BPDFamily.com

My previous threads (both locked now):

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286047.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286550.0

I have managed to avoid her "saying goodbye" to me for now, and we have a light talk scheduled for Sunday, and some check-in texting scheduled for Saturday. She says that she feels good about putting aside the drama for the moment and just getting caught up on each other's lives and such. She also mentioned that she's "had a shi**y few weeks" (no idea what that's about), so this seems like a GREAT opportunity for me to do some validating and comforting and generally move our relationship to a more positive place, at least for the moment. A few of you have given me some lovely advice about keeping things calm and being validating, but I feel like I need some more support about NOT talking about our relationship with each other, and keeping the conversation focused on support (which has worked well in the past, now that I think about it). Thoughts? I've heard some conflicting theories on essentially being a source of support/acting as therapist to your pwBPD, especially when they're pulling away and you're in limbo.

Good question.

There is a decent book, I Don't Have To Make Everything All Better

https://bpdfamily.com/book_review/gary_lundberg.htm

I Don't Have To Make Everything All Better is a "how-to" book for people seeking to shed the no-win role of "fixer" with a family member. This is a recommended resource when one's child has Borderline Personality Disorder. Lundberg addresses an all too common dilemma that arises when family members expect us to solve their problems for them.

The way to go is to be empathetic (use active listening skills) but not over reach and take on the role of fixer (or make the relationship the solution or a tool).

I am very fond of our friend Scot who offers this fatherly advice ... .

https://bpdfamily.org/2015/02/video-importance-of-empathy-skills-when.html

(http://www.1.bp.blogspot.com/-DcHQ7dzHm_c/VOGp_5xF1tI/AAAAAAAAA7I/5BciXjKOmfc/s1600/Screen%2Bshot%2B2015-02-16%2Bat%2B2.24.48%2BAM.png)

How are you empthy skills and empathy boundaries?

Oh I'm not interested in being a "fixer" - I learned that lesson years ago. It just feels ... .I don't know ... .compromised to put myself in a position where I'm being supportive of someone who outright refuses to be supportive of me in return. That might be a temporary state, but I can't count on that.

I've done a lot of work about my codependence/perfectionism/enabling/settling behaviors and thought patterns. I think I maybe haven't had enough practice post-therapy about distinguishing the line (in practice) where I'm crossing over into being more supportive of someone that I genuinely DO want to support than is healthy.

I'll check out the video!

When she pulls away, you're probably responding with your own attachment behaviors. The fixing/rescuing/enabling behaviors tell us that we feel good when we have a purpose that makes us feel worthy. This is good stuff to know.

The attachment behaviors (protesting, distancing, pursuing) helps explain what we tend to do when closeness and intimacy ebb and flow in the relationship. (Which, btw, happens in all relationships -- in BPD relationships, the ebbing and flowing is more extreme).

This is a good resource to read about attachment behavior in adult relationships (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=279028.msg12639676#msg12639676).

Can you say what you mean about theories about supporting/acting like your BPD's therapist? What would that be like in practice?

Very interesting link! I've definitely read about attachment styles, but that's a particularly good synopsis. It's hard to nail down exactly what her attachment style is - I've seen avoidant AND anxious from her, but never secure. I like to think mine is fairly secure, but during our relationship it was probably bordering on avoidant, and now it's definitely anxious. We seem to have switched poles frequently during our time knowing each other.


Well, it's complicated. She once said straight up "I get more out of talking to you than I do with my therapist", and has reiterated that a few times to me, but she has a different, better therapist now, so I don't know if that's still true. I think that comes from the fact that I've done my core therapy work and she is just starting hers, so there's always been this dynamic of me being the more skilled/balanced/emotionally stable one, and her being the one dealing with being process-unfamiliar, and with some measure of extinction burst in starting her work. In practice, it's mainly me giving her advice or wisdom. For instance: she told me once that she didn't feel like she knew how much or even how to ask for things that she needs in relationships, and I told her that she should ask for *everything* she needs, let the other person decide how much they can give, and assess relationships from there. And she gave me this huge, gushing "jesus, I love you" response, like I had given her a gift or something! So, y'know, I'd love to get that reaction out of her generally, but I don't want to be caretaking her or telling how healthy people are supposed to live all the time. Does that make sense?

