He's engaging me, but . . .

[ptilda]

So I've written (and posted here) my carefully drafted responses to my husband. It keeps coming down to him insisting that I did things I didn't do and that's why we can't be together even though he loves me. I use all the techniques from the lessons to affirm and S.E.T. and whatnot, and it continues. But his responses are coming more frequently and he seems to be running out of steam.

Let me be clear about what I'm looking for here. I would like to know it other nons have gone through this and how it tends to play out. Is he engaging me because he's trying to convince himself (my suspicion)? How is this best handled? It does seem like simple non-argumentative responses are most beneficial despite the fact that I so desperately want to "set him straight."

So I did tell him that I love him and miss him and look forward to him coming home. Don't tell me I shouldn't have said that. He's my husband and if I can never speak honestly with him, this fight for "us" has no meaning.

How do I respond? A simple "I understand that you feel . . . although my perspective of what happened is very different . . .?" Or do I get more in-depth? Here's my most recent message (other than the love you/miss you one) followed by his response (keep in mind he's Haitian and Kreyol is his first language, so read through that lens) with my commentary in brackets:

"[his name], I understand that you feel that I did those things, but I remember the story very differently. It is not beneficial for me to respond to the accusations because we simply seem to have had very different experiences and memories. However, I am unwilling to take more than half the responsibility for the trouble or for finding the solution. This is a situation we both entered into. Both of us share responsibility.

No marriage goes without trouble, and our troubles are not even the worst of troubles. The only thing that will keep us from being together is if we are unwilling to take the right action. I am willing, and I would like for you to take that step with me."

His response: "As you talking, it shows you want to prove something you didn't even thought about [I don't understand that statement]. All those steps I went behind them [I guess claiming he already tried to fix the marriage?]. I invited you to counseling [he actually refused counseling for months and even years until someone told him that he needs to try or the court will order it for him, and I went to both sessions he set up including one with him and one on my own] and you had a preference that I had to go to see pastor [Haitian pastor's name] or choice to leave your house [I said this when he came and said, "here's what's going to happen, I will stay here for 2 years and one day you'll come home and I'll just be gone" and I said, "no, you'll go to counseling with me or you'll get out now," which never happened]. I asked your mother to talk she said no she won't get her nose in your stuff [this is the first that I'm hearing that he asked my mentally unstable mother to council us? where would he get in his mind that is a good idea?]. I wrote on Facebook as you got some people involved they said I'm a fraud you have to report me [I told his friend that a couple of people were threatening to report him as a fraud for using me for a visa, and one of his friends went back and told him that I was asking about what to do about that and he uses it against me rather than seeing that I was trying to cover for him] as, and some of your family insulted me [my Mexican sister-in-law offered him tacos when he said he needed help but gave no details and she asked if he was hungry. He said she insulted him because he's not poor and he can buy his own tacos. Plus the 15 year-old niece who told him he should be nice to me]. Since June 12th you came at 1 am o'clock fighting me [he is stuck on this. I put my hand gently on his shoulder as I was trying to lay on the floor next to him, I never got physical or verbally aggressive at all] and sent pictures to some friends and family of mine said I beat you [bruises he left on my arms that night when he grabbed and shoved me] I left the house now you said come home you miss me? For who do you take me? As an imbecile? Okay worse or not I'm fighting to stay alive waiting for your plan [he has been convinced that I have a plan to destroy him] while I'm trying to protect myself. We can't be together even though I still love you."

So... .yeah

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Big picture stuff here... .

I believe the "carefully crafted statements"... .or really any statement... where there is a hint of a different reality... .is triggering and invalidating him... .BIGTIME. 

For whatever reason... .THERE IS A BIG RAW NERVE THERE... .leave it alone... .  You didn't cause it... you aren't going to fix it... .so leave it alone.

Let him believe his reality... .

If he asks what you believe... .deflect it... .don't agree or disagree... .you have already gone down that road.

Last thought:  It's not that you "NEVER" will be able to say "I love you" to him... .

Right now (very different from NEVER)... .that's probably not a good idea... .

