BPDFamily.com

So I've written (and posted here) my carefully drafted responses to my husband. It keeps coming down to him insisting that I did things I didn't do and that's why we can't be together even though he loves me. I use all the techniques from the lessons to affirm and S.E.T. and whatnot, and it continues. But his responses are coming more frequently and he seems to be running out of steam.

Let me be clear about what I'm looking for here. I would like to know it other nons have gone through this and how it tends to play out. Is he engaging me because he's trying to convince himself (my suspicion)? How is this best handled? It does seem like simple non-argumentative responses are most beneficial despite the fact that I so desperately want to "set him straight."

So I did tell him that I love him and miss him and look forward to him coming home. Don't tell me I shouldn't have said that. He's my husband and if I can never speak honestly with him, this fight for "us" has no meaning.

How do I respond? A simple "I understand that you feel . . . although my perspective of what happened is very different . . .?" Or do I get more in-depth? Here's my most recent message (other than the love you/miss you one) followed by his response (keep in mind he's Haitian and Kreyol is his first language, so read through that lens) with my commentary in brackets:

"[his name], I understand that you feel that I did those things, but I remember the story very differently. It is not beneficial for me to respond to the accusations because we simply seem to have had very different experiences and memories. However, I am unwilling to take more than half the responsibility for the trouble or for finding the solution. This is a situation we both entered into. Both of us share responsibility.

No marriage goes without trouble, and our troubles are not even the worst of troubles. The only thing that will keep us from being together is if we are unwilling to take the right action. I am willing, and I would like for you to take that step with me."

His response: "As you talking, it shows you want to prove something you didn't even thought about [I don't understand that statement]. All those steps I went behind them [I guess claiming he already tried to fix the marriage?]. I invited you to counseling [he actually refused counseling for months and even years until someone told him that he needs to try or the court will order it for him, and I went to both sessions he set up including one with him and one on my own] and you had a preference that I had to go to see pastor [Haitian pastor's name] or choice to leave your house [I said this when he came and said, "here's what's going to happen, I will stay here for 2 years and one day you'll come home and I'll just be gone" and I said, "no, you'll go to counseling with me or you'll get out now," which never happened]. I asked your mother to talk she said no she won't get her nose in your stuff [this is the first that I'm hearing that he asked my mentally unstable mother to council us? where would he get in his mind that is a good idea?]. I wrote on Facebook as you got some people involved they said I'm a fraud you have to report me [I told his friend that a couple of people were threatening to report him as a fraud for using me for a visa, and one of his friends went back and told him that I was asking about what to do about that and he uses it against me rather than seeing that I was trying to cover for him] as, and some of your family insulted me [my Mexican sister-in-law offered him tacos when he said he needed help but gave no details and she asked if he was hungry. He said she insulted him because he's not poor and he can buy his own tacos. Plus the 15 year-old niece who told him he should be nice to me]. Since June 12th you came at 1 am o'clock fighting me [he is stuck on this. I put my hand gently on his shoulder as I was trying to lay on the floor next to him, I never got physical or verbally aggressive at all] and sent pictures to some friends and family of mine said I beat you [bruises he left on my arms that night when he grabbed and shoved me] I left the house now you said come home you miss me? For who do you take me? As an imbecile? Okay worse or not I'm fighting to stay alive waiting for your plan [he has been convinced that I have a plan to destroy him] while I'm trying to protect myself. We can't be together even though I still love you."

So... .yeah

 

Big picture stuff here... .

I believe the "carefully crafted statements"... .or really any statement... where there is a hint of a different reality... .is triggering and invalidating him... .BIGTIME. 

For whatever reason... .THERE IS A BIG RAW NERVE THERE... .leave it alone... .  You didn't cause it... you aren't going to fix it... .so leave it alone.

Let him believe his reality... .

If he asks what you believe... .deflect it... .don't agree or disagree... .you have already gone down that road.

Last thought:  It's not that you "NEVER" will be able to say "I love you" to him... .

Right now (very different from NEVER)... .that's probably not a good idea... .

He (most likely) doesn't feel loved... .telling him that... .INVALIDATES HIM... .most likely.

 

Hang in there!

FF

And do what?

Ignore this? Respond? What?

Tell him, "I guess we'll have to see how the judge sees the evidence?"

It sounds like your husband has [severe] paranoia symptoms when he dysregulates. Whatever perspective he has now he likely believes to be the absolute truth. That's where the projected statements about not going to marriage counseling etc comes from.

I agree with FF that disagreeing with this POV is absolutely invalidating and making him push more. let him believe his current reality. Don't engage when provoked -- like FF says don't agree or disagree, just reflect it back.

I think this is crucial to everyone's safety right now. Do hang back, and hang in.

ptilda,

Do you think something or someone is going to lead him to a mental health assessment soon? It seems he may be pretty cornered right now--feeling that everyone is against him and in conspiracy.

Hope he gets help soon. 

Ptilda,

I agree with others on here... .that paranoia is probably the "root" of the issue here.  

Just so you know... .that is very likely my wife's "root" issue as well.  Before I understood the rules... .the lessons... .before I ever heard about BPD... .or PPD (paranoid personality disorder)... .we had HUGE battles about "reality"

I'm not trying to let her off the hook... .but I want to put myself on the hook for choosing to engage.

We fought about a secret family I had... .(we got married in our barn... .right under my wife's nose)

We fought about a secret child I had with another woman.  I had a paternity test set up to "prove" I was innocent... .and my wife deftly sidestepped to say she never believed the child was mine... .and that I was till having sex with the woman... .the test would prove nothing

The list of stories goes on... .and yes... .they make no sense... .it seemed perfectly natural and appropriate for me to convince her that there was no secret family... .but... my doing that did a lot of damage to the r/s... .A LOT!

