tough. The learning curve was definitely vicious and my heart was in pieces for a while. Even though I know as much as I do now, I couldn't handle this sort of thing happening over and over again.


We have established some of those deal breakers already. I am working with my therapist to try and nail down all of my deal breakers. She knows that there are things that she is required to do for the relationship to continue. I feel very firm about those initial requirements too.

I am getting better about letting her deal with her own stuff and not taking it personally when she, for example, gets overwhelmed by prolonged physical contact with me and has to scoot to the other side of the couch.

It hasn't been this way at all though for the first three years of our relationship. I could see the BPD symptoms in different parts of our relationship, but it was never anywhere near this bad. I recognize that the "honeymoon" phase of the relationship stopped at one point, but even though I could see the symptoms of BPD after that, they weren't severe or life altering like they are now. Is there any hope that, with her desire to get better and therapy, we could get back to that relatively normal place?

I feel like she is sincere in her efforts to genuinely be different, because she isn't trying to act like everything is all better all at once and she isn't trying to seduce me or anything. If I'm being crazy, tell me.

You are not. Continue working on yourself - no matter how this goes that investment pays back!

 

Can you give us some word for word of how she expresses her fears? 

FF

This is true. I was doing really well for a while there and then she started trying to come back. Obviously she hasn't already made up her mind, but her actions show that she is trying to come back. Seeing that happen after writing her off is brutal. I was honestly happier when it appeared that the marriage was over. She said that she didn't love me anymore. It all seemed so simple.

Now that she has admitted that she still loves me and has feelings for me and wants to be with me, I can't help but open myself up a tiny bit to loving her. But loving her also means realizing that she sees her lover at work every day. Knowing that that is happening is extremely depressing.

The depression is making it a lot harder to work on myself.


Here are some things she has said:

"I don't know what to do. I freak out when I'm around you and I freak out when I'm away."

"I'm walking away from you out of fear and because I know that it's best for you. I'm walking away from children and a family even though it's what I want because I know it's not what I need. I can't be what a family needs from me."

"You'll just leave me. I don't trust you to stay."

"You don't want me. You never will"

"I let you in and you broke my heart. You terrify me."

"You're right. I am afraid."

"I feel guilty."


Currently she is researching and is trying to decide between whether or not she will work on the marriage. This is brutal. I try to detach as much as I can, but damnit it isn't easy.

 

What emotion is "freaking out"

Has she ever expressed that she is angry, fearful? 

Have you asked.

I'm thinking that validation is a better idea that SET. 

This is about her emotions... .not you getting her to see the "truth" that you love her...

FF

Freaking out = anxiety. She has expressed that she is fearful. She has expressed that she is angry with herself. I have said that I thought she was feeling this or that and she typically confirms it.

I try to validate while using SET. I'll say something like, "I can understand why you feel overwhelmed right now. You have a lot on your plate. Anybody would feel overwhelmed."

Or should I be doing more to validate her?

Obviously, nobody wants to sit on pins and needles waiting for their spouse to choose them. Is this unhealthy for me to give her time to decide? I hate waiting as she goes through this decision process. I feel like it should be such an easy decision, but I am aware that because of the connections that develop in an affair, it isn't easy to decide. I hate the fact that she is struggling to decide more than anything I can describe. It is massively depressing... .but then again, when an affair happens, it rocks your world anyways. How do you draw the line between what should be expected in any affair and me enabling her behavior?

I also realize though that this could be the only major bump in our marriage road for the rest of our lives... .or it could end anyways in another 6 months.

I have read a lot of different opinions on the internet. Some say you should give them time and others say give them no time at all. I don't know where my limit is with that. I keep on trying to figure it out and all that I can conclude is that this hurts like hell and at some point in the near future, I won't be able to put up with anymore of her waiting to pick me.

 

Give her time and space... .

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation

Please read the lesson... .read other lessons on validation.

SET is about getting them ready to hear the truth... .yes it can be validating as well.

But... .if they do not feel that you love them... .and you SET that to them... .it may not be validating.

So... .please read... and write us some validating statements... .you know the truth... .

Think more about her emotions and less about your truth... .

Truth is not the battlefield... .many nons... including me... .mistakenly though it was... .

FF

What about NOT invalidating her?

