It seems like she is trying to come back

[formflier]

I have told her that I won't be with her unless she chooses to be with me and that if she does not choose me before my semester starts up in a few weeks, she will have lost her chance.

OK... .you've drawn the line in the sand. 

What happens when the semester starts and you are not reconciled?

What does "choosing" mean (from your point of view) and  (from her point of view)?

FF

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[turbo squash]

I have told her that I won't be with her unless she chooses to be with me and that if she does not choose me before my semester starts up in a few weeks, she will have lost her chance.

OK... .you've drawn the line in the sand.  

What happens when the semester starts and you are not reconciled?

What does "choosing" mean (from your point of view) and  (from her point of view)?

FF

If we aren't reconciled by then, then I am completely done. Marrying her already slowed my schooling down and gave me a lot of student loans. I won't slow down my schooling anymore for her while she can't decide whether or not she wants to pick me. I have also told her that this affair is breaking me and I can't guarantee her that I will last another three weeks. I told her that every day that passes while she hasn't chosen me, I get closer to never having romantic feelings for her again.

She knows what choosing me means. It means cutting off contact with him 100%. It means following the steps to repair a marriage after infidelity that we have found on the internet. It means marriage counseling. It means that she will never stop going to therapy ever again.

[vortex of confusion]

I don't know that I am tolerating it. I guess not moving forward with divorce right now is, in a way, me tolerating it. It isn't that I am not willing to move forward, I am just waiting for the attorney to do everything.

I am going to challenge this a bit. I see that you are having dinners with her and talking to her and being with her. She is still having an affair? There are a lot more things that one can do BEFORE moving towards divorce to say "I won't tolerate an affair." What would happen if you said and followed through on something like, "I will not have lunch with you again until the affair stops" or "I will not share a bed with you/snuggle with you/be close with you as long as you are having an affair" I may be wrong but I think that is what FF may be getting at.

When my husband said that he wanted to be friends and raise the kids while living in the same house, I started acting like that. I told him "No more hugs, no more kisses, no more doing all of the little things that make up a romantic relationship." It only took a couple of days of me enforcing that before he changed his tune.

From where I am sitting, it looks like you are tolerating it because you are allowing her to move closer to you and do things with her that do NOT say, "I will NOT tolerate you continuing your affair."

I have told her that I won't be with her unless she chooses to be with me and that if she does not choose me before my semester starts up in a few weeks, she will have lost her chance.

What do you think choosing you looks like? Are you looking for some kind of grand gesture? How will you know that she has chosen you? (Hint: Words don't count!)

I guess that I am more forgiving of this 1st one because I realize that I did a lot of things the wrong way and I wasn't there for her emotionally like I should have been. My emotional availability would not have been sufficient for any woman, let alone a woman with BPD. Thus, recognizing how I contributed to it in some way makes me willing to try again and forgive her this time.

It is great that you are recognizing the dynamics that have occurred in the relationship to get you to this point. It is great that you are willing to be forgiving and try again. From my years of experience, I tend to be a bit wary and want to emphasize how important it is for you to hold on to yourself. I have spent a lot of years taking a lot of responsibility for the stuff that has gone wrong in our relationship. No matter how much responsibility I take and no matter how much I change and work for the better, there are things about my husband that aren't likely to change.

[MaroonLiquid]

I am going to challenge this a bit. I see that you are having dinners with her and talking to her and being with her. She is still having an affair? There are a lot more things that one can do BEFORE moving towards divorce to say "I won't tolerate an affair." What would happen if you said and followed through on something like, "I will not have lunch with you again until the affair stops" or "I will not share a bed with you/snuggle with you/be close with you as long as you are having an affair" I may be wrong but I think that is what FF may be getting at.

When my husband said that he wanted to be friends and raise the kids while living in the same house, I started acting like that. I told him "No more hugs, no more kisses, no more doing all of the little things that make up a romantic relationship." It only took a couple of days of me enforcing that before he changed his tune.

From where I am sitting, it looks like you are tolerating it because you are allowing her to move closer to you and do things with her that do NOT say, "I will NOT tolerate you continuing your affair."