He (most likely) doesn't feel loved... .telling him that... .INVALIDATES HIM... .most likely.

 

Hang in there!

FF

[ptilda]

Big picture stuff here... .

I believe the "carefully crafted statements"... .or really any statement... where there is a hint of a different reality... .is triggering and invalidating him... .BIGTIME. 

For whatever reason... .THERE IS A BIG RAW NERVE THERE... .leave it alone... .  You didn't cause it... you aren't going to fix it... .so leave it alone.

Let him believe his reality... .

If he asks what you believe... .deflect it... .don't agree or disagree... .you have already gone down that road.

Last thought:  It's not that you "NEVER" will be able to say "I love you" to him... .

Right now (very different from NEVER)... .that's probably not a good idea... .

He (most likely) doesn't feel loved... .telling him that... .INVALIDATES HIM... .most likely.

 

Hang in there!

FF

And do what?

Ignore this? Respond? What?

Tell him, "I guess we'll have to see how the judge sees the evidence?"

[rotiroti]

It sounds like your husband has [severe] paranoia symptoms when he dysregulates. Whatever perspective he has now he likely believes to be the absolute truth. That's where the projected statements about not going to marriage counseling etc comes from.

I agree with FF that disagreeing with this POV is absolutely invalidating and making him push more. let him believe his current reality. Don't engage when provoked -- like FF says don't agree or disagree, just reflect it back.

[KateCat]

Let him believe his reality... .

If he asks what you believe... .deflect it... .don't agree or disagree... .you have already gone down that road.

Last thought:  It's not that you "NEVER" will be able to say "I love you" to him... .

Right now (very different from NEVER)... .that's probably not a good idea... .

He (most likely) doesn't feel loved... .telling him that... .INVALIDATES HIM... .most likely.

 

FF

I think this is crucial to everyone's safety right now. Do hang back, and hang in.

[KateCat]

ptilda,

Do you think something or someone is going to lead him to a mental health assessment soon? It seems he may be pretty cornered right now--feeling that everyone is against him and in conspiracy.

Hope he gets help soon. 

[formflier]

And do what?

Ignore this? Respond? What?

Tell him, "I guess we'll have to see how the judge sees the evidence?"

Ptilda,

I agree with others on here... .that paranoia is probably the "root" of the issue here.  

Just so you know... .that is very likely my wife's "root" issue as well.  Before I understood the rules... .the lessons... .before I ever heard about BPD... .or PPD (paranoid personality disorder)... .we had HUGE battles about "reality"

I'm not trying to let her off the hook... .but I want to put myself on the hook for choosing to engage.

We fought about a secret family I had... .(we got married in our barn... .right under my wife's nose)

We fought about a secret child I had with another woman.  I had a paternity test set up to "prove" I was innocent... .and my wife deftly sidestepped to say she never believed the child was mine... .and that I was till having sex with the woman... .the test would prove nothing

The list of stories goes on... .and yes... .they make no sense... .it seemed perfectly natural and appropriate for me to convince her that there was no secret family... .but... my doing that did a lot of damage to the r/s... .A LOT!

When I still felt like I needed to respond to her... .I used STOP.

Sorry you feel that way...

That's your opinion

Ohhh

Perhaps you are right... .

That way I wasn't giving the silent treatment... .

Now... .I try to use active listening... .make sure I am looking at her... .participating... .but don't agree or disagree.

This morning she was telling me about how "they" didn't like it that I made my family wait... .and that in the future "they" would like me more if I stopped what I was doing and paid more attention to my family.

I think the last thing I said was "I hear what you are saying... ."  gave her a hug and a brief "peck" on the cheek... .and then we went on about our busy day of running errands.

I have no idea what incident she is talking about... .NONE... .zero... .zip... .but it was important enough (in her mind) to call me over to the bed... .and talk to me.  She was polite... .composed... .respectful... . so... .I listened and did the best I could.  I hope she "feels" that I care about her feelings... .and never once considers from my words that I "disagree" with her.