The statement "I can understand why you feel overwhelmed right now. You have a lot on your plate. Anybody would feel overwhelmed." could be invalidating to her. I say that because my husband has tried to use those "I can understand" statements on me. The reason that I find them invalidating is that he doesn't understand what I am going through as I try to heal from the BS that has happened in our relationship. He will never understand it no matter how hard he tries. Just like I will never understand what he is going through as he wrestles with all sorts of shame and guilt and not even being comfortable in his own skin. I can imagine his struggles and he can imagine mine yet neither of us will truly understand the struggles of the other because we are coming at things from completely opposite angles.


When my husband and I started to actively try to do something about the crapulence, a lot of people told us to wait a year before making any kind of decision about anything. That seems to be a pretty common recommendation in 12 step groups. The reason for waiting a year to make any kind of decision is that it gives both parties time to heal. And, the other recommendation is to put the relationship stuff on hold for a while and focus on yourselves. Trying to work on the relationship and come to a decision while both people are in unhealthy/bad places can make things worse. The goal is to step back and have both people focus on getting healthier so that when it comes to make an actual decision, the decision is coming from a healthier place.

This is good insight. I could probably talk to her more and figure out the things that I would need to do. I should also do more reading about validation. I can see how what I said could be invalidating to someone.


That is the unpleasant truth I don't want to hear, but need to hear.

Granted, when you and your husband were at that point, how long had you been married? Were there kids?

Right now, we have only been married 2.5 years. We do not have kids. Waiting a year while she continues to see her lover is not something that I think I am capable of doing. Allowing myself to consider the possibility of a future with her while the affair hasn't completely stopped is soul crushing. I will fail my classes this fall if I have that hanging over me. I have lost an incredible amount of productivity over this. I've also gone from 192-195 pounds to 175 pounds in two months. I can't keep these soul crushing feelings alive for long.

If waiting a year is something I can't do, what is my next best option?

Step 1... .figure out for yourself... .what your dealbreakers are... .those are based on values that you hold dear.

So... .how long can your wife carry on an affair before it becomes a dealbreaker?  That seems to be an important thing to figure out.

This is for you to figureout... .don't worry about BPD rules... .worry about your values...

FF

I don't know where I am with that.

I know of a family where the dad had an affair and even moved in with his lover for a time... .but the mom refused to divorce him, he came back, and they ended up fixing their marriage. Today, you would be hard pressed to find a happier couple.

On the other hand, I know another family where he cheated and divorced his wife for his lover. His life crumbled. He lost his job. His wife raised a bunch of kids on her own and struggled massively for years just to make ends meet.

I say all of this just to illustrate how torn I am. I read one article recently where the person was told to give their spouse six months to choose between the spouse and the lover. It took a few months, but the cheater chose the spouse and they ended up living happily ever after.

But then I have a friend who was separated from his wife for a long time, tried to make it work, and ultimately watched it fail. It crushed him.

As I talk through all of this I think it comes down to this for me:

I will not allow myself to have feelings for her as long as it jeopardizes my future. I am already a couple years behind my peers, and I hate it. I am not willing to risk my grades or take a break from school for her when she can't decide that she wants me.

Unless my feelings about her seeing her lover every day change drastically in the next 3-3.5 weeks, I guess that is where I draw the line... .because all of this crap hanging over my head would cripple me in school.

15 or 16 years and 4 kids!


Like FF said, figure out how long you are willing to wait. Some people completely reject the year long recommendation, especially if there are no kids involved and the relationship is still pretty young.

What are you willing to tolerate?

And, you can go through with the divorce and then start fresh with her later. I have known people that have done that as well. Looking and seeing what other people has done might not be too helpful because for every success story, there is a story of failure. Focus on YOU and what YOU want and what you realistically think you can handle.

This is why I think internet research and reading about all these stories has it's limit.

We can help you figure out "how" to do things better... .bpdfamily is great for that. 

But... .only you can figure out if you "should" do it... .and if "it" aligns with your values.

Last... .do what is right for you... .regardless of outcome. 

For instance.  I'm a stayer... I am going to do the things to be a stayer.  If my wife ends up divorcing me... .I have lived my values... .and that is not a failure (although it is likely I will be sad... )

Does that point of view help?

Thank you VOC and FF. That does help. I won't say that I'm 110% a stayer. When we are living together and she isn't off with somebody else, I can put up with a whole lot. No problem. This whole separation thing just has my mind racing.

I feel like I am the guy that will be the superstar husband as long as she works on getting and staying better. I am a giving person. I could be really good for her, but she has to choose me and respect my boundaries in order to get me.

