Conflicting theories on being a source of support/acting as therapist

[MapleBob]

My previous threads (both locked now):

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286047.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286550.0

I have managed to avoid her "saying goodbye" to me for now, and we have a light talk scheduled for Sunday, and some check-in texting scheduled for Saturday. She says that she feels good about putting aside the drama for the moment and just getting caught up on each other's lives and such. She also mentioned that she's "had a shi**y few weeks" (no idea what that's about), so this seems like a GREAT opportunity for me to do some validating and comforting and generally move our relationship to a more positive place, at least for the moment. A few of you have given me some lovely advice about keeping things calm and being validating, but I feel like I need some more support about NOT talking about our relationship with each other, and keeping the conversation focused on support (which has worked well in the past, now that I think about it). Thoughts? I've heard some conflicting theories on essentially being a source of support/acting as therapist to your pwBPD, especially when they're pulling away and you're in limbo.

[Skip]

Good question.

There is a decent book, I Don't Have To Make Everything All Better

https://bpdfamily.com/book_review/gary_lundberg.htm

I Don't Have To Make Everything All Better is a "how-to" book for people seeking to shed the no-win role of "fixer" with a family member. This is a recommended resource when one's child has Borderline Personality Disorder. Lundberg addresses an all too common dilemma that arises when family members expect us to solve their problems for them.

The way to go is to be empathetic (use active listening skills) but not over reach and take on the role of fixer (or make the relationship the solution or a tool).

I am very fond of our friend Scot who offers this fatherly advice ... .

https://bpdfamily.org/2015/02/video-importance-of-empathy-skills-when.html



How are you empthy skills and empathy boundaries?

[MapleBob]

Oh I'm not interested in being a "fixer" - I learned that lesson years ago. It just feels ... .I don't know ... .compromised to put myself in a position where I'm being supportive of someone who outright refuses to be supportive of me in return. That might be a temporary state, but I can't count on that.

I've done a lot of work about my codependence/perfectionism/enabling/settling behaviors and thought patterns. I think I maybe haven't had enough practice post-therapy about distinguishing the line (in practice) where I'm crossing over into being more supportive of someone that I genuinely DO want to support than is healthy.

I'll check out the video!

[livednlearned]

When she pulls away, you're probably responding with your own attachment behaviors. The fixing/rescuing/enabling behaviors tell us that we feel good when we have a purpose that makes us feel worthy. This is good stuff to know.

The attachment behaviors (protesting, distancing, pursuing) helps explain what we tend to do when closeness and intimacy ebb and flow in the relationship. (Which, btw, happens in all relationships -- in BPD relationships, the ebbing and flowing is more extreme).

This is a good resource to read about attachment behavior in adult relationships.

Can you say what you mean about theories about supporting/acting like your BPD's therapist? What would that be like in practice?

[MapleBob]

When she pulls away, you're probably responding with your own attachment behaviors. The fixing/rescuing/enabling behaviors tell us that we feel good when we have a purpose that makes us feel worthy. This is good stuff to know.

The attachment behaviors (protesting, distancing, pursuing) helps explain what we tend to do when closeness and intimacy ebb and flow in the relationship. (Which, btw, happens in all relationships -- in BPD relationships, the ebbing and flowing is more extreme).

This is a good resource to read about attachment behavior in adult relationships.

Very interesting link! I've definitely read about attachment styles, but that's a particularly good synopsis. It's hard to nail down exactly what her attachment style is - I've seen avoidant AND anxious from her, but never secure. I like to think mine is fairly secure, but during our relationship it was probably bordering on avoidant, and now it's definitely anxious. We seem to have switched poles frequently during our time knowing each other.

Can you say what you mean about theories about supporting/acting like your BPD's therapist? What would that be like in practice?

