He claims he filed for divorce

[unicorn2014]

 

Hi everyone

I took a brief break from this board to post on the undecided board and then I realized I am still committed to staying.

One of the ongoing dilemmas in my relationship is that my partner, who has been physically separated from his wife for over 3 years, says he filed for divorce. I had been asking him for the papers since June and I finally took it upon myself to look him up in his county this week to see if he filed or not. What I found really upset me. Not only did I find he had not filed, I also found out there was a lawsuit against him. Or so it seemed. After talking to my father and a friend I decided to confront him on this. He claims not only did he file but that the lawsuit was against his wife and his name was merely attached. My father had advised me not to accuse him of being a liar but to simply state what I found and let my partner figure it out. So I did that and my partner claimed either his lawyer didn't file or the county clerk didn't file. So I gave him one week to fix this before I spoke to him again about it.

To make matters even more complicated as a result of updating my operating system on my phone I found an old text I saved from 3 years ago where he answered my question "are you married" with an indirect answer which misled me and as a result allowed me to start another online relationship with yet another married man who was living with his wife at the time. At the time I met my current partner I had recently been very hurt in a similar situation and had sworn never to do that again so naturally my partner had to hide the fact that he was married and living with his wife. I had posted about this previous failed online relationship 3 years ago on the social network I met my partner on so he knew exactly how I felt about those kind of relationships. I sent my partner a copy of this text yesterday without any comment. He of course was very upset  by this and told me he was going offline. We are currently in a LDR and he is in the process of and has been in the process of moving to my location for the 3 years we've been together.   I talked to him about this  and he reminded me he already apologized and  I needed to forgive him. I told him he needed to apologize as many times as it took for me to be able to forgive him.

In the meantime we ended up getting a big fight this afternoon after he texted me on my way to a meeting. I'm really stuck. I'm going to have to print out the boundaries article. Its 5am and I've been up for an hour and I finally decided to get up and write this topic. 

[patientandclear]

I sound like a broken record on this, but, why not tell this man this is a very clear situation of: you will work on forgiving him for past lies, but this r/ship is on hold until he does file for divorce and show you the filed document with a "filed" stamp on it.

Compounding the past lie and the current "not divorced" situation, it seems likely he is still lying to you now or lying again. Your inquiry this week was a chance for him to make a clean breast of it. He didn't, and now is saying another almost certainly untrue thing about how others have not done their job. Very very unlikely. Also, going along, he's been telling you that the wife is "contesting" it and that's why it's slow. Well, if it's not filed, there is nothing to contest. This too is a story.

I think you're fated to go around in circles so long as you are asking him to prove something he cannot prove because it isn't true. Giving him a week to prove he did it already will compound the problem if he didn't, because if he files now, he'll prove to you he lied earlier.

What do you want? If you learn he was lying all this time is that an actual deal breaker? If so, continue on the current course and it will become clear. Or do you intend to forgive all the lying so far if he now files?

If so, you can just tell him you'll resume the r/ship as soon as he shows you the file-stamped divorce pleading, and you don't care about the date. But not till then. If you take that stance you'll be giving him a huge out. He may be very relieved and be able to proceed, because this is something he CAN do, rather than the current impossible job of proving he did something he did not do.

He seems to have some resistance to actually getting divorced and moving, which may be a deeper underlying challenge.

[unicorn2014]

Patient and clear, the hold up on moving is he filing back taxes that his wife was responsible for supervising when he was injured and they were running a business together. He claims when they were living together he did not feel married to her which is why he did not tell me he was married. He said he would not say that today. He also claims he often has problems with filing clerks. He claims his wife threatened to sue him for all he had which is why he put the divorce on hold initially. If the documents are posted and they show the correct dates then he is off the hook. If they are not posted or do not show the correct dates then we have a problem. I would have checked up on him the first time he told me he filed for divorce but at that time I didn't know him well enough to know he might be lying.

[patientandclear]

I think there is next to zero chance there are documents with the right dates.

Assuming I'm right, many people would find the degree of lying and the ongoing lying a deal-breaker, but I am not hearing that from you.  So. Do you see how the current conversation, which focuses on whether he did the right thing in the past, is setting up ongoing problems because if there is no document, he is still stuck and the stories may get even taller?