Then again, I also hear frequently about how my supportive behaviors come across as condescending to her, or Dad-like, or she'll get defensive or say "I'm a smart, capable adult!" and so on. But she acts like the best bet for us continuing to have a relationship is to have a supportive, intimate, family-like friendship. It's a fine line to walk with her.

I'm not opposed to leading the way / being the strong one here, just to be clear... .I know that's the name of the game when it comes to relationships with pwBPD. I just see that there's a fine line for her between "supportive" and "condescending" - one that seems pretty arbitrary and mood-based to me.

In the book, there is passing mention about anxious-avoidant (sometimes called "disorganized" and other times "ambivalent" in other works on attachment styles) that they don't discuss in much detail because it's considered an atypical attachment style in a category of its own. 


The skills and lessons here are helpful for responding in a secure way.


I walk this fine line with my adolescent son (BPD traits) too. I don't know if it's different for a romantic relationship, I'm assuming so -- my T often says to avoid the trap of becoming my son's therapist. It can very easily put us in a one-down relationship instead of helping him develop the mindset of finding solutions to his own problems.

I wouldn't go quite that far with it.  :)  It's been more like phases of each one, depending on where we're at. She was definitely increasingly "anxious" as the relationship went on, and then increasingly "avoidant" once the breakup happened. I think she's generally avoidant as a means of not doing conflict in her relationships - she can't stand a whole lot of direct conflict. Then again, I just read those descriptions again and she has strong tendencies in both types, so I don't know.


I imagine it's harder as a parent; there's a certain amount of leading/supporting that is healthy in a parent/child relationship, but you don't want to go too far with it.

With her it's just difficult to pinpoint the line between her reaction being a warm, sweet "you're so smart, god I love you" versus the cold, angry, defensive "I'm an adult! You're so condescending! etc." I'm probably a bit quick to jump to giving her advice about things. That's something for me to think about. Learning her signals and responding accordingly.

I feel *really* nervous about talking to her this weekend. Why does every conversation have to feel so make-or-break?

OK, maplebob, get strong, and confident, and get happy.  :)


Think of some interesting things to talk about.  Most likely she will wind the conversation around to talking about your relationship - just listen, acknowledge, tell her you really appreciate what she is saying and want to really think about it. Don't get caught up in it - even a little - she wants to be heard.

Do it different, bob. Anticipate the direction she might take this which are dangerous and rehearse your empathy statements and escape (great CBT trick - do first and you will become). Don't try to plan anything - a future call - nothing. Don't ask her how she feels about you.  No pressure.

This is about opening the lines of communication. Letting he know it is easy and fun to take with you.

When the conversation lulls, get off.  Better to cut it 3 minutes early than 1 minute late.

This is a pep-talk, BTW, I'm not really telling to how to have a phone call.  :thought:

I'm really trying to think positive and be confident about it. I just miss her a lot, and I feel like she's slipping away, getting over me, moving on, and I'll never have a shot at her again. I know I can hang with her behaviors, as long as she's actually here.

I know you had reservations about something else going on and you can't know at this point - so best to beat yourself up with what ifs.

If she was done, this call wouldn't be happening.  But she is very discouraged and it will likely take time to recover.

I know now that nothing else is going on. She might be *seeing* someone (I don't actually think she is, though), but she's not *with* someone. And yeah, you're right, she wouldn't be talking to me if she was done done.

Why is she discouraged, do you think? I'm also VERY curious what her "shi**y few weeks" is all about.

And, to be completely honest, to hear her speak of me and her feelings and where she's at right now: I really have no idea WHY she still even talks to me. Because I insist? Because she has hope for us in the future? Fall-back plan? I really can't tell. She has forced time/space to heal, but to what end? She thinks about me anyway, and apparently frequently.

Positive and confident is the shot. That's what you're doing. You're taking off the pressure so she feels safe.

Intimacy is hard. For people who have had really dysfunctional experiences with intimacy, whether through our families of origin or adult relationships, the pain of being loved for who we are can be terrifying. Accepting that you are lovable, loved, worthy, that you matter -- if you try to believe this and get it wrong, it can feel like dying. Her fears are not inconsequential.

