NC vs. ST and/or Painting Black

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I've been struggling, all week, with the difference between our going NC and a pwBPD painting a non black and/or using the silent treatment. It seems to me that the net result is the same from the other side's POV.

When we go NC, the pwBPD is left with silence and not knowing (if they care to know) what is going on. We have shut them out, and thus left them feeling abandoned because of their own insecurities.

From the other side, when the pwBPD shuts out using the ST and/or painting us black, we are left not knowing what is going on with the pwBPD and our feelings of abandonment are triggered.

Both sides utilize these tactics as defense mechanisms. Both sides are trying to stop their respective, painful emotions. Both sides are doing damage to the other by triggering abandonment and/or rejection issues. Yet, we seem to thing that one is far more acceptable than the other.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me please?

[Meili]

I've been struggling, all week, with the difference between our going NC and a pwBPD painting a non black and/or using the silent treatment. It seems to me that the net result is the same from the other side's POV.

When we go NC, the pwBPD is left with silence and not knowing (if they care to know) what is going on. We have shut them out, and thus left them feeling abandoned because of their own insecurities.

From the other side, when the pwBPD shuts out using the ST and/or painting us black, we are left not knowing what is going on with the pwBPD and our feelings of abandonment are triggered.

Both sides utilize these tactics as defense mechanisms. Both sides are trying to stop their respective, painful emotions. Both sides are doing damage to the other by triggering abandonment and/or rejection issues. Yet, we seem to thing that one is far more acceptable than the other.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me please?

[SoMadSoSad]

NC for us is to protect us from further harm and is putting time and focus into ourselves and has nothing to do with the other party. Silent treatment and painting black for them is to reinforce a distorted view they have of us. I think nons do it as a first resort and BPDs do it as a first defense

[Meili]

NC for us is to protect us from further harm and is putting time and focus into ourselves and has nothing to do with the other party. Silent treatment and painting black for them is to reinforce a distorted view they have of us.

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what I said. Both are defense mechanisms to protect against the pain that we are feeling. Why is one defense mechanism better than the other when the net result is the exact same?

[Suspicious1]

In my opinion, although the action and the effect might be the same, the intention is different. After all, the silent treatment is a communication of kinds - it's a "I'm punishing you by withdrawing my communication", and it's intended as a temporary behaviour intended to punish, control, manipulate or express disapproval. Every so often the offending party might even pop up in random ways to make sure you know they're still ignoring you.

No contact is a mechanism that someone uses not to manipulate, but to enforce healthy boundaries in order to keep emotionally safe. It's usually something that someone does as a permanent action when there is no other way to proceed, and it's about protecting and serving the Self, rather than communicating anything to the other.

[Meili]

I'm not so sure that I believe that the intentions are different. In both cases, the intent to protect the individual doing the action.

I can tell you that my pwBPD finds my going NC to be punitive in nature. In fact, she's right, it is! It is the consequence that she must endure for her actions.

Sure, when you view NC from the side of the victim, it is beneficial; but when viewed from the other side, it is punitive. Their decisions caused the NC. They (sometimes) feel shame, hurt, abandonment, and reject. The very things that their actions were designed to prevent has been created. How can it be anything but punitive from the pwBPD's position?

[rfriesen]

Hi Meili,

To me, the difference is the history leading up to NC or ST/painting black. It seems that most of us dealing with a pwBPD (or BPD traits) experienced a significant period of time in which that person engaged in some or all of the following behaviour: raging, lying, cheating, manipulating, devaluing, pulling and pushing, recycling, dismissing, ... .

Going NC can be a way to protect oneself from this behaviour once you reach a point where it becomes intolerable and maintaining further contact is too painful. But often the pwBPD has been so effective at making you feel guilty and responsible, that maintaining NC feels horrible too. It does often hurt the pwBPD -- they might block you out and focus on other things, or in some cases truly move on and forget the non-BPD partner. But it seems they can also feel crushed by a feeling of rejection, and what is so frustrating is they so often seem not to have any awareness that their own behaviour has pushed us away.

