BPDFamily.com

Hi all,

Merry Xmas Eve! Wishing you all happy holidays!

I am starting to believe I am becoming more manipulative than I ever have been before. Does anybody notice this after they have detached from a borderline? And my memory seems to be a lot better as well.

Hi burnerin   

Interesting about you feeling more manipulative. Embellish?  :)

Regarding the memory part, yes, I too did feel more conscious of events with others after the relationship with the pwBPD. What's your experience?

I am not more manipulative, but I am more aware of the instrumental aspects of my interactions before and after my relationship with my BPD ex. To treat others instrumentally is to treat them as means to an end, not as ends in themselves. The philosopher Immanuel Kant is the source for this ethical distinction.

I am more aware of instrumentality in myself and in others thanks to my BPD ex. She said, "I always have ulterior motives, and I'm always aware of them." She was telling me frankly that she was using me, but I was infatuated and blind to it at the time. She had some other purpose for me despite the depth she was supposedly seeking in our relationship. She ended up using my deepest hurts against me. That is instrumentality at its finest. It is unethical. I'm glad I didn't stick around to see it through.

Instrumentality is present in everyone's life to varying degrees. We can't always treat others as ends in themselves. This is a fact of highly complex societies like ours, which get by on many fleeting interactions without any depth.

A bus driver, for example, is a means to an end: a means to get where one wants to go. One may also come to treat one's regular driver as an end in himself. I have a casual friendship with one driver who shares a common interest with me. We converse while he drives, and we enjoy one another's company, for no other reason than that we enjoy one another's company. This is to treat someone as an end in themselves. There may be an instrumental aspect. Perhaps he needs me to dispel his boredom. I feel his need, and I am happy to oblige. But he is not using me. He is not exploiting me beyond our casual relationship.

I don't have the time or emotional energy to do this with every bus driver. Most of the time I just want to get where I'm going. That is not manipulative, instrumental, or unethical. That is just the world in which I live.

My ex was deeply instrumental. She purposefully sought out my deepest hurts. Within the first week, she told me, "I want to know all your secrets." Later on, she used them against me. Based on everything she told me, she does this with everyone she gets close to, and she only gets close to men who she would "date" (i.e. who are susceptible to the "vulnerable seduction" strategy described at this website).

Burnerin, are you manipulative/instrumental in your relationships with close friends and family? That's where I expect serious problems of manipulation will show up. I can only speak from my own experience here. I don't see my siblings very often. When we meet, we're just shooting the s***. We talk about common medical problems that run in the family. We reminisce. There's no further motive. We do things together just to be together. We're affectionate, frank, and intimate, but as soon as the meeting ends, we go about our lives till the next time we meet.

There's nothing wrong with instrumentality per se. It is a special relationship indeed that escapes all instrumentality. Ethical problems emerge only when we lose sight of the person, and their unique needs and interests. The ethical demand to treat others as ends in themselves is a demand that we can all discover in our own experience. The demand can be exaggerated, as when we prioritize others' interest above our own. Conversely, it can be exploited, as we see in people with BPD and other personality disorders.

Well, lately I have been doing my make up more.  I know how to get inside people's heads.  I have been listening extra careful to what they say, using eye contact not being afraid of looking someone in the eyes.  Part of it just may be that I am gaining more confidence, but I never used to until now.  

I also want to get into a relationship before my ex does.

I want a better job than my ex will ever have.

Part of it does feel like manipulation to my ex, but I also want to prove her wrong. I feel like by wearing make up more and flirting more with people she might see that and get jealous.  I just want to be better than her and use everything she said were my weaknesses as strengths. So maybe I am trying to manipulate her more than anyone else, but also other people as well in the process.

Mostly to get a new relationship, and to get a new job. Not to hurt anyone, but I do know how to play the love game better than ever before as well.

Wow--a very interesting discussion you've started here burnerin. I appreciate your straight-talking manner.

I think perhaps your awareness of behaviours is helping you to be your own advocate.

Looking good attracts more attention and I think that's consistent with more confidence. You are maybe more confident with getting attention and handling the behaviours that come from that. Perhaps now you have a fresh example of what you might not want, it has given you confidence to search for what you do what?

Being more conscious of what people say can help you with your active listening, which is important both in and out of a relationship with a pwBPD. Nons over time may develop a stronger sense of listening because of repeated violence. A bit like a deer in a forest full of tigers rather than one living in an environment with no predators. Well done.  :)

Why do you want a relationship before your ex?

Why do you want a better job than what your ex is capable of?

Why do you want to make her jealous?

Recall that while all wants are valid after removing judgments, could these wants interfere with your long-term beliefs about yourself?

I admire your clear description of the behaviours you observe in yourself--and seeing how they are related to your wants--rather than jumping to a compulsive search for another relationship.  :)

---

Thank you for sharing about people as instruments  C<||| beggarsblanket. Very interesting!