BPDFamily.com

Today started out contentious because I found out my SO did not go to church and I was disappointed. Yes, I know I should not have an expectation of him going to church. I was not able to go to church either as my teenager does not want to go to church and I do not want to leave her home alone. I will be getting help with someone from my parish to deal with this problem.


I told my SO if he hung up on me a 3rd time that I would not talk to him for the rest of the day. He hung up on me once on the phone. I called him back to let him know I wasn't finished talking. Then later he sent me a text "I will get back with you around 3pm est

and no more txt from me".  That didn't work for me as I am expecting a phone call from a parish member about my daughter and I also want to go out for a run. I facetimed him to tell him the way he was talking to me wasn't working for me, I would have preferred it if he said "I would like to call you back at 3pm EST, will that work for you?"

He ended up hanging up on me on that FaceTime call. I facetimed him back to tell him if he did that again I wouldn't be talking to him the rest of the day and then  he hung up on me a third time.  I put my cell phone in do not disturb mode so he called me on my home phone to apologize for hanging up on me. First he apologized for getting irritated then he started to talk about he knew I was under stress and I cut him off and told him it had nothing to do with me being under stress, either he was sorry or he was not.

One of the problems we were having this morning is I was trying to get him to understand that I experience any emotionally laden text message as passive aggressive.

Do you think its appropriate to tell a 56 year old man this, three strikes and you're out? I feel like I'm treating him like a child however I don't like the way he's treating me and I don't know what else to do.


Also,  I noticed he interrupted me and I started making a tally of the times he interrupted me. He did not like this, however  it was a good reality check for me. Again I am open to suggestion if I am not doing this correctly. In SWOE it suggests keeping a log of borderline behavior. I know others have mentioned interrupting people is a common borderline behavior.

So if I accept his apology and FaceTime  him back is that reinforcing his bad behavior or is it moving forward?

Reading this it seems really childish and immature but this is what we go through on a weekly if not daily basis and I want to shed some light on it. Anybody else I would talk to about this would tell me to leave the relationship. In fact one of the things I told him today is that I have to contain an inordinate amount of anger in order to stay in the relationship and some people would leave with all that anger. I also told him I was trying to be patient. I actually told him the amount of excuses he gave me was like his homework ate his dog and he told me that was very clever. I can't take credit for that line. I feel like this relationship has all but destroyed my ability to be clever. I know I probably shouldn't have said that but I am very frustrated, as I said.

The thing that created the conflict on FaceTime is I was trying to talk to him about the fact that my 15 year old has a hickey on her neck and he kept calling it a mark and that was triggering me. One of the reasons I stay in the relationship with him is because he is so helpful with parenting and I pointed this out to him. So I got triggered, was trying to handle that, meanwhile he was irritated. Not a good combination.

I know some people might ask me why am I trying to coparent with a pwBPD and the answer to that would be usually I find him helpful.

Every time I try to start a thread it runs into something else so I'm sorry if this is confusing for any readers.

Thank you in advance for any replies.

Can you see the triangulation going on here, unicorn? It's fine to assert a boundary (and his hanging up, no matter how rude, was his boundary), but you enacted a "game" here, where you seemed to trap him into doing what you knew he was going to do in the first place. This seems like the "Kick Me" game, where you, the Persecutor-Parent trapped him in the role of Victim-Child. You acted one way, and he reacted based upon your actions. It's like as a parent, going into your teenager's room, smelling smoke, and asking, "who's been smoking in here?" when you know full well that it was your teen. It's playing a game where there can be no possible winners.

How about losing the "3 strikes" rule (which sounds like a judicial-correctional term, where there is a judge, courtroom, police, and prison), and make it a simple boundary: short of dropped calls, 1 hang up and you're done for the day.

Thank you Turkish, I will try that rule tomorrow.

What about when I hang up on him? I have a boundary where I terminate conversations with people who put down and humiliate me. How do I enforce a boundary around him hanging up on me when I also need to hang up on him?

I recognize this is crazy.

I know I've done some creative editing of your post, I cut out the rest and highlighted just this part. I've mentioned boundaries in other posts and this seems like a great example of blurry lines. A 56 year old man can decide whether to attend church or not.

Chump I said I recognize I should not be mad at him for not going to church.

-

The question is do I tell him if you hang up on me I won't talk to you anymore today? Do I text him that after he hangs up on me? What about if I terminate the call because he put me down or humiliated me? Do I not talk to him for the rest of the day?

 

Turkish is spot on... .SIMPLE IS BETTER.

The value/boundary should be a simple direct statement... .make it about you... .if it is about him... it is more like a punishment.

"If I need to take a break from communicating from my SO, I will take a break for 24 hours"  (or 1 day)

"Telling" him why sounds very close to "explaining". 

Much better to show him.

"I'm not able to continue this conversation right now.  I will call you tomorrow morning"  No explanations... .no threats.

So don't say... ."you hung up on me... so I'm going to (fill in blank)"

If you make it about you... .and stay calm... .he will figure it out.

FF

I hear what you are saying. So I guess if he hangs up on me and calls me back I could tell him that?

-

And I guess if I feel put down or humiliated I can tell him the same thing and then hang up. In that case I would probably say I can't continue this conversation right now I'll call you back in an hour.

-

It was actually him telling me he would get back with me at a certain time that upset me.

-

"If you hang up on me, I will not answer any subsequent calls until the next day." Firm, and consistent. And don't call him back. BIFF: brief, informative, friendly, firm. Deviating will lead to confusion.

Agree about the church thing (or anything similar). It's his choice to do, or not.

Keep it simple, keep it consistent.

Turkish so what do I do if he hangs up on me before I get a chance to say that?

-

I know I should not be mad at him for not going to church.

