BPDFamily.com

Hi All

should a person with BPD be held accountable or should it just be glossed over.

should their lies be exposed or should a light be shined on it and illuminated.

discuss

Hi married21years 

I do think each person in a perfect world would be held accountable for what they do. Such things are often left to God to unknot.  :)

Also in a perfect world, everyone can see lies from everyone else. Would it help you to see lies for what they are?

Do you have a specific situation in your mind?

hi GB

unfortunately for me i am an atheist, and in CODA. my higher power is my wifes grandmother lol.

the world is not perfect, i accept that.

i will expose the truth in my relationship. i will not cover things up anymore. 

but what do others think. 

It would depend on what the goal is M2Y.  It could be to inflict pain, or get revenge, or force a borderline into treatment, either because we have compassion for our exes or want to stop them from hurting anyone else, or to get validation for our version of what happened, or it could be to detach emotionally, find peace, and move forward.  So what's the goal?

I think we as nons should try and uncover all the lies and deceit. Just for ourselves.
It hurts, yet it also opens our eyes to the truth.

a BPD can never really be held accountable.
whatever acts they commit, it's always because someone behaves in such a way that they only could do what they did.

In defense of her cheating, she said:
"you forced me to, you never gave me any attention"
while it was her actually that had been pushing away any attention and intimacy for over 2 years... .

In the end it's always someone else's fault.

I believe in karma so I think that all people will be held accountable for their actions at some point. In regards to my BPD ex, I would love for her to be held accountable for what she did to me but I also accept that it is not my responsibility to make this happen. I am just one in a line of many men whom she has screwed over and she will continue to do this because she can seemingly get away with it so easily. It does upset me that she could mess up my life so badly, emotionally traumatize me, take me for more than $3k in less than a month and just continue on with her life as if nothing happened but there is nothing I can do to stop this. Even the thought of attempting to make her own up for her actions doesn't entice me because it would require communicating with her and this is a losing proposition in itself.

married, in your case - I agree with heel. You say that you will expose the lies but I would ask in what manner you will do this and what is the end goal? I think many would caution that embarking on any venture to expose/reconcile things with your ex could be a suicide mission so just be careful. Your ex is not on a level playing field and you may have no idea the things she will do/say against you when confronted, even if your goal is righteous and noble in itself.

i was vilified and driven out of a small community by the lies.

i will release the truth and clear my name.  |iiii

then i will walk away!

Think well about it. They are masters of manipulation.
She has probably anticipated it.

My ex's friend told me I was obsessive and unable to manage my feelings. Married... .if only you would know me. I am the opposite of that and , given my job, I have TONS of people who can say who I am.
But his friend was convinced.

Do not give her another weapon to hurt you.

i have evidence in her own hand

So you want validation for your truth, is that the goal m2y?

not my truth the truth!

there have been denials about affairs whilst projecting onto me for years.

i will just release the evidence 

Married21,

I went through a phase where I also felt that i needed to bring mine to book for the lies and deception. I'm glad I didn't. It wouldn't be perceived well by others and can actually be used against us as Unforgiven mentioned.

What are some ways to channel that energy towards a new endeavour? Is there something in your recovery that you are working towards at the moment?

I once heard someone say. "The best revenge is living a great life."

And what will that give you?

closure

shut the door burn the bridges and walk away  :)

Well, personally, i can walk away with my integrity intact. I kept my end of the bargain. Was loyal and understanding and forgiving against all odds, and held up to my own values.

In retrospect, that's much more important to me then proving whatever fault there was on her end, i take my peace with just knowing whatever she tried to hide and the inextricable web of lies she spun to cover it all up.

and so did i, but she has convinced her flying monkeys i wasn't this is the lie i am correcting.

and she lied to my daughter.

the truth is the only way my daughter will get her family back, she hates the family because of the lies. the truth will fix this!

i may get hurt, but my daughter needs her family back!

how about the possibility that fighting fire with fire will reinforce her narrative to these people?

Well done Wounded. That is a very mature response. It takes courage not to behave in the same self defeating ways as a pwBPD. At the end of the day people notice.

Someone came up to me the other day and said. "Well done, just keep doing what you are doing (regarding my silence) in response to my ex's vicious lies" She said "people notice your integrity."

Sometimes we think that everyone believes their stories. It's not the case

I totally understanding wanting the truth to be made known to people and wanting to clear your name but I would just warn that by trying to accomplish this, you are putting yourself at risk for crazy-making behavior from her that may cause you to look even worse in the end. Do not underestimate the lengths that this person will go to in order to make you out to be the bad guy.