Our r/s is so much better than when I came here to bpdfamily.  One of the big things I had to learn was to not INVALIDATE.  I am still working on becoming a better an active validater.


KateCat and others on here can attest to my journey from trying to figure out how to convince her of my reality... .(kind of where you are now)... .to where I am now.  I still have a ways to go... .

I understand it feels weird to have these crazy notions out there... .YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FIX THE NOTIONS OF OTHERS... .

Silence is not agreement... .

It will get better... .but I also want you to understand that paranoia is deep seated... .really deep.  

Likelihood of my wife ever being completely cured... .is low.  Likelihood I can maintain the r/s in a way that I can have a good quality of life is high.!

I hope this helps...

FF

[formflier]

feeling that everyone is against him and in conspiracy.

The only way I know of to help this get better... .is to stop fighting conspiracy... .let him relax and soothe himself... .and his worldview.

You are not responsible for soothing... .

FF

[Daniell85]

I have run into this, too. And I have fought it tooth and nail. Boyfriend re-writes history to justify some pretty ugly behavior. He makes claims that I did and said things I didn't do or say. Then explains to me that his actions ( cheating, lying, etc) were the result of my ( fabricated by him) behavior. I can verify that trying to fight this has led to where we are today.

For me, it's been nearly unbearable to see him do what he has done, I suffer the damage, and then when I have tried to sort it with him, I get told the whole mess is all my fault. Then I get "retaliated" against MORE for speaking up.

I am genuinely at a stand still. If not invalidating is a lot of the cure, then some of us are being left with having to accept the relationship can only continue under the implied conditions of the BPD that the non is the "bad one" and deserves the suffering the BPD is inflicting on them. The feelings of having justice... they have to be set aside?

[formflier]

The feelings of having justice... they have to be set aside?

Justice is for the courtroom... .

Grace, mercy and forgiveness are for relationships... .for things that have happened in the past.

Boundaries will protect you from future actions.

The future can be changed... .it is in YOUR power... .to do this... .

The past is over... .many of us have things in our r/s and past that are BAD... .VERY BAD... .sometimes we truly were victims... .sometimes we played a part... .

Ultimately... .it only matters to help you make good decisions about the future... .usually around boundaries... .

Justice is not a road map to success in a r/s...

FF

[Daniell85]

justice= he takes responsibility for his actions instead of projecting onto me.

I'm not looking to settle a score. It's hard to present myself for the relationship when boyfriend has done big damage, then projected onto me and now he is the judge and the jury who is handing down and enforcing the "sentence". Big punishment on me.

I am not engaging at all right now, as a result. It's where I am.

[KateCat]

KateCat and others on here can attest to my journey from trying to figure out how to convince her of my reality

Absolutely.

I believe that through his journey, described here in this forum, formflier is "writing the book" on partnering with a person afflicted with a paranoid disorder.

That's a big statement for me to make.

However, just two days ago, on another mental health forum, a man stated that he had scoured the web high and low for any book or e-book written specifically for family members of someone with PPD. For my part, I've tried the same (though I don't claim mad electronic search skills) for advice on paranoid schizophrenia. Others followed his post, stating that they would be willing to contribute to the production of such an e-book.

No wonder we can't find "the book!" A signal characteristic of paranoid disorders is distrust of close family members. It's generally chronic, so the definition of "success story" has to be very specific.

I'll put my money on formflier. He is doing very innovative work.

[ptilda]

Thank you all for your input. So I want to clarify. I know I won't be trying to clarify anything with him. However, Should I respond at all? Should I say, "You may be right that you tried all the necessary avenues"? Should I be affirming his effort in getting the therapist we went to? Is there something I can pull out of all of this to affirm him?

My thought is that there will soon be a hearing for our divorce. I plan to present to the judge my request to have required individual and couples counseling for a period of six months based on my belief that he is experiencing a range of mental trauma from his past as well as the transition here to the U.S. Since divorce will result in his deportation (it's so painful when he refers to this as my "plan" since I'm trying so hard to avoid what he's forcing), I feel that the judge would do well to take time making that decision to give the divorce. It sounds like the lawyer (his) and the clerk who returned my call at the judge's office both thought it was worth the effort for me to request that. This could provide the push into counseling and eventual therapy that he so desperately needs.

