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I have a very disordered neighbor who has lived next door to me for several years. Most of the time I limit my contact with her. Unfortunately she never stops trying to control me and all the other neighbors with her unreasonable demands. I blew up at her a few years ago when I was woken up by some hammering. She had hired some contractors to replace a door that she did not like on my house. I blew up and told her to never do any work on my house without telling me first. I have had a few incidents like this over the years, being very civil and distancing myself from her which mostly works. The problem is once she goes on a tangent of control, yelling at her when I can't take it any more is what seems to work.

I have always had trouble with her bothering me about the areas around my house, in particular the community storage area next to my house. In recent months, she has been on my case, to remove my sand bags which I might need if there is a severe rain storm and have permission to store there by the HOA all of which I have briefly explained to her several times. She recently told me she has been appointed to manage the storage area which the HOA President confirmed to me is not true. She has been bothering other neighbors about removing what they have stored there.

Yesterday was just too much when she once again went after me about the sand bags. I blew up at her and told her to stay out of my business. I have never had a bad temper, yet this seems to be what works to get her to leave me alone. At one time, I told her I would not speak to her anymore and she begged me to not do that. I gave her the silent treatment for around a year. It seems that no contact is in order again.

My frustration with this is I do not like to raise my voice with another person or to give that person the silent treatment. It seems that with some disordered people uncomfortable solutions that are not how I like to treat people are what work.

I posted this on this board because a lot of my discomfort with disordered people comes from growing up in a highly dysfunctional family and from ongoing traumatic reenactments. The narcissism of this disordered neighbor reminds me of my mother with BPD and some other disordered people who are/were in my life.

I still feel uncomfortable with being firm with people. It feels as if I am doing something wrong and I agree- it's from our childhood where if we did stand up for ourselves, there were consequences.

If we encounted a disordered person now, we can have similar feelings as with our disordered family member(s).

Given what you describe, I don't think it's unreasonable to blow up, but I understand your discomfort with doing that and would say that being firm and blowing up are not the same.  You should definitely be firm and not let her walk on you.

I've noticed for myself that sometimes I need to work myself up to anger in order to be firm (even though I know they don't have to be the same).  I mention in case it resonates for you.

Hi there,

I grew up with a "difficult" person in the family, and maybe that's how I learned to tolerate difficult people.  I ended up choosing a career which is notorious for attracting difficult people, maybe because I was used to it?  But even after years of experience, I still had to learn some tricks, especially when I became a manager.  At first, I was probably way too nice, hoping not to bruise any egos and to be liked as a manager.  I thought, if I treated others as I wished to be treated, with fairness, respect and kindness, that surely they would respond in kind.  But that doesn't always work, unfortunately.  Some "difficult" people won't take any hints, and they'll read "niceness" as weakness, as a reason not to respect you.  I think sometimes, you might do better if you speak their "language."  You see, what they understand best is assertiveness.  Instead of bending over backwards so as not to offend, they need to see you as tough and important, as well as intolerant of their baloney.  Now I'm not saying you should to fly off your rocker or do anything dishonest.  But you can be assertive, and I think that sometimes, they respond better to that.  It might be especially tough for women to do, because being assertive / tough is typically viewed as unseemly.  But I think it is more effective with this type of person.

So in your situation where somebody is lying about their authority and making unreasonable requests of you, while violating your rights (e.g. by encroaching on your property without your permission), and when they ignore you when you defend your rights in a civil manner, I think it's OK to speak to them in their own language.  You might have to adopt an aggressive persona, speak loudly and firmly.  I would relish catching them in a lie ("You have no authority over the storage space, you're lying and you know it. / You are trespassing on my property without my consent, and you know it. / If you trespass again, I'm calling the cops and reporting you to the HOA.")  Promptly escort them off your property, turn around and don't give them more attention.

I confess, sometimes I don't have to say a single word.  Sometimes just by standing tall, maybe with my arms crossed, and staring directly at them will succeed in intimidating them.  If they make an unreasonable request (Move the sand), I might say firmly, No I will not--and I won't JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain).  In cases of active trespassing, sometimes what I've done is take out my phone and snap pictures as evidence (including of their car and license plate).  The act of taking pictures will send a strong message, make them feel uncomfortable, and they will usually leave the scene quickly.  Maybe a passive way of doing this is to install a door camera, which might be another option to consider.

Just my two cents.

From my experiences, I think the core problem is that the disordered person obsesses over what they think is right over and over again until it feels like there can't be any other sensible outcome.  So you have the conversation, a week goes by, and that person has added 100+ hours of disordered dialogue to what you talked about.

You and I, we think logically and we can recall with fairly good clarity how things happened.  Yet if either one of us really fixates on it, our imaginations could take over and slightly alter important things about our past.  For example, a fisherman telling the story of the one he caught decades ago...that fish just keeps getting bigger and stronger every year.  I think BPD's do that x1000.

How you handle it is anyone's guess, because you can only control your actual part of the conversation.  What happens afterwards, within their mind, makes that last conversation much less relevant and leads to chaos.  That's why you have to keep saying, "Leave my sandbags alone!"  They might remember that comment but after so many hours of illogical self-dialogue, they conclude that's not what you actually meant at all.

I think we resort to yelling when we have just had so much of the behavior and are frazzled. I don't think we have intentions of being rude, or mean, it's more out of distress and after we've tried to respond calmly but can't seem to get through to them.

Pook has a point about disordered people thinking differently. We learn certain rules about boundaries early on. We wouldn't think of doing work on someone's house without their permission, and we asume others think like that too. So when someone violates a boundary out of the blue, it takes us by surprise.

I also don't like to yell at people, and it's rare that I do it but it's usually out of exasperation- like how can I get through to this person? I find that it works for a while to get them to stop,  but I don't like that I did it.

A difficult behavior for me is the discard/cut off/silent treatment. If people are being impolite, crossing boundaries- as difficult as that is- at least there's some interaction.

I find I put more value into a relationship than some other people. I will try to salvage a relationship, at least at first.

I had a co-worker with whom I thought we had a friendship. This person was not disordered. We had done things together outside of work, and I even was invited to her child's wedding. After she left the job, due to job dissatisfaction, I still contacted her. I realized it was one way- me reaching out and she was too busy. I understand that perhaps she didn't want to associate with anyone from her previous job, as she had been unhappy with it. I just assumed the friendship was more than that. Realizing it may not have been, and there was no effort on her part, I let it go.

Another person, whose reaction was so over the top, I suspect is disorded, was angry at someone with whom I worked on a committee. I was not involved in their altercation- I wasn't there at the time and I don't have a personal relationship with the person she was angry with. She disagreed with a decision made by the committee, and promptly cut contact with everyone associated with that. I know she was angry as she had words with me over it, then blocked and unfriended me and has not spoken to me after that. I tried to reach out but she's still gone NC.

What I noticed with myself is how much this affected me emotionally- it was distressing. I see that this is similar to BPD mother's behvavior of cutting off contact, silent treatment- when she was angry at people. Another similarity is that the reaction is way out of proportion to the situation. My involvement in her issues with this other person is minimal, yet she was willing to destroy a relationship with me over it.

In both these situations, I realize that the frienship meant more to me than the other person. Up to the discard- there were no issues that I could see. Nobody treated me poorly. I don't think all friendships are meant to last. Some are situational. Still, most of the time, they remain cordial, even if more distant. To completely cut all contact at once is baffling to me.

I grew up with a "difficult" person in the family, and maybe that's how I learned to tolerate difficult people.


Looking back, I now can imagine he blamed me for the extended delay.  In order for him to select a piece of their land, all to his sole benefit before the remainder was sold and proceeds split, the county required an easement so the remainder would be marketable.  Once he eventually selected a surveyor and naturally wanted the maximum land possible, officials stated it would make the remainder landlocked so an easement was needed.  He kept insisting I allow an easement on my property and I kept responding there wasn't room on my property for an easement.  So, in his mind I caused the delay?