Things seem to be moving in a good direction. A couple hours ago SHE brought up marriage counseling. I see this as a tiny little victory. Trying not to get my hopes up or sacrifice any of my boundaries and values. Figuring out those boundaries and values is taking longer than I thought it would.

This is big life picture stuff... .who you are.

It is a bad idea to tie who you are to another person.  That can lead to "enmeshment"... .generally... .a bad thing for your identity and the r/s you are in.

It is even a worse idea to tie your identity to another person that is showing signs of a serious mental illness.

So... .think about it... .and let us know who you are... .what YOU want out of this r/s. 

Listen... .we all have our limits.  But... they are ours.  You need to find yours. 

Yes... .I'm pushing you on this... .because many other things flow from this

I'll try to use a funnyism to illustrate it.  If you are wishy washey... .and standing in the middle of the road... .

Well... what happens to those that stand in the middle of the road?

FF

Historically, I have been a sensitive person. One of the things that I loved about my wife was how much she validated feelings that I had. I loved feeling validated and loved. I also have a serious drive to be successful. It may be an unhealthy drive, but that is part of who I am and I don't want to let it go. My wife while still young, has been successful and is moving up through the ranks. I really like that part about her.

One of the things she said when we first started dating is that she could promise me that I would never be bored. That has definitely been true. While not all of the exciting things have been the good kind of exciting, I have never been bored. My FOO, while awesome, is kind of boring. My wife's spontaneity is attractive to me.

So, I want success, love, validation, and spontaneity. Is that what you're going for?

I also can't stop thinking about how I will never want to go through another two month period of insanity like this again. Is it foolish to hope that if we do reconcile and she stays in therapy that we will never have another long drawn out episode like this?

How can you get those things with or without your wife? If you want those things, then create a life for yourself where you can get those things without relying on your wife to get them. What kind of support network do you have? Can you be spontaneous without your wife?

Something else you might consider is whether or not you want to have kids. If you want to have kids, how might that fit into the equation?


I think it is okay to not want to go through anything like this again. The reality is that there will likely be more periods like this if you reconcile. Even if she is in therapy, the likelihood of her having these kinds of episodes again is quite likely. They may not be as long and there may be long periods of time where things are fine. Stressors tend to set them off and there is no way to predict stressors.

Earlier in the thread you mentioned that you don't know how I have done this or 17 years. Things haven't been horrible for those 17 years. There has only been a couple of years that I would consider high conflict. Most of the time, it has been pretty peaceful. He has been checked out and clearly had anger bubbling under the surface. Most of the time, it came out as incidents where he would be grumpy and short. I knew something wasn't quite right but I couldn't put my finger on it and I couldn't describe it.

I have a pathway for my life with and without her to get success. I get love and validation from my mother and grandmother whenever I want it. Spontaneity is something I feel like I am not programmed for at all. I have gotten better about handling it, but the way my brain works, everything is seen as an equation. Spontaneity, by its very nature, disregards that and I feel like that is part of what gives me success in school and work.



Stressors were definitely what set them off. For the last two years straight, I have been working full time and in school full time. She has had a lot of medical treatment for an injury unrelated to BPD that was not her fault. I also realize now that there were a lot of things that I was doing that were wrong. I wasn't validating her feelings at all. I was a terrible listener. I didn't protect my boundaries. Knowing what I know now and looking back at the first two years of our marriage, I'm surprised things didn't come to a head like this sooner.


That does sound a lot more manageable. I worry that I am being too optimistic and that I will disregard things that I shouldn't and end up miserable again in the future anyways. So she will have periods of disregulation again in the future... .I accept that that is the reality. I guess I just hoped that instead of being times where we live apart for two months and she has an affair, it is more of the sort of thing where she sleeps in the other room a couple of nights.

I read a lot about people who were able to make things work, recover, and be happy. I think my greatest fear is that even after recovering as much as she is capable of recovering, it still won't be enough to make me happy.  

I won't tolerate another affair. I don't think that she wants to be that way though. In one of the increasingly common moments of clarity, she broke down and talked about how miserable she was and how much she hated herself for messing up our marriage so much. She doesn't think that she is worthy of being forgiven or trusted again.

So... are you tolerating this affair? 

Where does an affair fall out in this list that you wrote?[/quote]
So, I want success, love, validation, and spontaneity.  [/quote]
Where is the value in what you want that says you won't tolerate an affair... .or another affair? 

Yes... .still pushing... .because it's not the answer that matters... .it's that you have thought this through... .and have an answer.