[formflier]

justice= he takes responsibility for his actions instead of projecting onto me.

Justice = he projects his actions onto you... .

You don't accept the... .let the drop on the floor... or go somewhere else (as long as you don't own them... .you don't care where he puts them).

He becomes weary of trying to get you to take them... .

r/s dynamic is changed.

He may... .or may not take responsibility... .you... .and the rest of us here are most concerned that you don't take responsibility... .

FF

[ptilda]

So do nothing?

[formflier]

So do nothing?

Sure... .that is most likely better than INVALIDATING him.

I like to look at things as Good... .Better... .Best

Good:  Doing nothing

Better:  Maybe using STOP (explained above)

Best:  Listening... .asking about emotions... .actively validating emotions that he talks about. 


Last thought... .this doesn't mean that you have to listen to him blather on for eons about all of your sins against him.

Best to listen... .let him get out what he wants to say... .once... .  Maybe use STOP or active listening... .

"I'm here for you and want to understand you... .So you believe your problems are because xyz?"

(him) Yes... .and I know you did that on purpose... .

(you) How do you feel about this?

(him) Angry

(you) Anger is understandable in a situation like this... .

If he becomes abusive in talk or otherwise... .exit... .don't take bait.

FF

[ptilda]

So do nothing?

Sure... .that is most likely better than INVALIDATING him.

I like to look at things as Good... .Better... .Best

Good:  Doing nothing

Better:  Maybe using STOP (explained above)

Best:  Listening... .asking about emotions... .actively validating emotions that he talks about. 


Last thought... .this doesn't mean that you have to listen to him blather on for eons about all of your sins against him.

Best to listen... .let him get out what he wants to say... .once... .  Maybe use STOP or active listening... .

"I'm here for you and want to understand you... .So you believe your problems are because xyz?"

(him) Yes... .and I know you did that on purpose... .

(you) How do you feel about this?

(him) Angry

(you) Anger is understandable in a situation like this... .

If he becomes abusive in talk or otherwise... .exit... .don't take bait.

FF

So this is the question. How do I do "best?" It's apparent that he holds the belief that he made every possible effort to make the relationship work. Doesn't it invalidate him to say, "I'm here for you?" Knowing my husband, he is offended when people offer help because he believes that implies that he is inept, stupid, poor, or as he says, "imbecile." Much of the trigger for the whole thing here is that he came to the U.S. from a male-dominant culture, and the circumstances necessitate that he is dependent on me for many things including finances, paperwork, cultural know-how, and even our home is one that I chose with furnishings I bought.

I think in order to get him to open up, I have to validate his manhood in a way that is culturally relevant to him while still being honest. Possibly pointing out that I appreciate how he has taken responsibility in his position as the head of our home to set up the counseling session, and that it was helpful for me to hear him express the things that hurt him (he doesn't like the word "angry," but uses the word "hurt"? Even possibly validating his willingness to reach out to my mother (even though it was part of an intended smear campaign he was on at the time and he went to EVERYONE to try to talk badly about me) in order to better understand my perspective? I don't know. I believe that being silent isn't the best, but as you can see, everything is a trigger for him. I have to treat this carefully.

[rotiroti]

I agree that being silent is not the best, but would you agree that it's better than further triggering your H?

[formflier]

I think in order to get him to open up, I have to validate his manhood in 

Please don't confuse validation of emotions... .and complimenting characteristics of a person... .or things a person does.

[KateCat]

I think this is best practice for you right now:

"I'm here for you and want to understand you... .So you believe your problems are because xyz?"

(him) Yes... .and I know you did that on purpose... .

(you) How do you feel about this?

(him) Angry

(you) Anger is understandable in a situation like this... .

You may hear some disturbing things when you do this.  :'( You may need to take your time to process what you hear.

[ptilda]

I think this is best practice for you right now:

"I'm here for you and want to understand you... .So you believe your problems are because xyz?"

