Do these texts indicate she has other agendas need help sorting

[Daniell85]

I don't think he "went wrong" by texting and asking the brand of dog food.

There are two places where I think this went on tilt.

1. Bothering to offer to help in the first place when the dogs food has not been a chore FF normally takes care of. Possibly offended FF wife like he was "making" her feel like she wasn't doing her normal job of properly caring for the dog. As I remember, this dog was acquired by FF wife to replace the usual baby FF wife walked around with for so long. As such dog is a "baby" on an emotional level to FF wife and she is a good mom who cares for her baby, so how upsetting to basically be told ( FF wife perspective) that she is not taking good care of her baby.

2. Asking FF wife what her "role" is in caring for the dog. It's a clear role. The dog is FF Wife's baby and why is she being examined over what her role is in caring for her baby.


Tbh, FF, I think you had good intentions, at the same time, that turned out to be quicksand.

Sometimes in our efforts to help we end up accidentally stepping into someone else's perceived territory.

[empath]

For my husband, specifically spelling out the roles/duties/responsibilities in an official manner hasn't worked. Even when it would be really helpful for me and for the family, he is resistant to doing that kind of thing -- makes him feel tied down and he can't 'go with his feelings'

I'm wondering if you're pet duties are mutually defined, as in, we sit down and decide together about who takes which responsibility or if they happen more organically?

I think her 'sin' that she refers to first is not getting the dog food. Yeah, it's not really a sin, but it is a duty that she had taken care of when she was a SAHM. I'm guessing the word 'role' triggered her to complaining about the 'roles' that you each were taking and led to the 'speeches' about how you each were failing at your proper 'roles'.

I think I remember you mentioning that the church/ biblical counseling that you were receiving taught husband headship in a marriage. Is that the case?

[formflier]

How it all started.

She is gone and I see empty food dish, not wanting to over or underfeed, I text about what I found and if there is proper food somewhere, the stuff she has been eating.

I figure that the texts I sent will get me answer about food and status of feeding.

She replied 20 or so minutes later.

I got the info I wanted, plus a whole lot more.

If I ignore parts of conversation, Then I am not listening to her.

I am trying to listen and participate as long as obvious abuse is not present.

Yep, this is baby replacement dog, so, yeah, sigh.

FF

[Notwendy]

Is it a good idea to point out a spouse's sin? Especially if that spouse is carrying inner shame and pain that is easily triggered?

If something like forgetting to buy dog food is a sin, then Hell is going to be very crowded and there will be hardly any humans anywhere else.

So perhaps when she made the "sin" comment, she was shame triggered. A possible response might be, oh honey I'm not sure what you are thinking when you say sin, but I had no intentions of saying that. I am not angry or upset"

[Grey Kitty]

But I really want to understand how and when things go "off the rails".  I just can't think fast enough to do it on the fly.

How do I go from "task oriented" to "r/s oriented". 

I wasn't trying to pick a fight... .I want to feed the dog... .I had two cans in my hand that were not the right food... .not good to switch it.

From the time she starts responding... .until it is off the rails... .is 3-4 minutes... .

I'm just not that nimble... .at this point... to shift gears from task to "soothing" or BPDwhispering... .

Notwendy pointed it out here:

So, it starts with the dog food:

Me: Hey... .I found two "cesar" classics meals for (dog name). Should I feed her 1 of those or go get more of what she had 7:31 AM

Me: is there a stash of that other food somewhere? 7:32 AM

ff wife: I already fed her one this morning because we're out of her other dog food that is something that needs to be kept an eye on yes by all means please go get her more of the other kind 7:55 AM

Me: do you remember the name of the other kind... where to go get it. Good to know you already fed her 7:56 AM

Me: I'll be out later this morning and will pick up whatever she needs... .just need to know what that is 7:57 AM

Then on to the dig ( trigger)

ff wife : Yes as stay-at-home spouse you do need to know what that is and keep track of it I got it at Meijer 7:58 AM (ff comment... .umm... .is this speech making on her part?)

ff wife: Look in the trash can they come in little boxes of 3 or single cans 7:58 AM

ff wife: Best to keep to same brand 7:59 AM

At this point, your wife had done two things... .

1. She had given you a triggering dig, and you bit and went off the rails... .with her... .the rest of the conversation.

2. She ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION ABOUT DOG FOOD.

Her answer was "I won't tell you the brand or don't remember. Look in the garbage."

The dog food problem was solved at this point. You had already decided/offered to get the dog food. She had already told you how to figure out what brand to get (dumpster diving)

You say you aren't nimble enough to shift gears. No true.

Right there, you shifted gears, from "task" to "challenging your wife on how she was speaking to you." (You say you weren't trying to pick a fight... .but that is exactly what you did in your next text message, no matter your intentions or your awareness of them.)

Perhaps you could have shifted gears to soothing or BPD whispering. (Perhaps there is something to validate in that statement, but I don't see anything easy that I would have tried)

Or you could have left the bait on the ground, and ended the conversation like this:

FF: Thanks, I'll check the trash and buy some more.

... .back to you... .what made you pick it up?

[formflier]

, back to you, what made you pick it up?

Hmm, well, if that was her answer, and I see that point of view.  I really do.  My answer would be to let her pick up more.  Hopefully I would have said it in nice way.

I see the point.

We had already had some issues with dog not being fed, I guess I should drop caring about it.  When she offered that my role was to worry about it (paraphrase), I erroneously thought it was time for discussion/clarity about it.

In reality, I should either have not answered at all or told her "no, that's not my role"  Then let her go all to pieces if she chooses.


Sigh, this makes my brain hurt and really gets mean leaning back towards my earlier stance of "I will text and talk to you if you do it properly"  Then just let her be pissed off that "I don't listen"

FF

[Notwendy]

www.divorcehelpforparents.com/dirty-fighting.html

FF- trying to look at your role. Sure there are issues with her, but seeing our role helps us take control of our reactions.

The first part was the trigger--the stay at home parent dig. FF responded to being triggered.

The next part- kitchen sinking, bringing up different issues- which veered the topic off the original subject. FF wife made a statement of high interest, high emotional investment - the bible passage they had been memorizing. Being emotionally invested and wanting to engage his wife in this manner- FF followed it.

Had she said something emotionally neutral- it would have not been as enticing.

I am not saying that she did this deliberately. We just know, over the years, what works for us in regards to our spouses, and we do what works. There are many reasons she may have brought this up. One is that she was being confronted and cornered in a way. She triggered FF, FF went back at her. Did this trigger some shame?

psBPD operate from a position of victim ( so do people when they are triggered) and lash out in self defense. She triggers FF, FF defends himself, she feels attacked.

A Bible quote may have been a deflective move, or a way of upholding herself- " see I am a good Christian wife " or whatever, it was some way to defend herself. FF, being that this is very meaningful to you- this was a big emotional hook. Yes, what she said is meaningful to you, but it was your reaction to this that continued the conversation off topic.

But we can't do anything about someone else's behavior. We can look at our own "hooks" or what baits us into these circular arguments. Honestly, they are about us. Our triggers are our own triggers. Had your wife said this to someone else, they may not have been triggered at all. The power to deal with these triggers and to recognize where we are emotionally hooked into these kinds of no- win discussions is with us.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm reminded of a sea shanty with a line about Liverpool guys being hard cases, thick in the arm and thick in the head  You are tough, and don't usually mind when I gently apply a 2x4 to insert a thought into your head... .I will tone things down if you think I'm overstepping... .

We had already had some issues with dog not being fed, I guess I should drop caring about it.  When she offered that my role was to worry about it (paraphrase), I erroneously thought it was time for discussion/clarity about it.

I don't think you were honest with yourself when you started texting her.

The "problem" which you asked your wife about (a dog that needed food) wasn't the one that was bugging you.

What was bugging you was your wife dropping the ball on caring for the dog, and leaving you to pick it up.

You probably didn't realize it at the time.

You probably thought you were trying to deal with the task at hand.

But you were in a mind set where you wanted to show your wife that she was dropping the ball, and you wanted her to acknowledge it, ask you to help and save her, apologize for it, promise to do better next time, and give you credit for jumping in like a knight in shining armor saving the day for the poor dog.

Does any of this ring true?

Does it explain why you were so eager to pick up the bait and go off to the races with her?

[formflier]

Does any of this ring true?

Does it explain why you were so eager to pick up the bait and go off to the races with her?

Perhaps, it is such an inconsequential thing, feeding the dog, and wanting it to go right. 

I can see where if I had been "stronger" or more firm about only discussing the topic at hand, that it wouldn't have gone awry.

The more I try to wrap my brain around this, the more I realize the "new FF" that tries to engage and listen on her terms, is not working out too good.

Perhaps I chalk it up to I tried.

Listen, I'm either blind as a bat to my own agendas (also read it as my own "sin" or I really am that simple of a guy.

For me, plan a couple tasks, do a couple tasks, admire that I had to figure some things out and I have an emotional "high" or "satisfaction"

I really miss being rural and having lots of animals to care for.  I do care about the dog, if it was up to me, lots of things would be done differently.  I don't think she is harming the animal but on the good better best scale, it's down at good. 

There was no talking that morning, no real opportunity, and reaching out via text (or perhaps email) is the only option.

Oddly enough, my wife has quit emailing me, about anything.  Not that we did much before.

Perhaps backing up to a bigger picture.  Should I be having these kinds of texting conversations with her, ?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I can see where if I had been "stronger" or more firm about only discussing the topic at hand, that it wouldn't have gone awry.

The more I try to wrap my brain around this... .the more I realize the "new FF" that tries to engage and listen on her terms... .is not working out too good.

Perhaps I chalk it up to I tried.

It is something new and difficult for you. Not how you were raised. Not how you succeeded in the Navy. It is going to take a bunch of miss-steps as you get better at it.

I'd suggest the "before you can make things better, you must stop making them worse" approach here:

Listening and engaging on her terms -- making things better.

Forcing the issue, trying to get her to engage on your terms -- making things worse.

The first step is seeing when you took the bait in the rear view mirror.

The next step is seeing that you took the bait... .and putting it down before things go too badly. [Think you are here today]

The next step will be seeing the bait before you pick it up.

Perhaps backing up to a bigger picture.  Should I be having these kinds of texting conversations with her... .?

The kind about dog food? Sure, texting is fine for that.

The kind about relationship issues roles, what you want and expect from her, or what she wants and expects from you?

NO, NO, NO, RUN AWAY!

[formflier]

OK, so, I can see the turning point, doesn't look like bait to me (at least the way I was thinking)

But, I can get to where I can believe it.

OK, so she tosses out bait, I decide to leave it,

Then what,

1.  I'll let you pick up the right food  (what I want to do)

2.  OK, I'll dumpster dive (just this once)

3.  Fess up that you made mistake by reaching out,

4.  Just stop texting, ignore.  (this seems bad)

FF

[Verbena]

I don't think just stopping texting back is bad.  Any texting that gets into your relationship issues is never going to be good anyway.  I would keep texts with your wife very simple and only about logistical issues.  Short and to the point.  

I know that one of her big things is that "you must listen" when she has something to say.  Once her texts become bait or once the digs start,  game over.  Just stop.  You're pretty good at disengaging from her when she does this to you face to face.  It should be the same with texting.  

Two things that really disturb me:

1. YOur wife uses your children as a weapon against you.  This in itself is probably the biggest issue you are facing.  

2. You wife uses God and His word as a weapon against you.  She seems to believe that she has been appointed by God to prove how bad you are in comparison to herself.  This is as twisted as it gets, not to mention un-Biblical.  

The only good thing that could come out of this dog food texting episode is that you could show it to your MC (if your wife agrees) and ask for his input.  Part of me thinks have a written record of the way your wife thinks and the things she says could be a good thing, but even if she is confronted with it (not saying you should confront her) something tells me she would still deny that she said what she said. 

I know it's tempting to try to reason with your wife about various issues that come up, but she has disordered thinking and is paranoid PLUS she has great contempt for you AND feels she has God's blessing in painting you black.  So you're up against a lot and it just won't ever work.  

Keep texts simple and just "walk away" from them before they go south.  

[Grey Kitty]

OK... .so... .I can see the turning point... .doesn't look like bait to me (at least the way I was thinking)

But... .I can get to where I can believe it.

OK... so she tosses out bait... I decide to leave it...

Then what... .

1.  I'll let you pick up the right food  (what I want to do)

2.  OK... I'll dumpster dive (just this once)

3.  Fess up that you made mistake by reaching out... .

4.  Just stop texting... ignore.  (this seems bad)

Option #1 only works if you don't text her offering to buy dog food while you are out. If feeding the dog is her responsiblity, there was no need for you to be involved in the first place, and no reason to text her... .or in other words, it was a valid option before you sent that ship sailing off!

You chose option #2, right? I see it a generous and valid option. I'd just confirm you know what to get and will pick it up. Saying "just this once" is kinda provocative, and may not be needed.

I don't like option #3 at all.

Option #4 isn't great, but it would have been better than what you did.

[Notwendy]

Listen... I'm either blind as a bat to my own agendas (also read it as my own "sin" or I really am that simple of a guy.

I think it is hard for us to "see ourselves" and uncomfortable when people turn the mirror on us. For many of us, we are looking outward- at the significant other- when discussing issues.

I had counselors who listened to me, validated me, but not much changed. Now, I have a MC who uses an episode like this to point out my part in it. Yes, it is uncomfortable. But once I could see when I was triggered or took the bait, I began to see my part in these seemingly crazy discussions that involved going off topic and kitchen sinking.

It's an internal process. The focus isn't on what is said to me that triggers me as much as recognizing how I am feeling during the discussion. If I feel that I am becoming even a bit uncomfortable, I stop to think - I'm triggered by this, I need to take a time out. If a topic comes up that feels emotional, I think  " bait" and then the same response- not " I won't listen to you" but " I need a time out to get myself together".

