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I've been struggling, all week, with the difference between our going NC and a pwBPD painting a non black and/or using the silent treatment. It seems to me that the net result is the same from the other side's POV.

When we go NC, the pwBPD is left with silence and not knowing (if they care to know) what is going on. We have shut them out, and thus left them feeling abandoned because of their own insecurities.

From the other side, when the pwBPD shuts out using the ST and/or painting us black, we are left not knowing what is going on with the pwBPD and our feelings of abandonment are triggered.

Both sides utilize these tactics as defense mechanisms. Both sides are trying to stop their respective, painful emotions. Both sides are doing damage to the other by triggering abandonment and/or rejection issues. Yet, we seem to thing that one is far more acceptable than the other.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me please?

NC for us is to protect us from further harm and is putting time and focus into ourselves and has nothing to do with the other party. Silent treatment and painting black for them is to reinforce a distorted view they have of us. I think nons do it as a first resort and BPDs do it as a first defense

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what I said. Both are defense mechanisms to protect against the pain that we are feeling. Why is one defense mechanism better than the other when the net result is the exact same?

In my opinion, although the action and the effect might be the same, the intention is different. After all, the silent treatment is a communication of kinds - it's a "I'm punishing you by withdrawing my communication", and it's intended as a temporary behaviour intended to punish, control, manipulate or express disapproval. Every so often the offending party might even pop up in random ways to make sure you know they're still ignoring you.

No contact is a mechanism that someone uses not to manipulate, but to enforce healthy boundaries in order to keep emotionally safe. It's usually something that someone does as a permanent action when there is no other way to proceed, and it's about protecting and serving the Self, rather than communicating anything to the other.

I'm not so sure that I believe that the intentions are different. In both cases, the intent to protect the individual doing the action.

I can tell you that my pwBPD finds my going NC to be punitive in nature. In fact, she's right, it is! It is the consequence that she must endure for her actions.

Sure, when you view NC from the side of the victim, it is beneficial; but when viewed from the other side, it is punitive. Their decisions caused the NC. They (sometimes) feel shame, hurt, abandonment, and reject. The very things that their actions were designed to prevent has been created. How can it be anything but punitive from the pwBPD's position?

Hi Meili,

To me, the difference is the history leading up to NC or ST/painting black. It seems that most of us dealing with a pwBPD (or BPD traits) experienced a significant period of time in which that person engaged in some or all of the following behaviour: raging, lying, cheating, manipulating, devaluing, pulling and pushing, recycling, dismissing, ... .

Going NC can be a way to protect oneself from this behaviour once you reach a point where it becomes intolerable and maintaining further contact is too painful. But often the pwBPD has been so effective at making you feel guilty and responsible, that maintaining NC feels horrible too. It does often hurt the pwBPD -- they might block you out and focus on other things, or in some cases truly move on and forget the non-BPD partner. But it seems they can also feel crushed by a feeling of rejection, and what is so frustrating is they so often seem not to have any awareness that their own behaviour has pushed us away.

By contrast, at least speaking just from my experience with my ex, the silent treatment or painting black on the part of the pwBPD can be a sudden explosion, triggered by possibly trivial things or imagined slights or paranoid jealousies. Of course, the pwBPD will insist that their rage or discarding is justified. Only you can decide what the truth is -- and pwBPD can be VERY good at spinning a story.

In any case, I have tried to maintain limited contact with my ex, because I really feel she is in a lot of pain and is an emotionally distressed person and I'm living across the country from her now and therefore feel relatively safe. I feel like I've worked through the worst of my anger and hurt and sense of betrayal. I still have terrible moments, but it's nice to feel like I'm keeping the channel open if she ever needs to talk (as a friend -- no way would I ever get back into a romantic relationship with her). So I understand your question and I think limited contact is good for my self-esteem, because I'm not just slamming the door and leaving my ex to deal on her own. But I think many people posting here are dealing with much more difficult/dangerous pwBPD and the only way to protect oneself in those cases may be NC.

Does that answer make sense to you?

NC is for you to heal and not worry about her. Usually we go no contact because further contact hurts us.

I suppose in my mind, I see no contact as just that - not having contact. Walking away and not looking back. The relationship has ended, so there's no reason to stay in touch and prolong the painful feelings. The Silent Treatment seems to be very much about communication, and those who use it seem to do so as a temporary measure rather than as a permanent exit from the relationship.

Yea pretty much.

And, they do their actions to protect themselves and stop their hurt. Yet, we seem to vilify them for doing so. That just seems wrong to me.

I understand that, but that does not change the net outcome.

You're right vilifying is wrong. We are just hurt by the way it happens.

The net outcome being that it's painful for the other person? Yes, I suppose it is. But the intent is different, which is why the silent treatment is seen as the more negative action. The whole purpose of it is gain some kind of advantage by hurting someone else. If NC hurts the other person (which it does - in fact for someone with such a fear of rejection it's probably one of the worst things you can do to them) then that's awful, but it's not a deliberate action to cause pain.

I've physically pushed someone away from me before to stop them from hurting me. I did it to benefit myself: to stop them from causing me physical pain and stay safe, I inflicted pain on them, but that was the only way I could escape from the bad things they wanted to do to me. What I didn't do was to deliberately hurt them in order to make myself feel better or to communicate my displeasure with them. The end result is the same though - I hurt them in order to benefit myself.

But, that's just it, the intent is NOT different! The intent is protection; whether it is NC or ST, the intent is to protect the person doing the action. The pwBPD uses the ST to protect themselves from their own pain. That's the genesis of their thought process. If it were anything else, such a person would not be classified as BPD, the would be a sociopath with, while closely related, is actually different. In that situation, the ST would be done out of complete malice rather than as a by-product of self-protection. Can you see the difference?


Knowing that NC causes someone who suffers from debilitating fears of abandonment and pain, and knowing that going NC will trigger those fears and thus causing pain, isn't the person going NC actually doing so to "gain some kind of advantage by hurting someone else"? In this both the cases of ST and NC, the advantage being protection of self at the cost of pain to another.