There was a memorial for one of our cousins last month and I was seated on the other side.  It was as if the other wasn't there.

I appreciate hearing everyone's perspectives. Thank you for replying and your ongoing input. One of my friends recently told me that I get groomed by disordered people and I am just too nice. I was way too nice to this neighbor, while most people seem to get it pretty quickly that they had better distance themselves from her.

Unfortunately the neighbor has an unhealthy obsession with controlling what goes on at my place, having everything her way at the HOA (She drives the HOA President crazy with her unreasonable demands.), and keeps violating my boundaries. I wish I had been more affirmative with her from the beginning. I have tried to validate her when she does something nice. I doubt she ever gets much validation from anybody and she seems to crave my attention. I am at the point where I can't stand this woman and want as little contact as possible. Perhaps my extreme dislike of her will now allow me to set better boundaries with her. The other next door neighbor to her told me she just turns and walks away when she makes unreasonable demands. The HOA President told me he calls her out on her lies, which make her upset. He also says no to her unreasonable demands after spending years trying to work with her.

Recently life has been hard. I have suffered some pretty heinous betrayals from some people that I had poor boundaries with who were people I though I could trust. It is so hard for me to stop reenacting my trauma with people who are similar to my disordered family members. Please share your stories and give me some feedback on this. 

Hi Zachira, I also have a disordered neighbor. What's theirs is their and what's yours is theirs.  I also feel reluctant to act due to having had a dBPD mother.

I've done the same as you. If something happens I'll contact them but say nothing otherwise. Being friendly with them and/or doing favors in the past made me into a consistent target. I think it feeds the disorder.

They seem to implode at random though. They've harassed others in the neighborhood too.

Zachira, don't be so hard on yourself. I've had to learn the hard way how to handle disordered people. Most people do too. It doesn't come naturally. 

You can ignore her and not speak to her. If she can't control her behavior, you have the right to protect yourself. I think you're doing really well from what you've said.  You can't stop her from being disordered.

I would suggest contacting the police if she trespasses and destroys your property again. I had an instance where I should have and let it pass -- I was still learning to set boundaries. Actions should have consequences.

TelHill,
Thank you for understanding my situation. Like you, being friendly and doing favors for my disordered neighbor has made me a consistent target. For the future, it is all about having the lowest possible contact with her. The biggest challenge I have is feeling so unsafe having her around, like as you describe these type of people tend to implode at random. I never know when I am in for another round of being abused, and she really lives just a few feet away in the condo association. If this were my own privately owned home, I would have more barriers to limiting contact with her.

 

I have had this kind of thing happen and as Tel Hill said- being nice to these people seems to be an incentive to them to make you a target.

As kids, one of the first things we learn is the Golden Rule. A version of it is universal to so many cultures and it's so sensible, but we weren't taught how to deal with people who for some reason don't think the rules apply to them or through their own distorted thinking behave differently.

In addition, I also think there's something about us that these people can sense. Boundaries are on some level not conscious. I think this part is our upbringing. We haven't had solid boundaries in our FOO. We don't really know how to deal with these people. We try to make sense of their behavior when we don't think like they do.

There was a time when I experienced betrayal and also people being outright mean. One time, a person was yelling at me and I asked "why do you do that" and the reply was "because I can".  She was right- I didn't give the behavior back. In 12 steps we learned a slogan "we teach people how to treat us" and this is about boundaries and not tolerating abuse. I don't tolerate it now.

Still, my own sense of how I want to behave is important to me. I don't want to return that kind of behavior. I don't want to act that way. So finding a way to distance from this kind of behavior without acting like them is a challenge. The going NC/discard, cutting off is the more difficult.

I am less trusting these days. Emotional distance feels safer. I don't know if that is because I have better boundaries or am too defensive.

I think when we grow up with a disordered person, it is the "normal" we know. There are people in my mother's family who are estranged from each other. I don't know the reasons why. Maybe it's their "normal".

We assume a memorial is not the time to act out grievences but how a disordered person is thinking is anyone's guess.

Not Wendy, I very much relate to what you are saying. I am transitioning now to not tolerating abuse and it is scary but also feels good and right.

One of the things I have experienced throughout my life is the healthiest people know how to balance being kind while affirmative when necessary. Many people who did not necessarily want a close relationship with me were nice to me about my behavior when I acted inappropriately yet set the boundaries in kind ways that did not make me feel badly. I have noticed that the healthiest people genuinely feel sad for disordered people. In the last few years, more and more I feel sad instead of angry with disordered people most of the time. I have heard that underneath anger many times is sadness.

I have felt sad for my disordered neighbor most of the time however now I just feel angry. I feel she has pushed me to my limits of what I can tolerate. I don't like feeling this way, yet I believe in some ways this anger is sending me a very important message that I have to stop enabling people like her. I feel that this time I am really done with her, and I will limit the contact with her as much as possible.

I have been so grateful for many years to people who treated me well with firm boundaries who were role models for me. I went to my high school reunion to apologize to the most popular girl in my class who I treated badly. She ended up sitting next to me for dinner just by chance with all the hundreds of people there. I apologized to her as she soon as she sat down and she was genuinely taken aback. We talked a lot throughout the evening.  At the end of the evening, she gave me a warm touch when she left.

I am now a work in progress learning not to get too involved with people who show no interest in me and cannot emotionally reciprocate. For many years, I was willing to help people and not ask for anything in return. This has led to the relationships eventually becoming intolerable for me, when I was ignored put down for expressing my needs no matter how small and/or taken advantage of financially despite not having a lot of money myself.

Lately with the painful betrayals, the red flags were all there. I choose to ignore the red flags because I was lonely and wanted to be nice. It is time for me to get out and make some new friends, while keeping the few ones that are very much worth keeping.

I am sorry to hear this Zachira. I think it can be tricky "knowing who to trust".  If we trust the wrong person, and share more of ourselves and/or our vulnerabilities with that person, there is a potential that they can betray us.  They may or may not understand they have betrayed us.  I think my way of navigating this is sadly to trust very few people.  I trust my H.  I have one close friend (of 30+ years) I trust.  I have 1 cousin I trust (lives 800 miles away).  And I could trust my dad (deceased 21 years ago). These people I can count on to have my interests at heart. They know me well enough to understand me, not judge me, and still like me despite my flaws.  Beyond that, I don't really count on anyone, and learned early in life that people can't be trusted for all kinds of reasons.  People who are acquaintences I will chat and visit with about all kinds of topics, but I will rarely share anything private, such as info that has any potential of making me vulnerable at any time now or in the future. Even my 1 close friend calls me a "private" person.  I have other friends, and we have great conversations, but it is less personal - I chose to keep my vulnerabilities and private life private.  

I think growing up with my uBPD mom played a huge role in my trust issues.  I also think that being bullied through grade school played a role.  I recognized in mid adulthood that I had trust issues.  What I didn't recognize until more recently was where they could have come from.  Nobody would recognize from knowing me that I have trust issues unless I told them.  Let's just say that when it comes to personal conversations, I'm very good at being a reflective listener, and making it about them.  I rarely reveal personal info about myself, and keep it general.  A number of years ago I noticed that people I hardly knew were opening up to me about stuff I didn't really need to hear (eg. in the grocery store). I learned in my university days that a great way to make friends was to get people talking about themselves, which most people seem to like to do. LOL  I could pick and choose what to share about myself, but privacy was a learned self-preservation skill for me. The less I opened up about myself, the more I could trust people to not disappoint or betray me.

Since you are writing about a difficult neighbour, I can say I have encountered my share of triggering people in my life.  Some people here may remember that I came out of retirement and returned to work to find a "safe" boundary from my mom's demands. (She demanded my attention for her emotional caretaking and to do tasks daily for hours at a time, and if I couldn't do it as soon as she wanted, or when she wanted, or the way she wanted, I didn't love her).  So I went back to work, which was a "boundary" that made me unavailable to my mother.  That of course brought on a rage about what a selfish daughter I was.  One of my jobs that I went back to was a career job that I loved, but it was only 1 day a week, and I am retiring from that this July.  The other job was in a different sector that allowed me to use my skills and experience in a new way with a new audience.  I really enjoy this job and the clients I work with, but not so much the people I work with.  I have a small number of colleagues.  One of them (colleague #1) is dBPD and is open about seeing a psychiatrist once a week.  I give her credit.  I wish my mom had been able to do that.  Still, when this colleague has an emotional dysregulation in the office, it is distressing for me, whereas someone else might be able to brush it off easier.  My boss (colleague #2) also has emotional dysregulations.  That is the harder one and when she goes off the rails, everyone in the office feels it.  Even if it's not BPD, it feels too familiar with having had a mom with BPD.  Ironically, I went back to work (to a job I like) to escape my mom, but found myself in an office with people who have similar issues. And when I started the job, there was another colleague (colleague #3) who made me her scapegoat and what I underwent is called "harrassment" in the workplace. She slandered, and lied, and blamed, and accused, and called me names.  I was strong enough to know who I was, and just determined to do my job well and trust that eventually others would get to know me for who I am, and not this woman's lies.  Eventually she left the workplace, but my boss (colleage #2 also with emotional dysregulations) didn't have the skills to navigate the situation, and much of the time, wasn't even present. I finally lost my cool during my first performance review (when my boss accused me of some slander that colleague #3 had spread).  I am well known in my community with a solid reputation and wasted no words mincing what I thought about what she was saying and why.  After that she dropped it and seemed to respect me more. I let the results of my work show who I really am.  I agree with another responder here who said that sometimes with some people we just need to be assertive.  I would add blunt.  It's the only thing some people seem to understand.

While it's not at all the same with your neighbor, there are some similarities. The way it seems to me, we have unfortunately learned to recognize some dysfunctional people because of our early childhood experiences.  Now, later, as we have grown, and reflected, and learned new skills for coping with difficult people, it sometimes seems like they are all around us because we are so easily triggered by them based on our early life experiences. It was pretty unlucky for me to land in a workplace with so many difficult people when I went back to work to set a boundary to give me space from my mom.  You end up with a difficult neighbour living right beside you.  In fact I think there are difficult people everywhere for everyone.  They are in churches, on boards, in workplaces, CEO's, political leaders, neighbors, and in families.  Everyone seems to know one.  They just seem to be a fact of life.

People can be complicated.

It's almost unbelievable that your neighbour hired a contractor and "changed your door" because she didn't like it.  Does she own or manage the place? Did she have a right to do this?  Should she have given you notice? It sounds nutty.  How can someone do this?  I would be calling the police.  I think you actually showed incredible restraint.  I wouldn't beat yourself up about blowing up at her.  Goodness.  She obviously has issues.  I would hand her issues back to her by reminding her where her own door is and suggesting she could change that one instead.  Humour maybe?

My mom used to make fun of me every Christmas for biting into a glass Christmas tree decoration as a baby.  She would do this in front of family or company.  She loved telling the story and treated me as if I was so stupid I would bite into a glass ornament. I have no idea what she "got out of telling it" every year.  I was in my 50's before I finally replied by asking her in front of guests, why she hung a glass ornament on the bottom of a tree where a crawling baby (who puts everything in their mouth) can reach it.  She never once told the story again.  I didn't try to humiliate her.  I just asked the question out of curiousity in a calm voice.  After 40 years of being the dutiful daughter and listening to her tell that story, it ended with that simple question.  

Sometimes, we just have to find a way to bat the ball, or birdie, or issue, back at them, and let them sit with it.  

Not sure if that could work with this neighbor?  

Or adjust your schedule or routine so you don't run into her as much?  I did that once 10 years ago in a different workplace with a different boss.  She was just "too much" for me at the time, so I changed up where I parked and how and when I entered the workplace so I could avoid her.

Maybe none of these will work in your situation Zachira.  The truth is, I just feel bad for you having this person live so close to you, so I might be being too "solutions based".  These difficult people can be a "lot".  Don't let her rent too much space in your head.  She and her problems should stay on the inside of her own head, and on her own side of her own door.

Methuen,
Yes, the neighbor's problems need to stay in her own head and on her side of the door. For this reason, I have decided to go mostly no contact with her like I did for a year at one time. It worked, then as I begin speaking to her again she slowly began abusing me again. I have given her many chances and eventually she goes back to being more and more abusive as time passes.

Your stories about how you handled your mother with the glass tree ornament and the one about the coworker that smeared you are helpful. Sometimes we have to find an assertive succinct way to stand up for ourselves. I have had a few successes in handling this neighbor. One is to call her out on her lies. The other is to just walk away when she makes unreasonable demands. Mostly I plan to ignore her behaviors until I have to address them. For the future, I plan not to allow myself to get contaminated by her negative emotions as much as I can however I will try to be more compassionate with myself if I do get triggered. Those of us who have been abused by our Family of Origin have to continually cope with triggers. I know I continue to get better with coping with the triggers over time and with experience.

Sorry I didn't respond before on this, Zachira. I'm sorry you've endured betrayals. There's a lot of pain that comes with this. Hugs to you. Having a BPD parent set me up to be victimized by others (my ex-husband, a relationship I had after my divorce, my quiet uBPD brother) and to blame myself for not seeing how they set me up to use me.

It's  helped to watch those YouTube videos about spotting 10 red flags of narcissists. I wish there was a workbook or fieldwork with a guide to get practice. I have avoided a few people who seemed sneaky but am afraid to pursue friendships. It's been extremely slow process for me.

Don't know if this will help but I changed my posture. I read an article that the disordered pick their victims by their gait. They can tell you may be amenable to control if you have poor posture or look afraid. I looked like I've been abused. looked at my security cam and compared to others on the sidewalk I looked unconfident and afraid. I practiced better posture and took up more room. I've noticed a few people who I thought were sneaky back off from me on their own. It was a relief.

I was too friendly and fawning before, acting like I really was: desperate for friendship because of loneliness. I paid attention to what I was saying so they wouldn't reject me.  I was eager to please. I went full speed ahead instead of taking my time to get to know someone naturally. 

I was listening to the other person to keep the conversation going but not paying attention to the nuances of their words and behavior. I dismissed intuition if something seemed off.

I don't know if this is true for you, Zachira. It wasn't a very healthy way. You seem more self-aware and together than I was.

It hasn't helped me to confront my disordered neighbor. She's aggressive and is willing to fight over non-issues. She's said abusive, hurtful things to me. Avoidance works best to keep my peace of mind. This is how my dBPD mom abused me. I don't want a repeat.  I'm prone to having my thoughts contaminated (great way to put it) and feeling trapped and hopeless. I do something fun or comforting and that works to let the neighbor issue take up less room in my head.

My BPD mother would do this too, and also tell stories of me as a small child as if what I did was intentional. I "threw up on her carpet on purpose", "woudn't share my cookie". These were stories I just accepted from her- until as an adult I realized that these are typical small child behaviors. If a child has a stomach ache, they throw up- not on purpose. Little children don't understand sharing. There's no other intentions there.

I don't think I had trust issues, or even a fear of abandonment as a teen our young adult, but I was fearful of being transparent - especially if they knew about my mother. I think I somehow felt  it was connected to me, and I was afraid they'd think that. So instead I was a people pleaser. I thought that this is what I had to do around people. I realized over time that I would be able to make connections with a few people, not a lot, and I did trust these people.

I also wonder if what I considered a friendship or relationship that mattered to me might have been more one sided. I did feel attached to my father- but even so, his focus was on my mother a lot. But when this is what a child experiences, it's the attachment you recognize as one.

I think what we experience as adults can enhance or help the childhood issues. I think for me, trust issues happened over time as relationships I had trust in were not as solid as I believed them to be. I admit now to being more wary and hesitant with people.

I think NC and ignoring the neighbor is a good plan. I think a response or reaction to their behavior may be, in a way, a reinforcement to them- they know they can "get to you". It's also possible that this, to them, is an interaction, if they can't interact in normal ways. No response isn't a reinforcement to them. They may then move on to someone else who does respond to them.

Also protect yourself and your boundaries. If someone does something physical to your property without your permission that is a violation. It may be that a restraining order if needed. Still, less is best I think -when she gets nothing from her behavior with you, she may move on.

TelHill,
Yes, it is about changing how we portray ourselves to others and how we genuinely feel inside to stop attracting people who are like our disordered family members who just want to use us. Being aware of the red flags are important, yet being comfortable in our own skin while comfortable setting boundaries can limit how much we are involved with disordered people. I am working on being too friendly and not fawning over others.

I keep reminding myself it does not work to confront my disordered neighbor, yet there are times when I just have to say no to what she is doing.

Notwendy,
I wish it were possible that my neighbor would get nothing from me and move on. Unfortunately she is obsessed with having the whole property fixed and maintained the way she wants it. She has been hell to deal with for the President of the HOA, no matter who is holding the office. She will leave me alone for a while then comes after me for something.

Recently she had a meltdown in my presence about not getting her way about how the property is maintained. Right after I blew her off as quickly as possible, she immediately called someone and said she was being abused. She is just not a safe person to have as a neighbor.

It does work to give her less attention, though there is no safety as to when she will be on the attack again with her abusive demands and behaviors.

 

I do think the neighbor is being held more accountable for her behaviors than in the past. She used to have a lot of people who worked for her, regular visits from family and friends. There has been a considerable decline in who works or visits her since she retired several years ago. She used to be in charge of her work facility so she had plenty of outlets for her controlling demanding behaviors. Now the primary focus seems to be on her home and the HOA. I do believe that disordered people usually get worse with age.

Recently she hired a man to wash her windows. She kept complaining about the job he was doing even though he explained to her he could not do what she was demanding. He asked me to come over and evaluate his work. I said no and told him there was no way she was ever going to be happy with what he was doing.

I truly feel sad for her yet I know there is nothing I can do but go low contact as my attempts to be nice to her just result in her using me as her target to unload her unhappiness on.

I am the target of my disordered family. Recently I was dropped from the family email because they found out I was still on there by something I posted which was short and positive. I also have been betrayed recently by several people I though I could trust. The neighbor would not bother me as much if I had more people I could trust around me and less contact with disordered people. Slowly I am maintaining a few close relationships while letting go of the unhealthy relationships.

It sounds like the neighbor is receiving some of her Karma. Hopefully enough people will be "on" to her that she will lose her control abilities.

As to your family- they have been targeting you for a long time. You've had some past financial entanglements with them- I hope these are getting resolved or at least lessened. I know it's hard to deal with disordered people when you don't feel others are reliable. It doesn't sound like your family is worth your investment in the relationships and I hope you are able to disengage with them. Being put off the email is hurtful.

I understand the shock of seeing rude behaviors. I usually don't expect them and I am stunned for a while before responding.

Notwendy,
Yes, some people are onto her behaviors including the HOA President who refuses to give her unlimited control over how much of the HOA money she spends like she had in the past.

As far as my family goes, I am in the process of untangling myself from the financial obligations. I have been pleasantly surprised by a few family members who have treated me with fairness and kindness. One is forwarding me essential family emails though I asked him not to get involved in getting me reinstated on the family email in any way because he gets along with the rest of them and if they knew he was helping me, they would likely target him and his close family members.

It is amazing to me how many people are flying monkeys.

Thank you for your replies as I work through this. I think I am just at the point I can no longer tolerate this neighbor.

Hi zachira, I'm chiming in because I reported my disordered neighbor to the city for criminal violations.  I know she was fined for one of these. That sets a boundary. Talking to her other victims might help. 

You could have called the police for trespassing and destruction of property. If you feel strongly enough, you can consult an attorney to help you with options of dealing with neighbor harassment. The best solution is for them to move of course!

I'm glad you're winding down with your disordered relatives. I know these toxic people can create extreme stress and pain. They use everything and anything to hurt you on purpose.

I have to worry about my brother and cousin for an overseas inheritance problem. I'm divorced and have no children. They think I'm not entitled to my inheritance. I've been told get out, you don't own anything, mind your own business.  They've stated they want to sell some property. Cutting out me would increase their profits. I'm on my way to become a citizen and am choosing between lawyers. My brother and male cousin seem to be the gang leaders and the flying monkeys are  pressuring me to give up.

I feel overwhelmed that I'm the undeserving target of their bile. It makes me nervous to see lawyers and I get angry at them for causing problems. I feel totally betrayed by my brother.

I remind myself to not take it personally. They're insecure and have heard them put each other down.  And, I hate to say it, I'm 6 years younger and they've both had serious health problems. Knock on wood, I haven't. The children are more levelheaded and kinder. I'll be glad when all is set in stone and I don't have to worry about ongoing issues.

I hope these sources of worry get resolved soon for you, zachira. We deserve to live in peace.

You might consider installing a security camera to deter your neighbor. If she continues unabated, it would help you get proof if she tampers with your property. It can record her screaming at you. An attorney can definitely help you with video and audio proof of wrongdoing.

Hi Zachira
Human relationships are complicated by default and sometimes they can be extremely difficult. Even with our nearest and dearest, disordered or not.
This is the human condition. Please don't let this discourage you from trusting and opening up to people you know well and see where this gets you. You can protect yourself from the toxic and abusive individuals by distancing yourself and let them live their sad lives. It's not your problem.
I can relate to how you feel as I am a very private person myself with few friends and a difficult family life, but I try to keep things in perspective and not fuss over the unimportant situations.
Keep your cool always.
Regards.

Hearing everyone's feedback is so helpful and welcomed! The members here understand what is is like to be abused and the challenges of the road to recovery.

Yesterday I had a big "aha" moment. I ran into a long time friend with whom I often have long intimate discussions. I did not talk to him about my neighbor yet I felt seen and heard. Since then I have been feeling so content.

I realize that I need to cultivate more close rewarding relationships and spend more time with the people I value. Then I won't be so likely to seek out relationships with people who in the long run can only hurt me and when people are abusive I won't be so affected so deeply or for as long. I am vulnerable to being love bombed, then hurt when the person who love bombed me suddenly gets abusive. As this same long time friend told me in one of our past discussions not the most recent one: I am way too nice and vulnerable to being groomed. I recognize I do need to take the time to get to know people and be careful how much I share about myself until I know that the person I am with is someone I can trust.

As for my neighbor, in the beginning she was out of the ordinary nice to me. She was literally preparing me to be controlled and abused by her. Now it is time to permanently limit contact with her and to stop the JADING. By trying to explain my points of view to her, I just set myself up for more abuse and feelings of despair like I feel with so many family members who have made me one of the permanent family scapegoats.

As far as doing anything legal or calling the police. It has been several years since she replaced the door on my house without my permission. The areas around my house are HOA property. In the past, I have worked behind the scenes to limit her power and control. For example, at one point she was determined to have the property painted by her expensive contractor, would not allow my contractor to be vetted, and demanded we have all the buildings painted the colors she wanted. I went to the HOA and eventually got it so the other contractor was vetted and chosen for the job. I formed a paint committee with some other owners so there was a vote on the colors. The neighbor refused to be part of the paint committee, did not get her colors chosen or the contractor she demanded. She made the contractor's life hell and luckily he finished the job. All the owners got over a thousand dollars back from the original assessment which was for the neighbor's more expensive contractor. I do have options and power which is all about working with the other owners while having as little contact as possible with the abusive neighbor.

This is what I did with difficult people when I had a job. This is what I do with the neighbor. It's tends to remove the target from your back. They have an itch they need to scratch and will look elsewhere.

 I do this when the line's been crossed a few times. I don't confront the person but let the 3rd party (City agency in my case handle it fairly and justly).

People seem more isolated these days, including me. Having these various forces coming at us at one time feelings disorienting. I tend to think I'm the only one to go through this since my friends are few and far between. Everyone else is living happy lives is a holdover from childhood for me. Everyone has issues and deep disappointments.

Just as you said, September song, it's part of life. We all have weird bosses, neighbors, family and clogged sinks in our lives. These are things no one can escape.

I have noticed I go slower when I get to know people now. It gives me a chance to discern the person's character. I know I said that above so sorry for the repeat!

Going slow, taking time to know a person, and not being desperate for contact (either the person or myself) can really be the keys to discerning a person's character. The best relationships I have ever had come from knowing a person over time and seeing that this person pretty much never deviates from being a decent kind human being with firm boundaries no matter how difficult life is in the moment. I have a neighbor who has had some of the most terrible betrayals happen to her with close family members and significant others, yet she stays grounded and remains the kind caring decent person she has always been. I have told her many times how much I respect her for how she handles herself in different heartbreaking situations.

The disordered neighbor is right now sweeping and banging around in the HOA storage space adjacent to my house where my sand bags are stored. I realize now she reminds me of my mother with BPD who would go on these mad cleaning binges. My mother would do something like burst into my bedroom without knocking, demand I immediately sweep the garage, get mad it did not happen immediately, do it herself and then berate me for not doing it. It feels so uncomfortable being in my house and hear her banging around outside. I avoided her today which is really my only choice. Soon I will hopefully have my peace again once she is done. Right now I feel angry. She just lives too close to me and is so obsessed with controlling the areas around my house which belong to the HOA. The other neighbors have fewer problems with her as they live further away. She is elderly and deteriorating mentally. I have to remind myself things do eventually change. She will not be my neighbor forever.

It's hard when someone has behaviors that remind us of our mother. I've also had this experience. Sometimes the person is like my mother but sometimes they have a similarity in some way but aren't like her- yet it feels like they are.

I also would be feeling uncomfortable hearing the neighbor banging around. I think a quick relief would be noise blocking headphones, and also a sound machine when she starts doing this. A chain lock so she can't somehow come into your place, and you feel safe inside.

Notwendy,
Thank you for understanding how we can get triggered when we are around someone whose behaviors remind of us how our mother with BPD treated us.
It can help to know that this is a different situation: I am now an independent adult and not a dependent child stuck stuck living with a mother with BPD who can act out at any moment. This neighbor has made it impossible for the HOA to hire anyone to take care of the grounds because she demands that whoever we hire do all kinds of work to meet her standards of perfection that the HOA will not pay for. The contractors eventually quit. I can hear her frustration as she bangs around trying to take care of the areas around my house which belong to the HOA. I have to remember that these are her feelings and a situation she created for herself: Let her own her feelings while I work on keeping my peace. 

Exactly, well done.  I could imagine that your neighbor might intentionally be making a racket when she knows you're around to listen, a sort of passive-aggressive, thinly veiled expression of frustration, perhaps tinged with harsh judgment and superciliousness.  But remember, you don't have to be infected by her sour mood.  Try to do something else.  Maybe you can pity the neighbor for not having anything more interesting or substantitive to think about.  And you don't have to pay her any heed, UNLESS she messes with your property again.  Then you can take a picture and report her if you think it's necessary.  Your boundary could be, if she messes with your property without your consent, you report her, because she's not allowed to do that.  Otherwise, just let her work out her negative feelings without getting sucked in.

CC43,
Thank you for your helpful reply. I have some work to do on not getting sucked into her feelings. She is such an angry unhappy woman and I have been way nicer to her than most people would be. I have a lot to learn about setting boundaries with people like her: nice in the beginning, than show their true colors. One of my friends recently told me I get involved with the wrong people because I am way too nice. I realize I enable behaviors that other people would not put up with.

Zachira,

It's wonderful that you are nice.  I hope you don't see that as a weakness or a fault!  I think that you can still be nice, while not letting someone else's negativity get the better of you.  I know, it's extremely hard when someone in the immediate family has BPD--their aura is negative and toxic, probably most of the time.  You've developed a highly sensitive, bad-mood radar (short for Rage/Anger Detection Alert Response)?  The good news here is this woman is neither family nor living with you.  You can still be nice, and you can still enforce boundaries.  You can say, Good morning.  You can say, What nice weather today.  You can say, Can't talk now, I'm in a rush.  And you can say, My property is my private business, thank you for respecting that.  Always courteous, almost busines-like, and firm.

If this woman can't take a hint and continues to pester you about your property, you can repeat your phrase, My property is my private business, thank you for respecting that.  If she says, Yes, but . . . then your next line could be, Could you repeat that?  Like you're actually CONFUSED as to why she would have any opinion whatsoever about your private property, and that she'd disrespect your right to privacy.  If she still continues undeterred, then you could say, My property is none of your business, I'm not discussing it with you further.  Have a nice day, and walk away (or hang up the phone).  You might feel flustered after saying something like that, and that's OK.

The firm nice response to the neighbor does not work for me or anybody else. She mistakes this for an invitation to continue violating boundaries until she gets her way. I find that ignoring her completely, or blowing up at her works better than anything else. I am uncomfortable with treating another human being this way.

Glad you are having "aha" moments and figuring out next steps.  I hope this has already started paying off.

Wantmorepeace,
Yes, I am learning a lot. I have never had a bad temper. I just realized that the times I have blown up in the last few years have only been with this neighbor nobody else and usually about every one to two years. The silent treatment works as well with her.
I am realizing that she sees being nice as weakness and an invitation to keep pursuing her agenda until she gets her way. I like to be around people who bring out the best in others. She brings out the worst in me, through constantly baiting me. I will continue to ignore her, and hope she stays out of my way. She definitely has Narcissistic Personality Disorder so there is no hope that she will ever improve. Actually she is getting worse with age which I believe is what making me get to the point I just can't stand her any more.

My friend is right that I am too nice to the wrong people. I need to take time to get to know people. I am realizing the people desperate for attention who are charming at first tend to not be nice people at all once I get to know them. I am starting to develop more long term relationships with the right kind of people which takes time and my being present calm in my own skin which attracts the right kind of people.

I realized this with my neighbor, sibling and a few family members. They have an outsized sense of entitlement and act like it's their right to dominate you by any means necessary. You're right -- being cooperative and kind makes you look weak and pliable -- ripe for the picking, especially since no one is looking.

My neighbor pulled a trick which made it difficult to take my trash to the curb. Instead of writing or talking to them, I reported it. You could say that my refusal to talk is spurring retaliation. But the negging was worse when I was a nice neighbor. There were outlandish demands, verbal abuse and ridicule. I could see she enjoyed acting like this. You can't trust someone like this.

And like you said, zachira, I just can't stand her anymore. Silence is golden.

Exactly. How warped it is that we can't be nice to someone and have to do what we need to to protect ourselves.

I saw my disordered neighbor today and she said "hello". I ignored her. Dr Ramani a well known expert on NPD, talks about how giving second chances over and over again does not work because the narcissist never accounts for their bad behaviors, act like they never happened, and then start being abusive again. I genuinely like to forget past problems with a person, and continue to be nice to them. Not going to do that again with this neighbor as she uses my forgiveness to restart the abuse cycle.

It feels unatural to us to do this but I think you did the right thing.

It is the right thing.

Be prepared for lovebombing. When it fails, they'll try to get your attention in weird ways to make you talk to them.

I stopped talking a few years ago. Don't plan to ever start. It makes them realize forever is a long time.

Notwendy and TelHill,
Thank you for understanding. It seems we need to have a special toolbox for disordered people who can never apologize for their bad behaviors, use love bombing as a tactic to win people over then become abusive. Our challenge is to not take their behaviors personally even though the abuse hurts especially when it is a close family member or someone we have to see on a regular basis. The golden rule really does not apply with these people. I promised myself that I will never get into a competition with a disordered person of who can treat the other person worse as a vendetta, though certainly I think those thoughts.

With people on the NPD spectrum, they know the Golden Rule too. I think they assume the rules don't apply to them. I think for BPD- they feel like a victim defending themselves.

It seems that being nice to them doesn't work to have them reciprocate and be nice too. It just makes you vulnerable . I don't want to treat people poorly in return. Their behavior is on them. To retaliate is to operate on that level. So going to neutral- gray rock, not reacting, ignoring them, or in a social situaton, being cordial but not too close is the middle ground. Also boundaries.

Just noticed my neighbor left her garage door open. There is a bicycle and other things that could get stolen. In the past, I would have called her to let her know. The problem would be that if I did this now, it would start the cycle of abuse again. The neighbor takes my being nice to her as an open invitation to abuse and try to manipulate me. So sad she is the way she is and she is not going to change.

You have to look out for your own peace of mind and prevent your own suffering, zachira. I know it's hard to not help. Helping is usually the right thing to do unless it would do you harm. Obviously it would.

 I've been in a similar position with my disordered, toxic neighbor and decided to do nothing.  It gets easier with time and doesn't interfere with your ability to help others in safe circumstances.

Your neighbor's items are just material things and easily replaceable.  We are more important. I'm glad you're staying silent.

Generally, I would feel inclined to be helpful but in this situation, I'd also let her be. Her garage, and what is in it,  is not your responsibility.

I think it's difficult to resist stepping in to help as that is what feels "normal" to us and I also think we want to be good people. The other side of this is that we need to decide what is truly helpful and what we'd feel resentment over doing. I know if you saw your neighbor was ill, or needed help in a serious situation, you'd call for help- as a fellow human, regardless of your feelings about her. This isn't that situation. You are protecting your peace of mind here.

TelHill and Notwendy,
It really is comforting to me to know that you would not help the neighbor out in this situation because of how she would use the help as a means to open the door to more abuse. Thank you for understanding.

My friend told me I am too nice to people, and that is what makes me a target for being taken advantage of by the wrong kind of people. I agree. I am now dealing with a man I would rather not associate with whom I see in the park. He now wants to take me out to a new restaurant because in his words he would rather test the restaurant out on me than take his aunts there first and find out that the food is not very good. I have some work to do on setting healthier boundaries with people. At the same time, I enjoy interacting with all kinds of people. The boundaries to work on include not being such an open book and distancing myself sooner rather than later with people who are unsafe.

I don't know if true for you, zachira, but the cause of my 'being too nice' is freezing and fawning -- a response to childhood trauma.

I've become better than before by recognizing how I used to fawn over people who took my behavior as a green light to take advantage of me. I fawned to prevent them from verbally abusing me like my dBPD mom did. I don't fawn any longer.

I still have problems freezing with fear in a social setting. I tend not to correct narcissistic types, often becoming immobile and shaking inside with fear and confusion.

I can leave now after much self-work. Unfortunately,  I leave all the time now which is the other extreme. There's no abuse but no friends either.


That doesn't sound very nice! It reminds me of medieval kings who had food testers in case someone poisoned their meal.

He's a persistent, domineering type of guy who won't take no for an answer. In my experience they will not respect your decision to say no to a date. They tend to get angry when spurned, saying something cruel or inappropriate.

This is just unsolicitated advice but avoid going to the park for a few weeks when he's there or go to another park. Act cool and distant to him when you return. You have the right to  not talk to him anymore. Telling him the truth leaves you open to abuse.

I'm reading a self-help book to recognize disordered people and find healthy people. It's called 'Safe People: How to Find Relationships that are Good for You and Avoid Those That Aren't' by  Henry Cloud and John Townsend. They list the types of behavior to look for and why this behavior makes a person unsafe.

I took this as a a strange way of asking you out on a dinner date!  I agree, it's not really a nice way. I'd avoid the park for a while too.

Many years ago, there was a person who I think was disordered. She moved so I haven't seen her in a long time. During that time, she made friends with my friends and I have no idea what she said to them.It seemed someone- one of them, would be yelling at me. One time I asked- why are you yelling at me and one answered "because I can".

Who does that? I've had the issue of being "too nice" to people. Seems this adult bully found someone to pick on and rounded up some flying monkeys. I heard after she moved that she was mean to other people I know too. She runs a business in another city and I saw a review that she yells at her employees too.

I had to work on being nice but not too nice. This doesn't happen anymore but I think I also tend to go too far in being distant from people sometimes. I do care about how I behave with people and treat people with decency and also haven't stopped being helpful in situations that I choose to- but I perhaps I "read" people better?

However, you should be able to enjoy the park- it's not his park. I'd avoid it for a while to create some distance with the guy,  but in the future, he needs to know you aren't interested in further talking with him. It's hard to say when we feel we need to be nice, but don't enagage him in long talks and if he brings up dinner, be direct and say no thank you.

TelHill,
Your feedback about freezing and fawning really resonates with me, especially the fawning. Someone abuses me and then I often try to say or do something nice so the disordered person won't be upset with me. I am a work in progress in learning to disengage as soon as the abuse starts. It frustrates me no end that I can't be honest with a person like my neighbor who has no capacity for empathy. I am doing better in spending more time interacting with really nice people. Going to the park is really important to me. It is a good place to work on my boundaries including with this man who I need to avoid or disengage from quickly when he approaches me. He is friends who another abusive man who I know and he introduced himself to me by commenting on how we both know this guy.

Notwendy,
It seems the abusers really scan the horizons to see who they can take advantage of. I am sorry that you had such a painful experience. Betrayal really hurts. I think our best traits can often be our downfall in the wrong situations. I don't want to become a person who avoids meeting new people because I enjoy all kinds of people. I don't want to avoid the park because I enjoy going there for my daily walk and engage with lots of people who I truly value. It is a free public park so there are all kinds of people there including some of the most disordered. Many years ago, my therapist asked me if there were quite a number of mentally ill people there when I was telling her some of my experiences and I said yes. It is not your typical situation in which there is a more strict screening criteria like a job or a place where it costs money to be. It is a very safe park. People are there at all hours of the night. I like your suggestions on boundaries. I will continue to work on setting better boundaries. My FOO has some of the most awful boundaries: either too rigid or too loose. 

I freeze and fawn too. Once a person at work snapped at me. I went back to my office to sit there until I could get my bearings. She later apologized to me, saying she was having a stressful day. She's not disordered, and she went about this the way someone without a disorder would.

It even happens with strangers. I was at a restaurant when a woman at a nearby table said something mean to me. I had a freeze and fawn reaction. It was really out of line but there are disordered people everywhere.

I think if we try to make connections with people, there's some risk to that, but the alternative is to not have friends at all. When someone breaks my trust though, it's very difficult but I get better at not letting it get to me as much.

It recently happened with someone who I thought was a friend. Well, she disagreed with something- remotely connected to me but not directly- it was with a person I also worked with. Her reaction- to block and unfriend everyone connected with that person. So, I found myself blocked, unfriended and without any contact with her and it's gone on for several months now.

My first reaction was similar to how I reacted to BPD mother- as if this was something I needed to fix. Emotionally, I was distraught - I think far more than the actual situation called for. I think this brought out the response to- if BPD mother is angry, I needed to somehow fix it as if it was my fault. I did try to reach out to her with no results.

It's not like me to discard friendships like that, and unless it's a major transgression, I try to work it out, if possible. But this was the familiar BPD like split. Sometimes we don't see something disordered until we do. I'm not upset about it anymore.

For the moment though, I am less inclined to try to form a new friendship with anyone. I don't think it's good to self isolate but also, I feel a need to be protective for now.

It's frustrating to me too. There are many immature adults and those with traits of personality disorders around.  Protecting yourself from those who want to control and dominate you is necessary. Your life can be derailed by them.

I agree that it's key to cut off contact quickly should they turn out to be abusive. I'm glad you're doing this too. It helps to build self-confidence and peace. It helps to get out of the freezing and fawning response. We deserve it after too many years of abuse from our FOO.

I like walking in parks too and I agree you have a right to go when you want to. Be cautious.  He might say something hurtful and give you nasty looks in the park for a bit. Turn him down in a crowded part of the park. 

I had something similar happen over the summer on my trip. My disordered cousin has been trying to unload her divorced BIL on me for years.  He has substance abuse problems. He is not my type.

My cousin is responsible for cooking and cleaning for her BIL.  I'm sure my cousin is fed up being his unpaid housekeeper.

 I've said no politely twice and have made it clear I'm not interested. He and my cousin have tried again over the summer. Saying no does no good so I was short in my greeting or ignored him. I thought that might help.

My cousin and her husband stopped talking to me as a result. It's annoying to be a target of manipulation.. I think they want their hands on my house which is in a nice area.

I'm going to say no again because it will bubble up if I go this summer. I accept it if my cousin doesn't talk to me. I resent the attempt for control and domination. Then they punish me if I don't comply.  I want to talk with other men there and may have to deal with being smeared. 

My BPD mother would do the "refusing to speak to you" and also tell other people to do this too. So if other people do that, it's very distressing at first, but then I have learned to deal with it better, realizing it's a disordered response.

I can understand someone feeling at a loss for words and needing some time to compose themselves but this is different from a prolongued intentional cut contact.

Your cousin's BIL sounds like a walking red flag.

I've been on the receiving end of snarky, rude comments in public as many of us have.  I ignore it and smile to not egg the person on.  Or I just ignore it with a blank face like it didn't happen.  I try to get away from them as soon as I can.


I'm sorry this happened to you. I don't blame you for stepping back. We have PTSD from a young age from being emotionally abused by my our mothers. It's exhausting to deal with these situations as an adult since it brings up hurt and anger from a very early age when you were totally dependent on this person.

I had incidents with another relative and her spouse on my vacation last year where I was treated in a pleasant manner but can't help thinking it was cruel and self-serving. They repeated painful information only my brother would know. Then they tried acting like they were my best friend trying to help me.

 I can't help but think they were pumping me for information as flying monkeys to my disordered brother in hopes of broadening his smear campaign against me. I wanted to be honest and confront it and them. I sensed doing that would ignite their own smear campaign against me. I played dumb and ignored them. I was pleasant and began talking about unrelated things. They persisted when I saw them gossiping about others to get a reaction out of me. I believe they planned to spread my reaction around to smear me. I ignored it.  It was unnerving but didn't know how else to protect myself.

I promised her some photos when we got back home. She seemed excited that I was going to send them.  I really didn't want to and procrastinated but finally did thinking I misread their intentions. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. She wrote back saying, I have these.  There was no acknowledging my effort or a thank you.  I saw her and her husband at a large family gathering recently. She stood away but her husband told me to stop overtalking people the minute I said hello. Maybe this was from the summer? It was out of context. I ignored it though I can't say it didn't sting.

I plan to return to this vacation spot this summer. I have a right to be there. I plan to stay away from these people though. It's exhausting. I tried being kind and friendly to them. It's very disappointing.

Yes, it may not be possible to completely avoid extended family. While it's unlikely that all are disordered, some may be and also family "patterns" exist. The patterns that seem "normal" in the family when people grow up with them. That may be a part of why the seemingly non disordered ones feel inclined to be flying monkeys.

Since I didn't live very close to my BPD mother, and we had different "circles" of people we interacted with frequently, it seemed safer to assume that anyone in her circle was someone to be cordial with when I saw them, but not get too close to.







 

I'm not used to the silent treatment since my late dBPD mother would keep talking and raising her voice when upset. Good advice to carry on and not give in to pressure.

It's unpleasant to be subjected to an unnecessary push and pull to assert dominance, status or choose sides in a family drama. I try not to do this and it's jarring to be the recipient of it. I always think we should get along since we are family. I'm not sure if they are disordered but the patterns are. I suspect alcohol abuse may play a part. I beat back a challenge to some land on my dad's side on my own without help from a lawyer. They were trying to cheat him and I helped him. There may be fear I'll do the same to them as this is my mom's side of the family and there are outstanding issues.

I left home at 18 to go to school to get away from my overwhelming mother. My view of the family was her only and not pay attention to anything else.

Maybe I look like an outsider to them. I've lived a different life with a pretty good career and have different interests. I'm sure there's resentment. I've not had to lean on my FOO for much.  Frankly, there wasn't much from them anyway with all energy going to my mother's terrible behavior and my brother's issues. I've turned into what my parents wanted for my brother. Or maybe it doesn't matter. If you don't fit the mold and you do not choose alliances, this is what happens. You're on the outs.

Cordial but distant is a good way to put this, notwendy! This is me being disinterested in drama.

I admire how you use the quotes in a box to respond to members. Can you tell me how to do that?

I saw the man in the park who wants me to go to the restaurant with him even though I have not shown any interest. I quickly made an excuse not to stand there and talk with him. As I was walking away, he asked me when we were going to the restaurant. I told him that I was not interested. His response was to tell me he is not interested in me, that he only wants to be friends.

This guy is one of the most curious people I have ever met. I feel no connection to him which is unusual for me and it seems most of what he tells me is not true. I only ended up talking to him some because he kept reaching out claiming to be a friend of another disordered person he has seen me with and I do not like to hurt people's feelings. Sometimes we have to pay attention to the red flags right away and distance ourselves. This is hard for me as I like to be nice to people and help those who are lonely who often are ignored by most people.

TelHill and Notwendy,
Your families are clearly full of flying monkeys like mine. It is so hurtful that someone would allow themselves to become the abuser of another person when they really don't know both sides of the story and that they would choose to be an abuser.

My latest incident with my family and the flying monkeys is I have been taken off the family email list. After several years, I made a brief harmless comment and received no more emails. I asked to be readded several times and got no response. Another relative is sending me the important emails. I suspect my sister with NPD asked for me to be taken off the email list. It never ceases to amaze me the power she has as family golden child to influence so many people to target me. Yet when I think of family history, I realize that the other family scapegoats could never get any recognition of all the nice things they did for the family and their reputations trashed whenever possible. I am proud that I did not get all that upset about being excluded from the family email list, as I realize it is not personal and I do have a few decent relatives who have been very kind and generous despite how much garbage they hear about me.

Sure, zachira. You click Quotebox on the upper right side of the message you want to quote. It pops into the reply box. The code looks like this:

[ quote author=zachira link=topic=3062240.msg13235506#msg13235506 date=1778256725]
Msg msg msg

[ /quote]

You see the above instead of the box because I disabled it by putting a space after the [


I don't believe he's looking for friendship. Men often say that if they feel there's a chance to wear you down for a date. I'd be wary if he knows you own a condo. He might give you a sob story about being evicted, losing his job, etc., to move in for free rent. You'll never get rid of him.

It used to be very hard for me too. It takes practice and a few times of being taken advantage of to kick your instincts to protect yourself into permanent high gear.

I assume that there is a family text chain I've never been invited to based on my brother letting strategic, short truth bombs out regarding texts he received from various relatives followed by his smirking. One part of me doesn't care but the other part does. I asked a cousin to let me know important news after our cousin passed away and my brother failed to tell me until after the funeral. He wanted me to look bad for not attending. There was a more distant cousin who passed about the same time. I knew about it and wanted to go to the funeral. My brother told me I wasn't invited. I didn't question it but now believe it may have been a lie to make me look bad for what might look like skipping it. True evil.

I have noticed a symptom of sociopathy/psychopathy my brother has which makes his smearing more believeable. It's called a flat effect which goes hand-in-hand with zero to low conscience. He shows zero emotion with a happy, pleasant face. It's not flat like being catatonic but it comes across as calm and in charge. I've seen him lie with this calm demeanor. It's a strange thing to see -- no nerves or fidgeting.  Maybe your sister is the same?

It's good you have some decent relatives looking out for you! If I do my brother has run ahead and smeared me.

I don't believe he's only looking for friendship either. What gives me caution is this indirect way of asking you out and also it's insulting. Taking someone out for dinner to test the food before you take someone else out is already putting you one down.

IMHO, someone who wants to take you out to dinner will ask, directly. If he cares about you, he wouldn't make this comment, he'd know the restaurant was a good place. It does sound like he's joking a bit but on your part, if you accept a less than acceptable place to eat, he then knows you accept less than kind treatment. By acceptable I don't mean it has to be an expensive 5 star restaurant but some place he's been and likes and thinks you'd like it too.

"There's a great Mexican restaurant nearby- want to go get something to eat sometime?" is a casual, yet direct way to ask.

Someone who respects your boundaries wouldn't push the "no thank you" to his dinner invitation. That he keeps pushing it, tells me he doesn't. I don't think he's a good choice for a "just friends" either.

Seeing what you don't want here can also start you thinking about what you do want in a potential friendship or relationship. Direct and clear communication, respecting boundaries, to name a few.

Imagine you meet someone who you would like to get to know better? And he asks you to dinner, directly.

I'm not single but if I were, I wouldn't go anywhere in someone's car or accept a dinner invitation right away from someone I don't know well. I would reply, directly- I'd like to get to know you better but I prefer we meet for coffee first. If he respects that boundary-  pick a place, drive there with your own car, and it's coffee only until you have checked him out, and feel you know him better.

Some time ago, I received an email when someone in my mother's FOO hit "reply all" instead of "reply". At first I thought it was about BPD mother- discussing mental heath issues- but reading it, I realized that they were discussing me, and how they came up with these ideas, I don't know how they came up with that but most likely because they assumed the difficulties in our relationship were because of me, not her.

This created some distance between us, because, I was embarrassed in their presence. It's hard to be around people who think you are disordered. Later, BPD mother got angry at me and they didn't communicate with me.

Then, BPD mother, in what was a push pull, I think, tried to smooth over communcation with them. She forwarded me a group email with a topic of interest to the family- and asked if I was interested. I looked at the email list and saw that I was not on it. So, I replied- no, I wasn't included.

They later realized more about my mother's behavior and reached out to me. We have reconnected. It's better, but still difficult, as now there's been distance between us and I still feel wary.

I don't believe he's looking for friendship. Men often say that if they feel there's a chance to wear you down for a date. I'd be wary if he knows you own a condo. He might give you a sob story about being evicted, losing his job, etc., to move in for free rent. You'll never get rid of him.

It used to be very hard for me too. It takes practice and a few times of being taken advantage of to kick your instincts to protect yourself into permanent high gear.

The quote above from TelHill makes perfect sense to me and to Notwendy.  Thank you TelHill for this one. I have a lot of practicing to do in setting boundaries with abusive people. I let them get away with too much and then it is more difficult to set the appropriate boundaries. As the family scapegoat, I got too used to appeasing abusive people. I no longer have to do that most of the time, though there are situations in which being nice and getting away fast makes sense. 

I have not seen the man in the park since telling him I do not want to go to the restaurant with him. He used to seem to be waiting for me. I think he was told by another abusive man that I know that I am an easy target. I knew from day one that this man was bad news yet I was nice to him. Nothing he ever said rang true. So I have no idea what his true agenda is, and maybe he is indeed homeless, broke, etc., At any rate, he is looking to take advantage of a woman. 

TelHill and Notwendy, you both get it, how the smear campaign works.                                                                                                 

I saw a clip of President Reagan telling one of his life lesson jokes.  A girl came up to him and he asked what she wanted to do when she grew up and she said "I want to help the homeless."  Her parents looked so proud of her.  He said, "Why not come to my home, cut the grass, sweep the driveway and I'll give you $50 to give to the homeless."  She pondered that then asked, "Why not let the homeless do that work and earn the $50 themselves?"  The president replied, "Welcome to my way of thinking."

I was formerly in law enforcement and this makes me curious.  How many times did you see him?  How many times did he talk to you before asking you to dinner?


This is why I'm asking these questions- this is a serious allegation.  If there's another guy who was bothering you and you think he sent this guy to bother you, we're talking potentially criminal stalking (depending on the state).  Why do you think guy #1 sent guy #2 to talk to you?

Also, is there any direct connection between the two?  Maybe you've seen them talking before, or maybe they're the same age or live on the same street.  Anything like that stand out?


If you knew he was trouble, did you dismiss him immediately (in a nice way)?  I'm just curious how the interactions went.


It definitely makes sense to stay away from him.  If he start "appearing" again, I'd think about calling the police.  Did you see him near your home?  I'm thinking he has to be a neighbor or somewhere nearby where you frequently walk, but I don't want to make assumptions.  Again, I'm curious and I want to make sure you're okay.

Sponging, mooching and freeloading should be noted as symptoms of BPD. Every disordered person I know has attempted to exploit me financially.  No gift was ever good enough. They expected emotional support too. Nothing of value was given back to you and my emotional problems were in my  head. I was  just a whiner and complainer. That's my real problem.

I'm in a large city and it's common for men to harass and bother women in public.  I've learned never to respond, to look away, and stop frequenting a spot where a man has been harassing me.

Women who have suffered trauma often freeze and fawn when confronted with potentially scary situations. Being pleasant can help smooth things over temporarily. Most men get you're not interested but some disordered men persist like that unfortunate person bothering zachira. She was distant and he still wanted to pursue her.

It's good to report as long as the man doesn't know it's you. You want to avoid retaliation from a man who is bigger and stronger than you. The police can't watch you 24/7.


I'm glad he's gone!  :wee:  You set a firm boundary and asserted yourself. Men like that often have a few women they pursue.  If he struck out with each of them, he moved on elsewhere to try his luck. He's like a fisherman finding another spot in the lake if one doesn't work.

I don't know about being an easy mark. They are more like an annoying salesman who keeps talking to sell something you don't need or want. They keep talking because you do.

Keep using your instinct to separate the respectful men from the unfortunate creepy ones. It'll be easier to say no thank you right away.

Both of these men who are abusive seem to be avoiding me. I noticed my disordered neighbor also avoiding me. All three of these people seem like fraidy cats to me. I think they are more afraid of me than I am of them when I set firm boundaries.

The key here is to work on my bad habit of letting abusive comments and demands just slide and to continue to be nice to these people because I do not like to confront people, to seem mean.

I agree with TelHill that certain men will bother a woman then disappear elsewhere when not getting results. A few months ago, there was a man being too friendly to me. The first time he said hello to me I responded in embarrassment because I thought I actually knew him and  had forgotten him. Then I realized I have an unusually fine memory for people and rarely forget anybody. After that I ignored his comments and attempts to get my attention. He was always well dressed and fairly good looking for his age. On day I walked by him as he was getting out of his car. His car was full of clothes and I am sure he was living there. He did not bother me after that, like he had been found out.