This is great advice by VOC here Turbo.  I agree wholeheartedly.  Read my latest post in my thread about the "healthy communication" boundary I have set and how it is working.  VOC is basically saying the same thing.

[turbo squash]

I am going to challenge this a bit. I see that you are having dinners with her and talking to her and being with her. She is still having an affair? There are a lot more things that one can do BEFORE moving towards divorce to say "I won't tolerate an affair."

You are absolutely right. I have been enabling her. Anything that has even a hint of romantic involvement stops. No more hand holding. No touching. No kissing. That is absolutely what I needed to be doing this whole time.

What do you think choosing you looks like? Are you looking for some kind of grand gesture? How will you know that she has chosen you? (Hint: Words don't count!)

She cuts off contact from him completely. I can look at the phone bill and not see his number at all. She lets me look at her phone again... .and all of the other things I mentioned before. She has to be in therapy as long as we are married. She has to be willing to accept responsibility for her actions.

I have spent a lot of years taking a lot of responsibility for the stuff that has gone wrong in our relationship. No matter how much responsibility I take and no matter how much I change and work for the better, there are things about my husband that aren't likely to change.

I appreciate you mentioning that. I recognize that I contributed but I KNOW that it was 100% her choice to have the affair and that it was 100% her choice to not be in therapy for the last 2-3 years. I am only saying that I recognize that I contributed to the situation. I know that it is not all my fault. I wouldn't even say that it is primarily my fault. I just realize that I contributed to it some.

My line in the sand is that she has to stay in therapy and work those techniques for the rest of her life. She has to accept how she let herself get sick and contributed in a massive way to all of this.

[MaroonLiquid]

My line in the sand is that she has to stay in therapy and work those techniques for the rest of her life. She has to accept how she let herself get sick and contributed in a massive way to all of this.

How would you quantify the metrics of this boundary?  Especially if things are going well for an extended period of time with no hiccups?

[turbo squash]

My line in the sand is that she has to stay in therapy and work those techniques for the rest of her life. She has to accept how she let herself get sick and contributed in a massive way to all of this.

How would you quantify the metrics of this boundary?  Especially if things are going well for an extended period of time with no hiccups?

That is a tough question. I would say to start, visiting with her therapist at least once/week until I am feeling like the symptoms are diminishing. After that, she could go down to once every two weeks or once every month, but I could never allow therapy to be less than once every month... .and that would only be acceptable if she was doing a lot better and hadn't had any hiccups for months.

[MaroonLiquid]

My line in the sand is that she has to stay in therapy and work those techniques for the rest of her life. She has to accept how she let herself get sick and contributed in a massive way to all of this.

How would you quantify the metrics of this boundary?  Especially if things are going well for an extended period of time with no hiccups?

That is a tough question. I would say to start, visiting with her therapist at least once/week until I am feeling like the symptoms are diminishing. After that, she could go down to once every two weeks or once every month, but I could never allow therapy to be less than once every month... .and that would only be acceptable if she was doing a lot better and hadn't had any hiccups for months.

That's a fair answer.  I'm a coach, so I use metrics and analytics in every decision I make (cut them or keep them).  The "effort" of the athlete is the most important thing.  Are they giving me a "perfect effort".  Nobody can be perfect, but their failure should not be because of their lack of effort.  Formflier helped me to think more along these lines also... .

[turbo squash]

That's a fair answer.  I'm a coach, so I use metrics and analytics in every decision I make (cut them or keep them).  The "effort" of the athlete is the most important thing.  Are they giving me a "perfect effort".  Nobody can be perfect, but their failure should not be because of their lack of effort.  Formflier helped me to think more along these lines also... .

This ^ x100.

In retrospect, I realize that she had little cries for help here and there. And when I mean little, I mean little. She said that she thought I should read a book about BPD. I wanted to, but I was hitting midterms during my junior year of engineering school... .aka I didn't have enough time to sleep or eat let alone learn about something else other than engineering.

Now I recognize that she was trying somewhat, but I didn't understand that she was asking for help. I still think that she should have tried more before the affair, but thinking about that doesn't help things right now.

