BPDFamily.com

These people are damaged and developmentally arrested, which drives a lot of acting-out behaviors. The following traits are typical of someone who could be considered to have borderline pathology:

*Unstable, rapidly-shifting patterns of relating; hot/cold, come here/go away, push-pull dynamics.

*Quick/intense involvement, premature conversations about living together, marrying or choosing names for (future) children. Pregnancy entrapment.

*Abandonment issues; intense, irrational fears/concerns that you'll leave, or someone will steal you away from them.

*Abusive, critical and rejecting emotionally, psychologically or physically.

*Addiction to chaos and drama. Serene/harmonious periods are short lived.

*Anxiety issues, Panic Disorder or Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD).

*Attachment fears~ acting-out angrily after periods of closeness.

*Avoidant personality, passive-aggressive, sarcastic.

*Body dysmorphia; seeing oneself as hideous/ugly or disfigured.

*Cognitive distortion or thought disordered. Gives strangely incongruent responses to your attempts to communicate openly, or problem solve.

*Commitment phobic, disrupts/runs away from closeness and intimacy.

*Crazy-making interactions. Poor comprehension skills, lacks common sense.

*A desperate need for attention/approval from you and others.

*Deflects confrontation by crying, raging or projecting it back on you.

*Denial of unsavory, childish behavior. Can't/won't apologize.

*Dissociated, disconnected, shut-down, 'checked out' or numb.

*Drug, alcohol and/or food abuse (eating disorders).

*Emotional cut-off or withdrawal. Withholding affection and/or sex.

*Expects you to be a mind-reader or mommy, and intuit his/her needs (see 'transference' issue below).

*Extreme jealousy; tries to separate you from all other attachments (friends, family members, your kids, etc.).

*Inappropriately flirtatious with others, even in your presence.

*Gaslighting; makes you doubt your perceptions, or think you're going crazy.

*Guilting and shaming you during the relationship, and after it's over; when anything's gone wrong, it's always (supposedly) "your" fault.

*Many higher-functioning Borderlines become psychotherapists (yikes!) due to never having resolved their own core trauma issues.

*Highly manipulative and controlling. Your sense of identity and autonomy is severely compromised in a relationship with a Borderline.

*Charming; subtle or obvious attempts to re-engage you, suck you back into their life, seduce and manipulate you, etc. BPD's use pitiful outcries for help, or sneaky efforts to reach You through your kids, your friends or relatives.

*Hypersexuality or asexuality/non-sexual (especially after marriage).

*Impotency; a man's persistent inability to achieve orgasm with intercourse, difficulty maintaining erections, chronic premature ejaculation.

*Infantile behavior; tantrums, rageful outbursts, persistent baby-talk, etc.

*Infidelity; extramarital sexual or emotional affairs, 'cheating' on partner.

*Inflated sense of self; grandiosity or false sense of entitlement.

*Kitchen-sinking; during your relational upsets, they bring up everything (but the kitchen sink) you've ever done 'wrong' and clobber you with it--whether it was resolved at an earlier time, or not! This makes problem-solving impossible.

*Lack of remorse or empathy, unwillingness to own their mistakes/flaws.

*Lying and deceitfulness, mixed messages, self-contradicting.

*Mother issues (often portrayed/couched as "father" issues).

*Needy, clingy or overly dependent. Can't tolerate aloneness.

*Only wanting/loving you when there's distance--or they can't actually have you.

*Paradoxical emotional responses; when you love them more, they love you less. The closer you get, the more they need to distance.

*Passive-aggressive; acting it out, rather than talking it out.

*Pervasive feelings of hopelessness, helplessness or pessimism.

*Physical ailments or sickly, allergies, diseases, pain--even when very young.

*Poor impulse control. Capable of volatile or violent behaviors & vandalism.

*Poor self-worth, insecurity, low self-esteem, self-loathing.

*Projection; when they assign their own deficits/faults, to you.

*Rebound relationships are extremely common (the bed never gets cold).

*Resolution with interpersonal upsets is virtually impossible. Twisting your words and distorting the facts is common, and the two of you keep circling the drain with no end to the problem in sight. Your Borderline may seem like they're comprehending the immediate concern, and is on-board what you're trying to put forth--but this same issue resurfaces next time a similar event occurs, and you feel like you're replaying the same old broken record.

*Seductive/sexual up until marriage, or the relationship gets solidified or deepened.

*Selective memory or recall of events pertaining to their screw-ups. When it comes to yours though, his/her mind is like a steel trap, and they forget nothing!

*Self-harm or self-mutilation; cutting/burning skin, picking at blemishes until there is significant damage to adjacent tissue, numerous piercings, tattoos, body ornamentation, etc., poor or distorted physical image.

*Self-sabotage in personal and/or professional realms.

*Sexual molestation or incest in childhood (which may not be remembered).

*Sexually assertive/aggressive. BPD females will usually initiate romantic or sexual pursuit--unless they're Waifs.

*Significant lapses in childhood memory.

*Splitting; idealizing or devaluing behaviors, love you/hate you, and black or white perceptions/ideations.

*Stalking; following/shadowing you, incessant text or phone messages, etc. Always checking in with you (and up on you). Suffocating/smothering.

*Suicidal ideation and emotional blackmail; "I don't want to go on living--I'll kill myself if you leave me/don't return," etc.

*Transference; it means your Borderline assigns the same traits/features to you, that belonged to his/her undermining parent or caregiver as a child. It's not uncommon therefore, for them to expect you to hurt them, but needing you to function as a (good) parent or mind-reader and intuit their needs.

*Triangulation; anything/anyone that dilutes the focus on your relationship; getting a new pet, having an affair, working longer hours, substance abuse, having a baby, etc.

*Tricotillomania; the ongoing compulsion to pull out facial hair (eyelashes, eyebrows, etc.) or body hair. Considered a facet of self-mutilation.

*Vaginismus; painful, spasmodic contracting of the vagina, which prevents sexual intercourse/penetration. This is a somatic issue, often brought on by unresolved childhood incest or sexual abuse trauma. At its core, this is a very deep fear of closeness, and inability to trust another, or oneself.

*You'll always have the feeling you can't please him/her, or have them know how much you really love or care about them. The Borderline makes you feel like you're never enough--no matter how much you give, or do for them.

"These people" is too general a term, everyone's different, and it's better to talk about traits and their severity when we're talking about individual people.  Also, Shari is not a recognized resource on BPD although some folks find her stuff beneficial, better to stick with the definitions of the disorder as itemized in the DSM.

So there's that, and what's going on with you today Magnet?  How is your detachment going?

I don't know whether she is an expert or not but her checklist hits on so many of my ex's traits it is scary.

I am doing OK

Yes, and it's good to talk about; which traits did you experience and how did they affect you?

scary stuff

Yup a lot of this is my ex to a T

you should be advised, as has been mentioned, that schreiber is not an expert. this list includes a multitude of behaviors that are not unique to BPD, nor are traits of the disorder.

Shari Schreiber: Online Reputation, Independent Review (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273738.0;all)

we do have a board that explores clinical BPD behavior here: Questions about BPD and BPD Resources (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=45.0)

and an article you may find useful here: Top 25 Traits & Behaviors of Personality Disorders (https://bpdfamily.com/content/traits-personality-disorder)

Yes I know .

Shari Schreiber is one of the worst sources of information about BPD on the internet.  She runs, in my opinion, a hate site.  Much of her information is not clinically sound, and it's well outside of mainstream professional consensus about BPD.  It's not what we are about here.  We seek to understand BPD in a clinically sound fashion and to learn about ourselves instead of demonizing people suffering from mental illness.

So, which of the traits I bold faced is not a borderline trait?

They all seem borderline to me

she doesn't run a hate site, she runs a pro man site

Honestly, almost all of it fits my ex.  But.  It's strange.  A lot is not in the DSM.

over 40 traits including the vaginism thing.  Never knew that was a thing.  I thought she was doing it intentionally because it stopped once she was comfortable with me.

BDD

terrible nightmares, too.

thats because traits of BPD are part of BPD pathology - most of this list is not, and that is, among other reasons (please see the link provided) that she is far from an expert or professional. vague generalities like "lying and deceitfulness" - who does that not apply to? how does one define "crazy making interactions"? "gaslighting" is a myth, an urban legend.

"Highly manipulative and controlling. Your sense of identity and autonomy is severely compromised in a relationship with a Borderline." or with anyone else, if you allow someone else to compromise your identity.

"charming; subtle or obvious attempts to re-engage you, suck you back into their life, seduce and manipulate you, etc. BPD's use pitiful outcries for help, or sneaky efforts to reach You through your kids, your friends or relatives." that ascribes motives to a person that simply may not exist, let alone be conscious as this implies.

"Lack of remorse or empathy, unwillingness to own their mistakes/flaws.unwillingness to own their mistakes/flaws."

people with BPD do not have a lack of remorse or empathy in general - this is a misunderstanding of BPD pathology. how many folks without a personality disorder have an unwillingness to own blame or flaws?

i can go on. i dont want to "kitchen sink" though  *). as fromheeltoheal suggested, it helps to get specific about what traits and behaviors we experienced in our relationship as opposed to vague generalities about a large, diverse group of people.

alleged physical ailments are used as a means of manipulation

mine did it all the time especially if i wanted to go out with friends

probably a coping mechanism to deal with abandonment fears

also probably related to the fact my ex grew up in a very non nurturing environment and was neglected

Yes, being emotionally attached to someone with a mental illness can be painful and confusing Magnet, and it can be a relief to come somewhere like this and have "Aha!" moments; it wasn't us, or at least all us, and plenty of other folks have experienced it too, relieving yes?

And while getting clear on the behaviors of borderlines is helpful at clearing up the confusion, ultimately to detach we can start shifting the focus to ourselves and how those behaviors affected us.

So how did you ex's behaviors make you feel?

Like garbage.  I allowed myself to lose my very good job because I was constantly running around doing things for her, racing to rescue her from panic attacks or other ailments, dealing with her threats of divorce (hundreds of times over the years)

she comes from a very wealthy family and she never respected or cared about my job

i put up no boundaries fearing her rages

she refuses to acknowledge her role in my lost job and did nothing to emotionally support me during my lay off

This is interesting. I was just thinking about the idea of "gaslighting"--wrt someone else (my mother, who is actually quite narcissistic).

I was thinking how what I call gaslighting, in her case, is probably just her honest defense against unpleasant memories or a way of avoiding being wrong. She is an ace historical revisionist. She will change her story mid-conversation if necessary.

It's not what Charles Boyer does to Ingrid Bergman. It's not gaslighting in the sense of trying to make me think I'm going crazy.

My idea of gas lighting is crazy making and we all know borderlines are very good at crazy making.

It is an expression you often see assigned to the borderline pathology.

I think the precise definition is when someone is TRYING to make you think you're crazy. Not just making you crazy.

That sucks man, been there and it's very painful.  Can you find one positive thing to take from the experience?  For no other reason than some dude on the internet suggested it, as a way to start building a future you're fired up about?  That starts with one step.

A beautiful amazing daughter (who she will probably f**k up royally--sigh)

well she always accused me of being the crazy one which seems like part projection part gas lighting

What if she really believed in that moment that you were the crazy one? (Hence projecting.) She's not trying to trick you, right?

It seems like semantics--like people are just using the term differently--but it's kind of an important difference. Defensive behavior vs malicious behavior.

But in the end it only matters to the extent that it's helpful to you to think about whether you were being intentionally manipulated or just caught up in someone else's mental distortions.

I mean, the real important thing, it seems to me, is that you come to terms with how that other person made you feel, right? So maybe it doesn't matter. We have an answer: she made you feel crazy!

Which I can completely identify with.

its great that you took something valuable from her and made a connection. individuals are obviously free to decide for themselves, but this is a site based on clinical information, and HON code certified.

when we are looking for answers on the internet, without a clinical background, its easy, and understandable to believe any given thing we may read. we dont necessarily have the skills to determine whats true and what isnt. we have a multitude of clinical resources. you are of course, free to pursue outside information for whatever reason you choose. i can think of a couple of resources i consider hate sites, but ive read them plenty.

You got it right here. In the end, trying to find the right flavor of the personality disorder is pointless. Does it really matter if they loved you or simply used you? I mean, sure, it is much easier to accept and swallow that somebody loved you so much that they just couldn't handle it and run away (BPD) as opposed to somebody using you like an inanimate object and then throwing you away with no remorse (NPD). And that's cool. But does it really matter if in the end the out come is the same - you got treated like $hyt. That's the main part here and no self respecting person should have people in his or her life who treat him or her like that. Period.

Nope, doesn't count, you negated it.  Got another?

I'll always be grateful to Shari for rescuing me from the cesspit of confusion my girlfriend was drowning me in.

  Having said that, I think you sort of graduate from the Shari stuff with time and detachment and start seeing your ex less in the 'pantomime villain' mode she seems to depict.


Fanny

A monster is a monster.

True. Whilst we deem all of our exes to be 'borderline' the havoc wreaked by them ranges from the relatively mild to the absolutely devastating.    The scale of what you put up with probably dictates whether you  can muster up any compassion for your ex or not.

I still talk to mine, but would probably hate her if she'd cost me my home, my kid or my freedom.


Fanny

Well, there are people who want to have the invalid validated, and Shreiber excels at that.  That's not what we are about here, though.  For those that want that, she has a site for this already.  We are about a holistic, balanced, clinical understanding of BPD.  Schreiber doesn't provide that.  She provides polemics against pwBPD that demonize them and absolve us of any role in the relationship.  She promotes victimization, and some people do prefer to buy into that.  What you will find if you are willing to dig deep enough is that this is not the case, however.  I can say that with a high degree of certainty, because I've been around here long enough to see the experiences of hundreds of members.  Self-examination is hard work.  Blaming our partner is the easy way out.  We all have to make that commitment to dig deep, of course, and not everyone chooses that.  But it is not helpful to have Schreiber's links posted here, because it leads people astray.  It leads them down the road of victimization, and that's not healthy.  We all had a role.  Let's do the hard work in examining that and helping one another to achieve it.

I am being strong worded, because it's important that members know this.  Having her links posted here without rebuttal is dangerous and gives the impression that her views are somehow endorsed by the wider mental health profession.  It validates the invalid.  I don't blame new members for posting her links.  It happens with some frequency.  She is unfortunately one of the top Google searches about BPD and she puts on a good show that lends the appearance authenticity to what she is saying.  So, I don't blame members.  The person I have a real issue with is Schreiber.  I believe she is doing a real disservice to people who are suffering from a very traumatic experience.

mr magnet, this advice isnt offered to pick on you, and its very much with an understanding of what youre going through, what you have been through. its also offered with the assumption that you want to better understand it all. we are trying to guide you through that toward healing. we all move at our own pace. in the mean time, its best to avoid generalizations. youre not expected to arrive here and start listing the things you did "wrong" and its less about "wrong" and more about a balanced understanding anyway, but sometimes it can feel like fingers being pointed at us. i get that.

right now, your view is this:


is that really how you have always felt about this person? youre hurting. its understandable. look, i called my ex a monster to her face on many occasions and im not proud of it. if i really felt that way i had to, at some point, ask myself what the hell i was doing anywhere near her in the first place. truth is i didnt feel that way, and if you consider that your ex is a human with good qualities like everyone else, and that you felt that way at one time (you dont have to over focus on it) it will help you, in time, in your grieving process.

But what if those good qualities are illusory?

Inauthentic?

Manipulative

And if my love was more like addiction to pain then what was really there?

It was a sham

Two different things, right?  She is who she is, but there's a lot of value in digging into your possible misinterpretation of addiction to pain as love.  Why do you think you did that?

i understand the feeling. give these thoughts some time. as we work through the grief the big picture becomes clearer. you dont have to decide what was "real" and what wasnt today.

you raise a good point though, and its complicated. as you may know, people with BPD have an unstable sense of self. not all of the positive things we loved about our exes were things that were a part of their core, in the sense of who they are. then again, neither are all the negative things.

when you look at the diagnostic criteria for BPD (this is not a professional opinion) it reads to me, a set of primitive, unhealthy coping mechanisms that are pervasive and consistent over time, and have a major effect on interpersonal relationships. theyre coping mechanisms that arent unique to BPD, except in that consistent, pervasive sense, and the extent to which they are ingrained personality traits.

youll never hear me tell you that people with BPD are incapable of being manipulative, we all are. we arent all aware of it when we are doing it. and at the heart of manipulation is a primitive way of surviving. by the very nature of BPD psychopathology, attachment is survival. feelings about that attachment are felt with a great deal of intensity. sustaining them is another matter. in our relationships, many promises were made. many deeply close, vulnerable moments were had and shared. many loving things were said. you were there, they all happened, and are therefore very real. ever have a girlfriend you told something like that shes the most beautiful girl in the world? still believe that? probably not. but you probably did at the time.

i can only speak for me. neither my ex or i had what i would consider a healthy, adult, sustainable love for each other. we did both love each other in the best way we could, as much as we could. for neither of us was it sustainable. we were each manipulative. we were each inauthentic. in different ways and in not so different ways. i wonder if id ever have seen my own emotional unavailability, and limited, misguided sense of love, if not for my relationship. not that i was incapable of a stable relationship. but that my capacity for the kind of loving relationship i truly want has greatly expanded.

i did not come to any of those conclusions over night. i spent most of the first year of my recovery trying to hate my ex because it felt better than the alternative. not just that, but i literally felt that feeling anything but contempt was somehow wrong, or that there was something wrong with me and my grieving process. as i write this im coming up on five years out. my ex is not someone i would ever want in my life. shes not someone whos praises i could sit here and sing. thats okay. at one time i wanted to be her boyfriend, and at one time i wanted to marry her. just because i feel differently now doesnt mean i didnt sincerely feel that way at the time.

none of this is easy. give it time, mr magnet, and allow yourself to grieve. we are here to support you as you do.

I get what you are saying

I don't think I'm a victim

I just think it doesn't matter if I were emotionally healthy as opposed to codependent

First I would have run

Second even if I stayed, it would still be a sh#t storm

It's all on me for trying to find love through a borderline

I know what that says about me and my core shame

I'll get through this and plan on finding a healthy partner

She will never find anything but complete dysfunction

Well, because of the horrific prenup I signed the divorce was over in 6 weeks.

emotionally healthy people dont simply "run". they cope and they manage. they do, of course, recognize when something is becoming unhealthy.

being a healthier partner will lend itself to finding a healthy partner :thought:

the paradox that mind effs me is that had I been healthier, the relationship would never have happened.

Let's keep going with that.  What do you think was unhealthy in yourself?  Why do you think you engaged in the relationship?

Good move Magnet!  What if everything happens for a reason and it serves us?  What if borderlines come into our lives at the right time because there are lessons it's time to learn, and when the student if ready the teacher appears?  Teachers come in unique packaging sometimes and the lessons can be difficult, but now that your focus has shifted you can get to work building the life of your dreams, using the newfound wisdom with a clear idea what you need to work on.  And one day you may look back at the relationship and consider it a gift, because look how far you've gone and how much you've grown!  Take care of you!

I was raised by an emotionally unavailable mom and had a dad who criticized and yelled a lot (eggshells).

I mostly think it's about my mom though. 

This is so on point for my ex it frightens me

www.boomeranglove.com/asp/redflags-all.asp

That list is pretty interesting --- I laughed when I read that some will become psychotherapists... .


My exBPD was doing a masters degree part time to become a psychologist... .hahahahahahaha

I, too, took some comfort from Shari's writings in the initial crazy-making stages of my breakup. But once_removed is totally correct: she doesn't meet clinical standard in her work, and she is also very negative, hopeless, and reductive in her critique of pwBPD. It's a good starting place to help you get pissed off enough to stay away (if that's your intention), but there is more balanced and constructive literature out there if you want to learn to live with or improve a relationship with a pwBPD.

thoughts on link 2 posts above?

When I take into account that the header on that list clearly states "BEHAVIORS THAT MAY INDICATE BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER" (emphasis mine), I agree with much of it. And those are all definitely red flags.

But overall I think it's more constructive to look at your ex as an individual and not as part of some monolithic group. All of the BPD traits are difficult to deal with as a partner, regardless of diagnosis, or how many traits any given person might display or not display. You know which ones you experienced, and now maybe you have a name for a possible disorder and a reason around which to analyze your experience.

It sounds like you're pre-disposed (like me!) to being drawn to disordered individuals, because of your family of origin issues. That's your part in this, and the part you can control. It's good to look at both sides.

She has been officially diagnosed.  She is the worst type IMO--rage.  She fits at least 75% of that list.  I was willing to take the pain because I wanted to be there to buffer for my kid.  As crazy as this sounds one argument I made to her was isn't it in the kid's best interests to have a borderline relationship with his dad as opposed to the next victim(s) who walk(s) through the door?

I would tend to agree with you there!

I think that in kid's best interest is to have at least one 'healthy' parent as a rolemodel. In case where nonBPD stays with BPD that is not in therapy, it is hard to stay 'healthy'. So, I think kid can actualy benefit from divorce, as much as this sounds 'wrong' at first impression. But that is just my opinion.

she was in therapy and group dbt therapy

she was still an a-hole