Improving board posts being moved to the Undecided board

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi FF, just cuious.  Most of your posts now start in the Staying board, but are then moved to the Undecided board.  :)oes that mean you are undecided on whether you are undecided?  

[Fian]

Hi FF, just cuious.  Most of your posts now start in the Staying board, but are then moved to the Undecided board.  :)oes that mean you are undecided on whether you are undecided?  

[formflier]

Hi FF, just cuious.  Most of your posts now start in the Staying board, but are then moved to the Undecided board.  :)oes that mean you are undecided on whether you are undecided?  

I think the mods have moved some over based on the nature of the discussions.

I'm a stayer, but will not stay at all costs.

Hehe, will have to think about my "decisions" more,

FF

[unicorn2014]

Hi FF, did you switch boards?

[formflier]

Hi FF, did you switch boards?

No.  I'm still a stayer.  I think the mods think some of the discussion is better suited for Undecided. 

FF

[Fian]

My 2 cents is that mods should be careful about moving threads between boards.  I think a lot of people (myself included) pick the Staying board because they don't want to get advice that they should leave the relationship.  I know I tailor my advice based on the board that I see a thread.

[formflier]

 I would rather they don't get moved, but it's not something I get worked up about.

Listen, you guys know me pretty good.  Chances that I will leave or stay in a r/s based on what someone is telling me on the boards is pretty low.  

Still, I know the feeling and the advice can be different from a stayer that is interested in long term r/s success, vice someone that is looking to make life easier on someone very quickly. (cut and run)

My worst concern about being on undecided is that many of the people that read and advise might miss it.  I have had a pretty good amount of people following me over here, so that concern may be a bit unfounded.

Oh, last few days have been tolerable.  Been trying to focus on my reading and just do my thing.

Saturday she did a powerplay thing about going ice skating.  I could come if I want, but there were no other options.

FF

[chump]

I would rather they don't get moved, but it's not something I get worked up about.

Listen... you guys know me pretty good.  Chances that I will leave or stay in a r/s based on what someone is telling me on the boards is pretty low.  

Good for you FF, and as usual what a great attitude. I'll admit I felt a little shock when the first post got moved over. If there's anyone who embodies a "stayer," both in your own marriage, and for all the folks on that board looking for support and feedback, it's you.

Having said that, if you're okay with it, I'm okay with it.

Chump

[formflier]

 Thanks chump.

Not sure if this is a good place for a mod to jump in and perhaps explain or point out reasoning.

I'm a stayer, but made several comments that I would not stay at all costs.  There are some abusive behaviors that if they continue at an unacceptable level, I would separate, divorce or otherwise use some sort of boundary to separate myself from that activity.

My Achilles heal is sleep.  The standard advice is to go sleep somewhere else.  That doesn't work for me.


FF

[chump]

Yeah, I'm a "stayer" but my ex left almost two years ago. The relationship didn't survive healthy boundary setting. I still believe in doing whatever is possible to have a healthy(ish) relationship with someone you love who happens to suffer from mental illness, for me love is a big thing, it's worth fighting for, but not at any cost. That doesn't include losing yourself, forgetting your values, or accepting/allowing abuse.

I still come to the "staying" boards to learn, be inspired, improve my relationship skills, etc. There are folks like you on there that I believe are genuinely heroic, in the best sense of the word, modelling how powerful a force love can be.

Chump.

[formflier]

 

Fian,

You (we) are now famous.  We have our own thread.

One thought.  My attitude has shifted a bit and that may have contributed to the shift over (I'm speculating about reasons for the shift, so if Mods want to clarify, ).

For a long time I was "doing what is best" for my wife by following the rules and all of that.  I still reference the rules and I realize that when I violate them, I will likely pay a price in the r/s.  There are few free decisions in life,

For instance, defending my ability to sleep where I need to sleep has obviously had a cost.  It appears to have worked, again, and while I'm not "happy" that I had to pay that cost, I did what I needed to do.

My wife and I had a great period of r/s improvement (from my point of view, I'm still waiting for counseling to hear her point of view).  I believe that I have a much better idea in my head (thinking) and in my heart (emotions) about what a healthy r/s looks and feels like.  I realize that it is likely there are no perfect r/s's out there and I have no cloudy vision that predicts I will one day have a "healthy" r/s with my wife.  However, I am not going back (and staying ) with the level of dysfunction and unhealthy behavior on display since January 8, 2016. 

That was the day I got in trouble for taking my college kids out to lunch while my wife worked.  She ordered kids into van and went to dinner without me, making a big deal that I was not invited.  Later that nigh she woke me up with TV, I asked for relief so I could sleep.  She clearly said "No".  When I asked for a conversation she glared at me.

Since then there have been sporadic periods of good r/s, but by and large she has been a nasty woman since then.

Perhaps that attitude is not the best to have on the staying board.  I really do want to stay, I do, but I seem to have a longer list of conditions (boundaries).

My .02 cents for now.

Open to thoughts and I appreciate this thread.

FF

[Daniell85]

My thread was moved, too. I am a stayer. Literally in the last few months I have felt burnt out, and have felt really stuck. I have been mainly in a state of disheartenment and not knowing what to do anymore.

It's really easy for me to be talked into hopelessness and deep depression over my relationship. I love my boyfriend. Very much so. I have been trying to learn better ways of handling things.

Undecided board can be a bit of a harsh place for someone who wants to stay.

[Fian]

My thinking is that you should get to choose which board to post in.  If you want Staying advice, you post to Staying board.  If you are open to "get out as fast as you can" advice, then you post on the undecided board.  I understand that mods do need to move threads around that are obviously in the wrong place, I just think they need to be more careful about moving threads between Staying and Undecided.

[empath]

My threads have been moved from here to staying. I have been really undecided for about a year after a couple of physical type abuse incidents; that is a line that defines me. There has to be significant change for me to be able to stay well, including things that trigger my husband's abandonment fears. He has gotten a bit better about some of the abusive behaviors,  but others continue.  

[sweetheart]

My thinking is that you should get to choose which board to post in.  If you want Staying advice, you post to Staying board.  If you are open to "get out as fast as you can" advice, then you post on the undecided board.  I understand that mods do need to move threads around that are obviously in the wrong place, I just think they need to be more careful about moving threads between Staying and Undecided.

It is very important that the individual gets to choose, and they do.

However sometimes the actions and decisions made in the relationship, toward the pwBPD are not improving the overall relationship. The OP may not be able to see this as they are often inside a situation reacting. The move between boards can often help widen the parameters of emotional exploration and increase awareness of behaviours that are not helpful to the overall situation.

Sometimes even after a long time on Staying it becomes clear that despite guidance and support around how to improve the relationship that this is not happening. The person can be stuck in entrenched patterns of responding that are escalating conflict not diffusing it.

What I might be inclined to do if my posts were moved between boards is ask myself what am I doing that is causing this? How can I do things differently to improve the relationship?

Perhaps ask those responding to your thread for constructive feedback on the move and what they think might be happening.

Sometimes when we are upset we revert back to old ways of coping and loose our way. Changing boards can be a way of shining a light on what is happening in a way that helps us process the situation with more clarity.

[Fian]

It is very important that the individual gets to choose, and they do.

However sometimes the actions and decisions made in the relationship, toward the pwBPD are not improving the overall relationship. The OP may not be able to see this as they are often inside a situation reacting. The move between boards can often help widen the parameters of emotional exploration and increase awareness of behaviours that are not helpful to the overall situation.

From my point of view, I may not have posted at all if I thought the advice I was going to get was to leave.  For board regulars, it probably doesn't matter as much, but for newbies it may be intimidating.

Of course, there is also the issue for newbies that they can't find the thread that they created.  That can also create challenges for regulars that have to hunt to find out the latest on a particular person.  I think the mods need to dial back the thread moving a bit.

[Sunfl0wer]

So, I am interested in what comes about in this thread.  I have seen other posts get moved, or split, including my own and I was not so thrilled about it.  (I find it triggering to my PTSD to have my words moved and an original thread altered.  It is disorienting to me, and makes me question myself and my memory.)

I was directed to deal with such issues of thread split and moves by using 'report' features of the site.  Therefore I'm surprised this thread was split to be open discussion?

I had a few differing thoughts about it, but rather than speculate, it would be nice to hear directly why FF post was moved.  Maybe this is personal and addressed in PM, not this thread, or maybe not addressed directly at all... .But anyway... .Since this thread is here for all, I'll ramble some of my thoughts... .

Where are the descriptions on "Who should post here?"  Was that moved? Removed? Or I just can't find it?

I did see FF set some boundaries around his sleep issue.  I also noticed he was not flexible about compromising in regards to this.  If he was moved to undecided for this, I feel concerned because the issue was not exactly of 'sleep,' but IMHO rather about FFW being abusive and him setting a boundary around abuse.  If he was expected to compromise around abuse... .hence moved... .that would be crummy.  Yes... .all speculation on my part.  Just one of several random thoughts I have had. 

IMHO again... .if a person is using terminology such as 'sleep hygiene' and demo's clear understanding about his needs and disabilities and expresses many alternatives tried and not successful... .then it is not for me to judge that 'they are not trying enough.' Especially when the person demo's flexibility of mind/workability/compromise/open to considering other perspectives in the majority of all other areas brought to the board.

However, I did consider that maybe when there is an element of abuse acknowledged, that posts get moved in order to open up the posters mind to 'undecided' thoughts as their reality is such that they would benefit from some 'undecided' perspectives until threats of abuse are no longer a threat to the relationship.

Of course... .endless speculations exist out there... .and a few other came to mind.  However, I did think it important to bring up the abuse issue in case it was on someone else mind besides me. _{(And I am curious if there is an explanation provided here that helps me resolve this in my mind with my past posts)}

[sweetheart]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56291.0

Above are the Undecided guidelines on who should post here and below are the guidelines for Improving,

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56303.0


Sunflower makes an important point in saying that the OP can ask the mods why the post was moved when it occurs.

[formflier]

 

Hey.  Just so everyone knows.  I was asked and told staff I didn't mind.  So I didn't fight it, but didn't promote the move either.

I've asked staff if they care if the exact PMs are posted here, but I can assure you the exact words are pretty boring, nothing salacious.

I'm also fine if there is some discussion of my "inflexibility" or departure from rules and that kind of thing.  My heart wants to stay, but I have made some decisions about what I will support with rules and such, and there is other bad behavior my wife may choose, and I will leave her to feel the consequences or be invalidated.

I won't persecute her but will not do anything to lessen her pain.  I'm not a repairman, I'm a husband.  She likely has a hard road to walk and some of her choices may make it harder. 

Looking forward to more discussion.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

FF:

Were you inflexible in anything beside setting boundaries around abuse?

Did you veer away from 'the rules?'  How so?

_{I wonder if I am not seeing something here.  I realize the point is to challenge one another and not validate the invalid... .however, I feel like I am missing something... .not trying to blindly validate you either.}

Sweetheart:

What I might be inclined to do if my posts were moved between boards is ask myself what am I doing that is causing this?

FF: What do you think you did to cause the move?

_{Obviously, feel free to disregard if it is not my business, as you are clearly not having issue to be resolved with this one.}

[Skip]

Sunflower makes an important point in saying that the OP can ask the mods why the post was moved when it occurs.

Hi guys.

We split this topic out to explain what is going on in general terms.  

sweetheart and sunflower are correct to say that for anyone being moved, they should go to the guidlines and select Clarification | Appeal | Reinstatement | Technical Problem (click here) Most who have been moved have been involved in a staff dialog.

Why are threads moved? It the macro sense, all of the messageboards here will naturally devolve into a BPD bashing/blaming format if the staff and senior members do not have clear board values, rules, and boundaries and enforce them. We are who we are because we vigorously protect our board missions. "Improving" is our highest level board.

• I think we all see the wisdom in this when the members saying "run!" are relocated away from the Improving board. This message is a significant threat to the board and the shear volume of members that would post it, if allowed, would over run the board in no time. These members are justified in their feelings and we have a place for these members to express it (The Detaching Board).

• There is a second common threat - triangulation. Triangulation is the second greatest threat to the "Improving Board". It generally manifests as posters looking for members to validate their position in couples disputes. The outcome is to generally make matter worse - this dynamic polarizes the couple and expands or entrenches the couples dispute. There is good information here on this dynamic: triangulation  Going through phases of this is often part of the process - we can't deny that - we have a place for these members to express it (The Undecided Board).

• There is a third common threat - "boundary beaters" - members that cloak fighting in terms of "healthy boundaries".  Historically, our most "abusive" stayers have done what they have done in the name of "boundaries".  For example, we had one member abandon their partner who was checked into admitted into the hospital on an emergency basis for a double hip transplant - our member used this opportunity to lock her partner out, put his belongings in storage, and date someone in her office, as our members validated her. This is a good article on values/boundaries here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Does one "off topic"  thread get you moved? No. The moves typically come after an extended period of off topic threads and review by the four or more moderators. Most often there is an attempt by senior members to coach on-board and staff may be involved in off-board coaching.  Sometimes, there is no-offline coaching because it is recognized that the member is committed to their position at the time and the move is to give them space to work it out.

Isn't this harmful to newbies? No. The staff and senior members are all are of the "mentor" model. In this model, newbies get a wide berth to release pain and frustrations - flip around a bit for their first 10 - 25 posts -  while senior members are held to a higher standard of knowledge and emotional intelligence and balance. Senior members on "Improving" and "Parenting a Son or Daughter Suffering from BPD" and "Family law, divorce, and custody" are held to pretty high standards.

I hope this helps and I hope everyone can accept that this is just part of the process for all of us.

Skip

[formflier]

Hey guys, I checked with Skip to make sure this was ok.   Basically, I got a PM below

ff real name,

Do you mind if we shift you over to the "Undecided Board" - the nature of you discussion are more consistent with that board.

Skip

And I sent the following reply.  After that it looks like my posts are being put on undecided. 

If you think that is best, I am ok with it.  My heart and my goal is to stay and preserve the r/s, however I am quite clear that there are certain things that are going on that I will not continue the r/s in it's current form.

Hope you are doing well.  While I am sad about the current turn of events, fear doesn't seem to be around much.

(ff real name)

[Sunfl0wer]

I find it interesting... .

Thank you for allowing this thread and taking the time to both explain and post links to what guides the mods on this site.  It was helpful to read and review all.

In the spirit of the purpose of the site... .

It is only fitting that I look inward to think about what bothers me about this kind of thing to see what I need to address.  .

_{(And come up with my own thread to address it)}

I certainly had a handful of random angles that ran quickly through my mind.   

So it is kinda funny to see such a simple sentence:

ff real name,

Do you mind if we shift you over to the "Undecided Board" - the nature of you discussion are more consistent with that board.

Skip

I guess sometimes things are as simple as that, maybe.

[sweetheart]

I certainly had a handful of random angles that ran quickly through my mind.  

So it is kinda funny to see such a simple sentence:

ff real name,

Do you mind if we shift you over to the "Undecided Board" - the nature of you discussion are more consistent with that board.

Skip

I guess sometimes things are as simple as that, maybe.

In the words of the great man himself ( IMO  )

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Sigmund Freud  

[waverider]

Improving is about rebuilding and developing our path forward, often members get to a stage were they have rebuilt as much as they are willing to and have drawn a line as to where they are at. It is then over to the pwBPD to either live with it or the RS ends.

This is not failure but simply that at this stage a stand has been taken. The member has taken time out from improving/adapting, this may be permanent or temporary, at this stage members may be in the undecided mindset by way of "the balls in their court stance'.

Moving to undecided is as much about not potentially provoking new members on the Improving Board into making a "stand" before they have fully explored their options, as it is about that OPs individual circumstances.

Members who have adopted a strong stand develop influence, as most members are here hoping to find strength, but this needs to be developed in due course and not by emulation or assimilation. Left unchecked it can gather momentum and skew the direction of the board.

Similarly members who are stuck in 'as good as it gets' mode, and not actively pursuing to improve their lot tend to set a hopeless tone for new members and hence will be moved also.

The message aim is advancement to thriving, rather than surviving or entrenchment

[unicorn2014]

Hi FF, did you switch boards?

No.  I'm still a stayer.  I think the mods think some of the discussion is better suited for Undecided.  

FF

Just so everyone knows I don't get run advice here. I'm undecided because my partner is still married and I will stay undecided until I either run out of patience or he gets divorced. Not everyone on the undecided board is looking for help to get out of their relationship. I'm certainly not. I'm trying to stay in it as long as I can in its current condition.

[formflier]

Moving to undecided is as much about not potentially provoking new members on the Improving Board into making a "stand" before they have fully explored their options, as it is about that OPs individual circumstances.

I think this thought is critical.  I would not have been in shape to be in this position even a year ago. 

I also don't want to be so bold to say what kind of shape I will be in a year from now.  Although my goal is that I will be emotionally and physically healthier and will be taking continued steps in that direction.  My hope is I will be doing that with my wife.

Nothing in this post from me should be taken to say, "I've learned it all".  In many respects I am humbled by how much I don't know and places I have growth to do.

Validation is one of them.  Most likely will be a years long process to get it to become second nature.

As I considered what posture I would assume in response to my wife's latest "episodes", I did consider areas that I am lacking. 

While validation is usually a good thing, I don't see me validating my way out of "I control this house and if you want to sleep, go somehwere else".

There was another comment in here about "putting the ball back in the pwBPDs court", or something to that effect.

That is pretty close to where I am at.  I do want to listen to what she has to say in counseling.  I will be prepared and try to be open minded.  Not all her stuff is without basis in fact. 

If she truly is settling in for a stance of "I run the show and you do what you are told, " that his her choice.  I'm not going to argue with her about it, but I won't remain in the r/s if that attitude persists.

I will make allowances for what she says in a regulated state and a dysregulated state.  It will be up to her if she wants to face those differences or not.

FF

[babyducks]

sweetheart provided the links but here are some quick cut and pastes:

from the Improving board these are some of the guidelines/objectives 

The approach is four-fold: 1) to understand the fundamental struggles of a person with BPD and the challenges that this disorder brings to a relationship; 2) to understand our role in the relationship problems;  3) to learn tools and techniques to help in day to day interactions; and  4) to learn healthy and constructive ways to develop ourselves outside of the relationship.

Additional Guidelines for this Board: Please read the community guidelines (see link at the bottom of every thread). The following guidelines are also in effect for this board:

•Please do not urge participants to exit their relationship. Members post here to find solutions to difficult relationships. Please allow them the opportunity.

•Please do not use this board as a place to complain about your partner without seeking constructive relationship advice.  We are here to find solutions.  It is a given that  our partners are difficult.

•We are not victims and this board is not about right and wrong. Please do not  take sides in couples disputes or seek to have other members agree, support or defend your position in your relationship disputes.  This will only serve to polarize matters in your real life and make resolution further out of reach

from the undecided board these are some of the guidelines/objectives

• To learn and apply communications tools that may help ease the immediate conflict.
  
  



• To divest yourself form the drama and focus on understanding what is happening in your life.
  
  

• To examine your role in the relationship difficulties - our partners have issues but we often contribute to the relationship problems.
  
  



• To asses your partner's emotional health (as a partner) and understand what BPD is all about

Deciding on the location of posts extends far, far beyond the binary subset of Staying/Undecided.  These are complicated and many faceted relationships.   It's completely possible to be committed to staying in the relationship but undecided about how much (more) of yourself to invest knowing the requirements and sacrifices a BPD relationship requires.   The best place to sort out that kind of decision is here, where the tools and lessons built into the side bar address those concerns.

Improving is about rebuilding and developing our path forward,

When a relationship is not Improving, and there is no immediate path forward, regardless of the reason the Improving Board is not the place to do triage because of the reasons that were mentioned upstream. 

[formflier]

When a relationship is not Improving, and there is no immediate path forward, regardless of the reason the Improving Board is not the place to do triage because of the reasons that were mentioned upstream. 

This is huge point.  In large part due to the advice and counsel I got on staying, our r/s made great and wonderful strides.

To me, it seems that my wife has gone back to the days of old (in many ways).  I'm not going back.

There is, sort of an immediate path forward, but it involves waiting until we get in the counseling room, the only place she claims she can discuss this.   Whatever "this" is.

I have made a choice to wait on this.  I imagine it will be week or two until we get a firm date.  We are on waitlist.

For me the path forward looks like listening in counseling to the r/s she is offering.  I will explain the r/s I am offering.

If she is interested in pursuing the r/s I am offering I will tolerate some debate about events and motivations, but press quickly for solutions on how to get to the future.

If she has no interest in the r/s I am able to offer.  Not much more to talk about.

Note:  It will be no shock to her what I am able to offer.  Has been discussed before and agreed to, committed to and all that. 

The basic communication is that I have picked and broad direction for my life and I hope she will be coming with me, but she is free to choose how she lives her life.  I don't want her to come with me if it is not her choice.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Thank you baby ducks that's why I am here as my relationship is breaking down.

[MaybeSo]

I think this thread has reinforced the reasons why the site has different boards and why some posts are moved.

On a purely personal note, I can share my experience with being moved from Staying to Undecided.  My partner at the time went into a serious depressive/dysregulated episode early in the summer after we had lived t/g with the most stability ever for about 2 years.  He announced he had lost all feeling for me and didn't want to live with me anymore.  It was his home.  I hung on for three weeks (while searching for a place to stay just in case I couldn't salvage this and posting on Staying to explore how I wanted to take care of myself) and continuing to work full-time.  At the end of three weeks I had found a cottage that was available to me and my ex had softened but only to the point where he offered to me that I could stay as a roommate if I wanted with the couch to sleep on.  I had been bumped from beloved life partner and co-parent to roommate on couch.   I declined and signed the lease for the cottage.  

I was a little in shock the whole three weeks, I felt like he had died and the person left was a complete stranger to me.  

My home on the board had been the staying board for a long time... .and when my thread got bumped to Undecided because I chose to move out... .it mirrored in a painful way what I was going through with my ex.  I got bumped again.  It was not a bad thing, but it did hurt.  It was done nicely and it made perfect sense.  But, in a crises... .it felt a little like I was being kicked out of the club I felt most at home with, at the same time I was being pushed out of my home.  That was hard.  I didn't say a thing about it at the time, but, I think I was surprised at how attached I had become to the staying board and what it represented to me emotionally.   If felt attached to the staying board.

The way I soothed myself at the time was to PM members of the Staying Board that I was close with so that I was able to maintain that connection to a degree.  I knew it didn't really mean I was being demoted or kicked out (intellectually) but it did sting emotionally.  Much later after being on Leaving for a while, I eventually started posting again on Staying, but as a person who had a lot of experience with "Staying" in the past.