She has said that she has been falling apart through all of this and that she misses me a lot. If this motivates her to try a lot harder to take care of her mental health, fantastic. But, like you said, if her failure comes from a lack of effort, I'm not okay with that and I will be out the door in a heartbeat.

[vortex of confusion]

My line in the sand is that she has to stay in therapy and work those techniques for the rest of her life. She has to accept how she let herself get sick and contributed in a massive way to all of this.

How would you quantify the metrics of this boundary?  Especially if things are going well for an extended period of time with no hiccups?

That is a tough question. I would say to start, visiting with her therapist at least once/week until I am feeling like the symptoms are diminishing. After that, she could go down to once every two weeks or once every month, but I could never allow therapy to be less than once every month... .and that would only be acceptable if she was doing a lot better and hadn't had any hiccups for months.

I had some discomfort when I read this.

The reason is that I question whether or not you are being realistic.

First, I don't think anybody deliberately lets themselves get sick. I think people with mental illness really do want to be normal. I have a sister that cycles. When she is in her good periods, she doesn't want to see a therapist or take drugs or do any of those things. She wants to be normal. She wants to feel normal. She usually crashes again. It is never deliberate on her part and I would not characterize it as letting herself get sick.

Also, I have seen too many instances of people going to therapy and doing everything they are supposed to do without marked improvement. What happens if she jumps through all of your hoops with regards to therapy and doesn't improve as quickly as you want?

Would it be possible to define the metrics in terms of behavior that you will or won't accept?

I am thinking something along the lines of:

-No affairs.

-No abuse.

-No contacting the affair partner.

I think pushing therapy is a really good idea. I am challenging you to think deeper and be more specific.

[an0ught]

My line in the sand is that she has to stay in therapy and work those techniques for the rest of her life. She has to accept how she let herself get sick and contributed in a massive way to all of this.

How would you quantify the metrics of this boundary?  Especially if things are going well for an extended period of time with no hiccups?

That is a tough question. I would say to start, visiting with her therapist at least once/week until I am feeling like the symptoms are diminishing. After that, she could go down to once every two weeks or once every month, but I could never allow therapy to be less than once every month... .and that would only be acceptable if she was doing a lot better and hadn't had any hiccups for months.

I had some discomfort when I read this.

Indeed. This is a plan for close monitoring and controlling her therapy. It requires constant judgment of her behavior by you. Not a path leading to two strong individuals but a path for two people focused on each other, trying to control each others behavior.

Progress through therapy is not a straight path. There will be set-backs. There will be out of control behavior, some of it hurtful.

So what are the deal breakers?

And how do you protect you yourself against behavior that is not a deal breaker but is still not acceptable?

And what behavior do you accept, behavior which is not o.k. but then nobody is perfect?

[turbo squash]

My line in the sand is that she has to stay in therapy and work those techniques for the rest of her life. She has to accept how she let herself get sick and contributed in a massive way to all of this.

How would you quantify the metrics of this boundary?  Especially if things are going well for an extended period of time with no hiccups?

That is a tough question. I would say to start, visiting with her therapist at least once/week until I am feeling like the symptoms are diminishing. After that, she could go down to once every two weeks or once every month, but I could never allow therapy to be less than once every month... .and that would only be acceptable if she was doing a lot better and hadn't had any hiccups for months.

I had some discomfort when I read this.

The reason is that I question whether or not you are being realistic.

First, I don't think anybody deliberately lets themselves get sick. I think people with mental illness really do want to be normal. I have a sister that cycles. When she is in her good periods, she doesn't want to see a therapist or take drugs or do any of those things. She wants to be normal. She wants to feel normal. She usually crashes again. It is never deliberate on her part and I would not characterize it as letting herself get sick.

Also, I have seen too many instances of people going to therapy and doing everything they are supposed to do without marked improvement. What happens if she jumps through all of your hoops with regards to therapy and doesn't improve as quickly as you want?

Would it be possible to define the metrics in terms of behavior that you will or won't accept?

