BPDFamily.com

Hi FF, just cuious.  Most of your posts now start in the Staying board, but are then moved to the Undecided board.  :)oes that mean you are undecided on whether you are undecided?   :)

I think the mods have moved some over based on the nature of the discussions.

I'm a stayer, but will not stay at all costs.

Hehe, will have to think about my "decisions" more,

FF

Hi FF, did you switch boards?

No.  I'm still a stayer.  I think the mods think some of the discussion is better suited for Undecided. 

FF

My 2 cents is that mods should be careful about moving threads between boards.  I think a lot of people (myself included) pick the Staying board because they don't want to get advice that they should leave the relationship.  I know I tailor my advice based on the board that I see a thread.

 I would rather they don't get moved, but it's not something I get worked up about.

Listen, you guys know me pretty good.  Chances that I will leave or stay in a r/s based on what someone is telling me on the boards is pretty low.  

Still, I know the feeling and the advice can be different from a stayer that is interested in long term r/s success, vice someone that is looking to make life easier on someone very quickly. (cut and run)

My worst concern about being on undecided is that many of the people that read and advise might miss it.  I have had a pretty good amount of people following me over here, so that concern may be a bit unfounded.

Oh, last few days have been tolerable.  Been trying to focus on my reading and just do my thing.

Saturday she did a powerplay thing about going ice skating.  I could come if I want, but there were no other options.

FF

Good for you FF, and as usual what a great attitude. I'll admit I felt a little shock when the first post got moved over. If there's anyone who embodies a "stayer," both in your own marriage, and for all the folks on that board looking for support and feedback, it's you.

Having said that, if you're okay with it, I'm okay with it.

Chump

 Thanks chump.

Not sure if this is a good place for a mod to jump in and perhaps explain or point out reasoning.

I'm a stayer, but made several comments that I would not stay at all costs.  There are some abusive behaviors that if they continue at an unacceptable level, I would separate, divorce or otherwise use some sort of boundary to separate myself from that activity.

My Achilles heal is sleep.  The standard advice is to go sleep somewhere else.  That doesn't work for me.


FF

Yeah, I'm a "stayer" but my ex left almost two years ago. The relationship didn't survive healthy boundary setting. I still believe in doing whatever is possible to have a healthy(ish) relationship with someone you love who happens to suffer from mental illness, for me love is a big thing, it's worth fighting for, but not at any cost. That doesn't include losing yourself, forgetting your values, or accepting/allowing abuse.

I still come to the "staying" boards to learn, be inspired, improve my relationship skills, etc. There are folks like you on there that I believe are genuinely heroic, in the best sense of the word, modelling how powerful a force love can be.

Chump.

 

Fian,

You (we) are now famous.  We have our own thread.

One thought.  My attitude has shifted a bit and that may have contributed to the shift over (I'm speculating about reasons for the shift, so if Mods want to clarify, ).

For a long time I was "doing what is best" for my wife by following the rules and all of that.  I still reference the rules and I realize that when I violate them, I will likely pay a price in the r/s.  There are few free decisions in life,

For instance, defending my ability to sleep where I need to sleep has obviously had a cost.  It appears to have worked, again, and while I'm not "happy" that I had to pay that cost, I did what I needed to do.

My wife and I had a great period of r/s improvement (from my point of view, I'm still waiting for counseling to hear her point of view).  I believe that I have a much better idea in my head (thinking) and in my heart (emotions) about what a healthy r/s looks and feels like.  I realize that it is likely there are no perfect r/s's out there and I have no cloudy vision that predicts I will one day have a "healthy" r/s with my wife.  However, I am not going back (and staying ) with the level of dysfunction and unhealthy behavior on display since January 8, 2016. 

That was the day I got in trouble for taking my college kids out to lunch while my wife worked.  She ordered kids into van and went to dinner without me, making a big deal that I was not invited.  Later that nigh she woke me up with TV, I asked for relief so I could sleep.  She clearly said "No".  When I asked for a conversation she glared at me.

Since then there have been sporadic periods of good r/s, but by and large she has been a nasty woman since then.

Perhaps that attitude is not the best to have on the staying board.  I really do want to stay, I do, but I seem to have a longer list of conditions (boundaries).

My .02 cents for now.

Open to thoughts and I appreciate this thread.

FF

My thread was moved, too. I am a stayer. Literally in the last few months I have felt burnt out, and have felt really stuck. I have been mainly in a state of disheartenment and not knowing what to do anymore.

It's really easy for me to be talked into hopelessness and deep depression over my relationship. I love my boyfriend. Very much so. I have been trying to learn better ways of handling things.

Undecided board can be a bit of a harsh place for someone who wants to stay.

My thinking is that you should get to choose which board to post in.  If you want Staying advice, you post to Staying board.  If you are open to "get out as fast as you can" advice, then you post on the undecided board.  I understand that mods do need to move threads around that are obviously in the wrong place, I just think they need to be more careful about moving threads between Staying and Undecided.

My threads have been moved from here to staying. I have been really undecided for about a year after a couple of physical type abuse incidents; that is a line that defines me. There has to be significant change for me to be able to stay well, including things that trigger my husband's abandonment fears. He has gotten a bit better about some of the abusive behaviors,  but others continue.  

It is very important that the individual gets to choose, and they do.

However sometimes the actions and decisions made in the relationship, toward the pwBPD are not improving the overall relationship. The OP may not be able to see this as they are often inside a situation reacting. The move between boards can often help widen the parameters of emotional exploration and increase awareness of behaviours that are not helpful to the overall situation.

Sometimes even after a long time on Staying it becomes clear that despite guidance and support around how to improve the relationship that this is not happening. The person can be stuck in entrenched patterns of responding that are escalating conflict not diffusing it.

What I might be inclined to do if my posts were moved between boards is ask myself what am I doing that is causing this? How can I do things differently to improve the relationship?

Perhaps ask those responding to your thread for constructive feedback on the move and what they think might be happening.

Sometimes when we are upset we revert back to old ways of coping and loose our way. Changing boards can be a way of shining a light on what is happening in a way that helps us process the situation with more clarity.

From my point of view, I may not have posted at all if I thought the advice I was going to get was to leave.  For board regulars, it probably doesn't matter as much, but for newbies it may be intimidating.

Of course, there is also the issue for newbies that they can't find the thread that they created.  That can also create challenges for regulars that have to hunt to find out the latest on a particular person.  I think the mods need to dial back the thread moving a bit.

So, I am interested in what comes about in this thread.  I have seen other posts get moved, or split, including my own and I was not so thrilled about it.  (I find it triggering to my PTSD to have my words moved and an original thread altered.  It is disorienting to me, and makes me question myself and my memory.)

I was directed to deal with such issues of thread split and moves by using 'report' features of the site.  Therefore I'm surprised this thread was split to be open discussion?

I had a few differing thoughts about it, but rather than speculate, it would be nice to hear directly why FF post was moved.  Maybe this is personal and addressed in PM, not this thread, or maybe not addressed directly at all... .But anyway... .Since this thread is here for all, I'll ramble some of my thoughts... .

Where are the descriptions on "Who should post here?"  Was that moved? Removed? Or I just can't find it?

I did see FF set some boundaries around his sleep issue.  I also noticed he was not flexible about compromising in regards to this.  If he was moved to undecided for this, I feel concerned because the issue was not exactly of 'sleep,' but IMHO rather about FFW being abusive and him setting a boundary around abuse.  If he was expected to compromise around abuse... .hence moved... .that would be crummy.  Yes... .all speculation on my part.  Just one of several random thoughts I have had. 