When I still felt like I needed to respond to her... .I used STOP.

Sorry you feel that way...

That's your opinion

Ohhh

Perhaps you are right... .

That way I wasn't giving the silent treatment... .

Now... .I try to use active listening... .make sure I am looking at her... .participating... .but don't agree or disagree.

This morning she was telling me about how "they" didn't like it that I made my family wait... .and that in the future "they" would like me more if I stopped what I was doing and paid more attention to my family.

I think the last thing I said was "I hear what you are saying... ."  gave her a hug and a brief "peck" on the cheek... .and then we went on about our busy day of running errands.

I have no idea what incident she is talking about... .NONE... .zero... .zip... .but it was important enough (in her mind) to call me over to the bed... .and talk to me.  She was polite... .composed... .respectful... . so... .I listened and did the best I could.  I hope she "feels" that I care about her feelings... .and never once considers from my words that I "disagree" with her.

Our r/s is so much better than when I came here to bpdfamily.  One of the big things I had to learn was to not INVALIDATE.  I am still working on becoming a better an active validater.


KateCat and others on here can attest to my journey from trying to figure out how to convince her of my reality... .(kind of where you are now)... .to where I am now.  I still have a ways to go... .

I understand it feels weird to have these crazy notions out there... .YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FIX THE NOTIONS OF OTHERS... .

Silence is not agreement... .

It will get better... .but I also want you to understand that paranoia is deep seated... .really deep.  

Likelihood of my wife ever being completely cured... .is low.  Likelihood I can maintain the r/s in a way that I can have a good quality of life is high.!

I hope this helps...

FF

The only way I know of to help this get better... .is to stop fighting conspiracy... .let him relax and soothe himself... .and his worldview.

You are not responsible for soothing... .

FF

I have run into this, too. And I have fought it tooth and nail. Boyfriend re-writes history to justify some pretty ugly behavior. He makes claims that I did and said things I didn't do or say. Then explains to me that his actions ( cheating, lying, etc) were the result of my ( fabricated by him) behavior. I can verify that trying to fight this has led to where we are today.

For me, it's been nearly unbearable to see him do what he has done, I suffer the damage, and then when I have tried to sort it with him, I get told the whole mess is all my fault. Then I get "retaliated" against MORE for speaking up.

I am genuinely at a stand still. If not invalidating is a lot of the cure, then some of us are being left with having to accept the relationship can only continue under the implied conditions of the BPD that the non is the "bad one" and deserves the suffering the BPD is inflicting on them. The feelings of having justice... they have to be set aside?

Justice is for the courtroom... .

Grace, mercy and forgiveness are for relationships... .for things that have happened in the past.

Boundaries will protect you from future actions.

The future can be changed... .it is in YOUR power... .to do this... .

The past is over... .many of us have things in our r/s and past that are BAD... .VERY BAD... .sometimes we truly were victims... .sometimes we played a part... .

Ultimately... .it only matters to help you make good decisions about the future... .usually around boundaries... .

Justice is not a road map to success in a r/s...

FF

justice= he takes responsibility for his actions instead of projecting onto me.

I'm not looking to settle a score. It's hard to present myself for the relationship when boyfriend has done big damage, then projected onto me and now he is the judge and the jury who is handing down and enforcing the "sentence". Big punishment on me.

I am not engaging at all right now, as a result. It's where I am.

Absolutely.

I believe that through his journey, described here in this forum, formflier is "writing the book" on partnering with a person afflicted with a paranoid disorder.

That's a big statement for me to make.

However, just two days ago, on another mental health forum, a man stated that he had scoured the web high and low for any book or e-book written specifically for family members of someone with PPD. For my part, I've tried the same (though I don't claim mad electronic search skills) for advice on paranoid schizophrenia. Others followed his post, stating that they would be willing to contribute to the production of such an e-book.

No wonder we can't find "the book!" A signal characteristic of paranoid disorders is distrust of close family members. It's generally chronic, so the definition of "success story" has to be very specific.

I'll put my money on formflier. He is doing very innovative work.

Thank you all for your input. So I want to clarify. I know I won't be trying to clarify anything with him. However, Should I respond at all? Should I say, "You may be right that you tried all the necessary avenues"? Should I be affirming his effort in getting the therapist we went to? Is there something I can pull out of all of this to affirm him?

My thought is that there will soon be a hearing for our divorce. I plan to present to the judge my request to have required individual and couples counseling for a period of six months based on my belief that he is experiencing a range of mental trauma from his past as well as the transition here to the U.S. Since divorce will result in his deportation (it's so painful when he refers to this as my "plan" since I'm trying so hard to avoid what he's forcing), I feel that the judge would do well to take time making that decision to give the divorce. It sounds like the lawyer (his) and the clerk who returned my call at the judge's office both thought it was worth the effort for me to request that. This could provide the push into counseling and eventual therapy that he so desperately needs.

Justice = he projects his actions onto you... .

You don't accept the... .let the drop on the floor... or go somewhere else (as long as you don't own them... .you don't care where he puts them).

He becomes weary of trying to get you to take them... .

r/s dynamic is changed.

He may... .or may not take responsibility... .you... .and the rest of us here are most concerned that you don't take responsibility... .

FF

So do nothing?

Sure... .that is most likely better than INVALIDATING him.

I like to look at things as Good... .Better... .Best

Good:  Doing nothing

Better:  Maybe using STOP (explained above)

Best:  Listening... .asking about emotions... .actively validating emotions that he talks about. 


Last thought... .this doesn't mean that you have to listen to him blather on for eons about all of your sins against him.