I am thinking something along the lines of:

-No affairs.

-No abuse.

-No contacting the affair partner.

I think pushing therapy is a really good idea. I am challenging you to think deeper and be more specific.

I'm not going to lie, I have my own issues too. Two of my siblings are drug addicts. I think I have emotional abandonment issues that stem from my parents' emotional distance during my childhood. I don't blame my parents at all. They are only human and they did the best they could. Frankly, they did a fantastic job all things considered. Nevertheless, because the two siblings above me were drug addicts, I spent a lot of years not having my emotional needs met. My siblings were addicted and my parents were perpetually drained because of my siblings.

As I think about the things being said here, my actions, and the things my therapist has said, I can't help but think that I have abandonment issues too.

That is probably why I went after the physical and emotional contact again even though she had not decided that the affair was over.

I don't expect all of her symptoms to disappear. Some of the symptoms I actually like.

Those three behaviors that you mentioned are perfect though. Really, I could put up with some mistreatment for a while as long as there were no affairs and she did not contact the affair partner.

I said that I had issues before to reply to your comment about me blaming her. I said all of that to say this: the amount attachment that I develop to my romantic partners may be unhealthy.

Once I got married, I stopped checkling out other women. I stopped initiating conversations with women. If a woman started talking to me and we talked for more than 2 minutes, I would find a reason to mention my wife. Thoughout our entire marriage, I never entertained the thought of being with someone else. Every thought I had about the future had my wife in it.

Now that we are separated, I am in agony. When we were just moving forward with divorce and she said that she didn't have feelings for me, it was a lot simpler and easier. Now that she has said that she does have feelings for me and is trying to figure out whether or not she will be with me again, I am back to the agony and the depression.

When I allow myself to entertain the idea of a future with her I start thinking about everything we can do to fix it and get back to where we used to be, it crushes me when she isn't as dedicated to fixing it as I am.

Blaming her for letting her illness get out of hand probably isn't fair... .but it makes it easier to survive.

I guess you could say that I am having the most difficulty staying centered. When I had accepted that we were done, I was feeling good all of the certainty that I had in my life. Now that we may not be done, the uncertainty is proving very difficult for me to handle.

[an0ught]

You can not have certainty over what happens. You can have some degree of certainty over what you will do. Often we commit to outcome when commitment to process would be healthier considering the number of variables that are totally out of our control.

[turbo squash]

Progress through therapy is not a straight path. There will be set-backs. There will be out of control behavior, some of it hurtful.

So what are the deal breakers?

And how do you protect you yourself against behavior that is not a deal breaker but is still not acceptable?

And what behavior do you accept, behavior which is not o.k. but then nobody is perfect?

I can handle set-backs that aren't repeated affairs. I can handle hurt. As long as the trend is forwards, I am okay with set-backs.

Deal breakers? Everytime that question is asked, I feel a little different. I can tell that recently, she has been trying to come back to me. Yesterday, SHE said she wanted to do marriage counseling. That is a big step forward for her. Today, I messaged her, she didn't respond immediately, but she did say a little while later, "I got your message, but I am slammed at work right now. I'll get back to you about that later."

That was something that I had asked for. I wanted her to communicate with me and keep me up to date. I wanted her to tell me she couldn't talk rather than just not respond for eight hours. Her doing that shows me that she is listening to what I am saying and trying to come back.

She has also been calling me on the phone a lot more recently. This is a massive improvement. For several weeks there, she would never call and rarely pick up the phone when I called.

I guess what she is doing affects what I feel is acceptable. I can tell that she is reaching out to me more and her affair partner less. I can see this from how often she is meeting me now and from the phone records. When I consistently feel like she is trying to come back, I feel like there is a lot more that I can handle. When I don't feel like she is trying to come back, what I am willing to handle changes drastically. Maybe this is unhealthy?

Irritability/moodiness is something that I can easily accept. Yelling at me and not listening to me isn't a deal breaker, but isn't acceptable either.

I think that the only deal breaker is the affair not completely ending in the correct way (to ensure it doesn't start up again) very soon. How soon? I really can't say.