These validating questions (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.msg12586025#msg12586025) have been a godsend for me -- they let me show care and interest, they're easy (my favorite is, "oh?"  :)), and they lob things back without digging myself into a hole that's hard for me to climb out of (recovering fixer/rescuer/enabler).

They give her reassurance that you have boundaries -- structure is appealing for someone with BPD. Boundaries are attractive  *)

So much to agree with here! She has serious family-of-origin intimacy problems, for sure. Alcoholic mother, father who openly cheated, knew way too much of the adult goings-on of the family from an early age, got in trouble as a teenager and sent away to stay with relatives for a while, felt unsafe most of the time (and still does)... .I'm fighting against all of that programming by staying in her life and accepting her.

Validating/probing questions are my bread and butter with her! She's often vague/shallow when she's talking about things, and I can tell she's holding back, so I have to constantly lead her to get any workable information at all.

It's the boundaries that I guess I have a hard time with. Our communication boundaries are already so strict and limiting that I don't have much opportunity to HAVE to set a boundary, or to use one in practice. I guess with this talk (hopefully not the LAST talk!), I have to focus on keeping it positive and leaving on a high note and not getting into circular discussions about our relationship.

The status quo right now is "talking once a month" and I hate it. I need a validating and inviting way to ask for more/better communication while still setting a boundary. 

Validating questions ... .not sure I would categorize those as probing?

"Oh?" -- not very probing.

"Oh? Say more about how you're feeling when I tell you I love you." -- probing.

This game plan/strategy is getting you nowhere.

The most effective and inviting way to increase communication is to be enjoyable and patent and let her come to you.

The least inviting way is to talk about it and force her to defend and justify (and subsequently entrench her position).


Values (with boundaries), self respect (with humbleness), and independence (with approachability) is attractive.

Hmmm... .now THAT makes sense. Reminds me of something she said when we did the "loving" letters a few months ago: that I was confident without being full of myself, and that I was apologetic and capable of change without beating myself up about things. Guess I could try to remember being that guy.  *)

Here's another question: what do I do about this behavior?

Her: *does everything within her power to avoid "knowing" me*

Her: "I don't feel like I really know you anymore! I guess I kind of always felt that way."

Avoid intimacy! Crave intimacy!

"And she gave me this huge, gushing "jesus, I love you" response, like I had given her a gift or something! So, y'know, I'd love to get that reaction out of her generally, but I don't want to be caretaking her or telling how healthy people are supposed to live all the time. Does that make sense?"

Does this sound to any of you that this is a hook? Her way of pulling him back in?

I didn't take it that way, and that was months ago. If anything, the problem is that she's got it in her head that I "do life" better than her, or that I'm more skilled/smart/capable than her. So she wants that for herself, and she wants to learn/grow in that way, but she also has a bit of an ego about like "I don't need you to fix me up, I'm a smart, capable adult!" Which is true! I try so hard not to refute that! She alternates between being very open and accepting and appreciative of advice/help/care versus defensiveness and rage and pushing away.

I think the simple fact of the matter here is that I'm not going to "get" her back; she'll have to come back on her own. The best I can do is be ready without waiting or pressuring or really *trying*. That's hard, I'm a do-er.

Fairly positive contact today! She got in touch to let me know that she'd be busy tomorrow, and to set up a time to talk on the phone on Sunday. Joked around a little bit and agreed to have a nice, catching-up sort of conversation ("I like this plan.". Seems positive, but not exactly reconciliatory. We'll see. "Looking forward to catching up, talk to you soon."

I wouldn't set my expectation for "reconciliation" - you are heading off a "termination". Have a pleasant talk. Baby steps.

Oh I know, but a man can dream! I actually probably should have used the word "progressive". On that note: "looking forward to catching up" IS a far cry from "At this point I feel pretty strongly that we should just say goodbye soon", so... .I just have to focus on making it worth her time to reach out more often.

So, we ARE inevitably going to at least chat about SOME aspects of our relationship. I imagine that we'll at least discuss contact boundaries, even if it's just "well, I think we should continue talking once a month". How should I handle that aspect of the discussion? I would really like more consistent contact from her, so that I can continue to emphasize how chill and attractive and fun I can be.  :)

That's the next "baby step".