Well, it's complicated. She once said straight up "I get more out of talking to you than I do with my therapist", and has reiterated that a few times to me, but she has a different, better therapist now, so I don't know if that's still true. I think that comes from the fact that I've done my core therapy work and she is just starting hers, so there's always been this dynamic of me being the more skilled/balanced/emotionally stable one, and her being the one dealing with being process-unfamiliar, and with some measure of extinction burst in starting her work. In practice, it's mainly me giving her advice or wisdom. For instance: she told me once that she didn't feel like she knew how much or even how to ask for things that she needs in relationships, and I told her that she should ask for *everything* she needs, let the other person decide how much they can give, and assess relationships from there. And she gave me this huge, gushing "jesus, I love you" response, like I had given her a gift or something! So, y'know, I'd love to get that reaction out of her generally, but I don't want to be caretaking her or telling how healthy people are supposed to live all the time. Does that make sense?

Then again, I also hear frequently about how my supportive behaviors come across as condescending to her, or Dad-like, or she'll get defensive or say "I'm a smart, capable adult!" and so on. But she acts like the best bet for us continuing to have a relationship is to have a supportive, intimate, family-like friendship. It's a fine line to walk with her.

[MapleBob]

I'm not opposed to leading the way / being the strong one here, just to be clear... .I know that's the name of the game when it comes to relationships with pwBPD. I just see that there's a fine line for her between "supportive" and "condescending" - one that seems pretty arbitrary and mood-based to me.

[livednlearned]

It's hard to nail down exactly what her attachment style is - I've seen avoidant AND anxious from her, but never secure.

In the book, there is passing mention about anxious-avoidant (sometimes called "disorganized" and other times "ambivalent" in other works on attachment styles) that they don't discuss in much detail because it's considered an atypical attachment style in a category of its own. 

I like to think mine is fairly secure, but during our relationship it was probably bordering on avoidant, and now it's definitely anxious. We seem to have switched poles frequently during our time knowing each other.

The skills and lessons here are helpful for responding in a secure way.

I also hear frequently about how my supportive behaviors come across as condescending to her, or Dad-like, or she'll get defensive or say "I'm a smart, capable adult!" and so on.

I walk this fine line with my adolescent son (BPD traits) too. I don't know if it's different for a romantic relationship, I'm assuming so -- my T often says to avoid the trap of becoming my son's therapist. It can very easily put us in a one-down relationship instead of helping him develop the mindset of finding solutions to his own problems.

[MapleBob]

In the book, there is passing mention about anxious-avoidant (sometimes called "disorganized" and other times "ambivalent" in other works on attachment styles) that they don't discuss in much detail because it's considered an atypical attachment style in a category of its own.   

I wouldn't go quite that far with it.    It's been more like phases of each one, depending on where we're at. She was definitely increasingly "anxious" as the relationship went on, and then increasingly "avoidant" once the breakup happened. I think she's generally avoidant as a means of not doing conflict in her relationships - she can't stand a whole lot of direct conflict. Then again, I just read those descriptions again and she has strong tendencies in both types, so I don't know.

I also hear frequently about how my supportive behaviors come across as condescending to her, or Dad-like, or she'll get defensive or say "I'm a smart, capable adult!" and so on.

I walk this fine line with my adolescent son (BPD traits) too. I don't know if it's different for a romantic relationship, I'm assuming so -- my T often says to avoid the trap of becoming my son's therapist. It can very easily put us in a one-down relationship instead of helping him develop the mindset of finding solutions to his own problems.

I imagine it's harder as a parent; there's a certain amount of leading/supporting that is healthy in a parent/child relationship, but you don't want to go too far with it.

With her it's just difficult to pinpoint the line between her reaction being a warm, sweet "you're so smart, god I love you" versus the cold, angry, defensive "I'm an adult! You're so condescending! etc." I'm probably a bit quick to jump to giving her advice about things. That's something for me to think about. Learning her signals and responding accordingly.

[MapleBob]

I feel *really* nervous about talking to her this weekend. Why does every conversation have to feel so make-or-break?

[Skip]

OK, maplebob, get strong, and confident, and get happy.  

