BPDFamily.com

 :)

Hi everyone

I took a brief break from this board to post on the undecided board and then I realized I am still committed to staying.

One of the ongoing dilemmas in my relationship is that my partner, who has been physically separated from his wife for over 3 years, says he filed for divorce. I had been asking him for the papers since June and I finally took it upon myself to look him up in his county this week to see if he filed or not. What I found really upset me. Not only did I find he had not filed, I also found out there was a lawsuit against him. Or so it seemed. After talking to my father and a friend I decided to confront him on this. He claims not only did he file but that the lawsuit was against his wife and his name was merely attached. My father had advised me not to accuse him of being a liar but to simply state what I found and let my partner figure it out. So I did that and my partner claimed either his lawyer didn't file or the county clerk didn't file. So I gave him one week to fix this before I spoke to him again about it.

To make matters even more complicated as a result of updating my operating system on my phone I found an old text I saved from 3 years ago where he answered my question "are you married" with an indirect answer which misled me and as a result allowed me to start another online relationship with yet another married man who was living with his wife at the time. At the time I met my current partner I had recently been very hurt in a similar situation and had sworn never to do that again so naturally my partner had to hide the fact that he was married and living with his wife. I had posted about this previous failed online relationship 3 years ago on the social network I met my partner on so he knew exactly how I felt about those kind of relationships. I sent my partner a copy of this text yesterday without any comment. He of course was very upset  by this and told me he was going offline. We are currently in a LDR and he is in the process of and has been in the process of moving to my location for the 3 years we've been together.   I talked to him about this  and he reminded me he already apologized and  I needed to forgive him. I told him he needed to apologize as many times as it took for me to be able to forgive him.

In the meantime we ended up getting a big fight this afternoon after he texted me on my way to a meeting. I'm really stuck. I'm going to have to print out the boundaries article. Its 5am and I've been up for an hour and I finally decided to get up and write this topic.  lol

I sound like a broken record on this, but, why not tell this man this is a very clear situation of: you will work on forgiving him for past lies, but this r/ship is on hold until he does file for divorce and show you the filed document with a "filed" stamp on it.

Compounding the past lie and the current "not divorced" situation, it seems likely he is still lying to you now or lying again. Your inquiry this week was a chance for him to make a clean breast of it. He didn't, and now is saying another almost certainly untrue thing about how others have not done their job. Very very unlikely. Also, going along, he's been telling you that the wife is "contesting" it and that's why it's slow. Well, if it's not filed, there is nothing to contest. This too is a story.

I think you're fated to go around in circles so long as you are asking him to prove something he cannot prove because it isn't true. Giving him a week to prove he did it already will compound the problem if he didn't, because if he files now, he'll prove to you he lied earlier.

What do you want? If you learn he was lying all this time is that an actual deal breaker? If so, continue on the current course and it will become clear. Or do you intend to forgive all the lying so far if he now files?

If so, you can just tell him you'll resume the r/ship as soon as he shows you the file-stamped divorce pleading, and you don't care about the date. But not till then. If you take that stance you'll be giving him a huge out. He may be very relieved and be able to proceed, because this is something he CAN do, rather than the current impossible job of proving he did something he did not do.

He seems to have some resistance to actually getting divorced and moving, which may be a deeper underlying challenge.

Patient and clear, the hold up on moving is he filing back taxes that his wife was responsible for supervising when he was injured and they were running a business together. He claims when they were living together he did not feel married to her which is why he did not tell me he was married. He said he would not say that today. He also claims he often has problems with filing clerks. He claims his wife threatened to sue him for all he had which is why he put the divorce on hold initially. If the documents are posted and they show the correct dates then he is off the hook. If they are not posted or do not show the correct dates then we have a problem. I would have checked up on him the first time he told me he filed for divorce but at that time I didn't know him well enough to know he might be lying.

I think there is next to zero chance there are documents with the right dates.

Assuming I'm right, many people would find the degree of lying and the ongoing lying a deal-breaker, but I am not hearing that from you.  So. Do you see how the current conversation, which focuses on whether he did the right thing in the past, is setting up ongoing problems because if there is no document, he is still stuck and the stories may get even taller?

If you are going to forgive him for the past lies, why not do it now, and give him a window to actually initiate the divorce now, which I thought you were going to do from your post on Undecided?

Patient and clear, I gave him until Friday to show me that he filed the documents on the correct dates. If he is not able to then I will have to put the relationship on hold. I do not know if I can forgive him so that is part of the problem. I violated my own values in order to be in a relationship with him. When I found out he was married 3 years ago I chose to continue on because I thought I was in love with him. He did ask his wife to move out the day after I find out and he did tell me on that day he did ask for a divorce. In terms of the actual filing that I do not know and I am working on finding out.