Best to listen... .let him get out what he wants to say... .once... .  Maybe use STOP or active listening... .

"I'm here for you and want to understand you... .So you believe your problems are because xyz?"

(him) Yes... .and I know you did that on purpose... .

(you) How do you feel about this?

(him) Angry

(you) Anger is understandable in a situation like this... .

If he becomes abusive in talk or otherwise... .exit... .don't take bait.

FF

So this is the question. How do I do "best?" It's apparent that he holds the belief that he made every possible effort to make the relationship work. Doesn't it invalidate him to say, "I'm here for you?" Knowing my husband, he is offended when people offer help because he believes that implies that he is inept, stupid, poor, or as he says, "imbecile." Much of the trigger for the whole thing here is that he came to the U.S. from a male-dominant culture, and the circumstances necessitate that he is dependent on me for many things including finances, paperwork, cultural know-how, and even our home is one that I chose with furnishings I bought.

I think in order to get him to open up, I have to validate his manhood in a way that is culturally relevant to him while still being honest. Possibly pointing out that I appreciate how he has taken responsibility in his position as the head of our home to set up the counseling session, and that it was helpful for me to hear him express the things that hurt him (he doesn't like the word "angry," but uses the word "hurt"? Even possibly validating his willingness to reach out to my mother (even though it was part of an intended smear campaign he was on at the time and he went to EVERYONE to try to talk badly about me) in order to better understand my perspective? I don't know. I believe that being silent isn't the best, but as you can see, everything is a trigger for him. I have to treat this carefully.

I agree that being silent is not the best, but would you agree that it's better than further triggering your H?

Please don't confuse validation of emotions... .and complimenting characteristics of a person... .or things a person does.

I think this is best practice for you right now:


You may hear some disturbing things when you do this.  :'( You may need to take your time to process what you hear.

The "I'm here for you" continues to throw me off. I've said this before and it triggered him. Again, cultural differences must be taken into account.

I think the goal right now might just be to be a sympathetic and non-judgmental listener.

Well I sent the message but I re-read it afterwards and I don't think it was clear so I tried to clarify, but it still sounded weird. Hoping I don't make the problem worse when he reads it... .

"[his nickname], I'm here for you and want to understand you. Just so I am sure, you believe your problems are the result of things you feel I did to disrespect you?"

follow-up message:

"I'm sorry, I hit send before I finished the message so it's a little confusing to read I think. What I mean to ask is if you think the core of our problem is because you feel I was disrespectful to you? I hope the question is more clear."

This has to be the most unnatural feeling message I've sent to him since finding this forum. Yikes. Now I'm feeling stressed. There's so much there he could take wrong, but I didn't know how else to put it. Maybe it's not as bad as I think?

Disclaimer: Any thoughts I have arise from an impression that your husband is seriously mentally ill.

You're doing great work trying to help a troubled guy.

Can you try even a bit harder to let go of the idea of influencing his choices and his thoughts right now?

It's tough and unnatural to do so, for sure. And tiny choices of word and phrase probably will seem to impact him in big ways. But if you can keep foremost in your mind that he believes he is the target of a shadowy "plan" orchestrated by you, that may help you communicate.

I could tell you that, since French is my second language, I might be able to help you interpret some of the syntax he uses in messages of his you've posted here. But that line of thinking will draw you down a rabbit hole of frustration and confusion. (Remember that the offer of tacos by a kind in-law of yours was interpreted by him as an insult, and perhaps as part of a larger conspiracy against him.)

Instead, I think that over-interpreting words and signs is not helpful right now, as he is in the midst of a delusional crisis.

Aside from quietly listening to him, what can you do? You can try to slow down the divorce/dissolution action he's taken against you. But it may be good to consider the risks of doing that as well. If you involve the court in ordering counseling for the two of you, or if you attempt to have a guardian at litem appointed for him as a mentally incapacitated person needing representation in court, what will be his response?

These are tough, nearly impossible calls. Do you have a counselor / mental health professional of your own to advise you? That might be a powerful help at this time.

I  have been following along on this thread but have been reluctant to chime in.

I like the idea of sympathetic non judgmental listener.

Words I have used in the past that were effective

I am glad you told me that.

Thanks for explaining that again.  I know we've talked about it before but now I have more information and I understand things differently.

I  feel good that we are speaking again.  I appreciate you reaching out.

Thanks for letting me know what you think.

I try to keep things simple and very basic.

babyducks, Thank you! This is terrific.

I'm going to try and write a bigger post later today... .

For now... I suggest totally open ended questions... .

Look at the thing you sent above... .it "suggests" and answer... .or can be answered yes or no.  While this may be efficient... .it also may suggest a problem to him that he has forgotten.

Remember... .there is an overarching "mood"... .or "funk" about him.  There are also very specific "fantasies"... .that may be forgotten as quickly as they come up.

By arguing or asking a question... .you are "cementing" it

Let it pass!

FF

AAAAAAAND... .here it is:

Me: "[his nickname], I'm here for you and want to understand you. Just so I am sure, you believe your problems are the result of things you feel I did to disrespect you?"

Me: "I'm sorry, I hit send before I finished the message so it's a little confusing to read I think. What I mean to ask is if you think the core of our problem is because you feel I was disrespectful to you? I hope the question is more clear."

Him: "I didn't ask you any questions"

"I advanced them to sow some statements"

Me: "Can you explain what you mean by that?"

Him: "Why do you need expl"

"Now?"

Me: "So that I can understand"

Him: "Understand what?"

Me: "Understand your feelings and needs"

Him: "Ho ok"

"But now it doesn't matter cause I tried before"

Me: "I understand that you feel like you've tried and I want that effort to give you what you need which is why I want to seek to understand. Your efforts should be recognized and realized and that is my goal."