Eventually we will be educating you about putting boundaries in place... .boundaries will be based on your well thought out values.  If you "cave in" on a boundary... .that is bad stuff... .worse than not having them at all.

FF

So, I want success, love, validation, and spontaneity.  [/quote]
Where is the value in what you want that says you won't tolerate an affair... .or another affair? 

Yes... .still pushing... .because it's not the answer that matters... .it's that you have thought this through... .and have an answer.

Eventually we will be educating you about putting boundaries in place... .boundaries will be based on your well thought out values.  If you "cave in" on a boundary... .that is bad stuff... .worse than not having them at all.

FF[/quote]
I'm not upset about being pushed. I appreciate it. It is helping me sort all of this out.

I don't know that I am tolerating it. I guess not moving forward with divorce right now is, in a way, me tolerating it. It isn't that I am not willing to move forward, I am just waiting for the attorney to do everything.

I have told her that I won't be with her unless she chooses to be with me and that if she does not choose me before my semester starts up in a few weeks, she will have lost her chance.

I say that I won't tolerate a second affair because of what I have read about affairs. If someone has only had one affair, it may be something that can be fixed. If it is their 2nd or 3rd, it is much more likely that it will be a pattern. That is why I won't tolerate a 2nd affair but I am willing to forgive the 1st IF she does everything that I have told her she needs to do to fix our marriage.

I guess that I am more forgiving of this 1st one because I realize that I did a lot of things the wrong way and I wasn't there for her emotionally like I should have been. My emotional availability would not have been sufficient for any woman, let alone a woman with BPD. Thus, recognizing how I contributed to it in some way makes me willing to try again and forgive her this time.

I feel like I am much more healthy now than I was before. I feel like I am much better equipped to be a good listener and available emotionally like she needs me to be. That is why I am willing to try again. If, after I have improved myself so much and she continues her therapy, she does it again, then I will know beyond the shadow of a doubt that my improvements and her therapy won't fix the marriage. That is when I would definitely cut my losses.

OK... .you've drawn the line in the sand. 

What happens when the semester starts and you are not reconciled?

What does "choosing" mean (from your point of view) and  (from her point of view)?

FF

If we aren't reconciled by then, then I am completely done. Marrying her already slowed my schooling down and gave me a lot of student loans. I won't slow down my schooling anymore for her while she can't decide whether or not she wants to pick me. I have also told her that this affair is breaking me and I can't guarantee her that I will last another three weeks. I told her that every day that passes while she hasn't chosen me, I get closer to never having romantic feelings for her again.

She knows what choosing me means. It means cutting off contact with him 100%. It means following the steps to repair a marriage after infidelity that we have found on the internet. It means marriage counseling. It means that she will never stop going to therapy ever again.

I am going to challenge this a bit. I see that you are having dinners with her and talking to her and being with her. She is still having an affair? There are a lot more things that one can do BEFORE moving towards divorce to say "I won't tolerate an affair." What would happen if you said and followed through on something like, "I will not have lunch with you again until the affair stops" or "I will not share a bed with you/snuggle with you/be close with you as long as you are having an affair" I may be wrong but I think that is what FF may be getting at.

When my husband said that he wanted to be friends and raise the kids while living in the same house, I started acting like that. I told him "No more hugs, no more kisses, no more doing all of the little things that make up a romantic relationship." It only took a couple of days of me enforcing that before he changed his tune.

From where I am sitting, it looks like you are tolerating it because you are allowing her to move closer to you and do things with her that do NOT say, "I will NOT tolerate you continuing your affair."


What do you think choosing you looks like? Are you looking for some kind of grand gesture? How will you know that she has chosen you? (Hint: Words don't count!)


It is great that you are recognizing the dynamics that have occurred in the relationship to get you to this point. It is great that you are willing to be forgiving and try again. From my years of experience, I tend to be a bit wary and want to emphasize how important it is for you to hold on to yourself. I have spent a lot of years taking a lot of responsibility for the stuff that has gone wrong in our relationship. No matter how much responsibility I take and no matter how much I change and work for the better, there are things about my husband that aren't likely to change.

This is great advice by VOC here Turbo.  I agree wholeheartedly.  Read my latest post in my thread about the "healthy communication" boundary I have set and how it is working.  VOC is basically saying the same thing.

You are absolutely right. I have been enabling her. Anything that has even a hint of romantic involvement stops. No more hand holding. No touching. No kissing. That is absolutely what I needed to be doing this whole time.