She says that she feels good about putting aside the drama for the moment and just getting caught up on each other's lives and such.

Think of some interesting things to talk about.  Most likely she will wind the conversation around to talking about your relationship - just listen, acknowledge, tell her you really appreciate what she is saying and want to really think about it. Don't get caught up in it - even a little - she wants to be heard.

Do it different, bob. Anticipate the direction she might take this which are dangerous and rehearse your empathy statements and escape (great CBT trick - do first and you will become). Don't try to plan anything - a future call - nothing. Don't ask her how she feels about you.  No pressure.

This is about opening the lines of communication. Letting he know it is easy and fun to take with you.

When the conversation lulls, get off.  Better to cut it 3 minutes early than 1 minute late.

This is a pep-talk, BTW, I'm not really telling to how to have a phone call. 

[MapleBob]

OK, maplebob, get strong, and confident, and get happy. 

She says that she feels good about putting aside the drama for the moment and just getting caught up on each other's lives and such.

Thing of some interesting things to talk about.  Most likely she will wind the conversation around to talking about your relationship - just listen, acknowledge, tell her you really appreciate what she is saying and want to really think about it. Don't get caught up in it.

Do it different, bob. Anticipate the direction she might take this which are dangerous and rehearse your empathy statements and escape (great CBT trick - do first and you will become).

When the conversation lulls, get off.  Better to cut it 3 minutes early than 1 minute late.

I'm really trying to think positive and be confident about it. I just miss her a lot, and I feel like she's slipping away, getting over me, moving on, and I'll never have a shot at her again. I know I can hang with her behaviors, as long as she's actually here.

[Skip]

I know you had reservations about something else going on and you can't know at this point - so best to beat yourself up with what ifs.

If she was done, this call wouldn't be happening.  But she is very discouraged and it will likely take time to recover.

[MapleBob]

I know you had reservations about something else going on and you can't know at this point - so best to beat yourself up with what ifs.

If she was done, this call wouldn't be happening.  But she is very discouraged and it will likely take time to recover.

I know now that nothing else is going on. She might be *seeing* someone (I don't actually think she is, though), but she's not *with* someone. And yeah, you're right, she wouldn't be talking to me if she was done done.

Why is she discouraged, do you think? I'm also VERY curious what her "shi**y few weeks" is all about.

[MapleBob]

And, to be completely honest, to hear her speak of me and her feelings and where she's at right now: I really have no idea WHY she still even talks to me. Because I insist? Because she has hope for us in the future? Fall-back plan? I really can't tell. She has forced time/space to heal, but to what end? She thinks about me anyway, and apparently frequently.

[livednlearned]

I'm really trying to think positive and be confident about it. I just miss her a lot, and I feel like she's slipping away, getting over me, moving on, and I'll never have a shot at her again. I know I can hang with her behaviors, as long as she's actually here.

Positive and confident is the shot. That's what you're doing. You're taking off the pressure so she feels safe.

Intimacy is hard. For people who have had really dysfunctional experiences with intimacy, whether through our families of origin or adult relationships, the pain of being loved for who we are can be terrifying. Accepting that you are lovable, loved, worthy, that you matter -- if you try to believe this and get it wrong, it can feel like dying. Her fears are not inconsequential.

These validating questions have been a godsend for me -- they let me show care and interest, they're easy (my favorite is, "oh?"  ), and they lob things back without digging myself into a hole that's hard for me to climb out of (recovering fixer/rescuer/enabler).

They give her reassurance that you have boundaries -- structure is appealing for someone with BPD. Boundaries are attractive  

[MapleBob]

I'm really trying to think positive and be confident about it. I just miss her a lot, and I feel like she's slipping away, getting over me, moving on, and I'll never have a shot at her again. I know I can hang with her behaviors, as long as she's actually here.

Positive and confident is the shot. That's what you're doing. You're taking off the pressure so she feels safe.