Then, I also have to recognize when I am triggering, baiting or kitchen sinking.

It takes some practice, but this is actually a form of self care- taking a time out to calm down or re-gain composure during a discussion. It's not refusing to talk about something, but recognizing that, if I am not composed, the conversation isn't going to go well anyway.

If we see how another person is engaging in these behaviors- kitchen sinking, triggered, being triggered, it is because we have done it or are still doing it. When I read your conversation, it thought- oh yes, I have done this too. The triggers might be different ( because they are our own triggers) but the pattern is similar. Pointing out your part isn't discounting your wife's contributions, but the great thing about your part is that this is something you  have the ability to work on to lead to a change in these interactions for you.

[Notwendy]

I also agree with GK that it is the underlying issues/conflict/resentment that is fueling the emotions/motives in the conversation.

This isn't a major decision. If you get a few cans of the wrong dog food, the dog may be picky but he isn't going to starve. The resentments and feelings behind the conversation drove the importance of it.

[formflier]

 

So, as I was thinking about a response I was considering this thread and the one where I got good news and refused to be dragged down.

As I drank coffee this morning I was composing a response that went something like this:  That I was able to not be triggered during the "happy" incident because I recently new that she was on the warpath and I also recently new that I was happy and wanted to stay that way.  My post was going to be about paying more attention to her and her "shifts" of agenda so that "I" can keep her "BPDish" stuff at arms length.

As I read what notwendy wrote, I'm thinking that I need a new focus.  That somehow in my communication process I need to ask the question, and be very careful and deliberate about it, how did what I just read (assuming text), make me feel (or how do I feel about the subject in general).

If there is a happy or neutral thing, likely it is ok to let things keep going.

If it is a bad or unhappy thing, then likely I need to slow things down and be much more introspective before launching a response.  That I also need to be very deliberate about asking if this subject matter is or has been triggering for my wife and is there any evidence that she "is going there".

If we look at this from the "my wife is going to do what my wife is going to do" point of view and focus on me as the one that can make choices, then what I have written as my updated thinking is the best way to go.

I'm on my first cup of coffee, so feel free to tweak whatever if you think it needs tweaking.

Perhaps you guys can help me turn it into a mission statement for texting.  I get it lots of people may think that is "clunky" or "cumbersome", but if I see a text conversation developing, and I "strap on" my mission statement for that, vice thinking, "oh, I just want to feed the dog".  Likely a better outcome.

FF

[Notwendy]

It is a good start FF, but I will fine tune it a little. I think that you are looking at fine tuning your response in regards to how it will act on/control( in a sense) produce a certain response in your wife- positive vs negative, or not trigger her.

I will propose that you take the focus off her, and more on to you. Not because she isn't a contribution to the issues but for a couple of reasons: one is that you are the only person you are able to really change, so focusing attention on you is likely to give you results ( you are an action guy- so the effort on you is more likely to be effective at personal change).

If you are trying to compose a response that in any way modulates your wife's feelings, you are taking away her responsibility to deal with her own feelings and taking away her opportunity to learn to do this. Yes, she may pitch a fit, but eventually if you are not managing her feelings, then she may have to learn to do this to the extent that she can. Yes, she has a mental disability, but even so, she has a capacity that may not be realized if someone else is caretaking/controlling her emotions in some way.

So, two boxes. One is your stuff, one is her stuff ( or anyone else's- each has a box). Your triggers, feelings, what baits you is your stuff. Hands off her stuff- it is not yours to manage.

When you feel triggered/bait during a conversation, that isn't the time to formulate a calculated response that will result in the best reaction response from her. This may work in the military, but she isn't the other side. As far as feelings and triggers go, you are two separate boxes side by side and your box is the one you need to keep in order no matter what she does.

When you feel triggered/baited, it is your job to decide that you are not in the best condition to respond. This is because when the brain is aroused by emotions: anger, fear, irritation, and otherwise, these emotions flood your thinking center as the primitive fight/flight responses are activated. It means the conversation stops, because it isn't going to be productive and is likely to be circular, upsetting. It doesn't mean you are cruel and not willing to listen. It means "time out" and saying something like " Honey, I can't continue this right now because I am not in the best position to have a conversation. I hear your concerns and would like to discuss this when I am able to. "

The message is about you.

What if you accidentally trigger her? well that is her box. Triggers are individual. Stay out of there. She's an adult, and needs to deal with her own triggers/feelings.  But if you say something intentionally to trigger her, that is on you. Intentionally upsetting someone can require an apology.