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I need to set a boundary in regards to physical abuse. I've been being too lax in regards to it, I think because I feel it happens due to his mental disorder. I don't fear he'll really hurt me, or I'd leave. He doesn't really even seem sorry after it happens, although I'll get a halfhearted "sorry" later if I address it. He doesn't seem to have a sense of shame, or much conscience.

So because boundaries are about protecting US, how do I set a boundary in regards to this. Plus, do I tell him the boundary? I think that will just set him off, and anger him. Should this be a boundary that I just know I have, and what should that look like?

Hi CB,

What, specifically, has he done or what does he do? I only experienced two episodes of what qualfies as DV: the time she slammed the fridge door so hard that the door contents broke on the for and made a mess (I was holding our 8 month old son at the time, though luckily he was passed out--- that I let him fall asleep before his bath was the trigger: unacceptable), and another time she was mad at me and walked by the bed and smacked my bare leg in anger. Turn it around: legally, that qualifies as battery. If I had done the same, I know she would have reported me. Sure, I wasn't hurt, but it was a crime nonetheless.

Though I had evidence of her throwing things when I wasn't home, I never had anything thrown at me with the intent to cause harm. As a teen, my BPD mother did. Even if an object doesn't strike (thankfully, I had the reflexes to dodge injurous objects) the intent to cause harm is assault, still a crime.

Has either of these things happened? Maybe the can help for some perspective:

Duluth Model (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61403.msg580701#msg580701)

I still struggle with this with regard to mental illnesses (my mom: BPD and Depression,.my Ex only clinically diagnosed with Depression):


What's your limit or boundary, Ceruleanblue? If you communicate it clearly, are you willing to accept that he may ignore it in the future? If so, what then?

Turkish

That's just it, I don't know what might be a correct boundary to set around this. I know boundaries are about ME, not about controlling him.

I can't even think of what a boundary I can set in regards to this. Calling police, will be the end of the marriage. To me, that would be a boundary, and it would be about ME, right? Well, I don't feel that is something I could do if I want to stay in this, and I do want to stay in this. I do not however, want to be physically abused. It's never been severe, but it's scary, and it's ugly. What's even scarier, is he does NOT have the remorse I've always heard a lot of abusers have after. In fact, he always blames ME afterwards. He always feels he was justified. It makes me sick. He won't just man up, and admit that he was wrong, or if he does briefly, the next day he's reworked it, and he's back to it being my fault.

I'm just confused as to how to set a boundary, other than just to leave if it happens again, and I really don't want to do that.

You're absolutely right, Ceruleanblue - boundaries are about taking care of yourself, not about controlling someone else. Setting a boundary is telling him what you will do if he violates that boundary.

A boundary around physical abuse could be - "I will leave the room/house if you try to touch me in anger."

Does this sound like a boundary you would be comfortable setting and enforcing?

The most important thing about boundaries is that you must be consistent with them. This will be harder at first, because it's natural for people to test boundaries. Usually the behavior gets worse temporarily, until you've proven that you are firm with your boundaries. These are called extinction bursts, and this article explains what to expect and why they happen - Extinction Bursts - Important to Understand when your Partner has BPD (https://bpdfamily.org/2010/10/partner-have-borderline-personality.html)


Setting and enforcing boundaries against abuse is the healthiest thing for both partners. I know it's hard to do when we're not used to good, firm boundaries. But the only way to get better at something is to do it and keep doing it.

Above all, take care of yourself. 

My Ex's mother endured decades of abuse, but never called the authorities,.partly due to cultural reasons. Physical abuse hasn't happened in years. She tolerated it,.but it took decades to die down. Ths is probably not uncommon.

He's blaming you, when the blame (and shame) falls squarely on him. You don't want to report him (because that's kind of like crossing The Rubicon--- can't take that back), but you still find his abuse unacceptable. You don't want it to end, but you want to stop being abused.

Say we can work out a boundary here. What will you do if he violates it? Being rash or impulsive may lead to escalation, so it's good that you are trying to work this out.

Hi Ceruleanblue


Dealing with abuse is very unpleasant and finding a proper strategy to safely extricate yourself from this situation can indeed be tricky. I am very sorry that you are in this difficult situation. I am glad you posted about it though so you can get support and advice from us here.

It's clear that you value the relationship with your partner and don't just want to leave. You also value your own safety. The question then is, at what point do the boundaries stemming from the former value start to conflict with the latter?

There are various ways to defend/enforce your boundaries. You don't necessarily have to first verbally communicate your boundary, your boundaries and the consequences of crossing them can also become apparent from your actions. We have a workshop in which various examples are given of ways to defend/enforce your boundaries:


Take care and I hope this is of some help to you

That does help. The more I think on it, the more I think this needs to be a boundary I have in place in my mind before I ever have to enforce it, and I feel stating it to him beforehand would not be helpful.

He's never outright hit me, it's usually grabbing me or my wrists, or trying to wrest something away from me by extreme force. I end up hurt, and this last time, my hand sustained a cut. The entire mouth of a spray water bottle was pretty much ripped almost completely off, so that tells you how much force was used, and why my hand ended up getting cut on the handle.

I don't want the marriage to end, and when these incidences happen, he is usually screaming at me that he wants a divorce, and for me to pack up right then, or the next day. I don't want to do that, so I've thought about it, and the only thing I can think of to do is move to the spare bedroom after one of these incidences. Would that be a decent boundary, because I'm sure he'll see it as punishing him, rather than me keeping ME safe.

I really do have a zero tolerance attitude for violence, but I also have compassion that he does have this mental issue. What worries me though is that he's still blaming ME for all the times he's gotten physical with me. To me, that's saying that there is little likelihood of it ever completely stopping, if he won't even own it, or acknowledge that no matter what he "thinks" I did, physical violence is NOT OKAY!

Do you think my boundary is too soft? Not enough? I just don't know. Most things seem easier to set a boundary around than this. In fact, I just enforced a strong boundary today, and he's probably seething mad about it inside, even though he's currently hiding it from me(this is a pattern for him). I wouldn't let him take my car to work, because then I'd be stranded at home, and I'd stated my boundary a month or so back. It was hard, but I did it, and he had to ride his motorcycle to work in the rain.