Intimacy is hard. For people who have had really dysfunctional experiences with intimacy, whether through our families of origin or adult relationships, the pain of being loved for who we are can be terrifying. Accepting that you are lovable, loved, worthy, that you matter -- if you try to believe this and get it wrong, it can feel like dying. Her fears are not inconsequential.

These validating questions have been a godsend for me -- they let me show care and interest, they're easy (my favorite is, "oh?"  ), and they lob things back without digging myself into a hole that's hard for me to climb out of (recovering fixer/rescuer/enabler).

They give her reassurance that you have boundaries -- structure is appealing for someone with BPD. Boundaries are attractive  

So much to agree with here! She has serious family-of-origin intimacy problems, for sure. Alcoholic mother, father who openly cheated, knew way too much of the adult goings-on of the family from an early age, got in trouble as a teenager and sent away to stay with relatives for a while, felt unsafe most of the time (and still does)... .I'm fighting against all of that programming by staying in her life and accepting her.

Validating/probing questions are my bread and butter with her! She's often vague/shallow when she's talking about things, and I can tell she's holding back, so I have to constantly lead her to get any workable information at all.

It's the boundaries that I guess I have a hard time with. Our communication boundaries are already so strict and limiting that I don't have much opportunity to HAVE to set a boundary, or to use one in practice. I guess with this talk (hopefully not the LAST talk!), I have to focus on keeping it positive and leaving on a high note and not getting into circular discussions about our relationship.

The status quo right now is "talking once a month" and I hate it. I need a validating and inviting way to ask for more/better communication while still setting a boundary. 

[livednlearned]

Validating questions ... .not sure I would categorize those as probing?

"Oh?" -- not very probing.

"Oh? Say more about how you're feeling when I tell you I love you." -- probing.

[Skip]

The status quo right now is "talking once a month" and I hate it. I need a validating and inviting way to ask for more/better communication while still setting a boundary. 

This game plan/strategy is getting you nowhere.

The most effective and inviting way to increase communication is to be enjoyable and patent and let her come to you.

The least inviting way is to talk about it and force her to defend and justify (and subsequently entrench her position).

They give her reassurance that you have boundaries -- structure is appealing for someone with BPD. Boundaries are attractive  

Values (with boundaries), self respect (with humbleness), and independence (with approachability) is attractive.

[MapleBob]

The least inviting way is to talk about it and force her to defend and justify (and subsequently entrench her position).

They give her reassurance that you have boundaries -- structure is appealing for someone with BPD. Boundaries are attractive  

Values (with boundaries), self respect (with humbleness), and independence (with approachability) is attractive.

Hmmm... .now THAT makes sense. Reminds me of something she said when we did the "loving" letters a few months ago: that I was confident without being full of myself, and that I was apologetic and capable of change without beating myself up about things. Guess I could try to remember being that guy.  

Here's another question: what do I do about this behavior?

Her: *does everything within her power to avoid "knowing" me*

Her: "I don't feel like I really know you anymore! I guess I kind of always felt that way."

Avoid intimacy! Crave intimacy!

[Concerns]

"And she gave me this huge, gushing "jesus, I love you" response, like I had given her a gift or something! So, y'know, I'd love to get that reaction out of her generally, but I don't want to be caretaking her or telling how healthy people are supposed to live all the time. Does that make sense?"

Does this sound to any of you that this is a hook? Her way of pulling him back in?

[MapleBob]

"And she gave me this huge, gushing "jesus, I love you" response, like I had given her a gift or something! So, y'know, I'd love to get that reaction out of her generally, but I don't want to be caretaking her or telling how healthy people are supposed to live all the time. Does that make sense?"

Does this sound to any of you that this is a hook? Her way of pulling him back in?

I didn't take it that way, and that was months ago. If anything, the problem is that she's got it in her head that I "do life" better than her, or that I'm more skilled/smart/capable than her. So she wants that for herself, and she wants to learn/grow in that way, but she also has a bit of an ego about like "I don't need you to fix me up, I'm a smart, capable adult!" Which is true! I try so hard not to refute that! She alternates between being very open and accepting and appreciative of advice/help/care versus defensiveness and rage and pushing away.