She cuts off contact from him completely. I can look at the phone bill and not see his number at all. She lets me look at her phone again... .and all of the other things I mentioned before. She has to be in therapy as long as we are married. She has to be willing to accept responsibility for her actions.


I appreciate you mentioning that. I recognize that I contributed but I KNOW that it was 100% her choice to have the affair and that it was 100% her choice to not be in therapy for the last 2-3 years. I am only saying that I recognize that I contributed to the situation. I know that it is not all my fault. I wouldn't even say that it is primarily my fault. I just realize that I contributed to it some.

My line in the sand is that she has to stay in therapy and work those techniques for the rest of her life. She has to accept how she let herself get sick and contributed in a massive way to all of this.

How would you quantify the metrics of this boundary?  Especially if things are going well for an extended period of time with no hiccups?

That is a tough question. I would say to start, visiting with her therapist at least once/week until I am feeling like the symptoms are diminishing. After that, she could go down to once every two weeks or once every month, but I could never allow therapy to be less than once every month... .and that would only be acceptable if she was doing a lot better and hadn't had any hiccups for months.

That's a fair answer.  I'm a coach, so I use metrics and analytics in every decision I make (cut them or keep them).  The "effort" of the athlete is the most important thing.  Are they giving me a "perfect effort".  Nobody can be perfect, but their failure should not be because of their lack of effort.  Formflier helped me to think more along these lines also... .

This ^ x100.

In retrospect, I realize that she had little cries for help here and there. And when I mean little, I mean little. She said that she thought I should read a book about BPD. I wanted to, but I was hitting midterms during my junior year of engineering school... .aka I didn't have enough time to sleep or eat let alone learn about something else other than engineering.

Now I recognize that she was trying somewhat, but I didn't understand that she was asking for help. I still think that she should have tried more before the affair, but thinking about that doesn't help things right now.

She has said that she has been falling apart through all of this and that she misses me a lot. If this motivates her to try a lot harder to take care of her mental health, fantastic. But, like you said, if her failure comes from a lack of effort, I'm not okay with that and I will be out the door in a heartbeat.

I had some discomfort when I read this.

The reason is that I question whether or not you are being realistic.

First, I don't think anybody deliberately lets themselves get sick. I think people with mental illness really do want to be normal. I have a sister that cycles. When she is in her good periods, she doesn't want to see a therapist or take drugs or do any of those things. She wants to be normal. She wants to feel normal. She usually crashes again. It is never deliberate on her part and I would not characterize it as letting herself get sick.

Also, I have seen too many instances of people going to therapy and doing everything they are supposed to do without marked improvement. What happens if she jumps through all of your hoops with regards to therapy and doesn't improve as quickly as you want?

Would it be possible to define the metrics in terms of behavior that you will or won't accept?

I am thinking something along the lines of:

-No affairs.

-No abuse.

-No contacting the affair partner.

I think pushing therapy is a really good idea. I am challenging you to think deeper and be more specific.

Indeed. This is a plan for close monitoring and controlling her therapy. It requires constant judgment of her behavior by you. Not a path leading to two strong individuals but a path for two people focused on each other, trying to control each others behavior.

Progress through therapy is not a straight path. There will be set-backs. There will be out of control behavior, some of it hurtful.

So what are the deal breakers?

And how do you protect you yourself against behavior that is not a deal breaker but is still not acceptable?

And what behavior do you accept, behavior which is not o.k. but then nobody is perfect?

I'm not going to lie, I have my own issues too. Two of my siblings are drug addicts. I think I have emotional abandonment issues that stem from my parents' emotional distance during my childhood. I don't blame my parents at all. They are only human and they did the best they could. Frankly, they did a fantastic job all things considered. Nevertheless, because the two siblings above me were drug addicts, I spent a lot of years not having my emotional needs met. My siblings were addicted and my parents were perpetually drained because of my siblings.

As I think about the things being said here, my actions, and the things my therapist has said, I can't help but think that I have abandonment issues too.

That is probably why I went after the physical and emotional contact again even though she had not decided that the affair was over.

I don't expect all of her symptoms to disappear. Some of the symptoms I actually like.

Those three behaviors that you mentioned are perfect though. Really, I could put up with some mistreatment for a while as long as there were no affairs and she did not contact the affair partner.

I said that I had issues before to reply to your comment about me blaming her. I said all of that to say this: the amount attachment that I develop to my romantic partners may be unhealthy.