"So should I understand that you feel there was not an effort made to meet you in your attempts to fix things?"

Him: "Your goal cannot be that after all what you made me going through. I sincerely loved you and now honestly you can't be my wife anymore."

Me: "I understand you feel that I did not make an effort to understand you, but I see things very different and believe that I continue to show a very strong desire to understand your needs which is why my feeling was that speaking with Pastor Lidovick would be best for your benefit because  he can help me see the cultural differences so I can truly understand and respect you."

"I am sorry if my efforts were not made clear to you."

Him: "And ashamed, anything is gonna be for me as you said I started to build a career. It was a problem thinking I sell everything to come here. But now I think I can rebuild my life again. I want you to stop looking for proofs you did need to cooperate now. And it is not a feeling it is a fact, stop talking about cultural problem cause beating me is not. I was born to die I understand in life you might do everything to be happy if you don't recognize and accept the fact it won't be matter."

"Jones [my friend who met him outside our door when he first arrived, and he sees it as a huge insult]  is a cultural problem? To meet him first day I come to Minnesota in the house?"

"Belittling me was a cultural problem?"

"And more?"

"Please just stop"

Me: "I understand it seems to you that I was saying everything was a cultural problem. That was not my intention, only to show my perspective."

Him: "And deportation is not a fear for me Haiti is my country I didn't leave for wrong things I worked and I'm a pro. Keep talking about that with friends and family won't help in anything. You told me clearly that I'm here in the states because of you so if I don't want to bend under you beats and rules I'll be deported"

"I cannot be killed for papers then I would prefer to go back in my hell country. What I know even people won't ever believe me as you said I WAS HONEST LOVING YOU."

Me: "No problem, Jean, know that I am here to support you and I value your feelings. When you are ready to talk I will listen and seek to understand"

Him: "When I needed before that situation arrived here you were beating me ordered me throw me away like a garbage now stop trying to show your willingness to fix things"

Me: "[his nickname], I can imagine it is very difficult to have come here and then feel that your wife discarded and disrespected you."

Him: "You did more that that"

"I won't ask for divorce if it was only that"

Me: "Your love is very real to me. And so is the hurt and shame you express"

Him: "Cause you never honored me before"

Me: "You feel that there is no option except divorce, is that right?"

Him: "But I stayed still love you"

"Are you the judge?"

"You think I don't know what you trying to do?"

Me: "I cannot be the judge. That is why I want to understand you."

Him: ":)id you ever wrote me like that before?"

"Since you beat at 1 o'clock am"

"And I left"

"You'll be the Winner anyways"

"That's why I said no prob now I have to accept the fact"

"You're powerful"

"God bless you"

Me: "Your feelings and experiences are important [his name]. I understand you feel that I came to beat you, and that must have been frightening and shameful. However, my intention was only to be near my husband. I laid my hand gently on your arm for the desire to be near the man who I respect and love so much."

Him: "lol"

"I recorded it too"

"Even I know as I said they don't believe me"

"Then why after I left you sent those pictures and tell I bruised you?"

"You dared saying you miss me lol now when I left did you called to be sure I'm ok or where I am as I don't have anyone here?" [I sent him over 20 messages that he never responded to, and then had to resort to asking friends and family to check on his welfare. He had told me to leave him alone, so I didn't think calling to be sure he's ok was an option for me in his mind]

"Please stop"

"I could asked you to stop writing me but no'

Me: "Ok [his nickname]. No problem. I'm here when you're ready."

Him: "Right after you received the [divorce] papers"

"Ready for what?"

"Okay that's the last time you tell me that if you don't answer. As last time [he wants me to tell him what he should be ready for, although I already told him I'm waiting for when he's ready to talk]

"Ready for what?"

[I was in church at this point and unable to respond even if I did have something to say]

"By the way I have to receive a letter for my background study, my driver license, my college card because they don't want to forward them at the post office. Can you please when you receive them put the in one envelop drop them at the mail room for UPS at the apt so I would be able to get them?"

"Please if necessary!"

WHAT? After all that he wants me AGAIN to go out of my way and make sure he gets his mail? I already assured that he has his key so that he can get into the house and pick it up. I'm not going to play this stupid game. No. If he wants his stuff he can come get it.

Now you understand why I'm so confused about what to do next? No matter what I do, it's wrong!

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!1

Hi ptilda,

This is very very difficult stuff.   It can be incredibly frustrating.   You are right smack in the middle of it and you are emotionally involved and emotionally raw so this is hard.   Stressful.   I feel sympathy for the position you find yourself in.

Unfortunately you've been thrown into the deep end of the pool and the learning curve is pretty steep.  formflier, KateCat, and myself, we've been around here for a while, we've been at this for decent piece of time and the results we have seen have come slowly.   I understand the pressure you feel with the divorce and deportation on the horizon.   You can only do so much within those limitations.   

I read the exchange you posted.   There is a lot in there to try and sort through.   It's very intense, and very loaded.    Trying to keep this simple for now though I have two questions, if that is okay?

First, when your husband says things like "I cannot be killed for papers"  or "ordered me thrown away like garbage" or "prefer to go back to my hell country" is it his normal habit to use such high stakes language?  Does he typically describe things in life/death terms?   And can you tell us if feel that type of descriptive language is increasing or decreasing?     The reason I ask is I concur with KateCat upstream, he sounds as if he is in the middle of a delusional crisis and it would be probably be helpful to get some idea if it is waxing or waning.