[MapleBob]

I think the simple fact of the matter here is that I'm not going to "get" her back; she'll have to come back on her own. The best I can do is be ready without waiting or pressuring or really *trying*. That's hard, I'm a do-er.

[MapleBob]

Fairly positive contact today! She got in touch to let me know that she'd be busy tomorrow, and to set up a time to talk on the phone on Sunday. Joked around a little bit and agreed to have a nice, catching-up sort of conversation ("I like this plan.". Seems positive, but not exactly reconciliatory. We'll see. "Looking forward to catching up, talk to you soon."

[Skip]

Fairly positive contact today! She got in touch to let me know that she'd be busy tomorrow, and to set up a time to talk on the phone on Sunday. Joked around a little bit and agreed to have a nice, catching-up sort of conversation ("I like this plan.". Seems positive, but not exactly reconciliatory. We'll see. "Looking forward to catching up, talk to you soon."

I wouldn't set my expectation for "reconciliation" - you are heading off a "termination". Have a pleasant talk. Baby steps.

[MapleBob]

Fairly positive contact today! She got in touch to let me know that she'd be busy tomorrow, and to set up a time to talk on the phone on Sunday. Joked around a little bit and agreed to have a nice, catching-up sort of conversation ("I like this plan.". Seems positive, but not exactly reconciliatory. We'll see. "Looking forward to catching up, talk to you soon."

I wouldn't set my expectation for "reconciliation" - you are heading off a "termination". Have a pleasant talk. Baby steps.

Oh I know, but a man can dream! I actually probably should have used the word "progressive". On that note: "looking forward to catching up" IS a far cry from "At this point I feel pretty strongly that we should just say goodbye soon", so... .I just have to focus on making it worth her time to reach out more often.

[MapleBob]

So, we ARE inevitably going to at least chat about SOME aspects of our relationship. I imagine that we'll at least discuss contact boundaries, even if it's just "well, I think we should continue talking once a month". How should I handle that aspect of the discussion? I would really like more consistent contact from her, so that I can continue to emphasize how chill and attractive and fun I can be. 

That's the next "baby step".

[livednlearned]

Setting aside the BPD traits here for a second.

And speaking to you as a woman  

Let her decide whether to bring this up. If the conversation is winding down, and it's not clear when or if you'll talk again, wait until she says something. Or, just toss out, "Let's stay in touch. It felt good to talk."

Leave it light.

Long-distance relationships create a weird tension because everything becomes all about the words. Let there be something between the words.

Is it fair to say you're feeling anxious, and talking about the relationship soothes that anxiety for you? For her, it seems to have the opposite effect.

[MapleBob]

Setting aside the BPD traits here for a second.

And speaking to you as a woman  

Let her decide whether to bring this up. If the conversation is winding down, and it's not clear when or if you'll talk again, wait until she says something. Or, just toss out, "Let's stay in touch. It felt good to talk."

Leave it light.

That seems sensible. I've just received a lot of advice here about setting clear boundaries and leading and having things be really clear. I'm not a game-player generally, but I get that maybe there's a bit of "game" to be played here, like "leave her wanting more" and "pulling, not pushing" kind of stuff. If I had to rate her mood in our recent contact, I'd summarize it as "cautiously optimistic", so I absolutely do want to emphasize the optimistic and not push her towards cautious.

Long-distance relationships create a weird tension because everything becomes all about the words. Let there be something between the words.

It's true. Being long distance really messed us up a lot. Well, it messed her up a lot. She's an over-thinker and clearly a fantasy thinker (in positive and negative ways), so it makes her anxious in general. (I have a lot of hard feelings about that too, actually. The plan was that I was going to move there to be with her, but she was pretty unhelpful about it for a partner, and absolutely wanted me to ride there on a white horse and make it work. She's acknowledged that to a certain degree, but I digress... .)