This is a prime example of what I'm talking about. The pwBPD is not committing their actions out of malice, but rather self-protection. As stated above, that is a completely different disorder. In the mind of the pwBPD, they are merely protecting themselves from the pain just as you were protecting yourself from physically pushing the other person away. Why is one right and the other wrong if both people are simply trying to protect their respective persons?

You are completely right for us non's it is either a last resort to keep from being hurt more, feelings not acknowledged or if need to heal. To the BPD's or UPBD it is a first defense or to punish.

I disagree because I don't think the malice and self-protection are mutually exclusive - I think the ST (whether done by a person with BPD or not) is done with the intent of punishment or manipulation, with the intent of re-engaging when the other person has shown enough contrition. In NC, the purpose is to walk away.

Some BPD people, when they leave a relationship, are going NC and are never heard from again. Some nons are intending to re-engage when their partner has learned 'their lesson' from the ST. I know for sure that people who have given me the ST in the past have come back and said "I'm talking to you again now you've apologised, but don't you ever do or say x to me again". That to me says they were using the withdrawal of communication to punish, not to walk away and get on with their lives.

To the contrary, they must be mutually exclusive because malice is an offensive measure which is the exact opposite of a measure done from a defense position.

But, even if you were to argue that the act that can be viewed as having a malicious effect can be viewed from a defensive position, we are left right back where I started. That is that NC, when viewed from the pwBPD's position is punitive and malicious in nature. It is the exact same thing what we feel from being split back and subjected to the ST.


What about when the ST is done with a defensive purpose because the person giving the ST is simply trying to escape the pain that they are feeling? They move away from the pain until such a time as the pain is not longer too strong for them to handle? Like when:


But they don't vocalize that it was for punishment. Once can easily argue, the person utilizing ST was hurt, and until that pain was relieved they couldn't communicate. That doesn't make it punishment. I'd curious to know how many, who subjected to the ST, were told that the ST was a punishment for their actions?


As is the ST; the time spent away is simply different. And, once again, the motivation, self-preservation, is the same in both instances. Yet, one is deemed fair, just, and right, and the other is condemned.

In my personal circumstances, ST was ALWAYS used to punish me. It was used as a means to make me apologize for circumstances that I probably shouldn't have had to apologize for in a normal relationship. I'm used to "talking things out", so silent treatment was always used in a punitive sense by my ex.

It was also used as a punitive action after my discard. I was discarded over the phone, so in my emotionally disregulated state, I must have sent a dozen emails begging to talk face to face. These emails were only replied to with MORE silent treatment. When she did answer, it was only to bash me with put downs and abuse and I was told "her life is no longer my business". So, I did what she asked, I went NC. A few weeks later, some of her attempts to bait me out of NC worked, I was angry at this point, and I really let her have it in an email because I finally found out about the cheating. The next morning, she shoulder checked me outside of our workplace, and threatened me with a restraining order.

I've been NC ever since, 2 days ago marks 2 months. Now, clearly my actions for going NC is not punitive. I was basically left with no other choice. I can't risk my job over a relationship. Not a day goes by, where I don't want to message her. At some point EVERYDAY I want to reach out, after all, she was a huge part of the last 4 years of my life. But the question is, what version of my ex would I get if I did break NC? Would it just be more ST? Would it be more put downs? Would she place a RO on me? Would she be receptive? I just don't know, and it's a risk I just can't take. I've been hurt ENOUGH in all of this. Am I actively trying to hurt her with my NC? Absolutely not.

In my experience, her ST is to punish me. My NC is to protect myself. While they may be the "same" the purpose is clearly different.

The difference is that NC for us is protecting ourselves from ppl who are abusing us. Abuse is never ok, no matter what issues a person has going on in their lives. NC for us is to realize that no matter what has happened, we need to protect ourselves from ABUSE. These ppl who go ST on us are using it TO abuse us. To try and force us to be different in a way that is unhealthy for us. It's their form of "protection" but it is abusive and cruel. When we go NC it's us saying that we can not take abuse any more, and that we need to heal ourselves. When a person does a ST it is TO abuse someone. It's not a form of protection in which they are relying upon themselves to heal and do what they need to grow in life. It's trying to make an exterior person responsible for their issues. It's trying to make someone else respond in a way that they want. Wether it's to force them to beg, to take blame, or to "shut up" from telling the truth--it is all designed within controlling someone else. It's abuse. NC is not abuse. NC is saying that we are done with abuse, and that we respect ourselves, take responsibility for ourselves (rather than trying to control an exterior person) and to do what we need to heal and be a healthy person. NC is the so that we can be healthy, ST is to continue in a cycle that is destructive and unhealthy. This is NOT a person taking a step back to help and heal themselves. To really focus on what they need. I think you are possibly projecting your own intentions as theirs, and that isn't the case here. This person isn't doing this for what they need. They use ST's to harm another person to "get" what they need. And that's the issue. Abusing someone and making them afraid is never a way to get a need met. This is NOT someone trying to do what they need for themselves. This is someone trying to force YOU to do what they want that is destructive to YOU. It. Is. Abuse.

OK, fair enough Honey883, but, can you please explain to me how going NC, which damages the other person, is not abuse on the other person?

It certainly seems to fit the definition of abuse. It has a cruel affect on the other person. It is exercising control over the other person (ant way you spin it, NC, ST, and splitting black exercise control over the other person).

Also, everyone keeps ignoring the splitting black component of all of this... .

We split them black in order to go NC. How are we any better than they are? Aren't we both doing it out of defense of our selves? (That question also keeps getting ignored in all of the rationalizations of why ST is bad, but NC is good.)

I don't consider my ex "split black". Did the things she did to me suck? Yes. But I know the difference between bad deeds and a bad person. She's a product of her environment. It doesn't make her "bad" but it doesn't make her "great" either. All it would take for me to finally break NC, is her just admitting she "f-ed up". That's it. Unfortunately, she's incapable of that. She's incapable of saying sorry. I don't hate her, even though it's felt like she's made it her life's mission to to get me to hate her. But, I can't go through what she did to me again, hell, I'm still getting through it. I wish nothing but the best for her and her children, but I can't endure anymore pain or abuse. I CAN'T reach out because it's become a game of control for her, and it's a game I chose to no longer play.