(him) Yes... .and I know you did that on purpose... .

(you) How do you feel about this?

(him) Angry

(you) Anger is understandable in a situation like this... .

You may hear some disturbing things when you do this.  :'( You may need to take your time to process what you hear.

The "I'm here for you" continues to throw me off. I've said this before and it triggered him. Again, cultural differences must be taken into account.

[KateCat]

I think the goal right now might just be to be a sympathetic and non-judgmental listener.

[ptilda]

Well I sent the message but I re-read it afterwards and I don't think it was clear so I tried to clarify, but it still sounded weird. Hoping I don't make the problem worse when he reads it... .

"[his nickname], I'm here for you and want to understand you. Just so I am sure, you believe your problems are the result of things you feel I did to disrespect you?"

follow-up message:

"I'm sorry, I hit send before I finished the message so it's a little confusing to read I think. What I mean to ask is if you think the core of our problem is because you feel I was disrespectful to you? I hope the question is more clear."

This has to be the most unnatural feeling message I've sent to him since finding this forum. Yikes. Now I'm feeling stressed. There's so much there he could take wrong, but I didn't know how else to put it. Maybe it's not as bad as I think?

[KateCat]

Disclaimer: Any thoughts I have arise from an impression that your husband is seriously mentally ill.

You're doing great work trying to help a troubled guy.

Can you try even a bit harder to let go of the idea of influencing his choices and his thoughts right now?

It's tough and unnatural to do so, for sure. And tiny choices of word and phrase probably will seem to impact him in big ways. But if you can keep foremost in your mind that he believes he is the target of a shadowy "plan" orchestrated by you, that may help you communicate.

I could tell you that, since French is my second language, I might be able to help you interpret some of the syntax he uses in messages of his you've posted here. But that line of thinking will draw you down a rabbit hole of frustration and confusion. (Remember that the offer of tacos by a kind in-law of yours was interpreted by him as an insult, and perhaps as part of a larger conspiracy against him.)

Instead, I think that over-interpreting words and signs is not helpful right now, as he is in the midst of a delusional crisis.

Aside from quietly listening to him, what can you do? You can try to slow down the divorce/dissolution action he's taken against you. But it may be good to consider the risks of doing that as well. If you involve the court in ordering counseling for the two of you, or if you attempt to have a guardian at litem appointed for him as a mentally incapacitated person needing representation in court, what will be his response?

These are tough, nearly impossible calls. Do you have a counselor / mental health professional of your own to advise you? That might be a powerful help at this time.

[babyducks]

I think the goal right now might just be to be a sympathetic and non-judgmental listener.

I  have been following along on this thread but have been reluctant to chime in.

I like the idea of sympathetic non judgmental listener.

Words I have used in the past that were effective

I am glad you told me that.

Thanks for explaining that again.  I know we've talked about it before but now I have more information and I understand things differently.

I  feel good that we are speaking again.  I appreciate you reaching out.

Thanks for letting me know what you think.

I try to keep things simple and very basic.

[KateCat]

Words I have used in the past that were effective

I am glad you told me that.

Thanks for explaining that again.  I know we've talked about it before but now I have more information and I understand things differently.

I  feel good that we are speaking again.  I appreciate you reaching out.

Thanks for letting me know what you think.

I try to keep things simple and very basic.

babyducks, Thank you! This is terrific.

[formflier]

"I'm sorry, I hit send before I finished the message so it's a little confusing to read I think. What I mean to ask is if you think the core of our problem is because you feel I was disrespectful to you? I hope the question is more clear."

I'm going to try and write a bigger post later today... .

For now... I suggest totally open ended questions... .

Look at the thing you sent above... .it "suggests" and answer... .or can be answered yes or no.  While this may be efficient... .it also may suggest a problem to him that he has forgotten.

Remember... .there is an overarching "mood"... .or "funk" about him.  There are also very specific "fantasies"... .that may be forgotten as quickly as they come up.

By arguing or asking a question... .you are "cementing" it

Let it pass!