Setting aside the BPD traits here for a second.

And speaking to you as a woman  *)

Let her decide whether to bring this up. If the conversation is winding down, and it's not clear when or if you'll talk again, wait until she says something. Or, just toss out, "Let's stay in touch. It felt good to talk."

Leave it light.

Long-distance relationships create a weird tension because everything becomes all about the words. Let there be something between the words.

Is it fair to say you're feeling anxious, and talking about the relationship soothes that anxiety for you? For her, it seems to have the opposite effect.

That seems sensible. I've just received a lot of advice here about setting clear boundaries and leading and having things be really clear. I'm not a game-player generally, but I get that maybe there's a bit of "game" to be played here, like "leave her wanting more" and "pulling, not pushing" kind of stuff. If I had to rate her mood in our recent contact, I'd summarize it as "cautiously optimistic", so I absolutely do want to emphasize the optimistic and not push her towards cautious.


It's true. Being long distance really messed us up a lot. Well, it messed her up a lot. She's an over-thinker and clearly a fantasy thinker (in positive and negative ways), so it makes her anxious in general. (I have a lot of hard feelings about that too, actually. The plan was that I was going to move there to be with her, but she was pretty unhelpful about it for a partner, and absolutely wanted me to ride there on a white horse and make it work. She's acknowledged that to a certain degree, but I digress... .)


I am absolutely feeling anxious about this relationship, but that hasn't historically been my position when we were together. If anything, I was the: "look, everything's going to be okay, I still love you, I still want to be with you, don't worry, let's just DO this relationship and not overthink it" one. But yes, these days it does comfort me somewhat to talk about it with her. She's got me in a weird limbo with the mixed messages and opposites and vagueness of the future and the love you/hate you stuff, so talking about it at least gives me SOMETHING to go on, even if it's contradictory nonsense.

It's a really weird place to be: not-yet-actually-friends/unreconciled-partners/family/mostly-estranged.

I agree with livednlearned... .

In my opinion, any conversation to negotiate whether you two have a once a month or twice a month phone call is a loser for you. Think about it how bad that dynamic is. Please, lets talk once a week on Sunday?  No, I want once a month, but we can make it every 3.5 weeks. How about every two weeks and 2 texts a day.  All right, if you insist. You're begging and it devalues you in her mind.

You would do better to say, "Let's just talk and text when you want -  :) - we don't need to make it anymore complex than that." After the call, leave her a lone for 3-4 days (see what she does) and if you don't hear from her, then send a text with a simple question that can be answered with a long or short answer.  If she opts for a short answer, give her a short ending response (OK, thanks!) and then leave her alone until she contacts you.

I know you don't want to do this. It will take a great deal of strength. However, as long as you two are in "negotiating talk time" mode, and you are over-pursuing her, she is going to devalue you more and more. It's human nature. If you don't become a more valuable, this is going to go to the obvious end.

Some Internet relationship gurus would tell you to go no contact and make her feel the loss of you and start yearning from you. And while I would never prescribe to this silliness, there is some validity to it. Value is determined by supply and demand - there is a interesting article from a University professor on this topic on Psychology Today (I'll see if I can find it). In other words, you are better off giving her 80% of the contact she wants, not 120%. Ironically, this is what she is doing to you, and look it how it affecting you.  *)

You're thinking, "she will contact me less if I do that."  That's probably right. That's also human nature when we have been over-pursued. At some point, she will start thinking, "oh, he might be going away (value goes up) and she will check in to see if you hanging on".  It's not until she realizes, and feels, that you are not clinging on that she will start to feel some possible loss and start valuing you.

Hard message? Yes it is. It's particularly hard because you won't know what is going on or if she will ever increase the contact. It might take a week. It might take until right before the holidays. It might take into the New Year.

It is going to take something significant like this to shift the dynamic with you two.

To be clear, I'm not saying shut her out.  I' saying give her 80% of the contact she wants... .or in other words, only respond to her initiation and don't overdue it.

When you do communicate, make it about her needs (not yours).