Doesn't that simply make the NC really a ST by the definitions that people are giving here?

Also, it appears to me, while it may not apply to you, that many of the people posting here are splitting their x black. So many are talking about how crazy their x is and how they were wrong/victimized. That's the very thing that the pwBPD is doing when the split the person black.

Can you see my problem with all of this based on the above?

Hello,

I was reading up on the NC a little more through this website and it does seem to be being used out of context.  The no contact is suggested to be put in place once you have decided it's too much for you to handle (whether they force a breakup or you decide you want out) and it is designed to be temporary.  The chart I read says 6-8 weeks.  It is for you to reflect and clear the confusion in your own head and heal so you can get to the place of:

"releasing with grace" which is defined as: I'm exiting the relationship and my partner wants me to stay at some level.  I'm letting go with grace, compassion and dignity for everyone.  I can handle the limited communications needed to do this and I can keep them under control without revisiting the old relationship dramas.  I am not too emotional vulnerable to handle this.

Deciding to let go does not mean you need to implement the silent treatment, I think it just means you deal with your closure when you are ready and strong again.   

No Contact is defined as: I'm exiting the relationship and for now I need hte avoidance/withdrawal of "no contact" because I am emotionally vulnerable (contact is hurtful and upsetting) or because I am angry or resentful. 

Hope this helps.  Many of us seem to struggle with the thought of NEVER contacting our significant BPD partner again.  I don't think that is what "no contact" means.  I think it is more like "if your hand is on a hot plate.  It hurts, you can see it burning, remove your hand from the flame".  Process the pain, rinse in cold water, ice it, bandage it, apply your medication, even see a Dr. if you need to." 

Once the hand is healed, that's a different story.  it's your call if you want to put your hand back or near that flame... .

That is my perspective, hope it offers some insight for you!

Bunny-

Meili, I think this is a great insight.

Anyhow, we can't ever know what's in the mind and heart of another person, and people might do things for more than one reason. (Malice AND self-protection.) To an extent, it's beside the point to worry about intentions.

What about this: when communication ceases, it matters a lot how it stops. Does the other person simply stop responding? Just dead air? Did they leave some avenues open, leave the door open a maddening crack, or did they slam it forcefully? What were their last words?

You can control how you go no-contact. You can give the other person a calm, reasoned explanation. If you want to leave the door open for future communications, you can say that. If you never want to talk to them again, you can say that. You can say it in a way that is truthful but not angry.

ST typically involves none of those compassionate, mature acts of preparation for silence.

What do you think?

Meili I can understand where you see these things from, and I can relate in a lot of ways because I struggled with it too.

My X isn't split black because well, I don't have BPD. So I don't see a person as fully evil, or fully good. I see that my ex abused me. I see that my ex made me feel like I was worthless when I needed just 5 minutes to take care of myself. I see that my ex treated me in a way that was so selfish, the shock of what she did has taken two years to sort through. My ex abused me. She might be damaged, but she never has the right to abuse me, and yet she thinks that she somehow does have the right. I don't split my ex black, I see the truth. Splitting someone black is a part of their disorder. It's not us generalizing these ppl. My ex is literally crazy. I'm not just being a jerk. And I'm definitely not a jerk because all I ever did was try to help her. And what did she do? She tried to force me to feel the worthlessness she felt inside. She repaid me evil for good.

I get that maybe you want to see your ex in the light of "they're hurting and damaged and trying to protect themselves". But I know for me, all I got was abuse in exchange for my best efforts. All I got was made to feel worthless and like nothing, when all I tried to do was lift her up. All I got was a decrease in my life, a negative value, in exchange for giving my best.

I feel sorry for my ex, but that doesn't mean I want anything to do with her. She might be broken, but she is still responsible for her choices. And her choice is to use me, and treat me like I'm no more than a piece of trash that she's done with. Who wants that in their life? I don't care any more about how she feels, because SHE doesn't care at ALL about how I feel. And I damn sure demand equality in my relationships. That is my right. In fact, she sickly wants me to feel like the opposite of who I am; worthless, and valueless. That IS sick. And that is not someone I want in my life. I choose NC because of how this person treats ME. Because I am valuable, and because she will always try to make me believe that I am not.

This is not abuse on the other pwBPD, because it us stopping THEM from abusing us. NC isn't just a loose choice we make, it's usually the very last resort a person has. When someone is so destructive, so abusive in a person's life, they have NO other choice. And that is a sad day. Because we do care about these ppl. But the cold reality is that THEY do not care about us.

We are not abusive because we are trying to stop someone else's abuse. Yes, we are trying to protect ourselves, but it is in light of someone actually harming us. Their defensive is TO harm us. That is very different. Yes, it has an effect on them. And most of us spent sometimes years in these relationships trying to walk on eggshells around their hyper-synsativity. The truth is, these are their issues. It's not our job to make them feel better about it. We are responsible to ppl, not for them. These ppl make use tip toe around all their fears, which basically makes us a bull in a china shop. And when their issues get triggered they try to punish us, rather than deal with their issues. That is the root of all of this. It's not my job to be responsible for someone else's problems. And it's definitely not my job to tolerate all that tip-toeing only to step a little too far, and be drastically punished. That simply, is not how I want to live my life. And not what I deserve. NC is about what I deserve. It's no longer about them.

This isn't mean, because it's the only way for us to equalize out of all of this. In normal relationships, lets say a person gives %50 to themselves, and %50 to a partner. That is healthy. In these relationships, it turns into us giving %98 and them giving %2. And the insanity is that they want to pretend that they are the one giving! Or that their 2% is equal, and it's not. NC is the only way to equalize this in ourselves after a person has 1. Taken so much from us, and 2. We have been punished and beaten down for THEIR problems.

