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There is no possible way to adequately capture the bizareness of of some of the things my wife has said or twisted in joint and single sessions with the Psychologist.

Also no possible way to adequately describe the skill and delicate touch at the P applied pressure... .soothed... wondered aloud about things... .spoke directly. 

Several times she said to my wife "I am your biggest advocate... ."

I have my individual session tomorrow where I should get more feedback.

Zero chance that my wife will agree to any sort of long term individual sessions with her.  She has "quit" a couple times and said she will not go back.  I didn't react... .but also didn't let her off the hook for her commitments.

The funniest one was her trying to claim that when she agreed to come with me "a few times" that she was agreeing to go to the sessions she had already attended... .and not any future sessions.

Somehow I avoided busting out laughing, and evenly told her that she was making a preposterous statement, that I would take her backing out as a statement about her value of me and our relationship.  She tried to engage is debate and I declined... .and went for a walk. 

Couple hours later she said she would follow through on her commitments and go.

At one point the P said "Honey... .I'm not trying to get in your head.  I need your help to understand how my treatment of FF is going."  Imagine a grandma saying that as she had cookies and milk available, sort of a "it's going to be alright tone"  My wife visibly relaxed after that.

As we left that P said  "FF wife... .let's at least have one more joint get together to wrap all this up and make sure we are all on the same page"  My wife didn't agree or disagree... .but again seemed to relax.

We had a joint phone call with P in room with my wife and I and our team of attorney's (for the legal matter I have ongoing).  Attorney's clarified my wife would not be involved... .that P would not be involved and that there was no way to imagine how they would have anything to add to legal matter. 

L said that we could focus on the process of therapy without wondering/worrying about that getting drug into court.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that P will want to bring my wife in once a month or so to "touch base" and when anxiety level goes down a bit, that she will dip her toe in the waters of individual therapy then.

Right now anxiety is too high and too much distrust of motives of everyone. 

FF

The skill of a good psychologist--what a marvel! And to think of doing what they do in real time too.

I imagine your wife is afraid both to go to session and not to go to session. And that that struggle will be an ongoing one. But it seems you're doing just fine in response to the uncertainty and the necessarily delicate pacing of the counseling.

Thank you for posting this description of the joint meeting. The statement, "I am your biggest advocate" is particularly striking to me. It's very, very hard to know what to say to a person voicing paranoid sentiments.

 
So the P walked a fine line of saying that her goal was to stabilize marriage... .without pointing any fingers at who was destabilizing it... .also without giving anyone a clean bill of health.

Time and time again she tried to shift focus away from us as a couple or individuals to "family stability".  Sort of a "it's not because you need this... .but because your family needs this approach"  Wife was and is very suspicious.

Yes when asked directly what she wanted to do... .or an outcome... .she shrugged her shoulders and said she didn't know.  Honestly sounded defeated when she said that... .

FF

"Family stability" probably puts responsibility on her and feels like she is at fault.

I've gone through the "help me understand how therapy with husband is going", too - because my husband couldn't think of anything that he needed to work on with the P. He thought I would be seeing her regularly; she didn't need to talk with me more after the one session, at least for now.

Honestly, from what I've heard my husband say, it sounds like he has a 'feeling' that something is 'wrong' with him emotionally, but he isn't sure what it is, except it is bad. He has been resistant to being really open even with his P, from what I can tell. He doesn't want to be the one who 'needs fixing' or who 'is the problem'. It's easier if I'm the one with the problem. It reminds me of the people who have dementia or Alzheimer's when they get really anxious about the fact that they don't remember things and know that they should be able to.

Planning seems hard for my husband, too - or maybe just the follow through part of that. Seems to be easier for him to be told what to do so he can avoid responsibility for the instability.

Hi FF.  I'm so glad you have such a supportive and skilled P to work with. 

I know you have worked with your P on techniques to help the kids and have been doing well.  I am curious though if she has any plans to address the clear parental alienation that is occurring in your home.  The way your wife belittles you and talks to you is unacceptable and is abusive not just to you but your kids as well (IMO more so for the kids).  I just wonder if there is any way to slip something in there while you wife is actually attending seesions.  or do you think that would push things too much?

Wishing you the very best FF.

If your psychologist has mentioned "wrapping things up" in one more joint session, is that a clue that this phase of the counseling may be coming to an end?

If that's the case, do you suspect that the next phase will be some nitty-gritty practical guidance for you specifically?

Another thought: my husband has expressed the feeling that stable is boring... . his life is 'interesting' at least in his opinion. Maybe FFw thinks this way, too - or any stable that requires her not to 'express' her emotions is boring and not 'real'.