Once I got married, I stopped checkling out other women. I stopped initiating conversations with women. If a woman started talking to me and we talked for more than 2 minutes, I would find a reason to mention my wife. Thoughout our entire marriage, I never entertained the thought of being with someone else. Every thought I had about the future had my wife in it.

Now that we are separated, I am in agony. When we were just moving forward with divorce and she said that she didn't have feelings for me, it was a lot simpler and easier. Now that she has said that she does have feelings for me and is trying to figure out whether or not she will be with me again, I am back to the agony and the depression.

When I allow myself to entertain the idea of a future with her I start thinking about everything we can do to fix it and get back to where we used to be, it crushes me when she isn't as dedicated to fixing it as I am.

Blaming her for letting her illness get out of hand probably isn't fair... .but it makes it easier to survive.

I guess you could say that I am having the most difficulty staying centered. When I had accepted that we were done, I was feeling good all of the certainty that I had in my life. Now that we may not be done, the uncertainty is proving very difficult for me to handle.

You can not have certainty over what happens. You can have some degree of certainty over what you will do. Often we commit to outcome when commitment to process would be healthier considering the number of variables that are totally out of our control.

I can handle set-backs that aren't repeated affairs. I can handle hurt. As long as the trend is forwards, I am okay with set-backs.

Deal breakers? Everytime that question is asked, I feel a little different. I can tell that recently, she has been trying to come back to me. Yesterday, SHE said she wanted to do marriage counseling. That is a big step forward for her. Today, I messaged her, she didn't respond immediately, but she did say a little while later, "I got your message, but I am slammed at work right now. I'll get back to you about that later."

That was something that I had asked for. I wanted her to communicate with me and keep me up to date. I wanted her to tell me she couldn't talk rather than just not respond for eight hours. Her doing that shows me that she is listening to what I am saying and trying to come back.

She has also been calling me on the phone a lot more recently. This is a massive improvement. For several weeks there, she would never call and rarely pick up the phone when I called.

I guess what she is doing affects what I feel is acceptable. I can tell that she is reaching out to me more and her affair partner less. I can see this from how often she is meeting me now and from the phone records. When I consistently feel like she is trying to come back, I feel like there is a lot more that I can handle. When I don't feel like she is trying to come back, what I am willing to handle changes drastically. Maybe this is unhealthy?

Irritability/moodiness is something that I can easily accept. Yelling at me and not listening to me isn't a deal breaker, but isn't acceptable either.

I think that the only deal breaker is the affair not completely ending in the correct way (to ensure it doesn't start up again) very soon. How soon? I really can't say.

What do you mean by commitment to process?

There is a lot of focus on deal breakers in this thread and maybe it should be so. But then that is only one part of the story. There is other behavior we have to deal with. And what exactly is meant with "I can handle... ."? Suffer through it? Close eyes? Try to stop it once in a while when it gets too bad? Lack of respect starts way earlier than sleeping with another person. Boundaries are tools to ensure we are respected. They consist of rules for ourselves. Deal breaker rules are critical. But so are others. In some sense a complete set of boundaries gives us rules how to work though potentially escalating problems while protecting our values. Setting boundaries and executing them is a process... .

... .a process where we don't have control over the outcome but have control over our behavior. Letting go of outcome protects us e.g. from being manipulated or overextension of resources.

I am going to share my interpretation and experience with commitment to process rather than commitment to the outcome.

When one is committed to the process, the focus on the final outcome is removed.

I spoke with my husband not too long ago. We were talking about how much better if feels when both of us are committed to individual growth rather than being committed to our relationship or being focused on the ultimate outcome.

It took me a long time to understand this. When I first started reaching out for help, I wondered how in the world any progress could be made if there was no commitment to the relationship. I wondered how in the world one could focus on the process without being anxious about whether or not this would lead to divorce. I was wanting some kind of guarantee that doing this work would lead to some kind of guarantee or assurance that our relationship would survive. The more work I do on myself, the less I am concerned with the outcome.

I listened to a podcast one time that said that in order for a relationship to survive, it is more important for both participants to commit to self growth and self improvement. People could commit to the relationship but not themselves. With my husband, I was told repeatedly to stop fretting about whether or not he was going to meetings or therapy. I was told repeatedly to stop fretting over what he is or isn't doing. That is on him, not me. The only thing that I should be focusing on is my values and how I will or won't allow him to treat me. If he is doing something that is unacceptable, then it is up to me to set a boundary to protect myself. Don't rely on him for anything. That is a difficult pill to swallow. For example, if he is having an affair and I don't want to be in a relationship with somebody that is doing that, then it is up to me to decide what boundaries to set that communicates, "I do not find that acceptable". Some people see divorce as the only way to communicate that. There are lots of other ways to communicate boundaries.