By contrast, at least speaking just from my experience with my ex, the silent treatment or painting black on the part of the pwBPD can be a sudden explosion, triggered by possibly trivial things or imagined slights or paranoid jealousies. Of course, the pwBPD will insist that their rage or discarding is justified. Only you can decide what the truth is -- and pwBPD can be VERY good at spinning a story.

In any case, I have tried to maintain limited contact with my ex, because I really feel she is in a lot of pain and is an emotionally distressed person and I'm living across the country from her now and therefore feel relatively safe. I feel like I've worked through the worst of my anger and hurt and sense of betrayal. I still have terrible moments, but it's nice to feel like I'm keeping the channel open if she ever needs to talk (as a friend -- no way would I ever get back into a romantic relationship with her). So I understand your question and I think limited contact is good for my self-esteem, because I'm not just slamming the door and leaving my ex to deal on her own. But I think many people posting here are dealing with much more difficult/dangerous pwBPD and the only way to protect oneself in those cases may be NC.

Does that answer make sense to you?

[SoMadSoSad]

I'm not so sure that I believe that the intentions are different. In both cases, the intent to protect the individual doing the action.

I can tell you that my pwBPD finds my going NC to be punitive in nature. In fact, she's right, it is! It is the consequence that she must endure for her actions.

Sure, when you view NC from the side of the victim, it is beneficial; but when viewed from the other side, it is punitive. Their decisions caused the NC. They (sometimes) feel shame, hurt, abandonment, and reject. The very things that their actions were designed to prevent has been created. How can it be anything but punitive from the pwBPD's position?

NC is for you to heal and not worry about her. Usually we go no contact because further contact hurts us.

[Suspicious1]

I suppose in my mind, I see no contact as just that - not having contact. Walking away and not looking back. The relationship has ended, so there's no reason to stay in touch and prolong the painful feelings. The Silent Treatment seems to be very much about communication, and those who use it seem to do so as a temporary measure rather than as a permanent exit from the relationship.

[SoMadSoSad]

I suppose in my mind, I see no contact as just that - not having contact. Walking away and not looking back. The relationship has ended, so there's no reason to stay in touch and prolong the painful feelings. The Silent Treatment seems to be very much about communication, and those who use it seem to do so as a temporary measure rather than as a permanent exit from the relationship.

Yea pretty much.

[Meili]

NC is for you to heal and not worry about her. Usually we go no contact because further contact hurts us.

And, they do their actions to protect themselves and stop their hurt. Yet, we seem to vilify them for doing so. That just seems wrong to me.

[Meili]

I suppose in my mind, I see no contact as just that - not having contact. Walking away and not looking back. The relationship has ended, so there's no reason to stay in touch and prolong the painful feelings. The Silent Treatment seems to be very much about communication, and those who use it seem to do so as a temporary measure rather than as a permanent exit from the relationship.

I understand that, but that does not change the net outcome.

[SoMadSoSad]

NC is for you to heal and not worry about her. Usually we go no contact because further contact hurts us.

And, they do their actions to protect themselves and stop their hurt. Yet, we seem to vilify them for doing so. That just seems wrong to me.

You're right vilifying is wrong. We are just hurt by the way it happens.

[Suspicious1]

I suppose in my mind, I see no contact as just that - not having contact. Walking away and not looking back. The relationship has ended, so there's no reason to stay in touch and prolong the painful feelings. The Silent Treatment seems to be very much about communication, and those who use it seem to do so as a temporary measure rather than as a permanent exit from the relationship.

I understand that, but that does not change the net outcome.

The net outcome being that it's painful for the other person? Yes, I suppose it is. But the intent is different, which is why the silent treatment is seen as the more negative action. The whole purpose of it is gain some kind of advantage by hurting someone else. If NC hurts the other person (which it does - in fact for someone with such a fear of rejection it's probably one of the worst things you can do to them) then that's awful, but it's not a deliberate action to cause pain.

I've physically pushed someone away from me before to stop them from hurting me. I did it to benefit myself: to stop them from causing me physical pain and stay safe, I inflicted pain on them, but that was the only way I could escape from the bad things they wanted to do to me. What I didn't do was to deliberately hurt them in order to make myself feel better or to communicate my displeasure with them. The end result is the same though - I hurt them in order to benefit myself.

[Meili]

The net outcome being that it's painful for the other person? Yes, I suppose it is. But the intent is different... .

