Next joint session with Psychologist is to plan future to "stabilize marriage"

[formflier]

Who is she showing the email to? Is she trying to begin the process of church discipline against you?

  

Of all things... .of all people... .she showed the emails to my P as "proof" of my badness.  It sounds like she has shown it to family/friends as well, but I have no proof of that.

We are not members of the church so no pathway that I know of for church discipline.  And... .one of my goals is to see how the church handles this... .when the BC in question is the #2 guy in church leadership.  It shouldn't matter... but we all know it does.  

Correct... no letters get sent until P and I are both OK with it and our goals.

FF

[empath]

Of all things... .of all people... .she showed the emails to my P as "proof" of my badness.

Oh, my. It does sound like your P was able to see for herself.


One would hope that church leadership would respond appropriately to concerns about their fellow leaders, but sometimes (maybe often) they do not. Do you have an alternative plan if they decide to support the previous decision? I was told that if I didn't like my church's decision, I could leave. So, I did, but I had already decided where I would go if they chose not to do the right thing.

[formflier]

Not really trying to get too far ahead of things. 

But... .I see no way to continue involvement with a church that refuses to talk.  Especially one that says "problems are for solving... .don't let things fester".  Note:  I would be shocked if they wouldn't talk or meet.

It is possible they could try and do some gymnastics with words to say that the Bible trumps science (not that blatantly... .but that is intent).  I'll just have to see what they write and go from there.

However, I think they would have a dim view of taking BC communications and parading those around without permission of parties involved and using them out of context.  It would have been one thing if my wife had approached them to clarify their intent and gain permission first.

P emphasized that I need to be clarifying... .vice accusatory.  They will get the message regardless.

FF

[HopefulDad]

One would hope that church leadership would respond appropriately to concerns about their fellow leaders, but sometimes (maybe often) they do not. Do you have an alternative plan if they decide to support the previous decision?

More on this... .I hope the group takes an honest and objective view of your sessions with the BC, but I have strong doubts.  These guys are way out of their league in dealing with mental illness.  Add in the political/social aspect of them dealing with the fallout of calling out your BMC's poor conclusions and I think that's enough to prevent them from overriding him.

So there is a good chance that instead of arming your wife with emails from one BMC that sort of "back her", you could end up with multiple such emails.  Are you cool with this?  Are you ready for her to sit on her high horse and toss these down into your face... .repeatedly, whenever convenient?  Are you okay with her sharing these emails to friends and family?

And should you leave the church over this (and try and prevent her and/or the kids from further attendance), you know this will absolutely look like, "FF didn't get what he wanted, so he's taking his ball and going home."... .much like what our pwBPD do when therapists turn up the heat on them.  Your wife will think this and perhaps anyone who learns of this that doesn't have full context.  Are you good with this as well?

[GaGrl]

I have to believe that if you email/letter, FF, begins clearly with your desire to follow the Matthew model in Biblically resolving a problem, they would not meet with you.  I tend to be an optimist.

It seems to me that the BMC might not have had a complete financial perspective of your family situation.  Was he aware that your income in not limited to your disability and her salary, i.e., that you operate a full-scale real estate investment business that contributes significantly to your family income?

[formflier]

Are you good with this as well?

This is a possible outcome and if she becomes further "armed" and takes action on that... .I doubt our marriage survives that.

My intent is to get to a level of dysfunction that I can "stand" long term (worst case) or gain some resolution through healing or divorce.

Yes he was aware of my financial contributions and he did try to "tamp down" my wife's accusations of being a bum (all my words here)... .but the weight that he made his "judgments" versus when he allowed that "maybe" I was providing... .is totally unbalanced.

Basically... once he realized he was wrong he would not discuss it further after saying I provided.  Any effort by me to bring up subject again was "sinful" or "selfish".

FF

[empath]

HopefulDad has some good points. Ones that I've experienced first-hand. The church has already determined that you are sinful/selfish/prideful; I very much doubt that they will be willing to talk. I'm in a similar situation - the leadership of my husband's church has determined that I am selfish based on some prejudices that they have (but won't admit publicly). They are giving my husband advice based on their determinations of me. I can't control any of what is going on in that relationship. They don't want to talk with me about things; they just want me to follow their plan (which goes against the advice of licensed professionals). I'm not willing to do that, nor are the professionals that they want me to seek help from.

In that situation, it is easy for a person's discontinued involvement with church to be further evidence of their 'badness'. So, my choice was to begin attending another church immediately (it is our former church). Part of that decision was to avoid adding more evidence of my selfishness and sin - the other part was that I needed a spiritually supportive environment because this is a tough road. It also doesn't fit into the 'taking my ball and going home' scenario - which makes it hard for my husband to fit into the black/white thinking.

[HopefulDad]

I remember your posts about your experiences with the BMC and just one of many reasons he showed he was unqualified was that he got very defensive.  The way he turned up the accusations of being sinful or selfish when questioned shows perhaps providing couples guidance isn't his thing.  I just think there's a likelihood that the members of the group you seek with whom to discuss this further are similar.

In any case, since you're going this route it's good to have an IDGAF attitude to what others may think.

[formflier]

It is possible for them to "double down"... .but then they would have to say things in private which don't match public professions... .and things on their website... .things said in group classes... .etc etc.

So, I will be ready for such... .although I hope it doesn't "go there".

There is a high likelihood... almost certainly... .that they will try to separate out psychiatry and psychology from the "medical" field.  That's fine... .the vast majority (2/3rds) of my VA disability is based on x-rays, MRIs, EMGs and other medical exams having nothing to do with PTSD.

Whatever the result... .the plan with my P is to get the result... .evaluate it... .and move forward with my life.

Part of this involves times past when counseling was "quit" with no follow up or clarification about what counseling "meant" or what the counselor "said".  Some of the judgments they have made need to be challenged.  If the stick by their judgment but provide no clarification of their professional ability to make those judgments... .they will be just as discredited as if they back off the claims.

Note:  This is for the eyes of the world... .my wife will twist whatever.  

FF

[empath]

So, what do you need clarification on and why? If it is for future reference, I would highly recommend that you get their response/s in writing because you know how the interactions can be twisted.

The leadership at my husband's church is not following what they profess in writing, so... .

They can think they have the ability to make judgments about your medical situation, but their judgment is poppycock.

[KateCat]

So, what do you need clarification on and why?

I could see this particular battle bringing further instability to your family and hastening the end of your marriage, without it being of any great practical benefit to you.

No wonder you want to defend yourself from this type of attack, but can you?

[formflier]

If they won't clarify in writing... .it's no good.

Interesting turn of events.  My wife met today with her "mentor" (lay lady from church that is going to teach her how to be a Godly woman and respect her husband).

Wife was in odd mood when she got home.  Then... .I get the following email from the BC.

FF and FF wife,
 
I hope you two are doing well. My wife and I met with mentors name(FF wife’s mentor) on Monday for a bit of guidance. mentor mentioned that ff wife had communicated with her about some problems ff wife had with me—that were told to a psychologist. I just want you two to be aware that if there are any outstanding problems/concerns that either of you have with me that I am available to meet in order to solve the problems. I do not desire that there be any unresolved issues between God’s people—as much as lies within my power to control.
 
If I don’t hear from you I will assume that all is okay.
 
Thank you!
 
Blessings,
BC

I responded that I would put something together and get it to him next week.

I need to gather some intel, but... .here is what I see in the tea leaves at the moment.  My wife has likely sent a lot of theories and such to her mentor.  Mentor sort of did a What the heck? and went to leadership of church to get guidance.

The context of me telling the P was when my wife whipped out the email from BC saying I was a danger to the family if I "snapped".  Totally out of context.

More later...

FF

[formflier]

No wonder you want to defend yourself from this type of attack, but can you?

I would see "defending" as getting the correct info and then "pushing back" on my wife with it. 

Goal 1 is to get correct info.  Did the church intend to make judgments and do they believe it proper to be shopping those judgments around town to "fix" me... .or "do" things to me. 

Have they intended, as my wife claims to "clear" her and only point finger at me.

It would be one thing to "bash" my wife with this information, by same token... .I don't want to "save her" from the truth.

FF

[KateCat]

Great church news!

I wonder if you need to do anything further at all. Your wife's delusions often seem to speak for themselves, when people outside the family hear them without you present.

If your wife experiences further frustration when she tries to "shop" these emails around, do you think eventually she will stop doing it of her own accord?
 

[KateCat]

Do you feel you hear the sound of contrition in the Biblical Marriage Counselor's message? He may be even more dismayed than you are at the prospect of your wife showing his emails far and wide. Snap judgments of a war veteran of our armed forces? Without substantiating data? On the accusations of a mentally ill woman, whose mental illness perhaps went straight over his head? And now a psychologist has heard the whole tale?

Ouch!

[formflier]

  Your wife's delusions often seem to speak for themselves, when people outside the family hear them without you present.

 

There is a lot of wisdom in this.  I emailed back that I would get him more info next week.

Intent is to slow down... .work through P... .and make sure any "input" that I give the situation has a possibility of a good outcome.  Realizing that there are no guarantees.

Further tea leaf reading:  My wife is very contrite... .lovey... affectionate... .clingy tonight.  My guess is that was some plain talk with her mentor about content of her emails... theories and such.

Basically... .there was a "flip" tonight to shower my hubby with love and affection... .the contempt, disgust and disrespect of the last few weeks was gone. 

However... .I can tell there is a lot of fear and insecurity in my wife tonight.  My guess is she is very scared about what she is thinking about.

Will see what else I can dig up.  On one hand... .I am glad she is in some type of relationship where the focus is only on my wife.  I do understand how you train mentors.  They won't tolerate "looking at someone else's log"... .only look in your own eye.  I have some pretty good guesses the theories my wife sent over... .all about my log.

Sigh...


FF

[empath]

I forget, does the BC know about your regular P? And what issue would FFwife have with the BC?

Sometimes, it is best to give them room to show themselves; what she is doing is becoming obvious without your intervention - that's good for you because you can't be blamed. People will get the idea that something 'weird' is going on with her - especially if she interacts with them on more than a surface level. It's a good sign that the BC sent an email to check on things.

"wise as serpents, innocent as doves"


One of the things that my husband has mentioned several times is the idea of doing loving things for me to make himself feel better. They aren't really expressions of love toward me, but his own way of dealing with his bad feelings. Push/pull kind of thing.

[formflier]

I forget, does the BC know about your regular P? And what issue would FFwife have with the BC?
 

So... .you guys saw what the BC wrote above... .and it led to empath raising a question.  I'll hold off answering for now.

FF and FF wife I have been praying and thinking about you all this morning and I have a few additional recommendations:
 
1)      If either is interested in digging deeply into learning to respond godly to the struggles of their spouse, the following resource could be helpful.

www.christianbook.com/right-when-your-spouse-acts-wrong/leslie-vernick/9780307458490/pd/458490

2)      FF, I recommend that you take whatever steps necessary including secular counseling and/or appropriate medications so that you never “snap” (in your words) in light of your PTSD. The safety of all involved in your family is paramount in your condition.

If you read the above email... .would you assume that the BC knew I was seeing a P... .or thought I was not?

[KateCat]

I'll make a wild, partial guess.

Putting the latest two emails from the Biblical Marriage Counselor together, I would assume that he knows a secular mental health professional is now involved with your family in some capacity. Reflecting upon his own interactions with you and your wife (and now adding additional data from the mentor woman in his church), he worries that he has made some intemperate writings regarding your family that were, at least in secular terms, beyond his purview.

He now writes back to you with a message that is in great part self-protective.

Do you think maybe he would just like to be done with this matter? I'm not sensing that he has a great appetite for further conflict with you. (Though he does not want to appear to have been "wrong."





 

[formflier]

So... .the reality is that in the first session or two with BC the subject of secular counseling came up.  As you guys know, I'm an upfront guy.  I didn't want their to be competing counselors or things "hidden".  The thanked me for bringing him into the conversation and thought it would be a good idea for me to go to P and had no concerns.

So... .at the end he writes and acts like (at least when I read it) he is surprised about a P or thinks I should "go get counseling".  An odd way to put it if you know that I am already doing this.

At other times he has tried to state in emails things which are factually wrong "This is the first I have heard of this... ." when there is extensive email documentation and discussion on same issue.

Still open to figuring out his motivations... .and my guess is he would rather be done with it.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

The #2 in his message would really pi$$ me off if I were in your shoes. He's basically equating "snapping" to behaving in an out-of-control dangerous manner, when if I remember correctly, your communication was more about responding irritably toward your wife.

His email seems to be giving you "permission" to attend secular counseling and to use medication.

It really puts me off him even more than my previous impression and makes me think he's arrogant and should not be holding the position he does. 

[KateCat]

 , totally.

[formflier]

 
The context of me saying "snapping" was he was challenging me as to why I "run away" from my wife when she is abusive.  Why do I lock myself behind doors... etc etc.

He was describing to me that I should not run... .that Jesus was abused when he loved the world... .and that I should endeavor to be like Jesus... .and stay and love my wife. (yes... .I was aghast)

Somehow he wanted me to used my physical size to protecty myself or "love" my wife.  It was as I was demanding he put all the above in writing that he "ended counseling" because I did not have a learners attitude.

I said something like this:  "It is my responsibility to take control of my actions and to control what I am exposed to.  It is no my responsibility to control my wife or anyone else.  I worry that I may not be able to behave properly if I stay and listen to abusive things, so I take responsibility and leave."

He pressed about what I was worried about and I said that if "I am fine 99 out of 100 times... .but once I "snap" and say something or do something I regret" then I had made unwise decisions to stay.

As you can see... .he left out a lot of context... .

Yeah... .pisses me off... .

FF

[HopefulDad]

Some people have no idea what it's like to have one's buttons pressed repeatedly and the amount of self-restraint it takes to avoid letting raw emotion take control.  Such people who cannot empathize with anyone in this situation are the last people who should be giving advice on how to handle such situations.

Your BMC completely comes across as someone who has no clue about having his buttons pressed.  Heck, his defensiveness upon being challenged by you shows me he probably has a very short fuse in situations much more volatile.

[Fian]

I would think all men would understand this.  In almost all cases, the husband has the physical strength to serious harm/kill his wife.  In general, men tend towards anger in stressful situations.  As a result, it is instinctive for men to remove themselves from situations that can lead to anger, so that they don't lose control and do things that they will regret later.  Your BC, being a man, is the same way.  For him to not understand your need to avoid such situations is just weird.  I think in his effort to try and get you to agree with him, he started to take positions that he himself doesn't even believe.  He was just focused on "winning" the argument.

[empath]

Okey dokie... .   The reason I asked the questions is that it felt a lot like my recent experience.

I've had a similar email exchange with my husband's pastor after I decided to be blunt about what was happening in my marriage. He theoretically knew that I was and had been seeking outside counsel from professionals after a incident of physical abuse. However after a year of putzing around and he and my husband discussing me and my 'issues' - well, I needed to clarify my position for them, in writing. My husband was twisting my words and other things.

So, after explaining that this is part of the abuse within my marriage and the only issue that I had was the abuse - pastor sent a 'self-protective' email saying that he was legally obligated to report abuse and that if it is happening, I needed to seek professional help and he could help me in accessing the community resources. (pastorally he needed to say the right thing - referring me to outside help)

So, I thanked him for his concern and stated that I had been receiving help from community agencies and Christian counselors for x amount of time (before he even was involved).

It's a very good thing that this happened over email exchange because I could slow down my reactions.

The thing that got me was that he is not legally obligated to report abuse, except in cases of child abuse or abuse of at-risk adults. I have reported an incident of reported child abuse to him and his church authority, but this was not the reaction to that incident. It felt like a challenge to get me to back down from my claims; I didn't and act consistently with my claims.

The sense that I got was that he decided that this was above his pay grade and he had better cover his ... .  or call my bluff.  At least he was willing to refer to appropriate agencies in that moment. It sounds like your BC referred you to a really good author.

[formflier]

I've got a couple different drafts I am working on.

My current favorite is a very short 2/3rd page where I basically express interest in communication boundaries since information from a private P appointment was communicated to the church without appropriate releases.

My wife, P and I discussed the possibility of seeking releases and involving counselors with each other and we agreed that we would decided on this at a future date.

This will basically "out" my wife as once again violating boundaries and me asking to establish appropriate boundaries, especially since my wife will have continuing involvement with a "mentor" at the church.

But... yes... ."slowing things down" is critical.

FF

[formflier]

Please head over to

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=299099.0

Read and give an impression.

I want to "lean forward" about establishing boundaries and making sure all are aware.

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, I don't have any church or Bible advice, but I just wanted to say that, it seems you are in the position to defend yourself against an accusation that isn't true.

From my own experience with someone as disordered as my mother, once she has convinced someone that I am crazy, just about anything I say is filtered through that assumption. Perhaps like your wife, my mother seems to have the need to prove that I am nuts to others perhaps before (she thinks I will do this but I don't )I can convince others that she is.

I don't know if this is what your wife is doing, but is she trying to prove there is something wrong with you and rally people to her side, even if this is all in her head as you two are not on opposite sides?

I also want to discuss emotional hooks. These are things we almost always get reactive to, and they hook us and we become very engaged. One of these for me is my father, and if my mother really wants to get my attention, she knows either consciously or unconsciously that bringing up my father is likely to get me engaged in a conversation or debate. If I can pay attention to my feelings when this happens, I am less reactive to it.

FF, you are a man of faith but discussions about faith can also be emotional hooks. I don't mean to sound callous but talk can be just that. Yet when someone speaks religion to you, it gets your full attention. My question is- considering who says what, is it worth it?

I don't have any control over what my mother says about me to others. If she committed true slander, I would have to call a lawyer. However, it just doesn't seem to be worth the time and energy to try to convince her friends that I am not what she says I am. I don't know if I would even speak much to your BC, other than to smile and nod and go on my way. I know it is hard when you attend the same church, but sooner or later, your wife's mouth will tip other people off that it is her, not you who has a problem.

[Panda39]

I don't want to upset anyone... .I've gone back and forth about posting this... .

I see alot of drama here, lots of triangulation and some JADE.

I guess I really don't get why you are stirring the pot regarding the BC.  You and your wife have ended that relationship why go back to it?  So your wife is sharing emails from those meetings and they are out of context... .honestly she is going to do what she wants to do. You can not control her actions.  Are you going back to set the record straight with the BC... .with your wife?  That would be JADE.  Does that work with a pwBPD no we know it doesn't, all it does is create more drama and circular arguments.

I see triangulation is happening in all types of combinations as everyone moves in the dance around the triangle.

FF - victim
FFW - persecutor
BC - rescuer

FFW - victim
FF - persecutor
P - rescuer

FF - victim
BC- persecutor
P - rescuer

I feel like this whole thing is spinning into a bigger and bigger whirl wind that all parties... .FF, FFW, BC & P are feeding by moving around the triangle. 

Is this about being "right"... .about setting the record straight?  I can tell you that my SO had/has all kinds of things said about him by his uBPDxw and those that know them know who has issues and who doesn't based on each persons actions.  Even friends of the ex eventually see that what uBPDxw says isn't matching up with what they see with their own eyes.  Do the opinions of people that believe your wife really matter? And who's to say that over time they will figure out the truth on their own.  I can tell you that over time the "healthy people" will see the truth without JADE. 

What happens if you let the whole thing drop?  I believe the drama will lessen.  What do you think you are getting out of this situation?

Again my intention is not to hurt or offend anyone just share what I'm seeing.

Take Care,
Panda39