Kate Cat made an interesting point about the P possibly wrapping things up and working with you. If she does that, it may be that she feels it is more effective to work on your marriage through working with you, if your wife is paranoid and resistant.

Stable may feel "boring" to some. In our 12 step groups we talk about being addicted to drama. No drugs or alcohol required for that. For some people, the drama is stimulating. One topic is emotional sobriety- where we don't pick up the drama the way someone might choose to not pick up a drink.

I think depending on the person, the process of looking inward through T is just too much for them, or denial is strongly at play, especially if someone has a poor sense of self.

It could be that the P decides that FF is the person in the marriage that is more amenable to work with. That doesn't mean his wife doesn't need the T, but that she may be so resistant to it that the effort to help the marriage would be more effective with FF.

Totally guessing here... .but I think I know the P pretty well.  My guess is that she wants to "end" on a good note and leave her in a good place to come back, perhaps in a month... .perhaps as needed. 

The choice of keeping her going weekly or on a schedule would, IMO... .keep a bunch of pressure on her.  She doesn't deal well with pressure.

I certainly have some practical questions to ask today and at a minimum it is good for my P to see how she twists things.  She has done that to a couple things the P said.  For instance, my wife took a statement from me about being ok with doing something for her around the house to be... ."I will do this if you will do "Y"  "... . 

The P took about 5 minutes to clarify (calm down) my wife that there was NO LINKAGE.  Honestly wife didn't acknowledge it... but calmed.  P has said similar things and had wife "link" them.

Privately the P has explained that's what paranoid people do.  Create linkages where none exist.  They tend not to be ok with "blank space" and they fill it with links and confusion.

FF

Often specifically paranoid links that lead back to them. I believe one term is "ideas of reference."

I'm going to guess that your psychologist has most of the data on your wife that she needs now. By fortuitous circumstance, she even got to listen in on some dialogue involving lawsuit activity! (Lawsuits and paranoia go hand in glove, in my world.)

Now it is likely that her task turns to you, to help you deal.

A question for you: You've mentioned frequently that it is hard for you not to laugh at some of your wife's statements. Do you think laughter is in any way a form of not quite facing the facts yet? Of your mind's attempt to minimize? I really, really understand that this stuff could seem laughable. For me, at least, the sense of tragedy overwhelms other feelings.

Tragedy... .that is a very accurate word for what I feel.  Off to my session. 

Talk to you guys later.

FF

Tragedy... .that is a very accurate word for what I feel

I feel the same about my situation.  I watched my ex-husband for years make choices about his behavior that slowly but surely moved us toward divorce.  He couldn't see it, or he wouldn't see it.  He wouldn't acknowledge it and he wouldn't change it. 

And now here we are.  At this point, he is doing the same thing with his daughter--refusing to be accountable for his behavior toward her,  staying away from his grandson, and apparently making plans to run away to another state where he can re-write history and pretend that none of the destruction he caused ever even happened.

It's a tragedy.  That's exactly what it is.   

The session went pretty much at KateCat indicated.  P has seen more than enough.

Likely we'll do an extra session this week and due to schedule there will not be a "couples" session this Friday.  That's good.  Will give us some breathing and planning room.

Takeaways:  No doubt.  I am THE object of her paranoia.  I am THE bad one.  ALL others are good, HE is bad.  No good left in FF (from her point of view).

My wife is trying to compensate by asking God to "help her love me" in spite of my badness.  She will not let anything in her mind that challenges the bedrock truth... .HE IS BAD.

Time and time again she has "focused on doing the right thing" with disastrous results.

It's not all bad news (just mostly... .sigh).  She does see value in family stability and doing things "for the children".

Anything that is "for her husband"... .no chance.

As the temperature comes down (hopefully as legal things get resolved over next few months)... .history can be rewritten and we can revisit some issues.

Basically... .right now she is powder keg in room full of burning candles.

More later,

FF

Time and time again she has "focused on doing the right thing" with disastrous results.

My h said something similar -- he keeps trying to do the right thing but it keeps getting worse. (and I'm not rescuing him now)

The linkage thing and twisting is tricky to work with. Grey areas are uncomfortable, too, so that can be filled in with the twists as well.

FF, do you know if she has any plans or ideas to separate/ divorce?

FF, I know you have a lot going through your mind right now.  Take all the time you need to sort everything out in your head.

Just a side note: asking God to "help her love you"... .this holier-than-thou attitude was grating when I had to put up with it.  If you decide to stick it out with her and learn to let this attitude slide, I'll be in awe.

Yeah... .I am generally a conservative Baptist.  I take the Bible very seriously (generally this means I take it literally).  Basically... .if it plainly says something don't look for extra meaning.  By the same token, don't add stuff.  If something is said once or twice... .that kind of lets you know how important it is, otherwise God would have emphasized it much more.  Note:  That doesn't mean blow it off... .just have proper perspective.

Time and time again Jesus emphasized showing grace and love (perhaps he was making a point!   |iiii)

So to focus on a one liner and claim I am a sinner because I don't do "x"... .and not show grace in the process of telling me that.  Kinda leads me to believe you missed the "point" of the entire book.

The "brand" of Baptist that my wife gravitates towards... .and I don't like... .really likes to put God in charge of doing good things and "sinners" in charge of doing bad things.

How this plays out in a relationship is that I get credit for bad things, but any "good" decision I make is only because God intervened and changed my heart.  I get no credit for making a good decision.

Maddening to deal with... .

FF

Doubtful.  She has ideations that I do from time to time.  Generally divorce threats are gone from our r/s.  Once I stopped engaging on that issue... .it pretty much dried up.

The "brand" of Baptist she is focused on does NOT condone divorce... .pretty much for any reason.  

In other words... .if I went and had an affair... .and then asked for forgiveness... .she would "have to" take me back.



FF

How this plays out in a relationship is that I get credit for bad things, but any "good" decision I make is only because God intervened and changed my heart.  I get no credit for making a good decision.

Right, you can't make a good decision because you are a sinner and apart from God, you can't do anything good on your own. IMHO, this creates a weird 'spiritual' victim mentality; my husband was raised in that kind of environment (that type of Baptist). He blames God for a lot of his problems because God isn't helping him... .  Or at least he did until someone said that he needed to forgive God, and I explained that didn't necessarily mean that God sinned.

I can't tell him this because he needs to be 'holier' than I am. He also thinks my having boundaries is sinful.

The "brand" of Baptist she is focused on does NOT condone divorce... .pretty much for any reason.

I thought that was probably the case, and she can't do that without 'sinning' which would make her less holy. Forgiveness is her 'get out of jail card.'


It's frustrating to deal with as a spouse... . 

Frustrating is a very polite way to put it... .   

Funny story:  Several years ago the church we were going to at the time (more of my "brand" of Baptist) was doing several couples Bible study classes.

One of them was a video and reading series on "Boundaries" the book by Townsend and Cloud.  I had never heard of these guys.  My wife pushed hard for us to go... .honestly... I was a bit reluctant.  A couple sessions in my wife was wanting to quit (zero enthusiasm) and I thought it was pretty cool.  I devoured the book and wanted to put it all into practice.

She did complete the study... .but is reluctant to talk about it. 

Sigh... .

FF

A few years ago, my husband bought Boundaries in Marriage as a Valentine's Day gift; he thought it would help our marriage. As we read it, he was just confused about the whole concept and thinks of boundaries as punishments. I, on the other hand, found it very helpful.

And here we are... .  oh well... .

 
Do you think he was confused... .or "got it" but didn't like it?

My wife understood that she would have less access... .less say because I would be taking on responsibility for things that were mine.

FF

He both didn't like it, and he couldn't understand the concept behind it.

He didn't like the boundaries because it restricted him in some way, and he couldn't understand how he wasn't being punished. In a way, it was difficult for him to understand the idea of a person having a sense of themselves.

Currently, he thinks that they are attempts to control his behavior. (because there is blank space... .)

Interesting next step has been identified by P and me.

My P is a Christian and we do spend a good deal of time discussing Christian principles.

The next step is that I will write a letter to the Biblical counselor asking for a meeting with him and his superiors to discuss judgments that he made during counseling and that my wife seems to be clinging to

Biblical principle is that once you have talked to someone individually about an issue, you bring in others.  Biblical problem solving.

Matthew 18:16 " But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses"

Will take a week or so to create and review letter.

My wife is asserting several things and using BC's words as her "proof" or "truth".

1.  BC said:  "FF, there is no physical or mental reason you can not hold a full time job"  I challenged him on this and he blamed me for his lack of knowledge.  I wrote him a letter after that asking him to focus counseling on Biblical matters which he was an expert in and stay away from topics where he had no professional credentials.  He flat out refused.  In hindsight, I should have quit counseling at this point.  The impact on my relationship is my wife's view that I tricked her and "the system" to be a "stay at home mom" and "make her" go to work.  Basically... .that I am not disabled.


2.  That BC "cleared her" and declared me dangerous.  My wife has been showing an email around from BC saying that I need counseling and medication so I don't "snap" and referencing that I said in counseling I was worried about "snapping".  I did say that, but BC twisted in and presented it totally out of context.  BC was saying I was sinful for walking away from my wife when she is abusive.  When he asked me why I did that I said I was responsible for my behavior and I worried that if my wife was in my facing yelling at me and poking at me that I "might snap", so better for me to be responsible and remove myself from that situation.  There is no context or mention of my wife's behavior in his email.  Only that I worry I may "snap".

More later

FF

So what do you expect to accomplish?  Do you expect there to be a decision that you can communicate to your wife?  Do you think that would help?  Are you trying to reprimand the BC so that he doesn't harm future couples like he did with you?

Yes... .yes... .and yes.   Will write more later. 

Big goal is to obtain clarity. 

FF

Oh dear. This is what I would expect your wife to do, based on what you have described as her past behaviors.

Is the goal to convince your wife of anything, or is the goal to protect you legally, and protect your standing in the community?

I'm going to stick with clarity... .I'm not going to convince my wife of anything... .but I am not going to "protect" her against the truth.

Part of  clarity is to get in writing if her use of the materials provided to her in BC are being used as intended.  In other words they can clarify if they intended the email to be used as "proof" that I am dangerous... .can't be trusted with kids... .etc etc.

There is another goal or "concern".  If the church demonstrates humility and restricts their opinion to Biblical matters (vice medical) then I can likely tolerate future involvement with them.  If they refuse to follow Biblical guidance and meet as a group (the Matthew model) or if they are brazen enough to put in writing that their judgments overrule medical determinations of disability, then I don't see how I can have future involvement with such a church... .or how I could give my blessing to my wife or kids being involved.

Back to convincing my wife.  Sure... .deep down there is a hope that she will see the light.   There is hope that others will see the light as well.  That is an unlikely byproduct of this process.

My wife is fully well capable of ignoring written guidance about intent of use of information.  After all, I have the power to turn people against her.

She does respect this church.  A more likely outcome is that she will respect their guidance on behavior (stop parading around the emails to  prove FF bad)... .in other words she will stop doing that, while deep down still praying for the church to "see the light" about how bad I am.

That won't fix anything, but life will be more tolerable for me.

Again... .that is not primary goal... .but it certainly is in the mix.

FF

Oof! Paranoia can weave such a complicated web. I am sorry that you are in the midst of this but glad that you sound fully informed of the situation.

I was a bit concerned about the combination of her insistence on Biblical counseling and the disability determination and her ongoing complaints about your not working... .  It seemed like she might have an ulterior motive.

Who is she showing the email to? Is she trying to begin the process of church discipline against you?

As you know, I'm all for speaking directly to the people involved, then moving on from there and involving the appropriate other people. Is your P going to review your letter? I think it is challenging to get just the right words to convey the message appropriately.

To breakdown the next steps.  The next step for me is to get the letter written and go to next session with it.  Want to make sure it is focused and non-accusatory.

Once P and I are ok with letter, then send the letter.  Certainly we will look at the situation before sending it, but I'm doubtful that there is anything out there that could change the need or decision to send a letter.  Certainly I'm open to timing

It is up in the air whether "paranoia" will be addressed in the letter.  A previous BC listed that as his "top observation" about my wife and her behaviors.  In his written list he put paranoia in quotes and put it in context like this:

"As hard as FF wife went after him about having affairs and being involved with other women I assumed that FF had an affair at some point.  However, despite repeated and thorough questioning no proof or evidence of any kind of an affair was ever produced."

"Very suspicious of FF's actions and motivations to the point of "paranoia"  "

The last BC addressed it by saying "So... .FF's wife is paranoid... . Now, let's study our Bible"  After that the few times I brought it up to figure out when it would be addressed I was admonished for being selfish with counseling time when I should be focused on loving and understanding my wife.

My guess is that we will leave any references to paranoia out of the letter.  In fact, I'm going to have to focus on a couple "worst things" for the letter, vice any sore of comprehensive list... .comprehensive would be way too long.

FF

Of all things... .of all people... .she showed the emails to my P as "proof" of my badness.  It sounds like she has shown it to family/friends as well, but I have no proof of that.

We are not members of the church so no pathway that I know of for church discipline.  And... .one of my goals is to see how the church handles this... .when the BC in question is the #2 guy in church leadership.  It shouldn't matter... but we all know it does.  

Correct... no letters get sent until P and I are both OK with it and our goals.

FF

Oh, my. It does sound like your P was able to see for herself.


One would hope that church leadership would respond appropriately to concerns about their fellow leaders, but sometimes (maybe often) they do not. Do you have an alternative plan if they decide to support the previous decision? I was told that if I didn't like my church's decision, I could leave. So, I did, but I had already decided where I would go if they chose not to do the right thing.

Not really trying to get too far ahead of things. 

But... .I see no way to continue involvement with a church that refuses to talk.  Especially one that says "problems are for solving... .don't let things fester".  Note:  I would be shocked if they wouldn't talk or meet.

It is possible they could try and do some gymnastics with words to say that the Bible trumps science (not that blatantly... .but that is intent).  I'll just have to see what they write and go from there.

However, I think they would have a dim view of taking BC communications and parading those around without permission of parties involved and using them out of context.  It would have been one thing if my wife had approached them to clarify their intent and gain permission first.

P emphasized that I need to be clarifying... .vice accusatory.  They will get the message regardless.

FF

More on this... .I hope the group takes an honest and objective view of your sessions with the BC, but I have strong doubts.  These guys are way out of their league in dealing with mental illness.  Add in the political/social aspect of them dealing with the fallout of calling out your BMC's poor conclusions and I think that's enough to prevent them from overriding him.

So there is a good chance that instead of arming your wife with emails from one BMC that sort of "back her", you could end up with multiple such emails.  Are you cool with this?  Are you ready for her to sit on her high horse and toss these down into your face... .repeatedly, whenever convenient?  Are you okay with her sharing these emails to friends and family?

And should you leave the church over this (and try and prevent her and/or the kids from further attendance), you know this will absolutely look like, "FF didn't get what he wanted, so he's taking his ball and going home."... .much like what our pwBPD do when therapists turn up the heat on them.  Your wife will think this and perhaps anyone who learns of this that doesn't have full context.  Are you good with this as well?

I have to believe that if you email/letter, FF, begins clearly with your desire to follow the Matthew model in Biblically resolving a problem, they would not meet with you.  I tend to be an optimist.

It seems to me that the BMC might not have had a complete financial perspective of your family situation.  Was he aware that your income in not limited to your disability and her salary, i.e., that you operate a full-scale real estate investment business that contributes significantly to your family income?

This is a possible outcome and if she becomes further "armed" and takes action on that... .I doubt our marriage survives that.

My intent is to get to a level of dysfunction that I can "stand" long term (worst case) or gain some resolution through healing or divorce.

Yes he was aware of my financial contributions and he did try to "tamp down" my wife's accusations of being a bum (all my words here)... .but the weight that he made his "judgments" versus when he allowed that "maybe" I was providing... .is totally unbalanced.

Basically... once he realized he was wrong he would not discuss it further after saying I provided.  Any effort by me to bring up subject again was "sinful" or "selfish".

FF

HopefulDad has some good points. Ones that I've experienced first-hand. The church has already determined that you are sinful/selfish/prideful; I very much doubt that they will be willing to talk. I'm in a similar situation - the leadership of my husband's church has determined that I am selfish based on some prejudices that they have (but won't admit publicly). They are giving my husband advice based on their determinations of me. I can't control any of what is going on in that relationship. They don't want to talk with me about things; they just want me to follow their plan (which goes against the advice of licensed professionals). I'm not willing to do that, nor are the professionals that they want me to seek help from.

In that situation, it is easy for a person's discontinued involvement with church to be further evidence of their 'badness'. So, my choice was to begin attending another church immediately (it is our former church). Part of that decision was to avoid adding more evidence of my selfishness and sin - the other part was that I needed a spiritually supportive environment because this is a tough road. It also doesn't fit into the 'taking my ball and going home' scenario - which makes it hard for my husband to fit into the black/white thinking.

I remember your posts about your experiences with the BMC and just one of many reasons he showed he was unqualified was that he got very defensive.  The way he turned up the accusations of being sinful or selfish when questioned shows perhaps providing couples guidance isn't his thing.  I just think there's a likelihood that the members of the group you seek with whom to discuss this further are similar.

In any case, since you're going this route it's good to have an IDGAF attitude to what others may think.

It is possible for them to "double down"... .but then they would have to say things in private which don't match public professions... .and things on their website... .things said in group classes... .etc etc.

So, I will be ready for such... .although I hope it doesn't "go there".

There is a high likelihood... almost certainly... .that they will try to separate out psychiatry and psychology from the "medical" field.  That's fine... .the vast majority (2/3rds) of my VA disability is based on x-rays, MRIs, EMGs and other medical exams having nothing to do with PTSD.

Whatever the result... .the plan with my P is to get the result... .evaluate it... .and move forward with my life.

Part of this involves times past when counseling was "quit" with no follow up or clarification about what counseling "meant" or what the counselor "said".  Some of the judgments they have made need to be challenged.  If the stick by their judgment but provide no clarification of their professional ability to make those judgments... .they will be just as discredited as if they back off the claims.

Note:  This is for the eyes of the world... .my wife will twist whatever.  

FF

So, what do you need clarification on and why? If it is for future reference, I would highly recommend that you get their response/s in writing because you know how the interactions can be twisted.

The leadership at my husband's church is not following what they profess in writing, so... .

They can think they have the ability to make judgments about your medical situation, but their judgment is poppycock.

I could see this particular battle bringing further instability to your family and hastening the end of your marriage, without it being of any great practical benefit to you.

No wonder you want to defend yourself from this type of attack, but can you?

If they won't clarify in writing... .it's no good.

Interesting turn of events.  My wife met today with her "mentor" (lay lady from church that is going to teach her how to be a Godly woman and respect her husband).

Wife was in odd mood when she got home.  Then... .I get the following email from the BC.


I responded that I would put something together and get it to him next week.

I need to gather some intel, but... .here is what I see in the tea leaves at the moment.  My wife has likely sent a lot of theories and such to her mentor.  Mentor sort of did a What the heck? and went to leadership of church to get guidance.

The context of me telling the P was when my wife whipped out the email from BC saying I was a danger to the family if I "snapped".  Totally out of context.

More later...

FF

I would see "defending" as getting the correct info and then "pushing back" on my wife with it. 

Goal 1 is to get correct info.  Did the church intend to make judgments and do they believe it proper to be shopping those judgments around town to "fix" me... .or "do" things to me. 

Have they intended, as my wife claims to "clear" her and only point finger at me.

It would be one thing to "bash" my wife with this information, by same token... .I don't want to "save her" from the truth.

FF

Great church news!

I wonder if you need to do anything further at all. Your wife's delusions often seem to speak for themselves, when people outside the family hear them without you present.

If your wife experiences further frustration when she tries to "shop" these emails around, do you think eventually she will stop doing it of her own accord?
 

Do you feel you hear the sound of contrition in the Biblical Marriage Counselor's message? He may be even more dismayed than you are at the prospect of your wife showing his emails far and wide. Snap judgments of a war veteran of our armed forces? Without substantiating data? On the accusations of a mentally ill woman, whose mental illness perhaps went straight over his head? And now a psychologist has heard the whole tale?

Ouch!

There is a lot of wisdom in this.  I emailed back that I would get him more info next week.

Intent is to slow down... .work through P... .and make sure any "input" that I give the situation has a possibility of a good outcome.  Realizing that there are no guarantees.

Further tea leaf reading:  My wife is very contrite... .lovey... affectionate... .clingy tonight.  My guess is that was some plain talk with her mentor about content of her emails... theories and such.

Basically... .there was a "flip" tonight to shower my hubby with love and affection... .the contempt, disgust and disrespect of the last few weeks was gone. 

However... .I can tell there is a lot of fear and insecurity in my wife tonight.  My guess is she is very scared about what she is thinking about.

Will see what else I can dig up.  On one hand... .I am glad she is in some type of relationship where the focus is only on my wife.  I do understand how you train mentors.  They won't tolerate "looking at someone else's log"... .only look in your own eye.  I have some pretty good guesses the theories my wife sent over... .all about my log.

Sigh...


FF

I forget, does the BC know about your regular P? And what issue would FFwife have with the BC?

Sometimes, it is best to give them room to show themselves; what she is doing is becoming obvious without your intervention - that's good for you because you can't be blamed. People will get the idea that something 'weird' is going on with her - especially if she interacts with them on more than a surface level. It's a good sign that the BC sent an email to check on things.

"wise as serpents, innocent as doves"


One of the things that my husband has mentioned several times is the idea of doing loving things for me to make himself feel better. They aren't really expressions of love toward me, but his own way of dealing with his bad feelings. Push/pull kind of thing.

So... .you guys saw what the BC wrote above... .and it led to empath raising a question.  I'll hold off answering for now.



If you read the above email... .would you assume that the BC knew I was seeing a P... .or thought I was not?

I'll make a wild, partial guess.

Putting the latest two emails from the Biblical Marriage Counselor together, I would assume that he knows a secular mental health professional is now involved with your family in some capacity. Reflecting upon his own interactions with you and your wife (and now adding additional data from the mentor woman in his church), he worries that he has made some intemperate writings regarding your family that were, at least in secular terms, beyond his purview.

He now writes back to you with a message that is in great part self-protective.

Do you think maybe he would just like to be done with this matter? I'm not sensing that he has a great appetite for further conflict with you. (Though he does not want to appear to have been "wrong."





 

So... .the reality is that in the first session or two with BC the subject of secular counseling came up.  As you guys know, I'm an upfront guy.  I didn't want their to be competing counselors or things "hidden".  The thanked me for bringing him into the conversation and thought it would be a good idea for me to go to P and had no concerns.

So... .at the end he writes and acts like (at least when I read it) he is surprised about a P or thinks I should "go get counseling".  An odd way to put it if you know that I am already doing this.

At other times he has tried to state in emails things which are factually wrong "This is the first I have heard of this... ." when there is extensive email documentation and discussion on same issue.

Still open to figuring out his motivations... .and my guess is he would rather be done with it.

FF

The #2 in his message would really pi$$ me off if I were in your shoes. He's basically equating "snapping" to behaving in an out-of-control dangerous manner, when if I remember correctly, your communication was more about responding irritably toward your wife.

His email seems to be giving you "permission" to attend secular counseling and to use medication.

It really puts me off him even more than my previous impression and makes me think he's arrogant and should not be holding the position he does. 

 , totally.

 
The context of me saying "snapping" was he was challenging me as to why I "run away" from my wife when she is abusive.  Why do I lock myself behind doors... etc etc.

He was describing to me that I should not run... .that Jesus was abused when he loved the world... .and that I should endeavor to be like Jesus... .and stay and love my wife. (yes... .I was aghast)

Somehow he wanted me to used my physical size to protecty myself or "love" my wife.  It was as I was demanding he put all the above in writing that he "ended counseling" because I did not have a learners attitude.

I said something like this:  "It is my responsibility to take control of my actions and to control what I am exposed to.  It is no my responsibility to control my wife or anyone else.  I worry that I may not be able to behave properly if I stay and listen to abusive things, so I take responsibility and leave."

He pressed about what I was worried about and I said that if "I am fine 99 out of 100 times... .but once I "snap" and say something or do something I regret" then I had made unwise decisions to stay.

As you can see... .he left out a lot of context... .

Yeah... .pisses me off... .

FF

Some people have no idea what it's like to have one's buttons pressed repeatedly and the amount of self-restraint it takes to avoid letting raw emotion take control.  Such people who cannot empathize with anyone in this situation are the last people who should be giving advice on how to handle such situations.

Your BMC completely comes across as someone who has no clue about having his buttons pressed.  Heck, his defensiveness upon being challenged by you shows me he probably has a very short fuse in situations much more volatile.

I would think all men would understand this.  In almost all cases, the husband has the physical strength to serious harm/kill his wife.  In general, men tend towards anger in stressful situations.  As a result, it is instinctive for men to remove themselves from situations that can lead to anger, so that they don't lose control and do things that they will regret later.  Your BC, being a man, is the same way.  For him to not understand your need to avoid such situations is just weird.  I think in his effort to try and get you to agree with him, he started to take positions that he himself doesn't even believe.  He was just focused on "winning" the argument.

Okey dokie... .   The reason I asked the questions is that it felt a lot like my recent experience.

I've had a similar email exchange with my husband's pastor after I decided to be blunt about what was happening in my marriage. He theoretically knew that I was and had been seeking outside counsel from professionals after a incident of physical abuse. However after a year of putzing around and he and my husband discussing me and my 'issues' - well, I needed to clarify my position for them, in writing. My husband was twisting my words and other things.

So, after explaining that this is part of the abuse within my marriage and the only issue that I had was the abuse - pastor sent a 'self-protective' email saying that he was legally obligated to report abuse and that if it is happening, I needed to seek professional help and he could help me in accessing the community resources. (pastorally he needed to say the right thing - referring me to outside help)

So, I thanked him for his concern and stated that I had been receiving help from community agencies and Christian counselors for x amount of time (before he even was involved).

It's a very good thing that this happened over email exchange because I could slow down my reactions.

The thing that got me was that he is not legally obligated to report abuse, except in cases of child abuse or abuse of at-risk adults. I have reported an incident of reported child abuse to him and his church authority, but this was not the reaction to that incident. It felt like a challenge to get me to back down from my claims; I didn't and act consistently with my claims.

The sense that I got was that he decided that this was above his pay grade and he had better cover his ... .  or call my bluff.  At least he was willing to refer to appropriate agencies in that moment. It sounds like your BC referred you to a really good author.

I've got a couple different drafts I am working on.

My current favorite is a very short 2/3rd page where I basically express interest in communication boundaries since information from a private P appointment was communicated to the church without appropriate releases.

My wife, P and I discussed the possibility of seeking releases and involving counselors with each other and we agreed that we would decided on this at a future date.

This will basically "out" my wife as once again violating boundaries and me asking to establish appropriate boundaries, especially since my wife will have continuing involvement with a "mentor" at the church.

But... yes... ."slowing things down" is critical.

FF

Please head over to

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=299099.0

Read and give an impression.

I want to "lean forward" about establishing boundaries and making sure all are aware.

FF

FF, I don't have any church or Bible advice, but I just wanted to say that, it seems you are in the position to defend yourself against an accusation that isn't true.

From my own experience with someone as disordered as my mother, once she has convinced someone that I am crazy, just about anything I say is filtered through that assumption. Perhaps like your wife, my mother seems to have the need to prove that I am nuts to others perhaps before (she thinks I will do this but I don't )I can convince others that she is.

I don't know if this is what your wife is doing, but is she trying to prove there is something wrong with you and rally people to her side, even if this is all in her head as you two are not on opposite sides?

I also want to discuss emotional hooks. These are things we almost always get reactive to, and they hook us and we become very engaged. One of these for me is my father, and if my mother really wants to get my attention, she knows either consciously or unconsciously that bringing up my father is likely to get me engaged in a conversation or debate. If I can pay attention to my feelings when this happens, I am less reactive to it.

FF, you are a man of faith but discussions about faith can also be emotional hooks. I don't mean to sound callous but talk can be just that. Yet when someone speaks religion to you, it gets your full attention. My question is- considering who says what, is it worth it?

I don't have any control over what my mother says about me to others. If she committed true slander, I would have to call a lawyer. However, it just doesn't seem to be worth the time and energy to try to convince her friends that I am not what she says I am. I don't know if I would even speak much to your BC, other than to smile and nod and go on my way. I know it is hard when you attend the same church, but sooner or later, your wife's mouth will tip other people off that it is her, not you who has a problem.

I don't want to upset anyone... .I've gone back and forth about posting this... .

I see alot of drama here, lots of triangulation and some JADE.

I guess I really don't get why you are stirring the pot regarding the BC.  You and your wife have ended that relationship why go back to it?  So your wife is sharing emails from those meetings and they are out of context... .honestly she is going to do what she wants to do. You can not control her actions.  Are you going back to set the record straight with the BC... .with your wife?  That would be JADE.  Does that work with a pwBPD no we know it doesn't, all it does is create more drama and circular arguments.

I see triangulation is happening in all types of combinations as everyone moves in the dance around the triangle.

FF - victim
FFW - persecutor
BC - rescuer

FFW - victim
FF - persecutor
P - rescuer

FF - victim
BC- persecutor
P - rescuer

I feel like this whole thing is spinning into a bigger and bigger whirl wind that all parties... .FF, FFW, BC & P are feeding by moving around the triangle. 

Is this about being "right"... .about setting the record straight?  I can tell you that my SO had/has all kinds of things said about him by his uBPDxw and those that know them know who has issues and who doesn't based on each persons actions.  Even friends of the ex eventually see that what uBPDxw says isn't matching up with what they see with their own eyes.  Do the opinions of people that believe your wife really matter? And who's to say that over time they will figure out the truth on their own.  I can tell you that over time the "healthy people" will see the truth without JADE. 

What happens if you let the whole thing drop?  I believe the drama will lessen.  What do you think you are getting out of this situation?

Again my intention is not to hurt or offend anyone just share what I'm seeing.

Take Care,
Panda39

Somehow this is not getting understood.  If we both had ended it... .this would be simple decision.

No offense whatsoever... .please keep hammering away hard. 

My current idea (there are several drafts) is to focus exclusively on boundary setting/clarity and try to eliminate all JADE from it... .or "differences with BC"

I do see that point... quite valid.  If I did want to get into differences with BC... .I should focus only on that, and not comingle boundaries and debate about points of view.

These posts are really helpful.  It's also helpful to write all this out for me and then decide what to actually send.

FF