 

Unicorn2014,

It sounds like you want his PATTERN of behavior to change... .correct?

If this is a single issue... .and not a pattern... .then Friday may be a good deadline. 

If it is a pattern... .then you will have to let time elapse... .focus on his deeds... .not his words.

All of the issues he has brought up (that I have read here) don't seem to be "real" reasons... .they are details.

If someone wants to be divorced... .they get divorced.

taxes, lawsuits, clerks... .all of that... .those are all details.

FF

FF, I told him I need to see the papers by Friday with dates on them or else we're going to have a problem. He knows what I'm asking for. I should've asked for them when he first told me he was getting divorced and I didn't know any better. Part of the problem is he owned a business with his wife so that complicates things. I know others in that situation and it's not a short process. Then there's the dividing of assets. I am confident I am taking the right plan of action now. I hope I don't have to deal with no papers and if I do I'm sure I'll be asking for help here.

Hi unicorn,

I know you have been struggling with this for a while, and that problem solving has been difficult.

As I read through the posts in this thread I get a little befuddled on what problem you are trying to solve.

You can only change, control and effect your behavior and actions.   Not his.   

It's good that you are taking action.   


Would you like help on boundaries?   Do you think you crossed some in this exchange?   What boundaries do you think got crossed?

'ducks

Baby ducks , I crossed my own boundaries, not somebody else's, by allowing myself to continue to love a married man. I thought that him telling me he told her to leave and  she earned a divorce was enough. I took him at his word that he was filing. I didn't know any better . I am working on putting my own boundaries back in place. I'm befuddled that this is a staying board and yet I have yet to feel encouraged to stay by the posts made to me on this board. It's not my fault this man is acting this way. I thought we were supposed to love people in spite of their flaws and that that's what this board was all about? I'm a little confused by some of the harshness I seem to be experiencing here. I should add he claimed he filed which I am waiting to find out.

Unicorn2014,

   

You are correct... .you are not at fault or responsible for the actions of someone else. 

I also want to give you a big thumbs up for the insight into the boundaries that you crossed. 

Many of the "lessons" that I have learned on this board have been about me looking at myself in the mirror... and considering the actions that I have done.  At times... that is tough stuff to process.

It's also good stuff to process because your actions are within your control to change... .if you determine they need to be changed.  Only you can make that determination.

Staying board

I'll let staff point you in the right direction on the "rules of engagement" on the board... .but I'll give you my "plain English" view.

Again... .my interpretation... .staff will likely follow up.

The staying board is not about telling people to stay or to go.  It is about having a place to discuss the skills needed to stay... .to discuss the issues that come up when a decision has been made to stay in a LTR with someone that displays traits of BPD. 

You should never get a "run message" on this board  In other words... nobody should ever say "you should leave him"

Staff monitors for that kind of thing.

I'm sorry you have experienced harshness on this board.  I would encourage you to keep posting... .keep answering questions... .keep educating yourself about your options.

This board has made a monumental difference in my life and my r/s.

There were times when I was asked "hard questions"... .that was uncomfortable... .but it helped clarify the reality of the situation... .so I could make better decisions.

Looking forward to future posts and helping you get the r/s that you want...

FF

Thank you FF. Some people post here that are not in a r/s with a pwBPD. I'm trying to stay which is why I'm here.

I should add when I met my partner I had already been violating my own boundaries with other people but never to that extreme. I guess in some ways I feel like I'm getting blamed by allowing him to act that way. I just know I'm in a very uncomfortable position now of having asked for what I need to continue with this person and I hope he can give it to me. All I'm asking for is for him to show me he did the things he said he did. If he had not said he was filing for divorce I never would've continued with him. That part I was clear about with him from the start, before we even met in person.

 

Again... .

I've been in the position where I realized I had done stuff... that I wished I hadn't... .

That sucks... .

My hope for you is that you can use the discomfort to motivate yourself to seek out education about what you face... .

There is an "order to the disorder"... .it seems weird to "nons" why they (pwBPD) sometimes do things... .but once you realize there is a "reason" (even if you don't agree with it)... .

Now... .there is something that you can face... .there is "something" that you can try to understand... .

Life can get better with a pwBPD... .there is no way to tell how much better your r/s can be... .

Just like there is no way to tell how much more improvement my r/s will make.

However... .once you realize the "tools" from this website work... .that will give you hope... .that will take power away from the disorder and give it back to you!

You can do this!  

Break it down to small steps... .read a lesson a day.  

That is just as critical as the interactions "on the boards" with people like me.