FF

[ptilda]

AAAAAAAND... .here it is:

Me: "[his nickname], I'm here for you and want to understand you. Just so I am sure, you believe your problems are the result of things you feel I did to disrespect you?"

Me: "I'm sorry, I hit send before I finished the message so it's a little confusing to read I think. What I mean to ask is if you think the core of our problem is because you feel I was disrespectful to you? I hope the question is more clear."

Him: "I didn't ask you any questions"

"I advanced them to sow some statements"

Me: "Can you explain what you mean by that?"

Him: "Why do you need expl"

"Now?"

Me: "So that I can understand"

Him: "Understand what?"

Me: "Understand your feelings and needs"

Him: "Ho ok"

"But now it doesn't matter cause I tried before"

Me: "I understand that you feel like you've tried and I want that effort to give you what you need which is why I want to seek to understand. Your efforts should be recognized and realized and that is my goal."

"So should I understand that you feel there was not an effort made to meet you in your attempts to fix things?"

Him: "Your goal cannot be that after all what you made me going through. I sincerely loved you and now honestly you can't be my wife anymore."

Me: "I understand you feel that I did not make an effort to understand you, but I see things very different and believe that I continue to show a very strong desire to understand your needs which is why my feeling was that speaking with Pastor Lidovick would be best for your benefit because  he can help me see the cultural differences so I can truly understand and respect you."

"I am sorry if my efforts were not made clear to you."

Him: "And ashamed, anything is gonna be for me as you said I started to build a career. It was a problem thinking I sell everything to come here. But now I think I can rebuild my life again. I want you to stop looking for proofs you did need to cooperate now. And it is not a feeling it is a fact, stop talking about cultural problem cause beating me is not. I was born to die I understand in life you might do everything to be happy if you don't recognize and accept the fact it won't be matter."

"Jones [my friend who met him outside our door when he first arrived, and he sees it as a huge insult]  is a cultural problem? To meet him first day I come to Minnesota in the house?"

"Belittling me was a cultural problem?"

"And more?"

"Please just stop"

Me: "I understand it seems to you that I was saying everything was a cultural problem. That was not my intention, only to show my perspective."

Him: "And deportation is not a fear for me Haiti is my country I didn't leave for wrong things I worked and I'm a pro. Keep talking about that with friends and family won't help in anything. You told me clearly that I'm here in the states because of you so if I don't want to bend under you beats and rules I'll be deported"

"I cannot be killed for papers then I would prefer to go back in my hell country. What I know even people won't ever believe me as you said I WAS HONEST LOVING YOU."

Me: "No problem, Jean, know that I am here to support you and I value your feelings. When you are ready to talk I will listen and seek to understand"

Him: "When I needed before that situation arrived here you were beating me ordered me throw me away like a garbage now stop trying to show your willingness to fix things"

Me: "[his nickname], I can imagine it is very difficult to have come here and then feel that your wife discarded and disrespected you."

Him: "You did more that that"

"I won't ask for divorce if it was only that"

Me: "Your love is very real to me. And so is the hurt and shame you express"

Him: "Cause you never honored me before"

Me: "You feel that there is no option except divorce, is that right?"

Him: "But I stayed still love you"

"Are you the judge?"

"You think I don't know what you trying to do?"

Me: "I cannot be the judge. That is why I want to understand you."

Him: ":)id you ever wrote me like that before?"

"Since you beat at 1 o'clock am"

"And I left"

"You'll be the Winner anyways"

"That's why I said no prob now I have to accept the fact"

"You're powerful"

"God bless you"

Me: "Your feelings and experiences are important [his name]. I understand you feel that I came to beat you, and that must have been frightening and shameful. However, my intention was only to be near my husband. I laid my hand gently on your arm for the desire to be near the man who I respect and love so much."

Him: ""

"I recorded it too"

"Even I know as I said they don't believe me"

"Then why after I left you sent those pictures and tell I bruised you?"