-

Send it in an email. BIFF. No more than a sentence or two. If he responds with a long-winded diatribe, then validate, and BIFF it shorter, then don't respond further. Enforce your boundary, don't call him back to JADE (which from my view is what you may have done). Be consistent, and don't create a target other than a from boundary.

Well, it clearly didn't work, if you look at the results.

Your assessment of how you feel about his treatment of you is spot-on. It is really sucky.

Your assessment is that you are treating him like a child is also pretty close to spot-on. Emotionally, I've compared a pwBPD to a three-year-old before, so that is pretty tempting.

However, no, it didn't work. While he may be acting like a three-year-old, if your relationship is one where you act like his parent, this isn't gonna work.

So how would I do things differently?

First, boundary enforcement is NOT to change his behavior. It is to protect you from the consequences of his behavior. This three-strike rule of yours feels more like punishment to me than protecting yourself.

Second, when you tell him that you are going to do this, that is like giving him a challenge. So I'm not surprised he did hangup on you three times, then tried to push you around this.

Last, I'm going to suggest that you re-think your view of him hanging up on you--it really helps you, instead of hurting you.

Why does he hang up on you? Because he is upset and having trouble managing his emotions around you, if not fully dysregulated. If he is like this, you do NOT want to talk to him. Nothing good will come of the conversation at that time, and it doesn't matter if you have finished what you are trying to tell him or not--he isn't in a state he will listen to you and respond reasonably. He's more likely to be verbally abusive, and otherwise difficult. This is the kind of time where you should be getting ready to get off the phone to protect yourself from the CRAP he's about to say.

If he WANTS to get away from you at any given time, letting him go away is the best thing you can do for your relationship!

It would be really nice if he was self-aware and could politely say "I'm too upset to talk to you right now, lets get back to this topic later when I've calmed down. I still love you. Goodbye."

He's not. Instead he hangs up on you. You might do well to mentally make the translation next time he hangs up on you.

Still, the result he's aiming for is a the best possible one at the time, and one that many members here have real trouble getting their pwBPD to support. They want to get out of a fight before the two of them hurt each other more than they already have... .and as they try to leave, the pwBPD keeps chasing them around and trying to keep them fighting.

Ok... .let me step down off that soapbox lol

What do YOU do when he's hung up on you and you feel hurt and rejected, and want to finish the discussion you were having before he hung up?

First, give yourself time for your emotions to calm down and return to normal (non-fight) levels. At least 15-20 minutes.

Second, stay away from him until the hot part of your anger or other negative feelings have faded.

Start doing something that you will find enjoyable or productive that doesn't involve him in anyway, rather than getting stuck focused on what he was doing. If whatever you were trying to discuss is really important and bugging you, perhaps come here and post the whole story, then try to get about your day for a bit.

Only after calming down a bit think about contacting him again.

Grey Kitty your approach works better as telling him I'd call him tomorrow after he hung up on me in the morning would be very extreme for our relationship, not to mention I hung up on him a couple of times.

-

I know what happened yesterday. I'm having a problem getting my teen to church, so I'm not going because I can't trust her to stay home alone. Yesterday was a perfect example, she got in trouble, again.

-

I am mad at him because he is not reconciling himself to church and keeps talking about I love you, I miss you, we're a family, and yet he's not doing the very thing that would make us a family.

-

I think on a deeper level I'm struggling with the results of his actions  of over three years ago where feelings equal facts and he initiated a long distance relationship with me while still married.

-

I get irritated every single time he tells me he misses me because the only times he's seen me are when he's stayed in my apartment, or we've stayed in a hotel.

-

That is not a boundary issue, that's me having a problem with his feelings equal facts.

-

I feel like I haven't even had an opportunity to miss him yet because our relationship has not yet looked like the way I want it to be.

-

It really bothers me when he tells me he misses sleeping with me.

-

I'm struggling with my own conservative values and realizing they may be too conservative, which does tie back into boundaries because boundaries are values. I think if I were to replace the word boundaries with the word values I'd probably have an easier time of it.

-

Its possible I picked a fight with him yesterday because I was annoyed with him for sleeping in and not going to church coupled with the fact that I could not go to church. He doesn't have a teen and he does have a car, I don't, so I was like "what's his problem, he doesn't have the same obstacles I do." I recognize and know this attitude is wrong. I could write more but I have work to do so I'll write more later.

Your fellow may have a big divorce Catch-22 on his plate.

On the one hand, he'd like to continue to travel to see you; buy you gifts; and otherwise act like a supportive life partner. On the other hand, the more he does so, the further he may fall from divorce-ready status.

Here's a general article on dissipation of marital assets, American-style. It's written to address specific rules in the state of Colorado, but it would probably apply to my state too as well as many other U.S. states, as a general overview:

https://www.ggfamilylaw.com/content/divorce-and-dissipation-hidden-assets-and-spending

So, this is my long-winded way of saying I think the advice you're getting from formflier and Grey Kitty is very good advice. Steer clear of the issue of marital status (hard as that may be) and concentrate on communication tools as you work your way through values and decisions.

Thank you Kate Cat, he has not traveled to see me since June when I put the brakes on the relationship. I had asked him to show me he filed in June but he already bought tickets to come see me. In September I found out there was no divorce filed with the court. He maintains he filed and either his lawyer did not file with the court or the court did not file the papers. He says he is looking for a new lawyer.

He does continue to buy me gifts, and they are a mixture of practical and romantic gifts.

I did ask him point blank if the article you suggested is the reason his divorce is getting held up, and he asked me where I got the article instead of answering my question. This will be an interesting conversation. You may have hit pay dirt. He's being very evasive about answering my question. I will let you know what I find out.

Meanwhile as I said I have realized my values may be a bit too conservative and I may have to become a little more liberal.