I am growing very concerned by the high stakes nature of his conversation.  It's a red flag to me.   red-flag

My second question is that twice during the conversation he says "please stop now"  and "please stop".  What do you think he means by this?   What is he asking you to do?    That appears to me to be the only time he asks you a question that isn't rhetorical.   What do you make of that?

It must look like to you he is playing a stupid game.   And that must hurt like he! (sorry moderators).  He really isn't though.   His disordered mind is putting things together in ways that make sense to him.   

None of us here are experts.   Can you find the time and resources to connect with a mental health professional where you live?   The amount of stuff you are facing is pretty significant.  We can help but we can only put so much nuance into text on a screen. 

'ducks

 

Ptilda,

 

I want to join Babyducks in giving you support and a big hug... .the deep end analogy is very appropriate... .we are trying to toss you a life ring.

I realize you are trying to throw a life ring to your husband as well... .and we'll never know exactly what he is thinking... .but... .I think it is highly likely that he believes you are throwing bricks at him while he believes he is drowning in the deep end... .

(Babyducks... working your analogy for all it's worth!)

You know you are not... .and it seems natural to try and convince him you are not tossing bricks at him... .because you love him... .BUT... .right now... .I believe that the smartest thing that you can do for you... .and the relationship is to grab the life ring we are tossing (bpdfamily) and let your husband save himself.

He... .most likely... .is a better swimmer than you give him credit for... .

So... .for future communications... .please stay away from any effort (for now) to present your feelings or views on him or your actions.

We need to help you learn how to keep communications open from him... .without agreeing with his distorted world view.

Agreeing and listening and validating are very different things.

I'll end this post for now... .and hope to write more later today.

FF

While very painful, it may be worth considering that he already has rescuers set up to help him on his next step.

 

Ptilda,

Please head over to my new post and take a look at the "vibe" that I try to give off when having a conversation with my wife (remember... paranoia is core for her)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=281275.msg12657790#msg12657790

I hope this will help you formulate some strategy on how to communicate with  your hubby.

There is a lot of trial and error... .to this... .

FF

So I'm going to try to address all the questions/concerns expressed here.

He does use a lot of extreme life and death terms. Some of that is cultural. Haitians are quite dramatic in their speech. But some of it is just him. More than the speech, it's the attitude I'm concerned about. At times he'll be quite optimistic and hopeful. He has not been this at all in the past months since this madness started. He is assuming the worst and is making desperate decisions based on what he feels is his inevitable demise at my hands.

His "please stop" is what he says whenever I try to speak with him, although now he's initiating and I'm just responding. It usually means he wants me to stop writing, but this time he said, "I could asked you to stop writing me but no." It's like he wants me to keep responding (in fact I'm certain that he wants that), but answers other than what he finds acceptable are causing him turmoil.

I understand the idea of saying I should not give explanations, and I don't think I've been doing that. It would be helpful to me if specific things were pointed out rather than hearing "don't do this or that." As you have pointed out, you have more experience in this and I'm just learning. Some of the things you refer to in one way or another, I might not even see in that way.

Ironically, my husband is an excellent swimmer having grown up a few feet from the Caribbean. That being said, he has no plan. I know that for certain because his closest friends and family members keep in close contact with me and they keep me informed. In addition, I happen to know that he's shooting in the dark and hoping for the best. It is true that he can go back to Haiti and survive. But I'm not concerned with survival yet. We haven't gotten to that point.

Is there another woman? I hope so! There's not, but if there was, I'd be happy. The sooner he can encounter another American woman with his issues, the faster he'll see me as the good one hahaha!

So at this point the question is how to address the last part of the conversation (if at all). He wants me to tell him "ready for what?" I mean ready to speak with me. I mean ready to have a conversation. But of course I can't say that. So if I ignore his demand for me to answer that, I am conceding to his insistence that I have a master plan, etc.

Also, what do I do about the mail? That message came immediately after all the other messages, and he's done this many times. Right after he made all the fuss about having a police escort to move his things out, he contacted me and asked me to be sure to get his mail to him. It's like one thing he can continue to try to test me to see if I'll do it. Personally I have no desire to go through that effort to get his mail to him when I left his key for him for that express reason! It's a game. It's his way of pulling my strings to see if he still has control. . . or if he ever did.

I did read this post and find it encouraging to see you have worked through the real challenging times and are in a bit of a rhythm. I also responded to point out some of the differences. Your reactions are not only impossible (I can't hold his hand over Facebook) for me, but he would not respond well because his emotional needs are different (such as my reference to his love language being acts of kindness).

That being said, this is why I am stuck on the mail thing. By asking me to get his mail together in an envelope and leave it in the package room, he is asking if I still love him. How do I know that? Because every time he says/does something mean to me, he turns around and asks me to do something nice for him. It's not generally anything difficult or unreasonable, but it's his way of confirming that I am still there for him even after his outbursts. So without skipping a beat he goes from heaping accusations on me, to asking me to make sure he gets his mail (knowing I gave him his key back specifically for this reason).

I know this is an opportunity for me, but not sure how to approach it. I would appreciate input. . .

You know your husband best, but to an outsider this sounds like testing of your boundaries as a caretaker and a complete lack of such boundaries. These reactions can get out of hand because you've shown him time and time again that you'll meet his needs despite doing something "mean." It's a way for a pwBPD to feel like they have control and power which they always seek. You said it in your post that he'll turn right back around with accusations. There is already excellent advice here which is to try something different. Yes every problem has a solution, but sometimes you have to try every single one. Like being a non-judgemental listener.