Learning my values and figuring out what boundaries I wanted to set and how to set them was a process. I couldn't expect overnight success. I have been on these boards for close to a year now. I am still figuring out what is important to me. I am still figuring out what I am okay with and what I am not okay with. My husband doesn't go to therapy that often because of financial issues. He is, however, attending his 12 step meeting. He is reading books. And, his behavior is changing dramatically. I can see that he is committed to working on himself. By looking at how he is treating me rather than a set behavior like attending therapy, it gives both of us more wiggle room. If he has a set back, it is easier to take because I haven't defined things too rigidly and I am not trying to micromanage his life.

I feel like I can handle means that I can have an easy times doing the healthy things that I should do to help the marriage as long as I am seeing the progress.  For example, if she is yelling, I can get up, tell her calmly why I am walking out of the room, and then walk out of the room and wait for her to calm down and come to me.

You are definitely right about finding boundaries being a process. I feel like that is what I have been working on for the last couple of weeks and that the progress I am making is slow. The depression I often feel through all of this makes it more difficult to work on myself.

I guess what you're saying is that I should only focus on boundaries and stop focusing on what will happen, right?

Not going to lie, that is hard for me. Planning for the future is something I do constantly. When you don't know what your future may hold though, it is frustrating. I do need to let go of the outcome though. It is easier said than done.


You are absolutely right. I think that that was the feeling that I had behind me feeling like she has to be in therapy. If I am going to be in a relationship with her, she needs to be committed to working on herself. Frankly, neither of us have been working on ourselves very much over the last couple of years. We were just trying to do too much. We were always putting out fires and did not get the quiet moments of introspection that we needed to see problems and work on ourselves.

Stop for a second! Can you clarify what you mean by "doing the healthy things that I should to do help the marriage as long as I am seeing the progress"?

If you don't see progress are you going to stop doing healthy things?

Sometimes, healthy things like setting boundaries and protecting yourself don't help the marriage because the other person doesn't take it well.

Walking out of the room when she is yelling isn't about the marriage. That is about YOU and protecting yourself from being yelled at by your spouse.


Focusing too much on the final outcome can make setting boundaries difficult. The reason is that there are times when you try to set a boundary that the other person will react negatively. There will be an extinction outburst where their behavior gets worse. When their behavior gets worse, it is really easy to back pedal and stop enforcing the boundary out of fear that it will do irreparable damage to the relationship.

I think that is why people are trying to get you to define your values and what is or isn't acceptable. Like an0ught said, there is more to this than just the deal breakers. What other behaviors does your wife exhibit that are problematic? You have identified yelling as one of them and you have said something that you can do when she yells.

What are some other things along those same lines? I have found that the harder stuff to figure out is the small day to day stuff. It is things like how household tasks are handled. How are the finances handled? What do I do when I want his attention but he doesn't seem available? What do I do when he is pulling away? What do I do when he demands more of my attention than I want to give in a particular moment? How do I respond when he looks over my shoulder and reads my stuff and questions me about it? None of those things are deal breakers. They are things that start out as small annoyances but can easily build up over time because I thought I could deal with them because they didn't seem like that big of a deal.

All of the reading that I have done about marriage and relationships seem to indicate that it is soo much easier to work through a deal breaker like an affair if there isn't a lot of the little stuff to pile on it and compound it. The struggles that I have in my relationship right now aren't me dealing with the great big deal breaker type things. My struggles are over the thousands of little things that I didn't do anything about because I thought I could handle it.


It is way easier said than done! I have been where you are. There are times when I still slip back into that place where I am anxious about the future. There are still times when I will go back to fretting about the what ifs. . .It is a process.  :)


You can't control what she does or doesn't do. All you can control is what YOU do. All you can control is how you react to what she does.

This works out better when you change the WE to an "I". 'I was always putting out fired and did not get the quiet moment of introspection that I needed to see the problems and work on myself. '

What can YOU do to give yourself quiet moments of introspection that you need to work on yourself?

The last thing I would say is only boundaries. I'm saying there is more than b&w to boundaries. And there is more to the process than boundaries too. There is radical acceptance, there is validation there is mindfulness.

What is not there are shortcuts. At least no significamt ones. And if you believe you are making slow progress dig through the board. This stuff is hard. You need to shift perspective and modify long trained behavior. You need to plot a path with your partner. If you internalized what is all written in this thread in a month it would be a miracle.

I was under the impression that doing the healthy thing for me was ultimately doing the healthy thing for the marriage as well, no? Even if it irritates her, walking out when she is mad immediately helps me and ultimately helps the marriage. Right?


Dear lord this is true. Problematic? The massive push/pull that is still going on. Her love for me feels like the tides... .except each time the tide(her love) gets a little stronger. The day before yesterday she said that she wanted to do marriage counseling. Today, she got irritated when I wanted to meet to talk like she had asked me to last night. I told her that I loved her and that I was sorry and that I had forgotten that even though I wanted to work on the marriage, she didn't want to. She said that that wasn't fair. I said that she knew exactly what she needed to do to work on the marriage and that she knew that staying on the present course would end the marriage. Thus, by staying on the present course, she is choosing to end the marriage. That was 4 hours ago and she hasn't responded since.

Like I said, the extreme push/pull is problematic. She gets extremely defensive and it can be difficult to talk to her about something that she has done that bothers me. If she will hear me out, she usually gets extremely depressed and can't handle talking about it for very long.



She also is bad with money. I'm always wanting to save and she is always wanting to spend. She will develop a big elaborate plan to allow us to save money... .and then there will be this dress that was on sale and only $50 that she just had to buy.


As I have thought back, there are definitely lots of little things that both of us were doing wrong. I realize that that would make it less likely for us to get back together and even though I'm not supposed to think about it, it is difficult when I've been feeling as depressed as I have been this last week.


THIS. I realized this today. Throughout the last year, I was always saying that we needed to do less and that we were doing too much. I couldn't say exactly why we needed to do less, but I felt that that was the thing to do. She didn't listen. We kept the pace up. Too many problems festered and now we are where we are now.


That is part of the problem. The way that I used to always do this was by riding my motorcycle. Mine is currently broken down though and I don't have the money to fix it.


Too true. I want to plot a path to make this all work out. She hasn't decided yet that she wants to work on our marriage though. That makes it really hard. I'm really trying to internalize something my therapist said two weeks ago: "This is going to take a long time." It is very true. I'm going to have to work my butt off for a long time before this massively improves.

Doing what is healthy for you isn't always what is healthy for the marriage or the relationship. I am thinking about the fact that marriages require compromise and give and take. Sometimes, staying in the relationship requires more compromise than is healthy for you. Compromising might be good for the marriage but it isn't good for you after a certain point.

Does that make sense?

It may or may not eventually help the marriage. There is no way to predict whether or not it will help or hurt the marriage.

Hello turbo squash


there is no path you can plot through a minefield while hurricanes are blowing and the earth is shaking. You may have a plan for a path and the will to see it through but once you started the world looks vastly different. Note that this is different from having a vision of a path and a commitment to do one step after the other but only safe steps.

I'm a bit worried about you talking about your wife not committing to work on it while you consider working super hard on it. You can't compensate for your wife's work. She needs to do hers and you need to do yours.

Yes... .thanks an0ught for putting into words what has been bugging me and I've been trying to figure out how to say about this thread.

There are a couple ideas/things here. 

Waiting on a pw a personality disorder to come around and decide to work on things doesn't work/isn't a good plan.

You trying to do all the work on the marriage for a long time... .doesn't work either.

However... you are the non.   You are the one that can regulate emotions better and has a clearer view of the world.

Therefore... .it is up to you to provide leadership for yourself... .and for the r/s. 

Note:  This is fair... .but... .it is... .

Your therapist is correct... .this will take a while and will be hard.  What good things in life come easy?

I see a period of personal growth coming up.  This is like going to the gym... .BIGTIME... .

So... it looks like you have a T... .and you are building a support system over here... .  You have a wife that you are still communicating with.  So... I'm thinking you have the groundwork for a good support system and a recipe for a better outcome.

Note:  I would keep this to yourself... .don't lay your gameplan out to your wife. 

Do you think you can commit to working on things for several months and then see where things stand... if there is improvement?  If there is improvement... .then that should embolden you to press forward.  If you get to a point where things have plateaued for several months in a row... with no improvement.  Then maybe you have found the limit of growth/improvement for right now.

How do you feel about reading all of this?

FF

*mod*


This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .