BPDFamily.com

Hello, forum.

I've been wrestling through my marriage for years (and the entire relationship itself) for just shy of a decade. As I dive deeper into an understanding of what BPD is, how it manifests, how DBT works to create a pathway forward... I realize how thankful I am to have had the opportunity to read and learn from everyone else. I've been fortunate to have a good emotional support group that knows my silence means I'll reach out at some point. I have a good therapist who shifted her focus from me wanting to exit my marriage to figuring out the reason I stay, and what "love" means in context. I wish I had started this journey (pwBPD courses, reading, direct mindfulness) so long ago. I've read from so many of you the reasons you stayed. It feels so good to feel less alone.

I begin my first group coursework this Friday. As the male partner in my relationship, I've felt very confused by the emotional and physical abuse. Am I not supposed to be able to take this? Am I not supposed to just ride the storm? I realize that a partnership with a person with BPD isn't limited by gender or sexuality norms; it's complicated. No single thing is the root cause. I've practiced validation to the point that I've invalidated my own emotional existence. I've allowed boundaries to be confused with demands, living my life trying to rebuild an eggshell puzzle every day. I am so, so exhausted.

Reddit's pwBDP thread is a toxic environment. No shame to the people who found their exits, I just find more "aren't they crazy" and "so glad I left" empathizing than a real, honest look at why we stay in the first place. I recognize that leaving - if that's my path - is at constant war with staying.

So I'm posting here in anonymity because it feels good to finally admit... yeah, this isn't normal. Sure, I have things to work on and habits to change and pieces of me that can always improve... but this isn't normal. I am not in a "normal" relationship (let's define normal as non-abusive and moderately irrational at its worst, barring a few outliers). And this is hard. And my soul hurts. And my feelings hurt; they're in there, somewhere.

Thanks in advance for existing. And thank you retroactively for having provided so many opportunities for me to read, reflect, think and compare stories. This is hard.

Welcome to BPD Family, a peer support group of people who have "been there, experienced that".  We're not here with legal advice, that is provided by lawyers, solicitors and other professionals.  But our peer support includes collective wisdom based on many years of hard-won experience.

Please browse our various boards, each one focused on a variety of things we have to deal with.  For example, our |---> Tools and Skills workshops (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0) board has a variety of topics that are necessary to know but not very intuitive.  Examples are identifying practical boundaries and using communication skills such as SET, DEARMAN, etc (and why logical JADE so often fails).

You mentioned your marriage is approaching a decade.  If you're in the USA, one positive - in the midst of a world of hurt - is that both spouses of a 10+ year marriage can benefit from the higher of either spouse's income history once they reach retirement age.

You haven't mentioned whether you have children together, so I'll add this just in case... There are many reasons to ponder whether to divorce.  One that is not so intuitive is how the children would be impacted.  A common perception is that the marriage must be held together at all costs for the sake of the children.  Yet the opposite might be true... If a person decides the marriage has failed due to serious mental health and behavioral dysfunction, the children are impacted...

Hi and welcome - nice to see you posting :)

Yes, 'normality' is the last thing we get in a BPD relationship - the best we can hope for is periods of 'near normality'as we walk in a massive minefield carefully minding our step.

It's good to see that people can make a life out of it though, especially if the one with BPD recognises they have a problem and commits to therapy. Every case is different and everyone's limit is different and sadly, sometimes there simply is no other option than to end it, for the sake of sanity and health.

Ironically, we stay in the relationship because it isn't normal; we're meeting someone who, at the start, seems so utterly perfect for us that we can never envisage anything going wrong. It's a big emotional high and it takes a strong hold of us. Of course, once the idealisation phase wears off and the BPD kicks in, we're already hooked on the line and are now in the 'push/pull' cycle which takes over.

My own relationship lasted 4 years but was getting worse, she never accepted she had problems and the whole world was against her so ultimately there could only be one ending, as I wasn't prepared to accept such a life of ever-increasing conflict.

Feel free to post further - we're all in this together :)

Hello and welcome to the family!  I'm glad you're off the Reddit boards because those are toxic for everyone involved.  Hate brings more hate, and who's right or wrong when everyone is there to complain and talk junk about other people?  That's the world we live in these days but it certainly is not for me.

I'm glad you posted in the "conflicted" section because you certainly do have options.  Your spouse is sick and communication is difficult.  The relationship is also unfair to you at times (maybe, a lot of the time).  But as communication improves, so does the relationship and the explosive moments.

I will never tell someone to leave or stay, unless someone is in obvious physical danger.  Then they run!  But otherwise, the place you're in is the time to put in the work to see if this is a "solvable" problem.

What's that look like?  I have multiple BPDs in my life- an ex wife and a daughter.  We were married for 23 years and I had all the moments everyone here describes.  But at the same time, I also realized why those patterns repeated and it had nothing to do with who was right or wrong, or even love.  It was all about disordered thinking when my BPD had unstable emotions.

Stay with me for a moment.  Have you ever whacked your finger with a hammer?  Or slammed your hand in a car door?  In that exact moment, how did you react?  Did you logically say, "This hurts like mad, but it will be okay in a few minutes...."  Or did you say a curse word, kick something, and lash out in pain?

Mentally, that's what your spouse is going through whenever she's disordered.  Her feelings bring her to that place of explosive rage or endless despair.  Just like when you whacked your thumb and wanted someone to understand your erratic behavior in the moment, your spouse's disordered thinking in the moment expects you to realize she's in crisis and treat it like a life or death scenario.

That's not what she says, mind you...that's what she feels.  Please catch this because I've said it a few times.  Disordered thinking comes from out of control emotions.  You fix one and the other fixes itself.

The conflict part comes from her being in crisis, doing her best to hide it from the world, and you thinking that this is just an ordinary conversation where things are normal.  So she asks you where the ice cream in the freezer went, you say the kids ate it yesterday, and she has a full blown mentdown because she's been wanting that all day and it proves that you've never loved her and that you lied to her about something in 2003 which proves everything she's ever thought!

Disordered thinking comes from unstable emotions.

What you should do (what we all try to do) is ignore the words and focus on the emotions.  Is she sad, depressed, furious?  What would a regular human do when they see someone anrgy?  They'd calm them down.  If they're sad, cheer them up.  It's learning to do this in the moment that makes all the difference in the world and changes the fundamentals of these relationships.

Now, it's one of the hardest things I've ever tried to do and nothing about this is intuitive...but it's the blueprint.  Soothe the emotions, the disordered thinking goes away.

Others will say your spouse is nuts, she needs meds and therapy, she needs to do better.  Sure, all that is true.  But you can't control any of that.  It's up to her.  So you focus on what you can control and that's what I just walked you through.  I hope that helps!

Hello, bluebird314.  Sending empathy and support.  What you wrote prompted me to recommend a book that is helping me a lot: Margalis Fjelstad, Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.  (Stop caretaking doesn't mean leave, although it can.  That's up to each person.  In addition to the great insight it gives into caretaking (vs. caring), it also provides some things to think about in staying/leaving decisions.

These have all been such beautiful replies and I'm incredibly grateful.

In-between my post and now, things devolved into a very poor state. Partially due to my inability to set effective boundaries (and my heart wanting to constantly de-escalate and repair) a compounding text with my wife devolved as my validations were met with hostility (my CBT therapist and myself have worked hard on helping me understand validation... acknowledging that throbbing thumb is real even tho the accusations attached to it are factually questionable). I set a boundary (first time!) that I would not communicate anymore unless she communicated with respect towards me. This spiraled quickly. Then I got a call and was told to leave the home. I told her I would not engage with this conversation.

She then texted me saying if i didn't leave the home immediately she would be physically violent with me when she got home. I left, not responding to her texts. They kept flooding in. Then I called her and said "I will not text you, but I will speak with you."

That was a misstep. I removed my own boundary. She hurled insults at me and I took the bait. I said things I've been wanting to say. "God forbid someone doesn't actually want to leave you," "you are the biggest victim I know" and "you are emotionally and physically abusive." On the other line, she was screaming and hyperventilating from her car.

It felt good. Then it didn't. Same way that when she hits me, I don't feel the desire to hit her back because I know how much pain it would cause and the idea of her in pain is tragic.

Love is a co-dependency. For sure. And I'm absolutely at a loss with where to go. We have two kids, teenagers, one of whom left the home last year after a fight with her while I was travelling. Moved states to his dad's. It tore her apart. In that time, she burnt the world around her down until it was just myself and one of her sisters left. Slowly, we worked to get our son home. And then we did, and started to rebuild.

We started this year with our third couples therapist and were about to move to a DBT-based couples therapist as ours goes on maternity leave.

I look at every action and reflect. I also am beginning to refuse to accept victim's shame. "You got hit because you wouldn't get out of my face" when I'm five feet away, a foot shorter and have my hands up in a "hey, I don't want to fight" position. "You got yourself hit and you deserved it."

I'm deeply reflective and take all criticism to heart. It's a bad thing, often - I'm not good at discerning what is and isn't true, and so often confuse factual truth with validity/invalidity.

Woof.

Didn't intend to spill out. Trying to focus on work. I've packed my bags and am leaving my home for two weeks. We just moved in. I thought maybe the stability would help us.

But I hadn't moved my books yet, and that became a one-sided argument about how easily I could just leave and abandon her. Trying to dissuade that feeling... we literally just bought a home? What do you mean? Funny to think how a tiny change in words or actions leads to a 10 day mental storm.

None of it ever seems to make sense. That's the hardest part.

Sorry... first time really opening up in solitude while in a group on this.

Lots of reading and reflecting to do. My reminder:

I am not the things she says I am.
I am not the person she accuses me of being.
I am worthy of being loved and respected, and treated with care and empathy.

Thank you! I'll add this to my reading task-list.

Emotional and physical abuse is very confusing for men. Usually for men, the emotional abuse is what hurts the most and does the most long term damage. Men also are frequently discriminated against when they reach out for help from an abusive relationship because the prevailing prejudice tends to be that men are stronger physically and mentally than women, so the abuse a woman inflicts on a man really doesn't matter. Indeed it does.

In around 50 percent of heterosexual relationships the physical abuse is mutual.

As a man, it is important that you understand how the laws in many jurisdictions mandate that the man be arrested if the police are called for a domestic violence complaint unless the woman has a lethal weapon like a gun or a knife. The man is considered to be a lethal weapon by himself because of his superior physical strength.

Do not overestimate your ability to refrain from hitting back. There are countless men who have domestic violence convictions because after many years of emotional and/or physical abuse, one day it becomes too much and the man hits the woman on one occasion.

First, don't apologize for opening up.  This is a place to talk, vent, question, rant...whatever is needed.  That's what peer support is all about, we're here to support you through this regardless of the outcome.

Second, a trial separation could be a good thing.  It doesn't feel very good right now, but she will quickly realize that she escalated too far.  Her pride will say its your fault, but her heart will know the truth.  That's how BPDs grow, by learning from their mistakes and actually facing the consequences.

Give it time, get some rest, and find a way to re-focus. 

No, you're not the things she says, and you do deserve respect.  But she has a serious mental illness and it's not that simple.  Is it abuse?  YES!  Should you have to deal with it?  NO!  You want to save your marriage though and for real change to happen, both of you must change as well. 

This is not about blame, it's about growth.  You must learn to diffuse her emotions so she can stablilize.  She needs to learn to respect your boundaries and control her emotions.  But hopefully you see, the task is the same for both of you...help her calm down and so she learns to help herself.

Welcome, and glad you found this board.

Your comment above reminded me of one thing I've grown to understand, and I also struggled with a lot when I was married to a pwBPD (though officially she is undiagnosed TBF).  That thing is that you shouldn't be comparing yourself to others, or to some ideal standard when you decide what it is you want, or don't want, or won't tolerate.  That's up to you to decide, and what you decide is fine; no need to look outside of you to justify it.  

For example: If you don't like how she treats you, tell her to stop.  If she won't stop, if she blames you for her own behavior, if she deflects, changes the subject to avoid the conversation, if she insults you, attacks, you, etc., well then you're faced with a decision: do you continue to allow someone to treat you this way, or do you leave them?  It's that simple.  No need to compare your situation to other couples.  Do you fight more or less than other couples?  Doesn't matter!  It's too much for you.  Are all women like that sometimes?  Who cares!  She's not treating you how you expect to be treated: with the same respect you show her.  

If you struggle to know what you want, what you deserve, and what you should tolerate, then you need counseling maybe, or at least you need to do some serious soul-searching and reading and learning.

I spent years agonizing over my situation; did we fight more than other couples?  How much was too much?  Were divorce rates lower in the past because people were more tolerant?  Could I do better?  Is this just what being a married man is like?  There are countless shows, sitcoms, jokes, etc. about stuff like this... maybe being miserable is just how it is?

In the end it was all nonsense.  The bottom line was that she was not capable of treating me how I deserved to be treated.  Sure, I suspected she had a personality disorder and was incapable of treating other people (not just me) how they deserved to be treated, but personality disorder or not, it didn't matter.  Had I understood boundaries better, and how I was complicit in setting the tone of how others could treat me, I would not have lasted very long in that relationship.  The first time she raised her voice at me, I would've stood my ground, and if I didn't get an unequivocal apology, I would have known to end the relationship.  I wouldn't have said to myself "Gee, she screamed at me to get out of doing [thing I politely asked her to do], and I didn't like it, and when I said so, she screamed more and tried to blame me for her anger, but it would be silly to end a relationship over this one thing, so I'll just have to shut up and take it." 

By shutting up and taking it, I set the stage for her to do it again.  And over and over again.  I told myself "Well, you're in a serious relationship now, there's give and take" but then I'd see friends in normal healthy relationships with non-disordered people and be shocked that they were allowed to spend time with others outside of the relationship, and didn't have to jump when their partner said jump, and had hobbies and interests they pursued without a guilt trip from their partner, etc. etc. 

One more nugget- boundaries are made by you, for you, and they do not require anyone else's participation.

If I tell you, "I will take you to the Lakers game tonight, court side seats, if you cook burgers before we go."

That doesn't sound like a boundary, does it?  But it absolutely is.  A boundary is simply "If you do xxx...I'll do xxx."

"If you hit me, I'll call the police."
"If you scream at me, I'm walking away."

Now, you throw out one of those things when your wife is heated...guess what happens?  She screams and hits you.  Why?  Because you gave an ultimatium that she was too dysregulated and emotional to accept.

Look at my "boundary" again.  You spend 20 minutes working, I'll buy $10k tickets for us.  Pretty good deal, right?

My boundary is not a threat, it's not an ultimatum.  In fact, it's reward based if you behave in a way that I feel is appropriate.

The second part of the boundary is that it has to have clear "expectations" and "counters".  If you don't cook burgers, we're not going to the game.  If you do, we're going.  That means that you are ultimately deciding the outcome, not me, and I'm just being predictible with what I said that I'd do.

The third part is consistency.  Obviously I won't take you to a Lakers game every time you cook for me, so that's a bad example for this.  But you have to say it often and stand by it.  She makes the decisions, you act on them exactly as you said that you're going to.  "If you scream at me, I'm walking away."  Expectation, counter.

We don't need to make it threatening though or an ultimatum.  I can say, "Bluebird, I care about you as a friend and I don't want to argue.  I'm going to step away for a bit so we can both calm down."

Now, I'm probably already pretty calm and the thing I need a break from is you.  But I don't have to say it that way because we both know what will happen if I do.  It would be WWIII.

Again, take this time to reflect and figure out what's best for you.  Boundaries work if you can present them in a compassionate way, and you can make big gains with a different style of communication when she's dysregulated (and fueled by emotions).

I think these relationships are very individual and the time line for personal growth is different for each one, that there isn't a "too late". You are here after 6 years and that is where you are at.

My own opinion is that your T was wise to shift to you examining your reasons for staying. While learning about BPD and DBT is good information for you, that will depend entirely on the person with BPD's motivation to do this, if they will. I think you will gain more by focusing on your own reasons and emotional growth.