I'm not sure if I have answered all your questions. I hope this helps. Honestly, I can relate a lot to what you say. I had a lot of trouble with NC. I felt like it was wrong and selfish of me. But I know what I was missing in the picture was that I was completely focused on what other ppl "deserved", but I was completely absent from that picture. It's taken me a long time to change that scale, and I think you might be in the same struggle. This isn't about them anymore. The truth is that in these relationships, the scale was already tipped way too far. But somehow in our broken minds, we still think we need to give more. It's not true.

If you don't mind my asking, Meili, are you in contact? If not, who ended it and how?

great discussion. i just wanted to add this: "No Contact" the Right Way and the Wrong Way (https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a110.htm)

Yes, Steel, I can agree with that. I wonder how many of us did the compassionate thing when going NC vs. just shutting the door on our pwBPD?

Honestly, I think that's probably where my struggle with all of this stems from. I just slammed the door on her without any real explanation other than: "I'm tired of being abused, I'm done and outta here."


I don't dispute that no person has a right to abuse another person.

What I find interesting is this:


When they split us black, they truly believe that we are what they see. Just like in the idealization phase, we truly are wonderful people that they love.

When we are split black, they truly hate us and believe that we harmed them. Let's face, it we did IN THEIR EYES. Just like in our eyes, they abused us. They certainly don't think or believe that they did any such thing however.

This is why I keep pointing out the POV part of my problem with all of this. My compassion causes me to not only look at my POV, but theirs. They are people too. They have their own thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and worries. Now, granted, theirs are tainted; I won't dispute that. But, theirs are just as real to them as ours are to us. I think that is getting lost in the shuffle here.


It isn't that I want to see it that way, it is that is the only way to see it.


But, why did you get the abuse? Was it because she was truly evil and malicious, or was it because she suffers from BPD and was using the only tools that she has available to her in her mind to protect herself?


I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone have anything to do with an abusive ex if they don't want to!


And, my point all along is that they choose what they do because of how they believe and feel that they have been treated. Please do not take my comments to mean that I'm trying to justify anyone's abusive behaviors or actions. I am not. I am merely trying to understand why our hurting/damaging a pwBPD is somehow looked on as favorable and when they do the same thing, protect themselves, they are looked at with disdain and a lack of compassion.


I keep hearing that, but I've yet to see anyone provide anything that resembles a logical explanation as to why it is acceptable for us to abuse back or inflict punitive punishment on them (assuming that NC actually causes them pain)? Sure, NC is the only means that most of us have to stop the bleeding. I know that it was the only means that I had at the time (and probably still have for that matter). I certainly would not expect someone to stand still while another person hit them repeatedly.

But, I think that Steel answered my question. It is more about how we go NC than the NC itself. It's whether or not we utilize compassion in doing so.


Do you not think that each and every action by a pwBPD is viewed, to them, as an act of last resort based on our perceived actions?


This argument fails every time we complain about the actions of our pwBPD. After all, they are trying to stop the pain that they feel is being inflicted upon them (the abuse that they think that they are suffering) each time they act out. If it is acceptable for us to use painful tactics to stop the pain that we feel, why is it not acceptable for the pwBPD?


And, yet, so many of us (myself included here) complain about the pwBPD totally ignoring and not protecting our feelings. hhmmmm... .


Well, I'm not focused on what my pwBPD needs, but I do believe that each person, no matter how broken they are (unless, they are truly sociopaths and commit harm for no other reason than their own enjoyment) deserve compassion. Does that mean that we should not protect ourselves? Nope, that's not what I'm saying.

But, it seems like the compassion is lost. It seems like so much focus is put on the pwBPD's actions that we ignore our role in all of this. It seems like we forget that pwBPD is hurt and hurting.

I don't mind you asking at all. No, I'm not in contact and have had NC for about a month I believe.

It ended very poorly. It ended with her calling my office and then getting angry with me because I would not give her a date and time certain that I would call her back or meet with her face-to-face. That was followed by harsh emails and text messages that went unanswered.

We had an agreement that we wouldn't communicate for two weeks. She violated that agreement on multiple occasions. So, when the two week mark rolled around, I ignored it because I knew that if I didn't any communication would have been met with more anger from her because I was doing the very thing that she was afraid that I'd do; abandon her. Since I was abandoning her either way, I saw no point in prolonging the pain that we were both feeling.

Thank you once removed!

If it makes you feel any better, that's more than I got. I got a one-line sarcastic email with no reference to ceasing communication, and then nothing.

In any case, I agree with you: I think he did what he did to stop the pain. Being in contact with me was just too much for him. There was a lot of shame there, If he had the resources to disengage in a compassionate way, I truly believe he would have, because who wants even more shame? Making me the bad guy so he could ghost was probably just a primitive defense.

Seeing it from this angle helps me depersonalize his actions.

I'm very happy that it helped, even if just a little bit.

Perhaps all of my ranting about all of this is borne from my own shame of handling the situation with the only tool that I had left for me at the time; to abruptly go NC.

In my case, just like your pwBPD, I acted from a primal state that I'm not viewing as immature (I'm not saying that anyone else who goes NC is being immature, just that I was!).

Even though my intent was a permanent exit from the r/s, I did it in a manner that was fueled by anger and pain; in essence, immaturity. I let go of one of the defining traits that I hold dear, my compassion for others. I hurt the person that I loved (albeit out of self-preservation) without even a glimmer of thought about what I was doing.

There is so much talk that flies around these boards about the emotional immaturity of a pwBPD; and yet, my action was based on that same maturity level. Again, I'm not saying that applies to anyone other than myself.

I cringe remembering some of the incredibly immature things I did. The whole relationship was immature, from soup to nuts. I guess 50 isn't too old to grow up.

Yes, exactly! Maybe it's fitting that mine ended in such an immature fashion since it was that way throughout. Live and learn I guess. (that doesn't make it feel any better though!)

Well Meili the difference is that reality is at play here. Just because my ex thinks that I somehow hurt her, doesn't mean that I have. That's not to say she doesn't feel how she feels, but that doesn't mean I caused that pain. The difference is that one of these reactions is based in reality, and the other is not. The TRUTH is that my ex abused me, and that I did not abuse her. The truth is what matters. Should a person be subjected to a false reality? So should I walk around like I am an abuser, and a person with BPD because my ex accused me of that? There's a line. Just because these ppl perceive things a certain way, doesn't mean that we need to respond how they want us to. And we're certainly doing them no favors in letting them believe these lies by feeding into them.

I think in a way you want to see that compassion has an effect in this, and I can really relate to that. But the truth is, if a person doesn't try to take responsibility and make changes in their own lives, our compassion has very little effect. In fact, it can often encourage their very destructive behavior. I was so compassionate to my ex, and all it really taught her was to act more entitled. She became worse in her next relationship. I can place a good seed into the ground, but if that soil is "dead", the seed won't grow. Being in a relationship with a Bpd is a place where I think most of us have to learn where no matter how much care or compassion we have in our hearts, it can only make a real difference in ppl's lives who are truly trying. If we keep trying to pour out "compassion" to ppl who are not taking responsibility in their lives, all we are teaching them is that they can continue to act this way, and someone with a good heart will come by and spoon feed them. The world does need good ppl, compassionate ppl. So why should they waste themselves, exhaust themselves, trying to help ppl who will literally not lift a pinking to help themselves? We are not teaching the world to act more with love, we are teaching the world that you can sit on your butt, complain, have issues, and everyone will cater to you, while you abuse them and call them "not good enough".

I honestly think you see this kind of slanted. You're looking at all your effort, all that you should be capable of doing, but what about them? Honestly, I looked at things like this a lot too. NC took me so long because I felt like I was hurting them. But the reason we go NC is because these relationships are not equal. These ppl are hurting, yes. But I spent my whole relationship with this person trying to not trigger their fears of rejection. And all it did was lower me into a hole that they proudly put the lid on. Talk about sociopathic ppl? My ex relished my pain. She relished making afraid. When I finally couldn't just keep giving and giving, and needed for me? She punished me as much as she could, and enjoyed it. It made her feel good about herself. So yep, she definitely meets my NC criteria.

I want to say one last thing: I'm sorry it's eating away at you, how you went no-contact, and I know in a perfect world you would have done it differently. Speaking for myself, I did not have the common sense to break off contact myself. I was still thinking, "Where there's contact there's hope." (I didn't realize yet how damaged that guy is.) But 4, 5, even 10 months later, even if I still wished passionately that my ex would get in touch and say, "Hey, sorry about how I did that, here's why," etc., the renewed contact of an explanation/apology would have done me more harm than good.

Anyhow, don't beat yourself up. You did the best you could.

Well, it has been said (and for good reason too) that each person has their own version of reality. What you see is reality to you, what I see is reality to me. Are they the same. Nope. We each view the world from our own perspective and through our own filters. It is that perspective and those filters that create reality for us.


Yes, to her, that's exactly what it means.

Of course, I agree with you; it doesn't have to mean that to you.


Without disputing that it can have the opposite effect as you said, I do dispute that having compassion for a person that isn't actively attempting to change their life and take responsibility for his/her own actions can have a strong effect. There are many cases where people do not have the strength, tools, or courage to take responsibility or effectuate change. Heck! This board is filled with such people! Yet, we treat them with compassion and try to help them find the things that they need.


Yep, that's exactly what I'm doing; but I don't see it as slanted. Ya see, I know that I cannot change another person. I am not in control of what my, or anyone else's for that matter, pwBPD. All that I'm in control of are my own actions and decisions. What they chose to do is completely on them. Does that mean that I can't be compassionate (from a distance in this case) toward my x? Certainly not!


Now this I will wholly dispute. Each of us participated in our respective romantic or platonic... .aka chosen r/s (FOO issues are completely different mind you, they are not chosen). Each of us was responsible for 50% of what happened. That is by definition equality.

I've read so much in your posts on this thread about what your x did to you, but you were there, you took part. She didn't do it in a vacuum.


I'm sorry that you were with someone like that. It is my understanding that most pwBPD aren't like that however. They have a very deep, caring, and loving side. They inflict pain out of fear, not for enjoyment. That is a totally different ball game. That had to be a horrible place for you to live.

Thank you Steel. I'm not beating myself or being eaten up about how I went NC. It isn't how I'd have chosen to go about things, but it is what it is.

Really, my point when all this started was that it appears to me that we are applying different labels to the exact same actions and feeling good about ourselves (well, at least not demonizing ourselves) as a result.

Both sets of actions are borne of protection for the self. Yet, one is looked at as bad and the other good.

It is a hypocrisy that I cannot understand.

compassion and responsibility need not be pitted against each other.

on paper, a relationship is a series of interactions; actions, reactions. its a given that the relationship was dysfunctional. its a given that we did the best we could.

the growth comes from examining those interactions, which were healthy, which were unhealthy, which were theirs, which were ours. theres not much we can do about it now apart from seeing it in a balanced way and learning from it. with that knowledge, there is a whole lot we can do better in the future.

Now this I will wholly dispute. Each of us participated in our respective romantic or platonic... .aka chosen r/s (FOO issues are completely different mind you, they are not chosen). Each of us was responsible for 50% of what happened. That is by definition equality.

I've read so much in your posts on this thread about what your x did to you, but you were there, you took part. She didn't do it in a vacuum.


They inflict pain out of fear, not for enjoyment. [/quote]
Very interesting discussion. I have to weigh in here and say that I don't agree with one important presupposition, namely that 'they' act only out of fear and pain. 'They' sometimes act out of those things, yes, and sometimes we do, either in response to them or just because we have our own fear and pain or whatever. A bit of this is normal in relationships.

The important difference, in my view and experience, is that 'we' at least claim to have some consistency of feeling. People with BPD, in my own direct experience and according to everything that I've read over the last 6 months, leads me to believe that the extreme mood swings that occur lead to a completely different perception of themselves, their lives, and the people in their lives. And there is frequently not more than a glimmer of recognition of those swings. In so far as there is an awareness of them, the way of coping seems to be to locate the reason for it in something outside - a bad conversation, bad news, etc. There is an inability to track the source of a huge emotional shift back to themselves (this would mean introspection, analysis, honest reflection - I think we can all appreciate how hard and frightening this can be).

However, an explanation usually is required, to oneself and, if in a relationship, at some stage and to some degree to the other. This is where the fun starts. If my mood changes on a whim and I feel out of control of those changes but need to present a reasonably coherent and consistent self to the world - then I am gong to work pretty hard to find the reason outside of myself. And if fear and pain are my prime motivators, I might feel that I am fighting for my very survival and become vicious in that fight. Sure.

My point is that while there are always so many narratives and versions of reality, we are not dealing with people who are in control of their emotions and are capable of consistency.

This conversation feels more and more like you're poking holes in what I have said. And it's becoming about what I haven't said. While I'm trying to be vulnerable in my reasons for my choices, you're making pretty large assumptions about my beliefs as well as the responsibility that I have taken in my own life. You're countering me with theoretical ideas, that pretty much feel like you're trying to one-up me. As well as while I'm trying to be vulnerable with my experience, you're just talking in concepts. I'd challenge you to talk about your own self, and your own experience--how you really feel.

I've worked really hard at these questions, and I'm trying to share that with you. Because I really feel for you. I have struggled a lot with these questions, esp in light of compassion. But I didn't respond to you to joust about theory. I don't mind being open with you, but I do mind your assumptions.

Ya know, I often wish I initiated the NC, so yes in that I can see your point Meili. Your act going NC to her was, for you to protect your self worth and dignity. Something we all lost in our Discard. As you discarded her so, certainly i can see how by doing so you feel compassion to how that hurt her... .and you both! Sounds healthy to me.  But, in there lies the difference — She doesn't think about "US"... she only thinks of her. IF She discarded you, painted you black... do you really think she would have compassion to how it made you feel?  My understanding is - no. I believe that's where HoneyB33 (and myself) agree perhaps. You going NC was for your own good (and protection) and you do know, quite healthy that people with these disorder need to have compassion because they are *sick*.

My reality in all this is that. They force us into NC but don't have any compassion or empathy for our struggles in the matter , like we do. And when i say "our" I mean "US"... her and me. Something us non's never seem to lose site of.  It's human decency question perhaps. And, as adults and with perhaps a history of rocking r/s after awhile I guess we all need to take responsibility for our actions at some point. What's that old adage about History and "dooming to repeat it". They never do learn... so they continue without learning and leave a wake of damage behind. Its tough finding compassion after awhile... .i guess.

I believe some indifferences here stem from the fact that, *most* everybody on this site was forced into NC. Now, even though [yes] we were 50% of the equation, our percentage really was never good enough, so it doesn't feel like a 'protective' choice for most of us. And, judging by the nature of the disorder and the way they rage and act... they (unlike us) probably have no thought towards compassion for us like *we* seem to have for them after the discard. I don't think my xwBPD traits is going... "Poor healthy minded guy, he tried so hard to make me happy and treat me like human being... with respect and patience... .maybe I'll consider that in the future and tell him how sorry I am."

I bet once time goes by Meili that you will be able to reach out to your ex and with a clear mind try and be a peaceful person to her. You did not paint her black. You simply sacrificed and cut off the leg, knowing if you didn't, the body will die.

They cut off our heads.

He painted me black. I did not paint him black nor do I see him as bad.

He sees me as evil and crazy and has mentally abused me beyond belief. Wanted me to kill myself and even made me believe I deserved it. He closed the door on communication. I left it open by saying that even though he hates me I will never close the door on him. End of story. "They" are the ones doing this. I hardly see nons acting like that.  He is giving me the Silent Treatment. He is staying NC. He is painting me black. So this question is kind of irrelevant in my case and I think a lot of cases.

Even though I am not the one who initiated NC, I must say I agree with everything you say. Your views are well substantiated  and totally relatable to me. It seems like you've thought this through and found a real stable place to find your peace. I think going through hell and back finally makes you realize that you count too. Giving all and getting a sh*tload of abuse back in return drives a person insane.

NO CONTACT; Is when you break and TELL THEM you wish to no longer communicate.

SILENT TREATMENT; Is when "all of a sudden" and without warning you cease communication WITHOUT telling them. Which is also known as "Ghosting". 

It is NOT silent treatment if they openly break up with you or vice verse.

Ghosting or Silent treatment is ABUSE. plain and simple.

Walking away and not telling them anything is nothing more than a childish action that warrents "self examination" as to why you can't leave a note or text or email. When you TELL someone "it's over" you have given them closure and you move on. That is NO CONTACT.

Honey833, I'm really sorry that I'm coming across that way. I promise you that was not my intent. I am only trying to understand why our hurting them is acceptable, but their doing the same to us is demonized. That's all. I didn't mean it to be personal about anyone in particular. Again, I'm very sorry that I came across the way that I did.

Also, I apologize for any incorrect assumptions that I made. It is sometimes hard to get a clear understanding of what a person is trying to convey via text alone.


I have no problem or fear of doing this. I try to be very open and honest with how I feel and what I believe. Was your suggestion for me to do this internally (that I do all the time), or did you have something that you'd like me to address?


But, theory is what we are all working with here. That's all that we have to discuss. We can only speculate as to what goes on outside of our respective bodies. Not one of us has our pwBPD here to explain their side of the story (not that it would probably make much sense to any of us), so all that we have are presumptions to work with.

Once again, I would really like to come apologize for coming across to you as I did.

Mellie,

Why do you believe NC hurts the BPD person?  Sometimes it is better for them too, easier to move on.  Often they initiate it and act as if you never existed.  I think my ex is fine with it. He believes I'm an evil person and wants nothing to do with me.  Then smiles at me in the hallway and asks me how my weekend was?  (we still work together)  We never spoke of no contact. I just noticed that he goes back and forth less if I limit my contact which I believe is best for both of us. He seems to get less attached to idealizing me again. 

For me, when I'm painted white, I always have the fear of one day being painted black again and I get anxious about when that freefall is coming.  When I'm painted black, atleast my feet are on the ground and I don't have to worry about that freefall coming up... .atleast for a little while.     

I don't think anyone is saying to do NC as a way to strike back and if they are, I do not agree with that.  I do limited contact because the more time I put into my ex BPD partner, the worse I feel about myself as a person.  It's hard to shake off the terrible things they say about you sometimes and a little sneaks in to my heart.  Out of all my past relationships, he is the only one that I am not friendly with. 

I'm not doing anything to hurt anyone... .or retaliate.

You are not responsible for the happiness of another person.  If my deciding to do limited or no contact with my ex because it's in my best interest but it ends up hurting his feelings... .That is ok, those are his feelings.  He can feel how he feels.  It's not abuse to choose not to be involved in someone's life.  Staying in someone's life just to be mean and tear them down is abuse.

Maybe you should write a letter to your ex or talk it out when you are ready... .

I wish you the best and I hope your able to get your questions answered.

Bunny

I understand your question Meili, I think you gotta answer that question for yourself now. I really get where that question is coming from, because it feels like it's the same thing. I asked the same questions, and really struggled with them a lot. But it's not. Yes, both hurt ppl, but hurting ppl isn't always wrong. It depends what hurts a person. There is a quote that says something along the lines that if someone is hurt by the truth, they deserve to be. That doesn't mean cruelty, and there is never an excuse to use truth maliciously. But living by the truth is never wrong. There is a very large difference in these. So if someone is hurt because you tell them the truth, that is very different from hurting someone by telling them lies and abusing them. Generally the hand we have been dealt by these ppl is that they are telling us lies, and harming us, and then harming us even more when we simply try to tell them the truth that they are hurting us. Yes, NC can still hurt someone, but that doesn't mean we're doing something wrong. But that also does mean that their ST can hurt us, and it doesn't make it right. One is "deserved" and one is not.

Anyways, I think this will go in circles over and over if we keep talking about it. I guess you just decide what you believe. Do you want to believe that what you are doing is good? Do you want to believe that your self-preservation matters? Or do you want to believe that NC and ST are the same thing? Or are you fighting to know they are different, but can't seem to see how yet?

I appreciate your apology. I understand that things can seem a certain way on these forums. I am in no way denouncing compassion, or my responsibility. I can see how from the one direction it could seem that way. Haha, trust me. My problem is that I take on too much responsibility, not too little.

And what I meant in talking about yourself wasn't something specific, or that you are not vulnerable. I just meant that you might find more clarity if you talked more about how you really felt, rather than what you thought (theoretical). I understand that that is what we have here in discussion. But no one rule works for all. I am saying this as a person who very much works in a similar way. I look very much for the boundary or "rule" that I want to live by. Which isn't wrong, but I think you may find more clarity in your choices not by spinning your mind with a million questions, but feeling your heart. Because you already know your answer. Again, I'm very much saying this as someone who approaches things the same way, so I'm preaching just as much to myself.

Thank you for that response Honey833.

I am looking at things with my heart rather than my mind. That's the genesis of this whole discussion. My cognitive mind understands the rationale of all of this; it's the emotional part that generates the questions.

Bunny,

I think that they are hurt because the driving force behind them is fear. When we go NC, we substantiate their fears and bring them to life. The very thing that they are afraid will happen, happens.

I don't think that anyone is saying to go NC to strike back either. I understand that it's a protective measure. I also understand that in many cases it is a necessity.

The part that confuses me is the very thing that you said about not being responsible for another's happiness. The same holds true for our pwBPD. They are not responsible for our happiness, yet I see so many posts about people being upset about being hurt by their pwBPD because the pwBPD didn't care about the person's happiness. Then, we turn around and, basically, treat our pwBPD the same way that they treated us... .without caring.

Now, it is really easy to argue that we don't need to care about someone who does not care about us. I just don't subscribe to that theory.

Meili,

True, you are right they are not responsible for our happiness either and alot of people on this site struggle with letting go because they want so badly to get back to where it was before.  I think it has something to do with the blame they put on us.  We don't want to feel like a bad person and we want to get to more of a neutral place so we can part ways amicablly.  I personally believe those are our own "issues" we need to deal with... .that we need to strengthen in ourselves.  They hurt us so deeply on levels we don't warrant.  It's hard when someone you love that supposedly loves you could think so badly of you.  It goes against all things that feel natural and safe.  Especially for those of us who have had "descent" breakups with ex's and still are friends.  This type of hate and disregard is difficult to deal with.

Did you read the post about what no contact is and how it is supposed to be used? I posted it maybe a week back on this thread.  I understand what you are saying about their worst fear coming through and them hurting but you can't blame yourself or take responsibility for that.  They would most likely create that scenario with or without you.  Because it isn't about what is happening, it is about what they believe/feel is happening and you have no control over that.  You are painted black to make it easier for them to leave you.  I'm like you I think, I don't like unresolved conflict so for me it takes more negative energy to try and avoid someone than it does to address it head on.

I would suggest staying focused on taking care of you and cut off any negative communication.  Meaning if the ex is ranting and raving about how horrible you are then respond something like "I'm sorry your hurting but I don't want to talk about this until you can talk calmy or I won't have a conversation with you until you can talk in a productive manner."  Even if you just say, "Let's talk tomorrow."  Only you know how much negativity you can handle.  Your focus needs to be on you and how you are feeling FIRST.  Doesn't mean you can't have compassion or talk to your ex BUT you need to take care of you first.  Again only you can guage that.  Some of us can handle more than others... .if you can handle more- do what works for you.  Just try to understand some people have been in it for so long that they are severly lost and depressed.  They can't take much more so for them... .no contact is the only way to go.