But, that's just it, the intent is NOT different! The intent is protection; whether it is NC or ST, the intent is to protect the person doing the action. The pwBPD uses the ST to protect themselves from their own pain. That's the genesis of their thought process. If it were anything else, such a person would not be classified as BPD, the would be a sociopath with, while closely related, is actually different. In that situation, the ST would be done out of complete malice rather than as a by-product of self-protection. Can you see the difference?

The whole purpose of it is gain some kind of advantage by hurting someone else. If NC hurts the other person (which it does - in fact for someone with such a fear of rejection it's probably one of the worst things you can do to them) then that's awful, but it's not a deliberate action to cause pain.

Knowing that NC causes someone who suffers from debilitating fears of abandonment and pain, and knowing that going NC will trigger those fears and thus causing pain, isn't the person going NC actually doing so to "gain some kind of advantage by hurting someone else"? In this both the cases of ST and NC, the advantage being protection of self at the cost of pain to another.

I've physically pushed someone away from me before to stop them from hurting me. I did it to benefit myself: to stop them from causing me physical pain and stay safe, I inflicted pain on them, but that was the only way I could escape from the bad things they wanted to do to me. What I didn't do was to deliberately hurt them in order to make myself feel better or to communicate my displeasure with them. The end result is the same though - I hurt them in order to benefit myself.

This is a prime example of what I'm talking about. The pwBPD is not committing their actions out of malice, but rather self-protection. As stated above, that is a completely different disorder. In the mind of the pwBPD, they are merely protecting themselves from the pain just as you were protecting yourself from physically pushing the other person away. Why is one right and the other wrong if both people are simply trying to protect their respective persons?

[Lilyroze]

NC for us is to protect us from further harm and is putting time and focus into ourselves and has nothing to do with the other party. Silent treatment and painting black for them is to reinforce a distorted view they have of us. I think nons do it as a first resort and BPDs do it as a first defense

You are completely right for us non's it is either a last resort to keep from being hurt more, feelings not acknowledged or if need to heal. To the BPD's or UPBD it is a first defense or to punish.

[Suspicious1]

I disagree because I don't think the malice and self-protection are mutually exclusive - I think the ST (whether done by a person with BPD or not) is done with the intent of punishment or manipulation, with the intent of re-engaging when the other person has shown enough contrition. In NC, the purpose is to walk away.

Some BPD people, when they leave a relationship, are going NC and are never heard from again. Some nons are intending to re-engage when their partner has learned 'their lesson' from the ST. I know for sure that people who have given me the ST in the past have come back and said "I'm talking to you again now you've apologised, but don't you ever do or say x to me again". That to me says they were using the withdrawal of communication to punish, not to walk away and get on with their lives.

[Meili]

I disagree because I don't think the malice and self-protection are mutually exclusive

To the contrary, they must be mutually exclusive because malice is an offensive measure which is the exact opposite of a measure done from a defense position.

But, even if you were to argue that the act that can be viewed as having a malicious effect can be viewed from a defensive position, we are left right back where I started. That is that NC, when viewed from the pwBPD's position is punitive and malicious in nature. It is the exact same thing what we feel from being split back and subjected to the ST.

- I think the ST (whether done by a person with BPD or not) is done with the intent of punishment or manipulation, with the intent of re-engaging when the other person has shown enough contrition.

What about when the ST is done with a defensive purpose because the person giving the ST is simply trying to escape the pain that they are feeling? They move away from the pain until such a time as the pain is not longer too strong for them to handle? Like when:

I know for sure that people who have given me the ST in the past have come back and said "I'm talking to you again now you've apologised, but don't you ever do or say x to me again".

But they don't vocalize that it was for punishment. Once can easily argue, the person utilizing ST was hurt, and until that pain was relieved they couldn't communicate. That doesn't make it punishment. I'd curious to know how many, who subjected to the ST, were told that the ST was a punishment for their actions?

In NC, the purpose is to walk away.

As is the ST; the time spent away is simply different. And, once again, the motivation, self-preservation, is the same in both instances. Yet, one is deemed fair, just, and right, and the other is condemned.