If you are going to forgive him for the past lies, why not do it now, and give him a window to actually initiate the divorce now, which I thought you were going to do from your post on Undecided?

[unicorn2014]

Patient and clear, I gave him until Friday to show me that he filed the documents on the correct dates. If he is not able to then I will have to put the relationship on hold. I do not know if I can forgive him so that is part of the problem. I violated my own values in order to be in a relationship with him. When I found out he was married 3 years ago I chose to continue on because I thought I was in love with him. He did ask his wife to move out the day after I find out and he did tell me on that day he did ask for a divorce. In terms of the actual filing that I do not know and I am working on finding out.

[formflier]

 

Unicorn2014,

It sounds like you want his PATTERN of behavior to change... .correct?

If this is a single issue... .and not a pattern... .then Friday may be a good deadline. 

If it is a pattern... .then you will have to let time elapse... .focus on his deeds... .not his words.

All of the issues he has brought up (that I have read here) don't seem to be "real" reasons... .they are details.

If someone wants to be divorced... .they get divorced.

taxes, lawsuits, clerks... .all of that... .those are all details.

FF

[unicorn2014]

FF, I told him I need to see the papers by Friday with dates on them or else we're going to have a problem. He knows what I'm asking for. I should've asked for them when he first told me he was getting divorced and I didn't know any better. Part of the problem is he owned a business with his wife so that complicates things. I know others in that situation and it's not a short process. Then there's the dividing of assets. I am confident I am taking the right plan of action now. I hope I don't have to deal with no papers and if I do I'm sure I'll be asking for help here.

[babyducks]

Hi unicorn,

I know you have been struggling with this for a while, and that problem solving has been difficult.

As I read through the posts in this thread I get a little befuddled on what problem you are trying to solve.

You can only change, control and effect your behavior and actions.   Not his.   

It's good that you are taking action.   

I'm really stuck. I'm going to have to print out the boundaries article. Its 5am and I've been up for an hour and I finally decided to get up and write this topic.

Would you like help on boundaries?   Do you think you crossed some in this exchange?   What boundaries do you think got crossed?

'ducks

[unicorn2014]

Baby ducks , I crossed my own boundaries, not somebody else's, by allowing myself to continue to love a married man. I thought that him telling me he told her to leave and  she earned a divorce was enough. I took him at his word that he was filing. I didn't know any better . I am working on putting my own boundaries back in place. I'm befuddled that this is a staying board and yet I have yet to feel encouraged to stay by the posts made to me on this board. It's not my fault this man is acting this way. I thought we were supposed to love people in spite of their flaws and that that's what this board was all about? I'm a little confused by some of the harshness I seem to be experiencing here. I should add he claimed he filed which I am waiting to find out.

[formflier]

  I'm befuddled that this is a staying board and yet I have yet to feel encouraged to stay by the posts made to me on this board. It's not my fault this man is acting this way. I thought we were supposed to love people in spite of their flaws and that that's what this board was all about? I'm a little confused by some of the harshness I seem to be experiencing here. I should add he claimed he filed which I am waiting to find out.

Unicorn2014,

   

You are correct... .you are not at fault or responsible for the actions of someone else. 

I also want to give you a big thumbs up for the insight into the boundaries that you crossed. 

Many of the "lessons" that I have learned on this board have been about me looking at myself in the mirror... and considering the actions that I have done.  At times... that is tough stuff to process.

It's also good stuff to process because your actions are within your control to change... .if you determine they need to be changed.  Only you can make that determination.

Staying board

I'll let staff point you in the right direction on the "rules of engagement" on the board... .but I'll give you my "plain English" view.

Again... .my interpretation... .staff will likely follow up.

The staying board is not about telling people to stay or to go.  It is about having a place to discuss the skills needed to stay... .to discuss the issues that come up when a decision has been made to stay in a LTR with someone that displays traits of BPD. 

You should never get a "run message" on this board  In other words... nobody should ever say "you should leave him"

Staff monitors for that kind of thing.

I'm sorry you have experienced harshness on this board.  I would encourage you to keep posting... .keep answering questions... .keep educating yourself about your options.

This board has made a monumental difference in my life and my r/s.

There were times when I was asked "hard questions"... .that was uncomfortable... .but it helped clarify the reality of the situation... .so I could make better decisions.

Looking forward to future posts and helping you get the r/s that you want...

FF

[unicorn2014]

Thank you FF. Some people post here that are not in a r/s with a pwBPD. I'm trying to stay which is why I'm here.

I should add when I met my partner I had already been violating my own boundaries with other people but never to that extreme. I guess in some ways I feel like I'm getting blamed by allowing him to act that way. I just know I'm in a very uncomfortable position now of having asked for what I need to continue with this person and I hope he can give it to me. All I'm asking for is for him to show me he did the things he said he did. If he had not said he was filing for divorce I never would've continued with him. That part I was clear about with him from the start, before we even met in person.

[formflier]

 

Again... .

I've been in the position where I realized I had done stuff... that I wished I hadn't... .

That sucks... .

My hope for you is that you can use the discomfort to motivate yourself to seek out education about what you face... .

There is an "order to the disorder"... .it seems weird to "nons" why they (pwBPD) sometimes do things... .but once you realize there is a "reason" (even if you don't agree with it)... .

Now... .there is something that you can face... .there is "something" that you can try to understand... .

Life can get better with a pwBPD... .there is no way to tell how much better your r/s can be... .

Just like there is no way to tell how much more improvement my r/s will make.

However... .once you realize the "tools" from this website work... .that will give you hope... .that will take power away from the disorder and give it back to you!

You can do this!  

Break it down to small steps... .read a lesson a day.  

That is just as critical as the interactions "on the boards" with people like me.

Staff work very hard to have good content in the lessons... .take advantage of that.   Ask questions about what you read over there!

 

FF

[formflier]

 

Boundaries:

Don't be in a rush to "reset" or "set" a boundary.

The milk has been spilled... .

I am much more interested in a discussion with you about what boundary you want... .than you setting it in a hurry.

Whatever boundary you eventually set... .you must protect like fort knox

If appropriate... .someday I will tell you about my first extinction burst... .I survived... .it went textbook from the lessons and what guys told me on here.

I felt empowered when it was all over... .

FF

[KateCat]

Boy, I think this is an important nugget for you right now, unicorn:

I am much more interested in a discussion with you about what boundary you want... .than you setting it in a hurry.

[unicorn2014]

FF, thank you, I did start reading through the lessons and I think doing it in a systematic way of a lesson a day and writing about it in my journal will help. I came into the relationship with broken boundaries. I'm actually reading a book called better boundaries. I read about extinction bursts. I'm trying to set boundaries with my partner around texting and it's hard. Thank you for your supportive comments. That's why I'm here!

[KateCat]

Let's say on (Friday? or is it the end of the month?) you find that there never was a divorce filing.

Could you have a brand new ball-game at that moment? And a brand new position from which to negotiate relationship outcomes?

Because it's quite possible your fellow has been counting on you being a woman who would accept the status quo, more or less permanently.

But something in you has stirred and is changing. And if you should tell him to contact you if/when he has indeed filed for divorce, he would know he is in relation with a different woman. That would be a powerful change to the old dynamic. And perhaps the first time he has needed to make a choice.

I really, really like formflier's idea of taking your time right now.

[formflier]

I came into the relationship with broken boundaries.

Many... .I dare say most of us were the same way when we showed up here.  

 I'm trying to set boundaries with my partner around texting and it's hard.  

Perfect example... .

Can I challenge you to start a new topic about your boundary with texting...

Maybe read a lesson or two about boundaries... .and then post about your current struggles with texting... .

I bet we can get you on the right road.

We can keep this thread going about the "big picture" stuff in your life...

You have have a therapist or counselor that you see locally?

Building a support system for YOU is critical.

bpdfamily is part of that.  Let's call it "one leg of the stool".

Another leg would be a local professional that you can work through "stuff" in your life.  

I have established relationships with several PhD type psychologists and therapists.  While I am not regularly seeing any of them right now the relationship with several of them is one that we occasionally correspond via email/phone.

If something came up... I could quickly get advice... .or set an appointment.  

They are all intimately familiar with me... .and my situation.

This is an incredibly valuable thing to have in my hip pocket.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Katecat, the relationship is far too advanced to take that kind of approach. I don't think I've made it clear. We're engaged, my daughter calls him her stepdad. He's met my family, my church, my former therapist, my former sponsor, etc. On Friday if he has not given me what I've asked for I'm going to have to put the relationship on hold until he does and that will be very hard. This is not a good time. My daughter's birthday is coming up and he was going to be involved. He saw himself as being married to me, not his wife, and that's how he was conducting himself.

[unicorn2014]

FF, Sure I can do that. In terms of professionals, I had one therapist for 7 years whom my partner is now working with. I just wrapped another year of therapy with another therapist. Both of my former therapists felt I could handle this on my own. I  spoke to my first therapist last week about this whole situation. I think the question is am I going to stand my ground on Friday if my partner does not give me what I ask for. I've talked to my dad, my former sponsor, and my former therapist about this situation as well as a new friend. I just really hope it doesn't come down to me having to set a boundary and say we need to put our relationship on hold until you can give me what I asked for. I really don't want to do that.

I did experience an extinction burst yesterday around texting which I will write about later.

[patientandclear]

Thank you FF. Some people post here that are not in a r/s with a pwBPD. I'm trying to stay which is why I'm here.

I should add when I met my partner I had already been violating my own boundaries with other people but never to that extreme. I guess in some ways I feel like I'm getting blamed by allowing him to act that way. I just know I'm in a very uncomfortable position now of having asked for what I need to continue with this person and I hope he can give it to me. All I'm asking for is for him to show me he did the things he said he did. If he had not said he was filing for divorce I never would've continued with him. That part I was clear about with him from the start, before we even met in person.

Unicorn,

I'm sorry you feel posts are harsh or urging you to leave.  I don't see that (and I'm guessing mine may have been the ones you read slanting that way).  My suggestions are that you set up terms he actually might be able to meet, to stay.  Which, I'm guessing, involves him NOW taking the action you wanted him to take a long time ago.  As I've said several times above, possibly making you feel bad (and I'm sorry), I really doubt he will be able to produce papers with a correct date.  Not even sure what that would mean, as you already know they were not filed.  Anyone can now word process a documented with a correct "drafted on" date.  The issue is -- he didn't take the necessary steps to file.

So I fear you have set up a test he probably cannot pass, and that will lead to further lying.  You already know he HAD lied, so not sure what test you are administering that ends Friday.  It may or may not prove an additional lie.  But he has already lied in important and ongoing ways.

So.  As I said above, if lying is a deal breaker, you pretty much already know what you need to know.  If it is not a deal breaker -- if you need him to act right henceforth -- give him something he can actually succeed at.  That's why I'm suggesting you give him amnesty for past failures, but tell him now, he needs to actually file within a month (something realistically achievable) and then you will return to the r/s, or (as you suggested you were considering on your Undecided thread) tell him you will leave at that point if he has not proven he has filed for divorce.

Quite a few folks on here (including me) have stayed or tried to stay in BPD r/ships with the understanding that over some things, you have to be willing to walk away if the terms do not work for you.  Only by being willing to walk away, can some boundaries be secured.  I'm currently in that situation.  It doesn't mean I haven't followed a "Staying" approach.  Others here have set "I will leave if X continues" or "I will leave unless X happens" boundaries and their BPD partners have adjusted to allow the r/ship to continue.  You can't control how the BPD partner will respond to such a stance -- sometimes it "works" in terms of maintaining the r/s, and sometimes it results in the end of the r/s.  The approach here is to do what you need to do for you, and not key those decisions off of how your partner will react.

[patientandclear]

Katecat, the relationship is far too advanced to take that kind of approach. I don't think I've made it clear. We're engaged, my daughter calls him her stepdad. He's met my family, my church, my former therapist, my former sponsor, etc. On Friday if he has not given me what I've asked for I'm going to have to put the relationship on hold until he does and that will be very hard. This is not a good time. My daughter's birthday is coming up and he was going to be involved. He saw himself as being married to me, not his wife, and that's how he was conducting himself.

I think KateCat and you are actually saying the same thing.  That you make continuing in the r/s contingent on proof that he has actually filed.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you FF. Some people post here that are not in a r/s with a pwBPD. I'm trying to stay which is why I'm here.

I should add when I met my partner I had already been violating my own boundaries with other people but never to that extreme. I guess in some ways I feel like I'm getting blamed by allowing him to act that way. I just know I'm in a very uncomfortable position now of having asked for what I need to continue with this person and I hope he can give it to me. All I'm asking for is for him to show me he did the things he said he did. If he had not said he was filing for divorce I never would've continued with him. That part I was clear about with him from the start, before we even met in person.

Unicorn,

I'm sorry you feel posts are harsh or urging you to leave.  I don't see that (and I'm guessing mine may have been the ones you read slanting that way).  My suggestions are that you set up terms he actually might be able to meet, to stay.  Which, I'm guessing, involves him NOW taking the action you wanted him to take a long time ago.  As I've said several times above, possibly making you feel bad (and I'm sorry), I really doubt he will be able to produce papers with a correct date.  Not even sure what that would mean, as you already know they were not filed.  Anyone can now word process a documented with a correct "drafted on" date.  The issue is -- he didn't take the necessary steps to file.

So I fear you have set up a test he probably cannot pass, and that will lead to further lying.  You already know he HAD lied, so not sure what test you are administering that ends Friday.  It may or may not prove an additional lie.  But he has already lied in important and ongoing ways.

So.  As I said above, if lying is a deal breaker, you pretty much already know what you need to know.  If it is not a deal breaker -- if you need him to act right henceforth -- give him something he can actually succeed at.  That's why I'm suggesting you give him amnesty for past failures, but tell him now, he needs to actually file within a month (something realistically achievable) and then you will return to the r/s, or (as you suggested you were considering on your Undecided thread) tell him you will leave at that point if he has not proven he has filed for divorce.

I hope you see that none of that is about you ditching your r/s.  It may be about saving it.

Patient and clear, Yours are not the only ones I experience as harsh. I do not know that he did not file. All I know is they haven't been posted to the county website. If they are not there on Friday and he does not produce them then I will have to take a break from the relationship which I have no idea how I'm going to do. We are very much interdependent at this point and very much partners at this point. This isn't a casual dating relationship. This man is involved with my friends and family, church and recovery.

I don't even know if my daughter would side with me at this point. She's mad at his wife for contesting the divorce because she would like us to get married and have a baby so she can have a sibling. It is a big mess.

We've been in a relationship for three years, we just celebrated our third anniversary. I decided  in June of this year  to ask for the papers. Then a week ago I decided to look them up myself and found they weren't there.

Believe me I've talked to everyone in my life about this r/s, my priest, my former sponsor, my former therapists, parents, brother, friends, in meetings. So what I'm struggling with now is  that I didn't ask for the papers three ago and let it get this far. This isn't a dating relationship. I guess I don't know how to emphasize how serious this is. I don't how I'm going to hold the line of pausing the relationship on Friday if he can not produce the papers. He's making this about me and telling me his word should be good enough, telling me I'm acting like a lawyer, telling me I'll have what I'm asking for.  I have let some of my friends and family know this is what I'm doing but I do not know if I'm emotionally strong enough to hold this line. I'm going to need a lot of help if it comes down to that.

And yes you are right, when I found out last week that the divorce or dissolution papers were not posted I had a serious moment of doubt about the relationship and posted on the undecided board. Its funny, my former therapist also suggested giving him amnesty. Like I said I don't know if I can do that because if it turns out he's strung me along with for three years my fury is going to know no bounds.

[unicorn2014]

Patient and clear, I am working on being able to walk away just as he working on moving where I am to be with me. It is not good timing. Basically I told him if he can not produce those papers I do not want to continue on with him until he can. I think what I am doing is working on setting up a boundary so if those papers are not in place by the time he relocates we will not see each other. Right now the relationship is LDR so that already has a boundary in place. I really hope it doesn't come down to this because previously I had worked out a plan with my former therapist that I would not end the relationship until my partner moved out to my area. We have been in a LDR for 3 years. At this point most of our relationship takes place over facetime, text, mail, and phone. I haven't seen him in person since June. Basically I think what I am doing is trying to set up a relationship I can live with when he moves out here. I told him the current status of our relationship is causing all kinds of problems with me, including my relationship to church.

[KateCat]

I've worked in the family law sector, and I don't think you were foolish at all not to "figure out" sooner. There's nothing unusual about a complex, contested divorce dragging on for three years in the U.S. That's how we roll here.

However, if he wants to file now, he can do that in a very short time. Would you accept proof of a new divorce filing by Friday of this week? Because that may be something he can do if you give him the option.

[patientandclear]

  Unicorn.  Sounds super stressful.

Here's what I'm hearing:

(1) you think you may be so furious at him if it turns out he was lying all along that you aren't sure what the implications are for the r/ship

(2) it matters to you whether he's been lying, not just whether he now proceeds to get divorced with alacrity

(3) it will be an enormous loss if you need to end the r/ship or risk ending it

I think, interestingly, KateCat and I are both suggesting you consider whether you can or would want to let the lying issue go.

I'm guessing this is one of those things where he was ambivalent and over-sold the situation to you from the outset, saying he had filed.  Then either got complacent about it, or felt stuck, or otherwise got mired in the status quo.  Not saying it's defensible, but this situation got rolling a long time ago.  And -- you also do know he's lied a significant amount.  I keep saying this, but I doubt you are going to see a shift in facts on Friday.  He did lie -- he didn't file, it wasn't making its slow way through the courts and she was slowing it down by contesting it, blah blah blah.  That was not true.  That lying definitely occurred.

That's why I'm suggesting you search your heart NOW to decide the implications of the lying.  If you are ultimately going to let it go, I'd save the big guns for the forward-looking boundary, which has a decent chance of succeeding (by forward-looking, I mean: "I'll resume this r/s when you file and prove it".  I don't think telling him you'll engage with him when he has actually filed is all that earth-shaking a response from you.  It's remarkably generous.  He can get out of the fix he's in any time he chooses to.

I can hear that you are very scared about the implications of what you are going to find out.  Because you think it might mean the end.

I really think re-framing this as you setting a requirement that meets your needs that he can NOW meet, with an amnesty, may alleviate your sense of panic.  That can still all work out.  IF, that is, you think you can see your way toward forgiving the lying, which definitely occurred, we already know that.

 

[KateCat]

More great counsel from patientandclear, I think.

It probably sounds right now as though people posting to your thread are saying, "Meh, no big deal he lied about filing for divorce." But I think most of us get that it is a huge deal.

I guess I sense that this is who he is, or at least who he has been in his life. A liar. A pathological one.

But he has been stuck in living this one big lie for a very long time. If we can put ourselves in his position at all, maybe we can see that this has been getting harder and harder for him, and now the vise is really tightening all the way. What can he do?

I think it's all about you now. You and your choices. And they are tough ones and they maybe deserve time and respect. If you make a decision right now, aren't you making it in a state of shock?

[unicorn2014]

Patient and clear, I do not know that's he's lying. All I know is his divorce is not posted. He says either his lawyer didn't file or the county clerk didn't file. I'm actually not in a panic, I deeply sad. I don't want to have to let go of this relationship. I think I haven't done a very good job of communicating the situation here on this thread.

[KateCat]

He says either his lawyer didn't file or the county clerk didn't file.

If this is what he's telling you now, it's not a great sign that he wants to turn over a new leaf.  :'(

His feeling of shame may be too great to face.

[unicorn2014]

Katecat, I think my problem with this thread is we are assuming he's lying. I haven't made that assumption yet. What I have done is ask him to prove to me that what he said is true. If he doesn't do that then I will have a problem and I've let him know this as well as my friends and family so they can support me. I'm going to give him until Friday to prove himself and then if he doesn't I'm going to put the relationship on hold until he does. That's going to be very hard as we are in constant contact morning noon and night through telephone text message Facebook and FaceTime. We even follow each other on find friends. It's going to be a huge loss if I have to put the brakes on the relationship and I'm not sure how I'm going to be able to handle it. I even checked out the book on healing from abandonment to help prepare me for this possible loss.

[KateCat]

I will fully admit to assuming he's lying. The concept of a "contested" divorce that doesn't appear in the county court record would be an utterly new one on me.

But it sounds as though you are prepared to take care of yourself now, and are moving forward.