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I woke up to this message in 3 different places.



And on Facebook messenger


Yesterday I had asked him to not wear the wedding ring he was wearing for me until he got divorced from his wife. He totally dysregulated, hang up on me more then once then got mad when I wouldn't pick up when he called back. This was all after 9 at night. He got mad at me for not watching our show after he asked if we were going to because I have church today.

I told him I would not participate in conversations where he was critiquing me, that we were each entitled to our own feelings, and the only thing that will fix this is him getting a divorce.

I know what form flier would say, less contact.

I've read what happens when people try to go no contact when they are detaching.

I haven't decided to leave yet however I also am not going to tolerate being called abusive by the man who deceived me to get into and stay in a relationship with me.

This is the kind of thing that used to spin me out before BPD family. I came here because I was getting the run message from friends.

What am I hearing from you is that less contact will improve the relationship. That is very hard to do when he is in my face like this issuing ultimatums. I never expected less contact would mean I would have to ignore his attempts to contact me. I'm definitely at a loss here and quite confused. I don't want to be alone with his thoughts anymore which is why I am bringing them here, for a sanity check.

You are unhappy with him.

He is unhappy with you.

Both of you are expressing your individual unhappiness with each other quite frankly, openly, with no subterfuge.

So you want him to change.

He wants you to change.

Question is which one of you will take the first step and to which direction will that first step lead to.

This has been an impasse for quite some time I believe.

Neither of you is ready to let go... .neither of you fully accepts the status quo without reservation.

He knows this, you know this, we know this... .and perhaps your daughter knows this too.

OK, he is saying you are emotionally abusing him. Now what? I see a few choices... .

1. If you see anything you are doing that feels like emotional abuse, stop it, and apologize. It is worth briefly examining yourself and your actions to double-check. [NOTE: If you had described doing something that felt emotionally abusive to me, I'd say so now. Since I'm not a fly on the wall when you talk to him, I cannot confirm its absence, but I don't see anything specific]

2. If you are feeling concerned and want to work on your r/s with him, reply with something like this... .

"I try not to be emotionally abusive, and do not know where I am failing. Would you please explain to me what I am doing that is hurting you, so I can do better in the future?"

And let the conversation go from there. (This will be difficult for you to hear, regardless of the amount of truth you find in his explanation.)

3. If you are instead feeling angry, hurt, and confused, and cannot constructively talk to him about these accusations, tell him you aren't ready to talk about it now.

Oh yeah... .if you feel that he is being emotionally abusive toward you, you probably aren't going to find a conversation about how you are emotionally abusing him to be safe or productive.

Especially if his accusations of emotional abuse are part of his pattern of abuse aimed at you!

Palla, how do I change and let go?

Grey kitty, I will try your approach if he responds to me. I said


Two people at church asked me where he was and I said he's not divorced yet and one of them said she didn't know he was married.

Exactly.

What he said was emotionally abusive is I said anyone can wear a ring. He wants me to believe that wearing a ring is a big deal for him. I never asked him to wear a ring for me. What I meant when I said that is that wearing a ring doesn't mean anything to me, showing me the escrow papers will.

He has bad boundaries. To keep your mind clear of the FOG, anger, and various other things, you need very clear boundaries. Yours need to be 10X as good to help you deal with his poor ones.

I'm speaking of boundaries as the understanding of the line where he stops and you begin. I'm not speaking specifically about ENFORCING boundaries, which is where you take an action to keep him from intruding past your personal boundaries.

Him wearing a ring or not wearing a ring -- Good boundaries say that action is his.

You feeling angry/hurt/resentful when he wears that ring -- Good boundaries say that feeling is yours.

Him feeling loving and bonded toward you when he wears that ring -- Good boundaries say that feeling is his.

Either one of you sharing your feelings about that ring -- Not a boundary issue.

You telling him not to wear the ring -- You are overstepping his boundaries by trying to control his action.

You telling him you won't be around him if he's married to somebody else and wearing the ring -- You are staying within your boundaries, changing your own actions to protect yourself. [This would be an example of boundary ENFORCEMENT]

... .I don't see any emotional abuse on your part in this issue.

I *DO* see that your feelings about him wearing THAT ring have to come across as rejection and hurt him.

Please remember--you do not need to convince him that boundaries work this way. If you have good, healthy boundaries, actions to defend yourself when he tries to overstep them will be easy and natural... .well, eventually; it will take a while to get that used to them.

Don't let him pull you into a circular argument about what are good boundaries, what is emotional abuse, etc.

Thank you grey kitty, he kept talking about his ring over and over again, showing me he was wearing it, telling me he was wearing it for me, telling me "I have one of these". He would tell me how he would flash it at women who hit on him. I finally got up the nerve to ask him not to wear until he got divorced. He wasn't upset by that but by the fact I said anybody could wear a ring. What I meant is I know married men who don't, divorced men who do, women going through a divorce who do. He asked me if I wasn't wearing my ring for that reason I said it wasn't that strict , although I'm not wearing it now. I haven't heard back from him.

"anybody can wear a ring"

In other words, his choice to wear the ring isn't giving you confidence in your r/s with him.

I can see why he would be upset by that. It has to smart.

Yeah, it is kinda harsh. But not emotional abuse.

His comment about flashing it at women who flirt with him was ... .interesting, but not something that would give me that much confidence either. In fact it makes me wonder why women are flirting with him, as women most often wait for a guy to approach them in the flirting game.

Grey kitty when I said it wasn't in a flippant manner, I was thinking of real life people who wear a ring who either are divorced or going through a divorce, it's for show.

In terms of why women are hitting on him, he is handsome and charming as well as introverted and sensitive.

I suppose I could apologize to him for speaking harshly to him although I wasn't intending it as harsh, I was actually being empathetic and letting him know that the escrow papers will let me know he's serious.

Thank you so much for walking me through this.

I've had to tell three people in two days who have asked about the wedding or him that he's not divorced yet and two of them didn't know he was married.

I will feel the shame of being in a relationship with a married man because I know I didn't know he was married when I started talking to him. He hid that from me. I also didn't know his divorce hadn't been filed until I looked it up.

It's heart breaking. I haven't heard from him and I haven't contacted him.

****

Update, he just called me. If he brings up last night I will apologize for speaking harshly to him even though it wasn't intentional and if he accuses me of emotional abuse I will tell him I will not participate in a conversation where I am accused of emotional abuse.

Two women at church today asked me where he was, and one of them didn't know he was married.

I am glad these women are responding the way they are because it lets me know what he's doing is not ok.

It's too late for me to modify so I will finish by saying he called me and did not say a word about his previous text message.

I did not say anything about the two women who asked about him.

I guess we are just going to carry on.

He told me he loved me and he missed me, as usual.

That he didn't bring up issues that were bugging him earlier is not surprising. Of course he may bring them up later when he's feeling differently.

Did you enjoy the call?

Grey kitty yes and I facetimed him and he was fine. No mention of this morning's texts. Onwards and upwards?

One of my rules was never bring up anything mentioned in a previous dysregulation.

If it is forgotten, you win. Don't poke a sleeping bear!

If he remembers and is still upset, he'll ask again, and you at least had a chance to prepare yourself... .

Grey kitty, so I won this round. what do I do if he brings it up later? I think I will adopt your rule for myself. Last night I thought he hung up the FaceTime call before 9 but he said he didn't. I don't think I handled it really well last night. He kept calling attention to his ring, telling me he would get it a shim for it , and I finally said I didn't think he should wear it until he got divorced. When the FaceTime call ended I assumed he ended it and was relieved. He said he didn't end it and wanted to reconnect. I did not.

Well, the crap that comes up in one dysregulation is pretty similar to the crap that comes up in another dysregulation. Or perhaps there are a few variations that usually pop up.

For me it is a lot more important to focus on how I'm being treated and how I'm treating her, because it is very easy to get lost in the "facts" or other stated things that we end up arguing about. And when you get lost in the subject, you may not realize that it is being presented to you in an unproductive or even abusive fashion.

Keep your contact with him to enjoyable things or necessary things, avoiding as much of the negativity as you can and also limiting the things which piss you off even though they are nice/kind/affectionate in intention on his part.

I hope you find more space to spent time with your own feelings--I'm pretty sure that as long as you are kinda angry and kinda conflicted, your ability to make things go well with him are really limited.

Grey Kitty, I think you are right and today he said something that really pissed me off. We were talking about drug classes and he mentioned something that the guy who I had a short term relationship before I met him said to me about anti-depressants and inability to orgasm. That really made me angry. I told him that man was a seriously damaged person and had no boundaries. There was dead silence until I finally decided to end the call.

I didn't know when I first met him that I shouldn't tell him about my previous relationships.

I think I read something recently about people with borderline having no boundaries at all.

I told him that no man today would talk to me like that.

Then I realized a friend of mine was joking to me today about women his age needing adult diapers but that's still not the same thing as what the guy was talking about not being able to orgasm on antidepressants.

I probably spoke harshly to him but I don't really care. I was irritated that he brought that up. That guy was a jerk to me and he even admitted it so for him to bring it up made no sense.

I had to review my emotional regulation material from two years ago dealing with anger, and I found out that resentment is actually a part of disgust, not anger.

The other negative emotion I mentioned before is shame. I have this relationship that I feel I have to hide my friends because they would all say that is no good if I told them he was not divorced yet. Someone at church did say yesterday "I didn't know he was married." Two people in 3 days said that to me. I'm very angry that I kept his secret for so long.

So this is about improving the relationship.

No more visits, no more rings.

Now I just get to sit with the anger and the resentment (disgust) and the shame.

I look at the leaving board and I don't want to be over there. A lot of people are hurt, angry. I don't want to join that crowd.

I think it might help to step back, unicorn2014, and look at where you are driving the bus. With the current dynamic,  the relationship is going to crash and burn with a lot of resentment on both sides that is going to be hard, if not impossible to repair.

You are resentful about the divorce not happening (very understandable).

You are coping in an unhealthy way (and so is he). He is seeing it as abusive. I understand why he feels this way. Your creating chaos for him with no resolution (getting a divorce). To him this all feels like manipulation.  He is likely digging in harder.

I also understand why you feel the way you do. When you made those comments to the women in church you are starting to damage him in the eyes of your friends - truth or not.

This is not about facetime, or rings, or calling you sweetie... .this is about a monumental disagreement over the divorce.


Nobody is winning - blood is flowing - everyone is loosing - this is just drama. Since you are powerless over the real issue, you are finding satisfaction in these little battles.  It's human nature and its toxic.

If you think putting all this negativity into the relationship is going to motivate him to resolve, I don't think it will. If, you want to marry this man, you made your reasonable needs clear (regarding his divorce), and if you want to put pressure on, the responsible way to do that is to step away and let him work through what "is" and "is not" important.

Battling over all this small stuff is killing the relationship.

Thank you Skip, I actually had a really positive conversation with him just now. I had told him that these three women had asked about him over the past three days and I had to tell two of them he was married. He told me how it looks to them.


I also understand how I got to this place, it actually started in 2009 in a previous relationship. That man was not married but he was outside my faith and acting out with him is what put me  in a position to get into my next relationship which led to my current relationship: the end of the road for me.

I have worked through many issues with my current partner and now I am just waiting for him to get a divorce. It is an immoral situation so there is no point in talking about it with my friends, whether they are Christians or they are sober.

I've also realized the values that my dad taught me are what allowed me to get into this position in the first place. I was not raised a Christian, or with any faith at all, and when push came to shove the values I was raised with presided over the values I took on as an adult.

I now know I violated my own values in order to get into my current relationship, but I didn't know it at the time. I was filled with so much despair at the time I met my current partner that I just didn't care. Well, things have gotten a lot better since then and now I have to deal with the consequences of that.

(I should add that my current partner claims we have the same values. He calls himself a follower of Christ, reads the Bible, prays, has gone to church just this year. He actually was partially raised in the faith I converted to, and partially raised in another one. That actually was one of the big selling points for me.)

(Finally I should add I was just doing some DBT work around resentment this afternoon where I actually learned it was a part of disgust and not a part of anger, which addressees what you said about a conflict in values. I would never act like my partner if I was in his position, so I know there is a part of me that is judging him. Disgust is a very difficult emotion for me to process, its probably even more difficult then anger.)

I've made it very clear to my current partner that I am waiting for him to get a divorce. In terms of how long I'm willing to wait. I don't know. I just know right now I'm not willing to go over to the leaving board.  :) :) *)

OK. So you know you are acting out, devaluing him, and in a dysfunctional (destructive) coping mode. And you have done it before and it has crashed other relationships.

Don't drag this relationship through this roller coaster - you will have nothing at the end except as very resentful man.

Make a choice. Accept him as a married guy and give him another time line, don't accept him and tell him you will wait under he has the divorce (as long as it doesn't take to long), or explain its time to part as you can see that you are two are at an unsolvable impasse.

These little battles are not helping anyone.

No no no no. What I am saying by acting out is having sex outside of marriage. I'm not devaluing him. He accuses me of that. Just because he feels devalued doesn't mean I'm doing it. I talked about this with a past therapist years ago.

No no no no no. I'm saying I acted out (had sex outside of marriage) years before I met him which allowed me to act out with him.

Not at all.

The first man I acted out with actually called me and apologized to me for being such a jerk to me.

How is that I could misrepresent myself so strongly on this board? What you are describing is borderline behavior and I have never been diagnosed with borderline nor behaved in that manner.



I am not. I am not borderline. I have had two significant relationships in my life: my marriage, and this relationship. The acting out is a "fling" I had in between my marriage and my current relationship when I just got fed up. The other relationship I was referring to was an online relationship with a married man who didn't end up leaving his wife for me, but got divorced shortly after our relationship ended. That is what I was talking about the trajectory. It started with my sexually acting out, and when I say that I'm speaking as a Christian because any sex outside of marriage is acting out, doesn't matter if both people are single.



I'm working my butt off on radical acceptance, believe me.

I'm kind of shocked at what seems to be this older man's lack of concern for your financial future. How can he expect you to wait indefinitely for marriage if you and your daughter both face significant loss of monthly support when she turns 18?

What does Plan B look like for you and for your daughter, should he fail to keep his promises? Maybe you have already begun to prepare for that alternate future. It will be effort well invested, I believe. 

Kate cat, may I ask what you are referring to about lack of monetary support for my daughter? I am not clear on what you are thinking here. I do not depend on anyone for support. My boyfriend helps me out with expenses when he can and has said he will help me pay for her college education as well as buy a house big enough for the three of us.

. In terms of preparing for when my daughter leaves home,  I am not sure what you are referring to here either.

Can you please clarify your question so I can better answer it.

I am not depending on my boyfriend for my future at all. I am very independent and he would be the first to tell you that. At this point in my life a real marriage is going to be a real challenge.

Oh good, I'm relieved to hear that you are not facing financial insecurity for the future.  |iiii I had developed in my mind the picture of a stay-at-home single mother whose ex was not providing much in the way of child support and who was going to come to the end of receiving other social support when her daughter turned 18.

That mental image has been my own source of feeling that you could not afford to let this present relationship blind you to practicality or rob you of more precious time needed to plan and prepare for the future.

I have felt that the man was toying with you because he had nothing to lose and you had everything to lose. But it sounds as though that is not the case at all.

I'm not sure what you mean by other forms of social support.

If you're talking about my career, I've been dealing with that since I divorced. I had created and managed a home based business for my ex and was also going to college at the time to further my own career. I did experience some major setbacks when I was diagnosed with PTSD .

He's actually helping me reset my career, as now I'm going in a different direction then when I was younger .

Skip made some interesting comments yesterday.


As I told Skip, I am not acting out, devaluing, in a dysfunctional coping mode, and the only other relationship I had was my marriage which I chose to end. Nor am I dragging this relationship through a rollercoaster.

I wanted to address the accusation of devaluing as the pwBPD used to accuse me of that years ago and I talked to my therapist at the time about it. He told me that just because the pwBPD feels devalued doesn't mean that I am doing it, but it does mean that his feelings are real.

(modified to add: my pwBPD did not accuse me of devaluing him yesterday but skip accusing me of devaluing him pushed that button so I thought I would bring it up here to let people know I already dealt with that issue years ago. The last time I talked to that therapist was the last time my pwBPD was verbally abusive and I told that therapist about BPD family.)

*******

I am trying very hard not to participate in fantasizing about the future with my pwBPD. It is very difficult as my pwBPD does it all the time. Yesterday I made the mistake of telling my pwBPD that I wanted to wear the ring he gave me (as it is a very nice ring that I had picked out and it had become a part of me), but I realized after I told him that it didn't matter how nice the ring was, what it represented to me was unacceptable. I know that Skip says the ring is unimportant, but not to me. It represented something I believed in that wasn't real. I know Skip also said in a previous response "if I want to marry this guy", I don't know if I mentioned it before, but the marrying part was my pwBPD idea, not mine. Just so you know, I don't think a woman should lead the path to marriage. I did that in my first marriage and I had to end it. I won't do that again.

*******

The timeline I gave my pwBPD is that if he doesn't have it together by the time my daughter graduates from high school, we're done. That gives him 2.5 more years.

Where I am at today is not accepting him but waiting for him to get a divorce, which is what I told him I am doing.

*******

I wanted to bring up a couple more phrases the pwBPD uses that push my buttons:

"I guess I am confused"

"I guess I am missing something"

or

"I find that perplexing"

(Modified to add: I feel that these phrases actually start arguments, and I called my pwBPD to tell him that those phrases push my buttons.

as well generally question my reality. That really gets on my nerves. I find those statements to be judgmental of me, because they are letting me know that he does not approve of or agree with how I am thinking. I often tell him just because he doesn't agree with me doesn't mean I am wrong. I think these phrases lead to circular arguments, and I'm trying not to pick them up. For me, telling him they push my buttons is a precursor to not picking it up because it is letting him know how those phrases affect me.)

I realized this morning that my pwBPD really needs our experiences to match up and if they don't, he gets upset.

Yesterday afternoon we had a conversation about the fact that he thinks we were having two different experiences when we were happy. I said no we weren't, I was happy then. However I didn't tell him that now I realize that happiness was built on a lie.

In terms of damaging him in the eyes of others by telling them he's not divorced yet: I don't want to keep his secret any longer.

My pwBPD claims he doesn't feel resentment, I know the resentment is mine, and I now know that resentment is a part of disgust, not anger, according to the dbt model. There are other feelings charts that have resentment coming from hateful which comes from anger. Since I am using opposite action to try and change my emotion of resentment as it is very unpleasant, I am following the dbt model.

Unicorn, if someone accused you of being a pink elephant, or anything that you are completely certain you are not, would you consider it? Or would you think that is pretty far out and just leave it at that.

Because, you know, quite certainly, that you are not a pink elephant. You are also not a product of someone else's thoughts about you. You are you. However, what you can not control is how someone else thinks. Someone can think you are a pink elephant and you can decide that this idea is just absurd.

In Skip's case, I think he is trying to help by pointing out certain behaviors. However, IMHO, what is suggested is up to you to decide if it applies to you or not. I used the pink elephant example because it is so far fetched. Most of what people say to us are not as far fetched as that, which illustrates the idea that what someone else says to you is up to you to decide about.  If you think it may be true, then the next choice might be to consider the idea. If it isn't true, then what is the need to defend?

One of the issues several of us face in relationships is our reactivity to something our partners may say, and also to what others say. For many of us on this board- we may say something because it is something to consider. This is similar to when I worked with a sponsor. She said somethings that bothered me. My tendency was to defend them. However, if I am open to suggestion, another option is to consider them. Thank goodness for a sponsor who made me uncomfortable at times as it led me to look at myself.

There will be times where your BF will say something that bothers you. Your choice is to react, defend, consider, or let it go. If 2.5 years is your time limit, then how will those 2.5 years be for you? The choice to be reactive or not is up to you. Your BF could get up one day and call you all kinds of things, but if they are not true, then his thinking doesn't make it true.

And if anyone else on this board says something to you, consider the "pink elephant" idea. If there is some truth in it, then it may be something to consider. If it isn't - and it is as false as calling you a pink elephant- which you are certain you are not, then you also have the choice to defend it or not. However, something that isn't true doesn't need to be defended.

IMHO, you have 2.5 years- do you wish for them to be spent thinking and analyzing each conversation? Or using that time for something else while keeping an eye on the relationship over time.

To all who are posting on Unicorn's threads -- I could of course be wrong, but it feels to me like she is manifesting pretty deep pain and hurt and damage to her feelings about the r/ship due to the extreme deception her BPD guy employed to get her into the r/ship and ever since, including possibly ongoing deception about his efforts or lack thereof to pursue the divorce. (Unicorn, apologies if this does not ring true to you--I know you are trying to start threads about more limited topics that feel more manageable--but so much of what surfaces in each thread for you seems to trace back to this fundamental anger and/or resentment about the core deception issues).

I feel like it might be helpful for the discussion to center on what to do about the deception issue. The other issues seem like sort of red herrings. And focusing on them when Unicorn continually speaks up about her fundamental hurt feels like enabling someone continuing to be hurt.

Can a r/ship truly survive and come back from this degree of deception? I don't pretend to know the answer, but it seems to me like that is actually the central issue.

         Unicorn2014, Wanted to offer my perspective on the "entirety" of your posts so far.  As to devaluing.  My answer is that I'm not sure, I would have to think about this for a while.  As to acting out, absolutely there is a lot of acting out that I see (from you).  Many times when you post about things that you "tell" him,  the visual that I would like to attach to that is "tossing gas" at someone.  Perhaps the next thing you "tell" them is the match that goes with it.  It seems to me that as the conversation heats up that your Significant Other feels the heat, he wisely hangs up.  :)ue to the high amount of contact/reaching out that you both seem to do, this pattern repeats itself a lot, some days it seems like several times in a day.  This pattern is something you can control and decide to change   No permission needed from your SO.  Dragging the r/s through the rollercoaster.  I can see the visual and I believe you are in control of this.  From you stories it seems that your SO is a willing participant in this as well (most of the time).    Still, this is something you can change, regardless of if your SO wants it or agrees.  Very likely that patientandclear has boiled this down for you.  Also very likely that you may not be able to answer the question right now of if the r/s can survive this.    Eventually that question will have to be answered  Note, I've stopped counting how many timelines you have given your SO.  :)oubtful that giving him another timeline is going to change things (it hasn't worked in the past).  Long term timelines are generally problematic anyway for complex situations.  2.5 years is a long time for you to be in limbo.  Also, timelines provide a challenge to many pwBPD.  Very likely a pwBPD will get 95% done in 2.5 years and then "see" what you will do about it.    Focus on what you can control, build from there.          

FF

I think it is very understandable to feel hurt from deception.

I guess my post was also a "bigger picture" post. Many things will be said in conversations and from others. We can consider what things ring true for us, and what things do not. Otherwise our feelings would be constantly shifting moment to moment.

If the hurt from the betrayal is the bigger, most underlying issue, then it will be felt in other interactions.

A timeline would be for you. You can communicate it to your SO, but it is your timeline of how long you can wait. If he doesn't meet it, then it is your decision what to do.

Patient and clear hit the nail on the head. I am not acting out. I am not leading the amount of contact. I am not devaluing. That is a hot button issue for me.

****

I had to tell another person today that my boyfriend isn't divorced yet, a man, who said he didn't know that was the situation. He had asked when my boyfriend was coming to see me again.

*****

Patient and clear is asking the fundamental question .

I will respond to not Wendy and form flier when I get on my laptop.

Not Wendy patient and cleAr, a lawyer, is correct, and I told my boyfriend that this morning before reading her post. I am struggling with what is going on in the relationship itself. I say my boyfriend has until my daughter graduates to get it together.

Formflier briefly I have not given my boyfriend multiple timelines , you are getting us confused. He is the one who has given me multiple timelines and I have posted about that. It got so bad I had to talk to one of my former therapists about that and he had to talk to my boyfriend.

****

I have always stated he had until my daughter graduated from high school. I had not wanted to break up with him before he moved it that's before I found out the divorce wasn't in the system.

         Perhaps, unicorn2014 could define what "acting out" means to her.  For me, when I read as post there her SO is "told" something by unicorn, that continues or escalates conflict and drama, I would consider that "acting out".  Especially when I try to consider if anything good can come of the "telling" of those things, and come up empty.          

FF    

         If this is the case, great!  First I have heard (read) of it.  I'll sum up my timeline comment to be that I've heard lots of timelines in unicorns posts (I guess debatable whose timelines they are) and I'm not aware of any timelines that have been "met".  To me they seem to shift or be hard to nail down.  A 2.5 year timeline, to me, seems like, .well I don't know how to describe it.  It seems to be too far away to have meaning.  I think the more important issue is what unicorn is going to do to take control of her r/s TODAY, tomorrow and in the upcoming weeks.          

FF

Formflier I used acting out when I was talking about a short term relationship I had in 2009. It was acting out because I'm a Christian. It had nothing to do with my boyfriend. Skip picked that up and turned it into something else. Yesterday my boyfriend brought up that relationship and it triggered me. I said if I had not acted out, meaning had a sexual relationship outside of marriage in 2009, then I wouldn't have allowed my boyfriend into my life in 2012. Does that make sense? This is about my values.

         Ah, I see.  You are defining acting out as sexual r/s outside of your marriage.  To be clear, I'm not suggesting you are doing that now.  I don't remember if you have discussed the amount/kind of sexual contact that you and your boyfriend (I'm assuming this is your new term for him) have had.  I do think that we should create a term for when you "tell" your boyfriend things that are not helpful for the r/s.  (even though you may feel that way)  How are you doing on taking the space you need in the r/s?          

FF

Formflier, again the timelines I have been talking about have been his, not mine, in fact it was a timeline issue that brought me to this site in the first place. His moving timeline has been a frequent complaint of mine, I dealt with it in therapy, my therapist talked to him about it. I'm not the one with the moving timeline. Remember I only just found out in September his divorced had been filed. I was under the impression since July 2012 that he had filed for divorce.

-----

The acting out was a relationship I had 5 years after

I divorced which I believed paved the road to the place I am now with my boyfriend/significant other/partner/"fiancé". Acting out in a marriage is called cheating and I never did that and that's why I find my boyfriend's actions with me so reprehensible . I was very unhappy in my marriage so I divorced long before I even allowed another man to set foot in my home.

  I was under the impression that you have posted about giving your boyfriend until such and such date to show papers and things like that.  Early on it seems like there was a bit countdown until the day you had told him to show you papers by.  If my memory serves me correct, a big story came out that he had told his lawyer to do something and it was the lawyers fault there was no divorce.  So the day came and went without you seeing "proof".  That was the kind of "timeline" I was talking about.  Where you decided if something doesn't happen by such and such date, then (something).    Do you remember something like that?          

FF

Formflier in terms of taking time, my partner told me he would contact me at 5, so I'm not going to talk to him until then. He said he was doing that because he couldn't get a hold of me and I didn't like how he was talking to me. His phone got temporarily turned off due to fraud and I'm talking advantage of that. He's sent me Facebook messages I haven't read and maybe texts too.

*******

In terms of the timeline for showing me he filed, I asked him in June, he refused, so I looked it up in September and found out he had not. Then I told him he could not come see me until he filed.

*******

Formflier, it is funny, my pwBPD often accused me of "throwing grenades", he used to call that a temperament trait. He puts a lot of value in temperament. He said others of my same temperament would do the same thing. He of course , did not accuse himself of that same behavior. In my adopted spiritual tradition, you accuse yourself, not others.

****

I will think on what you and skip are saying about devaluing and throwing grenades. I think it's interesting you are both accusing me of the same things the pwBPD has in the past.

         I really don't like the word "accuse".  It seems harsh.  To be clear, I'm not accusing you of anything.  I like to use "visuals".  If the "tossing gas" visual doesn't work for you, the throwing grenades visual works just fine for me.  I will put it this way.  From reading your posts, I have observed that you like to lob a lot of hand grenades towards your boyfriend.  I'm glad that you are going to think on this.    What would your life look like if you spent less time lobbing hand grenades and more time constructively discussing solutions?          

FF   

         I'm not seeing you "take" time that you need.  I'm seeing you enjoy "time off" that his is giving you and informing you of.  Taking time would (to me) look like this.  He says he will call you at 5.  You let him know you have planned to meditate (or spend time with daughter), the activity doesn't matter.  Perhaps you don't even tell him what you will do.  Anyway, you tell him that you will not be available until the next day at 5 and hope he will be available then.           

FF

Formflier that's just it, I don't agree that  I throw grenades.

In terms of taking time off, I will think on this. Thank you for reminding me.

This is the text I was referring to earlier
Then I got one at 11:50 where he says he missed getting my pics. His use of past tense pushes my buttons. Then I got one at 12:03pm where he said


Keep in mind what he said at 8:24am
Who is the one throwing grenades? Who is the one acting out?

         I don't see anyone throwing grenades or acting out in this exchange.  If he contacts you at 5 I recommend you let it go to voicemail (or whatever is appropriate) and take the space you need to think about the grenade throwing.  Note:  I see where he says it appears you are ignoring him.  Comments like that are best to be left alone or "ignored".           

FF

         If I have time, I will try to look back and find some examples.  They are there.  You are not a bad person because you throw them.  I've done it, and most likely will do it in the future.  But I realize that when I do that, it may feel satisfying to me, but there is a cost to the r/s.    I'm not all all suggesting that unicorn2014 becomes some sterile, "perfect" r/s partner that never negatively expresses herself.    I am suggesting that you getting an accurate view of how YOU participate in the r/s that you are in will give you a better chance to change the r/s dynamic.          

FF

FF how is ignoring his facetime audio call at 5 not acting out? He is now claiming that he didn't exactly say that he wouldn't contact me until 5. I don't mind him calling me at 5. What I didn't like was being told to wait for his call at 5, because that's how it came across to me.

I agree to FT him at 5 earlier so I was not expecting him to text bomb me or tell me things like he "missed seeing my pics".

I think patient and clear hit the nail on the head.

Can I stay in this relationship with this amount of anger and resentment?

I do not know.

I heard somebody say something about if they wanted their job, that is what they were going to have put up with.

Well, if I want this relationship, this is what I'm going to have put up with. I get that now.

*******

I don't want to think about  throwing grenades. My boyfriend would say that about people in his office with a feeling temperament, he has a thinking temperament. I don't need to pick that up just because he says that.

Today I had to tell a third person that he was not divorced yet, and this person was neither a Christian nor sober and he said "Oh I didn't know that was the situation." I am beginning to realize it doesn't matter if your Christian or your sober, the situation is wrong, there are certain norms in society. My partner knows how our relationship looks to others. I am glad he does. I'm the one out there in the world dealing with that because I am the one that introduced him to everybody in my life. Each time a new person asks me where is my boyfriend and I have to tell them he hasn't gotten divorced yet it brings up a new resentment. In this case I told this person I wouldn't let my boyfriend come see me until he got a divorce. In terms of the word boyfriend, no, that's not the word  I would choose, but its common nomenclature, so I'll use it.

FF I agree with patient and clear that is going to be very difficult to bring this relationship back from the anger and hurt and resentment I feel.

I don't know if I can forgive my boyfriend and that is what I'm going to have to do if I'm going to want to move on.

The way he talks to me today is still a problem.

If I try to talk to him about how his speech is affecting me he'll dismiss it by saying I'm giving him a protocol lecture.

Yet in the past he got to claim I was devaluing him.

That's why when Skip brought that up it pushed my button because that upset me so much when my partner was labeling my behavior as such that I had to talk to my therapist about it.

My partner is very smart.

He bought and read SWOE and applied it to me.

This morning he asked me in a very harsh tone if I was dysregulated. I realized how painful that was and I apologized to him for asking him that and told him I would never ask him that again.

Grey Kitty has said I've spoken harshly to my partner in the past. I'll admit and accept that.

  Choosing not to answer a phone call is in no way "acting out" or throwing a grenade.  If the purpose of the non answer is to cause pain, then it could be labeled as passive aggressive (possibly) but if the purpose is to do things you need to do, it's jut doing what you need to do.  You have no obligation to talk to your boyfriend, nor he to you.    I understand you don't want to think about throwing grenades.  If you don't think about it, the behavior will likely continue.  Last:  There seems to be a new "vibe" in your threads of "having to" tell people all the details about him not being divorced.  I've asked the question before and haven't gotten an answer.    Why on earth is this anyone else business? Why tell anyone else about this?          

FF  

         If you can equate speaking harshly, to throwing grenades, my guess is we are talking about same stuff.   Listen, you are way, way, wrapped up in all of this.  You need space  One benefit of less talking to your boyfriend is less "problems" to think about and deal with.    Take space and let some healing take place.          

FF

Formflier, I want on my Facebook and this is what I found.

1:33pm
1:45pm
1:57pm
I called him on facetime audio twice and he did not answer.

I did not respond to the texts.

*******

In terms of "having to tell people all the details" not at all. People ask, I tell them a short and simple reply, he is not divorced yet, he can't come see me. No further explanation needed. I brought my boyfriend around to everyone I know so naturally people want to know when's the wedding, is he coming, when's he coming to see me again.

I think it is good for me to hear people's responses because that lets me know the proper response to someone who's not divorced yet who's having a relationship with another woman.

*******

Formflier, I know you think I need space and I'm trying to take it. I just showed you an example of  what happened when I tried reduce the contact for one day because of something he told me, today, and how my boyfriend treats me as a result.

         This is not taking space.  As for people asking.  Just tell them a date hasn't bee set yet.  No other details needed.  What is going to happen if he gets divorced, you guys get married, and then lots of people that you bump into are asking you details about your relationship and why you chose to marry a guy that started a r/s with you when he was married.    You are creating drama that will follow you around and cause problems in the future.  Yes yes, I know you didn't know about the marriage when you started the r/s, no need to go there.   Your choice to spread private details of your r/s to others will come back to haunt you.  It is your choice (an nobody elses) to spread it.          

FF

Formflier those aren't private details of our relationship those are the results of him trying to keep his marriage private and then his divorce private. I'm trying to own the fact that I allowed the relationship to continue after I found out he was married. That's why I traced it back to my post divorce, pre engagement relationship in 2009. I don't care if people wonder why I got into a relationship with a married man in the first place, I'm wondering that myself. Why did my partner see fit to target me?

******

I don't own those details of my relationship at all. Those are the details of the relationship that my partner tried to have with me that I finally rejected in September .

*******

As to why I called him? I was tired of him texting me and telling me I was ignoring him. Apparently he didn't hear me when I said we could FaceTime at 5.

         Very likely he did hear you, but wanted to see if he could get a reaction out of you before then.   It worked.  If you are tired of him texting you, take your eyes somewhere else.  That is something you control    Instead, trying to call him and get him to stop, is something you don't control and there is very little history of that ever working.  Spend your energy on things that work.          

FF

         I'll respect a difference of opinion on what is and isn't private.  When all this information (private or not) boomerangs back at some point in the future, please realize (then and now) that this is your choice, something you control to share all this information.          

FF  

FF it's possible the call may have ended without me hearing it.

At any rate I hear what you are saying.

I don't like how he talks to me.

I think I've shown some good examples of his speech over the last two days.

So you are saying to ignore him when I don't like how he's talking to me?

Formflier I don't want to be in a relationship that I have to keep private. I want to be in a straight ahead, above board and out in the open relationship.

My first marriage was difficult but at least during the marriage itself it was all those things. I miss that cleanness although I do not miss the marriage itself or my ex at all.

My ex husband was also sneaky with me before the marriage.

I just want a normal, straight ahead, above board, out in the open, relationship. I don't want secrets, privacy, discretion.

*******

Also all this information is the simple fact that he hasn't filed his divorce yet. I refuse to keep that a secret. One thing my dad has always said about me is that I am honest  and one thing I was taught to value by my mother is honesty. I have no shame in stating the truth. I want to own what happens to me when I tell the truth. I don't want to be in a relationship where I have to keep the reason why my partner is not here a secret.

*****

That brings up something grey kitty and I were talking about the other day, my partner's tendency to fantasize. Last night he told me before he hung up the FaceTime call that he was sorry he wasn't there. He wants to file his divorce so he can leave where he is because he doesn't like it there. He claims that's because he wants to be with me, however he told me before he met me he was looking at relocating to a different country, with no plan to divorce, and no plan to bring his wife.

******

When he told me last night he wished he were here I felt mad at him.

******

It takes a lot of energy to resist his fantasy and sometimes I don't have it in me to constantly be having to figure out how his words make me feel.

         Take a deep breath.  What are the chances that the relationship that you have with your SO can fit what you want?  You know what you want.  Your statements are clear and declarative.    They make sense to me.    What doesn't make sense to me is if you are clear about what you want, why you are choosing a relationship that doesn't have what you want in it?    Not looking for an explanation of deception or what you didn't know and when you didn't know it.  In the present (right now) you are clear about what you want.  And I will say that it has been clear to me that you have wanted things like this for a while (even though you haven't stated it as clearly as you have in this post).  It's also clear the type of r/s your boyfriend is offering and has been offering.  That seems stable (he is not changing).    There is a grand canyon between what you want and what he is offering.    So, what is unicorn2014 going to do about the grand canyon?          

FF      

Thank you form flier, I think this will address patient and clear's concern that we deal with the deception.

That is why I am telling the truth to the people I know, to see if I can stand the shame I feel. I do not want to keep the truth about my relationship private anymore. I don't want to suffer with it alone anymore. I don't care what the consequences of telling the truth are.

*****


In terms of your question, if I can stand my ground and tell my truth about my relationship my fiancé/boyfriend is not divorced yet and deal with the ramifications of that, then I can stay in the Grand Canyon a little longer.

*****

I should also add that I'm actually trying to practice opposite action around my shame. Keeping my boyfriend's being married  a secret will not cure me of my shame. Making a simple factual statement about the reason for his absence is due to his lack of getting a divorce is actually very important for my emotional health.

The ironic thing is my boyfriend claims he shares my values and he claims he never wanted to be in this position .

         How does that get you to the relationship you want?  How does staying in the grand canyon help that?           

FF

Form flyer it keeps me who I want to be : somebody who tells the truth and it allows me to stay where I'm at: in a relationship that is very difficult . This is the staying board and this is about staying in the relationship. I can't improve it. My boyfriend has to do that by divorcing and relocating . I have to be able to tell the truth in order to stay in the relationship. The truth is my boyfriend is not divorced yet, and all that implies, which I don't spell out.

         There is a disconnect here.  I'm not advising you at all to leave.  I am advising you that choosing a relationship that you don't want is not a prescription to be a successful stayer.  Being a good stayer is not about pretending to want something that you don't, I'm not advising this either.  So, again, why are you choosing a relationship that is nowhere close to the relationship that you have described that you want?  There needs to be an clear understanding on why you want to stay, before we can help you be a successful stayer.          

FF  

Hi Unicorn (and my fellow posters), also taking kind of the big picture to your recent posts in their totality. As someone who has read regularly, but only posted here and there, I've been torn between trying to contribute something supportive and helpful, but also be honest about how some of the interactions you describe with your BF come across to me.

I'll admit that for me, and speaking only for myself, there's a "head scratching" quality to the twists and turns of these posts. But, it also seems like we are all at risk of falling into a JADE cycle with our replies, with emphasis on the "E" of explaining, or overexplaining.

Several times I let my mind wander and speculate, what if your BF actually complied with all of your requests (EXCEPT the big one, get divorced). All the behavioral things, don't talk about the future, don't talk about the past, don't use certain pet names, don't wear a ring... .and so on.  And if I'm remembering the details wrong, I apologize, but hopefully you get the idea. I wondered how you would feel if he just stopped doing each thing you asked him to stop doing, immediately, when you asked him to stop. I wondered how you would feel, what effect would that have on your conversations, etc? Would you keep adding to the list of things you wanted him to stop/change? Or would you feel satisfied.

So then you would have a relationship where he never called you cupcake or sweetie, he never talked about his hopes for a future with you, he never talked about his fond memories of when you two were happy together, he took off his ring, he only called you when you wanted him to, etc.  How would that feel for you?

I'm not sure I'm helping here, but hopefully without JADEing, what do you think?

Chump

Form flier I stay because of what he promised me.

Chump, I would feel satisfied as that would shine the spotlight on what really needs to change: his marital status and his location . It's easy to argue about the small stuff, it distracts from the big stuff.

He's assumed a familiarity with me he shouldn't have before he divorced and relocated.

         So, why get distracted from the big stuff?  You only have so much energy, spend it where it matters.          

FF

         Which is ?(looking for one or two sentences)          

FF

Form flier the big stuff is the divorce and relocation . The promises are remarriage in my faith, a house big enough for the three of us, a pet (they're not allowed in my apartment) support so I can focus on my painting, a garden, travel, help with my daughter. We even talked about having a child.

This sounds like a fantasy lifestyle that you want him to provide for you. Let me ask you to strip that away and think about the relationship.

Imagine this scenario -- he gets divorced and moves out to be with you. The divorce guts him financially, and his resources are destroyed. You're able to get married to him, but there is no house, no pet, no support for your artist lifestyle, no garden, no travel. You get him. What do you envision when you see this scenario? Does it make you happy?

Flour dust he promised those things. That's not my wish list. I'm not responsible for the things he said to me. Artist lifestyle? He makes his living as a musician, so there is no artists lifestyle. That was  his way of life before he met me, hence the attraction in the first place. He wants to create that way of life here for me in my area and he got me to believe in him and I haven't given up yet. I'm talking about developing a profession as an artist, something I started as a teen and then gave up on. He wants to restore me to the path I was on and see me use my talent. I'm not talking about a lifestyle.

----

This whole thread started because I was thinking about something skip said to me about devaluing my boyfriend and it reminded me of when my boyfriend used to say the same thing and I had to talk to my therapist about it. That's a hot button issue for me.

         This is your choice.  You have chosen to be in a relationship that is not like the relationship you want, because your SO has promised you the above items, and we have the results of three years of effort by your SO towards the above promises.    There is a big disconnect here, honestly, I can't in good conscience say that any amount of reading lessons, taking space, hanging up or not hanging up, being called sweetie or not is going to solve the disconnect.          

FF

         All of these hot buttons are distracting from this MASSIVE ELEPHANT in the room.           

FF

FF actually my partner has started me out on my painting career, I have been painting for 2 years because of him. He provided the supplies and he paid for the classes.

Another thing he's done for me is support my fitness goals by buying me running shoes, running bras, running socks, a fitness tracker.

He has done a lot to support my goals.

He paid for me to take parenting apart classes so I could learn how to deal with my ex.

I am being patient with him because I believe in what he promised me and even when I meet new men they don't hold the same appeal.

I'm trying really hard to get to the acceptance that skip was talking about. For me telling the truth about my boyfriends absence is part of the journey to that acceptance.

I will see if I can pull skips quote about my three choices from my previous thread and post it here.

But just a few messages ago, Formflier asked why you stay in the relationship, and you responded "Form flier I stay because of what he promised me." And then proceeded to list all those things. Are you being honest with yourself? In the space of just a few messages, you said you are staying because you want what he promised you, then flipped it and said it's not your wish list. You can't have it both ways.

Flour dust, I didn't tell him what I wanted, he had those things where he lived and he said he would bring those things to me.

I was living a life of deprivation when I met him and I had just accepted that's how things were going to be. He changed all that for me.

He is a good life partner for me if he can divorce and relocate and that is what I am waiting for. If he can't do that by the time my daughter graduates from high school then I will make other plans .

Of course I am being honest with myself. Do I seem like the kind of person who wouldn't be?

---

Not Wendy had a good point about not defending myself if things didn't apply . I think what my partner considered me devaluing him might have been me stating my values, which I learned are boundaries on BPD family. When people suggest I'm devaluing , or throwing grenades, or not being honest with myself, it's hard not to get defensive .

         What I don't understand is why choose to be in a relationship with an unavailable guy that has made no progress in three years to satisfy your big IF.  Especially when that guy provides (right now) the type of r/s that you have said you don't want.  So, in 2.5 years, if he is not divorced, you will have put 5.5 years into a r/s that is not what you want, while waiting for it come become what you want.  I just can't wrap my head around it.          

FF    

For flyer by stating the truth about my relationship I'm turning it into the kind of relationship I want it to be. He is available for everything but marriage , as others have pointed out.

---

The behavior you find reprehensible , telling the truth about why my boyfriend isn't here, is actually healing me. It is allowing me to own my choices and feel comfortable in my skin. I think most people I've told didn't think I was the kind of girl to get in that kind of relationship or that he was that kind of man. Some people understand his marriage is just a formality.

---------

The reason I said when my daughter graduates is that when I will be switching gears. Finding a new life partner is not high on my priority list right now.

I don't know you OR your partner. I don't want to judge you. All we can see here is how you present yourself through messages, and how you describe your partner.

What I've seen from reading your messages over the past few months is a person on a very difficult journey toward reconciling herself with some uncomfortable and unpleasant truths about her relationship. I suspect that journey is not over, as many of the responses you receive are describing what seem to be truths that you're not yet willing to accept. It can take time -- a lot of time -- to process all of this and the related feelings of shame, fear, distrust, anger, and loss.

Let me try to ask my question another way. I'm not trying to attack you, and you don't need to defend or re-explain your position to me. You don't need to convince ME of anything, because your life choices won't affect me. I just ask that you think about this a bit, if it's not too uncomfortable to do so.


Here's my question: is he still a good life partner for you if he DOESN'T brings those things to you? If he just brings himself, personality problems and all, but none of the financial support that would change the other aspects of your life?

Flour dust, I am very sorry I have somehow misrepresented myself on this board. I don't know how to change that.

Nowhere did I say I was in this relationship for financial support. That is not why I was attracted to him, I had no idea he would help me financially.

You missed the important piece of the puzzle. I believe you called it an "artistic lifestyle."

I was drawn to my partner because of what he does for a living, not because of the money he makes.

My problem is I was  disillusioned from my own divorce years ago when I met him, which is how I was able to not to reject him when I found out he was married. However when I found out his divorce wasn't filed, that's when I had a problem.

I think what is happening on the board is a lot of people's filters are coming into play, for example when katecat had a vision of me being an ex housewife who had no means of supporting herself out in the world, or your vision of me being financially dependent on my partner.

I think notwendy really hit the nail on the head of this topic which is don't listen if it doesn't apply (being accused of devaluing). That's what this topic was about, and it wasn't even about my partner, it was about Skip saying I was engaging in a borderline behavior.

Realizing that someone wasn't doing what they said they were doing and having your feelings change about them is not devaluing them, it is realizing they are not as valuable to you as they made themselves out to be.

*****

I should add that since my partner has had to solely support himself on his music now instead of also his business, he is not currently giving me any financial support at all and I am still with him. I am self supporting. Perhaps I had not made that clear. My budget is tight but I make it work.

  You didn't answer flourdusts question.  I don't see flourdust asking for an explanation of how and why you were attracted to him (the past).     The divorce goes through, he shows up with nothing left and wants to rebuild a life with you.  You reaction to that is?  (I think that is a summation of the question)          

FF

Formflier, see what I just modified: since my partner no longer has his business and is currently supporting himself on his music, he is not financially  supporting me at all and I am still with him. I am self supporting. I didn't have a budget in November which is why I had problems. I drew one up for December, and will have one going forward. Remember, I created and managed a home based business for my ex husband. I taught myself accounting and bookkeeping and ran the business for 3 years before I got sick of the way my ex husband did things and closed the business. My current  budget is tight but I make ends meet. I am not with my partner for financial support. Can we all come to an understanding on that so that we can move forward?

-----

I started this topic because Skip described me as engaging in a borderline behavior, devaluing, that my partner used to describe me as in engaging in. If he's said that recently its fallen on deaf ears because I know I don't do that, but when the site director of BPD family says it, well, that gets my attention.

----

I am with my partner because I enjoy his companionship, despite all the nonsense and drama and problems.

----

My partner helped me rebuild my life after years of not getting child support wiped me out as I was solely supporting my daughter. That has also changed through my patience with the legal process. All the things my partner provided me were things i had that worn out that needed replacing that i couldn't replace.

-----

I find flour dust's question offensive. I have been independent since I was 18, my life has been hard. My partner would be the first to tell you that. He's actually had to ask me many times if I want his help. He really had to earn my trust in order for me to accept his help. That's what makes me so upset when I see I have misrepresented myself so badly on this board. Its actually embarrassing. My partner could raise the quality of my life, but I don't need him, and he would be the first to tell you that. I think he might have wanted me to need him in the past, but I changed all that, if that's the case.

-----

I think if the board is going to be able to help me moving forward I have to change two perceptions about myself: one, that I don't engage in borderline behavior and two, that I am not with my partner for financial support. If people have the wrong perception about me they're not going to be able to give me the right advice.

Pretty sure that wasn't what Skip said, but I'll leave it to him to clarify if he chooses to.

No he didn't but I know that idealization and devaluation is a borderline behavior. He didn't say "unicorn you are engaging in a borderline behavior". I get sensitive when people say I'm acting in a borderline manner. Then i start thinking about what others have said about me being enmeshed with my partner and then I feel like now I'm starting to get blamed for his disorder.

----

Did it ever occur to people that if someone idealizes you that it might be a defense mechanism to "devalue" them, before the horrible "devaluing" or "painting black" occurs. Remember my partner had a dysregulation so bad months ago that he called his therapist and I thought about calling the police. That hasn't happened since.

  So, to be clear here, you are or are not staying with him because he is going to get you a home in the future and do other things that will take resources for him to do.  Earlier in this thread you said this  
         Now it seems you are saying that you are not with him because of promises of support.    What I need help understanding is how your view of your reasons for staying in the relationship change so much in just over 12 hours.    There are a lot of people that are interested in helping you.  This includes me.  I think you are starting to see that there is a better way  I am having a hard time keeping up with you and I believe others are as well when what you define as "the problem" and what you want changes so much and in such a short period of time.  Can you fill us in on what changed from yesterday evening until now that has changed your view on the r/s?  Many people want to help you, but I believe we are being ineffective because there is a disconnect.  I'm trying to figure out what that is.        

FF

Formflier I answered your question as to why did I want to marry him, that is different from why am I with him today. I am with him today because I enjoy his companionship, he is not financially supporting me at all today. He did help me in the past because I so thoroughly depleted my own resources to support my daughter because her father was not. That changed.

In terms of why I want to marry him? Sure, I like his vision of married life, however I would not give up my independence until he was able to provide what he said he would.

If he's able to deliver what he said, then my second marriage would be far more enjoyable then my first.

Furthermore I actually like his personality, I've been with other creative men but they were too soft for me. I like my partner's edge, and now that he's on the right dose of his medication, he doesn't dysregulate anymore.

One of the things I need help with today is knowing what to ignore and what to pay attention to.

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Modified to add I think asking why I want to be with him is a good question as it is in line with the lessons and I've asked myself that many times. Remember there are two questions: why am I with him today, and why do I want to marry him, hence the reason for the two answers. I did not know that I had misrepresented myself so badly and that's why people were responding to me the way they were.

         This is what people (and me) are picking up on.  Your enjoyment is based on what he can deliver.  If you look at your life from a boundaries point of view, letting someone else determine your enjoyment or sadness, or other emotions, is not a good way to work through things.          

FF

         Perhaps misrepresentation and constant shifting of topics or "the problem" are related.     Let's be clear.  Below is your response to why you stay.  You can look above to your response as to why you are with him today.  It's the same question.  Why are you with him now?  The answers are dramatically different.    What happened since yesterday to change your answer?  
       

Form flier I know this topic is going to close soon so when it does I will start a new one as to why I am in the relationship.

When I say enjoyment I mean it won't be filled with the financial and emotional hardships that my first marriage was. I am specifically talking about my enjoyment of marriage not my enjoyment of life. I know that part is my responsibility and is beyond the scope of this board.

I didn't change my answer, to me it is two separate questions. One is why is he my boyfriend today and two is why I want to marry him in the future.

I know the purpose of this board is to help me improve my relationship.

I can also talk about what happened this morning, about how I feel he was trying to start an argument with me. That would be a second topic I could start.

         Perhaps it is three questions.  Is why you stay a different question?  That is what was answered in the thread.  You stay because of what he promised to do for you.  Has that answer changed since yesterday?          

FF

 Form flier we are at 7 pages and I'm afraid we're going to get cut off.

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I was thinking about this and I also stay because he is emotionally supportive.

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The answer hasn't changed but my understanding of it has based on feedback from the board.

          I'm glad you are a stayer and want to work on your r/s.  One of the reasons that we developed your need for taking space in a previous thread was to give you more time for you.  To sort out your feelings, tend to your hurts, really step up your self care regimen.  In my opinion, threads about who hung up on who and what "the problem" is that you are facing on a certain day, will not be productive until you sort out a lot of big picture items.  Taking space and time for yourself will give you the opportunity to work on those things.  Most people on the staying board have a clear reason that they are going to put the required effort into improving a relationship with a pwBPD traits.  I have no clue what your reason is.  The answers provided are inconsistent and represent big changes in a short period of time.  Taking time to work on me often produces great gains for me and for my relationship.  If I'm not stable and consistent, I am subject to being blown around by the shifting winds of the pwBPD in my life.    My hope and advice for you is to spend time by yourself, working on yourself, so you can find something stable to build on.          

FF  

Form flier, I know this topic is going to get locked soon.

What can I do to change your perception of me as not being stable inside or not having a clear reason for staying? I find it distressing that you think of me that way because it is not who I am so I want to more accurately represent myself to you and I don't know how to do that.

Are there any other stayers who are engaged?

         1.  Have a thread, get guidance in that thread, take consistent action on the decisions that you make.  Your choices.  Such as taking space for yourself.   2.  Slow down, especially for the big questions.  The moments will pass.  Many times slowing down will solve the problem of the moment.    3.  Stability is not a yes or no.  Identify steps towards greater stability, and take those steps.    4.  Don't worry about what I think, or your boyfriend thinks.  Worry about what you think and how you think.  Loop back to number 2.  Slow down.  5.  You are representing yourself just fine.  You posts and how they come across have been consistent.  Focus more on taking steps towards stability and emotional health that worrying about how you represent yourself.    As you grow and get stronger it will be obvious to all.  You are in a safe place.  We are all rooting for you and your r/s.  There are tried and true methods to give your relationship with a pwBPD traits the best chance of success.  Slowly but surely if you focus on #1, those methods will become part of you.  Again, that will become obvious to all as you make those changes.   You can do this!           

FF

Form flier what I am saying is that you have a false perception that I am mentally or emotionally unstable and I am asking you how I can change your perception.

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I should also add what can I do to change your perception of me that I am emotionally unhealthy?

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I think what is going on here is that I am so transparent that you can see right through me and into the difficulties in my life that I did not create and you think what you are seeing is me and it is not. I could be wrong.

Please don't worry so much about others perceptions, or my perception of you.    Slow down, focus on the content, don't worry about others perceptions.  It's not right or wrong, black or white.  I am advising you to stake a step towards more health, more stability, more strength.  Very different that saying you have none.  Think of it as going to the gym.  You already have muscles, you need (want) to make them stronger.  More stability, more emotional health is good for anyone.  It is critical if you are going to stay in a r/s with a pwBPD traits.  You will have to lead.  You do that by keeping your side of the street clean.    Show them (the pwBPD) the path to better regulation of their emotions by living an example for them.  This is hard stuff.  Important stuff.  It's a journey we are all on.  I look forward to cheering you on as you take consistent steps in the direction of stability and health.          

FF

Thank you for your kind words form flier. I will be repeating the emotional regulation unit of DBT next month with the revised DBT skills training manual .

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