CB, I understand that you have excused a lot on the basis of him having a mental illness. Consider though that acting out physically is a very immature behavior. Toddlers and preschoolers might try this and they learn pretty quickly that it isn't acceptable behavior. However, they don't learn it by themselves, they learn it from adults who teach them not to.

I don't know if your H will take responsibility to stop on his own. It certainly works for him and as long as you allow this, he is likely to keep on doing it, just like a toddler will smack a sibling until an adult steps in.

It is up to you to put the boundary on this.

I bring up the example of a toddler, because even if he does have issues, and emotional immaturity, he seems to be functional and reasonably intelligent. If a toddler can learn to "use your words, not your hands" , I think he can too.

I also think you can expect him to learn this.

Yes, he is smart enough, and works a professional job. I consider him high functioning at work(although he always seems to have someone at work he hates), and low functioning at home.

I agree though that he's totally responsible for what he does, just as I am, and he certainly should take responsibility, should be sorry(he's really not, he just blames me), and he is totally capable of learning not to become physical. I mean, he's not doing that stuff at work, although he's been known to get into physical confrontations with his kids sports coaches, and random people due to road rage.

This is something he needs to stop doing, and I've never thought it was okay, and I'm just scared because he seems to think it is. He even has his T convinced(don't ask me how he did this), that I'm equally responsible. He has to be lying about these incidences. NO ONE who has ever read up on, or dealt with domestic violence would say what he has done is okay. Also, I found out after we married, that his oldest daughter claims he once choked her. I discounted it because this girls is clearly personality disordered, but maybe it's true. They all lie, BPDh, his kids, so how would I know? I just know that he has a history, going back to high school, where he got in a "from one end of the room to the other" FIGHT with his shop teacher. Everyone told me that was so shocking at the time, because he was mostly quiet, but now I see it's how he reacts, and it's been lifelong.


He can learn, he's capable of it, but will he want to? All I can do is set the boundary I guess, and protect ME.

That could be a boundary, if you feel comfortable enforcing it. It's definitely a good starting place. You're really thinking about this, and that's key.  |iiii

When developing boundaries, it's important to keep in mind what you're trying to accomplish. Do you mean that you would stay there overnight, or that you would move completely into the spare bedroom? What does moving to the spare bedroom mean for you in terms of self-protection, physically and/or emotionally?

With physical violence, the primary concern is defusing the situation. This keeps you safe, and it gives him a chance to get back to an emotional baseline. What sort of actions might you be able to take to defuse escalating situations with your husband?


Physical abuse in a relationship requires ownership and acknowledgment on both sides. He's unlikely to acknowledge/accept it until you start showing him that you have zero tolerance for physical violence. Unfortunately, you can't just talk him into believing that physical violence is unacceptable no matter what, when your actions are telling him that you will accept it.

I'm going to use a silly example here, so forgive me. :) But let's say I keep a bowl of peppermints on my desk. People have to come into my cubicle (my 'personal space' to see the bowl. Most people will ask if they can have a peppermint before they reach for one. Some people just grab one. I feel like these people are violating my boundaries by coming into my personal space and taking something from it without asking.

I can do one of several things.

• I can let it slide because I feel like it's not an important enough boundary to defend (it's just cheap candy).



• I can not say anything because I don't want to potentially cause conflict, even though it really bothers me.



• I can sarcastically say, "Help yourself!" When the other person apologizes, I can laugh it off and say it's fine, even though I don't really think it's fine.



• I can say, "I'd appreciate it if you'd ask before taking candy from my desk," in a polite but firm tone, and continue to enforce that.

The first and last options are the only ones that can lead to my consistent well-being and comfort with my candy boundary.

If you don't prove that you will enforce your boundaries, then others have no reason to believe you when you say that you will. That's why it's so important to develop clear and realistic boundaries and have a plan for how you will enforce them.



|iiii  |iiii  |iiii

This is so important. You deserve to be proud of yourself. You can do this. 

CB, I've had to enforce boundaries with my h as well lately. Thankfully, his physical expression has not returned, but I am ready to increase the boundary if needed. In my experience, boundaries seem to be interpreted as 'punishments' by those who are restricted from just doing what they want. As long as it is about keeping yourself physically and emotionally safe rather than trying to change your partner, it isn't really punishments. Remember, pwBPD think you are an extension of them, so boundaries are automatically bad in their minds.

I'm wondering if your spare bedroom door has a lock on it? One of the recommendations from the DV sites is the make sure that the abuser cannot gain access to you. Do you have a safety plan in place that you can carry out if thing become dangerously violent? I know it is hard to think about that kind of thing; it was for me. It's important that you keep yourself safe. In my case, I don't really have access to money, so that is one of the things that I am working on right now.

Hmmm, I guess I could install a lock on the spare bedroom door. And yes, he does see boundaries as punishment, and it's only been recently that he's been having any boundaries himself. I still don't know if he understands what boundaries are. He argues so long and hard that boundaries are mean, and only meant to punish, that I find it funny that he's now trying to set boundaries with me. I'm fine with that, of course, but it would be so nice if he respected any of mine. I mean, a lock on the door? Sadly, that might be necessary.

He's calmed down after the most recent episode, but who knows why. It seems to ramp up, he blows, then things either break totally down(one time he left me), or he manages to calm down after he blew off steam.

It's hard setting boundaries with someone who claims not to understand what they are, but it really is necessary. I mean, his view of what boundaries are, can't keep me from having them.

Hi CB,

I just want to add a cautionary note to the subject of 'locked doors'. The best advice where physical violence is a possibility is to create a Safety Plan, this usually involves leaving the house to go stay somewhere until things calm down.

The problem in my experience with putting yourself as part of a plan behind a 'locked door' is that once someone is in a highly dysregulated state it is often a 'red rag to a bull'.

I'm not saying don't lock a door, I'm saying a Safety Plan is usually to leave the house, to make sure your exit isn't blocked etc. always have your phone in your pocket, overnight bag in the car and so on.

Again this is something to really fine tune in your own T.

Can you talk about what boundaries he has set for you and you him? Would it help to list some here and fine tune them with members?

Hi again Ceruleanblue

I think sweetheart makes a very important point here about safety planning. To help you with your own safety planning, I encourage you to take a look at the following document: Safety First (https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety_first.pdf)

Boundaries are not really about the other people in our lives; they are about us and our own needs. So, it doesn't really matter whether the other people understand the concept or how to implement them. In fact, those who have the most trouble with understanding the concept are probably the people we need to have the strongest boundaries with.

It is a good point about the locked door in the middle of dysregulation -- probably would add fuel to the fire of their emotions. I would agree, you need to be ready to physically leave if there is a threat of violence. There are also warning signs that there is going to be a physical incident. Knowing what those would be a good thing, so you have a chance to leave before you are seriously injured.

If I thought locking myself in the bedroom would further anger him, I certainly wouldn't do it. Based on his action in the past, I don't think that would enrage him.

His "boundary" is about me texting him at work, but to me, this just feels like more power/control. He wants me to be always accessible to him, but he wants to be off the radar when it suits him. Now, keep in mind that with his job, he's getting texts ALL THE TIME, and he's on call 24/7 if they need him. If he's in a meeting, of course I don't expect him to answer. He takes everything to extremes, and everything is black/white. He's fine with being fully accessible to everyone else, at all times, but he resents that from me. Today, I simply texted him to see if he could come home a little early due to us having to be somewhere, he ignored me. He later said he was busy. Funny, how he's never too busy to interrupt our times to text others. It's just another double standard. I don't expect immediate answers either, but it's funny how he'll ignore me when he's angry. He's so passive aggressive.

The boundary I have is that I won't stick around for verbal or physical abuse anymore. I've had it with all that, and I deserve a more peaceful life. Smaller boundaries can be put in place later, after this very basic one is well established.

Sounds like a good boundary to me! |iiii Nobody deserves to be abused so standing up for yourself and protecting yourself with this boundary is something I consider a positive development. Setting boundaries and safety planning can go hand in hand, this is especially important when trying to safely extricate yourself from a physically abusive environment.

I previously quoted something about examples of boundaries and that you can have various options for defending a particular boundary. You mention locking yourself in the spare bedroom to keep yourself safe, that is one option. Can you also think up other options to deal with this type of situation? Are there perhaps certain people in your life you might want to involve in your safety planning?

It can really help to think ahead and consider the various options you might have. When you have your plan ready, it's easier to implement it in the heat of the moment when you suddenly find yourself in an abusive situation again.

Take care

OK... .practicalities... .f you are going to have a safety plan and safe room, you need to ensure that you have cell phone/ 911 access from within the room - no matter how quickly you have to take shelter. You may need to get get quite cheap pre-paid phone and secure it in your safe place.

If I was really that afraid of him, I'd just leave him. I mean, if have these plans in place, but I've never been so physically afraid of him that I feel I have to leave. If I was truly afraid of him, I wouldn't even consider locking myself in a room. I'd hightail it out of the house, if I was that afraid.

I'll keep in mind to keep my phone close by. Doesn't hurt to have it, just in case I have to go stay elsewhere, more for him to cool off than anything. He's been pretty mellow for a bit, but that could change any time.

I think he knows I've sort of hit the wall of just excusing a lot of his behaviors because I truly feel he has a mental illness. I've decided that while he does have something going on, it does NOT excuse his behaviors, and he can control them. I mean, I didn't see them until after we'd married, and he obviously doesn't act this way at work.

I am keeping my boundaries clearly defined though, because I know at some point, I'm likely to need them again.

This may be true.  It definitely will be a turning point.

I considered that calling 911 on my wife would end things and I also considered that reporting her to CPS would end things as well.

Turns out they were turning points, big ones, in our r/s and things got better from that.

The first 911 call I made was scary and she was mocking me and telling me it was over.  Deep down I think she realized it was a turning point and I wasn't going to be intimidated any more.

FF

Just wanted to reply to one bit:


Please consider... .

Not feeling afraid ... .Does NOT equal safe, does not equal not dangerous.  Convincing yourself otherwise is actually dangerous.

Trusting your instincts to tell you when there is danger, is a good thing.

However, trusting that you are not in danger, when you do not feel scared... .can be dangerous.

Many people have been harmed, abused, killed, and did not actually feel afraid until they were already trapped without an escape.  Many people get harmed, abused, killed unintentionally by a partner who got out of hand, but the behavior was "typical" for the couple... .but a mistake happened.

At the point in an abusive situation, when the partner wants to hightail it out for safety, is actually the most likely point to be severely harmed.

Consider not waiting until you are actually IN danger to leave.

Set a boundary BEFORE danger... .and leave.

Setting and enforcing firm boundaries around physical abuse is meant to keep it from progressing to such dangerous situations.

It's great that you've been working on your safety plans and boundaries, CB.  |iiii You're doing good work.

CB you might find this book interesting The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker.

I read it many many years ago before I met my husband. My career has involved working with people who had extremely violent histories in intensive psychiatric care settings and forensic units and I found it then very helpful.

Little did I know that years later I would be reminded on a personal level of the importance of tuning in to my own bodies danger signals. It has stood me in good stead in many aspects of my life. I can't praise it highly enough.


Just want to say the point Sunflower highlights about thinking it's safe because you don't feel scared is a really excellent point. That's what made me think about this book.

I wonder if it might help you CB in a mindful way to start listening to your body and not just your thoughts when you are in a conflict situation with your husband.

It took me a while to understand that my physical and emotional states are as important as each other and that I needed to pay attention to what they were both telling me. 

I'll have to look that book up. I really do listen to my gut feelings, and I'm also pretty intuitive. I know BPDh is capable of assaulting me, but my gut just tells me he's way, way too narcissistic to really hurt me. I don't actually think he "loses control" as much as he wants me to believe. I think it's an excuse to vent his anger, but I'd bet my last dollar that he never loses sight of not wanting the consequences if he hurt me.

He took anger management classes, and was so condescending about the court ordered guys in there, and he works in a very professional setting, and he'd never want that to come up on his background checks.

Plus, if he'd ever really hurt his ex, I'd have heard about it. In fact, it was his ex that stabbed him, and hit him with a hammer, and she is just super crazy. I'm sure he probably provoked her, but who does that? If he was going to hurt anyone, it would have been HER. That much, I'm sure of. From what I hear, he never retaliated against her, but I'm sure he was about as physical with her as he is with me(and maybe that's why she stabbed him... .who knows). She was more the "fight fire with fire" type than I am. I look out for ME, and I don't fight back or escalate it.

I do listen to my body, and my gut feelings, and probably I should have walked away sooner a couple times. My gut was telling me he might go off, and if I truly feared him, I would have walked. Now, because I'm just sick of dealing with it at all, I will do so. It may mean we never resolve anything, but at least I won't be around for him to attack me. There have been a couple times where there just was no warning, and I was actually walking away from the situation, and he grabbed me from behind. I wasn't seriously hurt, but he did fling me across the room, into a glass table. I thought I was doing the right thing by walking away, but maybe next time I'll back away, and not turn my back on him! 

I don't know, maybe one of these time, even though I'm not "hurt", maybe it would serve as a lesson to him to have me call the police. I just fear that will be the END of our marriage, and the end of him getting help.

I do need to stop worrying about him though, because only he's accountable for his actions, and I need to protect me. My gut feeling, and my body keep telling me though that he'd walk away before really hurting me. He's way too into himself, and his lifestyle to want to mess that up. He's all about what people think of him.

I'm going to be blunt:

Your language sounds a lot like minimizing and rationalize an abusive relationship.

You focus very much on him... .

-His limits

-How far HE will go

-Consequences to him

Etc.

I am concerned NOT about his ability to hurt you.  I am convinced he HAS the ability and lacks regard, lacks the desire to set appropriate limits to his feelings and actions.

He threw you into a glass table and you say you weren't hurt? 

My concern is YOU...

YOUR ability to value yourself

Your ability to value and have insight on what is good for your wellbeing

Your ability to make a decision for your safety that does NOT consider what HIS consequences will be.

My concern for you is the ability to think of yourself, and your safety... .WITHOUT one single thought of him.  Think of yourself... .independent of him entirely.  Think about what is good for you... .independent of him entirely.  After you do that... .After you consider yourself fully and completely... .Then you can add how you two interact and impact one another... .while maintaining the values for you that you have.

Do not call the police to teach him a lesson next time her throws you into a glass table.

Call the police because you value your life, mental and physical well being.  Call the police because your value is that assault and battery on another human being is not acceptable.  He should be fortunate that the consequence of assault and battery is a call to the police.  There are many states where it is perfectly legal and justifiable to shoot a person doing assault and battery on you.  He could be dead for choosing this option with someone who has a greater self value.

I realize that I do not follow this board, your threads as well as others here.  I realize my perspective is based in what I'm reading in this thread alone.

I also realize that my opinion here may sound extreme in comparison.  Please challenge this to see and work this out for yourself. 

However, I cannot imagine any mitigating circumstances that would cause me to conclude differently.

Had he thrown his ex into a glass table, then it is possible that she was acting in self defense when she went at him with a hammer.  IDK!  However, if you weren't there, neither do you.  Your assumption is a story you tell yourself to justify this relationship.  It is not fact... .along with many other stories.

Convincing yourself that things are not that bad is exactly what victims of DV do to remain in the abusive situation.  This is exactly what I hear in your thread.

I honestly mean this in the most loving, concerned way possible.

I wish people would have spoke this bluntly to me.

However, I still would have needed to hear it 100x's more before an ounce could seep in.

Anyone who treated my DV situation by normalizing it, I now see as a type of codependence... .or at least an unintentional invalidating message.

Your claims against him are not ok, not normal at all.  Getting flung across a room is outrageous!  I hope you will feel so as well.

Allow me to ask some perhaps stupid questions:

What is your definition of marriage and of staying in love with someone?

If you have to live in constant fear of your spouse , the person who is supposed to support and love you , then why would you or anyone accept that kink of life? Years ago, women stayed in the marriage because she cannot make it outside of the home, but nowadays with women fully are working ,the economic reason becomes moot.

Hey CB,

When I was in an abusive relationship, and I believe this is true for most others as well... .

There was always a very small voice somewhere inside of me that knew this way of living was not ok.

But I would find myself "reasoning" and "rationalizing" in a way that would quiet this small voice so that the voice would get smaller and smaller.

The more others around me either confirmed or denied this voice, really made an impact.

When I heard stories of abuse that were worse or more progressed than mine, I'd compare and use that to quiet my little voice that tried to tell me, "this is not ok!"

Sure, I also no longer felt fear in situations others did.  I felt it was contained in some way, or predictable in some way.  I was used to certain rages, that they no longer scared me and only an escalation of what I was "used to" feared me.

I know that there is a small part of you that knows that getting flung across a room into a glass table is NOT ok, even if you didn't bleed open and require emergency medical care.

I do not want to assume so... .

Can I ask you... .

Why do you say you didn't get "hurt?"  What is the definition of hurt to you? At what point do you consider that you are actually being harmed?

_{Making a boundary on not accepting abuse is great, but if you are waiting by defining it about being cut open and needing urgent care, I think we need to guide you better.}

Okay, maybe the "undecided" board was NOT the place to post this. I only posted here because my posts were being moved off the "staying" board to here, although I really am committed for now to trying to work on ME, and the marriage. I've found that a lot of people on the "undecided board" or "leaving board", just DO NOT understand the reasons why some of us STAY, and try to make things works. I don't come here to feel worse. OBVIOUSLY, I do not think this is okay is any way, and I sort of feel that being accused of minimizing the assaults just doesn't serve much purpose. I've fully acknowledged that I don't think it's okay, in any way, shape or form. This is my first marriage/relationship where I've had to deal with this, and I don't stay for the reasons you probably think I do. I feel those on the staying board probably have a better understanding of this.

In answer to your question, "hurt" to me can be anything from my feelings being hurt due to emotional abuse, all the way to cuts, bruises or being physically battered. In fact, to me, the scars of emotional abuse tends to run much deeper, and last longer.

Of course I know his flinging me across the room was not okay! I'm not stupid, but I stay because I do see he's making some progress by just being in DBT, and he's made slight improvements in some areas. I stay because I believe far too many people just give up when things get tough. I stay because I believe we were married in the eyes of God(and no, I don't think God wants anyone to stay in a marriage to be abused), and I really, really view that he's emotionally unstable, and deserves some compassion. Normal people have more self control than he does, and I know he doesn't like being this way. I stay, mostly due to my religious beliefs, and because I think he's working on change, as am I.

If I thought my life was in jeopardy, or that he had zero chance of getting better, I'd walk. I do have a back up plan, but I'm working on ME, and giving this some time for his DBT to work.

you are right. You should be posting in the staying board where folks are trying to stay and perhaps have much more to offer you in terms of support.

Never once did I say that you should leave your husband.  Everything I have said I believe would be true for the staying board as well.  I would admonish anyone, staying board, any board, to call the police on a partner that throws them across the room.  

Please do not use this as a reason to discount my words.

You have said that your H would not act this way at work.  However, he does at home.  Setting the standard and boundary in your home that home is a safe place, not where violence occurs is necessary.

You are asking for help setting boundaries around "physical abuse."

However, you focus on fear of him leaving or getting in trouble.

This is serious!  You are right to want to set boundaries!  :)eciding these things ahead of time is wise.  You are right to want MC to take this seriously!



What constitutes a reason to call the police?  Can you start here?

If your H is getting an indirect message that there is no limit, no reason for which you would call the police for fear of losing him, or for your own fear of consequences to him, then you are indeed in a dangerous situation, with no limits.

In itself that would be a test of his commitment to you, which is more important to him, You? Appearances? Embarrassment? Being seen to be wrong?

If you dont top that list when it comes to the crunch, then his motivations are not in your best interest.

It takes a crisis for most people to decide their path forward

*mod*

To everyone reading…

A common model of women in domestic violence situation is a women trapped in a relationship by circumstance (pregnant or financially dependent, or ______) and a frustrated man (work problems or addiction or ______).

I'm not saying that any of these specific conditions exists here, but in the case above, its easy to see how calling the police might get the guy incarnated, the rent doesn't get paid, and a pregnant women is homeless.

Solving domestic abuse isn't as easy as it might seem and it requires dealing with the bigger picture.

Maybe this basic understanding will help us get to a more realistic solution for  Ceruleanblue.

We have a domestic violence protocol here:

https://bpdfamily.com/discussions/search-info4.htm

We have a DV article and workshop here:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/borderline-personality-disorder-and-physical-abuse

Ceruleanblue,

I don't think this is simple a values/boundaries matter - in matters of violence, serial adultery, crime, addiction - its more complicated than that.

Can we inventory the situation (here) and, in a separate thread on Legal, open a topic specifically and limited to forming a safety plan.

Here is a first pass on inventorying the situation from what I briefly read above.  Can we correct/complete this so that we are all dealing with the same understanding.

• All domestic violence is not equal, if I hear you, this is more physical intimidation than injury (not saying it's not significant, just inventorying).



• It sound like there is a trap here - the consequences of taking certain corrective actions beget consequences to you that are more concerning that than the physical intimidation.



• I don't think we should say you are "zero tolerance" - if you were zero tolerance you'd be gone or he'd have stopped (not a criticism, just defining where we are).



• While there is some external visibility (he took anger management class), there is not visibility to family, friends, or an accountability person who will step in and take him aside. (like a brother, best friend, mother, former coach, clergy)

Can you profile how the intimidation typically develops? Often there is a pattern of event and actions on both sides that escalate to the incident.  Understanding this, we might be able to come up with a way to recognize the emerging pattern early and redirecting its progression… a short term solution, while devising a longer term fix.

Skip

(https://bpdfamily.com/images/safety_first.jpg) (https://bpdfamily.com/discussions/search-info4.htm)

He's so narcissistic, that I think I already know this answer to this. I hate to use "always" statements, but in this case, it's actually pretty close to true: he almost always puts himself first(or his kids), and the couple incidences he's "listened to me/cared about my feelings" he resents, and never stops throwing in my face. I know that appearances, and being "right" are top of his list. I have to look out for my best interests, because he's just incapable of it due to his personality. And that's my job anyway, but it sure would be nice to have a spouse who has my back.

Thanks Skip! I find all of the above to be true.

I think if he'd ever really hurt me, I like to think I'd have left, and not come back unless he'd gotten extensive help. Heck, I don't want to be hurt! Plus, I've always had very strong opinions about men who abuse women(and it's way less than favorable). Having said that though, I do feel someone with a mental health disorder does make it so it's not as cut and dried as when you are dealing with someone who doesn't. Now, if I thought my life was in danger, or that he'd actually cause bodily harm, even that would have to go out the window. I mean, in this case, I have to come first, because there is no way, whatever someone's "issue" is, that I'm going to pay a price(and my family pay a price), by me being injured or dead.

I don't really feel trapped. I feel I'm here by choice. I spend a lot of time in T trying to figure out "why" I stay, and she agrees I don't suffer from low self esteem, and she's also aware that my faith factors into this. I didn't know what I was getting when I took my marriage vows, for sure, but I wouldn't leave him if he had cancer, and I sort of look at this in the same way. He's trying(although this waxes and wanes), and I'm working on ME too. My T has said, and I agree, that I can work on me, and try to hang in there in this marriage, see if he gets better, use the tools I've found here, and still work on the marriage. To me, that's sort of a win/win. I'm the sole focus, and then the marriage(not doing things to make things worse).

I also agree that to most people, they don't know what he is at home(this isn't just isolated to home though, judging from past incidences in public and with other people). So, in that way he sort of "saves face". He has told me he's told his DBT therapist of the most recent physical incident, but I'm not sure that's true. Honesty is a huge issue with him. He's spent a lot of time in DBT just lately painting me black, and DBT T seems to be buying into it. That is so disheartening. I also sometimes wonder if there is a cultural difference, as he seems to want to appear very dominant and "macho". I'm white, he's half Mexican, but he strongly associates with the Mexican side of his family. He's sometimes joked about that whole "get back in the kitchen, and make me a sandwich" mentality, but I wonder if on some level he buys into that, or thinks it's macho? He does have a strong need to dominate/control, and he doesn't want to be accountable to ANYONE. I think accountability would really help, but I don't think it's something I can suggest to him? Or is it?

I've identified some rationale and some recovery steps in my earlier post, and you will need to work through this systematically and in a cooperative way with your H.

However, bottom line, if you can't charm him into taking on an accountability partner in the next 120 day, you should leave. Or you need to just accept the physicality as part of your life.

This is your reality.

Now many you try to charm him into the accountability partner but not push him to breaking, and then when there is another incident you ask him to leave until he agrees to do this.

Carefully getting this out in the open is what you have to do.  The visibility is a great deterrent.

The value and boundary here is that there will be no physicality in the relationship - the boundary is the accountability partner must be in place.

There are steps to get to this place, you don't have to bomb him with it next week.

------> Can you tell us how the physical incidents typical evolve.  What does he do,m what do you do, how does it build to a explosion?

If his number 1 priority is his public image then not allowing abuse to be kept private is probably important. Dont allow it to be skeleton in the closet. The issue has to be instinctively part of number 1 priority

I feel the need to chime in here because my wife has been physically abusive toward me directly, also been violent by slamming doors and throwing or breaking things, physically abusive towards herself, and verbally threatening to be physically abusive.  It's been stated in previous comments, but I will echo this:

Domestic Violence is a complicated issue.

Simply advising someone to "leave" an abusive relationship is not always the best advice, and often not helpful.  Also not helpful is suggesting that the target of the abuse is in any way responsible, or the abuse is in any way within his/her control, or that actions we take can prevent someone else from abusing. 

My strong opinion here is that boundaries regarding physical abuse are universal and do not need to be communicated or stated.  Really what you need is a safety plan.  This is a plan thought out beforehand of what to do when the abuse begins again (and it will).  At the point physical safety is in question - there's no need to continue communication, validation, or considering the needs of the abuser.  When physical safety is in question, one needs only to be concerned with his/her safety plan.  My safety plan is like this:

- ALWAYS park my car such that I am not blocked in. 

- Keep some extra provisions in my car

- Contact friends/family beforehand to know of safe places where I can stay.

- Keep my phone charged and on my person as much as is reasonably possible.  If things feel especially tense, I even take it to the bathroom with me and sleep with it beneath my pillow. 

- Avoid situations where my wife can trap me in a room.  If she is being verbally abusive, that's my cue to leave the room and into another room where I can lock the door.  Normally this results in her trying to kick the door down.  I won't open the door under ANY circumstances. 

Ceruleanblue, I know you love your husband and have compassion and understanding for him.

An abusive relationship is unhealthy for both partners. It's best to either change or leave such a dynamic. But, if you can't do one of those, then you have to accept it for what it is. And what that means for you.


Can you think of someone in your husband's life who might make a good accountability partner?

In the meantime, it's important to develop a good, clear safety plan. Breaking down how these situations evolve is a great start.  |iiii

Okay, maybe this is a dumb question, but what exactly is an accountability partner? I think I sort of know, but want to make sure.

Does the accountability partner need to know that there has been domestic violence? That might be an issue, because BPDh doesn't want to admit there has been, or he blames me. He's had moments where he's said he knows his actions weren't okay, but he then goes back to blaming.

How does the accountability partner help? What are the duties? I just fear that BPDh will lie about me, and the person might buy into the whole "it's Ceruleanblue's fault", because BPDh can be very convincing and manipulative. Very.

I think this is a great idea, but I just fear broaching the subject with BPDh. Things have been calmer the last couple weeks, and he's in "try harder to be nice" mode, and I hate to set him off. Any ideas how I can approach this that might not trigger him?

There are no dumb questions, Ceruleanblue. :) I'll try to answer you, but I know that Skip will be able to give a better answer and explanation.

Accountability requires him to accept responsibility for his actions and stay true to his commitments.

Without accountability, he will keep doing what all unaccountable people do - make excuses and deflect their energy away from the root cause of the problem (themselves).

An accountability partner helps ensure he is staying on the right path, accepting responsibility for his behavior, and working on himself. It's important that it's someone your husband can trust and be completely open with. He needs a safe place to process his behavior and express his feelings, and he also needs to know that he can reach out for support when he feels himself slipping.


Yes, the accountability partner has to know that there has been domestic violence. None of this works without honesty and transparency.

If your husband won't admit that there's been domestic violence, then you have to find a safe, careful way to bring this to light. He is wrapped up in his self-image, which he can continue to maintain for himself as long as there's no visibility of his abusive behavior.


I completely understand that you don't want to set him off and trigger him. You don't have to figure everything out right now.  

For the short term, I think it would be helpful to formulate a clear safety plan.

My experience with a spouse who behaved violently is that over time, the level of violence increased. It started with verbal abuse. Then it graduated to grabbing and shoving. Then hitting and choking.

My concern for you, CB, is that you're minimizing his bad behavior, just because you haven't yet been seriously injured. Don't do that. He's totally responsible for his actions, mental illness or not.

Did we help you set any clear implementable boundaries around physical abuse?

What are they?

HappyNihilist describes it well - I'd only add that you both have access to the AP and they "monitor"' things.  Say its his older brother. One night he losses his temper.  You call the AP. AP then gets involved - he asks the two of you to lunch to talk about it - if its been going on a while, he may just call his brother.  He is part of the Safety Plan, a place for you to go to if things get rough…

This is one example.

It gives visibility and ends any game-playing.

One of the greatest tools in situations like this is visibility.  In your husband's case, with his image concerns, it will likely be very effective.

It's not going to be an easy step for him. You are going to need to need to need to be vulnerable, open, cooperative, constructive, honest, and firm.

 

Normally, APs have some "regular" howgozit type contacts with the person they are holding accountable.

So... maybe at the start... .once a week the AP calls your hubby, and at some point in the conversation directly asks how he is doing on controlling his urges to get physical.

In my experience, the key is that at some point the AP is someone your husband can be "real" with.

Don't be shocked if there is a rocky start... ."I'm just doing this to appease my wife... .you know I don't REALLY have a problem.  If she wouldn't xyz... "

Eventually, "I have a problem with (whatever he calls it).  I can't believe I have hurt my wife... .can you help me through this... ."

FF

     I was reading your replies and they reminded me of myself, not too long ago.

My husband was all about how things LOOKED on the outside. What would others think of him? What might people say if they saw how he talked to his family?

I used to "control" his outbursts and angry behavior by telling him that I was going to tell all of our friends exactly what he had said to me and , if he lied about it, I was going to bust him on that too.  And it did make him stop and think before he reacted. He did NOT want others to think bad of him.

But no matter how much I tried to make him see the true consequences of his actions... .lack of trust, no intimacy, superficial relationships... .all he cared about was how it LOOKED.

And I still put up with alot of "silent" abuse... .silent treatment, snide remarks, blaming, taking off when he was mad... .because things were "better" and I didn't want to trigger any angry outbursts, or give him a reason to leave.

You are, just as I was, feeding the beast, just to keep him happy. He DOES have an illness. BUT enabling it by minimizing violence and abusive behavior is hurting you both.

He did not hurl you into a table thinking,  "this will only scare her or bruise her, nothing serious." He didn't KNOW what might happen or how hurt you might be... .yet he did it anyway.

I believe the people here truly care about what happens to you. Yes, changing the status quo will trigger him... he will hate having things change. But either things REALLY change, and you deal with what happens, or you keep making excuses, never deal with the uncomfortable issues, and they just stay the same. It's really up to you. good luck.

I'm thinking over the whole accountability partner thing. His older brother actually might be an option, or even his younger brother. One issue there though is that, neither brother understands why BPDh acts the way he does, and I worry that blood is thicker than water? They are a tight family.

Also, I honestly can't say that the level of physical incidences have ever increased in level. There hasn't been an escalation in it, and while I agree that he didn't take time to wonder if flinging me across the room(he didn't mean for me to hit the table), he also didn't do it to hurt me, per se. He grabbed me so I wouldn't leave the room. I'm NOT defending, or minimalizing, and I do think it's abuse, but I also don't want to blow it all out of proportion either. Trust me, I would NOT be in a relationship where I was getting physically injured. You may think I'm minimizing, but I totally disagree with that.

I think I'm being realistic, and I'm calling a spade, a spade. What he does is wrong, but I haven't been injured, and if I had been, I'd have taken different steps than I have so far. I'm establishing a boundary, we've talked extensively about the issue, and I have a plan in place should it happen again. He knows I'm taking it seriously, and I'm not saying it won't ever happen again, but I don't fear he'll ever truly hurt me, or I WOULD NOT BE HERE. Now, before you tell me that "all abused women have said that", spare yourselves. I get that, but give me some credit. I've left relationships where there had NOT been physical abuse, but I did not feel safe(physically and emotionally). At the age of 47, I do consider myself a pretty good judge of behavior, I'm super intuitive(I hate to use the word psychic, but it's akin to that), and it was these same skills that got me out of one bad relationship, and if I have to leave this one, I will.

Obviously, I don't feel I'm in danger, and no matter what I say, some won't believe that, and will choose to believe that no one can ever get better, or do better(me included). I can honestly say that BPDh has been better lately, and I can tell he's really trying to do better. It may or may not last, but we are taking some good steps forward. He's going to ask his DBT T tomorrow what he needs to do to get into group.

And I'm just trying to come up with a way to address the possibility of an accountability partner. He seems more okay with knowing I've reached the end of my tolerance for his physical-ness(abuse), than I'm sure he'll be about having to talk about it with someone. I just know that will not go over well, just like it didn't in MC. His answer when I brought up the physical incidences in MC were to blame me, and take zero responsibility. I'm just wondering how an accountability partner might deal with that, because as of now, BPDh isn't wanting to take any ownership for his actions... .

This may run into problems with potential triangulation due to invested interest of the third party. I have found getting family members involved only runs so far then they turn against you as you are 'critcizing" their gene pool. If it goes wrong you can't just drop them out often scene, it can have own going problems.

The "why" doesn't so much matter.  Define tightly what "physical" will mean and that is what the AP is about.

Slay one dragon at a time.  Arguing and other r/s issues can wait.

Be very careful about family members.  It will either work really well or not at all.

If DV is an "open secret" ... .or "closed secret" in their family, then this is explosive stuff.

If your hubby is the only guy that has started down this path, then it could work quite well.

Which way do you think his family is?

FF

I think FF is right on all counts here - these are critical points.

Well, I'm not trying to slay a lot of dragons at once, really we've just had two huge ongoing issues: his letting his adult kids have too much control, and his anger. We aren't currently fighting over either, I'm just trying to set boundaries in regards to ME, about both. If I only focus on one issue, the other one will once again, get totally out of hand, I fear. I'm not willing to back my boundaries down for him, to solely work on just one. His choices are still his, but as he's always testing boundaries, I'm not willing to let any slide, just to gain ground in another area, if that makes sense. I've done that before, and greatly regretted it. He uses guilt, and me being a pleaser to get his own way, and get me to back down on a boundary. I'm wise to that now.

My boundaries are just protective though, so I don't really view it as slaying a dragon, or expecting any change in him.

I'm rethinking the AP being his brother, as they are a tight knit bunch, and his brother has had DV issues in the past. Now, I know he got past this, as my sister in law left him for it, and she'd a tough nut, she would not stand for it again, I know. I just think that his brother may be too close to home for this, and I think BPDh might manipulate him.

As far as I know, that wasn't DV in the FOO, from spouse to spouse, but there was physical punishment of the kids at times. I think it was actually rare. I just think the AP is probably best not being a family member, although his siblings seem far less dysfunctional than BPDh(or his adult kids).

I still have to broach the subject somehow with BPDh, as things have been so much better, I'm afraid bringing it up will send him on a downward spiral and end his recent efforts. It's cowardly, but I hate to upset the apple cart right now.

Just an observation… you have intimated several times is this thread that installing ":)V prevention"  may not worth getting him upset. To be truthful, if you are timid about this, its not going to work.  For this to work it has to be very important to you, you have to be very committed to it (which means willing to walk away if reasonable efforts don't end it), and you have to defend it at uncomfortable times.  You can't expect him to want this more than you.

A couple of other observations:

1. You can't add other issues, like controlling step kids, the you're asking the AP to be a counseor.

2. If his brother has DV issues, he is not the right guy.  The AP has to be a zero tolerance person…

3. You have two types of time to discuss with husband.  During a fight.  During times of peace.  Peace times is much easier.