Yes, I see your point here Skip, and I've thought about that myself, and YES it is hard and I don't want to do it. I know that I will wind up hearing from her less, that is absolutely what will happen. But that's probably necessary. I think I probably already have her at least a little bit off-guard by saying "let's just have a casual talk without any talk of intentions", so maybe that extra push of "let's not have rules anymore, just get in touch if/when you want to" will change the dynamic a bit. At the very least it's less pressuring.

It's funny, it reminds me of the one time that she tried to set up a talk with me a few months ago and I was genuinely busy and needed to reschedule. That was one of the only times I got a "what are you doing on Saturday that's so important?" kind of response from her. You know, after her saying a bunch of "I just want it to be okay to NOT talk, and for us to be cool about it" stuff... . 

(And, for the record, I'm a guy who thinks "no contact" is super dumb too, 90% of the time... .)

When people feel uncertain about committing to someone, they don't like to feel smothered or pressured or have expectations placed on them prematurely. That's true whether you're male or female.  

You also have an additional challenge because you're at stage one of the relationship, but because things are long-distance, you have only talk. And it sounds like that talk progressed very quickly to stage four (full-blown commitment, living together), only to be snapped back to stage one.

On top of that, people with BPD are a degree more impulsive and struggle with emotional regulation. So it's best to look at her actions and take your cues from them. Actions suggest you are in the very earliest stages -- she is uncertain.

Huh. So I should treat this like a brand-new relationship? That's interesting.

And you're absolutely right: things moved super quickly when we got together. I've been curious for a long time as to what factors exactly lead her to come on so strong in the first place. She's literally said "I was in love with you before we even met that first time, and then that first time cemented it".

For some reason I'm also remembering a phase during the summer where I was pressing for an in-person meeting, because she was talking a lot about how texting/phone is only, like, 30% effective in terms of quality of communication. She was resistant and I couldn't really pry out of her why exactly - I mean, she have me vague excuses, for sure - but she cracked and cried and said "I just can't stand the thought of maybe only seeing you *once*!" ?

She is likely intense by nature (most BPD relationships move quickly in the beginning), and being BPD, she will have an unstable sense of self. That is not a secure way to be in the world, and intimate relationships can tax what little sense of security she finds for herself. Not to mention, many of us brought our own intense needs for validation to the relationship and jumped right in head first.

I think her comment about the pain of only seeing you once speaks volumes about this  -- the intense fear of losing the object of her love is preventing her from having this. You can't fix this; you have to know about it.

She is moving through a lot of emotional realities that threaten her very sense of self. It's best to validate these feelings and learn how to communicate. Try to recognize when you are asking her to tend to your needs when she is completely consumed with meeting her own. That's one reason why self care is so important when we're in BPD relationships.

One of the saddest parts about this for me is that I was in a REALLY good place for me when I met her. I had been dating and enjoying fairly casual, shortish-term relationships and was happy to continue doing that while also keeping in mind that I was looking for something more, eventually. Then she came along and I just really loved her! Like, genuinely. I wasn't coming from a place of needing that much validation from her, but she sure needed it from me! So it felt intense and I probably balked a bit, even though I was really excited to be moving fast with someone that I unexpectedly had real feelings for. I think that's ultimately what triggered her anxiety (and she's said as much): she chased me really really hard, I responded from a place of fairly secure attachment style, and so she got it into her head that I wasn't as into her as she was into me. And so she started to dig for evidence of this (which anyone could find in a relationship if they're being paranoid and insecure enough) and hyper-focused on that, and ignored overwhelming evidence to the contrary that I actually DID like her. Like a lot!

Now I feel like a mess over this half the time. And there's not even that much actually going on!


I'm not sure I'm following you here. I understand the "don't expect too much from her, she has a lot on her plate" part. I can see where I've certainly not gotten that in the past. You think she's scared to lose me, but is scared of doing what it would take to keep me? That her feelings are complicated and conflicted and so she's frightened of it being too hard either way things go? Is that what you're saying? She's invested in limbo because it gives her time to come to some kind of decision: to get over it, or get back into it?