What do you mean by commitment to process?

[an0ught]

And how do you protect you yourself against behavior that is not a deal breaker but is still not acceptable?

And what behavior do you accept, behavior which is not o.k. but then nobody is perfect?

I can handle set-backs that aren't repeated affairs. I can handle hurt. As long as the trend is forwards, I am okay with set-backs.

You can not have certainty over what happens. You can have some degree of certainty over what you will do. Often we commit to outcome when commitment to process would be healthier considering the number of variables that are totally out of our control.

What do you mean by commitment to process?

There is a lot of focus on deal breakers in this thread and maybe it should be so. But then that is only one part of the story. There is other behavior we have to deal with. And what exactly is meant with "I can handle... ."? Suffer through it? Close eyes? Try to stop it once in a while when it gets too bad? Lack of respect starts way earlier than sleeping with another person. Boundaries are tools to ensure we are respected. They consist of rules for ourselves. Deal breaker rules are critical. But so are others. In some sense a complete set of boundaries gives us rules how to work though potentially escalating problems while protecting our values. Setting boundaries and executing them is a process... .

... .a process where we don't have control over the outcome but have control over our behavior. Letting go of outcome protects us e.g. from being manipulated or overextension of resources.

[vortex of confusion]

What do you mean by commitment to process?

I am going to share my interpretation and experience with commitment to process rather than commitment to the outcome.

When one is committed to the process, the focus on the final outcome is removed.

I spoke with my husband not too long ago. We were talking about how much better if feels when both of us are committed to individual growth rather than being committed to our relationship or being focused on the ultimate outcome.

It took me a long time to understand this. When I first started reaching out for help, I wondered how in the world any progress could be made if there was no commitment to the relationship. I wondered how in the world one could focus on the process without being anxious about whether or not this would lead to divorce. I was wanting some kind of guarantee that doing this work would lead to some kind of guarantee or assurance that our relationship would survive. The more work I do on myself, the less I am concerned with the outcome.

I listened to a podcast one time that said that in order for a relationship to survive, it is more important for both participants to commit to self growth and self improvement. People could commit to the relationship but not themselves. With my husband, I was told repeatedly to stop fretting about whether or not he was going to meetings or therapy. I was told repeatedly to stop fretting over what he is or isn't doing. That is on him, not me. The only thing that I should be focusing on is my values and how I will or won't allow him to treat me. If he is doing something that is unacceptable, then it is up to me to set a boundary to protect myself. Don't rely on him for anything. That is a difficult pill to swallow. For example, if he is having an affair and I don't want to be in a relationship with somebody that is doing that, then it is up to me to decide what boundaries to set that communicates, "I do not find that acceptable". Some people see divorce as the only way to communicate that. There are lots of other ways to communicate boundaries.

Learning my values and figuring out what boundaries I wanted to set and how to set them was a process. I couldn't expect overnight success. I have been on these boards for close to a year now. I am still figuring out what is important to me. I am still figuring out what I am okay with and what I am not okay with. My husband doesn't go to therapy that often because of financial issues. He is, however, attending his 12 step meeting. He is reading books. And, his behavior is changing dramatically. I can see that he is committed to working on himself. By looking at how he is treating me rather than a set behavior like attending therapy, it gives both of us more wiggle room. If he has a set back, it is easier to take because I haven't defined things too rigidly and I am not trying to micromanage his life.

[turbo squash]

There is a lot of focus on deal breakers in this thread and maybe it should be so. But then that is only one part of the story. There is other behavior we have to deal with. And what exactly is meant with "I can handle... ."? Suffer through it? Close eyes? Try to stop it once in a while when it gets too bad? Lack of respect starts way earlier than sleeping with another person. Boundaries are tools to ensure we are respected. They consist of rules for ourselves. Deal breaker rules are critical. But so are others. In some sense a complete set of boundaries gives us rules how to work though potentially escalating problems while protecting our values. Setting boundaries and executing them is a process... .

... .a process where we don't have control over the outcome but have control over our behavior. Letting go of outcome protects us e.g. from being manipulated or overextension of resources.