[Dhand77]

In my personal circumstances, ST was ALWAYS used to punish me. It was used as a means to make me apologize for circumstances that I probably shouldn't have had to apologize for in a normal relationship. I'm used to "talking things out", so silent treatment was always used in a punitive sense by my ex.

It was also used as a punitive action after my discard. I was discarded over the phone, so in my emotionally disregulated state, I must have sent a dozen emails begging to talk face to face. These emails were only replied to with MORE silent treatment. When she did answer, it was only to bash me with put downs and abuse and I was told "her life is no longer my business". So, I did what she asked, I went NC. A few weeks later, some of her attempts to bait me out of NC worked, I was angry at this point, and I really let her have it in an email because I finally found out about the cheating. The next morning, she shoulder checked me outside of our workplace, and threatened me with a restraining order.

I've been NC ever since, 2 days ago marks 2 months. Now, clearly my actions for going NC is not punitive. I was basically left with no other choice. I can't risk my job over a relationship. Not a day goes by, where I don't want to message her. At some point EVERYDAY I want to reach out, after all, she was a huge part of the last 4 years of my life. But the question is, what version of my ex would I get if I did break NC? Would it just be more ST? Would it be more put downs? Would she place a RO on me? Would she be receptive? I just don't know, and it's a risk I just can't take. I've been hurt ENOUGH in all of this. Am I actively trying to hurt her with my NC? Absolutely not.

In my experience, her ST is to punish me. My NC is to protect myself. While they may be the "same" the purpose is clearly different.

[HoneyB33]

The difference is that NC for us is protecting ourselves from ppl who are abusing us. Abuse is never ok, no matter what issues a person has going on in their lives. NC for us is to realize that no matter what has happened, we need to protect ourselves from ABUSE. These ppl who go ST on us are using it TO abuse us. To try and force us to be different in a way that is unhealthy for us. It's their form of "protection" but it is abusive and cruel. When we go NC it's us saying that we can not take abuse any more, and that we need to heal ourselves. When a person does a ST it is TO abuse someone. It's not a form of protection in which they are relying upon themselves to heal and do what they need to grow in life. It's trying to make an exterior person responsible for their issues. It's trying to make someone else respond in a way that they want. Wether it's to force them to beg, to take blame, or to "shut up" from telling the truth--it is all designed within controlling someone else. It's abuse. NC is not abuse. NC is saying that we are done with abuse, and that we respect ourselves, take responsibility for ourselves (rather than trying to control an exterior person) and to do what we need to heal and be a healthy person. NC is the so that we can be healthy, ST is to continue in a cycle that is destructive and unhealthy. This is NOT a person taking a step back to help and heal themselves. To really focus on what they need. I think you are possibly projecting your own intentions as theirs, and that isn't the case here. This person isn't doing this for what they need. They use ST's to harm another person to "get" what they need. And that's the issue. Abusing someone and making them afraid is never a way to get a need met. This is NOT someone trying to do what they need for themselves. This is someone trying to force YOU to do what they want that is destructive to YOU. It. Is. Abuse.

[Meili]

OK, fair enough Honey883, but, can you please explain to me how going NC, which damages the other person, is not abuse on the other person?

It certainly seems to fit the definition of abuse. It has a cruel affect on the other person. It is exercising control over the other person (ant way you spin it, NC, ST, and splitting black exercise control over the other person).

Also, everyone keeps ignoring the splitting black component of all of this... .

We split them black in order to go NC. How are we any better than they are? Aren't we both doing it out of defense of our selves? (That question also keeps getting ignored in all of the rationalizations of why ST is bad, but NC is good.)

[Dhand77]

OK, fair enough Honey883, but, can you please explain to me how going NC, which damages the other person, is not abuse on the other person?

It certainly seems to fit the definition of abuse. It has a cruel affect on the other person. It is exercising control over the other person (ant way you spin it, NC, ST, and splitting black exercise control over the other person).

Also, everyone keeps ignoring the splitting black component of all of this... .

We split them black in order to go NC. How are we any better than they are? Aren't we both doing it out of defense of our selves? (That question also keeps getting ignored in all of the rationalizations of why ST is bad, but NC is good.)