I also don't consider staying or leaving as being a success or failure. Each decision is a very individual one and each person makes the best decision for their own circumstances. The person who stays isn't superior to the person who leaves or is better at enduring or making it work. Both staying and leaving are complicated and diffucult decisions in their own ways.

That someone stays isn't always due to them being able to make the relationship better or "normal". I do think the tools on this board and personal therapy help take down the drama in the relationship. We can't change another person but when we change our behavior in the dynamic, there is the possiblity of changing that, and in some situations, it's enough to make the situation better. It does not "cure" the pwBPD. Validating is one of these tools, and it can help, but how much can vary.

In assessing my experience with my BPD mother and father, her behavior is easier to understand. She was the one who had BPD. My father, who in ways was the more emotionally stable one, was more complicated to figure out. I had thought of my mother as being the problem, but he too was a part of the dynamic between them. It was a function of them both.

He stayed, but I think the best explanation for why the marriage endured was again- he had his reasons, and those we can't really know from the outside. It didn't change that my mother had BPD. She was not able to have the insight to work with therapy on that. Some others are motivated to do that, and make progress with that and their relationships. Each pwBPD is an individual too. 

These relationships are confusing because- they aren't all good and they aren't all bad. They aren't what we think of as "normal". I could say the same for my experiences with my parents growing up.

We all started somewhere with learning to navigate these situation, and boundaries, made errors, learned from them. Yes-keep in mind- even if you don't do this perfectly, none of us do or did and your saying is still true-
You are not the things she says you are. You are not the person she accuses you of being. You am worthy of being loved and respected, and treated with care and empathy.

Her reaction to to a new boundary is predictable.  It's an extinction burst.  People with BPD traits (pwBPD) are highly resistant to change, even positive changes.  Will she adjust?  No one can know, it depends on her.


That you're possibly moving on to a third is an indicator.  The couples counseling concept is to repair the relationship.  As I understand it, it is not to decide whether to continue the relationship.


There's another reason above and beyond your good behavior.  If you lose your cool, you expose yourself to serious legal consequences.  Conversely, when she hits you, that also is considered Domestic Violence (DV).  DV is a very serious matter, not to be ignored or accepted.

Even before I concluded there was no hope for my marriage, I started to (quietly) record my spouse's rants and rages.  (This was before smart phones, so I used digital voice recorders.)  I felt I needed proof I wasn't the one aggressively causing conflict.  She of course played the victim but what an aggressive "victim" she was.  And yes, eventually the police and courts got involved.

That you've just bought a home ties you even deeper into the marriage.  If the marriage does end then you'd likely have to sell the home and split the equity, if any.


If the children have other fathers then, unless you've adopted them, domestic relations (family) court would not view you as the legal parent.  Of course, consultation beforehand with a local family law attorney is vital to know where you stand in a variety of aspects, including parenting status, etc.

I wonder why the son couldn't choose to live with his father. I recall as a teen that I would have wanted to do that too, if it had been an option for me. It's impossible to completely shield anyone in the family from the BPD behavior. It impacted my BPD mother's relationship with me as a teen too.

First and foremost, thank you all. I'm doing prep work for my NEABPD course and sleeping in my office tonight. I haven't cried in a long while. Not because I'm afraid to cry, but because I've learned that keeping my emotions small keeps me unnoticed. Or so I thought.

NotWendy - this comment hit home. If I'm honest, me *today* would not have dated my wife. She had two children with two different men (not a problem). The oldest's father was incarcerated and the youngest's father and she went through a very nasty divorce (he suffers from a schizophrenic bipolar combination). Little (thirty year old) me said... "I can fix this!" I was ignorant. But I fell in love with her and the kids (my reasons for staying, both of them). I believed (and believe) that she wasn't who I was seeing, but someone stuck behind trauma layers and history of abuse. And that the kids needed real love and leadership from a stable male figure. In other words... the white knight rescuer who had no clue how shortsighted he was.

Our oldest left for his dad's. His dad lives in squalor, works odd jobs and moves in and out of prison. I'm proud of him: he quickly realized this wasn't the life he wanted. He and my wife mended (she's been very good with him since) and they've done wonders. He's an amazing guy who has taken more on his mantle then he ever should have had to. But... that's life.

