Boundary in regards to physical abuse...

[Depression = 72% of members]

I don't know, maybe one of these time, even though I'm not "hurt", maybe it would serve as a lesson to him to have me call the police. I just fear that will be the END of our marriage, and the end of him getting help.

In itself that would be a test of his commitment to you, which is more important to him, You? Appearances? Embarrassment? Being seen to be wrong?

If you dont top that list when it comes to the crunch, then his motivations are not in your best interest.

It takes a crisis for most people to decide their path forward

[waverider]

I don't know, maybe one of these time, even though I'm not "hurt", maybe it would serve as a lesson to him to have me call the police. I just fear that will be the END of our marriage, and the end of him getting help.

In itself that would be a test of his commitment to you, which is more important to him, You? Appearances? Embarrassment? Being seen to be wrong?

If you dont top that list when it comes to the crunch, then his motivations are not in your best interest.

It takes a crisis for most people to decide their path forward

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Skip]

To everyone reading…

A common model of women in domestic violence situation is a women trapped in a relationship by circumstance (pregnant or financially dependent, or ______) and a frustrated man (work problems or addiction or ______).

I'm not saying that any of these specific conditions exists here, but in the case above, its easy to see how calling the police might get the guy incarnated, the rent doesn't get paid, and a pregnant women is homeless.

Solving domestic abuse isn't as easy as it might seem and it requires dealing with the bigger picture.

Maybe this basic understanding will help us get to a more realistic solution for  Ceruleanblue.

We have a domestic violence protocol here:

https://bpdfamily.com/discussions/search-info4.htm

We have a DV article and workshop here:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/borderline-personality-disorder-and-physical-abuse

[Skip]

Ceruleanblue,

I don't think this is simple a values/boundaries matter - in matters of violence, serial adultery, crime, addiction - its more complicated than that.

Can we inventory the situation (here) and, in a separate thread on Legal, open a topic specifically and limited to forming a safety plan.

Here is a first pass on inventorying the situation from what I briefly read above.  Can we correct/complete this so that we are all dealing with the same understanding.

• All domestic violence is not equal, if I hear you, this is more physical intimidation than injury (not saying it's not significant, just inventorying).



• It sound like there is a trap here - the consequences of taking certain corrective actions beget consequences to you that are more concerning that than the physical intimidation.



• I don't think we should say you are "zero tolerance" - if you were zero tolerance you'd be gone or he'd have stopped (not a criticism, just defining where we are).



• While there is some external visibility (he took anger management class), there is not visibility to family, friends, or an accountability person who will step in and take him aside. (like a brother, best friend, mother, former coach, clergy)

Can you profile how the intimidation typically develops? Often there is a pattern of event and actions on both sides that escalate to the incident.  Understanding this, we might be able to come up with a way to recognize the emerging pattern early and redirecting its progression… a short term solution, while devising a longer term fix.

Skip

[Ceruleanblue]

In itself that would be a test of his commitment to you, which is more important to him, You? Appearances? Embarrassment? Being seen to be wrong?

If you dont top that list when it comes to the crunch, then his motivations are not in your best interest.

It takes a crisis for most people to decide their path forward

He's so narcissistic, that I think I already know this answer to this. I hate to use "always" statements, but in this case, it's actually pretty close to true: he almost always puts himself first(or his kids), and the couple incidences he's "listened to me/cared about my feelings" he resents, and never stops throwing in my face. I know that appearances, and being "right" are top of his list. I have to look out for my best interests, because he's just incapable of it due to his personality. And that's my job anyway, but it sure would be nice to have a spouse who has my back.

[Ceruleanblue]

•All domestic violence is not equal, if I hear you, this is more physical intimidation than injury (not saying it's not significant, just inventorying).

•It sound like there is a trap here - the consequences of taking certain corrective actions beget consequences to you that are more concerning that than the physical intimidation.

•I don't think we should say you are "zero tolerance" - if you were zero tolerance you'd be gone or he'd have stopped (not a criticism, just defining where we are).

•While there is some external visibility (he took anger management class), there is not visibility to family, friends, or an accountability person who will step in and take him aside. (like a brother, best friend, mother, former coach, clergy)

Thanks Skip! I find all of the above to be true.

I think if he'd ever really hurt me, I like to think I'd have left, and not come back unless he'd gotten extensive help. Heck, I don't want to be hurt! Plus, I've always had very strong opinions about men who abuse women(and it's way less than favorable). Having said that though, I do feel someone with a mental health disorder does make it so it's not as cut and dried as when you are dealing with someone who doesn't. Now, if I thought my life was in danger, or that he'd actually cause bodily harm, even that would have to go out the window. I mean, in this case, I have to come first, because there is no way, whatever someone's "issue" is, that I'm going to pay a price(and my family pay a price), by me being injured or dead.

I don't really feel trapped. I feel I'm here by choice. I spend a lot of time in T trying to figure out "why" I stay, and she agrees I don't suffer from low self esteem, and she's also aware that my faith factors into this. I didn't know what I was getting when I took my marriage vows, for sure, but I wouldn't leave him if he had cancer, and I sort of look at this in the same way. He's trying(although this waxes and wanes), and I'm working on ME too. My T has said, and I agree, that I can work on me, and try to hang in there in this marriage, see if he gets better, use the tools I've found here, and still work on the marriage. To me, that's sort of a win/win. I'm the sole focus, and then the marriage(not doing things to make things worse).

I also agree that to most people, they don't know what he is at home(this isn't just isolated to home though, judging from past incidences in public and with other people). So, in that way he sort of "saves face". He has told me he's told his DBT therapist of the most recent physical incident, but I'm not sure that's true. Honesty is a huge issue with him. He's spent a lot of time in DBT just lately painting me black, and DBT T seems to be buying into it. That is so disheartening. I also sometimes wonder if there is a cultural difference, as he seems to want to appear very dominant and "macho". I'm white, he's half Mexican, but he strongly associates with the Mexican side of his family. He's sometimes joked about that whole "get back in the kitchen, and make me a sandwich" mentality, but I wonder if on some level he buys into that, or thinks it's macho? He does have a strong need to dominate/control, and he doesn't want to be accountable to ANYONE. I think accountability would really help, but I don't think it's something I can suggest to him? Or is it?

[Skip]

He does have a strong need to dominate/control, and he doesn't want to be accountable to ANYONE. I think accountability would really help, but I don't think it's something I can suggest to him? Or is it?

I've identified some rationale and some recovery steps in my earlier post, and you will need to work through this systematically and in a cooperative way with your H.

However, bottom line, if you can't charm him into taking on an accountability partner in the next 120 day, you should leave. Or you need to just accept the physicality as part of your life.

This is your reality.

Now many you try to charm him into the accountability partner but not push him to breaking, and then when there is another incident you ask him to leave until he agrees to do this.

Carefully getting this out in the open is what you have to do.  The visibility is a great deterrent.

The value and boundary here is that there will be no physicality in the relationship - the boundary is the accountability partner must be in place.

There are steps to get to this place, you don't have to bomb him with it next week.

------> Can you tell us how the physical incidents typical evolve.  What does he do,m what do you do, how does it build to a explosion?

[waverider]

If his number 1 priority is his public image then not allowing abuse to be kept private is probably important. Dont allow it to be skeleton in the closet. The issue has to be instinctively part of number 1 priority

[maxsterling]

I feel the need to chime in here because my wife has been physically abusive toward me directly, also been violent by slamming doors and throwing or breaking things, physically abusive towards herself, and verbally threatening to be physically abusive.  It's been stated in previous comments, but I will echo this:

Domestic Violence is a complicated issue.

Simply advising someone to "leave" an abusive relationship is not always the best advice, and often not helpful.  Also not helpful is suggesting that the target of the abuse is in any way responsible, or the abuse is in any way within his/her control, or that actions we take can prevent someone else from abusing. 

My strong opinion here is that boundaries regarding physical abuse are universal and do not need to be communicated or stated.  Really what you need is a safety plan.  This is a plan thought out beforehand of what to do when the abuse begins again (and it will).  At the point physical safety is in question - there's no need to continue communication, validation, or considering the needs of the abuser.  When physical safety is in question, one needs only to be concerned with his/her safety plan.  My safety plan is like this:

- ALWAYS park my car such that I am not blocked in. 

- Keep some extra provisions in my car

- Contact friends/family beforehand to know of safe places where I can stay.

- Keep my phone charged and on my person as much as is reasonably possible.  If things feel especially tense, I even take it to the bathroom with me and sleep with it beneath my pillow. 

- Avoid situations where my wife can trap me in a room.  If she is being verbally abusive, that's my cue to leave the room and into another room where I can lock the door.  Normally this results in her trying to kick the door down.  I won't open the door under ANY circumstances. 

[HappyNihilist]

Ceruleanblue, I know you love your husband and have compassion and understanding for him.

An abusive relationship is unhealthy for both partners. It's best to either change or leave such a dynamic. But, if you can't do one of those, then you have to accept it for what it is. And what that means for you.

However, bottom line, if you can't charm him into taking on an accountability partner in the next 120 day, you should leave. Or you need to just accept the physicality as part of your life.

This is your reality.

Can you think of someone in your husband's life who might make a good accountability partner?

In the meantime, it's important to develop a good, clear safety plan. Breaking down how these situations evolve is a great start. 

[Ceruleanblue]

Okay, maybe this is a dumb question, but what exactly is an accountability partner? I think I sort of know, but want to make sure.

Does the accountability partner need to know that there has been domestic violence? That might be an issue, because BPDh doesn't want to admit there has been, or he blames me. He's had moments where he's said he knows his actions weren't okay, but he then goes back to blaming.

How does the accountability partner help? What are the duties? I just fear that BPDh will lie about me, and the person might buy into the whole "it's Ceruleanblue's fault", because BPDh can be very convincing and manipulative. Very.

I think this is a great idea, but I just fear broaching the subject with BPDh. Things have been calmer the last couple weeks, and he's in "try harder to be nice" mode, and I hate to set him off. Any ideas how I can approach this that might not trigger him?

[HappyNihilist]

There are no dumb questions, Ceruleanblue. I'll try to answer you, but I know that Skip will be able to give a better answer and explanation.

Accountability requires him to accept responsibility for his actions and stay true to his commitments.

Without accountability, he will keep doing what all unaccountable people do - make excuses and deflect their energy away from the root cause of the problem (themselves).

An accountability partner helps ensure he is staying on the right path, accepting responsibility for his behavior, and working on himself. It's important that it's someone your husband can trust and be completely open with. He needs a safe place to process his behavior and express his feelings, and he also needs to know that he can reach out for support when he feels himself slipping.

Does the accountability partner need to know that there has been domestic violence? That might be an issue, because BPDh doesn't want to admit there has been, or he blames me.

Yes, the accountability partner has to know that there has been domestic violence. None of this works without honesty and transparency.

If your husband won't admit that there's been domestic violence, then you have to find a safe, careful way to bring this to light. He is wrapped up in his self-image, which he can continue to maintain for himself as long as there's no visibility of his abusive behavior.

The value and boundary here is that there will be no physicality in the relationship - the boundary is the accountability partner must be in place.

There are steps to get to this place, you don't have to bomb him with it next week.

I completely understand that you don't want to set him off and trigger him. You don't have to figure everything out right now.  

For the short term, I think it would be helpful to formulate a clear safety plan.

Can you tell us how the physical incidents typical evolve.  What does he do,m what do you do, how does it build to a explosion?

[Cat Familiar]

My experience with a spouse who behaved violently is that over time, the level of violence increased. It started with verbal abuse. Then it graduated to grabbing and shoving. Then hitting and choking.

My concern for you, CB, is that you're minimizing his bad behavior, just because you haven't yet been seriously injured. Don't do that. He's totally responsible for his actions, mental illness or not.

[Sunfl0wer]

Did we help you set any clear implementable boundaries around physical abuse?

What are they?

[Skip]

Okay, maybe this is a dumb question, but what exactly is an accountability partner? … I think this is a great idea, but I just fear broaching the subject with BPDh. Things have been calmer the last couple weeks, and he's in "try harder to be nice" mode, and I hate to set him off. Any ideas how I can approach this that might not trigger him?

HappyNihilist describes it well - I'd only add that you both have access to the AP and they "monitor"' things.  Say its his older brother. One night he losses his temper.  You call the AP. AP then gets involved - he asks the two of you to lunch to talk about it - if its been going on a while, he may just call his brother.  He is part of the Safety Plan, a place for you to go to if things get rough…

This is one example.

It gives visibility and ends any game-playing.

One of the greatest tools in situations like this is visibility.  In your husband's case, with his image concerns, it will likely be very effective.

It's not going to be an easy step for him. You are going to need to need to need to be vulnerable, open, cooperative, constructive, honest, and firm.

[formflier]

 

Normally, APs have some "regular" howgozit type contacts with the person they are holding accountable.

So... maybe at the start... .once a week the AP calls your hubby, and at some point in the conversation directly asks how he is doing on controlling his urges to get physical.

In my experience, the key is that at some point the AP is someone your husband can be "real" with.

Don't be shocked if there is a rocky start... ."I'm just doing this to appease my wife... .you know I don't REALLY have a problem.  If she wouldn't xyz... "

Eventually, "I have a problem with (whatever he calls it).  I can't believe I have hurt my wife... .can you help me through this... ."

FF

[fiveplus]

     I was reading your replies and they reminded me of myself, not too long ago.

My husband was all about how things LOOKED on the outside. What would others think of him? What might people say if they saw how he talked to his family?

I used to "control" his outbursts and angry behavior by telling him that I was going to tell all of our friends exactly what he had said to me and , if he lied about it, I was going to bust him on that too.  And it did make him stop and think before he reacted. He did NOT want others to think bad of him.

But no matter how much I tried to make him see the true consequences of his actions... .lack of trust, no intimacy, superficial relationships... .all he cared about was how it LOOKED.

And I still put up with alot of "silent" abuse... .silent treatment, snide remarks, blaming, taking off when he was mad... .because things were "better" and I didn't want to trigger any angry outbursts, or give him a reason to leave.

You are, just as I was, feeding the beast, just to keep him happy. He DOES have an illness. BUT enabling it by minimizing violence and abusive behavior is hurting you both.

He did not hurl you into a table thinking,  "this will only scare her or bruise her, nothing serious." He didn't KNOW what might happen or how hurt you might be... .yet he did it anyway.

I believe the people here truly care about what happens to you. Yes, changing the status quo will trigger him... he will hate having things change. But either things REALLY change, and you deal with what happens, or you keep making excuses, never deal with the uncomfortable issues, and they just stay the same. It's really up to you. good luck.

[Ceruleanblue]

I'm thinking over the whole accountability partner thing. His older brother actually might be an option, or even his younger brother. One issue there though is that, neither brother understands why BPDh acts the way he does, and I worry that blood is thicker than water? They are a tight family.

Also, I honestly can't say that the level of physical incidences have ever increased in level. There hasn't been an escalation in it, and while I agree that he didn't take time to wonder if flinging me across the room(he didn't mean for me to hit the table), he also didn't do it to hurt me, per se. He grabbed me so I wouldn't leave the room. I'm NOT defending, or minimalizing, and I do think it's abuse, but I also don't want to blow it all out of proportion either. Trust me, I would NOT be in a relationship where I was getting physically injured. You may think I'm minimizing, but I totally disagree with that.

I think I'm being realistic, and I'm calling a spade, a spade. What he does is wrong, but I haven't been injured, and if I had been, I'd have taken different steps than I have so far. I'm establishing a boundary, we've talked extensively about the issue, and I have a plan in place should it happen again. He knows I'm taking it seriously, and I'm not saying it won't ever happen again, but I don't fear he'll ever truly hurt me, or I WOULD NOT BE HERE. Now, before you tell me that "all abused women have said that", spare yourselves. I get that, but give me some credit. I've left relationships where there had NOT been physical abuse, but I did not feel safe(physically and emotionally). At the age of 47, I do consider myself a pretty good judge of behavior, I'm super intuitive(I hate to use the word psychic, but it's akin to that), and it was these same skills that got me out of one bad relationship, and if I have to leave this one, I will.

Obviously, I don't feel I'm in danger, and no matter what I say, some won't believe that, and will choose to believe that no one can ever get better, or do better(me included). I can honestly say that BPDh has been better lately, and I can tell he's really trying to do better. It may or may not last, but we are taking some good steps forward. He's going to ask his DBT T tomorrow what he needs to do to get into group.

And I'm just trying to come up with a way to address the possibility of an accountability partner. He seems more okay with knowing I've reached the end of my tolerance for his physical-ness(abuse), than I'm sure he'll be about having to talk about it with someone. I just know that will not go over well, just like it didn't in MC. His answer when I brought up the physical incidences in MC were to blame me, and take zero responsibility. I'm just wondering how an accountability partner might deal with that, because as of now, BPDh isn't wanting to take any ownership for his actions... .

[waverider]

I'm thinking over the whole accountability partner thing. His older brother actually might be an option, or even his younger brother. One issue there though is that, neither brother understands why BPDh acts the way he does, and I worry that blood is thicker than water? They are a tight family.

This may run into problems with potential triangulation due to invested interest of the third party. I have found getting family members involved only runs so far then they turn against you as you are 'critcizing" their gene pool. If it goes wrong you can't just drop them out often scene, it can have own going problems.

[formflier]

I'm thinking over the whole accountability partner thing. His older brother actually might be an option, or even his younger brother. One issue there though is that, neither brother understands why BPDh acts the way he does, and I worry that blood is thicker than water? They are a tight family.

The "why" doesn't so much matter.  Define tightly what "physical" will mean and that is what the AP is about.

Slay one dragon at a time.  Arguing and other r/s issues can wait.

Be very careful about family members.  It will either work really well or not at all.

If DV is an "open secret" ... .or "closed secret" in their family, then this is explosive stuff.

If your hubby is the only guy that has started down this path, then it could work quite well.

Which way do you think his family is?

FF

[Skip]

I'm thinking over the whole accountability partner thing. His older brother actually might be an option, or even his younger brother. One issue there though is that, neither brother understands why BPDh acts the way he does, and I worry that blood is thicker than water? They are a tight family.

The "why" doesn't so much matter.  Define tightly what "physical" will mean and that is what the AP is about.

Slay one dragon at a time.  Arguing and other r/s issues can wait. (this is about physical abuse, not couples therapy)

Be very careful about family members.  It will either work really well or not at all.

If DV is an "open secret" ... .or "closed secret" in their family, then this is explosive stuff.

  If your hubby is the only guy that has started down this path, then it could work quite well.

Which way do you think his family is?

FF

I think FF is right on all counts here - these are critical points.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I'm not trying to slay a lot of dragons at once, really we've just had two huge ongoing issues: his letting his adult kids have too much control, and his anger. We aren't currently fighting over either, I'm just trying to set boundaries in regards to ME, about both. If I only focus on one issue, the other one will once again, get totally out of hand, I fear. I'm not willing to back my boundaries down for him, to solely work on just one. His choices are still his, but as he's always testing boundaries, I'm not willing to let any slide, just to gain ground in another area, if that makes sense. I've done that before, and greatly regretted it. He uses guilt, and me being a pleaser to get his own way, and get me to back down on a boundary. I'm wise to that now.

My boundaries are just protective though, so I don't really view it as slaying a dragon, or expecting any change in him.

I'm rethinking the AP being his brother, as they are a tight knit bunch, and his brother has had DV issues in the past. Now, I know he got past this, as my sister in law left him for it, and she'd a tough nut, she would not stand for it again, I know. I just think that his brother may be too close to home for this, and I think BPDh might manipulate him.

As far as I know, that wasn't DV in the FOO, from spouse to spouse, but there was physical punishment of the kids at times. I think it was actually rare. I just think the AP is probably best not being a family member, although his siblings seem far less dysfunctional than BPDh(or his adult kids).

I still have to broach the subject somehow with BPDh, as things have been so much better, I'm afraid bringing it up will send him on a downward spiral and end his recent efforts. It's cowardly, but I hate to upset the apple cart right now.

[Skip]

really we've just had two huge ongoing issues: his letting his adult kids have too much control, and his anger.

Just an observation… you have intimated several times is this thread that installing ":)V prevention"  may not worth getting him upset. To be truthful, if you are timid about this, its not going to work.  For this to work it has to be very important to you, you have to be very committed to it (which means willing to walk away if reasonable efforts don't end it), and you have to defend it at uncomfortable times.  You can't expect him to want this more than you.

A couple of other observations:

1. You can't add other issues, like controlling step kids, the you're asking the AP to be a counseor.

2. If his brother has DV issues, he is not the right guy.  The AP has to be a zero tolerance person…

3. You have two types of time to discuss with husband.  During a fight.  During times of peace.  Peace times is much easier.

[formflier]

 

One nuance to clarify:  If brother or anyone else has a history of DV AND they have conquered it, they might be an excellent AP.

However, if there is any hint of DV that was no owned or a r/s broke up over it.  GET SOMEONE ELSE.

Anger and DV are very different issues (IMO).  There is a line that gets crossed when you get physical with someone.


That is what I am speaking about when I say "slay one at at time".  Get rid of DV and then work on anger and control issues with kids.

Not saying to give up on progress made on those fronts and ignore them, just make sure you understand priorities.

"Which fire is going to burn me first?"  My vote is that the answer to that question is DV. 

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

No, I'm not trying to throw in other issues into this mix, I'm just saying that the other issues are issues we are currently dealing with, and I'm currently giving a lot of thought to, and am setting higher boundaries around. None of this in any way would involve the AP, should we find one.

I'm definitely not timid with BPDh, but I'm just not sure I want to rock the boat when things aren't currently heated up. We've had a couple good weeks, and I hate to upset that.

I think BPDh now understands that I've never thought it was okay, and that I've put up with it because I do view him as having a mental illness(he HATES that I think that, but he can hate it all he wants, he doesn't get to say how I FEEL). I think I expressed my views pretty clearly when I brought up the DV in MC. I think his recent better behavior is because he got the picture that I was fed up, and told him no matter what his issue is, it doesn't justify abuse, and that I'm NOT going to let him blame ME for HIS actions.

I'd love to do that whole AP thing, but I'm pretty sure there is no way BPDh would agree to it. I mean, he doesn't want people to KNOW, so the fact that someone would, and that person would try to hold him accountable, would be something he would want to avoid at all costs.

Maybe I'm coming at it from the wrong angle, but I just can't see a way to present it to him that won't lead to him blaming me, getting super mad, and maybe even pulling up stakes. Plus, I just know him well enough to know that he will spend all his time and interactions with the AP trying to convince them that it's all ME, and that he didn't do anything wrong. He can be very convincing, and heck, he doesn't mind LYING. He's lied about several of the incidences, or twists things.

If things were still going badly, I'd be more apt to bring it up, but things are going good now. I think I'll wait, and if there is even a hint of him looking physically aggressive, I'll bring it up then. Not when things are hot, but after he's cooled down. I'm getting really good at walking away though before it gets to that point, so it could be a while. It's not like this happens all the time. It shouldn't happen EVER, though.

I guess I just want to see how long we have this peace we've recently found, and I'm not quite sure what's changed. Maybe the fact that he knows I'm having doubts about staying married? Maybe because I finally laid out just how I'm not buying into his whole justifying his abuse? I do think it happens because he has a mental illness, but he can obviously control his actions when he wants to. I mean, he isn't crazy.

I don't know, I'm just sort of confused right now. I am committed to making the physical incidences end, I'm just trying to figure out how to go about all this. It would be so much easier to broach this subject with him, if he was at all accountable, and if it had just happened. It's just hard to do it when things are good... .

[Skip]

Going back to the OP, Boundary in regards to physical abuse... ..

Do you want to do any of this?

in a separate thread on Legal, open a topic specifically and limited to forming a safety plan.

Can you profile how the intimidation typically develops? Often there is a pattern of event and actions on both sides that escalate to the incident.  Understanding this, we might be able to come up with a way to recognize the emerging pattern early and redirecting its progression… a short term solution

… while devising a longer term fix.

A plan for a longer term fix would be like (example):

• telling him your values and boundaries on physical intimidation



• having a cooperative discussion of how to head it off when it starts emerging



• asking for an AP (and specifying the person) and



• backing off this for now, making it clear that you will insist on this if there is another event

Maybe I'm coming at it from the wrong angle, but I just can't see a way to present it to him that won't lead to him blaming me, getting super mad, and maybe even pulling up stakes. Plus, I just know him well enough to know that he will spend all his time and interactions with the AP trying to convince them that it's all ME, and that he didn't do anything wrong. He can be very convincing, and heck, he doesn't mind LYING. He's lied about several of the incidences, or twists things.

If you want the "value/boundary" you have live it, make hard decisions to defend it, pay the price (there always is one) to keep it meaningful.

I hear you saying, "maybe someday, in someway, but not now. Our value/boundary of his self image trumps physical intimidation stuff... . That's OK.  It's a life choice we make. Maybe not a comfortable one, but they often aren't.

No one here wants to push you into this at this time - we don't want to want it more than you - that is a recipe for personal disaster. One really needs a deep commitment to this value to live it - draw a line, be constructive, but willing to back it up.

Question, how many times has this cycle occurred?

[Ceruleanblue]

Over the course of four years, there have probably been about four or five unprovoked physical incidences. One where I was grabbed from behind for trying to walk away to give him time to cool down.

I do want to uphold my zero tolerance boundary, and we have had several discussions about it, but I do like the idea of having a cooperative discussion about how to head it off if we feel it could be going down that path. He hates talking of stuff like this though, but as he's in a better place right now, it's probably doable.

The way these incidences usually start is with one of us addressing something, then BPDh quickly escalates, or gets flooded as my therapist calls it. He responds with anger, blame, deflection, and it goes downhill from there. Even if I remain really calm, it doesn't seem to make much difference. The time he grabbed me and wrestled the hammer from me, I was hanging a picture of HIS daughter, and he took exception, so it wasn't like we were even fighting. He got violent based on his inaccurate interpretation of what I was doing(he viewed it as I was doing it to be crappy... .makes no sense to me, still). I couldn't have predicted that would happen. A couple of the incidences, I should have just walked away, because likely if I had stopped trying to communicate, or make things better, he wouldn't have done it. Now, I'm not making excuses for him, but now that I know he's likely to react this way, I have to protect myself, and NOT put myself in those situations. And HE needs to take ownership of his poor choices, and not resort to getting physical.

I'm definitely of a mind of asking about an AP, if there is another incident, especially if it happens now that I know to walk away. I mean, if it still happens, that's pretty severe, and then I won't even feel bad for bringing the subject up.

Yes, I know that no one can want this for me, and in fact, I do want to live in a DV free marriage. I was married for 19 years before, and DV was not part of that marriage.

I think I have a clear plan of what I want our marriage to be, and what I need to do to have the best possibility of that happening. I have to walk away, and I have to learn to let him calm down as soon as he gets heated. It will probably mean most things never get addressed or dealt with, as he's very conflict avoidant. I'll take a look later if I can handle a relationship like that long term. For now, I just want the physical intimidation to stop, so I'll do what I can to stop making things worse. HE has to be willing to self soothe though, and to just do whatever it takes so he doesn't cross that line. I can't be proactive for him, it would be nice if he'd want to deal with this, but because he likely won't, I guess that is why MY boundaries are essential.

I hope my explanation about how these incidences start, and my plans for how to deal with them in future(and have dealt with them at times in the past), help. If you have any suggestions, I'm willing to listen, and I'm always willing to try new ways to deal with this.

[babyducks]

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