BPDFamily.com

I guess my biggest question is:

"How do I break the ice when I get back to Germany?"

She has said to contact her "if I ever come back" and "we can sit down and talk then".

Instead of some stiff meeting when both of us are on the defensive with things to say all planned out, I was planning on "bumping into" her and my daughter on their way to Kindergarten in the morning. It was our normal walk together every day.

I was hoping to see her, give her a big hug (while she was shocked to see me) and say, "Everything will be okay" in a very empathetic way. And of course, see my daughter too!

Is this a bad idea? Should I be more distant? I'm afraid if I am distant, that will cement her frame of "we're not a couple anymore".  I know she throws tons of ridiculous statements out there and most of the time I brush them off.

Should I accept that statement ("We're not a couple" at face value and act accordingly? Or should I act "like a rock" and brush it off like, "Hey, I'm back just like I promised. Of course we're a couple. We have a daughter together, we were engaged when I left and all this  happened. Give me a hug. It's me. We need to get work things out, etc".

Honestly, I'm afraid if I do accept her frame of "we're not a couple anymore", she goes on holiday a few days later and then she'll hook up with some other guy - which would forever doom our chances. Of course, I can't control that happening, but anything I can do to get her back in the mind frame of "I will give this a chance" would be good.

Do I tell her I love her and want her back? Or do I act detached and see if I can slowly warm her up to me with lunches, date nights, grocery shopping together, meetings, me being a good support system for her, etc? And then slowly start to build from there?

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Mod note: this thread split from Part 1 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=302042.0;all)

I believe that it only takes one person to end a relationship. If she is done, she's done, and your opinion doesn't matter. Similarly, if you are done, you are done, and her opinion doesn't matter.

That said, I'm not sure she's DONE. She's very angry, but that isn't the same. As long as YOU still want to try, do it. I'm betting that things will change when you return to Germany. I'm not going to predict what the result will be, but it will at least shake things up a bit.

Don't change how you act when you show up to manipulate her. I wouldn't suggest "playing it cool" for that reason. I'd show up eager to see her... .but trying to be sensitive to her reaction... .eager to give her a big hug... .but not chasing her if she backs away!

If you love her and want to see her, want to reconcile with her, and want to be with her... .be honest, be vulnerable, and tell her.

I don't know about "bumping into" her by accident on purpose. (I know I wouldn't do it if I figured she would see through it and know I did it on purpose)

If I wanted to surprise her I would probably do it by knocking on the apartment door when I expected her to be home but hadn't warned her I was coming.

If I didn't want to surprise her, I would probably let her know I'm coming back, and that I'd arranged a place I could stay immediately since she told me I wasn't welcome there. Either when you buy plane tickets, or when you get on the plane. Or at the latest when you get off it.

What are you hoping to gain by surprising her?

I'm afraid she wouldn't let me in, feel threatened (as if I wanted to move back in), ending up with me at the doorway rejected and then shut down.  But maybe not. I would definitely come with a bouquet of flowers for her.  She loves them.


I wanted to surprise her so I could give her a hug before her anger / other negative emotions set in. She'd still be in shock and I think she would hug me back out of reflex.  Of course, it would guarantee I would see my daughter, too.  It would be very easy for her to close the door on me at the apartment, but would take a REAL effort to not let me see my daughter on the street. She would be in a stroller and I could just walk up to her and give her a hug, too.  It would also be neutral ground.

Then again, I could go to her apartment with the idea of "where is my stuff"? And that could get me in the door maybe.

I really appreciate your advice of being real, being vulnerable and taking it from there.

You need a clear legal answer from a German lawyer to the following scenario.

If you walk up to the door to your apartment, put in the key and the door opens... .are you ok to go in.

I'm assuming your stuff is in there.

If she doesn't want you there... .I would guess there is a procedure to evict you in Germany.  You don't want my assumptions, you want the legal facts.

Honestly... .the whole "bumping into" her thing seems contrived.  Find out from a L what your status is in the apartment, we can go from there on best way to approach this.

Last thought for now.

While you are still learning about BPD, rules, validation... all that.  I would say less contact is better.

That she is saying... .hinting... .whatever... .that if you come back... .to give her a call... .that is a good sign.

In the push pull world... she is "pulling" you a bit.  Remember the rules... .cut her "sign" in half and send her some pull back.  Then hush. 

What do you think that would look like?  (to send her a pull signal that is less than what she sent you)

FF

Okay, will talk with my lawyer this week.


Okay.


It may just be to arrange something so I can visit our child. That's good, of course, but my goal is to reconcile with her. Hopefully, her willingness to meet "if I ever got back to Germany" is also a good sign for that. When I talked to her on the phone, she said "I'm done. I'm so done". But again, I'm learning to "loosely hold" what she says.


A pull signal that is less than what she gave me? I really have no idea. Maybe an email asking how she is doing?

No clue.

A pull signal would be something like this.

"Sounds good... .looking forward to talking to you in person."

as opposed to


"Oh my gosh... .I'm so happy you have allowed me to come back.  You are the best.  I've missed you soo bad, can't wait to hold you in my arms again... "  (I think you get the picture)

Remember... .less is more

If she is the type that really needs to be in control... .(they kind all do)

"Your idea sounds good... .will be good to talk in person again"

FF

Ah, okay. Got it. Just that simple. Thanks.

It sounds like you are afraid she will reject you, and hoping that you can "trick" her into not doing it.

I know with myself that when I let fear motivate me or drive me, I don't like myself or my choices very much--I really can't recommend that as a course of action.

Bringing flowers sounds excellent--it is an act of love, not an act of fear.

Q: Does she like surprises? (I mean smaller ones, not the kind you are talking about... .)

Rejection:  (Can also be called the "push" signal).  Here is the thing.  Instead of spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to do things so that she doesn't reject you, "radically accept" that it is going to happen at some point.

Imagine the rejection will be a nasty thunderstorm... .really big and scary.  Perhaps even full of hail.

Now... .think about the analogy... .   How long do thunderstorms last? 

Then... once the storm is past.  The air is usually fresh... .things are nice, until the next t-storm comes along.

They are going to happen.  So... .get a raincoat, umbrella... .go inside.  Basically take care of yourself during the storm with the knowledge that it will pass.

Once she realizes that her "t-storms" don't work so well... .they will come less frequently.

FF

This is really powerful.


Give me hope. Thanks... .

Since we are on the deciding board... .I'll continue the analogy... .   :)

Some parts of the country (USA) are known to have whopper T-storms.  Violent tornadoes happen often. 

That's what happens in that part of the country.  Most people that have thought it through, have a cellar that they go to, when there are storms in the area.

There is nothing wrong or right about the choice they made to live there.  They have organized their life to handle the issues that arise where they have chosen to live.

Other parts of the country have much more placid weather, others have colder weather, warmer... .you get the picture.

Again... .personal preference on where you live.

Moving to the Dakotas in winter... .without a coat... .is not smart.

Same with moving to the Florida Keys with only a heavy coat... .and no sunblock.

FF

This is helpful.

I can see now my "dealing" with her BPD/NPD has been me trying to get her to "see the light" on her disorder, acknowledge how she treated me, try to stop the spotlight constantly shifted to me, calling her out on her terrible devaluation of me, her twisted way of looking at things, her gaslighting, her lack of loyalty, her constantly "holding the relationship hostage" when disussing her behavior and total lack of accountability from her.

This, of course, is the "logical way" people in relationships deal with things: a loving, open, back-and-forth exchange so both partners can resolve old hurt feelings and move forward. It's now clear this is NOT the approach I should have been taking with her.

In fact, far from it. From what I understand here, I should NOT engage her crazy thinking, stop pointing out her twisted logic and games, but still VALIDATE how she is feeling. But at the same time, refuse to get sucked into circular arguments, head games and drama. Basically, hunker down until the storm passes. Get out of the apartment, go for a walk and don't try to refute what she is saying. Just validate that is her reality, if not mine.

So it sounds like both of you guys think the "popping up on the street" idea is a bad one. And that you both think I should just show up at "our" home with flowers in my hand and knock on the door.  And don't apologize for seeing my other daughters in California, but acknowledge it hurt her for me to be gone.

Is that basically right?

There are many things I've learned to do to make my r/s with a pwBPD work better... .much from the tools and lessons I've learned here. I've given you a lot of advice along those lines.

For example, regarding this list... .

Every one of the things which concerns and upsets you is a problem, or is bad behavior in a relationship.

And pretty much any way I can imagine to convince her of any of this would be invalidating, and that is one of the lessons--don't be invalidating if you can avoid it. So just don't do it. It will only make your relationship worse.

I also hold some core values, like honesty, both for moral/ethical and practical reasons. For example:


If you don't regret doing it, an apology wouldn't be honest.

Good chance she won't believe you anyways.

I bet you would do it again in a few months or a year, so your dishonesty will be proven by your actions.

This example doesn't really seem specific to BPD to me. I guess pwBPD are more likely to be insanely jealous and make this an issue than healthy people, but this situation could happen with anybody.

... .I think showing up "accidentally" where and when you know she will be is deceptive, and worse, you are likely to get caught/busted on the deception.


Yes, both those things are true.

Not staying for verbal abuse and circular arguments is the right thing to do. Have you read these workshops on boundaries?

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence (https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries)

BOUNDARIES: Case studies  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0)

Validation is also an excellent practice. Two points about validation to consider:

1. It is a bit more advanced and subtle, and will take practice to successfully validate.

As you come to understand it, you will probably notice that getting validation 99% right, with just 1% invalidation mixed in, results in tainting the lot of it, and you don't end up with any of the benefits of validation.

2. Validation is much easier to do with somebody who isn't already upset.

You are probably hoping you can use validation "calm her down" when she starts to get upset. That is *possible*, but even if you are very good at it, it doesn't work most of the time.

The more effective way to use it is to try to look for opportunities to validate her feelings any and all times, especially when she's not upset, or when she's upset but not AT YOU.

Used this way, it doesn't end the fights... .but it does lower the temperature overall a lot, perhaps preventing fights before you even knew they were possible.

And conversely, a bit of invalidation will often pick a fight, when there was no need/reason for one.

Take out the bold... .

You are right to erase all thoughts of "fixing" or "turning" her to a happier place.  

Empathy is meeting a person where they are.  Instead of telling them they shouldn't be down in that dark hole... .and that it's nice and light if they would just crawl out of the hole.  Crawl down in there and let them know you are there.  Practically speaking... .look at them... .try to match mood or "bring your mood down"... .speak softer... .friendlier.  

"I noticed your eyes are puffy and red.  Are you sad?  I'm here to listen... "

So... .back to the "take out the bold" comment I started with.

Lots of us on these boards tend to be very logical and have trouble with "being in the moment" with an emotional person.