I don't consider my ex "split black". Did the things she did to me suck? Yes. But I know the difference between bad deeds and a bad person. She's a product of her environment. It doesn't make her "bad" but it doesn't make her "great" either. All it would take for me to finally break NC, is her just admitting she "f-ed up". That's it. Unfortunately, she's incapable of that. She's incapable of saying sorry. I don't hate her, even though it's felt like she's made it her life's mission to to get me to hate her. But, I can't go through what she did to me again, hell, I'm still getting through it. I wish nothing but the best for her and her children, but I can't endure anymore pain or abuse. I CAN'T reach out because it's become a game of control for her, and it's a game I chose to no longer play.

[Meili]

All it would take for me to finally break NC, is her just admitting she "f-ed up".

Doesn't that simply make the NC really a ST by the definitions that people are giving here?

Also, it appears to me, while it may not apply to you, that many of the people posting here are splitting their x black. So many are talking about how crazy their x is and how they were wrong/victimized. That's the very thing that the pwBPD is doing when the split the person black.

Can you see my problem with all of this based on the above?

[bunny4523]

Hello,

I was reading up on the NC a little more through this website and it does seem to be being used out of context.  The no contact is suggested to be put in place once you have decided it's too much for you to handle (whether they force a breakup or you decide you want out) and it is designed to be temporary.  The chart I read says 6-8 weeks.  It is for you to reflect and clear the confusion in your own head and heal so you can get to the place of:

"releasing with grace" which is defined as: I'm exiting the relationship and my partner wants me to stay at some level.  I'm letting go with grace, compassion and dignity for everyone.  I can handle the limited communications needed to do this and I can keep them under control without revisiting the old relationship dramas.  I am not too emotional vulnerable to handle this.

Deciding to let go does not mean you need to implement the silent treatment, I think it just means you deal with your closure when you are ready and strong again.   

No Contact is defined as: I'm exiting the relationship and for now I need hte avoidance/withdrawal of "no contact" because I am emotionally vulnerable (contact is hurtful and upsetting) or because I am angry or resentful. 

Hope this helps.  Many of us seem to struggle with the thought of NEVER contacting our significant BPD partner again.  I don't think that is what "no contact" means.  I think it is more like "if your hand is on a hot plate.  It hurts, you can see it burning, remove your hand from the flame".  Process the pain, rinse in cold water, ice it, bandage it, apply your medication, even see a Dr. if you need to." 

Once the hand is healed, that's a different story.  it's your call if you want to put your hand back or near that flame... .

That is my perspective, hope it offers some insight for you!

Bunny-

[steelwork]

But, that's just it, the intent is NOT different! The intent is protection; whether it is NC or ST, the intent is to protect the person doing the action. The pwBPD uses the ST to protect themselves from their own pain.

Meili, I think this is a great insight.

Anyhow, we can't ever know what's in the mind and heart of another person, and people might do things for more than one reason. (Malice AND self-protection.) To an extent, it's beside the point to worry about intentions.

What about this: when communication ceases, it matters a lot how it stops. Does the other person simply stop responding? Just dead air? Did they leave some avenues open, leave the door open a maddening crack, or did they slam it forcefully? What were their last words?

You can control how you go no-contact. You can give the other person a calm, reasoned explanation. If you want to leave the door open for future communications, you can say that. If you never want to talk to them again, you can say that. You can say it in a way that is truthful but not angry.

ST typically involves none of those compassionate, mature acts of preparation for silence.

What do you think?

[HoneyB33]

Meili I can understand where you see these things from, and I can relate in a lot of ways because I struggled with it too.

My X isn't split black because well, I don't have BPD. So I don't see a person as fully evil, or fully good. I see that my ex abused me. I see that my ex made me feel like I was worthless when I needed just 5 minutes to take care of myself. I see that my ex treated me in a way that was so selfish, the shock of what she did has taken two years to sort through. My ex abused me. She might be damaged, but she never has the right to abuse me, and yet she thinks that she somehow does have the right. I don't split my ex black, I see the truth. Splitting someone black is a part of their disorder. It's not us generalizing these ppl. My ex is literally crazy. I'm not just being a jerk. And I'm definitely not a jerk because all I ever did was try to help her. And what did she do? She tried to force me to feel the worthlessness she felt inside. She repaid me evil for good.

I get that maybe you want to see your ex in the light of "they're hurting and damaged and trying to protect themselves". But I know for me, all I got was abuse in exchange for my best efforts. All I got was made to feel worthless and like nothing, when all I tried to do was lift her up. All I got was a decrease in my life, a negative value, in exchange for giving my best.

I feel sorry for my ex, but that doesn't mean I want anything to do with her. She might be broken, but she is still responsible for her choices. And her choice is to use me, and treat me like I'm no more than a piece of trash that she's done with. Who wants that in their life? I don't care any more about how she feels, because SHE doesn't care at ALL about how I feel. And I damn sure demand equality in my relationships. That is my right. In fact, she sickly wants me to feel like the opposite of who I am; worthless, and valueless. That IS sick. And that is not someone I want in my life. I choose NC because of how this person treats ME. Because I am valuable, and because she will always try to make me believe that I am not.

This is not abuse on the other pwBPD, because it us stopping THEM from abusing us. NC isn't just a loose choice we make, it's usually the very last resort a person has. When someone is so destructive, so abusive in a person's life, they have NO other choice. And that is a sad day. Because we do care about these ppl. But the cold reality is that THEY do not care about us.

We are not abusive because we are trying to stop someone else's abuse. Yes, we are trying to protect ourselves, but it is in light of someone actually harming us. Their defensive is TO harm us. That is very different. Yes, it has an effect on them. And most of us spent sometimes years in these relationships trying to walk on eggshells around their hyper-synsativity. The truth is, these are their issues. It's not our job to make them feel better about it. We are responsible to ppl, not for them. These ppl make use tip toe around all their fears, which basically makes us a bull in a china shop. And when their issues get triggered they try to punish us, rather than deal with their issues. That is the root of all of this. It's not my job to be responsible for someone else's problems. And it's definitely not my job to tolerate all that tip-toeing only to step a little too far, and be drastically punished. That simply, is not how I want to live my life. And not what I deserve. NC is about what I deserve. It's no longer about them.

This isn't mean, because it's the only way for us to equalize out of all of this. In normal relationships, lets say a person gives %50 to themselves, and %50 to a partner. That is healthy. In these relationships, it turns into us giving %98 and them giving %2. And the insanity is that they want to pretend that they are the one giving! Or that their 2% is equal, and it's not. NC is the only way to equalize this in ourselves after a person has 1. Taken so much from us, and 2. We have been punished and beaten down for THEIR problems.

I'm not sure if I have answered all your questions. I hope this helps. Honestly, I can relate a lot to what you say. I had a lot of trouble with NC. I felt like it was wrong and selfish of me. But I know what I was missing in the picture was that I was completely focused on what other ppl "deserved", but I was completely absent from that picture. It's taken me a long time to change that scale, and I think you might be in the same struggle. This isn't about them anymore. The truth is that in these relationships, the scale was already tipped way too far. But somehow in our broken minds, we still think we need to give more. It's not true.

[steelwork]

What about this: when communication ceases, it matters a lot how it stops. Does the other person simply stop responding? Just dead air? Did they leave some avenues open, leave the door open a maddening crack, or did they slam it forcefully? What were their last words?

If you don't mind my asking, Meili, are you in contact? If not, who ended it and how?

[once removed]

great discussion. i just wanted to add this: "No Contact" the Right Way and the Wrong Way

[Meili]

Yes, Steel, I can agree with that. I wonder how many of us did the compassionate thing when going NC vs. just shutting the door on our pwBPD?

Honestly, I think that's probably where my struggle with all of this stems from. I just slammed the door on her without any real explanation other than: "I'm tired of being abused, I'm done and outta here."

She might be damaged, but she never has the right to abuse me, and yet she thinks that she somehow does have the right.

I don't dispute that no person has a right to abuse another person.

What I find interesting is this:

I don't split my ex black, I see the truth. Splitting someone black is a part of their disorder. It's not us generalizing these ppl. My ex is literally crazy. I'm not just being a jerk. And I'm definitely not a jerk because all I ever did was try to help her. And what did she do? She tried to force me to feel the worthlessness she felt inside. She repaid me evil for good.

When they split us black, they truly believe that we are what they see. Just like in the idealization phase, we truly are wonderful people that they love.

When we are split black, they truly hate us and believe that we harmed them. Let's face, it we did IN THEIR EYES. Just like in our eyes, they abused us. They certainly don't think or believe that they did any such thing however.

This is why I keep pointing out the POV part of my problem with all of this. My compassion causes me to not only look at my POV, but theirs. They are people too. They have their own thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and worries. Now, granted, theirs are tainted; I won't dispute that. But, theirs are just as real to them as ours are to us. I think that is getting lost in the shuffle here.

I get that maybe you want to see your ex in the light of "they're hurting and damaged and trying to protect themselves".

It isn't that I want to see it that way, it is that is the only way to see it.

But I know for me, all I got was abuse in exchange for my best efforts.

But, why did you get the abuse? Was it because she was truly evil and malicious, or was it because she suffers from BPD and was using the only tools that she has available to her in her mind to protect herself?

I feel sorry for my ex, but that doesn't mean I want anything to do with her.

I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone have anything to do with an abusive ex if they don't want to!

I choose NC because of how this person treats ME.

And, my point all along is that they choose what they do because of how they believe and feel that they have been treated. Please do not take my comments to mean that I'm trying to justify anyone's abusive behaviors or actions. I am not. I am merely trying to understand why our hurting/damaging a pwBPD is somehow looked on as favorable and when they do the same thing, protect themselves, they are looked at with disdain and a lack of compassion.

This is not abuse on the other pwBPD, because it us stopping THEM from abusing us.

I keep hearing that, but I've yet to see anyone provide anything that resembles a logical explanation as to why it is acceptable for us to abuse back or inflict punitive punishment on them (assuming that NC actually causes them pain)? Sure, NC is the only means that most of us have to stop the bleeding. I know that it was the only means that I had at the time (and probably still have for that matter). I certainly would not expect someone to stand still while another person hit them repeatedly.

But, I think that Steel answered my question. It is more about how we go NC than the NC itself. It's whether or not we utilize compassion in doing so.

NC isn't just a loose choice we make, it's usually the very last resort a person has.

Do you not think that each and every action by a pwBPD is viewed, to them, as an act of last resort based on our perceived actions?

We are not abusive because we are trying to stop someone else's abuse.

This argument fails every time we complain about the actions of our pwBPD. After all, they are trying to stop the pain that they feel is being inflicted upon them (the abuse that they think that they are suffering) each time they act out. If it is acceptable for us to use painful tactics to stop the pain that we feel, why is it not acceptable for the pwBPD?

We are responsible to ppl, not for them.

And, yet, so many of us (myself included here) complain about the pwBPD totally ignoring and not protecting our feelings. hhmmmm... .

But I know what I was missing in the picture was that I was completely focused on what other ppl "deserved", but I was completely absent from that picture... .

This isn't about them anymore.

Well, I'm not focused on what my pwBPD needs, but I do believe that each person, no matter how broken they are (unless, they are truly sociopaths and commit harm for no other reason than their own enjoyment) deserve compassion. Does that mean that we should not protect ourselves? Nope, that's not what I'm saying.

But, it seems like the compassion is lost. It seems like so much focus is put on the pwBPD's actions that we ignore our role in all of this. It seems like we forget that pwBPD is hurt and hurting.

[Meili]

If you don't mind my asking, Meili, are you in contact? If not, who ended it and how?

I don't mind you asking at all. No, I'm not in contact and have had NC for about a month I believe.

It ended very poorly. It ended with her calling my office and then getting angry with me because I would not give her a date and time certain that I would call her back or meet with her face-to-face. That was followed by harsh emails and text messages that went unanswered.

We had an agreement that we wouldn't communicate for two weeks. She violated that agreement on multiple occasions. So, when the two week mark rolled around, I ignored it because I knew that if I didn't any communication would have been met with more anger from her because I was doing the very thing that she was afraid that I'd do; abandon her. Since I was abandoning her either way, I saw no point in prolonging the pain that we were both feeling.

[Meili]

great discussion. i just wanted to add this: "No Contact" the Right Way and the Wrong Way

Thank you once removed!