IMHO again... .if a person is using terminology such as 'sleep hygiene' and demo's clear understanding about his needs and disabilities and expresses many alternatives tried and not successful... .then it is not for me to judge that 'they are not trying enough.' Especially when the person demo's flexibility of mind/workability/compromise/open to considering other perspectives in the majority of all other areas brought to the board.

However, I did consider that maybe when there is an element of abuse acknowledged, that posts get moved in order to open up the posters mind to 'undecided' thoughts as their reality is such that they would benefit from some 'undecided' perspectives until threats of abuse are no longer a threat to the relationship.

Of course... .endless speculations exist out there... .and a few other came to mind.  However, I did think it important to bring up the abuse issue in case it was on someone else mind besides me. _{(And I am curious if there is an explanation provided here that helps me resolve this in my mind with my past posts)}

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56291.0

Above are the Undecided guidelines on who should post here and below are the guidelines for Improving,

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56303.0


Sunflower makes an important point in saying that the OP can ask the mods why the post was moved when it occurs.

 

Hey.  Just so everyone knows.  I was asked and told staff I didn't mind.  So I didn't fight it, but didn't promote the move either.

I've asked staff if they care if the exact PMs are posted here, but I can assure you the exact words are pretty boring, nothing salacious.

I'm also fine if there is some discussion of my "inflexibility" or departure from rules and that kind of thing.  My heart wants to stay, but I have made some decisions about what I will support with rules and such, and there is other bad behavior my wife may choose, and I will leave her to feel the consequences or be invalidated.

I won't persecute her but will not do anything to lessen her pain.  I'm not a repairman, I'm a husband.  She likely has a hard road to walk and some of her choices may make it harder. 

Looking forward to more discussion.

FF

FF:

Were you inflexible in anything beside setting boundaries around abuse?

Did you veer away from 'the rules?'  How so?

_{I wonder if I am not seeing something here.  I realize the point is to challenge one another and not validate the invalid... .however, I feel like I am missing something... .not trying to blindly validate you either.}

Sweetheart:
FF: What do you think you did to cause the move?

_{Obviously, feel free to disregard if it is not my business, as you are clearly not having issue to be resolved with this one.}

*mod*


Hi guys.

We split this topic out to explain what is going on in general terms.  

sweetheart and sunflower are correct to say that for anyone being moved, they should go to the guidlines (https://bpdfamily.com/content/terms-service) and select Clarification | Appeal | Reinstatement | Technical Problem (click here) Most who have been moved have been involved in a staff dialog.

Why are threads moved? It the macro sense, all of the messageboards here will naturally devolve into a BPD bashing/blaming format if the staff and senior members do not have clear board values, rules, and boundaries and enforce them. We are who we are because we vigorously protect our board missions. "Improving" is our highest level board.

• I think we all see the wisdom in this when the members saying "run!" are relocated away from the Improving board. This message is a significant threat to the board and the shear volume of members that would post it, if allowed, would over run the board in no time. These members are justified in their feelings and we have a place for these members to express it (The Detaching Board).

• There is a second common threat - triangulation (https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle). Triangulation is the second greatest threat to the "Improving Board". It generally manifests as posters looking for members to validate their position in couples disputes. The outcome is to generally make matter worse - this dynamic polarizes the couple and expands or entrenches the couples dispute. There is good information here on this dynamic: triangulation (https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle)  Going through phases of this is often part of the process - we can't deny that - we have a place for these members to express it (The Undecided Board).

• There is a third common threat - "boundary beaters" - members that cloak fighting in terms of "healthy boundaries".  Historically, our most "abusive" stayers have done what they have done in the name of "boundaries".  For example, we had one member abandon their partner who was checked into admitted into the hospital on an emergency basis for a double hip transplant - our member used this opportunity to lock her partner out, put his belongings in storage, and date someone in her office, as our members validated her. This is a good article on values/boundaries here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Does one "off topic"  thread get you moved? No. The moves typically come after an extended period of off topic threads and review by the four or more moderators. Most often there is an attempt by senior members to coach on-board and staff may be involved in off-board coaching.  Sometimes, there is no-offline coaching because it is recognized that the member is committed to their position at the time and the move is to give them space to work it out.

Isn't this harmful to newbies? No. The staff and senior members are all are of the "mentor" model. In this model, newbies get a wide berth to release pain and frustrations - flip around a bit for their first 10 - 25 posts -  while senior members are held to a higher standard of knowledge and emotional intelligence and balance. Senior members on "Improving" and "Parenting a Son or Daughter Suffering from BPD" and "Family law, divorce, and custody" are held to pretty high standards.

I hope this helps and I hope everyone can accept that this is just part of the process for all of us.

Skip

Hey guys, I checked with Skip to make sure this was ok.   Basically, I got a PM below


And I sent the following reply.  After that it looks like my posts are being put on undecided. 

I find it interesting... .

Thank you for allowing this thread and taking the time to both explain and post links to what guides the mods on this site.  It was helpful to read and review all.

In the spirit of the purpose of the site... .

It is only fitting that I look inward to think about what bothers me about this kind of thing to see what I need to address.  .

_{(And come up with my own thread to address it)}

I certainly had a handful of random angles that ran quickly through my mind.   

So it is kinda funny to see such a simple sentence:


I guess sometimes things are as simple as that, maybe.

In the words of the great man himself ( IMO  *) )

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Sigmund Freud  :)

Improving is about rebuilding and developing our path forward, often members get to a stage were they have rebuilt as much as they are willing to and have drawn a line as to where they are at. It is then over to the pwBPD to either live with it or the RS ends.

This is not failure but simply that at this stage a stand has been taken. The member has taken time out from improving/adapting, this may be permanent or temporary, at this stage members may be in the undecided mindset by way of "the balls in their court stance'.

Moving to undecided is as much about not potentially provoking new members on the Improving Board into making a "stand" before they have fully explored their options, as it is about that OPs individual circumstances.

Members who have adopted a strong stand develop influence, as most members are here hoping to find strength, but this needs to be developed in due course and not by emulation or assimilation. Left unchecked it can gather momentum and skew the direction of the board.

Similarly members who are stuck in 'as good as it gets' mode, and not actively pursuing to improve their lot tend to set a hopeless tone for new members and hence will be moved also.

The message aim is advancement to thriving, rather than surviving or entrenchment

Just so everyone knows I don't get run advice here. I'm undecided because my partner is still married and I will stay undecided until I either run out of patience or he gets divorced. Not everyone on the undecided board is looking for help to get out of their relationship. I'm certainly not. I'm trying to stay in it as long as I can in its current condition.

I think this thought is critical.  I would not have been in shape to be in this position even a year ago. 

I also don't want to be so bold to say what kind of shape I will be in a year from now.  Although my goal is that I will be emotionally and physically healthier and will be taking continued steps in that direction.  My hope is I will be doing that with my wife.

Nothing in this post from me should be taken to say, "I've learned it all".  In many respects I am humbled by how much I don't know and places I have growth to do.

Validation is one of them.  Most likely will be a years long process to get it to become second nature.

As I considered what posture I would assume in response to my wife's latest "episodes", I did consider areas that I am lacking. 

While validation is usually a good thing, I don't see me validating my way out of "I control this house and if you want to sleep, go somehwere else".

There was another comment in here about "putting the ball back in the pwBPDs court", or something to that effect.

That is pretty close to where I am at.  I do want to listen to what she has to say in counseling.  I will be prepared and try to be open minded.  Not all her stuff is without basis in fact. 

If she truly is settling in for a stance of "I run the show and you do what you are told, " that his her choice.  I'm not going to argue with her about it, but I won't remain in the r/s if that attitude persists.

I will make allowances for what she says in a regulated state and a dysregulated state.  It will be up to her if she wants to face those differences or not.

FF

sweetheart provided the links but here are some quick cut and pastes:

from the Improving board these are some of the guidelines/objectives 


from the undecided board these are some of the guidelines/objectives


Deciding on the location of posts extends far, far beyond the binary subset of Staying/Undecided.  These are complicated and many faceted relationships.   It's completely possible to be committed to staying in the relationship but undecided about how much (more) of yourself to invest knowing the requirements and sacrifices a BPD relationship requires.   The best place to sort out that kind of decision is here, where the tools and lessons built into the side bar address those concerns.


When a relationship is not Improving, and there is no immediate path forward, regardless of the reason the Improving Board is not the place to do triage because of the reasons that were mentioned upstream. 

This is huge point.  In large part due to the advice and counsel I got on staying, our r/s made great and wonderful strides.

To me, it seems that my wife has gone back to the days of old (in many ways).  I'm not going back.

There is, sort of an immediate path forward, but it involves waiting until we get in the counseling room, the only place she claims she can discuss this.   Whatever "this" is.

I have made a choice to wait on this.  I imagine it will be week or two until we get a firm date.  We are on waitlist.

For me the path forward looks like listening in counseling to the r/s she is offering.  I will explain the r/s I am offering.

If she is interested in pursuing the r/s I am offering I will tolerate some debate about events and motivations, but press quickly for solutions on how to get to the future.

If she has no interest in the r/s I am able to offer.  Not much more to talk about.

Note:  It will be no shock to her what I am able to offer.  Has been discussed before and agreed to, committed to and all that. 

The basic communication is that I have picked and broad direction for my life and I hope she will be coming with me, but she is free to choose how she lives her life.  I don't want her to come with me if it is not her choice.

FF

Thank you baby ducks that's why I am here as my relationship is breaking down.

I think this thread has reinforced the reasons why the site has different boards and why some posts are moved.

On a purely personal note, I can share my experience with being moved from Staying to Undecided.  My partner at the time went into a serious depressive/dysregulated episode early in the summer after we had lived t/g with the most stability ever for about 2 years.  He announced he had lost all feeling for me and didn't want to live with me anymore.  It was his home.  I hung on for three weeks (while searching for a place to stay just in case I couldn't salvage this and posting on Staying to explore how I wanted to take care of myself) and continuing to work full-time.  At the end of three weeks I had found a cottage that was available to me and my ex had softened but only to the point where he offered to me that I could stay as a roommate if I wanted with the couch to sleep on.  I had been bumped from beloved life partner and co-parent to roommate on couch.   I declined and signed the lease for the cottage.  

I was a little in shock the whole three weeks, I felt like he had died and the person left was a complete stranger to me.  

My home on the board had been the staying board for a long time... .and when my thread got bumped to Undecided because I chose to move out... .it mirrored in a painful way what I was going through with my ex.  I got bumped again.  It was not a bad thing, but it did hurt.  It was done nicely and it made perfect sense.  But, in a crises... .it felt a little like I was being kicked out of the club I felt most at home with, at the same time I was being pushed out of my home.  That was hard.  I didn't say a thing about it at the time, but, I think I was surprised at how attached I had become to the staying board and what it represented to me emotionally.   If felt attached to the staying board.

The way I soothed myself at the time was to PM members of the Staying Board that I was close with so that I was able to maintain that connection to a degree.  I knew it didn't really mean I was being demoted or kicked out (intellectually) but it did sting emotionally.  Much later after being on Leaving for a while, I eventually started posting again on Staying, but as a person who had a lot of experience with "Staying" in the past.

 

MaybeSo,

Thanks for the insight.

I can see a similar pattern playing out in my r/s.  I've become a lot healthier, I believe I have good, solid, healthy boundaries.  What I believe my wife is "telling" me is that she doesn't like the new me.  Has been complaining about it for a while.

For a while she sort of went along with it (got better).

I do PM some members and appreciate the PMs I have received back.  Every once in a while I will make a post over there.  I'm sort of self limiting my own postings to others threads right now because I have a lot on my plate,

I do still feel that staying is my "home" and where my heart is.  Hope to be back there someday.

FF

I too have been upset when some of my threads were moved from Staying to Undecided. Until I understood recently the criteria for the different boards, I felt like someone else was making an evaluation of my relationship, whereas I've never had any intention of leaving, other than in flights of fantasy.

What occurred to me lately was the threads that were moved had a theme where I was complaining and venting about my husband, playing the victim, without trying strategies to make things better. If I continue upon that path, it is likely that I really will be in the Undecided camp.

So thanks, moderators, for showing me this.  |iiii

Often after a crisis and with hindsight it is much easier to post againoin Staying/Improving board as your own opinions are more centered and objective.

When its all crashing down around you and your attention is on survival and consolidating who YOU are and where YOU are at, rather then building the RS then your eyes are not really focused on the Improving the RS tone of the board, and you are probably too involved to realize it... If this is happening to your threads take it as a  red-flag that this is what is happening. Its not one frustrated post that instigates this move it is the trending tone.

To new members seeing senior members posting in such a pessimistic light it can cause them to give up before they have even started ("if their RS is still a crock what chance mine?"  etc)

The double abandonment perception is understandable though.

I actually voluntarily moved from the staying board to the deciding board when I found out my partner's divorce hadn't been filed. I'm not moving back over there until I see a divorce case. I'm committed to staying in the relationship however that is dependent on how long I can wait for his divorce to be filed. At this point it is his wife that is holding up the show, however that doesn't change the effect it has on me.

the flip side... .

is it wise to move the real life struggles of a senior person from the eyes of newer folks in similar settings?  

are we trying to sweep reality under the rug?

the reality is, senior members sometimes aren't able to stay.   we can't control how a newer person might interpret that reality... .and it's not like we ever have a mass exodus of staying seniors all posting about a crash and burn all at the same time... .but it does in reality happen that senior members sometimes have to leave.   new people may be following the member to other boards anyway.  i think if the tone remains respectful and isnt going into black/white thinking or bashing... .it could potentially be helpful and prudent for it to stay longer in staying.  In my case it seemed more cut and dry... .if I'm moving I'm not staying so I was bumped.  That was several years ago... .it may be different today.  We have some inbetween boards today that we didn't when I moved out.

A senior member who is choosing to leave b/c the hostility in the home goes on unabated and decent boundaries continue to be ignored... .is something that might be educational for a newbie to see. Boundaries in action sometimes necessitate leaving. When we take care of our boundaries, that sometimes means leaving.  Not always, but sometimes.  It's not such a bad thing for a newbie to see that reality play out for some senior members w/out cutting them off the staying board mid-crises.

Maybe what you are saying is... .it depends on the tone... .?

I remember when I was moved, I was really agonizing and conflcted but I was not bashing ... .I even was struggling about if my choice to move was me engaging in b/w thinking... .and senior members encouraged me under the circumstances to realize that in a crises, we all do need to make hard decisions that we might otherwise not make. Black/White thinking  (emergency thinking) was wired into humans to assist us in a crises.  It's not always a bad thing.  It's only "bad" eg., dysfunctional when it's the only tool we have in our tool belt.

 

Boundaries do come at a cost and we are not always aware of exactly what those costs will be.

My wife is pushing to get us back into counseling and in her more dysregulated moments she will say it's 100% to fix me.  In other times she allows that she may have a thing or two that needs some tweaking.  So, there is hope and I can certainly hunker down for a while to let some time elapse and see if there is any serious effort to address stuff on "her side" of the dynamic.

At some point I will need to make a more detailed list of the hill(s) that I will let the r/s die on.  That's not my purpose (to off the r/s), but what I should be purposeful about is clarifying my values and the type of r/s that I can offer to my wife.  I want to offer that to her and let her know I want her to come along with me but also offer understanding if she chooses something else.

I understand that if we stay together that (at best) we will still have a rather eccentric r/s and that issues will come and go, many will probably be handled badly.  Look, nons will get ticked off and have it last for a few days.  I'm sure that will still happen if we stick together.

What I'm not going to have any part of, is a long term campaign to smear my character, alienate my kids, repeatedly demonstrate abusive behavior to and in front of the kids, and involve multiple other family members (her FOO) in the process.

Sure, I can be a clever guy and come out with some tactical victories here and there in that environment, but strategically thinking, I am just not going to be in that environment.

Back to boundaries and values:  I am very grateful that senior members "slowed me down" on my first boundary and educated me to not go back on setting it, once I set it.  Taking back my email and phone (keeping her out) was a hum dinger.  But it played out just as predicted.  Now she acts like it is no big deal, but will snoop when I am lazy and don't lock the laptop.

Perhaps "hard" is the only lesson newbies need to learn.  And maybe now the "potential cost" of boundaries is the appropriate lesson for me to be learning.  But at some point we should all face that and decide for ourselves how precious our boundaries (and person-hood) really is.

Keep the thread going, I'm liking the discussion.

FF

Its about maintaining a balance on the board. Yes, many senior members leave as a result of what they have learned here. That is not failure, that is them finding their direction after reaching a balanced state for them. In the meantime there is ebb and flow.

Posts are only moved when the balance of the board starts to be overly weighted towards lack of growth. Its not really determined soley by tone of a member but about the effect it has on the tone of the board as whole. The "pile on" effect if you like. This starts to have a subconscious effect on those who otherwise are not at that same state of their RS. Having a few high volume posters going though the same thing at the same time, and it no longer feels like the hopeful place it needs to be for new members.

To use an analogy: A senior member may have surveyed the entire landscape of their relationship, and finally chosen a hill to plant their flag and have decided not to budge any further. New members may come here, see this example, but not the research behind it and believe the answer to their problems is to go out and plant their flag on the nearest hill, but without the benefit of surveying the landscape first. ie it can provoke preemptive conclusions by emulation. The tone of the board has been effected and stagnated.

Improving is about exploring new areas for development. Dynamic rather than static. There is no quick fix. It is human nature to seek one, and taking an inflexible stand on the first issue they come across may seem like a way to go.

And also without the wisdom to understand the vastly varying degrees of this disorder, and that each persons landscape, even if it sounds the same when reading it, is likely very different.

FF

We often forget and what new members don't know (surveying the landscape as waverider explains) is that each board here is goal oriented. Each board has a set of tools and lessons found on the right hand side of the board. Sometimes those lessons overlap, as in the case with the two boards in question here.

The first step on this board In Choosing a Path is Stop the bleeding-tips on how to immediately diffuse conflict. This works very well with step 2 Take a step backward. And so on...

Although there is never a guarantee (that would be impossible with all the variables), what new members need are strong seniors who embrace the clinical philosophies behind what is taught here. Seeing those tools and lessons in action can be inspiring. We do not promote stay at all costs, we do promote what the professionals recommend trying. It is no secret that it takes an emotionally strong individual to be able to step back out of the conflict emotionally and to apply what we learn here consistently.

Let's take FF as an example.  His default behavior is to stay with his wife.  He wants to Stay.  But as you pointed out, he will not, and should not, stay at all costs.  If that was the requirement for Staying, then the board would be empty.  I think FF demonstrates how to apply the tools in action, yet how also to question himself, to ensure that he is not falling into a trap of thinking he is always doing the right thing.  Even though his marriage is not doing so well right now, I think it is helpful for new members to read, since chances are they are having problems right now, or they would not have posted in the first place.

My guess is that most senior members who are having success in their marriages right now, don't post much on the Staying board.  People post when they are having problems.  So my guess is that this is resulting in far fewer senior member posts on the Staying board, and as a result, fewer viewership on the Staying board, which means less coaching for new members on Staying.

Here's a question for the moderators. Why is it that you cannot get to this board without signing in? Sometimes I have very little alone time and I like to take a quick look at the staying and deciding boards. When my husband might walk into the room unexpectedly, having to sign in adds a whole extra layer of caution. Would you consider allowing us to look at the deciding board without a sign in?

Personal growth, and relationship growth is a constant thing. Over a long time, all couples will likely have relatively stable times, and also times of change. Emotionally mature and healthy people will react and respond to these changes, but in an emotionally healthy way. People, and couples with BPD can have the same changes, but respond differently.

It is possible that a relationship can have a period of stability, and then, like in FF case, become a rocky road for a while. Where that leads to isn't entirely known- either another period of stability or not, and the posts can reflect that period of instability.

IMHO, there are members who can coach each other. We are not all on the same paths and not all having conflict/stability at the same time.

I think families and couples with a BPD member have similar life events- the joys, the stresses, but the response to them can be a challenge. It would be during these times that they would likely post, however, other posters may be able to help them too.

Yes, this can happen for sure. Totally see that.

A newbie also runs the risk of potentially being so attached to the idea of staying on the staying board that it influences them to stay longer than they might otherwise. I'm not sure the board can fix or control for all of those possibilities, either way,  as no system is perfect.

Maybe the fact that the other boards that a person gets "bumped" to are physically below the staying board makes it feel like a demotion. Maybe it's the wording "bumped." I doNt know. There's something about it that just feels like a demotion, or a failing, almost like there is shame attached to it. I'm speaking purely for myself right now. When your relationship fails or is failing, it mirrors that experience to be bumped down to another board. It's like a fall downward.  it's certainly not a move up! I don't know, that's my stuff coming up. I'm not sure that can be fixed or needs to be fixed.  some shame comes up for me about not being on the staying board. Some shame inside myself gets activated. I don't think the board can fix that for me, it's pretty much my internal experience and mine to work with.

I do like the Deciding or Conflicted board and other new boards recently created,  that reflect more nuanced stages. They somehow feel more under the umbrella of staying.

I think you're onto something. You describe feelings of a personal failure. We want to look at this instead as what we can do to help each other avoid a relationship failure, if possible. 

A different way to look at board choices that might be helpful is "what skills (tools/lessons) do I (or any member) need right now/today?"

Staff involvement has everything to do with  bpdfamily Mission (https://bpdfamily.com/about)

Agreed that is why senior members need to be on the ball and not in effect helping the struggling member from validating the invalid. To me this would come in the form, not as a run message, but more of like asking a member to self reflect exactly as to why they are staying and if on balance why it feels like the only option.

You can choose to stay signed in permanently, but that could compromise your security is someone opens the page from your computer. If you are using in cognito browser it probably signs you out when you close it.

Boards that you sign into, on any forum I believe, stops them from opening up in a google search, like a firewall if you like. ie you have to be a signed in member to view

I guess thats one of the things we are teaching here, see reality for what it is and dont take all actions personally.

A move to the undecided boards means that member is not having to justify their stance and having to defend why they are not trying improve and maybe even accused of being stubborn. ie the debates can be more balanced in the respect that 'run" advise is not moderated out the same

What I meant to say is that I can access the Staying board without logging in, but that's not true of the Deciding board. Is there a reason for this?

Does it still happen? It was like that for me, too, until they recently changed the name of the Undecided board to Deciding or Conflicted. I couldn't see the Undecided board before unless I was logged in, but I can see the Deciding or Conflicted board without logging in.

Maybe ask the question in the Technical assistance board?

All I can say is I really appreciate the addition of the word conflicted to the description as that fits me to a T as I am religiously/morally/ethically  conflicted about my relationship. Thank you for the update.

Thanks. I now realize I can get there from the pulldown menu at the top of the main page. However the list of boards at the bottom of that same page does not show the Deciding board yet.