Soo... .use a checklist.

Step 1:  DO NOT INVALIDATE  Head back up to GKs post about 99% validation and 1% invalidation.  Invalidation is pouring gas on a fire.  Validation is oiling rusty gears.  I would much rather you DO LESS validation and avoid invalidation altogether, than be the greatest validater, yet every once and a while you squirt gas on something.  

Step 2:  DO NOT VALIDATE THE INVALID  See my first comment about taking out the bold.  You are fine all day long to validate that someone is hurting... .happy... sad... .whatever.  

Emotions are... .(just leave it that simple... .and lots of other things in a relationship fall in place)

Validating or agreeing that she hurts because you are gone is likely invalid.  She hurts... .your departure is a convenient place for her to "hang that hurt".  You have no responsibility to correct how she handles her emotions... .NONE WHATSOEVER.  You DO have a responsibility to NOT MAKE IT WORSE BY YOUR ACTIONS.

Step 3:  Validate.

FF

This is extremely powerful.

So hard for me to do in the past, however. I get caught up in the insults (towards me), name-calling, etc.


So true. I know that's my problem, too.


Got it. Makes sense.


Never would have thought that. I thought that would be validating. But does make sense - as you say, maybe she's just hurting and doesn't know why. I guess he validation is simply, "I see you're hurting"


I think this is what I've been doing: trying to get her to "see the light". And then adding fuel to the fire.

By the way, I called our cleaning lady in Germany today and spoke to her (she's really cool and I have a good rapport with her).

She CONFIRMED that the locks on my apartment door have been changed. She was given a new key.  I asked her if my GF had been seeing another guy and she said, "She hasn't said that to me. I don't think so. No. And I have seen NO signs of that in the apartment. No signs of another man in the apartment at all."

She also told me where my GF is going with my daughter over Christmas: to visit a friend about four hours away in Western Germany. She is not leaving the country as far as I know.

Now that I KNOW the locks on our apartment have been changed.  Is this confirmation that it is hopeless?  Is this a sign - do you think - that she is really DONE?

The locks being changed... .means she changed the locks.  She wants control over her environment.

She has your stuff... .and it's where you lived. 

Learn the lesson:  Never ever ever ever ever live with this woman again without ensuring legal access and control over where you sleep and you put your stuff. 

DON'T EVER BUDGE on this.  (You don't have to tell her this, it's your decision).  If she wants you to move back in... or get another place with her, we can guide you through that conversation.

Get firm answer from German lawyer on if what she did is lawful... .and your rights to get your stuff.

Other issues as well... .but for sure nail this down.

Have you talked to the lawyer?

When are you going to fly back to Germany?

FF

Calm down, man.

We aren't magicians looking into some BPD crystal ball to figure out what she really thinks. There aren't any "signs".

Looking at her actions, trying to find proof that either A) she still loves you and will make everything better, or B) All his hopeless and she is DONE is just going to make you crazy.

It is also black and white all or nothing thinking. Try not to get trapped in that kind of thing. Even if she is does. And she probably will.

The real world is much more ambiguous than that. And part of the ambiguity is that she does fall into this trap of black-and-white thinking, and she will paint you 100% black, in all ways... .until she doesn't. And you can have a little bit of influence, but ultimately, you have no control over this, and she hardly has any either.

All you can do is stick to YOUR values and do the best you can no matter which way she's blowing in the wind.

It also means that she sometimes follows through on her threats. She has made other threats, including reporting you to the police and social services. You need to work with an attorney to determine if there's some kind of legal action taking place against you.

You're right. I'm probably reading too much into this. It's just that I'm flying SO blind right now that I guess I would like to have SOME indication of what will happen when I get back.


I won't ever make that mistake again.


Okay, that would be great.


I will. I will speak to my lawyer when I get back to Germany early next week.

This is a good point. Maybe I should speak to my attorney via Skype before I leave.

My pwBPD GF did say that she did NOT give my name to the police. I asked twice and she said, "No" both times. She said she simply reported the passport stolen so another person couldn't use it.

Talk to lawyer first... .before you travel. 

Also... .might be best to start a different thread to talk about your communication with your GF.

Asking her lots of precise legal questions about what she did... .and asking repeatedly... .is playing with fire.

I'm assuming your goal is to get back in relationship with her and your daughter... .playing with fire is not a good idea.

FF

Incidentally, I emailed her yesterday with "How are you and M(daughter)?"

I was shocked that she actually replied:

"M is fine. Thank you for asking"

Maybe in the wacko push-pull world, this is a "tiny" pull?

Yes, that's true.  I do want to get back into the relationship with her and my daughter.  Not sure why this is "playing with fire"?  Is it just too adversarial?  Or too triggering?

Playing with fire is something that might set her off for no good reason.

You know... .you absolutely know for sure that some things she will lie to you about.  Some come true.  That is based on her emotions of the moment.

So... .what if she is telling the truth now... .what if she is not?

Why even ask her these types of questions... .you can't trust the answer.  It brings up a subject that she has likely moved on from.

That's what I mean by playing with fire.

If you want to know... .get your L to find out.

FF

I see.

Incidentally, I emailed her a couple days ago with "How are you and M(daughter)?"

I was shocked she actually replied.  She said,

"M is fine. Thank you for asking"

She's obviously trying to make it clear "we're done" by not responding to my inquiry about how SHE is doing.  But maybe in the wacko push-pull world by saying, "thank you for asking", could this be a tiny "pull"?

Reason I say that is that's not at all how she has sounded the last month or so.

Still trying to learn these pull-pull dynamics... .

I try to disengage from push-pull games, not engage in them.

Trying to figure out "what she really means" isn't your answer, because that isn't how she thinks.

Your feelings toward her aren't like hers are toward you. You may get mad or hurt, but you don't forget that you love her at those times... .even if you do get overcome and perhaps do or say something a bit rash. Your core feelings are stable.

Hers are not. She will truly believe what she says to you when she says it. And a day or a week or a month later, she will truly believe it when she says the exact opposite. And she doesn't really see that there is a contradiction there.

You are looking for some core belief and feelings of hers that are stable over time, and looking for hints as to what they really are from what she says in any given email. The core stability you have isn't there for you to find. Stop looking for it.

Does this make any sense?

Yes, it does.  Makes things very clear, actually.  A breakthrough in fact.

You're exactly right: I've told her in the past, "Just because I'm mad at you or sad about something you did or said hurtful words to you, it doesn't mean I don't love you anymore. I have a strong foundation of love for you.  An argument won't rock that foundation.  It's there."

In fact, I've said this many times to her over the past couple of years and she was always like, "Huh?"  She just didn't get it - and didn't believe it.

This is one of the problems, I think.  That "core stability" in her feelings.  This is a very, very good point.  I keep looking for some core stability feeling, but never find it.

She once told me, "I have this thing where if somebody is not physically present with me, I feel like they don't love me anymore".

Not that statement makes perfect sense.  Because SHE can't love somebody who is not physically present with her, she can't understand how someone else could.

And many other times I've told her I love her she's looked at me with a sad face and said, "You do?"

Wow, now that I think about it, how sad.

But as far as push-pull dynamics, I thought you said to give her "half" of what she gives you.  But it also makes sense to not get wrapped up in those games.

I'm also wondering, after reading this, if you are professing your love for her too much.

Something to think about.

If you are too far out in front of her... .where she is exclaiming "you do?"... .that indicates to me you are taking her emotionally to a place where she isn't comfortable.

Perhaps you are giving her a 6 on the "love bomb" scale and she would respond better to a 3... .something calmer.

Remember... .whatever signal she is sending... ."stay inside it"... .to help her get back to neutral.

FF

Also... .likely best to stop explaining how your feelings work to her.  Probably best to stop asking her about hers... .or probing deeply.

Much better to "do" a r/s with a pwBPD than to talk about it.  Let them take the lead on what they are comfortable talking about.

My opinion is that push-pull games are ugly games, and I don't like playing them. Giving her "half" sounds like keeping score in that game and participating in it, which I don't recommend.

You can try to play them to win. The versions of that I've seen look like pickup artist games when a guy does it. Tearing down a woman's (already fragile) self-esteem to get what you want from her. I've read a little bit of that playbook, and it isn't anything I want to do. (There is a different but similarly dark and manipulative playbook for women)

Honestly, I'd probably be dumping a woman or backing away if she started playing those games with me... .but that isn't your goal here--you want to reconcile, and I'm trying to support you in those efforts.

So what you do is refuse to engage in this game. If she pushes you away hard, rejecting you, don't engage in the pitiful begging and chasing. If she runs away, let her have some space. If she starts chasing after you, don't run away to keep her chasing.

Instead, stick to your core values (which are stable), and here are the two that come to mind and apply:
1. You love her and care for her and want to be close to her.
2. You respect her, and will honor her stated wishes and feelings*

* Honor them at the time she expresses them. Give her space when she says "Go away forever, I never want to see you again." As I said, she doesn't have stable core values, so don't take the words like "always" "forever" "never" in her statements to heart, and don't feel like you need to honor them.

Nah, I'm not overly gushy with her. I can just remember odd times when I've caught her off-guard and told her I loved her (on our good days) and she says she doesn't believe it.


This is helpful.


This I have learned. Very true.

I can't stand these games, either. It's the first relationship I've ever been in that had this dynamic.


How do you mean "play them to win"?


This is not my style - and I would never use those types of techniques - but I would be curious to know what this "playbook" is. Maybe their "mindset" could be helpful to me - I feel like I'm so far in the other direction that reading that stuff might help me "find center".


This is the problem. If we didn't have a child together, I would dump her and never look back.


I have refused in the past to play these games with her. I just walk away or ignore her if she walks away.

She would always say, "Wow, you really must love me a LOT by fighting so hard for me" (sarcastically).

In her mind, her running away and me chasing is a sign of LOVE.  And the more she pushes me away and the harder I "fight for her", the more I must love her.  So when she's feeling very unloved, it seems like that's when she pushes me away the hardest and I must "prove my love" by running back to her and "fighting for her".  And talking her back into the relationship, showing how much I love her, saying "let's give it one more chance", etc.

Twisted, I know.

But the funny - and hurtful - thing is that SHE never fights for our relationship. She threatens to leave at the drop of a hat. If I bring up something crappy she did, her response is often, "Maybe we're just not meant for each other". Or "maybe we should start to see other people".  And stuff like that. Her way or the highway.  Basically holding the relationship hostage when I bring up even MINOR transgressions on her part.

But you bring up a good point. At what point should I walk away? At what point should I just throw in the towel?

Is there any guideline on leaving a pwBPD for good?

I've thought about it often in the past.

Little clarification on the "giver her half thing".  

That's a big picture view way of organizing in your head that if you choose to play a role that the role you should play is to "help" her get back to "neutral"

So... .she "pulls" or express joy in the relationship... "stay inside it by half"... .if you choose to give a response

So... .she says "I love you... .you are best ever... .I can't imagine life without you... .blah blah blah"

you say  "It means a lot to me that you are open with your feelings"  

You are still being positive... ."pulling" slightly by saying that things she does are meaningful in a positive way... .but hopefully you can see how it is much less extreme that what she is expressing.

Another thought on push pull "games".  When I think of "games"... .I get the thought of someone that is "plotting" to say and do things in order to get a certain response from you.

Honestly... .with most pwBPD, I don't see that.  I think the push pull comes more from their emotional turmoil, than from a plot.

Choosing to engage or not in moderating push pull dynamics.

Step 1:  Are you out of energy or not?  Take care of yourself first.  No apologies there.

Step 2:  Is the push pull abusive or not.  If it's abusive, I recommend you go with GK advice and just not play.  

Step 3:  If not abusive and if you have the energy to hang in there for a bit.  Go for it.  

Hope that helps

FF

This is incredibly powerful. I see the "half" in that. One of my problems is that I''m very emotional myself. I feel the burn of a comment, get angry and call her on it. But this just adds fuel to the fire.  My own emotionality is often not a good combination with my pwBPD partner.  One of the things I really need to work on is being more laid back and not engulfing her with my feelings when she can't even handle her own.

Sometimes we feed off of each other's intensity and it starts escalating. I can see how "giving her half" could be a great way to stabilize her emotions - positive or negative.


I honestly don't know if this is the case here. Sometimes she pushes buttons to get a reaction so I tend to think she's more NPD, but her fear of abandonment is so extreme that I think she's BPD.  She has all the other signs of BPD, too: family history of abuse as a child, mother who didn't protect her from an abusive stepfather, frequent mood swings, splitting, push/pull, etc. (no cutting, but she does sit and "pick" at blemishes on her face).

But other times her "digs" seem carefully constructed to wound me. Or she sets up situations (traps) to make me wrong that anybody would fall into: heads I win / Tails you lose type-stuff. Like the situation I'm now in. I go for three weeks and she tells me not to come home. And I'm sure she'll say later that I wasn't around for Christmas when it was actually her doing!  So they seem like games, but I don't know if she really plans them. She is SCARY smart.


It really does help. Thanks.

Also, most important--She will bounce all over the place. If you try to follow that you will be acting crazy and you will be exhausted.

Focus on your values and what you want to do, and trust that she will probably bounce back in the right direction sooner or later.

... .when are you going back to Germany? Don't let her crazyness or your efforts to second guess her crazyness stop you from making travel plans.

Good point about the bouncing. Just today she unblocked me on Whatsapp / text. I was a bit surprised at that.  Anyway, I think my second-guessing is really counter productive and the key IS to focus on MY core values. I leave on Monday and get to Germany the next day, Dec 20th.

As scared as I am to have a door slammed in my face, I think I WILL show up with flowers at her door as soon as I get in. She should be home and so should my daughter.

We'll see what happens. Thanks to both of you guys SO much for all your help and support. I'll let you know what happens!

What is status of conversations with L?

I'm concerned about not hearing about that... and seeing travel plans in place.

FF

I asked my L if it's a good idea to come back to Germany now. She said:

"Given she kicked you out and tries to force you out of their lives: yes definitely, you should show presence here as a father now.  If you want to go full force, Jugendamt, family court etc, we could start procedures right away, but it must be very soon... ."

I will try to get a consultation with her in the next two days.

Incidentally, my GF reached out. She "unblocked me" over text and when I saw this, I asked how out daughter is doing. She said, "M is doing fine".  She also sent me a picture of our daughter which is the first time in a month she has let me "see" her.

The next day she said, "I would like to know your address in California"

I didn't answer.

The next day she said, "I need to do some official things, that's why I have to know your address"

Whatever THAT means. I still haven't answered. Mainly because I will be there in a matter of hours.

I will still go with my plan, show up at her/our door. Tell her I'm there to support her and be a full-time dad to our daughter and that she can count on me 100%.

What do you think of the plan - and her opening up contact again?

I can't decide if the address question is an excuse to open up dialog and contact again OR if she HAD to open up dialog to try to get my California address for some nefarious reason?

Is this what you mean by a small "pull"? Or does this sound like something else to you?

STOP trying to worry about what she means underneath what she is saying to you. (i.e. needing your address for 'official' reasons) You will only drive yourself crazy that way, and start acting in ways that are more crazy and less productive.

I think your L is telling you that you better start demanding or asserting parental rights to see your daughter, and if you fail to do so, it will hurt your chances later.

Get more details about that.

... .and get in touch with her.

Your choice whether you text her that you are back, or whether you knock on the door first.

I don't know what she is likely to respond well too. (Personally I'd lean toward letting her know by text... .but I don't know her like you do.)

You're right. I have been doing this so long because of her "sub communication" and her contradictory feelings vs. statements. It has become second nature for me and is really unhealthy. This is part of the "walking on eggshells" I think.

Good point about the lawyer.

I think my best bet is to show up in person. If I text it's like I'm still not there and easier for her to continue to split me all black. At least if I show up in person, it throws a little cognitive dissonance into the mix: "Wow. He is here for Christmas. He flew all the way across the world to see me and M?"

And especially if I have flowers in my hand. She loves flowers.

This is good.  My wife loves flowers as well.  There have been a few times flowers have fallen flat... .but never... .I mean never... .have they "caused" a blowup.

I would match the flowers with a bit more subdued... .read even... .vice excited... .voice and physical posturing when you get there.

If she wants to hug... .go for it.  Just keep in mind that you are a calming force... .vice the force pushing more to extremes.

Since time is short... .I am going to suggest some big picture thoughts.

1.  You are there to be a parent.  This is a friendly and helpful thing to her, vice a demand.  (although you are preparing in the background with the L to be demanding).  (Do NOT ever tell her about the L)

2.  You are there to express interest in a relationship with her.  You want a good relationship with her... .  You know her best, take steps to get closer... .don't rush... don't push.

3.  Get with the lawyer.  Retain the lawyer.  Look to have several meetings with the L to make sure you understand the German law and the impact of taking action, versus waiting.  You goal is to shrink a big unknown of things you don't know.  Right now you are at a big disadvantage.

Again... .very important to keep you dealings with Ls and this board private.

Very likely a good idea for you to find a T there as well.  You will be involved there for a while due to your daughter.  You need to build a support network

Support network:  This site, L, T, friends, family, church, clubs... .basically anything outside the r/s with a pwBPD that can help stabilize your life.

FF

All great points. Thank you. Boarding now. Wish me luck!

Good luck.

And when you show up with flowers, be ready for whatever mood you find her in.

Have a positive attitude, expecting something good. It will help.

But be prepared to leave if she asks you to; don't make a bigger scene out of it if she isn't ready to see you or invite you in. Leave her the flowers and go if she insists.

 
Attitude is incredibly important.  pwBPD... .especially the women... .tend to have intuition on steroids.

So... .if you are "pretending" to be happy to see her... .they will usually detect that.

The point is not to fake it... but find some attitude that is positive... that you can go with. 

"I'm looking forward to seeing my daughters Mom again" may work if you are  unsure about your romantic interest in her.

Good luck... .you can do this.    |iiii

FF

Okay guys: here is how it went down.

No problems at the airport, no handcuffs, nothing like that. I don't even think anything has been pursued against me (because it would be bogus anyway).

I changed planes in Oslo, Norway, and entered the E.U. there, so no problems at all. Wasn't checked again in Germany, sailed right through baggage claim and out the front door.

I took a taxi to her apartment and got flowers on the way.

I rang her bell and she opened the door thinking it was her neighbor.  She was shocked to see me standing there with flowers in my hand (she took them from me).  Her jaw hit the floor. She opened the door to me and told me to come in.

I said, "I don't have an LA address.  I got my own little place around the corner. I'm here now in Germany to be a full-time father to M and to support you in raising her."

Her response: "What are you DOING here? Are you on drugs?"

(Half-jokingly)

I said, "Of course not. I told you when I was in LA my goal wasn't to stay there permanently, that I made a commitment to be in M's life and your life, too.  I don't understand why you don't believe me when I tell you this, but you just don't.  Anyway, I am here to support you and be a full-time Dad to M."

I hugged her (a few times) and she allowed me to do that, but she was stiff. But she didn't push me away.

Then she devalued: "Yeah, you'll be here for three weeks, then you'll complain about the weather or your new job or something else and just leave".

I said, "Of course I won't. You and M are my number one commitment. I am here for good. I am committed to being a great father to M and a big support to YOU. Listen: I travelled halfway across the world to be with YOU and M".

She said, "Oh no, not for me. I made up my mind about that. Not for me. I made up my mind already about us". (In other words, that she is "done" with me).

But it seemed like a weak rebuttal; just something she was throwing out there to protect her ego. I'm sure she told everybody that she was "done" with me and now will lose face if she goes back to me. Not sure what to do in a situation like that. But I didn't validate or invalidate her point.  I didn't even address it.

I said, ":), I love you. I am your partner and a few weeks ago before I left, we were talking about getting married and you were wearing my engagement ring on your finger. Then a couple weeks later, you said we were done and I don't know what happened. I don't want to talk about that now, but I just want to say I am so sorry for anything I ever did that hurt you. That's the last thing I ever wanted".

And I hugged her again and she hugged back lightly.

I think she was just in shock.

I tried to kiss her and she pulled away with "don't do that, don't do that".

I backed off, of course.

She warned up a bit, we sat down on the couch together and I put my hand on her leg like we always do and she allowed it to stay there for a bit. I think at one point she pushed it off but I can't remember. She DID seem glad to see me. There was a "lightness" about her that I sensed, in spite of her "distancing" comments.

She didn't seem to be in any hurry to get me to leave (but I had a taxi waiting outside), which Imthink was a good sign.

I said, "I would like to see M" (who was sleeping).

She said, "Okay", so we both went in and peeked in on our daughter as she slept. It felt so natural - I think for both of us.

Then we went back out to the couch.

She was warm and smiling when she told me about her plans to jet off to "somewhere warm".  But she still refused to tell me where she was going. We played a guessing game and she batted all my guesses down and finally said, "No, I won't tell you because you'll try to 'ruin' it somehow".

Which was weird. "How would I ruin it for you?" I think she meant I would call the airline and cause trouble or something. This thought has never once crossed my mind.  Like I would "jinx" the trip or something.

Finally, I said, "I would like to spend the day with you and Marie tomorrow. I can meet you downstairs at 8AM when you get ready to take her to Kindergarten.

She said, "This is all too much. I have to think about this. M will be really worked up and so happy to see you, then we fly out the next day and she won't see you again for a week. This will be bad for her."

She's really hung up on the "Now you see Dad, now you don't".

I said I had to go and she asked for her old keys back.  I told her I would give them to her in the morning. She was okay with that.

She noted that she was "out of water". Germans drink fizzy bottled water as well as tap water. When a guest comes over, they offer them fizzy water (it's basically seltzer water).  This type of water comes in big six liter packs. It's almost impossible for her to carry water up four flights of stairs and put them away.

So tomorrow morning I will carry over a few of those big six packs of water and put them away for her. I know she will appreciate that.

Basically, we kind of left things as "I will come over tomorrow morning".

So I think it was VERY positive. But, unfortunately, still a lot of resistance to US being together. No kisses and a few statements like "I made up my mind about us", etc.

Of course, I don't like NOT living with her and my daughter and I don't want to push the frame of "I'm just a handyman", but I think maybe with time we can slowly grow from where we left off - with me being a support and slowly "dating her" again.

Guys - thanks for all your help in this situation.

You have your signal from her... ."cut it in half"... .Stay interested... .Don't push.

Read your post again.  Do you see how you acknowledged her crazy statements?

She says you would ruin it... .You ask for explanation. 

Instead... .How about.  "Oh my... .Plans getting upset can be frustrating... ". Then... "I am sure M will love a trip... .It would mean a lot to me for you to take pictures for me... "

Play your game... .Not hers.  Don't try to have her explain her game... .Or try to assure her that she is wrong about you.

I think this was good step.

I am not a fan of you taking keys back.  Kick that can down the road.  I need to think about that more too.

FF

So my "signal" from her is her openness I guess. So I need to stay interested but not push (which I do a lot). I will back off.

I see what you mean by acknowledging her crazy statements. I "bought into" them.

SO hard for me to step back when I am being accused of something crazy and NOT try to defend myself.  I guess I feel if I don't challenge her / call her out on stuff that I'm being a pushover and it will lead to more bad behavior.

Okay, I will hang onto the keys for now.

She was VERY interested in knowing where I live now. I told her, "Some place around the corner behind our grocery store".

And left it at that.

Nothing wrong with giving the keys back if she asked.

Especially since you heard from the cleaning lady that the locks were changed, so they aren't good for anything anyways!

I'd make it a priority to see your daughter, and not let her talk you out of that.

And remember--it isn't your fault that she's taking your daughter away from you for a week!

Great... .great job on your analysis that I put in bold.  Many things with pwBPD are counter-intuitive, such as the bolded thing about more bad behavior.  "proving" her ideas aren't true is invalidating and will actually lead to more bad behavior, not less.  Maddening... .isn't it?

Go with GK advice on the keys.  I would wait until she expresses interest again.  

I can get caught up in overthinking "transactional" type things.  pwBPD tend to want you to give up lots of things and they give up nothing in return... .and see nothing wrong with that.  

However... .right now, rather than "battling" over smaller transactions, I think you need to focus on calm r/s with her and with your daughter.

Privately, in the background, you need to be getting set up to legally establish your parental rights (however that works in Germany).  

Keys, in comparison to these bigger issues, aren't worth attracting her attention on.

With that in mind, is why I mention waiting until she brings up keys to bring it up or hand them over.  Potentially, she has forgotten about it, and you bringing it up could "remind" her of why she "kicked you out".

Grey Kitty... .am I overthinking again?  

FF

Thanks! Yeah, I never really had the tools to deal with her properly before.

quote author=formflier link=topic=302516.msg12828757#msg12828757 date=1482329123]
Go with GK advice on the keys.  I would wait until she expresses interest again.  
[/quote]

Saw her today and she didn't ask for them back. Non-issue right now.

quote author=formflier link=topic=302516.msg12828757#msg12828757 date=1482329123]
pwBPD tend to want you to give up lots of things and they give up nothing in return... .and see nothing wrong with that.
[/quote]

THiS is the most maddening thing for me: her way or the highway. The rules don't apply to her, only to me.

Expect me to frequently drive you back to big picture changes in thinking.  Eventually I hope to get you to think "strategically" about dealing with pwBPD... .vice tactically.  If you have the strategic thoughts correct... .when she tosses a new "tactical" situation at you that "comes from nowhere"... .it is very likely you will do "good enough".

Zero chance that you can pre-think exactly how to respond to all the craziness she may dream up.

"Rules:"  I think as you come to understand boundaries better, this frustration about my way or the highway will get better.  It is likely you are trying to control things outside your boundaries and letter other control things inside of yours.

To be frank:  If something is inside her boundaries, "her way or the highway" is correct.  Inside your boundary is "your way or the highway".

Who controls boundaries for the child right now?

Yep... .the last question is a "strategic" one...  

FF

Okay, interesting day.

I left early at 7:00 to head to her place to se my daughter. On the way, I picked up 6 liters of water (which I know she is out of).

I got to her place and buzzed the buzzer. She answered and I said, "Wasserman" (water man) playfully. She said, "Oh, didn't you see my text? I don't think it's a good idea for you to see M - we're leaving tomorrow and I don't want to get her upset".

I said, "Seeing her Dad is the best thing for her"

She said (again, this is all through he little door speaker), "I don't think so"
I said, ":), let me come up. I have two big things of water in my hands"
She buzzed me in.

And there was my daughter standing next to her in her apartment doorway. I came in and spent time giving her Christmas presents and playing with her.

It was great.

I found out - by guessing correctly - that my GF is taking my daughter to EGYPT tomorrow. I told my GF a year ago that I don't want my daughter going to the Middle East... .period. There is too much instability and too many attacks on foreigners happening there.

I asked if I could go. She said, "You won't go on holiday with me. We're not a couple anymore".

I pushed a bit and said I would love to go and I could spend Christmas Day with them. She was kind of on the fence. I think if I were to just book a ticket she would probably let me go. Although verbally she kept making excuses like, "You're an American. You shouldn't travel there", etc.

I let it go. I'm very worried, however, as I try to make inroads into being back with her that she'll hook up with some dude while she is there. Not sure if she'd do that with my daughter around - probably not - but it's in the back of my mind.

She said again a few times, "Get it out of your head that we're a couple. You think you can pop in like nothing happened.  There is nothing left. You have to separate me from M and being a Dad to her".

But we did spend nice time together, acted like a little family like we were before, laid in bed together caressing our daughter. Her words say one thing, her actions another.  No touching between us, however.

She then had errands to run and I read stories to my daughter and cuddled her so she could take a nap. My GF left me there and my daughter fell asleep in my arms. She felt totally comfortable with me and didn't cry for her Mother (which she always does with other family members).

After my daughter woke up, I fed her lunch and my GF returned. She said, "You know that was a lot of trust I showed you by leaving her here alone with her".

I acknowledged this to her. I said, "I know. And I appreciate that".

Not sure if that was the right thing to say. In my mind I was thinking, "Are you kidding me, you psycho? I'm not the one who kicked YOU out when you were out of town, left YOU without a home and cut off all contact with our daughter for weeks on end. And you have the GALL to say that it was big of YOU to trust ME?"

It's really hard to take that bird's eye view and not just CALL HER OUT on this faulty / double-standard / projection-like thinking and statements. But I held back.

Her parents came and picked our daughter up. I said, "Can't they wait to spend time with her? I haven't seen her for two months and they see her almost every day"

She said, "No, they get upset if they don't see her - and since we will be gone for a week they really want to see her. I can always count on them".

So they picked our daughter up. I always feel in this relationship I give SO much and get so little recognition, reciprocity or "priority" with things. I'm our daughter's DAD!

I left a short time later to get a cup of coffee. As I was leaving the coffee shop, I saw her parents pushing my daughter in the stroller. I had a nice conversation with them. They're great people. I reached out to their younger daughter when my GF went no contact on me. I asked her what was happening, if she knew anything about my GF cutting me off from my daughter and explained that I'm a good Dad and it wasn't my choice to be out of my daughter's life. I told her what happened each time I left for a couple of weeks and how I had to beg to come home. She said, "Oh, we know you're not the bad guy here, we know you're a good Dad". That was comforting.

Speaking with her parents on the street, I made sure they knew what was going on. They did.  They shook their heads in disbelief as I explained happened. They said they knew my side of the story and were empathetic to me. This is important for me to get my side of the story out there since I know my GF has done a smear campaign on me in the past with some ex-colleagues and mutual friends.

I walked to a couple of bike shops for some parts and about an hour later - lo and behold - I literally bumped into my GF coming out of a drugstore. I said, "I think I know you. Don't we have a baby together?"

She said "yes" and was a bit standoffish and cold. She asked what I was doing, giving me the third degree.  I asked where she was going and she said she needed to get something to eat. I said I would walk with her.

She hesitated at first, but I said, "come on" and just started walking with her. We had a nice talk, got in and she ordered.

I told her, ":) - I didn't leave you. That was never my intention."

She said, "Yes you did"

I said, "Okay, if I were in your shoes, I would probably feel the same way. I'm just saying from MY viewpoint, that was never my intent. I was doing what we both agreed to: getting M's documents from the U.S. for her citizenship, visiting a sick friend with cancer and taking care of other business."

(Not sure if that was invalidating).

I said again, "I didn't leave you"

She said (coldly), "Well, I left you. You need to accept that. And quit calling us a family, we're not."

I said, "Okay, I respect your feelings on that".

She said, "Really. Don"t push".

We then discussed how I am "not the kind of guy she needs" because she can't "count on me".

Tough for me to hear. I think her "resoluteness" is due to the counselor. She said she really "woke up to some things" in counseling and she went for weeks and it was really tough. She said the counselor told her a bunch of things about ME (of course analyzing me without ever meeting me) that I "can't change".

She keeps insisting that we're done. She won't let me touch her. I tried wrapping my arm around her as I walked her back to her place but she pulled away. ":)on't touch me".

Not sure if there is much hope for us left as a couple/family.

This makes a lot of sense.


She does.

Which, I guess, means anything having to do with our child is "her way or the highway" unfortunately.

You have this correct.  As things stand right now

Please DO NOT discuss this with her, until you have talked to your L... .and retained your L... .and you are absolutely sure what your rights are... .and aren't.

You may get to the point where you ask for something... .or demand something... .the worst thing you can do is to demand or assert a right that you can't follow through on

Best to stay away from that all together, but... .pwBPD do really bad with "do this or else"... .and then your or else never shows up.  They already have "control issues" and "winning" control battles inflates their need for more control.  Their behavior will likely get worse.

If YOU win a control battle by following through... .they will eventually respect the boundary, even if they don't "admit" that they "lost".  Their behavior will likely get better.

Make sense?

FF

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