Maple Bob,

I can tell you from my limited experience that it is probably not a good idea to act as your pwBPD therapist. I know when I find myself in that role I end up feeling resentful. My pwBPD doesn't think therapy is useful for him yet a lot of time when he is talking to me I feel like telling him he should talk to a therapist about that. Of course I don't tell him that because that would cause him to dysregulate.

I  also agree that what you are facing is hard, not wanting to talk about the relationship but wanting to be supportive. I can't tell you how many times I've told my pwBPD I don't want to talk about our relationship right now. That finally stopped so I think it worked.

There is a technique in interpersonal effectiveness in DBT called broken record where if somebody is asking you for something you don't want to give them you keep repeating no over and over again. It sounds like that is what is going on in your relationship. Is that correct?

To livenlearned's point about intense fears.  I'm intensely afraid of heights.  In my head I absolutely understand that the walk way won't collapse underneath me.  You can explain to me that the walk way  over the chasm is stable.   I know you are telling me the truth.  I know engineers tested the walk way.  I am sure that walk way is well built.    And in my heart of hearts I am completely convinced the moment I step foot on that walk way it's going down.

That's how PwBPD feel about relationships.    That same intense and not terribly rational fear of if I really let someone know me either they will hurt me or leave me. 

She likely knows herself well enough to know how terrified she feels about being abandoned. This is a genuine threat to self! If she holds love at a distance, she lessens the chance that she will be devastated by abandonment. While at the same time desperately wanting to love/be loved. While being afraid. While wanting to love.

At the end of the day, you have to be secure enough to know that she is reacting to internal memories and experiences not necessarily connected to you, though likely triggered by feelings she has in relation to you, what you say, what you do. You cannot fix this for her; you can get perspective about what BPD is even when your own feelings are activated. That's why we focus on ourselves, creating a secure base from which to be supportive, practicing communication skills like validation and SET. Learning when to give ourselves a time out to recenter, having boundaries based on our values (which tend to be relatively stable).  

Empathy for BPD is an ever-deepening experience, in my experience. Not just for pwBPD, for everyone, ourselves included. I learn something new all the time. I make mistakes all the time. The more I learn, the more mistakes I make (and learn from), the more empathy I feel, the more skills I develop, the more secure I feel, the better my relationships are.

You are focused on an outcome with her (human nature!). Another option is to focus on you, to experience the relationship as something that transforms you without expecting anything from it.

Not easy, I know.

No, not exactly. I would love to talk about the relationship - IF it seemed like that was getting us anywhere. But it dysregulates her, and she has all of the conflicting feelings, and none of it makes any sense, and I love her right through those times and they basically always end up with her saying "this is too much drama, I can't handle this, I don't want to be with you but I also can't just be your friend, this is idiotic to continue with, we should just say goodbye, you should move on and be happy, etc."


Which is funny, because I've heard from her that a big plus of continuing to have some kind of a relationship with me is, in part, based on the fact that (actual quote) "You see me and hear me and you are really trying to get me and know me. You have seen the ugliest parts of me and been on the receiving end of all of my anger and meanness; the bullying and manipulating; and you’re still here. And you still love me - maybe even more than you did before. The amount of work you are willing to do here shows me how much, and it’s pretty fu**ing impressive." So yeah, I can see why she's mixed-up. I turned out to actually BE pretty awesome, so that means it was on her this whole time (to at least some extent). She's afraid that it will all fall apart again, and be her fault?

(That was in early September, by the way, so a fair bit of water under the bridge between then and now, but... .)

Ah, bingo! That makes sense. There's also the added uncertainty of "Well, what, he's going to try to move here again, for me? With all this risk and uncertainty and what I've put him through? Oh, or we'll do long distance for a while, which didn't work that well in the first place?"

I have a feeling that she also doesn't want to have to explain to her friends/family what she'd be thinking in dating me again. She's pulled out the "What would you tell someone else who was in our position? 'Cos I'd tell them that they're nuts!" card a few times.

Or, y'know, take the simplest explanation: she doesn't want to be with me anymore, but doesn't want me to stop paying attention to her sometimes. When it suits her.

Well, today's the day. Wish me luck. 

Any last-minute advice?

Have fun  :)

I'll let you all know how it goes. My game plan is to stop any negativity dead in its tracks.