Is it fair to say you're feeling anxious, and talking about the relationship soothes that anxiety for you? For her, it seems to have the opposite effect.

I am absolutely feeling anxious about this relationship, but that hasn't historically been my position when we were together. If anything, I was the: "look, everything's going to be okay, I still love you, I still want to be with you, don't worry, let's just DO this relationship and not overthink it" one. But yes, these days it does comfort me somewhat to talk about it with her. She's got me in a weird limbo with the mixed messages and opposites and vagueness of the future and the love you/hate you stuff, so talking about it at least gives me SOMETHING to go on, even if it's contradictory nonsense.

It's a really weird place to be: not-yet-actually-friends/unreconciled-partners/family/mostly-estranged.

[Skip]

I agree with livednlearned... .

In my opinion, any conversation to negotiate whether you two have a once a month or twice a month phone call is a loser for you. Think about it how bad that dynamic is. Please, lets talk once a week on Sunday?  No, I want once a month, but we can make it every 3.5 weeks. How about every two weeks and 2 texts a day.  All right, if you insist. You're begging and it devalues you in her mind.

You would do better to say, "Let's just talk and text when you want -   - we don't need to make it anymore complex than that." After the call, leave her a lone for 3-4 days (see what she does) and if you don't hear from her, then send a text with a simple question that can be answered with a long or short answer.  If she opts for a short answer, give her a short ending response (OK, thanks!) and then leave her alone until she contacts you.

I know you don't want to do this. It will take a great deal of strength. However, as long as you two are in "negotiating talk time" mode, and you are over-pursuing her, she is going to devalue you more and more. It's human nature. If you don't become a more valuable, this is going to go to the obvious end.

Some Internet relationship gurus would tell you to go no contact and make her feel the loss of you and start yearning from you. And while I would never prescribe to this silliness, there is some validity to it. Value is determined by supply and demand - there is a interesting article from a University professor on this topic on Psychology Today (I'll see if I can find it). In other words, you are better off giving her 80% of the contact she wants, not 120%. Ironically, this is what she is doing to you, and look it how it affecting you.  

You're thinking, "she will contact me less if I do that."  That's probably right. That's also human nature when we have been over-pursued. At some point, she will start thinking, "oh, he might be going away (value goes up) and she will check in to see if you hanging on".  It's not until she realizes, and feels, that you are not clinging on that she will start to feel some possible loss and start valuing you.

Hard message? Yes it is. It's particularly hard because you won't know what is going on or if she will ever increase the contact. It might take a week. It might take until right before the holidays. It might take into the New Year.

It is going to take something significant like this to shift the dynamic with you two.

To be clear, I'm not saying shut her out.  I' saying give her 80% of the contact she wants... .or in other words, only respond to her initiation and don't overdue it.

When you do communicate, make it about her needs (not yours).

[MapleBob]

You would do better to say, "Let's just talk and text when you want -   - we don't need to make it anymore complex than that." After the call, leave her a lone for 3-4 days (see what she does) and if you don't hear from her, then send a text with a simple question that can be answered with a long or short answer.  If she opts for a short answer, give her a short ending response (OK, thanks!) and then leave her alone until she contacts you.

Yes, I see your point here Skip, and I've thought about that myself, and YES it is hard and I don't want to do it. I know that I will wind up hearing from her less, that is absolutely what will happen. But that's probably necessary. I think I probably already have her at least a little bit off-guard by saying "let's just have a casual talk without any talk of intentions", so maybe that extra push of "let's not have rules anymore, just get in touch if/when you want to" will change the dynamic a bit. At the very least it's less pressuring.

It's funny, it reminds me of the one time that she tried to set up a talk with me a few months ago and I was genuinely busy and needed to reschedule. That was one of the only times I got a "what are you doing on Saturday that's so important?" kind of response from her. You know, after her saying a bunch of "I just want it to be okay to NOT talk, and for us to be cool about it" stuff... . 

(And, for the record, I'm a guy who thinks "no contact" is super dumb too, 90% of the time... .)