I feel like I can handle means that I can have an easy times doing the healthy things that I should do to help the marriage as long as I am seeing the progress.  For example, if she is yelling, I can get up, tell her calmly why I am walking out of the room, and then walk out of the room and wait for her to calm down and come to me.

You are definitely right about finding boundaries being a process. I feel like that is what I have been working on for the last couple of weeks and that the progress I am making is slow. The depression I often feel through all of this makes it more difficult to work on myself.

I guess what you're saying is that I should only focus on boundaries and stop focusing on what will happen, right?

Not going to lie, that is hard for me. Planning for the future is something I do constantly. When you don't know what your future may hold though, it is frustrating. I do need to let go of the outcome though. It is easier said than done.

I listened to a podcast one time that said that in order for a relationship to survive, it is more important for both participants to commit to self growth and self improvement.

You are absolutely right. I think that that was the feeling that I had behind me feeling like she has to be in therapy. If I am going to be in a relationship with her, she needs to be committed to working on herself. Frankly, neither of us have been working on ourselves very much over the last couple of years. We were just trying to do too much. We were always putting out fires and did not get the quiet moments of introspection that we needed to see problems and work on ourselves.

[vortex of confusion]

I feel like I can handle means that I can have an easy times doing the healthy things that I should do to help the marriage as long as I am seeing the progress.  For example, if she is yelling, I can get up, tell her calmly why I am walking out of the room, and then walk out of the room and wait for her to calm down and come to me.

Stop for a second! Can you clarify what you mean by "doing the healthy things that I should to do help the marriage as long as I am seeing the progress"?

If you don't see progress are you going to stop doing healthy things?

Sometimes, healthy things like setting boundaries and protecting yourself don't help the marriage because the other person doesn't take it well.

Walking out of the room when she is yelling isn't about the marriage. That is about YOU and protecting yourself from being yelled at by your spouse.

I guess what you're saying is that I should only focus on boundaries and stop focusing on what will happen, right?

Focusing too much on the final outcome can make setting boundaries difficult. The reason is that there are times when you try to set a boundary that the other person will react negatively. There will be an extinction outburst where their behavior gets worse. When their behavior gets worse, it is really easy to back pedal and stop enforcing the boundary out of fear that it will do irreparable damage to the relationship.

I think that is why people are trying to get you to define your values and what is or isn't acceptable. Like an0ught said, there is more to this than just the deal breakers. What other behaviors does your wife exhibit that are problematic? You have identified yelling as one of them and you have said something that you can do when she yells.

What are some other things along those same lines? I have found that the harder stuff to figure out is the small day to day stuff. It is things like how household tasks are handled. How are the finances handled? What do I do when I want his attention but he doesn't seem available? What do I do when he is pulling away? What do I do when he demands more of my attention than I want to give in a particular moment? How do I respond when he looks over my shoulder and reads my stuff and questions me about it? None of those things are deal breakers. They are things that start out as small annoyances but can easily build up over time because I thought I could deal with them because they didn't seem like that big of a deal.

All of the reading that I have done about marriage and relationships seem to indicate that it is soo much easier to work through a deal breaker like an affair if there isn't a lot of the little stuff to pile on it and compound it. The struggles that I have in my relationship right now aren't me dealing with the great big deal breaker type things. My struggles are over the thousands of little things that I didn't do anything about because I thought I could handle it.

Not going to lie, that is hard for me. Planning for the future is something I do constantly. When you don't know what your future may hold though, it is frustrating. I do need to let go of the outcome though. It is easier said than done.

It is way easier said than done! I have been where you are. There are times when I still slip back into that place where I am anxious about the future. There are still times when I will go back to fretting about the what ifs. . .It is a process. 

You are absolutely right. I think that that was the feeling that I had behind me feeling like she has to be in therapy. If I am going to be in a relationship with her, she needs to be committed to working on herself. Frankly, neither of us have been working on ourselves very much over the last couple of years. We were just trying to do too much. We were always putting out fires and did not get the quiet moments of introspection that we needed to see problems and work on ourselves.