Closure is valid, many of us look for closure once these relationships end, and find giving it to ourselves ends up being more powerful.  Is there a way to get closure without the carnage m2y?

 C<||| unforgiven II

sorry cant post on your thread

Yesterday it was my birthday. My friends brought me to the Beach and gave me lots of presents and showered me with affection. I felt better and felt whole again for a while.
Then I get a whatsapp. It is from one of my colleagues , the one he flirted with just in front of me.
She even told me " you seem, you are sabotaging this relationship as you feel you are unworthy of love". What a fine psychologist.

She was happy for his attenzione. She is not my friend.
So she texts me :"How are you?" I could FEEL  the pity.
I ignored her. I do not care if she lives near me and I do not care if she will think I am the crazy one. She would think it anyway. My gutt feeling is that she is a flying monkey of his.

My friends gave me affection and presents. What did he vive to me? A flying monkey.
What a nice present.
The present I chose to give to myself is not checking the blblockecalls or  texts.
This is my gift for me.

but well done!

here for you. let him go and stop beating yourself up 

My take on this is dependant on how her lies affect you.

In my case Thmy ex wife and exgf painted me black to their friends. This has had no effect on me. The people who know me know its not true and those that dont dont matter. If however these lies started to have an effect I.e. I was harrassed in the street or it put a job in jeapordy then I would refute them.

The problem with trying to show people are crazy is that you run the risk of looking crazy. Dont turn it into a crusade. Present the facts and walk away. I did this in the court case im going through with my ex wife. The lengths she has gone to to show she doesnt have anything wrong with her have made her look even more crazy.

well done.

i lost my position as a volunteer firefighter, and medical first res-ponder.

i lost my daughter all my friends in the community, and was forced to leave the country and state again.

no one in our original country believes her BS

we emigrated and the new friends didn't know me and believed her lies.

i will present the facts and walk away!  |iiii

ABSOLUTELY they should be held fully accountable for abuse and lies. In the American court of law Bpd or any other personality disorder can NOT be used as an insanity defense. It has been made clear by the numerous  psychologists someone with this disorder can and does know right from wrong. Ted Bundy had ASPD. Jodi Arias has BPD. They know exactly what they do.

thx thats what my therapist says. 

They are VERY good at pity parties. This is rock solid. If it's good enough for court it's good enough for me. When I finally found my daughter after my ex ran away, we had three psychology experts explain BPD to the Judge. Although the doctor that checked out the evidence seems to think she strong NPD. But they all said pwBPD know right from wrong but they choose to do wrong.

 C<||| married21years, one time, I decided to keep out of a huge drama scenario. It's not all flowery--I've regretted my not "taking action" choice from time to time. What made it even harder is that the "smarter" side of my support group thought I should have escalated to legal action with the drama choice.

Yes--if you take the peaceful option--you don't get sweet "revenge feelings".

If you're concerned about your tarnished reputation, know that I was too. But what I've found is that the people that matter in the long run will ask you about your truth. With these people, if you seek it, you can find trust with them again.

For the doubters, they will probably doubt you even more after you do your "release info". I'd consider that the people who can't see nearer to the truth aren't people you want to keep around you anyway. Don't stick with fools. Fools can't be counted on to put out fires or do CPR, so consider that you are allowed to care less about them.

 C<||| hurting300, for some people (custody / legal issues aside), the perks of a peaceful choice are that a couple of years later, you have a cleaner conscience. While you attended said "pity parties", you chose not to sit in the persecutor chair for the final "bash".

Have hope, it gets better.  |iiii

It seems like this question was posed with a definite answer in mind ("yes", so now it remains to be said what it means to be held accountable.

Do you just mean you want to clear your name or something else?

Do you mean that your ex should make restitution in some way? How? Is that even possible? If so, can you make it happen?

Or do you mean revenge?

The term "held accountable" is slippery.

she will never make restitution.

all i can do is let the truth come out get closure and move on.

she will be a victim of her own actions, people other than i will decide what happens but she will not be allowed to continue to use them without having the facts.

she continues to this day pedaling her lies and slandering me. this will stop

What does closure mean to you?

M21Y, it's hard to answer an emotionally biased question like this in a meaningful way... .it's like asking "should we avenge bad people that kill helpless puppies"... .the facts are really important. What does avenge mean (shot with a gun or write a letter to the editor)? What do we mean by kill (shot a family pet for trespassing or worked in an animal shelter)?

Stage I of detachment is to just feel our feelings (which you have done for a while now) and to start working with them.

You've acknowledged knowing that anger is a secondary feeling - its hiding from ourselves in many ways. Your therapists has suggested that you are over indulging. Some of us are too. It's a fine line.

Anyway, can you re-ask this question with some facts attached to it. I've read your posts and I really don't have a balanced sense at all of what happened.

Can you tell us your side of the story, your wife's, and your daughters? Dial us in a bit. It will be easier to answer a situational question.

PS: Can we get past the Wizard of Oz, Harry Potter , and Gangsta lingo... .its not helping you stay grounded, dawg  

Hi Married21Years -

I'm just going to tell you what I did, and the result.

My exhBPD sent emails to my parents and others. (Not sure to whom, exactly). My parents knew it was coming because I had warned them that it was the type of action my ex would probably do, and lo and behold, he did exactly that.

My parents told me one thing, and that was the email he sent to them made HIM look bad, not me. That is the exact opposite of what my ex intended, and that may happen to you. You might look bad to others because you are out for revenge.

So if you don't care that's one thing. I am also not so invested anymore in caring what other people think of me or my life. It's my life. I also don't think other peoples drama is attractive, in fact, when people have excessive "created" drama in their lives I tend to avoid them.

The opinion I care about is my own. How I think about me. If I did the right thing. In the end, I do believe that my higher power will be proud of how I acted, as I am proud about how I acted and reacted to the belittling instigated by my ex.

I'm not oblivious to the fact that I helped things get out of control with my ex. I did not know how to validate anyone or anything, and I was immature in some of my knee jerk responses. All of that contributed to an inferno.

I know better now, so I do better.

Bless you,

L

Exactly this!  :thought:

Why do you guys think borderlines need to do that?

That's why many BPDs end up loathing themselves, probably: they know right from wrong, yet they cannot "hold it togheter" because of their fears/impulses.

They cannot face shame, due to their self-loathing and the fact that they mostly see the world in terms of white/black; hence, inflexible psychological defence mechanisms kick in, and they end up painting you black.

From here, their self-victimization.

Pretty good!  So does knowing that take the power out of a borderline's blame?

I apologize but I think I may have misunderstood the question? Every person has too be held accountable for their actions in someway. Just because someone has BPD does not mean they get a free pass. BPD isn't like schizophrenia. BPD is merely a "bad personality" honestly. Nothing chemical like bipolar disorder. I don't believe in revenge because that's petty.

I have to disagree with the point that its not like other dissorders. There is a lot of evidence that shows the BPD brain differs. Firstly inpwBPD there is evidence of an over active insula. This is the part of the brain that deals with negative feelings. If this is the case then pwBPD will see everything as more negative than it is. This explains why my exgf hated the word nice. Nice to her was a throw away compliment. If something was nice then it was ok. If it was ok then it wasnt that good. If it wasnt that good then it was bad. Hence me saying you look nice turned from a compliment to a critisism.

Flying monkeys comes from out of the fog reference to proxy recruitment. have you read it ?

i posted a link.

 C<||| they know what they have done they chose a false reality to avoid pain.

i do not choose a false reality i feel the pain and i deal with it!

this is what happened on our twentieth anniversary, she got a tattoo to stop everyone telling her how lucky she was. as she was having affairs behind my back.

Every persons brain is different yes. But is isn't a Chemical disease of the brain. This is my point. It is PERSONALITY that's it. Can it be controlled with meds? No. The only thing that rarely works is "Talk Therapy". A depressed person deals with negative feelings differently as well but again that's a chemical imbalance. If someone is BPD it's literally a personality defect. Sad business it really is. In 99% of cases it's not the victims fault. By victim I mean the pwBPD

If you google BPD brain differences there are a few that can be seen. Another is that the hyperthalamus (I think) is smaller in a BPD brain. This part of the brain controls a lot of hormones. So potentially it could be a chemical thing with BPD. I witnessed with both my uBPD exs a number of hormone related behaviours and my personal unprofessional opinion is that BPD has a lot to do with hormone imbalance.

Behaviour like the angry outbursts followed by calm feels to me like a pressure relief valve going off. If thats the case then what is going on chemically in the BPD brain could explain a lot. Both my exs did a lot of cortisol reducing behaviours. One was intollerent to caffeine which increases cortisol. In her own words caffeine makes her crazy.

If you look at the behaviour patterns from idolisation to discard and compare it to what hormones you would expect to see at each stage then there for me is clue. During idolisation we have all the good hormones. Could this be countering the ones that produce the negative behaviour? The same effect is got from drugs and alcohol. Is this why pwBPD have a higher rate of substance abuse issues?

Yes I may be seeing what I want to see but as an engineer if there is a fault you look at all the symptoms and if it fits then thats probably the cause.

but they are aware and should be held accountable. otherwise they will never learn from the consequences of their actions.

they will never seak help. this is also a learned coping mechanism that is dysfunctional. reinforced by enablers, of which i was one!

Borderline personality disorder is a personality disorder, not an organic brain disease or hormone imbalance.  We know that because organic brain diseases or hormone imbalances can be changed or balanced with medication, where there is no medication that is effective for BPD.  The other way around is possible though EM: when we're stressed cortisol levels spike, and testosterone levels spike after intense exercise, as a couple of examples, so hormone levels are behavior- and mental state dependent, so it follows that someone who experiences extreme emotions, some of which result in extreme behaviors, are going to experience hormone level fluctuations too.

but by keeping making excuses for their behavior, they will embolden their Armour.

pwBPD have an inner hole in them. that is sad.

in my case she had an abortion at 15, then the next month her BF died in a car crash. and she says she internalized the guilt.

she has convinced herself she was forced into an abortion. the inner toxic shame is un-dealt with and repressed and she blames herself for him dying.

she used my love to recover and suppress her feelings for years. abusing and mistreating me, to get supply to reduce her pain.

but this is her journey, and she has to want to start it. at present she just wants to carry on as she is.

getting supply from people by claiming to be a victim of me.

she even tried to gaslight me claiming i hit her, when in fact she hit me in the face with her fist many years ago and recently with a log.

This area of medicine for me is like the ocean. We know a bit about it but only a fraction of it.

ASPD is a personalty dissorder where a genetic link has been possibly highlighted. Bi polar is a personality dissorder which is treated with medication.

Every day new discoveries are being made.

I agree that pwBPD are responsible for their actions and that therapy can help them. I do wonder if the success of therapy such as DBT may have something to do with brain plasticty. Could therapy be rewiring the bad behavior to good? If thats the case then it also points to a physical problem in the brain.

you cannot get a pwBPD treatment unless they want it, if a pwBPD dosn't want treatment you should not be in a relationship with them in my opinion. that is a boundary i have. if you have a serious issue, you need to take responsibility for it. if it is hurting other people and you dont deal with it you have to remove yourself.

this is my personal boundary, i feared for my family's safety so i immediately sought medical help many years ago. as i was having nightmares, i now realize it is CPTSD flashbacks.

but their safety was paramount!

Hi Married, I'm pretty resentful of my ex right now as the pain and destruction he's caused is immense. People with BPD seem to go around inflicting such pain on people who love them and impulsive or not I think they should be held accountable for their actions. If they’ve harmed you in some way and you have evidence proving this then I say point it out to them. How are they ever going to learn if you don’t? Maybe they'll seek therapy or maybe they won't, that's up to them, but maybe something will get through, at least for some, and they won't want to keep hurting people.

I don't know much about your personal circumstances or what your ex did, but it's terrible what happened to you, especially her deceiving your daughter. Personally, I wouldn’t get others involved as I don’t want to hurt him as he has me, but I can understand the hurt behind wanting to do this.

Married, have you shown your ex the evidence you have? Maybe give her a chance to apologise or make amends? I tried this with my ex and of course there’s been no apology just more blame shifting, even with strong evidence, however, I’m counting on his lucid moments when reality breaks through and he experiences guilt or sadness or whatever it is he feels. I’ve seen him like this on occasion, times when he expresses regret for some of the things he’s done to others. Not many moments like this, but I’ve been there. I am content knowing that one of these days a moment like this will arise and maybe, just for a moment, he’s sorry. Maybe, just for a moment he’ll realise that I never hurt him although I could have and that I was really there for him. Maybe just for a moment he'll hold himself accountable.

hi thanks, every time i have confronted her, she denied and convinced me her version of reality. she told a friend that she had cheated with a friend, then told me she just did that to not sound so sad. and yes she convinced me. doh!

this time i have kept the evidence under wraps to build a irrefutable case. the one that matters is my daughter, i cannot let her get sucked in with these lies like i did.

publishing the evidence is the only way to make my daughter safe! 

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