Staff work very hard to have good content in the lessons... .take advantage of that.   Ask questions about what you read over there!

 

FF

 

Boundaries:

Don't be in a rush to "reset" or "set" a boundary.

The milk has been spilled... .

I am much more interested in a discussion with you about what boundary you want... .than you setting it in a hurry.

Whatever boundary you eventually set... .you must protect like fort knox

If appropriate... .someday I will tell you about my first extinction burst... .I survived... .it went textbook from the lessons and what guys told me on here.

I felt empowered when it was all over... .

FF

Boy, I think this is an important nugget for you right now, unicorn:

FF, thank you, I did start reading through the lessons and I think doing it in a systematic way of a lesson a day and writing about it in my journal will help. I came into the relationship with broken boundaries. I'm actually reading a book called better boundaries. I read about extinction bursts. I'm trying to set boundaries with my partner around texting and it's hard. Thank you for your supportive comments. That's why I'm here!

Let's say on (Friday? or is it the end of the month?) you find that there never was a divorce filing.

Could you have a brand new ball-game at that moment? And a brand new position from which to negotiate relationship outcomes?

Because it's quite possible your fellow has been counting on you being a woman who would accept the status quo, more or less permanently.

But something in you has stirred and is changing. And if you should tell him to contact you if/when he has indeed filed for divorce, he would know he is in relation with a different woman. That would be a powerful change to the old dynamic. And perhaps the first time he has needed to make a choice.

I really, really like formflier's idea of taking your time right now.

Many... .I dare say most of us were the same way when we showed up here.  


Perfect example... .

Can I challenge you to start a new topic about your boundary with texting...

Maybe read a lesson or two about boundaries... .and then post about your current struggles with texting... .

I bet we can get you on the right road.

We can keep this thread going about the "big picture" stuff in your life...

You have have a therapist or counselor that you see locally?

Building a support system for YOU is critical.

bpdfamily is part of that.  Let's call it "one leg of the stool".

Another leg would be a local professional that you can work through "stuff" in your life.  

I have established relationships with several PhD type psychologists and therapists.  While I am not regularly seeing any of them right now the relationship with several of them is one that we occasionally correspond via email/phone.

If something came up... I could quickly get advice... .or set an appointment.  

They are all intimately familiar with me... .and my situation.

This is an incredibly valuable thing to have in my hip pocket.

FF

Katecat, the relationship is far too advanced to take that kind of approach. I don't think I've made it clear. We're engaged, my daughter calls him her stepdad. He's met my family, my church, my former therapist, my former sponsor, etc. On Friday if he has not given me what I've asked for I'm going to have to put the relationship on hold until he does and that will be very hard. This is not a good time. My daughter's birthday is coming up and he was going to be involved. He saw himself as being married to me, not his wife, and that's how he was conducting himself.

FF, Sure I can do that. In terms of professionals, I had one therapist for 7 years whom my partner is now working with. I just wrapped another year of therapy with another therapist. Both of my former therapists felt I could handle this on my own. I  spoke to my first therapist last week about this whole situation. I think the question is am I going to stand my ground on Friday if my partner does not give me what I ask for. I've talked to my dad, my former sponsor, and my former therapist about this situation as well as a new friend. I just really hope it doesn't come down to me having to set a boundary and say we need to put our relationship on hold until you can give me what I asked for. I really don't want to do that.

I did experience an extinction burst yesterday around texting which I will write about later.

Unicorn,

I'm sorry you feel posts are harsh or urging you to leave.  I don't see that (and I'm guessing mine may have been the ones you read slanting that way).  My suggestions are that you set up terms he actually might be able to meet, to stay.  Which, I'm guessing, involves him NOW taking the action you wanted him to take a long time ago.  As I've said several times above, possibly making you feel bad (and I'm sorry), I really doubt he will be able to produce papers with a correct date.  Not even sure what that would mean, as you already know they were not filed.  Anyone can now word process a documented with a correct "drafted on" date.  The issue is -- he didn't take the necessary steps to file.

So I fear you have set up a test he probably cannot pass, and that will lead to further lying.  You already know he HAD lied, so not sure what test you are administering that ends Friday.  It may or may not prove an additional lie.  But he has already lied in important and ongoing ways.

So.  As I said above, if lying is a deal breaker, you pretty much already know what you need to know.  If it is not a deal breaker -- if you need him to act right henceforth -- give him something he can actually succeed at.  That's why I'm suggesting you give him amnesty for past failures, but tell him now, he needs to actually file within a month (something realistically achievable) and then you will return to the r/s, or (as you suggested you were considering on your Undecided thread) tell him you will leave at that point if he has not proven he has filed for divorce.