You can't control what she does or doesn't do. All you can control is what YOU do. All you can control is how you react to what she does.

This works out better when you change the WE to an "I". 'I was always putting out fired and did not get the quiet moment of introspection that I needed to see the problems and work on myself. '

What can YOU do to give yourself quiet moments of introspection that you need to work on yourself?

[an0ught]

The last thing I would say is only boundaries. I'm saying there is more than b&w to boundaries. And there is more to the process than boundaries too. There is radical acceptance, there is validation there is mindfulness.

What is not there are shortcuts. At least no significamt ones. And if you believe you are making slow progress dig through the board. This stuff is hard. You need to shift perspective and modify long trained behavior. You need to plot a path with your partner. If you internalized what is all written in this thread in a month it would be a miracle.

[turbo squash]

Stop for a second! Can you clarify what you mean by "doing the healthy things that I should to do help the marriage as long as I am seeing the progress"?

If you don't see progress are you going to stop doing healthy things?

Sometimes, healthy things like setting boundaries and protecting yourself don't help the marriage because the other person doesn't take it well.

Walking out of the room when she is yelling isn't about the marriage. That is about YOU and protecting yourself from being yelled at by your spouse.

I was under the impression that doing the healthy thing for me was ultimately doing the healthy thing for the marriage as well, no? Even if it irritates her, walking out when she is mad immediately helps me and ultimately helps the marriage. Right?

Focusing too much on the final outcome can make setting boundaries difficult. The reason is that there are times when you try to set a boundary that the other person will react negatively. There will be an extinction outburst where their behavior gets worse. When their behavior gets worse, it is really easy to back pedal and stop enforcing the boundary out of fear that it will do irreparable damage to the relationship.

I think that is why people are trying to get you to define your values and what is or isn't acceptable. Like an0ught said, there is more to this than just the deal breakers. What other behaviors does your wife exhibit that are problematic? You have identified yelling as one of them and you have said something that you can do when she yells.

Dear lord this is true. Problematic? The massive push/pull that is still going on. Her love for me feels like the tides... .except each time the tide(her love) gets a little stronger. The day before yesterday she said that she wanted to do marriage counseling. Today, she got irritated when I wanted to meet to talk like she had asked me to last night. I told her that I loved her and that I was sorry and that I had forgotten that even though I wanted to work on the marriage, she didn't want to. She said that that wasn't fair. I said that she knew exactly what she needed to do to work on the marriage and that she knew that staying on the present course would end the marriage. Thus, by staying on the present course, she is choosing to end the marriage. That was 4 hours ago and she hasn't responded since.

Like I said, the extreme push/pull is problematic. She gets extremely defensive and it can be difficult to talk to her about something that she has done that bothers me. If she will hear me out, she usually gets extremely depressed and can't handle talking about it for very long.

What are some other things along those same lines? I have found that the harder stuff to figure out is the small day to day stuff. It is things like how household tasks are handled. How are the finances handled? What do I do when I want his attention but he doesn't seem available? What do I do when he is pulling away? What do I do when he demands more of my attention than I want to give in a particular moment? How do I respond when he looks over my shoulder and reads my stuff and questions me about it? None of those things are deal breakers. They are things that start out as small annoyances but can easily build up over time because I thought I could deal with them because they didn't seem like that big of a deal.

She also is bad with money. I'm always wanting to save and she is always wanting to spend. She will develop a big elaborate plan to allow us to save money... .and then there will be this dress that was on sale and only $50 that she just had to buy.

All of the reading that I have done about marriage and relationships seem to indicate that it is soo much easier to work through a deal breaker like an affair if there isn't a lot of the little stuff to pile on it and compound it. The struggles that I have in my relationship right now aren't me dealing with the great big deal breaker type things. My struggles are over the thousands of little things that I didn't do anything about because I thought I could handle it.

As I have thought back, there are definitely lots of little things that both of us were doing wrong. I realize that that would make it less likely for us to get back together and even though I'm not supposed to think about it, it is difficult when I've been feeling as depressed as I have been this last week.