With my personal situation, my ex BPD ended it with me so I just granted his wish and left.  I know it probably isn't what he really wanted.  More of a way of scaring me into jumping through hoops to vow my love to him so he felt good again.  But he made the decision... .he said the words to me... .more than once. Therefore he will have to deal with the consequences of his actions.  How many times did he think he could tell me he didn't want me before I walk away?  I didn't go NC on him.  I just held my head high and moved on because I know I am a good person and I have confidence in the love I give and I refused to buy into his image of me.  I don't need to be with someone who says he doesn't want me.  I will find someone who does want me and likes me and says nice things to me. 

It was hard and it hurt but I chose to react to his actions and not wonder what he is feeling or going through internally.  That is no longer my concern.  My life is about my life, not his.  He is no longer a part of my life.  I need to deal with my feelings and how all of this effected me.  I guess in a way, he went no contact with me... .never text or called to address any of it after the split.  Although he does use work as a way to interact with me... .which is really awkward and inappropriate but I just keep it professional.  I do not wish to share my life with him, we are not friends because he does not act like a friend.

I think alot of co-dependant personalities are partners to BPD... .and that is something each of us need to explore and work on.  That might be one of the biggest ties that make it so hard for us to break away.  We want to help them, save them... .we want to fix it, but we aren't in control of their lives, only our own. 

I also read alot obout how the BPD doesn't hurt as much with distance as they do with intimacy so I don't think that they feel the pain as deeply as nons would. 

How are you doing now?  Things getting any clearer for you?  It took me about 5-6 months to fully process it all and then I still had anxiety - probably from just having to interact with him daily and I worried about losing my job.  I feel like I'm in a good place now.

Bunny   

I'm doing well. I have NC with my pwBPD. And, yes, I read the link that you posted.

I'm really unsure why people keep making comments about how they believe that I "don't get it." I do get it. I get it completely. I just don't see it the same way that many here seem to see it.

That might be a good thing. Hang in there.  This is a hard place for anyone to be and it sounds like you have a better handle on it than most... .so keep doing what works for you!

What you said in this bunny, totally rings true for me. I do not have a desire to "get back" to anything with this person. My struggle has really been with the blame that they put onto me. I guess when I was going through all of this, I couldn't imagine someone saying such horrible things about a person (that they really believed) if there wasn't some grounds for it. I had been through so many abusive relationships with ppl (mostly friendships) that I finally just snapped and believed it all. I think in some way I was so desperate for it all to end, that I saw it as my only way out. NOPE.

I think it is really hard to just see things end like that. I too have pretty much had really good break-ups, and I'm generally friends with all my ex's. So to be served this insane judgment was just totally crazy to me. It's really refreshing to be here on the forum, and reading about BPD ppl. It's really helping me believe myself as to what I already knew was true. I think I am just kicking myself the most for having ever given in to believing those lies. It has literally cost me years of my life.

With what you said with, "We don't want to feel like a bad person and we want to get to more of a neutral place so we can part ways amicablly.  I personally believe those are our own "issues" we need to deal with... .that we need to strengthen in ourselves." Could you expand upon that? How to approach these issues, and deal with them? I am seeing how these things are issues in me, but I'm kind of lost in how to approach them.

[/quote]
With what you said with, "We don't want to feel like a bad person and we want to get to more of a neutral place so we can part ways amicablly.  I personally believe those are our own "issues" we need to deal with... .that we need to strengthen in ourselves." Could you expand upon that? How to approach these issues, and deal with them? I am seeing how these things are issues in me, but I'm kind of lost in how to approach them.[/quote]
Hi Honey,

I can only speak for myself and my experience but what I found was I had a a co-dependent connection that started with me and my alcoholic mom.  For many years I tried to fix her, hide her alcohol from her, cover for her… lay next to her all night to make sure she was ok.  My job at an early age was to take care of someone else first so if that person did something wrong or was hurt, it was my fault and my job to fix it.  I then picked an abusive marriage for ten years.  I finally started learning about co-dependency and why we choose to accept abuse.  I needed him to tell me I was a good person.  He would only do that “sometimes” and only if I stayed with him.  If I tried to leave, he would say bad things about me.  My life, my persona was a reflection of how he saw me. 

After 10 years, I left the marriage and was single and worked on taking care of me.  I learned how to back away from other people’s problem’s and look at it more like an observer rather than to intervene and fix.  I had to learn that “no one can make you feel inferior without your consent”.  I learned I know who I am and no matter what you say, it doesn’t change that.   

Then I found myself in this BPD relationship.  Of course I didn’t start feeling the co-dependent ties until the devaluing started.  I thought I had a completely different relationship while things were good.  Then once the devaluing started, I felt the automatic “it’s my fault, I have to fix it” creeping in.  Luckily, I was strong enough to not get wrapped up in it.  I knew it was dysfunctional because I had that same feeling in the pit of my stomach.  I didn’t understand logically what was happening yet but the “feeling” was very familiar.  I got into couple’s therapy and the therapist immediately validated me.  I new something was off and it wasn’t me.  I tried for a while to hold him accountable and understand him and stay by his side.  But it became too much for me and I left.  Shortly after that, the therapist shared his suspected diagnosis with me.  I dodged a bullet.





I also found If you google the abandoned child and the lonely child, there is an amazing dynamic between why our personality type pair up with BPD.  As lonely children, we are very loving people and we try to understand others.  We are very independent.   In our attempt to understand them, it makes them question the relationship which triggers fear of abandonment and the cycle begins.  I found it really interesting and it kind of takes away the “maybe I could have done something different” feeling because the step by step leading up to the ending of the relationship is right there in black and white….  So for me, it told me it was going to happen no matter what because I have a healthy thought process.  Only another dysfunctional person would stay in that.  Keep in mind, we are all dysfunctional while we are accepting abuse (in my mind) but it is or can be temporary dysfunctional (or situational).  We can grow, get out and stay out.  I will try to find the article and send it to you in a person message. It is long but worth reading.

Bunny

heres a good perspective piece on the subject:  PERSPECTIVES: From idealization to devaluation - why we struggle  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=161524.msg1548981#msg1548981)

Thank you once removed. :)

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