I do think its positive I am building a relationship with his parents/dad. That does give me hope, make me feel optimistic. If I do take the issue of his marriage out of the picture he is suited to me as a life partner in terms of the work he does and the kind of work I want to do. Its kind of ironic, I feel like his marriage is like my ex husband's drug abuse. Both either are getting or got in the way of a healthy relationship.

---

A current problem I am having with him is his constant I miss you, I love you, I wish I were sleeping with you, I like being with you, you look nice, all day, every day. I could talk more about this later if someone would direct me to creating a proper topic for it.

Exiting a long marriage is one of the hardest things a middle-aged person may ever have to do, even when there's a compelling reason to divorce.

I happened to hear from my friend who is in the divorce process just this week. He now has an agreement in hand (following an all-day mediation session which ended with him writing over $15K in checks to lawyers and paralegals in attendance, for services rendered during just that one session). His divorce decree should now issue shortly. He too is a businessman, and with one stroke of the pen his net worth will be cut in half. And the same will go for his ex, so nobody is celebrating.

Yes and my SO is significantly older then me.

My SO said the short answer to is that his problem, the article you gave me, no, however he does have an agreement that curtails his spending.

-

I think for me what frustrates me the most of all is my SO promised me all these things I wanted, most of all an intact family, and now its been 3 years Ive been in this LDR with no end in sight. He is working on earning money with the intent of supporting himself and my family, so he's not being negligent.

-

He recently increased his dosage of medication so he is less reactive to me which really helps.

-

I agree that the 3 strikes and you're out rule is immature, so I'm glad I talked about it here. I'm going to read through this thread again and take notes for the next time I either feel like hanging up on him or he hangs up on me so I can handle it better. Today we were able to talk about his divorce without a fight and I thanked him for it.

A quick reality check here.  Not only is there no end in site... .but in three years the trip hasn't even started... .right?

It is very likely that a complicated divorce situation will take a long time to meander through the court system.  Lots of discovery, motions, filings, hearings... . 



However... none of those things start until one party actually files for divorce with the court.  Filing with a lawyer... is not a term I have ever heard about.  We've had lawyers in previous threads explain this procedure.

One thing that KateCat didn't mention was how long the friend had been dealing with this.

What is your expectation on when he will actually be divorced so the r/s with you can proceed?

I'm glad you were able to have a discussion about divorce without a fight... .however I thought there was talk on this thread of not talking anymore to him about the divorce.   His business... .let him handle it.  And to be clear... .there is no divorce... .only talk of maybe doing it someday.

As far as hang ups are concerned you need to both agree on a right and wrong way of ending a conversation if either of you feel triggered. This is why he does it. His emotions become overloaded and he doesn't have a healthier 'go to" way to disengage.

":)o not hang up on m", without an acceptable alternative is in fact a controlling action rather than a boundary.

Once you have that in place then a one strike rule consistently applied is better. Three strikes allows the behavior sometimes and is bordering on intermittent reinforcement. It should be about the behavior not counting incidences, which leads to brinkmanship

If the RS does progress past LDR that is substantially changing the status quo, do you thing deep down that is a threat to him, hence the "barriers"

Wrong, the trip has started as he under an agreement not to spend joint assets.


Yes, that is what he told me.


He delegated filing with the court to his lawyer, he said.


I have no idea.


I simply asked him if that article was relevant.

There is something as he can not use joint assets, however whatever money he earns from here on out as his to keep.

I'm mad about being in this position in the first place, LDR with a pwBPD traits. However its not like there's anybody else suitable. Having never been in a LDR I had no idea what was in store for me. I know that BPD family advises against them. Unfortunately I only came to BPD family after I got in a LDR.

I couldn't find anybody intellectually compatible locally. I got into this relationship as the result of liking  my partner's creative work. Getting into a romantic relationship was not my intention. Intellectually the relationship is great. Everybody that met my SO said "unicorn he is great for you, he is very smart just like you are." Unfortunately along with creative genius comes mental illness. That is the foundation of our relationship. I rarely talk about that part.  My SO is very high functioning.

I hear what you are saying and sometimes I have to hang up on him too.

Currently he's upset about the situation in France as all emotionally sensitive people are. I don't pay attention, that's how I take care of myself. I would advise him to do the same, but he already knows that.

People advised taking a break anywhere from 20 minutes to 1 day. I remember I used to talk about ended calls all the time with a former therapist, it used to happen on FaceTime a lot when he was in his old house. That was before I started writing on BPD family.

I know what happened yesterday. I was upset with him for not going to church, and I was also upset because I wasn't going to church. I was also upset because I had discovered a hickey on my daughter's neck the night before and I hadn't told my partner about it, so I probably had my knickers in a twist. Then when he tells me he misses me I want to go off on him because there's nothing he can do to help me.

Today I was actually able to tell him that it confuses me when he tells me he misses me but there are no plans to come see me. He said he thought that he wasn't going to come see me until his situation was resolved. I said that was true. He really didn't know there was a problem with his divorce.

I think the problem with my partner and I is we both can get heated however he did increase the dosage of his medication so he is less overreactive now which really helps both.

I think the next time either he hangs up on me or I hang up on him I'm going to immediately bring it here and try as much as possible to report factually what happened so the staying board can help me even more.

Also I have a big win to report, my partner said he would both get us copies of the high conflict couple again. I had given mine away to my ex partner in the hopes it would help with co-parenting but then I found out my ex-partner was still actively using drugs, so that dashed all hopes to the ground. That of course is an issue for the co-parenting board, except for the fact there is no co-parenting at all.

Waverider, I do not know. He was all set to move out here in the end of October, when I discovered his divorce hadn't been filed with the court, that changed everything. He had to call off realtors, and storage units. I don't know how he let it get to that point but as I mentioned before he is a businessman and he did delegate his divorce to his lawyer.

OTOH I am happy that he stopped his moved because I didn't want that complication on my doorstep. OTOH I am unhappy because now he can't even come see me to take me out to a movie, dinner, the zoo, a hike, etc.

I definitely was not planning on getting a 3 year long LDR.

I do know that when he's constantly telling me he loves me, he misses me, he's glad he knows me, etc, its annoying to me because of the current state of things.

This detail has been discussed a lot on here.

If it is your belief that he told a lawyer to file, and that lawyer went against his clients wishes, or was incompetent and couldn't file a document with the court, then go with it.

If it is your belief that you caught him not telling the truth or omitting details, there still is really no reason to keep bringing up this detail.

There is obviously something holding up filing the divorce.  From everything I have read on here, it is doubtful the "real reason" will ever be known.

I am convinced the best was forward for your r/s and for chances that he may eventually file for divorce is to STOP DISCUSSING DIVORCE WITH HIM.

From everything I know about a pwBPD traits he is feeling "pressure" from you and is resisting.  Again... we'll never know why for sure.

If you stop talking about it... .the pressure may go away (he may be getting pressure from other sources as well)... .and perhaps the divorce may move forward.

FF

FF, I'm not discussing it with him, I simply asked him a question and we had a reasonable discussion about it. There was no problem with us today. The problem is me. I'm not happy about the situation. I would like things to be different. I'm a SAHM in a LDR. Its far from ideal.

I can tell you an interesting story. One time I was discussing my life goals with him including buy a car and a condo, he got very upset. Its as if he wants me to wait around for him to move out here so he can buy a house for us to live in.  That was very telling. I'm not going to not have life goals while I wait for him to get a divorce. I remember a former therapist saying maybe I don't even want to live with him.  My own life got derailed when I filed for divorce 10 years ago and I'm still recovering from that.

From here on out whenever I have a conversation with him that seems sketchy to me I will bring it to the board.

I like to cut things down to the essential things, and here is your situation as I see it today:

You are in a LDR, engaged to a married man whose divorce is going very slowly, and whose statements about working on the divorce are not credible, and a source of big fights.

Question: You are a SAHM... .Is he supporting you financially? You mentioned gifts... .would you be able to live well without his gifts?

You are refusing to let him come and visit you or move closer to you at least until he files for divorce, if not until he completes his divorce.

You can only make choices about the things you control--how much you let him into your life. You cannot control his divorce.


I think you are stuck with some serious cognitive dissonance here--he is expressing love, commitment, desire with his words. Yet his actions on the commitment side are severely lacking.

I'm guessing that the result is you don't know what to believe and it makes it harder for you to appreciate the good parts.

It took my friend two years of sitting down with an individual therapist twice a week to make the decision to file. However, the court action itself looks likely to conclude in under a year.

How can that be? Maybe because he lives in a U.S. state that has both "fault" and "no fault" divorce. Having ample grounds for beginning the action as a "fault" divorce, he did that. And thereby streamlined things. He had the upper hand.

Also, he is an upstanding guy. No "fault" on his side. Because his state may also allow for things like "alienation of affection" suits against a paramour; subpoenas issued to a paramour; compelled testimony of a paramour on the witness stand. Costly, ugly stuff.

I think it's critical not to discuss his divorce with him.

Absolutely not. Live well? I managed on my own without him for 7 years. He did help me pay off some dental bills like a root canal as I don't have dental insurance. I did just fine before I met him. I just have to say this really strikes a nerve with me. I would never allow a married man to support with gifts. That is morally reprehensible to me. I am not a kept woman. I appreciate the contributions he makes to me and my daughter however they are not necessary, they simply improve quality of life. For that I am eternally grateful as I was severely neglected when I met him, however being an adult child of a dysfunctional family, I could survive like that for the rest of my life.


No, I'm refusing to let him stay in my apartment. I wish he would come and visit. He actually does not want to move out here with things being unresolved. He did not know things were unresolved.





He is committed, however he had a prior commitment that is holding him back. However I do agree with you. He's telling me he loves me, he misses me, he enjoys being with me, he's glad he knows me, meanwhile his assets are locked up so he has to earn money so he can come visit me. I would be very happy if he were to move out here, get his own place, and we were to have our own relationship. All I asked that he get the ball rolling on his divorce, not that it be finalized. I understand that that could take a long time. I thought it unwise for him to move out here without his divorce even being filed with the court.

So, can I tell him I'm experiencing cognitive dissonance?



No, I'm frustrated that he expects me to put my life on hold while I wait for him to get his divorce. I was ready to go when I met him.

(I am trying to transition out of being a SAHM but I have been experiencing setbacks since July.)

Hey... .I think it would be good to slow down on issues, decisions, advice... .   I don't understand at all how you can not discuss it with him... .but then have a reasonable discussion about it... . 

There has been lots of discussion and questions... but I'm confused about what you have and haven't decided... or even what you are upset about.

I don't think there is anyone on this board that is offering you advice that thinks it would be helpful for you to discuss, question, mention, hint, email, text, facetime... .or with any other form of communication... .the word divorce with him.

It's out of your control.  He obviously has some tall tales surrounding it... .and lot of smoke gets made that seems to obscure issues that perhaps are more important.

FF

FF, I hear what you are saying and I simply wanted to know if the article that was posted  had anything to do with his delay. I know I made a mistake to ask him about it. It is very hard for me to "let go and let God" on this one but I really am trying.

Every day, all day  I hear I love you, I miss you, I want to be with you, I enjoy being with you, I like you, you look nice, I'm glad I know you, I wish this was over, I want to get on with my life, all his terms of endearment for me, I want to get you this, I want to get you that.

I am experiencing major cognitive dissonance, its true.

OK, this guy you've identified as older, a businessman and smart. That he didn't know the divorce wasn't filed or that things were "unresolved"--I'm sorry--this bullsh-t stinks to high heaven. He's over 50--anyone that old would know something about divorce and legal matters. You absolutely know when you're divorced--been through it--it's not just giving some attorney papers to file. I think you're getting played. Do you really have verification that he actually sold his business and that he no longer lives with his wife?

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be cruel, but I've seen sociopaths prey upon women for a variety of reasons and there are so many things you relate that raise major red flags.

From what I see, it looks like this relationship is giving you little benefit but major anxiety. You say he's co-parenting your daughter, but soon your daughter will be an adult, maybe even before he can complete a divorce. So I'm just not sure what you're getting out of this relationship or will get out of it in the future.

I wish you well and I think everyone here is trying to help you out, but there's a part of you that keeps saying, "no, that's not the problem" when presented with feedback and advice, then that part continues to complain about the same issue.

Things won't change until you change your behavior. I know that's much easier said than done.  

Cf I know he's not living with his wife and he sold his business because I ft him every day and we share locations and calendars.

-

He never said his divorce was finalized , he just thought it was filed with the court.

-

My ex was a sociopath, my current partner is not.

-

In terms of the future if he can ever get his act together and move out here, yes we have a future together. I very much like his vision of the future. We are both creative individuals and if we had a partnership that actually worked it would allow me to fulfill dreams I had when I was a teenager. His much more suitable to me then my ex for this reason and everyone in my life agrees about that part.

I didn't mean to say your partner is a sociopath. What I meant was that his behavior seems deceitful and that sociopaths engage in deceitful behavior and can lead women on, leading them to believe things to be true that aren't.

In my mind, your partner has told you some big whoppers and I'd be on my guard if I were you.

Another thing to keep in mind is that he told you he was planning on moving near you this fall, yet it appears that he knew his divorce was not finalized. So he was ready to move in with you while he was still married?

There are so many things that don't add up here. How could he pursue his divorce from another state?

Cf, he would never move in with me before marriage.

Yes he was planning on remotely completely his divorce then I found out it hadn't even been filed with the court so he had to hit the brakes.

The big message I'm getting is don't mention the word divorce to him. I mentioned the article to him. That was a mistake according to the board even though he didn't dysregulate and we didn't fight . So the big thing I have to struggle with is the constant affirmations from him, the constant I miss you, I wish I were sleeping with you, I'm enjoying just being with you .

There is a saying that there are two days of the week on which no work can ever be done. Those are yesterday and tomorrow. The only time you can do work is today.

I think your relationship is suffering from a similar issue. Living in a future with him is horribly unsatisfying for you, because it isn't real, it doesn't exist. Yes, it might, but until then, you have to live in today.

What can you do to make today work better for you, starting by accepting things that are part of it whether you like them or not.

He isn't divorced. He may be working as hard as he can to get there. He may be doing nothing. You really can't know for sure. His answers and excuses for the delays are really lame.

At best, he won't be divorced for months. It could be years instead. And you can't know.

He isn't willing to move near you while this is all up in the air. Seems sensible to me, unlike his excuses above, but sensible or stupid, it is outside your control!

You are in a 3+ year LDR with him that could stay that way another 3 years. (Assuming you don't break up)

This is a difficult package for you... .I know it isn't what you want. I know it isn't what you thought you were signing up for. Talking about how unfair or uncomfortable it is that you got here will only distract you from the important question:

What kind of LDR do you want to build with him for months or years?

You can choose how you want to live in this period of your life.

Maybe you will be happier if you focus more of your energy on local friends, activities, trying to get yourself on track for buying a condo, etc. and less facetime with him?

It is YOUR life. You get to choose what you want in it. You get to choose where you focus your time and energy.

I'm pretty sure if your main focus is waiting for him to get divorced and move out with you, you won't be very happy with years spent that way.

I ft him while I cook dinner.

-

I hear what you are saying.

-

I am involved in local activities .

-

If a local man did it for me I wouldn't be in this position.

---

Also my SO is the one with the future focus, I'm the one who's trying to pull him back to the present moment.

I'm talking about your focus, not his. Yes, perhaps you can nudge him in that direction... .but it is his choice to live in today's world and do today's work, or to try to live in a fantasy tomorrow. And you don't have much influence there either.

So as for you ... .and today ... .you keep talking about how annoying and frustrating it is to be the recipient of his love bombing.


You are spending time with a guy who is trying to pull you into his fantasy world, and it isn't at all clear whether he is taking real steps to make it possible someday. And he talks about the fantasy version, the idealized version... .my take from your description... .He isn't talking about nitty gritty details or real stuff that could be a little challenging, or require effort.

Much of your today is him trying to live in a fantasy world with you. And you are grumpily participating in it, the best I can see.

And you REALLY don't sound satisfied with your life today. That is the biggest problem!

That is his choice... .let him focus on whatever he wants to focus on. 

I would bet that if you stop trying to pull him in one direction or another... .things will go smoother.

Focus your "pulling" energy on yourself... .not him. 

FF

Again... .another place to slow down and thoughtfully consider things.

How in the world does face timing him and location sharing and calendar sharing confirm anything about his business or his wife.

I would submit to you that it has very little to do with that. 

Plus... that is his stuff to sort out.  The less you can worry about it... the better.

I really think if you can focus hard on Grey Kitty's thoughts about YOUR CHOICES about what you are doing today... .and consistently do that (that being make choices about things you control)... .I think your level of happiness will skyrocket.

FF

Just a minor course correction:  

"My boundary:  three strikes and you're out"  is an ultimatum.  

"My boundary:  three strikes and I stop picking up the phone, face time etc... ." is a boundary.

Palla, thank you, I agree!

Grey kitty, he is dealing with the nitty gritty.

-

I have my own struggles with symptoms of depression and anxiety. I need to get back to my meditation practice and my happify app.

-

Part of my negative feeling is I am the parent of a teen and that is a universally difficult experience. My teen is not easy. That would be difficult even if I were married.

FF, I have stopped criticizing him about being focused on the future.

FF, I know where his wife lives, I know he let his employees go.

-

I think the problem I need to deal with is his love bombing.

-

Can we focus on that?

-

Also like I said I have my own struggles with depression and anxiety and that I need to get back to my mediation practice, my happify app, and my prayer rule. The other problem is I am separated from my church right now because of my teen, so that's probably one reason I'm so unhappy, which led to this conversation in the first place.

Can we focus on this... .?

Can you make choices about how you spend your time each day that dramatically increases the amount of time and focus on your daughter... .whom it is obvious that you love and care deeply about... .|iiii

And dramatically cut the amount of time that you text, call, facetime, email... or otherwise think about your LDR.

This will also free up his time to work on things he obviously needs to be working on.

Will also give him less time to love bomb you. 

Solved two problems with one solution!

FF

FF, that's not the problem, it's not an issue of time. When we ft my daughter is present and we often solve problems together.

-

 

So... .what is the problem?

FF I'm reading about the term love bombing. It's 3+ years into the r/s, that doesn't seem right.

OK... .if love bombing is the issue then it is fairly simple to solve... .IF... .taking a break from talking to him is a solution that you can choose.

If you are not willing to end a conversation, then the problem will continue.


Make it about you, offer to talk about something else.

Perhaps you can do a SET format that says you understand he misses you, but you don't want to discuss those types of things.

FF

So "dealing" with it. What does that look like?

Step one - Identifying it and naming it.  |iiii You got this one!

Step two - Clearly figuring out what in it is yours and what is his, and keeping yourself focused on working on your side of it.

Yours -- You have a whole bunch of feelings brought up by this. The ones you describe now are negative ones; It brings up feelings of anger, betrayal, etc.

Let me ask you--is this something he's been doing since your LDR started? (Well when he's not dysregulated, at least?) I'm asking because I'm wondering if you felt differently about it earlier in the relationship?

Remember that your feelings are NEVER wrong. And that includes when they change. They are always real, always yours, always matter.

WHY he does this really is his issue, and while it is tempting to speculate and wonder and worry about it, that isn't going to help you. Try to let those thoughts go.

Step three -- Consider actions and goals that fit your values.

Changing his actions or behaviors doesn't really work. So "getting him to stop love bombing you" isn't going to work or help you.

The problem isn't that he's expressing love and affection toward you. That is a good thing, and not something you want to discourage.

The love bombing feels manipulative in this context. That is a problem, and you can work on that. (Biggest one is making sure that it isn't impacting your choices/actions toward him in a way you don't like.)

If he wasn't a pwBPD, you could tell him it makes you feel uncomfortable, perhaps sharing more of your feelings. I think you've been on the staying board long enough to know that his capacity to accept your feelings and deal with them well is very limited, and doing this requires using the best tools you can, and still may not go well... .

Perhaps the biggest problem is that when he starts into it, you find yourself stuffing your feelings and being invalidated. Being told that he loves you while feeling confused and angry at him is invalidating YOUR feelings--when you are being complimented and adored, you are supposed to feel loved and happy, and since you are feeling the opposite, your feelings must be 'wrong' That is invalidating.

Action #1: Stop him from being affectionate. (Unkind/not backed by your values)

Action #2: Share your feelings about this love bombing with him. (Unwise/ineffective. He doesn't have the emotional maturity to deal with your feelings without a LOT of effort on your part)

Action #3: Protect yourself from the invalidating conflicted feelings that this brings up. (This is almost the same as #1, except it is focused on you, not on him.)

That's what I'd try in your shoes. Work very hard at being mindful of conflicted uncomfortable feelings that are yours which come up when he's communicating with you, especially in the love bombing. And if you find this coming up, use the lightest touch you can find to stop it.

• On the phone  or facetime, start by redirecting the subject to something else; perhaps he will get the 'hint'.



• If he keeps coming back, and more importantly, your feelings about it continue to be uncomfortable, end the call



• In text chat/email, you don't have to respond at all. Perhaps delete love-bombing texts so you don't have to see them and think about them.



• Again, directing the conversation to something new may help.



• It also is completely OK to choose not to spend time with him when you aren't enjoying his company. Love bombing may be the trigger for that; Other things he do could be; Or your own feelings could be the source. It doesn't matter what the reason is--you are not required to spend time in contact with him, it is a choice on your part. Choose wisely, and if you are choosing less than he wants, make it clear that it is your choice, own it, and don't make it about him. "I don't feel like talking to you tonight"
  
  Please give yourself the freedom and power to do that any time it is right for you.



• You may need to have a conversation with him about your feelings here, using the best communication tools we have here. Save that for later, after you feel really clear, firm and comfortable with your feelings, and know what you want... .and ask us for help first!

Step four -- taking actions


|iiii You know you have issues like these, and know something of what you can do to cope better with them.

I'm reminded of a Zen proverb about meditation: "Meditate an hour a day. Unless you don't have time. Then meditate two hours a day."

I think that applies well about most forms of self-care like meditation--when you are stressed and need them the most, you are most likely to let them slide. It is natural, we all do it. Understand, be gentle with yourself, and do what you can. 

FF what I was saying is that 3+ years into the r/s the term love bombing doesn't seem right, I think it may have to do more with the idealization phase, which I've read makes nons nervous because it means a devaluation is coming.

Yes and yes, I used to like it.






I read about love bombing last night and it doesn't seem applicable here as its 3+ years into the r/s. It doesn't feel manipulative like the way a sociopath is manipulative. It feels like its expressing fear of abandonment, like he's expressing how he would like me to feel towards him and how he would like me to express myself towards him and I can't. I'm deeply angry at him for triangulating me into his marriage. To me it doesn't matter that he never "was in that marriage" as he puts it. That doesn't matter, his wife was, and she is raising hell about him being involved with me, still. I find that really demeaning and demoralizing.