You can't control what she does or doesn't do. All you can control is what YOU do. All you can control is how you react to what she does.

This works out better when you change the WE to an "I". 'I was always putting out fired and did not get the quiet moment of introspection that I needed to see the problems and work on myself. '

THIS. I realized this today. Throughout the last year, I was always saying that we needed to do less and that we were doing too much. I couldn't say exactly why we needed to do less, but I felt that that was the thing to do. She didn't listen. We kept the pace up. Too many problems festered and now we are where we are now.

What can YOU do to give yourself quiet moments of introspection that you need to work on yourself?

That is part of the problem. The way that I used to always do this was by riding my motorcycle. Mine is currently broken down though and I don't have the money to fix it.

Insert Quote

The last thing I would say is only boundaries. I'm saying there is more than b&w to boundaries. And there is more to the process than boundaries too. There is radical acceptance, there is validation there is mindfulness.

What is not there are shortcuts. At least no significamt ones. And if you believe you are making slow progress dig through the board. This stuff is hard. You need to shift perspective and modify long trained behavior. You need to plot a path with your partner. If you internalized what is all written in this thread in a month it would be a miracle.

Too true. I want to plot a path to make this all work out. She hasn't decided yet that she wants to work on our marriage though. That makes it really hard. I'm really trying to internalize something my therapist said two weeks ago: "This is going to take a long time." It is very true. I'm going to have to work my butt off for a long time before this massively improves.

[vortex of confusion]

I was under the impression that doing the healthy thing for me was ultimately doing the healthy thing for the marriage as well, no? Even if it irritates her, walking out when she is mad immediately helps me and ultimately helps the marriage. Right?

Doing what is healthy for you isn't always what is healthy for the marriage or the relationship. I am thinking about the fact that marriages require compromise and give and take. Sometimes, staying in the relationship requires more compromise than is healthy for you. Compromising might be good for the marriage but it isn't good for you after a certain point.

Does that make sense?

It may or may not eventually help the marriage. There is no way to predict whether or not it will help or hurt the marriage.

[an0ught]

Hello turbo squash

Too true. I want to plot a path to make this all work out.   She hasn't decided yet that she wants to work on our marriage though. That makes it really hard. I'm really trying to internalize something my therapist said two weeks ago: "This is going to take a long time." It is very true. I'm going to have to work my butt off for a long time before this massively improves.

there is no path you can plot through a minefield while hurricanes are blowing and the earth is shaking. You may have a plan for a path and the will to see it through but once you started the world looks vastly different. Note that this is different from having a vision of a path and a commitment to do one step after the other but only safe steps.

I'm a bit worried about you talking about your wife not committing to work on it while you consider working super hard on it. You can't compensate for your wife's work. She needs to do hers and you need to do yours.

[formflier]

You can't compensate for your wife's work. She needs to do hers and you need to do yours.

Yes... .thanks an0ught for putting into words what has been bugging me and I've been trying to figure out how to say about this thread.

There are a couple ideas/things here. 

Waiting on a pw a personality disorder to come around and decide to work on things doesn't work/isn't a good plan.

You trying to do all the work on the marriage for a long time... .doesn't work either.

However... you are the non.   You are the one that can regulate emotions better and has a clearer view of the world.

Therefore... .it is up to you to provide leadership for yourself... .and for the r/s. 

Note:  This is fair... .but... .it is... .

Your therapist is correct... .this will take a while and will be hard.  What good things in life come easy?

I see a period of personal growth coming up.  This is like going to the gym... .BIGTIME... .

So... it looks like you have a T... .and you are building a support system over here... .  You have a wife that you are still communicating with.  So... I'm thinking you have the groundwork for a good support system and a recipe for a better outcome.

Note:  I would keep this to yourself... .don't lay your gameplan out to your wife. 

Do you think you can commit to working on things for several months and then see where things stand... if there is improvement?  If there is improvement... .then that should embolden you to press forward.  If you get to a point where things have plateaued for several months in a row... with no improvement.  Then maybe you have found the limit of growth/improvement for right now.

How do you feel about reading all of this?

FF

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .