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So, am I being oversensitive and "seeing" slights and disrespect from my wife where there are none?, or does it jump out at you guys too?

I'm coming a this from the point of view of "getting the log out of my own eye, before looking at the speck in hers"

I would claim that I don't have any dirt in my eye at all, (on this issue).  I want to get the right food and since my wife has declared that I have a role in this (that I have never had before) I would like to know what she believes her role is.  Basically, how does this work.?.how do we "fit" together on this one issue?

Note:  I've bought cat food, litter and done all kinds of stuff or the cat.  :)19 is off at college and I have become the caretaker that buys things and D10 is primary caregiver (food, water, scooping) but obviously doesn't go to the store to buy things.  

I don't think I have ever, and I mean EVER, bought 1 single thing for the dog.  Wife is primary care giver and keeps up with stuff.  I have taken dog to vet and bought meds, so perhaps I should back off a bit on my "ever" stance, but as far as going to a store, I'm 99.9% positive I've never bought anything or thought about it.  Wife just handled it




Me: Hey, I found two "cesar" classics meals for (dog name). Should I feed her 1 of those or go get more of what she had 7:31 AM

Me: is there a stash of that other food somewhere? 7:32 AM

ff wife: I already fed her one this morning because we're out of her other dog food that is something that needs to be kept an eye on yes by all means please go get her more of the other kind 7:55 AM

Me: do you remember the name of the other kind, where to go get it. Good to know you already fed her 7:56 AM

Me: I'll be out later this morning and will pick up whatever she needs, just need to know what that is 7:57 AM

ff wife : Yes as stay-at-home spouse you do need to know what that is and keep track of it I got it at Meijer 7:58 AM (ff comment, umm, is this speech making on her part?)

ff wife: Look in the trash can they come in little boxes of 3 or single cans 7:58 AM

ff wife: Best to keep to same brand 7:59 AM

Me: What is your role in this? 7:59 AM (given history of her doing almost everything, I am genuinely curious)

ff wife: What is yours apparently to point out my sin not your own 8:00 AM (anyone have any idea what sin I am pointing out?)

Me: I asked a question, I don't see a response to that question, can you answer it please? 8:01 AM

Me: I do not intend to point out anything, my intention is to ask a question about an area I don't understand, no other agenda 8:01 AM

ff wife: Do not judge others and you will not be judged the way you treat others is the way you will be treated the measured by which you judge and why worry about a speck in your brother's eye when you have a log in your own how can you think of saying to your friend let me help you get the speck out of your eye when you cannot see past the log in your own hypocrite first get rid of the log in your own eye then you can see to deal with the speck in your friends from memory 8:01 AM

ff wife: How does the bible verse memory for you 8:01 AM

Me: was memorizing that verse as well this morning 8:02 AM

ff wife: Good I'm proud of you 8:02 AM

Me: pretty good, I almost have it word for word, I have the gist of it, but it is still not smooth from memory 8:03 AM

Me: Hey, listen, looking for solution here, I have seen your statement of my role in dog food, I want to understand your view of your role in this. Can you help me with that and answer the question? 8:04 AM

ff wife: I am thankful to God that for whatever reason you were willing to get the kids to the to the church dinner Wednesday night and the the classes so that they can learn about God and hopefully live for him it was so nice not to have to be the one that does that it was so nice to be at my parents waiting for the girls to get home and come back to our house and find that you had taken them to church praise the Lord 8:04 AM (so, is this a compliment or a slam?  I'm seeing her making a point that I haven't been doing church stuff in the past, )

ff wife: Well done my good and faithful servant 8:04 AM  (umm, am I her servant?)

ff wife: Solution is look in the trash for the can get the name go to Meijer buy more 8:05 AM

ff wife: I believe in you you can do it 8:05 AM

Me: what is your role in this? 8:05 AM

Me: I believe in you to (ff wife name). I believe you can answer my question, I am not a mind reader and do not like to be put in the position of having to "fill in the blank" when I ask for your thoughts and don't get them, 8:07 AM

ff wife: Ask or demand asking is understanding that you may not get it demanding is saying that you will have an answer 8:07 AM  (what the heck?)


ff wife: My role this morning was to feed the dog to make sure she got fed today ff name you didn't even know what kind of dog food she ate or that she was out of food I didn't have much faith that you were feeding her especially after our conversation a couple days ago where you didn't even realize that we had to feed the dog everyday 8:08 AM  (my remembrance of that conversation was I had no idea that "I" had a role in feeding her everyday.  My wife and I figured out that she had went about 18 hours without being fed, poor thing)

Me: I don't understand that, not saying it is right or wrong, but that does not connect in any way with me, "demand asking" not sure 8:08 AM

ff wife: maybe you should pray about that so it does connect 8:09 AM

Me: I will, can you pray about answering a question that is asked? Seriously, please I am NOT a mind reader. Y 8:10 AM

Me: I didn't ask about your role this morning, 8:10 AM

ff wife: There's a big difference between asking and demanding asking implies that you understand that you may or may not be getting what you want demanding implies that you will have what you want or there will be consequences such as anger arguing Etc 8:11 AM

ff wife: So I will ask one more time are you asking or demanding an answer 8:11 AM

Me: Again, I promise I will pray, I swear, but I don't for the life of me see how that applies to caring for (ff dog name) 8:11 AM

Me: I am asking you, 8:12 AM

ff wife: I know you don't babe 8:12 AM

ff wife: Do you understand that I'm walking in my building to my job that I have right now to support our family can this wait can you wait 8:12 AM  (i'm seeing a speech here about her supporting family)

Me: I have seen a statement from you that shows you have a clear vision of my role in caring for  (buying dog food). My question was about your role in this, your vision of where you fit in 8:12 AM

ff wife: I guess that answers my question of whether or not you can wait have a good day 8:13 AM

Me: What I don't get, is how you can so clearly lay out your vision for what I do in the care of (ff dog name), yet after asking repeatedly for your thoughts about your role, I have zero idea of what you see your role being, zero, 8:14 AM

Me: I hope you have a good day as well, I'll do my best to help out in this situation, 8:16 AM


(end of texts)  Should I have offered to help out, when it is obvious she is not going to be part of a solution.  If she wants dog fed, she can buy it?  :)og is good until later today, after my wife has a chance to go to the store.

Or, do I peek in the trash and see if I can find a can?

Sigh,

FF

I honestly did not exactly follow it, however, what I glean is... .

Sounds like you contacted her legitimately looking to help feed dog.

She got defensive and started a defensive dance.

You tried to pin her down to admit who's role is it? You seemed to then switch from goal:feed dog.  To goal: make a point. (Engaged in dance)

She continued her defensive dance, went offensive, and with her God alliance... .well w/e.

Then you tried to revert to your original intent of simply wanting to feed dog.

I think next time... .

Stick with your goal.  Trying to feed the dog.

Don't try to: Make a point.

If you want to discuss who's role is it... .please don't do that at the time she has 'failed.'  Wait a day, then bring it up without reference to her 'fail.'

OK, I can see this point of view.  How do I get this information without "making a point". 

My goal was not to make a point, my goal is to get information that I don't have, in order to solve an issue.

I don't have enough information to "make a point" or "make a judgment" about failure.

I suppose I can see her "failure" to purchase more of the right kind of dog food, but, that is a trivial detail, I offered to help (did I invalidate her by offering to help?)

Big picture:  Do I just let her feed the dog?  Do I take the stance that if you want me to be involved, we have to communicate, ?

I'm fine with not being involved.

I'm fine with being involved and communicating, even if that means I do the lions share of work that I haven't done before.

I'm not fine with helping somebody that will not help you, help them. 

Hey, I'm trying to be open here, get guidance, is there a "log in my own eye" that I am not seeing?

FF

The very first text from your wife had some covert blaming and shaming: that is something that needs to be kept an eye on

You ask a simple question--brand and place to buy it. You're met with more B&S: as stay-at-home spouse you do need to know what that is and keep track of it

You're triggered, understandably, since you just want information, not a lecture. Then you up the ante: What is your role in this?

Next thing the conversation is off the rails, with Biblical references, contempt and irrelevancies. All you wanted was the damned brand of the dog food and where it could be purchased.

Holding her accountable for answering what exactly is her "role" seemed to offer her permission to go on the warpath.

Lol, it sounds like she messed up, and you are rubbing her nose in it.  You sound like you are blaming her while trying to help.

She both... .

A. Did not feed the dog

B. Did not even have correct food in house for the task, so had to improvise.

Any questions you asked... .

She would have had to admit those facts.

She was cornered.

I think you do not need to ask about who's job it is.  Likely she knows... .and would feed dog next day?

What would happen if you called her and... .

Hey, dog looks hungry, can you tell me what to do?

And then literally just follow directions. (Without asking about roles)

Get task accomplished for the moment.

Then END interaction.  (Ignore her dancing if it happens)

I don't see any stance needed.  Mistakes happen, sounds like she overlooked the dog.

If you only offered to help, (without the questioning) do you think that the next day she would feed the dog?  Or be intentionally passive aggressive and not?

My guess is if you acted 'dumb' like you didn't notice it was her mistake... .likely next day she would remember?  (Resuming her previously unspoken role?)

If not... .I still think bringing it up at a separate time is needed.  I'm kinda not sure why you questioned her because even if she did say... .oh no, I forgot to not only feed the dog, but buy the food... .next time I will take care of it.  Uh, she doesn't keep agreements, so why are you pinning her down to any anyway?

I'm always amazed at these long-winded text sermons from your wife while she is either on her way to work (is she texting and driving?) or while she's at work.  I barely had time to go to the bathroom when I was a teacher. 

Anyway, I think that asking her what role she played in this was probably not a good move.  I would keep any text communications with your wife very neutral and just not "go there" when she starts in with the blaming and contempt toward you.  I know we're supposed to validate pwBPD, but you can do that in person. 

 

A bit of clarity here, it is awesome to see other points of view.


She fed the dog this morning, but fed her the Cesar stuff.  I was asking if I should feed Cesar or go get something else and got the information that dog was fed (so, dog good "right now" but, the "right" food is not in the house).

Listen, I solve problems, make things work, like to look for solutions.  I really don't walk around "making judgments" about people, but I do make judgments about "will this work" or "can I do this?"  Is it likely the task will be successfully accomplished?  

I'm a very "task oriented" person.  ESTJ (uggg, there is the "judge" word), but seriously, judging whether someone is "bad" or not is not what I'm about.  

There is a clear statement from my wife (seemed clear to me) that it was my job to keep up with dog food.

Since I've never done that before, I need information so I can make the situation better, and not worse.

When I asked "what is your role", I thought I was being non-judgmental and "open", it's a bit of an open question.

What I was really curious about was "Is this a one time thing, or are were redefining roles "forever"?  "Have you brought this up before and I missed it?"

In reality, I had tons of questions, but I figured something "open" would allow her a chance to let me know what she was thinking about the "role" of buying dog food, which could lead into something bigger, or not.  :)epends where she goes with it, her choice, since I have no idea what is in her mind.

Hmm, so, I do see how that can look like "making a point", but from my view, that means you have to confuse a statement with a question and a question with a statement.

I'm still open here, keep it coming.

FF

Hey FF,

I am in agreement with the ideas of the other responses, they state it more eloquently than I would. I liked cats "you upping the ante" and then it got off the rails.

I know that would have been a trigger for my wife.

When I read all of your texts I was like where is this thing going? he only asked about feeding the dog.

What I was really curious about was "Is this a one time thing... .or are were redefining roles "forever"?  "Have you brought this up before and I missed it?"



My view on this would be let's see if this happens more than once. It sounds like you were trying to help and it just went off on a rabbit trail.

BF

In reality... .I had tons of questions... .but I figured something "open" would allow her a chance to let me know what she was thinking about the "role" of buying dog food... .which could lead into something bigger... .or not.  :)epends where she goes with it... .her choice... .since I have no idea what is in her mind.


How this got from dog food to Bible verses is due to it veering off course and triggering other issues. Then it just went off course as both of you went on to kitchen sinking coated in Biblical speech.

I have a huge respect for religion, but resentments and digs coated in Bible verses are still resentments. We all know that "Bless your heart" in Southern really means "p-ss off".

I also think that people can use Biblical speech to justify themselves, act with an air of authority, and coerce others to their point of view. People can use religion to get what they want from people and to justify their motives. The news has plenty of examples of this. So on a smaller scale, a disordered person can be disordered and also religious.

Two aspects of dysfunctional arguments include kitchen sinking ( throwing other issues in to the mess ) as well as tactics - bringing up issues to take the conversation off topic. This can happen when one is confronted. Your wife's comment about stay at home parent was kitchen sinking, but you responded with another kitchen sink statement- which was a direct confrontation. Then, she brought up the deflector - Bible statement, and you, FF, because you wish to share a religious life with your wife, took the bait . I truly mean no disrespect for Bible here, as I think discussing Bible is something good, but in the midst of bringing up issues, it can me misused. Taking the bait is a statement I use for myself when I am triggered to respond to a conversation by responding to off topic issues. This may help you recognize when bringing up Bible - which you are interested in is possibly leading you off topic. 

So, it starts with the dog food:


Me: Hey... .I found two "cesar" classics meals for (dog name). Should I feed her 1 of those or go get more of what she had 7:31 AM

Me: is there a stash of that other food somewhere? 7:32 AM

ff wife: I already fed her one this morning because we're out of her other dog food that is something that needs to be kept an eye on yes by all means please go get her more of the other kind 7:55 AM

Me: do you remember the name of the other kind... where to go get it. Good to know you already fed her 7:56 AM

Me: I'll be out later this morning and will pick up whatever she needs... .just need to know what that is 7:57 AM

Then on to the dig ( trigger)

ff wife : Yes as stay-at-home spouse you do need to know what that is and keep track of it I got it at Meijer 7:58 AM (ff comment... .umm... .is this speech making on her part?)

ff wife: Look in the trash can they come in little boxes of 3 or single cans 7:58 AM

ff wife: Best to keep to same brand 7:59 AM

And here you go off topic- no longer the dog food but a direct confrontation and a response to the dig. The conversation may have not gone here if you had chosen not to react to it.

Me: What is your role in this? 7:59 AM (given history of her doing almost everything... .I am genuinely curious)

ff wife: What is yours apparently to point out my sin not your own 8:00 AM (anyone have any idea what sin I am pointing out?)

Me: I asked a question... .I don't see a response to that question... .can you answer it please? 8:01 AM

Me: I do not intend to point out anything... .my intention is to ask a question about an area I don't understand... .no other agenda 8:01 AM

And she then uses the deflection.

ff wife: Do not judge others and you will not be judged the way you treat others is the way you will be treated the measured by which you judge and why worry about a speck in your brother's eye when you have a log in your own how can you think of saying to your friend let me help you get the speck out of your eye when you cannot see past the log in your own hypocrite first get rid of the log in your own eye then you can see to deal with the speck in your friends from memory 8:01 AM

and you bite the bait and now, from dog food to Bible


Me: was memorizing that verse as well this morning 8:02 AM

ff wife: Good I'm proud of you 8:02 AM

Me: pretty good... I almost have it word for word... .I have the gist of it... but it is still not smooth from memory 8:03 AM


You can't change her behavior, but your part of it is something to be aware of. Triggers and bait coated in Bible verses are still triggers and bait.


Stay on topic. There is a time for everything: a time for Bible, and a time  for dog food. Sometimes it is better to just discuss dog food.,

So, would a better response have been.

It's not my role to buy dog food, I'll leave that up to you.  And end the conversation?

I guess, what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around, is how a question to clarify an odd statement, is upping the ante.  I suppose I can see it when looking at it from other points of view (other than "solving" dog food).

If she is saying "you are responsible for buying all dog food from now on, "  My answer would be no, or "ok, I'll take the dog to a shelter"

There were lots of things that the odd statement (I guess we'll call it the original kitchen sinking) thing brought up.  I suppose I would be ok with just letting it go and let whatever happen to the dog.  I would rather not do it that way, but if that is the lesser of two evils.

Should I have refused to engage in any other conversation that dog food?  To me, that would have been "old" FF of a few months ago that would not communicate with his wife.  Basically, with communication so limited, have been texting with her a lot more.  I would rather not, but it's that, or basically zero communication.


FF

She threw Matthew 7:1 at you.

Hilarious.

I am actually triggered on her texts.

To validate you, she is being provocative for no reason except to put you down and demean you. Obviously her personal resentments are through the roof. Of course it's upsetting to be the constant recipient of that abusive behavior.

Personally I think she is more a narc than anything. Why else would she be so incredibly offended that you have gone from an executive in the military to an at home spouse who is holding down the domestic fort while still bringing in a solid income to support your family?

You said she wasn't like this before the last few years?

In the moment-


Me: Hey... .I found two "cesar" classics meals for (dog name). Should I feed her 1 of those or go get more of what she had 7:31 AM

Me: is there a stash of that other food somewhere? 7:32 AM

ff wife: I already fed her one this morning because we're out of her other dog food that is something that needs to be kept an eye on yes by all means please go get her more of the other kind 7:55 AM

Me: do you remember the name of the other kind... where to go get it. Good to know you already fed her 7:56 AM

Me: I'll be out later this morning and will pick up whatever she needs... .just need to know what that is 7:57

AM

You just offered to go get dog food

ff wife : Yes as stay-at-home spouse you do need to know what that is and keep track of it I got it at Meijer 7:58 AM (ff comment... .umm... .is this speech making on her part?)

Here is where she digs at you, starts the role thing

ff wife: Look in the trash can they come in little boxes of 3 or single cans 7:58 AM

ff wife: Best to keep to same brand 7:59 AM

Here is where you can avoid kitchen sinking

FF: OK thanks I will get some at the store.

Then LATER you can discuss who should get the dog food. This isn't necessarily being the compliant one. It is seeking a way to be more effective at discussing this, since you can see the Bible verse kitchen sink conversation did not address or resolve the issues.

Then, since you have a boundary on buying dog food, you can say later. "I do not want to be responsible for buying the dog food"  That may not go well, but if you can stay on topic you can make it clear you are not doing this. Then, it will be up to her to figure out how the dog is fed. But the idea was brought up when you offered to pick it up. If the dog is out of food, then you can decide to get some or not, but you are clear that it isn't going to be your regular role.

If this is the hill you wish to stand firm on, so be it, but another solution is to just pick up some of it if you are at the store. Understand that this issue is what you make of it.

Watch out for the triggers and bait, who come to you in sheep's clothing.  

First, here goes me defending her a bit.  We are memorizing Mat 7:1 as part of homework.  The obvious effort is to NOT judge our partners but to judge ourselves first.  So, there is some legitimacy to her having that on her mind. 

2009 was major tipping point for our family.  Natural disaster, out of home for 6 months.  Bad, bad.  Paranoia showed up, I invalidated the crap out of her because I "proved" myself innocent time and time again.  I was good at that,

FF

It's on her mind and she flings it at you when you text to ask about what dog food brand to buy?

2009 is 7 years.  

Sorry!  I did not digest the details well, and actually digested them incorrectly.

Yea, I too like Cats explanation.

I am not sure why it appears you started the conversation with one goal in mind, then switched.  

It appears you did so out of reacting... .maybe?

Does trying to delineate roles with wife usually prove beneficial for you?

(I worry that it actually invites more issue as she avoids being held to any standard and will feel stressed at you attempting to control.)

Is this an issue of needing to radically accept that your wife moves goal posts to suit her?  (Idk, just asking)

I would divorce the woman in a heartbeat.

As I am not you, FF, the moment she actually answered what the dog food brand was, mission accomplished, any other BS coming from her gets ignored and you just buy the dog food if you are feeling generous while you are out and about.

Sometimes, the thing is, you never know.  There are "good conversations" where a resolution comes and that resolution happens.

But, maybe 2/3rds bad and 1/3 good, maybe,

So, whether or not is is good for me, a good outcome would definitely be good for the dog, as in not go hungry or get the runs because of switching food.  

It's such a simple thing, buying dog food and feeding dog.  If I did not take the bait and ignored the switching roles thing, and I went on about my life thinking that dog is being fed, and my wife goes on about her life thinking dog is being fed,

To me, there seems to be more potential for bad outcome there,  There is so much about our lives that is complicated (all the kids and stuff) so the "who is doing what and where and when" conversations happen all the time, and in past few months go off the rails often, with lots of things being missed or messed up.

I'm certainly not going to run around in the background and clean up messes or "save" things.

Sigh,

FF

Note, she never gave me the brand.  I did go dumpster diving and found the right can. 

I offered, so I guess I'll follow through and get it.  Perhaps I should clarify my role this evening as "I have no role, good luck"

Probably better to say, "If you would like my help, her are the conditions under which I am willing, " and give her a choice.

FF

What about the choice to have the role discussion later ?

That isn't ignoring the role issue. It is looking for a better way/time/place to communicate.

Did this way (Kibbles and Bits of Bible and Bickering) work?

She doesn't have a list she keeps around of things that need bought for around the house?

I guess I'm not seeing why you want to pick this particular fight.

It sounds to me like the scenario is that your wife asks you to add picking up dog food to the shopping list. Is there a downside to this that I'm missing?

I think the role question was triggering for her.  She wants to say that she has no role (it is your job now), but doesn't want to say it, hence she gets defensive instead.  It seems to me that this conversation would be better handled in person, although I do understand that she tries to avoid having conversations.  Anyway, here are some other ways I think you could have tried to communicate:

1.  I will pick up the dog food today, but are you asking me to buy the dog food from now on?

Or, if you really don't want to buy the dog food:

2.  I will pick up the dog food this time, but you will be buying the food in the future like you used to, right?

FF, I understand your not wanting to go back to the old FF ( compliant) . It seems that you established a relationship with certain tools that worked for you for a while. Then, several things changed. There was a change in primary roles with your wife entering the workforce and you having more time at home ( this is independent of income - I know you have different sources- the point I am trying to make is there was a change). Then you moved (another change) to new stresses- FOO nearby. Older kids have gone off to college ( more change) Your wife is most likely done with childbearing ( more change)

Sometimes when things change, the relationship tools we have been using don't work as well. There was the old FF, the next stage FF. Now, a lot of things are going haywire- the in laws uninvited, the dog food, a whole lot of issues with each one being the hill you place the relationship on. Taking a step back- it is all a bunch of hills on a mountain of change.

Maybe there are new tools to learn?

I am not ignoring the issues with your wife and her FOO, but focusing on you, because you are the only part if this that you can control. There are issues to deal with, but a time and a place for that.

This sounds antagonistic

How about instead of stating your conditions, just behave them... .

Hey, I'm going to (grocery store name) later, ya mind telling me what dog food to buy?

So in above situation... .

It is if your condition is that she both

A. Tells u brand

B. Tells you before going to store

Make up your own conditions tho... .apply same idea?

Edit:

Wait, is this the first time you are hearing of her wanting you to buy dog food?


If so, that changes things.

Trying to answer several posts at once.

Yes, first time, ever, EVER, that I have been involved with the purchasing of dog food.  Sure, every once in a while I'll add water to the bowl or add some food.  But it has never been a duty that I was asked, or performed.  I jumped in and helped when and where I could, just to be helpful.

When I say "old FF", that was old as of a few months ago, really strong boundaries.  If you want to have a conversation with me, you will follow rules or have a conversation by yourself.

Likely old FF would have wished her a nice day after she "state" what was my job and left it to her to figure out how to feed the dog.

Since she obviously has things to say, I've been trying to loosen up more, text more, talk more late at night, listen, be present, etc etc.

There has been some success with this, enough for me to say I should still try.  I think I should still try to text with her,

But I really want to understand how and when things go "off the rails".  I just can't think fast enough to do it on the fly.

How do I go from "task oriented" to "r/s oriented". 

I wasn't trying to pick a fight, I want to feed the dog, I had two cans in my hand that were not the right food, not good to switch it.

From the time she starts responding, until it is off the rails, is 3-4 minutes,

I'm just not that nimble, at this point, to shift gears from task to "soothing" or BPDwhispering,

That's one of the reasons I moved away from texting and just said "effe it", let her be mad I won't text her, other than grocery stuff, lists and times, zero r/s issues at all.  It was a hard boundary that she hated, HATED,

Sigh,

Is this a sign I need to stop texting and go to less communication?

FF

Jumping in a little late but... .

I will say that I read  "What is your role in this?" as accusatory and I think your wife might have been taking it that way too.  Remember that written conversation and even phone conversation can loose something (facial expression, body language, voice inflection etc) in the translation. What you intend to communicate and what someone else receives might be two very different things, then throw in the extra sensitivity of someone with BPD you have an increased chance of miscommunication.

It might help to go back to "I" messages... .I haven't typically bought the dog food do you want me to start doing that or do you still want to do it?... .

Panda39

Speaking as a fellow Meyers Briggs Thinker, we miss subtle things when we communicate with Feelers, and especially with pwBPD. It's easier for me to see other people's communication issues than my own.

Asking and asking repeatedly about your wife's role may seem like a simple question to you, but I bet it came across as an aggressive assault to her.

I inadvertently do this all the time with my husband when I want a simple answer to a simple question and he will think I'm hammering him.

I'm thinking her suggestion for you to buy dog food, if it was first time you heard of this, was actually a reactive statement... .and not to be taken too seriously.  (Which isn't to say it won't get held over your head later.)

I am guessing that if this was always her role... .

Possibly your inquiry felt like you monitoring her ability to do her role.  

In a sense, you overstepped your bounds, by 'taking control' of monitoring the situation.

It may have felt insulting for her to experience you discussing it in a way as if to take that role from her.  So she thought, "Well heck, if he is not going to trust me to do it, and will supervise me anyway just to find fault, (notice when I have 'failed' at it) he may as well do more of it... .which means he can go supervise himself, not me."

FF, I may be mistaken, but didn't you call her to ask about the brand because you offered to pick up the dog food? If so, then she didn't ask or expect you to get it. The conversation started because you asked the brand.

You asked about texting and becoming a better BPD whisper, but I put the focus on you so you could see where your reacting to her, and getting into the Bible discussion took the conversation off course. If you only wanted to talk about dog food, then IMHO, I think it is important to understand where both people took it off course.

If not texting helps avoid kitchen sinking and diverting in such conversations, then it is good to not text, but the issue isn't the form of communication, but these two pitfalls .

I put the focus on you, because you can only affect your actions. Managing your wife is less effective.

I don't think he "went wrong" by texting and asking the brand of dog food.

There are two places where I think this went on tilt.

1. Bothering to offer to help in the first place when the dogs food has not been a chore FF normally takes care of. Possibly offended FF wife like he was "making" her feel like she wasn't doing her normal job of properly caring for the dog. As I remember, this dog was acquired by FF wife to replace the usual baby FF wife walked around with for so long. As such dog is a "baby" on an emotional level to FF wife and she is a good mom who cares for her baby, so how upsetting to basically be told ( FF wife perspective) that she is not taking good care of her baby.

2. Asking FF wife what her "role" is in caring for the dog. It's a clear role. The dog is FF Wife's baby and why is she being examined over what her role is in caring for her baby.


Tbh, FF, I think you had good intentions, at the same time, that turned out to be quicksand.

Sometimes in our efforts to help we end up accidentally stepping into someone else's perceived territory.

For my husband, specifically spelling out the roles/duties/responsibilities in an official manner hasn't worked. Even when it would be really helpful for me and for the family, he is resistant to doing that kind of thing -- makes him feel tied down and he can't 'go with his feelings'

I'm wondering if you're pet duties are mutually defined, as in, we sit down and decide together about who takes which responsibility or if they happen more organically?

I think her 'sin' that she refers to first is not getting the dog food. Yeah, it's not really a sin, but it is a duty that she had taken care of when she was a SAHM. I'm guessing the word 'role' triggered her to complaining about the 'roles' that you each were taking and led to the 'speeches' about how you each were failing at your proper 'roles'.

I think I remember you mentioning that the church/ biblical counseling that you were receiving taught husband headship in a marriage. Is that the case?

How it all started.

She is gone and I see empty food dish, not wanting to over or underfeed, I text about what I found and if there is proper food somewhere, the stuff she has been eating.

I figure that the texts I sent will get me answer about food and status of feeding.

She replied 20 or so minutes later.

I got the info I wanted, plus a whole lot more.

If I ignore parts of conversation, Then I am not listening to her.

I am trying to listen and participate as long as obvious abuse is not present.

Yep, this is baby replacement dog, so, yeah, sigh.

FF

Is it a good idea to point out a spouse's sin? Especially if that spouse is carrying inner shame and pain that is easily triggered?

If something like forgetting to buy dog food is a sin, then Hell is going to be very crowded and there will be hardly any humans anywhere else.

So perhaps when she made the "sin" comment, she was shame triggered. A possible response might be, oh honey I'm not sure what you are thinking when you say sin, but I had no intentions of saying that. I am not angry or upset"

Notwendy pointed it out here:


At this point, your wife had done two things... .

1. She had given you a triggering dig, and you bit and went off the rails... .with her... .the rest of the conversation.

2. She ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION ABOUT DOG FOOD.

Her answer was "I won't tell you the brand or don't remember. Look in the garbage."

The dog food problem was solved at this point. You had already decided/offered to get the dog food. She had already told you how to figure out what brand to get (dumpster diving)

You say you aren't nimble enough to shift gears. No true.

Right there, you shifted gears, from "task" to "challenging your wife on how she was speaking to you." (You say you weren't trying to pick a fight... .but that is exactly what you did in your next text message, no matter your intentions or your awareness of them.)

Perhaps you could have shifted gears to soothing or BPD whispering. (Perhaps there is something to validate in that statement, but I don't see anything easy that I would have tried)

Or you could have left the bait on the ground, and ended the conversation like this:

FF: Thanks, I'll check the trash and buy some more.

... .back to you... .what made you pick it up?

Hmm, well, if that was her answer, and I see that point of view.  I really do.  My answer would be to let her pick up more.  Hopefully I would have said it in nice way.

I see the point.

We had already had some issues with dog not being fed, I guess I should drop caring about it.  When she offered that my role was to worry about it (paraphrase), I erroneously thought it was time for discussion/clarity about it.

In reality, I should either have not answered at all or told her "no, that's not my role"  Then let her go all to pieces if she chooses.


Sigh, this makes my brain hurt and really gets mean leaning back towards my earlier stance of "I will text and talk to you if you do it properly"  Then just let her be pissed off that "I don't listen"

FF

www.divorcehelpforparents.com/dirty-fighting.html

FF- trying to look at your role. Sure there are issues with her, but seeing our role helps us take control of our reactions.

The first part was the trigger--the stay at home parent dig. FF responded to being triggered.

The next part- kitchen sinking, bringing up different issues- which veered the topic off the original subject. FF wife made a statement of high interest, high emotional investment - the bible passage they had been memorizing. Being emotionally invested and wanting to engage his wife in this manner- FF followed it.

Had she said something emotionally neutral- it would have not been as enticing.

I am not saying that she did this deliberately. We just know, over the years, what works for us in regards to our spouses, and we do what works. There are many reasons she may have brought this up. One is that she was being confronted and cornered in a way. She triggered FF, FF went back at her. Did this trigger some shame?

psBPD operate from a position of victim ( so do people when they are triggered) and lash out in self defense. She triggers FF, FF defends himself, she feels attacked.

A Bible quote may have been a deflective move, or a way of upholding herself- " see I am a good Christian wife " or whatever, it was some way to defend herself. FF, being that this is very meaningful to you- this was a big emotional hook. Yes, what she said is meaningful to you, but it was your reaction to this that continued the conversation off topic.

But we can't do anything about someone else's behavior. We can look at our own "hooks" or what baits us into these circular arguments. Honestly, they are about us. Our triggers are our own triggers. Had your wife said this to someone else, they may not have been triggered at all. The power to deal with these triggers and to recognize where we are emotionally hooked into these kinds of no- win discussions is with us.

I'm reminded of a sea shanty with a line about Liverpool guys being hard cases, thick in the arm and thick in the head  lol You are tough, and don't usually mind when I gently apply a 2x4 to insert a thought into your head... .I will tone things down if you think I'm overstepping... .


I don't think you were honest with yourself when you started texting her.

The "problem" which you asked your wife about (a dog that needed food) wasn't the one that was bugging you.

What was bugging you was your wife dropping the ball on caring for the dog, and leaving you to pick it up.

You probably didn't realize it at the time.

You probably thought you were trying to deal with the task at hand.

But you were in a mind set where you wanted to show your wife that she was dropping the ball, and you wanted her to acknowledge it, ask you to help and save her, apologize for it, promise to do better next time, and give you credit for jumping in like a knight in shining armor saving the day for the poor dog.

Does any of this ring true?

Does it explain why you were so eager to pick up the bait and go off to the races with her?

Perhaps, it is such an inconsequential thing, feeding the dog, and wanting it to go right. 

I can see where if I had been "stronger" or more firm about only discussing the topic at hand, that it wouldn't have gone awry.

The more I try to wrap my brain around this, the more I realize the "new FF" that tries to engage and listen on her terms, is not working out too good.

Perhaps I chalk it up to I tried.

Listen, I'm either blind as a bat to my own agendas (also read it as my own "sin" or I really am that simple of a guy.

For me, plan a couple tasks, do a couple tasks, admire that I had to figure some things out and I have an emotional "high" or "satisfaction"

I really miss being rural and having lots of animals to care for.  I do care about the dog, if it was up to me, lots of things would be done differently.  I don't think she is harming the animal but on the good better best scale, it's down at good. 

There was no talking that morning, no real opportunity, and reaching out via text (or perhaps email) is the only option.

Oddly enough, my wife has quit emailing me, about anything.  Not that we did much before.

Perhaps backing up to a bigger picture.  Should I be having these kinds of texting conversations with her, ?

FF

It is something new and difficult for you. Not how you were raised. Not how you succeeded in the Navy. It is going to take a bunch of miss-steps as you get better at it.

I'd suggest the "before you can make things better, you must stop making them worse" approach here:

Listening and engaging on her terms -- making things better.

Forcing the issue, trying to get her to engage on your terms -- making things worse.

The first step is seeing when you took the bait in the rear view mirror.

The next step is seeing that you took the bait... .and putting it down before things go too badly. [Think you are here today]

The next step will be seeing the bait before you pick it up.



The kind about dog food? Sure, texting is fine for that.

The kind about relationship issues roles, what you want and expect from her, or what she wants and expects from you?

NO, NO, NO, RUN AWAY!

OK, so, I can see the turning point, doesn't look like bait to me (at least the way I was thinking)

But, I can get to where I can believe it.

OK, so she tosses out bait, I decide to leave it,

Then what,

1.  I'll let you pick up the right food  (what I want to do)

2.  OK, I'll dumpster dive (just this once)

3.  Fess up that you made mistake by reaching out,

4.  Just stop texting, ignore.  (this seems bad)

FF

I don't think just stopping texting back is bad.  Any texting that gets into your relationship issues is never going to be good anyway.  I would keep texts with your wife very simple and only about logistical issues.  Short and to the point.  

I know that one of her big things is that "you must listen" when she has something to say.  Once her texts become bait or once the digs start,  game over.  Just stop.  You're pretty good at disengaging from her when she does this to you face to face.  It should be the same with texting.  

Two things that really disturb me:

1. YOur wife uses your children as a weapon against you.  This in itself is probably the biggest issue you are facing.  

2. You wife uses God and His word as a weapon against you.  She seems to believe that she has been appointed by God to prove how bad you are in comparison to herself.  This is as twisted as it gets, not to mention un-Biblical.  

The only good thing that could come out of this dog food texting episode is that you could show it to your MC (if your wife agrees) and ask for his input.  Part of me thinks have a written record of the way your wife thinks and the things she says could be a good thing, but even if she is confronted with it (not saying you should confront her) something tells me she would still deny that she said what she said. 

I know it's tempting to try to reason with your wife about various issues that come up, but she has disordered thinking and is paranoid PLUS she has great contempt for you AND feels she has God's blessing in painting you black.  So you're up against a lot and it just won't ever work.  

Keep texts simple and just "walk away" from them before they go south.  

Option #1 only works if you don't text her offering to buy dog food while you are out. If feeding the dog is her responsiblity, there was no need for you to be involved in the first place, and no reason to text her... .or in other words, it was a valid option before you sent that ship sailing off!

You chose option #2, right? I see it a generous and valid option. I'd just confirm you know what to get and will pick it up. Saying "just this once" is kinda provocative, and may not be needed.

I don't like option #3 at all.

Option #4 isn't great, but it would have been better than what you did.

Listen... I'm either blind as a bat to my own agendas (also read it as my own "sin" or I really am that simple of a guy.

I think it is hard for us to "see ourselves" and uncomfortable when people turn the mirror on us. For many of us, we are looking outward- at the significant other- when discussing issues.

I had counselors who listened to me, validated me, but not much changed. Now, I have a MC who uses an episode like this to point out my part in it. Yes, it is uncomfortable. But once I could see when I was triggered or took the bait, I began to see my part in these seemingly crazy discussions that involved going off topic and kitchen sinking.

It's an internal process. The focus isn't on what is said to me that triggers me as much as recognizing how I am feeling during the discussion. If I feel that I am becoming even a bit uncomfortable, I stop to think - I'm triggered by this, I need to take a time out. If a topic comes up that feels emotional, I think  " bait" and then the same response- not " I won't listen to you" but " I need a time out to get myself together".

Then, I also have to recognize when I am triggering, baiting or kitchen sinking.

It takes some practice, but this is actually a form of self care- taking a time out to calm down or re-gain composure during a discussion. It's not refusing to talk about something, but recognizing that, if I am not composed, the conversation isn't going to go well anyway.

If we see how another person is engaging in these behaviors- kitchen sinking, triggered, being triggered, it is because we have done it or are still doing it. When I read your conversation, it thought- oh yes, I have done this too. The triggers might be different ( because they are our own triggers) but the pattern is similar. Pointing out your part isn't discounting your wife's contributions, but the great thing about your part is that this is something you  have the ability to work on to lead to a change in these interactions for you.

I also agree with GK that it is the underlying issues/conflict/resentment that is fueling the emotions/motives in the conversation.

This isn't a major decision. If you get a few cans of the wrong dog food, the dog may be picky but he isn't going to starve. The resentments and feelings behind the conversation drove the importance of it.

 

So, as I was thinking about a response I was considering this thread and the one where I got good news and refused to be dragged down.

As I drank coffee this morning I was composing a response that went something like this:  That I was able to not be triggered during the "happy" incident because I recently new that she was on the warpath and I also recently new that I was happy and wanted to stay that way.  My post was going to be about paying more attention to her and her "shifts" of agenda so that "I" can keep her "BPDish" stuff at arms length.

As I read what notwendy wrote, I'm thinking that I need a new focus.  That somehow in my communication process I need to ask the question, and be very careful and deliberate about it, how did what I just read (assuming text), make me feel (or how do I feel about the subject in general).

If there is a happy or neutral thing, likely it is ok to let things keep going.

If it is a bad or unhappy thing, then likely I need to slow things down and be much more introspective before launching a response.  That I also need to be very deliberate about asking if this subject matter is or has been triggering for my wife and is there any evidence that she "is going there".

If we look at this from the "my wife is going to do what my wife is going to do" point of view and focus on me as the one that can make choices, then what I have written as my updated thinking is the best way to go.

I'm on my first cup of coffee, so feel free to tweak whatever if you think it needs tweaking.

Perhaps you guys can help me turn it into a mission statement for texting.  I get it lots of people may think that is "clunky" or "cumbersome", but if I see a text conversation developing, and I "strap on" my mission statement for that, vice thinking, "oh, I just want to feed the dog".  Likely a better outcome.

FF

It is a good start FF, but I will fine tune it a little. I think that you are looking at fine tuning your response in regards to how it will act on/control( in a sense) produce a certain response in your wife- positive vs negative, or not trigger her.

I will propose that you take the focus off her, and more on to you. Not because she isn't a contribution to the issues but for a couple of reasons: one is that you are the only person you are able to really change, so focusing attention on you is likely to give you results ( you are an action guy- so the effort on you is more likely to be effective at personal change).

If you are trying to compose a response that in any way modulates your wife's feelings, you are taking away her responsibility to deal with her own feelings and taking away her opportunity to learn to do this. Yes, she may pitch a fit, but eventually if you are not managing her feelings, then she may have to learn to do this to the extent that she can. Yes, she has a mental disability, but even so, she has a capacity that may not be realized if someone else is caretaking/controlling her emotions in some way.

So, two boxes. One is your stuff, one is her stuff ( or anyone else's- each has a box). Your triggers, feelings, what baits you is your stuff. Hands off her stuff- it is not yours to manage.

When you feel triggered/bait during a conversation, that isn't the time to formulate a calculated response that will result in the best reaction response from her. This may work in the military, but she isn't the other side. As far as feelings and triggers go, you are two separate boxes side by side and your box is the one you need to keep in order no matter what she does.

When you feel triggered/baited, it is your job to decide that you are not in the best condition to respond. This is because when the brain is aroused by emotions: anger, fear, irritation, and otherwise, these emotions flood your thinking center as the primitive fight/flight responses are activated. It means the conversation stops, because it isn't going to be productive and is likely to be circular, upsetting. It doesn't mean you are cruel and not willing to listen. It means "time out" and saying something like " Honey, I can't continue this right now because I am not in the best position to have a conversation. I hear your concerns and would like to discuss this when I am able to. "

The message is about you.

What if you accidentally trigger her? well that is her box. Triggers are individual. Stay out of there. She's an adult, and needs to deal with her own triggers/feelings.  But if you say something intentionally to trigger her, that is on you. Intentionally upsetting someone can require an apology.