Neither my first husband nor my current "fiancé" is someone I could express negative feelings to without repercussion. My first husband had sociopathic traits.


Absolutely. I'm angry at him that I am stuck or caught in this LDR with a married man with no end in sight. Now don't get me wrong, when he's with me, when he's here, when he visits, I feel loved, taken care of, like nothing could go wrong and if it did he would take care of it, but to me that's false, a fantasy, an illusion. That was dependent on him staying with me in my apartment and being a part of my life. So that's probably my deepest resentment. The feelings I have with him are very real.




If I told him I didn't feel like talking to him tonight he'd totally dysregulate. The only times we've ever not talked to each other at night has been when he's been dysregulated.




Ok, I guess that will be the next topic, this continuation of love bombing, however based on the term I don't think that would be correct in terms of a pwBPD. I think it more has to do with splitting, and the idealization feeling false because he has verbally abused me before. He denies he splits, but I do think that is the core of my struggle as a non with a pwBPD.


Thank you for your feedback grey kitty, it was very helpful. [/list]

And that, is walking on eggshells. Not being true to yourself and your feelings because you are afraid he will dysregulate.

My answer really think about how this is going... .then put your big girl panties on and allow a few eggshells to break if they've gotta.

Problem: Talking to him is making you feel cranky, confused, etc., etc.

Solution: Tell him you don't feel like talking to him.

Fear: If you tell him this he will dysregulate.

And what does the dysregulation look like?

Choice A: Hanging up on you/shutting you out. (Remember, you wanted some space from him in the first place!)

Choice B: Saying angry/abusive things to you. (Remember, if he does that, the way to protect yourself is to not talk to him!)

If you don't want to talk to him, let him dysregulate.

NOTE: Don't do this to test him, to prove something, or because you have to or should do it. Do it because it is sincerely in line with your feelings! When you really don't feel like talking to him!


I used the phrase love bombing to describe the affection and desire he is showering you with, as a form of "shorthand." To my mind, it fits fairly well, even if it typically is limited to the shorter infatuation phase of a relationship, and will be long gone after three years. (Aside: A LDR can keep the infatuation phase of the relationship going strong for years or even decades, only ending the honeymoon phase after it becomes a domestic/local relationship. This isn't a property of BPD relationships, it is a property of any LDR)

Please don't get too wrapped up about what to call the behavior here. What really matters is finding a healthy way for you to cope with the behavior, not the name.  Please describe it any way that works for you, shorthand or longhand. I'll follow your lead on that.

In terms of choice A, I've actually thought that before and been relieved when he has dysregulated because it gave me what I wanted: space. I think I've probably exerted a lot of effort to prevent his dysregulations and that's been exhausting. He also increased the dose of his medication that slows down his reaction time so he's overreacting less these days. I remember both a former therapist and a former dbt therapist told me I needed to let him regulate his own emotions and I was always afraid to do that, so this isn't news to me. I think now I'm finally at that point where I can allow him to dysregulate without my interference, at least I hope I'm at that point. That is the point I would like to be at anyway.  :)


To be honest, just thinking about him makes me cranky and confused, because when he visits  me he does make me feel loved, taken care of, safe, protected, feelings I never got from my father or my first husband. What is frustrating to me is he has a wife back home he's still not divorced from. He tells me he tells her that they're not living together and he's not financially supporting her. It upsets me that she can call him up and complain that I mailed her father, for example. I've told him many times that our relationship makes me look like the other woman and he reassures me that nobody sees me that way, but I see how people write on these boards. I am sure to the wives of this world, I am the other woman.


Then we can use it, as long as we both understand we're not describing the sociopathic behavior.

I think what I'm getting to is the point where I would like to tell him I would like him to come see me again, knowing full well what I'm getting into, him staying with me, the impropriety of it, because when he comes to visit me we do have good times together and my life has been a really grind lately because of my 15 year old. When he comes to visit me we go out to breakfast, lunch and dinner, we go to the zoo, movies, hikes, we see my parents, we go shopping. I actually get to have fun. When he used to come to therapy with me with a former therapist, who is now his therapist,  who will be our couples therapist if he ever moves out here, used to tell us both to remember to have fun together because we're such serious people. I do miss the companionship, I really do. We're both introverts and we understand each other and we get along real well in person, except when his wife calls him wondering where he is. (That's happened before, even after she moved out. He would come and see me and not tell her. In fact that was always a big drama, when was he going to tell her he was coming to see me... .I was not writing on this board at that phase of the r/s.)

Actually writing this is making me cry.

So yeah, we've hit a nerve.

:'(

Understood |iiii

For the record, I never thought he was a sociopath, and I don't really consider that to be sociopathic behavior. Sociopaths breath, but breathing isn't a sociopathic behavior.  lol


 I love that you are finding the heart of this side of the issue. You are getting where you need to be to accept your life and your relationship as it is here.

I've been in one LDR and observed LDRs that people close to me were in too. Those all-to-brief in-person visits are the most joyful part of a LDR. They are what make it worth putting up with the separated time when you really want to be together. [Also a LDR thing, not a BPD thing!]

Having that next time you will be together on the schedule to look forward to really strengthens an LDR. I've got a friend who uses a countdown phone app to be able to see how many days, hours, minutes, seconds, and milliseconds until the next scheduled time together.


Think of it this way--sometimes you really do need and want space some times. This is about you. It is a natural thing, and that need for space isn't (in itself) a sign of relationship problems. What is the healthy thing to do about it?

Ask him directly for what you need / Tell him directly that you are taking what you need?

-or-

Deny yourself what you need long enough that you get cranky and moody and push his buttons until he blows up, dysregulates, and runs away, giving you the space you need.

It is OK--you can admit that your relationship with him needs both space and closeness, at different times for different reasons. Both are real, both are important. At least admit it to yourself--talking to him about it is a bit more complicated, but there will be a time, place, and method for that too.