Quite a few folks on here (including me) have stayed or tried to stay in BPD r/ships with the understanding that over some things, you have to be willing to walk away if the terms do not work for you.  Only by being willing to walk away, can some boundaries be secured.  I'm currently in that situation.  It doesn't mean I haven't followed a "Staying" approach.  Others here have set "I will leave if X continues" or "I will leave unless X happens" boundaries and their BPD partners have adjusted to allow the r/ship to continue.  You can't control how the BPD partner will respond to such a stance -- sometimes it "works" in terms of maintaining the r/s, and sometimes it results in the end of the r/s.  The approach here is to do what you need to do for you, and not key those decisions off of how your partner will react.

I think KateCat and you are actually saying the same thing.  That you make continuing in the r/s contingent on proof that he has actually filed.

Patient and clear, Yours are not the only ones I experience as harsh. I do not know that he did not file. All I know is they haven't been posted to the county website. If they are not there on Friday and he does not produce them then I will have to take a break from the relationship which I have no idea how I'm going to do. We are very much interdependent at this point and very much partners at this point. This isn't a casual dating relationship. This man is involved with my friends and family, church and recovery.

I don't even know if my daughter would side with me at this point. She's mad at his wife for contesting the divorce because she would like us to get married and have a baby so she can have a sibling. It is a big mess.

We've been in a relationship for three years, we just celebrated our third anniversary. I decided  in June of this year  to ask for the papers. Then a week ago I decided to look them up myself and found they weren't there.

Believe me I've talked to everyone in my life about this r/s, my priest, my former sponsor, my former therapists, parents, brother, friends, in meetings. So what I'm struggling with now is  that I didn't ask for the papers three ago and let it get this far. This isn't a dating relationship. I guess I don't know how to emphasize how serious this is. I don't how I'm going to hold the line of pausing the relationship on Friday if he can not produce the papers. He's making this about me and telling me his word should be good enough, telling me I'm acting like a lawyer, telling me I'll have what I'm asking for.  I have let some of my friends and family know this is what I'm doing but I do not know if I'm emotionally strong enough to hold this line. I'm going to need a lot of help if it comes down to that.

And yes you are right, when I found out last week that the divorce or dissolution papers were not posted I had a serious moment of doubt about the relationship and posted on the undecided board. Its funny, my former therapist also suggested giving him amnesty. Like I said I don't know if I can do that because if it turns out he's strung me along with for three years my fury is going to know no bounds.

Patient and clear, I am working on being able to walk away just as he working on moving where I am to be with me. It is not good timing. Basically I told him if he can not produce those papers I do not want to continue on with him until he can. I think what I am doing is working on setting up a boundary so if those papers are not in place by the time he relocates we will not see each other. Right now the relationship is LDR so that already has a boundary in place. I really hope it doesn't come down to this because previously I had worked out a plan with my former therapist that I would not end the relationship until my partner moved out to my area. We have been in a LDR for 3 years. At this point most of our relationship takes place over facetime, text, mail, and phone. I haven't seen him in person since June. Basically I think what I am doing is trying to set up a relationship I can live with when he moves out here. I told him the current status of our relationship is causing all kinds of problems with me, including my relationship to church.

I've worked in the family law sector, and I don't think you were foolish at all not to "figure out" sooner. There's nothing unusual about a complex, contested divorce dragging on for three years in the U.S. That's how we roll here.

However, if he wants to file now, he can do that in a very short time. Would you accept proof of a new divorce filing by Friday of this week? Because that may be something he can do if you give him the option.

  Unicorn.  Sounds super stressful.

Here's what I'm hearing:

(1) you think you may be so furious at him if it turns out he was lying all along that you aren't sure what the implications are for the r/ship

(2) it matters to you whether he's been lying, not just whether he now proceeds to get divorced with alacrity

(3) it will be an enormous loss if you need to end the r/ship or risk ending it

I think, interestingly, KateCat and I are both suggesting you consider whether you can or would want to let the lying issue go.

I'm guessing this is one of those things where he was ambivalent and over-sold the situation to you from the outset, saying he had filed.  Then either got complacent about it, or felt stuck, or otherwise got mired in the status quo.  Not saying it's defensible, but this situation got rolling a long time ago.  And -- you also do know he's lied a significant amount.  I keep saying this, but I doubt you are going to see a shift in facts on Friday.  He did lie -- he didn't file, it wasn't making its slow way through the courts and she was slowing it down by contesting it, blah blah blah.  That was not true.  That lying definitely occurred.

That's why I'm suggesting you search your heart NOW to decide the implications of the lying.  If you are ultimately going to let it go, I'd save the big guns for the forward-looking boundary, which has a decent chance of succeeding (by forward-looking, I mean: "I'll resume this r/s when you file and prove it".  I don't think telling him you'll engage with him when he has actually filed is all that earth-shaking a response from you.  It's remarkably generous.  He can get out of the fix he's in any time he chooses to.

I can hear that you are very scared about the implications of what you are going to find out.  Because you think it might mean the end.

I really think re-framing this as you setting a requirement that meets your needs that he can NOW meet, with an amnesty, may alleviate your sense of panic.  That can still all work out.  IF, that is, you think you can see your way toward forgiving the lying, which definitely occurred, we already know that.

 

More great counsel from patientandclear, I think.

It probably sounds right now as though people posting to your thread are saying, "Meh, no big deal he lied about filing for divorce." But I think most of us get that it is a huge deal.

I guess I sense that this is who he is, or at least who he has been in his life. A liar. A pathological one.

But he has been stuck in living this one big lie for a very long time. If we can put ourselves in his position at all, maybe we can see that this has been getting harder and harder for him, and now the vise is really tightening all the way. What can he do?

I think it's all about you now. You and your choices. And they are tough ones and they maybe deserve time and respect. If you make a decision right now, aren't you making it in a state of shock?

Patient and clear, I do not know that's he's lying. All I know is his divorce is not posted. He says either his lawyer didn't file or the county clerk didn't file. I'm actually not in a panic, I deeply sad. I don't want to have to let go of this relationship. I think I haven't done a very good job of communicating the situation here on this thread.

If this is what he's telling you now, it's not a great sign that he wants to turn over a new leaf.  :'(

His feeling of shame may be too great to face.

Katecat, I think my problem with this thread is we are assuming he's lying. I haven't made that assumption yet. What I have done is ask him to prove to me that what he said is true. If he doesn't do that then I will have a problem and I've let him know this as well as my friends and family so they can support me. I'm going to give him until Friday to prove himself and then if he doesn't I'm going to put the relationship on hold until he does. That's going to be very hard as we are in constant contact morning noon and night through telephone text message Facebook and FaceTime. We even follow each other on find friends. It's going to be a huge loss if I have to put the brakes on the relationship and I'm not sure how I'm going to be able to handle it. I even checked out the book on healing from abandonment to help prepare me for this possible loss.

I will fully admit to assuming he's lying. The concept of a "contested" divorce that doesn't appear in the county court record would be an utterly new one on me.

But it sounds as though you are prepared to take care of yourself now, and are moving forward. |iiii

Katecat, he says he filed and either his lawyer didn't file or the county clerk didn't file. He reminded me he's had these kinds of problem before. I'm going to assume he's telling the truth until I find out otherwise , which will be determined on Friday. I'm trying to stay away from the issue of accusing him of lying. I'm merely stating what my requirements are to move forward in the relationship . I really hope I can stand my ground if he doesn't give me what I ask for by Friday. We're just carrying on as if nothing is wrong and it makes me feel bad. We have an agreement not to talk about this until Friday so now I feel as if I'm preparing to say goodbye to the relationship. That's not good either. I really hope I don't have to put my foot down on Friday.

Unicorn2014,

I started to get back in this thread earlier... .but got sidetracked... .life with 8 kids can do that... .quite easily.

However... .I have been giving your situation a lot of thought... .especially since last thread I read (earlier today) was about your support system.

I'm now convinced that you have a good system... .and you have talked to plenty of people about this.

Do you believe that talking to more people about this situation will bring new ways of looking at it to light?

My input... .you've talked to plenty... .it seems that we are at a turning point... .a decision point... .

And... .the decision that you face on Friday will "clarify" a lot of things about your r/s. 

If he shows papers and they check out to be really filed... .then... .I think you can chalk it up to a messy divorce... .lots of details... maybe some avoidance of dealing with hard stuff.  But... .by and large... .if papers show up... .the big issue would seem to be ok.

If papers don't show up.  It's time to ask yourself the question... .":)id I have the r/s that I thought I had... ?"

Only you can answer that... .    And if you get to the point of answering that question... .please ignore what other people say or advise... .or want...

This is about you and your values...


The basis of most human relationships (IMO) is trust and mutual understanding of the "status" of the r/s.

Mutual understanding is (for example) both parties consider themselves boyfriend and girlfriend... .they are on the same page.

If one or the other of those get messed up... .that can be hard to recover from... .

If there is no trust... .and it becomes obvious that each party has had a very different "understanding" of what the r/s has been... .that is a tough place to recover a r/s from.   (there's not much to build on... )

You would be right to mourn in that situation... not for the r/s that you had... .but for the r/s you believed you had.

 

Hang in there... .

I'm hoping the papers show up...

FF

Let's clarify something... .

We are talking about a state and county in the United States... .correct?

I don't want to be assuming (there we go again... )   :)      


You don't have to give the state and locality... if you don't want to.  

I've been a government guy for a long time... .if we are talking about the United States... .and it truly is a contested divorce... .it will show up.

Period... .

For your sake... .I would love to be wrong about this... .I've been in clerks offices... searched court records in many different states... .all kinds of stuff.  The records aren't that hard to find.

FF

Boudnaries lesson... .a very important point.

Get "hope" out of this.

This is a statement about what you deserve... .about how you value yourself.

Boundaries protect you!


"If on Friday there are no filed divorce papers I will show the world that I will not be in a r/s with a person that has been carrying on a deception"

You don't have to use my statement... .but coming up with something like that... .simple... .to the point... .no waffling... .is important.

It's important to figure this out before Friday... .so that your response is automatic on Friday.  If you show weakness... .it will be exploited.

FF

Thank you FF, I just have one kid, a teen, so I don't have that distraction.

Yes I'm preparing to let go of the relationship if I have to and I really don't want to do that. I'm having a hard time accepting that it took me three years to look him up on his county website to see if he filed or not. Three years ago I hadn't gone through two suicide attempts with him, verbal abuse, lying about smoking, possibly lying about drinking, dysregulation, etc. it's hard to not ask him "did the papers come in yet?".

And yes we're talking about the us. He claims he filed and either his lawyer or the county clerk didn't do their job. When I told him I was going to call the county clerk he told me didn't want me getting involved. It's very hard for me to sit on my hands and do nothing until Friday . It's his lawyer I really need to talk to and he won't give me the lawyer's name. I asked him to have his lawyer contact me and that hasn't happened yet either. I guess we're just going to carry on usual until Friday. This is very tense for me.

In terms of the boundary yes I do need to come up with a sentence. I'm going to ask him if he's going to give me what I asked for and if he doesn't then I'm going to have to tell him we're going to have to put the relationship on hold until he does. That's going to be difficult because we're connected in all kinds of ways all over the Internet . I really do not want to do this. We even follow each other on find friends and share calendars. Our lives are really intertwined .

It's funny you're not the first person to talk about what I deserve but for me it's not about that. It's about what I can live with that's in line with my values and my ethics.

Unicorn, you have nothing whatsoever to feel bad, or foolish about. These years of ongoing trauma made it very unlikely you would ever "check," I think. 

Hey... .there is an proper... .and improper use of boundaries... .

I wouldn't feel right if I didn't point out a concern with your proposed use.

What you propose sounds manipulative... . it's about the other person doing something.

Listen... .you don't control whether he files or not... .whether he stays or leaves his wife.  

All of those things are up to him.

Your value should no have anything to do with him.

"I will not be in a r/s with deception in it... "  

That's a simple statement... .and it supports your values.

Using a boundary to get someone else to do something... .can be manipulative.  

If he has really filed... .and he is just proving it to you... then I think you are ok.

If he hasn't filed... .then you know he is a deceiver.  That is his character... .filing the papers after getting busted won't change his character.

FF

Thank you katecat, lately I've been showing him his old text messages where he's said some pretty awful things to me and he doesn't like that but I've been doing it in an attempt to set boundaries with him around texting and fighting which I will post about later.

I really appreciate your support. I'm really having a hard time with this. Like I said he's very intertwined with my life: friends, family, therapist, recovery, internet, etc. This is not going to be an easy break to take if I have to do that. I really hope I don't. We've had several borderline "break ups" where he's said some pretty awful things. I guess if I were to come up for a reason for doing this now it would be to show my daughter that there is a better way. She recently went through a very difficult breakup with her boyfriend and feel its my job to show her there is a better way to have relationships. So far I have not been successful. So let's just hope I get what I ask for on Friday.

FF he asked his wife to leave 3 years ago and they've been living apart since then. I understand what you are saying and I need to think really carefully about what I'm going to say. I'm not comfortable saying I won't be in a relationship with deception in it because he claims he filed those papers and that either his lawyer or the county clerk failed to do their jobs. I think I need to more phrase it along the lines of I can no longer be in a relationship with a married man who has not filed for divorce yet, I need to see proof before I can continue. I really want to stay away from accusing him of lying or deception. He has a learning disability so who knows what happened to those papers. I know what I need in a relationship and if I'm in a relationship with a married man, I need to see that he filed for divorce. Period. End of sentence. That's the ground I'm going to stand on. I am the one who allowed it to get to this point. I took him at his word that he filed. Now I need more then his word. He doesn't like this and  that's the way it goes.

The thing is... .you will know on Friday if his word is good or not.

This is bigger than papers... .papers are symptom... .don't get focused on minutiae and details... .

I also would suggest that you consider your "fix"... .to get back in your good graces.

If it turns out that he has not filed for three years... .how does filing "fix' the deception?

If Friday comes and goes without papers... .it's not about the papers anymore... .

My suggestion would be so stay away until he finalizes things... .otherwise... .you will most likely be back here in a year or two talking about setting a trial date... .getting a final decree.

If it has taken three years to file... .how long do you expect the divorce to take?

I applaud you for wanting to live your values for your daughter... .|iiii

That is the right attitude.

If your daughter was in a relationship with a deceiver... .and she caught him... .would fixing the deception she caught him in solve the problem?

What would you want for your daughter?

What kind of person would you want to father your future grand-kids?

How can you model that for your daughter?

FF

FF, actually my daughter did catch her ex boyfriend in a deception so it's already happened to her.

I do see your point, if he has not filed at all I have a bigger problem on my hands then I thought. He did tell me it might go to arbitration so he doesn't have to go to court. If he does not have papers for me on Friday I will have to tell him I stayed with him for three years because I was under the impression that he filed and now that I've found out he hasn't I can't continue on. I really hope it doesn't come down to that. I'm definitely not prepared to go through another breakup. I broke up with my first husband, my daughter's father, because he was an alcoholic and an addict and had untreated bipolar. I really don't want to go down this road again. My former therapist said I've had the two most difficult male personalities to deal with: bipolar and borderline, it doesn't get much harder to deal with then that.

I think it's not established whether Unicorn's boundary is not being with a deceiver (she already knows he deceived her, at the outset of the r/ship, by denying he was married).

I personally think it's clear he has lied about the divorce filing also, because he told her the wife was "contesting" it and that's why it was taking so long, and there simply is no way to "contest" an unfiled divorce petition. Maybe that's clearer to me as a legal professional.

But the point is: it seems to me Unicorn has not decided WHAT her boundary is exactly--what is it about. Is it about his status of not having filed? Or is it about deception in the past? Or ongoing/future deception? Or any combination?

This makes a huge difference. I see assumptions that she is not willing to stay with a deceiver, but that doesn't sound like Unicorn's position. He has been known to be a deceiver for a long time, though that was one (big) instance (lying about being married).

Unicorn, I think you MUST figure this out before you take any stance on a "boundary." These are not the same boundaries.

If it were me, I think I'd opt for "I will resume a r/ship with you when you prove you have filed. And if you ever lie to me again I will walk away and not look back." That leaves out the issue of past and current deception. You may not feel comfortable with that. If you're not, I think that's what you have to be preparing for, because I am near certain he will prove to have deceiver you on this. What he's describing is not something that happens in the legal system.

Seeing your last post:

Please be aware that cases get arbitrated after they are filed, in general. The fact that arbitration avoids court does not mean the petition would not be filed.

Patient and clear, he told me he didn't tell me he was married when he first met me because he didn't think he was married. He told me his wife had emotionally abandoned him years ago and they were living as roommates when I met him.

I can tell you I'm definitely not comfortable calling him a liar or a deceiver. That goes against my beliefs.

I need to see that he filed before I continue on with the relationship. I told him it was causing me a problem in my religious life and he understood this. I'm really trying to do this as peacefully as possible. I'm really not trying to create a big drama. It took the time it took for me to look up his divorce online and when I did I immediately took action. There's really not much more I can say then that. I certainly am not comfortable being the judge of his character.

I'm hoping some of the legal professionals on here can address this.

I've worked "with" and been involved with funding clerk of court operations in various locations... .but I have never actually worked in the clerks office.

Still we talk... .we hear about mistakes... .technicalities... .oddities... it comes up.

This applies if we are talking about whether or not something got filed on a particular date... .or if there was a delay because a computer system was down... .or staff was out sick... .or a security event closed a court building... .

I've heard of all those things... .they affected filing for perhaps a day... .perhaps... .

Folks... .we're discussing the possibility that a person has wanted a divorce... .instructed his lawyer to file... .

And that the lawyer and/or the clerk of court (or staff) did not follow through... .

That is preposterous... .

Am I off base here?

FF

Can you help me understand this?

FF

Ff, I'm currently reading through the lessons and am on the one about codependency. It's a long one.

I'm reporting to you what my partner told me. He said he filed and either his lawyer didn't submit the papers or the county clerk didn't post them.

In terms of feeling emotionally abandoned by his wife: several years before I met him he had gotten in a serious accident and his wife walked away from him and didn't help him to recover. They had been living in separate rooms and cooking in separate areas when I met him. He told me that he didn't feel married to her and that she didn't act like a wife to him.

Yes, FF, it's pretty much not possible for the divorce filing/not filing to have unfold as he has recounted. I think there is a reason he is not wanting Unicorn to call the clerk and won't disclose the name of his lawyer despite the obvious stakes.

I would assume he could produce a divorce petition word-processed to show it was prepared on any date. I would not want Unicorn to think that means anything about whether the thing was actually prepared then.

But the key thing is that there are not these various stages of filing. It is filed, or it is not. One is in conversation with the lawyer one is supposedly paying about the status. One receives copies. Most important, if filed, it moves along. A scheduling order is set. There are deadlines. The lawyer talks with the client about these things. It doesn't just sit there. Nothing about this story is really possible, I regret to say.

I am a lawyer. I also lived through a contested divorce.

Patient, I need to ask you what your objective is here. I'm starting to feel uncomfortable with your posts on this thread. If your objective is to help me, I'm not feeling helped. My father is also a legal professional, it was his idea that I look it up in the first place. Even my father warned me against using you messages against my partner, such as you are a liar. I'm wondering what you're trying to accomplish here.

I think people are simply pointing out to you what is likely.

Your partner has not filed for a divorce. He has lied to you. Likely right now he is spinning in circles trying to figure out how to deal with his deadline, and wondering what you will do since he has been deceiving you and he is under the gun.

That isn't saying you should or need to call him a liar. He knows he is a liar.

You understand? He lied to you and has been perpetuating an emotional fraud against you in order to keep you with him.

It's a hard thing to face. It's really painful ( and I know it from experience) to suddenly have the light turned on and see very starkly that someone you love, who claimed to love you... would turn your life into a fabrication. It's your life.

You already said what you would do if it turns out he has lied to you.

You don't actually have to confront him and tell him he is a liar and deceiver. If that is what you mean when you say it's against your beliefs.

If what you mean is it is against your beliefs to have a relationship with a liar and a deceiver, then I guess you have some boundaries to enforce.

Hurts, I know. My boyfriend lies, too. It's becoming a flat out deal breaker.

Danielle, some people are so sure he lied to me. I am not. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

It goes against my beliefs to call someone a liar or deceiver. I will simply ask him for the papers on Friday and if he is unable to produce I will tell him we need to break until he does. I've already told him this is a religious conflict for me and he understands that. Up until this time I was taking him at his word that he filed. Now that it looks like he hasn't I need to take action. We will see what happens. Thank you for being reasonable.

My partner doesn't have the power to turn my life until a lie.

Unicorn,

I'm just certain that patientandclear is only trying to provide accurate information to you.

I'm not even an attorney, but just because I've had a position that required me to file literally hundreds and hundreds of family law "actions" with the clerk of the county court, I too felt the need to say what I believe to be 100% true: in the U.S., a divorce case is "worked" by and through the county clerk's office.

Now it's in your hands. It's very good that your father is in a position to help you with the next step: perhaps verifying that any documents you receive are genuine, and certainly helping you choose your words and your path forward.

I know How divorce cases work, I myself am divorced. I do not think my partner is going to give me forged documents. I'm not going to go down that path of checking them out. Either they are stamped by the court or they are not. My dad definitely can help me choose my words and my path forward. It's very simple, if my partner can not prove to me that he filed for divorce then we have to take a break. I don't want to, it may be ugly, and it's what I have to do. I really don't want to be a parent without a partner again.

No, I don't think that he was lying when he said that he was not married... .because he believed that the essence of a relationship that defines being married was not present.

By the same token, the inverse is also true... .that you ARE his wife, because he believes that the essence of the relationship that defines being married is present.  This has allowed him to be such an intricate part of your life.

So, the real question is that YOU do not feel married to him, while he may feel already married to you.  You define the "married-hood" differently from him.

I think that there is a communication disconnect between you both that is causing an upheaval of this relationship.

He is talking about the substance of marriage, you are talking about the form.

I don't think that he is a liar or being immoral... .and I don't think that your expectations are immoral or unrealistic either.

So, with this... .only time can unravel a solution... .or he can with a decisive act or you can with a decisive act.

What that decisive act will be or should be noone on this board has a right to voice... .because for any of us to advice you or him as to whether to walk away or stay would be a violation of your personhood (and his).

What we can do and should do with complete commitment is support you with whichever direction your spirit is taking you to.

You point the finger, we will carry you there.

God Bless.

*mod*

Getting on the same page with both boundaries (which we can control) and values (which at some point are good to sync) are important in any relationship. Good discussion. However, this thread has reached its posting limit. Please feel free to start a new topic.

Turkish