I think if you look back through my story as posted here, you'll see that since becoming aware of BPD, I have absolutely NOT been available to "meet his needs" in ways like this. For example, last time he did this and demanded that I meet him alone at night to give him his key (the same day that he needed a police escort to help him move his things out because he said I might "beat him", I simply ignored his request for a bit (not too long to make him freak out), and made myself unavailable for the weekend telling him that I'll contact him when I'm back in town. And I returned his things to him on my own terms (which he didn't like, but I didn't ask permission OR forgiveness) without causing any unnecessary shame or drama for him.

So that's where my challenge is. I know it's a game. I want him to know that I still love him, but it's a never-ending game and I know that such knowledge is going to be a long time in coming for him. In the meantime, how do I address this? Point out that I will leave the mail on the counter and he can use his key to get in? Let him know that if it is important for him to come when I'm not here, he will need to schedule that with me? Should I bring up the idea of him getting a police escort again? I don't think they'll do it for mail since that can be handled in other ways. What about forwarding the mail to his lawyer?

Again, asking for ideas here.

I see two ways to go with this... .

One... confirm your love by doing it and ignoring his outbursts... .if you can walk away from the outbursts sooner... .not listen or participate in any way... .then... .this may be the way to go.

The reason I want you to walk away... .is there needs to be a connection in his mind to him saying something bad... .and you leave his presence (but without "reacting"

The last thing we want is for him to understand via actions or words that abusive outbursts are ok

So... .when I hear (I am paraphrasing)   "he is mean to me... and then asks me to do a loving thing... "... .I worry that you doing the loving thing confirms that the mean thing is OK to do to you

Option two:  When he has an outburst... .zero tolerance... .he gets nothing from you... .you walk away.   (again... don't lecture him or explain it a zillion times... .just remove yourself)  Possibly let him know you will be back in 10 minutes... or 20.

Then... when you are back... .if he asks about mail or another loving thing... probably fine to proceed since you have separated the good from the bad.

Thoughts?

FF

 

I don't like him having a key... .when there is a "need" for police escorts... .and tensions are high.

I'm much more of a fan of inviting him for coffee... .some light chit chat... .hand over mail... .go on about your day.

It's his mail... .let him solve this... .

You may be able to use this to get some good in person interactions with him... .but at end of day... .it's not your problem...

FF

I don't disagree with any of the above. Keep in mind, there is no physical interaction with us, either in person or voice-to-voice. I've done that intentionally. He can't speak with me without being a jerk, so I won't speak to him on the phone, only through messenger which allows me to think out my responses and take time to answer, and it also documents what he's saying and doing.

His whole thing right now is that he is afraid of me. I am a horrible person he was tricked into loving and coming to the U.S. for and giving his "life savings" and career to (in reality he gave me nothing, only enough to cover a portion of what I paid for him). He can't have coffee with me because that throws out his entire claim that I am a horrible, abusive, violent person. I suspect that the next time I see him will be at the divorce hearing and he will refuse to look at me as he has done for the past several months.

At this point, everything I do is grounds for scrutiny by him. So here's what I'm inclined to respond:

"Sorry for the delay in my answer, I was at church and I've been sick the past few days [true statements and shows that I'm not going to interrupt my life for his drama, but also acknowledges the reason I delayed in responding]. By "ready," I meant if you feel that you have more to share with me, I want you to know that I'm available to hear you [gives him an explanation for my use of "when you feel ready" without being too specific].

I'll let you know when the mail arrives. I still have the other items you received and will put them together [agreeable without yet telling him if I will do as he says since I haven't decided yet]."

Thoughts?

Here is my advice...

"Hey... .trying to clear up some possible confusion.  When I mentioned "ready"... my purpose was to let you know I am ready to chat if you have things to share with me... ."

"Some mail has arrived at our house (intentional use of "our".  I'm going to have a coffee break at (name the place) around (name the time).  My treat and you can get your mail."


Listen... .you are getting smart on lessons... .rules and all that.  He may not respond... .(don't chase)

He may show up and be abusive... .(excuse yourself for a couple minutes to the ladies restroom)... .come back... .if he is abusive again.  Let him know you look forward to chatting when you guys can communicate properly.  (don't accuse... just say your boundary).

You never know... .it might go better... .

If you stick with "carefully crafted texts"... .remember... .less is more...

FF

Knowing my husband (remember there's a language barrier here and I've learned to communicate with him in a way that does not generally get tangled in translation), he will have a problem with the word "confusion." To him, this is an accusation that I am saying HE is confused. Also, saying, ". . . if you have some things to share with me," will likely come off to him as me looking for him to make a confession of his guilt which he does not see. By sandwiching it between small talk about being at church/not feeling well, and my expression that I want to hear him, I feel that it will help to soften it. With that new light, I might rewrite as such:

"Sorry for the delay in my answer, I was at church and I've been sick the past few days. By "ready," I meant if you ever feel that you have more to talk about with me, I want you to know that I'm available to listen.

I'll let you know when your mail arrives. I still have the other items you received and will put them together."

There. Brief. To the point. Open. Affirming. Positive. Agreeable without being desperate. I'm asking him for nothing.

I am not sure about changing the last part to "I'll let you know when your mail arrives at our house. . ." Even though I like the idea of "our," and I do use that purposefully, he is quick and he'll catch it. He'll see it as a way for me to trap him into agreeing that it's his house too, which will imply that he is responsible to help me pay the bills (he is, but I don't feel like picking that fight just yet) and it ties our marriage back together which he is so desperate to sever in order to rid himself of the shame he feels.

Coffee is not going to happen. I am absolutely positive about that. Seeing me affects him in a very deep way and he is conflicted and wants to avoid that conflict. Right now, directing our conversation as much as possible to small-talk and practical issues is probably best, keeping emotional and "relationship" talk to a minimum.

It doesn't have to be coffee, I think the reason FF suggested that is that if you do meet in person, to do that in public. Both for safety and to have an alternative if he deregulates in person.

Yeah, I realize that it was a general face-to-face meeting. The point is that he won't meet me face-to-face. There will continue to be no in-person contact with him until I see him in court. Therefore there is no concern with him deregulating in person :)

Then... what is the harm is putting it out there... .you could be wrong.  Most likely you are not... .

I'll edit you other stuff down in a bit.

FF

***LONG POST ALERT!***

So from one extreme to the other, I had resolved to deal with my relationship with h only through court and through a long process of mind games. Suddenly I get this text (not Facebook message, for some reason):

Him: ":)o you owed any cash on the credit card my name is on?"

"And have problems to pay?"

[I had perfect credit when he got here, and added him on 2 credit cards, then charged all the things he wanted and that he insisted he would pay for when he got his retirement fund... .and when everything blew up he claimed I took his "life savings" and that he had given me all this money... .but it was untrue. Anyhow, now left by myself in a place I can't afford stuck in a 2-year lease signed with him and my niece who both left. . . that's the summary]

Me: "Yes"

Him: "How much it is?"

Me: "I'm trying to have them take you off so it doesn't affect your credit. I just can't afford it."

Him: "How much it is?"

Me: [continuing about why I didn't pay because of issues with rent]

Him: "How much it is?"

Me: [explanation of amount owed and that the purchases were from when he arrived and we were in Miami visiting his family]

Him: [asking about my food situation, which is not good at the moment as I am self-employed and it's been a tough month]

[then . . .] "Pray I'm looking for a job I'll promise I'll get it paid'

[well, now that was certainly unexpected and I am seeing the old him coming back . . . the real man is an amazingly generous and thoughtful person, which is why the BPD is so shocking]

Me: [going back to my guilt tendencies] "I don't want to stress you. I'm sorry."

[bla bla bla... .explanation, boring details about why I'm broke, etc... .]

Him: "You're not stressing me I just feel sad can't help you no matter what happened between us but I promise I'll help you when time come"

[bla bla bla]

Him: "I can give you 100$ if it will help"

Me: [bla bla about my niece moving out]

Him: "[my name] you won't listen to me but that kind of work you do is good but it has to be consistent for helping you" [yeah, like I didn't know . . . haha]

Me: "Thanks, I didn't want to tell you anything"

"baby,"

"I mean [his nickname]"

Him: "why?"

Me: [bla bla bla about my situation and then I go into the information about my graduate study which was interrupted because of his BPD and he wasn't available to help me with the studies and translation as planned . . . planned at his insistence, I might add]

[pointless stuff and him accusing me of being alone because I "planned alone" (i.e. didn't listen to him) and me saying it's not true, and him insisting he's right]

Me: "[his name]"

"stop"

"please"

Him: "want to sit down with you okay but if you [want?] I can find those papers I can translate them for you"

Me: [crossing messages and telling him I spent 3 years planning my life around him, so that was pretty unfair for him to make that accusation]

Him: "then Y YOU DID ALL THAT THINGS TO ME?"

Me: [crossing messages again] " It's not the papers, baby [this time it was intentional . . . haha]. You already finished translating those. I have to have the studies done but I need someone to read the text in Kreyol. And . . . [bla bla bla]"

Him: "I don't have time too but explain I'll try" [i.e. he's sacrificing for me . . . ok, I'll take it!]

Me: [addressing the accusations of all the things I supposedly did to him] "[his name] I can't get into that. I understand that you believe I mistreated you. However I had a very different experience. What I remember is very different. And as I said, I am unable and unwilling to take more than half the responsibility."

"Our marriage is OUR marriage. Together. You and me. And I need my partner to help me move forward. I miss you every day." [I know, I know... .don't judge me for saying that]

[Then in response to his offer for help] "Thank you. I'll see if I can get things together. Can we meet somewhere to discuss it? I can get the files and try to arrange for people to come [to participate in the study]."

Him: "I'm not talking about taht cause you'll never admit anything that's you and I know. Just need to help"

Me: [continuing about the study and number of participants, etc]

Him: "No I don't want to meet you"

[bla bla about study]

Me: "I don't know how else to do this. I have to show you and explain to you. And get the equipment to you."

[more about the study]

Him: "we can try doing it by corespondent"

Me: "ok"

[study-talk]

[more study talk]

Me: [trying once more] "We could try meeting at a public place. Like restaurant or coffee shop? Just a thought. [more study talk]"

Him: "We can't meet I don't want to say why again I have to protect my life even though I want to help you"

Me: "[his nickname] That is very painful for me that you continue to say your life is in danger because of me. I could never do that to you, and I never did. But ok. I respect your needs" [again, don't judge! haha]

Him: "I don't want to discuss that I said just want to help"

Me: "Ok. Thanks."

Him: "You didn't say anything about it 100$? And do want you to know I'll always be for you not as husband you weren't ready for that"

Me: "More ready than you know. I never got a chance."

"Again. I get no more than hald the responsibility."

"And we can fix this if you will lay down your pride and admit that you did bad things too." [bold, I know, and possibly a trigger, but he's "back" and is hearing at least parts of what I'm saying . . . I needed to take the chance to be honest]

"I can use the money, but I don't want you to use it against me like you did before."

Him: "lol can you tell what bad things I did?"

"Ok sorry to offer"

Me: "[his name]. We've been over this"

"Will you give the money without any conditions? You won't use it against me?

Him: "There's nothing to use against you I already accepted I'm the looser"

"Anyhow I'm the one who leave his land to come here"

Me: "[his name] Please stop. I said thanks"

Him: [still on his pity-party] "Get lower than I was in my country"

Me: "And I don't want that to be for no reason." [referring to him leaving his country to come]

Him: "how can you think about that?" [don't understand what he means here]

Me: [not the truth, but I needed to bail from the conversation and give time] "Have to teach."