The visits do sound like fun. I think this is one of the benefits of LDR, as well as one of the reasons that LDRs often don't survive when the distance is removed. What you describe is basically a fun vacation from life.

Can I ask why you've never visited him? Considering all the other issues with his honesty, this is a red flag.

Flour dust because I have a 15 yo, don't have the income to travel, he now lives in the basement of his former office after selling his 4BDR and he still has a wife.

I would like to meet his family however.

He takes a vacation from his life when he comes to see me.

Grey kitty I will reply later, as I talked to him, and want to report that.

Thank you grey kitty,

After writing a response to you in my journal three times I was able to call my SO and have a conversation with him about the next time I'm going to see him. We were able to establish what is required for that to be able to happen and I was able to walk away from that conversation feeling good about it.




Thank you for this, I haven't been able to say that to him yet and I hope in the future I will be able to.

Right now I feel good that I was able to tell him what I need from him to be able to see him again and he was in agreement with that. We had a rough spot in the conversation and we were able to work through it.

-----

In terms of my original topic, I liked what palla said, instead of three strikes and you're out, three strikes and I no longer pick up phone calls, FaceTime, etc.

--

Today I was able to sit in silence on the phone for a long time with my SO until he finally asked me "are you still there?" and I told him I was waiting for him to say something to which he answered he was waiting for me to say something. In the past I would have hung up the call if there was no response, or gotten agitated, but today I was able to practice the deep breathing I learned in DBT and wait.

Update: my SO just send me a text that said "dear, I'm very glad I know you".

I decided to write about it here first before I responded to him.

The reason he told me that is I offered to send him a copy of an email I sent to my pastor and one of the church school teachers updating them on what's going on with my daughter.

He has met both my pastor and the church school teacher.

I still feel resentment towards my SO for initiating a r/s with me while he was still married to someone else. It doesn't matter what he says to me, that resentment hasn't gone away yet. What I've learned from this board is that it will require action on his part for that resentment to go. We did come up with a working plan so we can see each other again however the resentment I feel is from the last 3 years.

This morning I was thinking about resentment, how it is said to be poison you take so someone else would die. I would like to feel resentful towards my SO wife for contesting their divorce however I learned from this board that a person can not contest a divorce that has not been filed.

I do not know what to say to my SO when he tells me he's glad he knows me.

I'm not glad at all about our situation. In fact I find it humiliating. He would say he's not glad at all about our situation either but I can not separate him from it as he is the who is married, not I.

In a totally honest world I would say I am not glad I know you, you totally distracted me for 3 years. Perhaps its enough that I simply do not respond to that text.

|iiii Not responding sounds good to me!

You will need to work through your resentment over the deception and the waiting eventually. Whether you completely split with him never to contact him again, or marry him, and move in together and happily ever after in a house with a white picket fence... .or anything in between, you will need to deal with it.

However it is very hard to do so when every day is another day that he's still married to somebody else, and not making visible credible progress toward ending it. Which adds another drop of resentment.

Just like for me, after my wife had cheated, I was clear that I couldn't be in a r/s with her if she stayed in contact with the guy. I couldn't heal that wound while she was still cutting away at it.

It sounds like your feelings are still bouncing around a lot about this resentment. Give yourself some time and some emotional space from your SO around this--stay clear of discussions about his divorce for a while.

Not very long ago, you were still trying to fight him over this or force him to take action. All the associated chaos really clouded the waters, and you need (relative) time and peace to find your own stability here.

Until you find that kind of acceptance, do all you can to avoid talking to your SO about these feelings. When you talk to him about it, you will be less clear and less stable than you were before you started talking... .and that's gonna go really badly!

I do feel good about our conversation today. I was able to tell him what I needed from him in order to be able to see him again and he agreed to it. This resentment I'm feeling is historical and I have to be very careful not to dip my toe into it.


That is what is so hard for me on this board. I have a feeling that some people on this board see me as the other woman. I can't live with that. It is ironic that a former therapist said my SO  was in a dead marriage and that if my SO did indeed leave his wife for me that I would get what most women in my situation dream of. I don't feel good about the fact that my SO is leaving his wife for me. The only thing that makes me feel good about that is the fact that he divorced her once before but then went back to her because he felt guilty. I have to remember that because I do feel that makes a difference.


Yes they are, whatever way you cut it, he knew he was married when he started talking to me, I didn't. His wife assumed  I knew he was married,  I didn't. I had even looked him up and saw a woman's name associated with him but I thought it was his sister because he wasn't acting like he had a wife. He told me later that most people that they were brother and sister when they were out together.


I did tell him that in order for me to see him again I needed to know that he had a lawyer and he filed for divorce and he agreed to that and said he would have his lawyer send me copies of all his papers so I had them too.


I will heed your advice. I have my action plan in place. I told my SO what I needed from him in order to see him again and he agreed to it. I wanted him to know I did miss the time we spent together and I did want to see him again however I needed certain things to happen first. I do feel at peace with that now.

Sorry for picking that example--I was comparing the resentment you are feeling to what I was feeling a year ago when I was going through the ending of my marriage.

You are judging yourself about being the "other woman" plenty all by yourself. I can only speak for myself, but I'm not. I'm mainly feeling compassion for the complicated mess you've ended up in.

It really seems like it is the financial/logistical problems of that circumstance without the normal emotional role it has, as he has moved out and (mostly) split financially, if not legally. And realistically, the degree of emotional enmeshment/garbage your SO has with his wife could easily exist in other guys who are already divorced. It is a different problem.

I'm not sure how much the prior divorce/remarriage makes anything better, but that is me. If you take comfort in it, good.

*mod*

This topic has now reached its posting limit and will now be locked.

If there are any points you wish to explore further feel free to open a new topic

Thanks for your participation

Waverider