"You dared saying you miss me now when I left did you called to be sure I'm ok or where I am as I don't have anyone here?" [I sent him over 20 messages that he never responded to, and then had to resort to asking friends and family to check on his welfare. He had told me to leave him alone, so I didn't think calling to be sure he's ok was an option for me in his mind]

"Please stop"

"I could asked you to stop writing me but no'

Me: "Ok [his nickname]. No problem. I'm here when you're ready."

Him: "Right after you received the [divorce] papers"

"Ready for what?"

"Okay that's the last time you tell me that if you don't answer. As last time [he wants me to tell him what he should be ready for, although I already told him I'm waiting for when he's ready to talk]

"Ready for what?"

[I was in church at this point and unable to respond even if I did have something to say]

"By the way I have to receive a letter for my background study, my driver license, my college card because they don't want to forward them at the post office. Can you please when you receive them put the in one envelop drop them at the mail room for UPS at the apt so I would be able to get them?"

"Please if necessary!"

WHAT? After all that he wants me AGAIN to go out of my way and make sure he gets his mail? I already assured that he has his key so that he can get into the house and pick it up. I'm not going to play this stupid game. No. If he wants his stuff he can come get it.

Now you understand why I'm so confused about what to do next? No matter what I do, it's wrong!

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!1

[babyducks]

Hi ptilda,

This is very very difficult stuff.   It can be incredibly frustrating.   You are right smack in the middle of it and you are emotionally involved and emotionally raw so this is hard.   Stressful.   I feel sympathy for the position you find yourself in.

Unfortunately you've been thrown into the deep end of the pool and the learning curve is pretty steep.  formflier, KateCat, and myself, we've been around here for a while, we've been at this for decent piece of time and the results we have seen have come slowly.   I understand the pressure you feel with the divorce and deportation on the horizon.   You can only do so much within those limitations.   

I read the exchange you posted.   There is a lot in there to try and sort through.   It's very intense, and very loaded.    Trying to keep this simple for now though I have two questions, if that is okay?

First, when your husband says things like "I cannot be killed for papers"  or "ordered me thrown away like garbage" or "prefer to go back to my hell country" is it his normal habit to use such high stakes language?  Does he typically describe things in life/death terms?   And can you tell us if feel that type of descriptive language is increasing or decreasing?     The reason I ask is I concur with KateCat upstream, he sounds as if he is in the middle of a delusional crisis and it would be probably be helpful to get some idea if it is waxing or waning.

I am growing very concerned by the high stakes nature of his conversation.  It's a red flag to me.   

My second question is that twice during the conversation he says "please stop now"  and "please stop".  What do you think he means by this?   What is he asking you to do?    That appears to me to be the only time he asks you a question that isn't rhetorical.   What do you make of that?

It must look like to you he is playing a stupid game.   And that must hurt like he! (sorry moderators).  He really isn't though.   His disordered mind is putting things together in ways that make sense to him.   

None of us here are experts.   Can you find the time and resources to connect with a mental health professional where you live?   The amount of stuff you are facing is pretty significant.  We can help but we can only put so much nuance into text on a screen. 

'ducks

[formflier]

 

Ptilda,

 

I want to join Babyducks in giving you support and a big hug... .the deep end analogy is very appropriate... .we are trying to toss you a life ring.

I realize you are trying to throw a life ring to your husband as well... .and we'll never know exactly what he is thinking... .but... .I think it is highly likely that he believes you are throwing bricks at him while he believes he is drowning in the deep end... .

(Babyducks... working your analogy for all it's worth!)

You know you are not... .and it seems natural to try and convince him you are not tossing bricks at him... .because you love him... .BUT... .right now... .I believe that the smartest thing that you can do for you... .and the relationship is to grab the life ring we are tossing (bpdfamily) and let your husband save himself.

He... .most likely... .is a better swimmer than you give him credit for... .

So... .for future communications... .please stay away from any effort (for now) to present your feelings or views on him or your actions.

We need to help you learn how to keep communications open from him... .without agreeing with his distorted world view.

Agreeing and listening and validating are very different things.

I'll end this post for now... .and hope to write more later today.

FF