"We'll continue later"

Him: "Ok bye I don't think we have to continue I just wanted to help cause you said"

"bye"

Me: "Thank you again. I'll let you know when we can talk about the study."



I was testing the waters a bit to see if we were going to be able to talk. I think I can continue to build on this, but he's clearly not ready to  face reality. It opens a door, however, for an ongoing partnership where we can be cordial and help each other with things like jobs and school and stuff. That's a start.

I know I said some stuff that is going to be looked at with some tisking, but it happens. I'm new at this, and I think I handled myself ok (not well, but ok), and didn't do any long-term damage.

H was testing the waters too. He wants to be part of my life but wants me to be very clear that he has to "protect his life" from whatever threat I present... .not sure what that is, but hopefully it will come out in court or at least point us towards court ordered counseling.

I've been spending my day off (not feeling well) looking into therapists and lawyers. . .

This stuff is so time consuming! But there is some light appearing at the end of the tunnel!.

 

This is a  good thing... .

On the good... better ... .best scale... .  You are probably around good... maybe towards better.

Please don't worry about him facing reality... .there are are lots of responses throughout your interaction where you are "pushing back" or stating your view... .

While not horrible... .I think this could have gone better... .if many of the things he said... .accused you of... .misstated... etc etc... you left hanging out there...

ff

After my invented "lesson" (about an hour and 15 minutes) I sent a quick message thanking him again and letting him know I'll keep him posted on the research once I speak with the professor. I also sent him a link for a job board so he can see that I'm trying to help him without trying to "suck him in."

Here's the resulting exchange:

Him: "Okay and remember it's not a fight I'm not going to use anything against you. If you wanted I told you do whatever you want with me as they told you to report me as Fraud cause I won't stay and live in this situation as can't go back I have nothing anymore."

"I'll always love you but we can't be together. It's a pity I see that too late to avoid the situation I'm living and painful"

"I'll help you when I can even it might work against me" [here he agrees to help]

"That's why now I accepted the fact I'm here because of you and whatever I do you're powerful I'll be anyhow the loser"

"If I had to use I'll try when I was in Haiti and sent money to you for helping as my wife" [reminding me of the very real sacrifices he made]

"I prefer to stop trying to help I'm sorry" [here he no longer is willing to help? I chose to ignore this contradiction]

Me: "There's no war here, [his name]. I know you want the best for me and I want the best for you."

"We can just do what we can do. No pressure."

"I won't ask you to give more than you feel comfortable with. I appreciate your help."

Him: "I don't have even the comfortable or affordable but it's sad hearing what I know and just wanted to help" [again playing the victim and saying I shouldn't have countered him on his accusations]

Me: "Thank you. It means a lot to me."

Him: "Welcome"


I think that's enough for the night... .probably for a couple of days at least... .

I cannot even express how much progress this is! We're so close to being recognizable as what we used to be! I just know it's a super delicate place and don't want to mess it up... .

Hi ptilda,

I am really glad you feel this is progress.   That's nice to hear.

I am also encouraged to hear that you invented a 'lesson' to interrupt the conversation when it was getting emotionally reactive.   Best thing you could have done.    |iiii

The accusations of who did what to whom remains red hot between you two.   And it probably will be red hot for a while.   This is not a misunderstanding that you can clear up with better communication.   It's not misinformation that can be explained away.  

My partner and I went through a bad patch in 2013,  the emotional reactivity between us reached epic proportions.   We both got very entrenched in our own positions.   I was not very good with letting her reality be her reality.   Eventually the tension between us flashed over into violence.    If I told you what was the comment that pushed us over the edge, you would likely be baffled because it was so innocuous.   I say pushed us, because I bear responsibility in the argument also.   It takes two.   The end result was I broke my hand and required surgery and 4 pins and a titanium rod to put it back together.  I would hate to see anything like that happen to you.



Good start,  I am going to tweak this a little... . Since this is the red hot potato and he has expressed the idea of leaving it alone, work with that.  how about

[i][his name] I understand you believe you I mistreated you.  It feels like a very different experience to me.

I acknowledged his feelings first.  He is in crisis right now.  He needs to be heard first.   This is about listening right now.  It won't be this way forever.  Your turn will come later.

I changed it to feels like a very different experience because it's harder to argue with ~feelings~.  The word 'however' negates the remainder of the sentence so I removed it.


This is tricky right here.   I agree memories differ.   I agree you ABSOLUTELY SHOULD TAKE NO MORE than half the responsibility.  Still as FF has said this is not the time to discuss it.   Not discussing it is not the same as accepting what he is saying.   Here is how I would tweak what you said.

It feels like we shouldn't get into that now, that it wouldn't be good for us.

Again I framed it as an I feel thing which is harder to argue with/about.  I put it lower down in the conversation thread so he didn't feel cut off from expressing his thoughts and I attached a little explanation so soften the comment.    


When he said I'm not talking about that cause... .I would have found something in that sentence to validate and said

You know you are probably right,  we should leave this topic alone for now, that's a good idea.

I would validate that because he might be trying to regulate he's own emotions and I would encourage that.

I hope you can see the subtle differences in what I tweaked in what you said.  Putting it all back together it looks like this.


I understand you believe I mistreated you.  It feels like a very different experience to me.  It feels like we shouldn't get into that now, that it wouldn't be good for us. "Our marriage is OUR marriage. Together. You and me. And I need my partner to help me move forward. I miss you every day."


as FF or someone said up stream, a lot of this is trial and error.


'ducks