 

One nuance to clarify:  If brother or anyone else has a history of DV AND they have conquered it, they might be an excellent AP.

However, if there is any hint of DV that was no owned or a r/s broke up over it.  GET SOMEONE ELSE.

Anger and DV are very different issues (IMO).  There is a line that gets crossed when you get physical with someone.


That is what I am speaking about when I say "slay one at at time".  Get rid of DV and then work on anger and control issues with kids.

Not saying to give up on progress made on those fronts and ignore them, just make sure you understand priorities.

"Which fire is going to burn me first?"  My vote is that the answer to that question is DV. 

FF

No, I'm not trying to throw in other issues into this mix, I'm just saying that the other issues are issues we are currently dealing with, and I'm currently giving a lot of thought to, and am setting higher boundaries around. None of this in any way would involve the AP, should we find one.

I'm definitely not timid with BPDh, but I'm just not sure I want to rock the boat when things aren't currently heated up. We've had a couple good weeks, and I hate to upset that.

I think BPDh now understands that I've never thought it was okay, and that I've put up with it because I do view him as having a mental illness(he HATES that I think that, but he can hate it all he wants, he doesn't get to say how I FEEL). I think I expressed my views pretty clearly when I brought up the DV in MC. I think his recent better behavior is because he got the picture that I was fed up, and told him no matter what his issue is, it doesn't justify abuse, and that I'm NOT going to let him blame ME for HIS actions.

I'd love to do that whole AP thing, but I'm pretty sure there is no way BPDh would agree to it. I mean, he doesn't want people to KNOW, so the fact that someone would, and that person would try to hold him accountable, would be something he would want to avoid at all costs.

Maybe I'm coming at it from the wrong angle, but I just can't see a way to present it to him that won't lead to him blaming me, getting super mad, and maybe even pulling up stakes. Plus, I just know him well enough to know that he will spend all his time and interactions with the AP trying to convince them that it's all ME, and that he didn't do anything wrong. He can be very convincing, and heck, he doesn't mind LYING. He's lied about several of the incidences, or twists things.

If things were still going badly, I'd be more apt to bring it up, but things are going good now. I think I'll wait, and if there is even a hint of him looking physically aggressive, I'll bring it up then. Not when things are hot, but after he's cooled down. I'm getting really good at walking away though before it gets to that point, so it could be a while. It's not like this happens all the time. It shouldn't happen EVER, though.

I guess I just want to see how long we have this peace we've recently found, and I'm not quite sure what's changed. Maybe the fact that he knows I'm having doubts about staying married? Maybe because I finally laid out just how I'm not buying into his whole justifying his abuse? I do think it happens because he has a mental illness, but he can obviously control his actions when he wants to. I mean, he isn't crazy.

I don't know, I'm just sort of confused right now. I am committed to making the physical incidences end, I'm just trying to figure out how to go about all this. It would be so much easier to broach this subject with him, if he was at all accountable, and if it had just happened. It's just hard to do it when things are good... .

Going back to the OP, Boundary in regards to physical abuse... ..

Do you want to do any of this?




A plan for a longer term fix would be like (example):

• telling him your values and boundaries on physical intimidation



• having a cooperative discussion of how to head it off when it starts emerging



• asking for an AP (and specifying the person) and



• backing off this for now, making it clear that you will insist on this if there is another event

If you want the "value/boundary" you have live it, make hard decisions to defend it, pay the price (there always is one) to keep it meaningful.

I hear you saying, "maybe someday, in someway, but not now. Our value/boundary of his self image trumps physical intimidation stuff... . That's OK.  It's a life choice we make. Maybe not a comfortable one, but they often aren't.

No one here wants to push you into this at this time - we don't want to want it more than you - that is a recipe for personal disaster. One really needs a deep commitment to this value to live it - draw a line, be constructive, but willing to back it up.

Question, how many times has this cycle occurred?

Over the course of four years, there have probably been about four or five unprovoked physical incidences. One where I was grabbed from behind for trying to walk away to give him time to cool down.

I do want to uphold my zero tolerance boundary, and we have had several discussions about it, but I do like the idea of having a cooperative discussion about how to head it off if we feel it could be going down that path. He hates talking of stuff like this though, but as he's in a better place right now, it's probably doable.

The way these incidences usually start is with one of us addressing something, then BPDh quickly escalates, or gets flooded as my therapist calls it. He responds with anger, blame, deflection, and it goes downhill from there. Even if I remain really calm, it doesn't seem to make much difference. The time he grabbed me and wrestled the hammer from me, I was hanging a picture of HIS daughter, and he took exception, so it wasn't like we were even fighting. He got violent based on his inaccurate interpretation of what I was doing(he viewed it as I was doing it to be crappy... .makes no sense to me, still). I couldn't have predicted that would happen. A couple of the incidences, I should have just walked away, because likely if I had stopped trying to communicate, or make things better, he wouldn't have done it. Now, I'm not making excuses for him, but now that I know he's likely to react this way, I have to protect myself, and NOT put myself in those situations. And HE needs to take ownership of his poor choices, and not resort to getting physical.

I'm definitely of a mind of asking about an AP, if there is another incident, especially if it happens now that I know to walk away. I mean, if it still happens, that's pretty severe, and then I won't even feel bad for bringing the subject up.

Yes, I know that no one can want this for me, and in fact, I do want to live in a DV free marriage. I was married for 19 years before, and DV was not part of that marriage.

I think I have a clear plan of what I want our marriage to be, and what I need to do to have the best possibility of that happening. I have to walk away, and I have to learn to let him calm down as soon as he gets heated. It will probably mean most things never get addressed or dealt with, as he's very conflict avoidant. I'll take a look later if I can handle a relationship like that long term. For now, I just want the physical intimidation to stop, so I'll do what I can to stop making things worse. HE has to be willing to self soothe though, and to just do whatever it takes so he doesn't cross that line. I can't be proactive for him, it would be nice if he'd want to deal with this, but because he likely won't, I guess that is why MY boundaries are essential.

I hope my explanation about how these incidences start, and my plans for how to deal with them in future(and have dealt with them at times in the past), help. If you have any suggestions, I'm willing to listen, and I'm always willing to try new ways to deal with this.

*mod*

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .