BPDFamily.com

For those of you, myself included, who are trying to detach yet hoping to receive that phone call or text from the BPDx you loved professing their love, that they were wrong, that they have truly changed and want to ride off into the sunset with you, consider this: there are nearly 1/2 million posts in this section, and not one happy ending involving a BPDx.  The only happy stories we hear are from those who have maintained NC and let time heal. That's why we detach, because we know that they will not change.  That is why they are disordered.  Let's remember this and focus on ourselves instead of fantasizing about what will not occur.

Amen Brother/Sister

HOLY. SHIZ.  Perspective, anyone?  We're all in rehab together, craving that sweet sweet drug that has almost killed some of us.  You are so spot-on I just had an epiphany!

The Lesson:

Nobody is perfect. Ever. But the pwBPD needs us to be perfect. We can never, will never, ever, reach that expectation, and we will kill ourselves trying.

Even better yet, 500K posts on this forum, and not one BPD treated here. 

We can only alter and affect the things we are in control of. And that thing is us, our own selves.

This forum is a place for us to share stories, know that we aren't in the same boat alone, and start us on a journey into self exploration to figure out why we allowed ourselves to be ensnared into these types of relationships.

When I first arrived here 8 years ago, I thought I was good, and my ex was bad.

8 years later, I have uncovered a lot of my own faults and have worked on them. I am not the same person that entered these halls. Between this site and a great therapist, my twisted thinking is unravelled, my past demons are now friends of mine that I embrace, instead of run from, and my mind is much more clear. Gone are the days of fog and confusion. I understand that life presents itself, and requires me to make decisions, sometimes hard ones, but I am no longer afraid to pull the trigger on those hard decisions because I don't fear the unknown. I am comfortable in my own skin, and don't need someone else to unlock the happiness inside of me. I realize that happiness exists in me, and is at my beckon call, rather than needing someone to induce it out of me.

So Hopealways, I will beg to differ with you, there are happy endings. Just not any in the context you provided. Thank God for unanswered prayers.

|iiii

A couple of points:

1.  Relationship boards, especially ones involving disorders like BPD, are overwhelmingly populated by members in failed or struggling relationships.  After all, how many times when everything is going wonderfully do we feel the need to join a message board and tell the world about how well things are going?  Not too often, right?  In fact, many members here who return to the relationship never post again until things go wrong.  Those where some degree of stability are achieved may never return at all.  So, it's important to realize that we are working with an inherently biased sample group.

2.  pwBPD absolutely can change.  There are published scientific papers showing the effectiveness of treatments like DBT.  It is an extremely extremely difficult task for anyone to make these sorts of fundamental changes in themselves, and I have tremendous respect for those who suffer from BPD who are able to make this transition.  They are doing some very difficult work on themselves and we should be proud of them.  (This is also true of us.   :light:)

3.  One of the things that you will recognize the more you post here is that most of us have significant problems of our own in relationships.  We are not the partners we might imagine ourselves to be, and we certainly are not the types of partners up to the task of being in a relationship with someone with BPD.  I don't mean this as an assault on anyone, but rather a view from spending many hours here and reading a great many stories from members.  It is a distinct pattern, and one that I certainly fit myself.  It took me a long time to see that.  It takes tremendous strength, emotional intelligence, communication skills, patience, empathy, and a host of other qualities to provide the foundation required for a BPD relationship.  It is simply the reality of these sorts of unequal relationships.  Obviously this is not something everyone would choose regardless of their own mental health.  And that's ok.  These are hard relationships.  But that does not mean that they are impossible.

What people have to consider is that we are only a small percentage that are even aware of BPD.

There are many people out there in what might be difficult relationships but managing who may not even be aware that their partner has BPD. There are a lot here who have a parent suffering from BPD but their parents are still together.

We also have to bear in mind that it is a spectrum disorder so a lot of people suffering with BPD could be at a very mild end of the spectrum and although may have some difficulties they are able to cope.

The fact that we are here and although most don't have a diagnosis for their SO we believe them to be BPD shows how abnormal their behaviour is.

I like your logically and rational posts. |iiii

Perhaps that is why, in part, we have such a difficult time detaching.  It is difficult to look within yourself and admit fault.   Once you can look, you can forgive and the opportunity to grow as a person is realized.  This is perhaps the silver lining to a failed relationship with a pwBPD.

Everyone on this post has made such excellent points! Especially about the selection bias. If I am doing well and in a healthy relationship 2 years from now, am I going to come back here and "spike the football" in front of those who are suffering so much? Doubtful.

Good point also on personal reflection. The fact that I wrongly thought I could help my dBPDxgf while simultaneously dating her says more about my own arrogance and codependency than anything else.

There can be a happy ending for our pwBPD, and for us, but not while we are trying to be in a r/s together.

It is easier for me to detach knowing that my ex's best chance for happiness comes from me no-longer enabling her bad behaviors. It is easier for me to detach knowing that a happier, balanced relationship with someone else awaits me at some point in the future.

Faulting the NON is quite different that faulting the BPD. The non tends to care and give based on their fixer and giving personality (typically caused by their own childhood trauma) which leads to codependency issues. This is very different from the abuse, violent, degrading and inhumane behavior of the BPD.

Let's not try to make it seem like we nons share any blame in these relationships (other than entering them after being seduced and not leaving earlier) when all we did was give and love to someone whose pathology doesn't allow them to give or love.

I do believe that if someone had an experience with a BPD who had healed and went on to live happily every after together, at least 1 post out of 1/2 million would show that.  Plenty of nons who have detached come back years later and say how healthy they are now WITHOUT the BPD, certainly you would think at least one person would post how happy they are now WITH their BPD relationship if that could be possible.

ive read a number of happy endings on bpdfamily.

surely you have heard the axiom that it takes two to tango.

the premise of recognizing our role in the failure of the relationship is not about assigning blame or comparison to our partners, though i can see how it sounds and seems that way, particularly early on in recovery. its not about being the bigger person either. our role is often not easy to see. but recognizing it is fundamentally about growth and moving from victim, to survivor, and ultimately to thriver.    (http://www.cbwhit.com/Victim-to-survivor.htm)

i could explain my own role in the failure of the relationship to you; it would be lengthy. but in many ways, you have highlighted it quite well already, when you say "Let's not try to make it seem like we nons share any blame in these relationships (other than entering them after being seduced and not leaving earlier) when all we did was give and love to someone whose pathology doesn't allow them to give or love... "

isnt that a little black and white? is it a realistic assessment of our feelings about our exes during the relationship? it doesnt fit for me. if we were truly in relationships that were that one sided, then perhaps we have more to consider than the idea that we simply loved too much. a tendency to see things from this perspective may be a very part of the "role" i am describing.

for me personally, the following thread gives me a very visual sense of what my role was, and that my relationship was an unhealthy dance between two unhealthy people.

PERSPECTIVES: From Idealization to Devaluation - Why We Struggle   (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=161524.0)

Do you think that if one could see these codependency attributes and be able to control them, one might be able to step back from the "partner" side of the relationship and help as a friend?

C.Stein,

I tried to do that with my ex. I suggested we go very slowly and work towards being in a relationship again at a time that felt comfortable for both of us. He agreed initially. But, it was such a massive trigger that it totally de-stabilised him. He had to be back in the relationship NOW or not at all. I couldn't agree to that, so he decided to go no contact, permanently, saying it hurt too much to know he still had feelings for me but knew we would never be together. I suspect it sounded like: she doesn't love me anymore, I've been bad, she's abandoning me (add on as you wish). I didn't say or mean any of those things, but it isn't about what we say or mean, it's about what they believe and there's nothing we can do to change that. Only they can change what they believe and it takes lots of therapeutic help to do that. The awful truth is that it is not possible to love a person with BPD better, it takes more.

Love Lifewriter

It may seem this way at first.  Most of us arrived here feeling this way - that we are the victims.  I don't believe it's correct, however.  You mention fixing and that is one of the destructive, dysfunctional behaviors (among many others) that members here engaged in during the relationship.  We shouldn't be trying to fix people we love.  Love is accepting and if we want to have a stable relationship we must accept our partner.  That doesn't mean we need to tolerate bad behavior, but we do need to accept that they have a disorder (or any other problems).  Trying to fix this is destructive.  It puts our partner in a lesser position to us.  It is controlling.  Domineering.  Shaming.  It says, "I'm better than you, you are defective, and I am going to take charge of you and sort you out since you can't do it yourself".  This is something that I did routinely in my relationship and I am certain that it was a significant part of the breakdown.  I had good intentions, of course, as did most of us.  We wanted things to get better and we wanted to stop the suffering for both parties.  It just doesn't work that way, however.  Love is accepting.


This is a belief, not a fact.  There isn't much evidence to support that pwBPD can't love.  In fact, the vast majority of pwBPD seem to self report that they did feel genuine love for their partner.  We can call it an immature love, a distorted love, but we can't just say it's not a real love.  This article from a woman with BPD (https://bpdfamily.com/content/my-definition-love-i-have-borderline-personality-disorder) discussing this issue may be interesting for you to read.


This post by EaglesJuju (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=285405.msg12690982#msg12690982) is a positive experience with returning to a relationship where her partner is in therapy and making solid progress with his disorder.  If you look through the archived posts here you will certainly find many more.  The group sample is very biased in the direction of failure, but it is a mistake to claim that it is not possible to have a stable relationship with someone with BPD.  Are these relationships easy?  No.  But some members love their partner, accept them as they are, and are willing to work with them for a better relationship.  It does take two and it is not possible in every relationship, but this is not just unique to partners with BPD, right?

I'm trying to do that to some extent, so we shall see.

She started texting again 2 days ago. I'm still trying to determine if this is a recycle attempt or if she is genuine, but right now I actually believe she is sincere. She took the mask off again, and it was not pretty. She finally confessed to everything, and seems to be taking personal responsibility for her actions. She is young, intelligent and has never shown narcissistic tendencies, so I am actually hopeful she will eventually be able to get better.

That said, I am not going to ever allow us to attempt to return to a romantic r/s. I feel like that would be either enabling or triggering, and most likely would undermine both our recoveries.

I have made it quite clear that if she wants me in her life it will be only as platonic friends, and that our friendship will have well-established boundaries. For instance, we are only communicating through text right now. I told her I will be there for her as long as she is 100% honest and sincere, but will disappear the second that the lies and manipulation return. If we ever see each other in person again, it will be somewhere in public.

I am never sleeping with her again in my life. I feel like that would be harmful for us both.

Obviously, the road to recovery is one only she can walk down. I want to help her get better, but I am not emotionally invested in that outcome at all.

It is certainly not unique to BPD relationships.  One of the most difficult things for me to come to terms with post discard is I was willing and did accept her, the whole her.  She recognized aspects of her personality that she was unhappy with and expressed a willingness to work on those.  I tried my best to support her as a friend, because as a partner it would have been very difficult to not take some things personally.  The problem was there was a lack of action on her part and BPD or not there are lines that just can't be crossed.  This all led to a one way give-take, and the more she took the more numb I got.

I'll chime in on this one! I was in a 3+ year r/s with a person w/PD.  There were red flags abound from the beginning, but I stayed in the r/s for good reasons and not so good reasons.  I finally left the r/s 2 years ago this week and commenced a tough journey of recovery and detachment.  I can say with certainty that I do not ever want to replicate that kind of r/s again and at the same time, I won't say I wish it never happened because I might be a different person today without all the steps in the journey.  I am in a healthy and reciprocating r/s today with a fabulous non PD partner.  Again, I wouldn't change a thing and feel blessed!

Ok, so the happy ending or not happy ending looks different to everyone.  Relationships with people w/PD may work or not work.  In the same respect, r/s with non PD folks may work or not work.  I was in a 14 year marriage with a non PD partner that didn't work and couldn't be saved.  I was then in a 3+ year r/s with a PD partner that didn't work and couldn't be saved.  I dug in and did a lot of work, and found inner peace and happiness = happy ending for me and the icing on the cake being the healthy r/s I'm now in.  How does the story end?  Who knows, but I trust myself now and have a great deal of faith!

Most relationships with pwBPD do not lead to happy endings.

Those that are said to be "successful" (which are few and far between) are ones where the 'non' partner learns to not take the abuse as personally, there's very sporadic intimacy, the codependency gets twisted into an over-reliance on extra validation, etc. Not the healthiest of connections.

Yes, it's up to us to make our own best moves. The less FOG the better.

Cosmonaut wrote---

1.  Relationship boards, especially ones involving disorders like BPD, are overwhelmingly populated by members in failed or struggling relationships.  After all, how many times when everything is going wonderfully do we feel the need to join a message board and tell the world about how well things are going?   So, it's important to realize that we are working with an inherently biased sample group.

=====Looking at the undecided and staying board, I don't see many people there either talking about a great, happy relationship with a pwBPD... .or in online articles or websites, or really anywhere.  Do you think that there are many people in happy relationships with pwBPD, and they just don't talk about it? Or are they not that happy either, and they just haven't joined the board? I suspect the latter.

2.  pwBPD absolutely can change.  There are published scientific papers showing the effectiveness of treatments like DBT.  It is an extremely extremely difficult task for anyone to make these sorts of fundamental changes in themselves, and I have tremendous respect for those who suffer from BPD who are able to make this transition.  They are doing some very difficult work on themselves and we should be proud of them.  (This is also true of us.)

=====A link to published articles would be useful. The articles I've read show a small percentage responding to and staying with even DBT which is a top-notch treatment. Anyone can improve and anything is possible though.

3.  One of the things that you will recognize the more you post here is that most of us have significant problems of our own in relationships.  We are not the partners we might imagine ourselves to be, and we certainly are not the types of partners up to the task of being in a relationship with someone with BPD.  I don't mean this as an assault on anyone, but rather a view from spending many hours here and reading a great many stories from members.  It is a distinct pattern, and one that I certainly fit myself.  It took me a long time to see that.  It takes tremendous strength, emotional intelligence, communication skills, patience, empathy, and a host of other qualities to provide the foundation required for a BPD relationship.  It is simply the reality of these sorts of unequal relationships.

=====True, we have negative traits too. But even a "saint" who has all the above qualities you mentioned (patience, empathy, etc.) would sooner or later get split by the BPD, and get pushed away and pulled back by the BPD, and raged at by the BPD, no matter what the partner says or does, and no matter how healthy the partner is, and no matter what great traits the partner has. It is part of BPD.

Someone asked for data.  Here is a start: https://bpdfamily.com/content/treatment-borderline-personality-disorder  We have the actual study on the "Questions" board here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=123298.0

But I don't think the recovery STATS tell the story of the Leaving Board.

One important point of perspective is that the vast majority of the partners here would not qualify for a diagnosis of BPD in a university practice. Few people do.

Most of the ex's have traits and comorbidities of impulsive disorders (BPD is one). Given the broad spectrum of BPD, even broader if you include subclinical BPD and expand that for the range of various other afflictions and cocktails, it doesn't make much sense to paint the exs with one color or make too many blanket statements about the partners.

Yes, we see a lot of common behavior reports, but maybe the common denominator is not the BPD, maybe its how we responded to the relationship. We accepted it, tried to fix it, held on for dear life, and were emotionally crushed when it ended.

The fact is that push and pull, fear of commitment, silent treatment, black and white thinking, cheating, fear of abandonment are not behaviors isolated to pwBPD.  These are common to all the impulse disorders and, in part, to some of other personality disorders as well as mood disorders and addiction. Hell, some of us are doing theses very things.

It's not a numbers game. It's not about black and white population analyses. It's not about someone else (who is now gone).

Its about us. Maybe the better  question is... .

500K posts and how many of us figured out what really happened and learned to live a better, more emotionally mature life afterward?

That is the happy ending.

Skip, if most of the people discussed here would not qualify for a BPD diagnosis, and the focus should pretty much exclusively be on ourselves, are there plans to change 'bpdfamily.com' to 'It's-really-Us, not-Them.com', or something similar? Could be beneficial.

Disclaimer: I was not in a relationship with a person with BPD. (My SO has an uBPDxw)

However, I have been in my share of functional & dysfunctional relationships including a 20 year marriage to an alcoholic.  I don't blame him for the failure of our marriage though his alcoholism certainly didn't help.  I could blame the poverty he was raised in, I could blame his dad for dying in front of him when he was 14, I could blame his teenage bio-mom that put him up for adoption. All part of what I believe led to his alcoholism. 

Blame can be laid anywhere.

I had my own issues too.  I was a rescuer, I was on the rebound when we met, I had low self esteem, I was following rules laid down by my mom about marriage and I also gradually became co-dependent. We both brought healthy and unhealthy things into our marriage. As we all do into all of our relationships.

Have you reflected on why you entered into the relationship with your pwBPD?  What attracted you?  Why did you stay? She didn't have a relationship by herself like someone else said it takes to to tango.

I personally think there is a spectrum of behaviors and emotional health in the pwBPD and there is also a spectrum of behaviors and emotional health with Nons on these boards as well.  I think we all can improve ourselves with the desire and willingness to do so, pwBPD and Nons. 

Panda39

Let's break this down. Bpd is a PERSONALITY DISORDER right? It's causes them to hurt us and lie to us and cheat on us and push us over the edge. We have some people hear that says "oh yes they can change" let me ask you, have you looked at the real numbers on cure rates for personality disorders? It's one in a million. Think about this; what You went to dbt therapy to learn how to be a borderline? How many years would it take you to learn a whole new personality? Now... .I accept my half with my ex. But, my new girlfriend doesn't lie to me and treat me unfairly, and guess what? We don't fight. But I do respect the opinions of others here. But 500,000 posts can't be wrong .

lmao I've thought that too.

Sure.  Here are a few articles .  I've quoted relevant portions of results for each.  Treatment isn't a cure all, and it does take dedication and work on the part of the person with BPD, but the evidence says that it can work.  BPD was once seen as a hopeless disorder, but that is not the conventional view anymore.



Effectiveness of dialectic behavioral therapy in routine outpatient care: the Berlin Borderline Study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4579507/)


Dialectical behavior therapy alters emotion regulation and amygdala activity in patients with borderline personality disorder (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4263347/)


Dialectic behavioural therapy has an impact on self-concept clarity and facets of self-esteem in women with borderline personality disorder (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20187169)



This is black or white thinking, myself.  We can recognize that our partner has a disorder and recognize that our own mental health played a part in the relationship's dysfunction.  Like Skip pointed out, this really isn't about assigning blame.  We can have a balanced view of the relationships without having to determine who is at fault for what.  The goal is to correct the problems we have in relationships, right?  We can't change our ex.  We can only change ourselves.  That is true if you are on the Staying board or the Leaving board.

While I think there is a problem with laypersons diagnosing others with BPD, I'd say the majority of us have/have had partners with the actual diagnosis.  Not only that, but those of us who have had partners with the actual diagnosis are as expert on the disorder as the experts in terms of identifying it and the behaviors.  We just aren't qualified to treat it.  But we have LIVED IT.  Intimately.  A typical therapist will see x-number of patients each week, with a wide range of disorders, and they will see each of these for maybe an hour a week.  The partner of the patient will spend the vast majority of their quality time with the therapist's patient, and we KNOW a good therapist will always solicit input from the partner of the patient for this very reason.  If most of us don't know what we were talking about, then this site shouldn't exist in the first place.  We know our partners better than any therapist ever will, and we know them better than anyone else on the planet ever will.  WE KNOW.

Cosmonaut wrote---

Here are a few articles .  I've quoted relevant portions of results for each.  Treatment isn't a cure all, and it does take dedication and work on the part of the person with BPD, but the evidence says that it can work.  BPD was once seen as a hopeless disorder, but that is not the conventional view anymore.

=====The last 2 articles show the effectiveness of DBT, which is an excellent treatment.  The first article showing "77 percent of patients no longer meeting criteria for BPD"  is not convincing.  The sample size is very small, the time span of the study is only 6 months (symptoms can temporarily improve and then flare up later), and "no longer meeting criteria" can mean having 4 BPD symptoms instead of 5.

We're starting to get far afield here, but the point is that improvements can be made.  No one is suggesting that BPD can be cured, only that it can be improved.

The site is also called bpdfamily.com, but a search on that isn't likely to land many people here  *)

It's a journey. PI is for those ready to focus exclusively on themselves. And though it doesn't apply in all cases, exploring FOO is what Coping And Healing is good for. I can only speak for me, but the communication tools work on anyone, and they've helped me look at my parenting from a different angle. The boundaries I've learned here have helped me rebuff the advances of a woman at work, who is frankly a mess. They've helped me be a better co parent as well. Being here has also helped me with my borderline mom, who only told me she was BPD last year. Wins all around, but the common denominator is me and how I deal with things. Good vs. bad triangulation. Looking inward and taking stock on my role with whomever I interact with. The fact is I can only control myself, no one else, passively or otherwise. Facing that fact.

I felt this was a very accurate reflection of REAL life. It's not all theory and university degrees. If that filled the real need for non's to understand and comprehend the disorder and pwBPD to improve and heal themselves then this website would be completely redundant. The fact is. This website is needed. These stories are real, and the information (and tools) shared here are invaluable.


<br/>:)BT is a very formal and expensive treatment modality which is why it not even offered in my geographical region. When researched in depth the published studies of the "success" rate of DBT involves small groups that suffered from severe traits like suicide attempts and self-harm via cutting. The published success rates pertain to those patients not committing suicide and refraining from further self harm. While that is great for those involved and those committed to treatment and getting better, it is hardly indicative of the general BPD population and the complexity of this disorder.

There is good reason that only a relatively short time ago this disorder was considered untreatable and hopeless. That is not a good start, and while I would not want to remove hope to those partners or indeed the person suffering from BPD. The skeptic in me can see there is a lot of $$$ to be made in treating what was once untreatable. That said I do believe that taking responsibility and accountability on the part of the pwBPD can go a long way to making progress even that relativey simple step is an extremely difficult thing to accomplish.



Again, this quote is an ACCURATE portrayal of the studies that have shown improvement. The terms are loose, the improvement vague, it does seem like the studies which are conducted by the treatment modality specialists themselves seem a little optimistic and more than a little biased toward a positive vested outcome.

I'm sure improvements can be made but when you research the MRI studies that show physical changes in the brain of the suffer you know this is not going to be easy to reverse or even significantly improve. We all suffer limitations of the human condition, but this science is undeniable.

This thread is very refreshing in its brutal honesty... .and I would like this view to be made redundant and possibly it will with the passage of time but don't quote a few instances here and there and very specific individuals that have made it their life's work and have usually written a book (or two) as reflective of the general BPD population.

pwBPD often seem irretrievably broken by life events as a young person. This is a simple fact. Although their is a degree of genetically predisposed sensitivity, it is the great environental trauma to the soul that brings about this terrible disorder.

The truth is these relationships are very much hard work and far harder than a "normal" relationship and in many instances impossible to remain healthy. The improvements are often three steps forward and two steps back... .if not completely back to square one.

Or in the case of the posters on here... .much worse off than before they even started.

I don't like to place blame and I see my BPD relationships as a gift of sorts but the fault (if there is one) lies with the person who is responsible for the worst behaviour... .which is often terribly destructive on a scale to the depth of the disorder of that individual.

And that my friends, is the very DSM definition of BPD.

I agree with you, Turkish, this site has helped me come to many better understandings about myself, and my past, as well as the person I was recently with and the relationship we shared. Partially due to clearing away the FOG and having better personal boundaries, the r/s ended, so it hasn't lead to a happier ending as much as a less disordered one.

The PI board is kind of hit or miss. What would be welcome here would be a board where pwBPD/traits felt free enough to post their thoughts and feelings. Their experiences. Their 'side' of things. It seems they're chased away more than encouraged to participate, yet more knowledge and closure, to just mention two vital pieces of this puzzle, could possibly occur if they were included. There could even be more 'happy endings' for the pwBPD, as we could all be helping each other face the facts and heal. Together. Honesty would be a real key there. Maybe that's just a daydream though... .

I'll say that "emotional maturity" can include staying with someone you love for as long as you can, and isn't always based on our own needs, fears, or mistakes. "Common behaviors" are common behaviors yet are often dismissed under the umbrella of 'we should've known better/left sooner'. It's on Us, yes, but we are also affected by outside forces sometimes.

Myself said:


I agree. We need to give our stayers more respect, generally. Leaving doesn't necessarily come from emotional maturity, staying doesn't necessarily come from emotional immaturity.

It seems to me that, many many leavers here would have preferred to have been able to stay with their pwBPD had that been possible. Those here, who did stay, challenge our tentatively held belief that we did the right thing and make us feel uncomfortable, totally unintentionally, of course. As leavers, we are often grieving, often angry and desperate to feel we did the right thing because, deep down, we see ourselves as the cause of our own suffering. We can't bear to accept the blame anymore than our pwBPD can. The thing is, it's not about blame. Even taking responsibility for ourselves isn't enough. The disorder is a big issue even if we can do things to ameliorate the impact of it.

We have to remember that every couples' relationship is different, because pwBPD are very different even if there are behaviours in common. I think it's time we stopped passing judgement upon each other. We are all doing our best and suffering terribly because our best doesn't seem to be enough or because we're devastated by our loss. I'd like to celebrate all those men and women who commit to change themselves so they can love their partners more effectively, whether as stayers or as leavers. Personal change is a difficult road. It is painful, long term and often unsupported therapeutically due to financial constraints.

Love

Lifewriter

We could name it "black and white".   :)

My mid-20s daughter struggled who struggled with alcohol and drug addiction has been sober for three years.  She was in a dual diagnosis program which treated both the addiction and her underlying psychological issues concurrently (there is an 80% comorbidity).  Four months of 8 am-10 pm seven days a week inpatient treatment involving DBT, psychotherapy, trauma/grief, FOO and a host of others.  I recognize this is tangential from the BPD focus but the commonalities for success are:

---Commitment to a ongoing recovery program for the rest of one's life

---Highly skilled therapists and care providers

---Supportive family/peer group

---Progress measured daily with success measured in months and years

---Financial resources (sadly this is one of the chief reasons most efforts fail)


My point would be after having lived thru this entire process is that recovery CAN happen (whether it be alcohol and drug addiction or BPD)but unless it includes an incredible amount of courage, commitment and stamina on the part of the addicted/disordered individual it WON'T happen.  Even throwing this amount of effort behind recovery results in a fairly low success rate.  Additionally, my daughter only had to unwind about six to seven years of disruptive behavior habits.  Many posters on these boards have pwBPD partners who have been afflicted for decades.  My 2 cents worth for what it is worth.

Myself wrote---

What would be welcome here would be a board where pwBPD/traits felt free enough to post their thoughts and feelings. Their experiences. Their 'side' of things. It seems they're chased away more than encouraged to participate, yet more knowledge and closure, to just mention two vital pieces of this puzzle, could possibly occur if they were included. There could even be more 'happy endings' for the pwBPD, as we could all be helping each other face the facts and heal. Together.

---My view is that if a pwBPD is/was also involved in a relationship with a pwBPD, then they would be more welcome. Yes, the feedback from a pwBPD can give us insight. It is also important, though, for boundaries to be in place. It is similar to having alcoholics go to AA and their relatives go to Al-Anon---2 separate support systems.

JohnLove wrote---

DBT is a very formal and expensive treatment modality which is why it not even offered in my geographical region. When researched in depth the published studies of the "success" rate of DBT involves small groups that suffered from severe traits like suicide attempts and self-harm via cutting. The published success rates pertain to those patients not committing suicide and refraining from further self harm. While that is great for those involved and those committed to treatment and getting better, it is hardly indicative of the general BPD population and the complexity of this disorder.

-----True.  The DBT studies I have looked at reflect a reduction in suicidal behavior and hospitalization rates (which are very important) but not as much progress in the areas of other traits.  It's also important to look at who is measuring those traits----the pwBPD (who often splits themself as all good)? The clinician who is part of the research study, who sees the pwBPD weekly? They may not be accurate reflections of how the pwBPD is making progress at home 7 days per week. 

  Progress is possible, but it's important to keep in mind that this is a "personality disorder"---meaning it is about the person's personality, character, and enduring, chronic, long-term traits. As opposed to an acute diagnosis which is very different, and has a different future outcome.

Good topic of discussion. I'm grateful that we have a support system on the air like bpdfamily. Everyone's personal story is different but my ex is not diagnosed. I was told by a family member after the break-up that she has traits of BPD.

I think that the most emotionally distressing feelings that I experienced is that a lot of people in my support system didn't want to flirt with the idea that she suffers from mental illness. Even if they did I don't think that they could connect with me or give me guidance, advice, information and the tools to turn a hopeless situation into an empowering one.

I felt hopeless talking to my T and P when it came to my ex wife because she's not diagnosed and I felt like they weren't hearing my side of the story with how I really experienced. They said its best not to diagnose her, which is true but we can look at traits if the borderline personality type. It helps that I understand BPD psychopathology and know the dynamics and tools so that I can lead and coach with my ex wife with co-parenting when she's emotionally unstable,  projects, blame shifts because she's floundering.

All of the information, support, guidance is all in one place available 24 / 7. I felt like I had nobody in real life to turn to that would hear what I had to say and give me guidance to turn things around. From my perspective, bpdfamily helped me turn my life around and my family thrives. I'll never forget all of the wonderful people here.

My ex is undiagnosed too, although he was supposedly in the process of getting that going when we split and he quit when I ended things.  This place has been invaluable for me too, realizing that I'm not alone.  My own family members don't "believe" in mental illness so I don't have their support.  My healing has involved dealing with my own FOO issues and I have chosen distance from people who can't/won't be there for me whether they are family or friends.  I have so much support from a core group of amazing friends that it isn't a huge loss, but it does hurt. 

I bet even if there is the rare post of a success story here or somewhere else that very possibly the next day after that nice post the NON unexpectedly ends up getting cheated on or possibly instead got punched in the head and had to call the cops, was ripped off or just got abandoned. Maybe the Non wasn't able to post an update to the previous thread with something such as a "I spoke too soon" failure post. Maybe the lack of a follow-up is due to embarrassment or depression. Also a failure to update the story could be explained by understanding that the pwBPD stole the NONs computer before abandoning the relationship which left the NON without internet access. My X took the money but didn't steal the computer fortunately.

AwakenedOne,

:) lol... .you Cynic... .:) lol

Panda39

AMEN!

Hello Learning Fast, your 2cents is completely valid and I am very happy to hear your daughter is now sober (and doing well?).

The point of difference here is that drug and alcohol issues start later in life but do have underlying physiological issues. The person is using them as a form of escape.

With BPD, this psychological disorder sometimes involves self harm (with drug and alcohol abuse) but it is my experience that these things are used to self sooth an extremely serious mental disorder that usually started very early in life. BPD has it's roots often in infancy.

I wholeheartedly agree with your points that were the method to which your daughters success followed... .it seems recovering alcoholics are always recovering alcoholics.

What is interesting about BPD is my previous uBPD partner is still abusing alcohol (25+ yrs) and my current dBPDgf has abused alcohol and went to 1 seminar but is easily able to abstain from it.  

On those points my observations are:

With or without a diagnosis pwBPD like to pretend nothing is actually wrong with them.  

Highly skilled (in BPD) therapists are as rare as rocking horse poop.  :)

Family and peer groups are most often painted black, or simply do not understand.   :'(

It is usually seemingly impossible to measure improvement daily with BPD as just when you think they've made progress or even enjoyed a deeper understanding, it is undermined just as fast.  

And as for financial resources, every BPD I know are extremely impulsive and squander their financial resources almost to the point of ruin.    I'm guessing that's where you came in to facilitate your daughters recovery.  :)

Thanks for sharing your story. I want hope for myself and others, but I'm also sticking to the facts where BPD is concerned.

JohnLove,

Agreed in that this was more of an apple to oranges instead of an apples to apples comparison.  The point that I was trying to make is that in both instances commitment, stamina, support and finances are virtually mandatory in order to achieve a positive outcome.  Sadly, even with all of these resources deployed success is elusive and variable.  I applaud any of those who are afflicted that are able to reach this milestone.

JohnLove,

Forgot to add---congrats to your current dBPDgf on her abstinence!  Additionally, talented and experienced BPD psychs are a needle in a haystack compared to substance abuse experts.  Very unfortunate as the resources are simply not available for those afflicted with BPD.

Thanks Learning Fast. I agree. In any recovery, total dedication by the sufferer and deep support from those around them are often vital to any continued or long term success.

All the best to you and your daughter.  :)

JohnLove,

Thanks and of course to you as well.

LF

Worthwhile discussion with a lot of good insights.

There are some posters here who have managed to find a way to make their relationship with a BPD succeed. From what I've read it seems to have a taken a lot of work on both sides and that seems to be absolutely key. It's rare but it can happen

A relationship with someone who either has traits or a full blow personality disorder exposes our vulnerabilities in ways that are very hard to understand unless you've lived through it.

Would we tick along fine if we hadn't had a relationship with someone disordered?

Perhaps but there of plenty of dysfunctional relationships and broken marriages that don't involve people with PDs.

And I think most of us are drawn and stay in these relationships for various reasons. I know I was...

As far as treatment goes I think BPD is very hard to treat and it's even harder to find good therapists who understand how to treat it.

DBT seems to work well for managing the most severe symptoms and Schema Therapy seems to be a good tool for building on that.

But there's no miracle cure and it takes a huge amount of time and commitment and money.

In my experience deep sustained change is very very hard whether you suffer from a PD or not

I didn't discover BPD Family until after my relationship ended but it's provided a huge amount of insight and support and really helped to unravel what happened with my ex. A big part of that has been learning to examine and understand my own behaviour and personality. Not always comfortable but enormously helpful

Reforming