I remember asking him when I got home from my travelling gig (before he left): Is this what you want? I had to call, because he was staying at a friend's. And he said "I don't know another way."

And here I am, too, not knowing another way.

The house? Solvable. Kids? Sadly, not mine. Solvable. Pets? Dividable. Money? Split the debt.

The fire on the pyre is that tomorrow is her birthday. I'm sure you all can spell wonders about resentments, but I'm served every failure on a platter on a daily basis (near daily for five years, at least).

But when it's good, it's good.

I'm really grateful for you all. I'll move out of this phase and hope to be a contributing and helpful member of this community.

I'll add a small nugget: I dated a woman in 2014 for a year. Undiagnosed, but I'm confident of a B-complex disorder. Things like "get out of this car so I can drive it into a wall."

Had I known my wife had BPD, I would not have dated or pursued this relationship. We began dating in 2018, married in 2020 (amidst a spat between my mom and her, of course) and she was diagnosed in 2022.

Damn, how I'd do it all different. But I still love her. All of her. Even the _____ty parts. I just wish they were kinder.

It doesn't sound like the son's father's place was a good situation for the son, so that wasn't an option for him.

I think most posters would say they had no idea of the complexity of being with a pwBPD at the beginning, even if the diagnosis was known.

Every poster is an important part of this thread. It's OK to need advice. We all do at times. This is also a lay board- and we share our own experiences and what we learned on the way. Being on this board has helped me to understand the dynamics between my parents better.

The meanness- the verbal insults and accusations, these are difficult. It's hard to not react or feel them personally. The reality is that, when dissociated, they are less about you than the pwBPD's projections of their uncomfortable feelings in the moment. That doesn't mean you have to tolerate verbal abuse, but it helps to be able to hold on to your own reality- that what she says in the moment, doesn't define you.

Well put.

Hello.  I don't know how you felt when you wrote these words, but if you were feeling bad about letting go of your boundary or saying something non-dbtish, I just want to say, "You're human!"  And it doesn't really make a difference past the very short-term anyway.

I just did the same -- after lots of blaming, lambasting, etc., I let loose with some (truthful) non-dbt frustration and messed up my own boundary of not responding to that stuff.  Then I felt like I should apologize -- even though it happened in the middle of me getting verbally whipped.  Thank goodness, a friend talked me out of it. :)

This is moment for some blunt talk.  My then-spouse and I had been married for over a decade.  Life was gradually but increasingly getting worse.  Clueless me, I got the idea to have a child with her, hoping* she would reverse course and be happy watching our child discover the joys of life.  Instead, she became even more dysfunctional and discord became more extreme.  (Looking back, I have concluded one factor was that in her eyes I morphed from a husband to a father.  She came from a home with a mother who clung to her abusive stepfather.)

* Promises, wishes and hopes typically turn out to be disappointing "hopium".

As for your situation, your spouse has a child from each of at least two failed relationships.  Ponder the consequences of her getting yet another child - from your failing relationship.

Learn from our experiences here.  Having children with an unstable and disordered spouse makes everything vastly more complicated and distressing.  Even a divorce would be more complicated with the added issues of custody and parenting.

Probably best to avoid having a child - being in charge of birth control decisions - until you have decided which path your future takes.

Very poignant talk, even if blunt. These are all incredibly important points. Thank you to everyone here for all of your thoughts and input. Navigating the first 24 hours of our separation has gone how you'd imagine it would... I know that even *with* every tool in the chest, I'm only one part of this equation.

At the later part of my father's life- he was ill and I was upset about that and not in an emotional place to handle BPD mother, I let loose on her and told her exactly what I thought.

It felt good to speak my mind in the moment but also later, regret and feeling badly about myself for that. The position of "mother" is held in high esteem- we are not supposed to speak to our parents like that. I also didn't want to hurt her. I was upset about all that was going on.

Then came the retaliation. I think a "normal" mother could have taken the perspective that if a person is about to lose their father, they are not in a stable emotional place, and would want to  keep the relationship. In another situation, I think both would have been invested in apologizing and reconciliation.

I think it will help to read about the Karpman triangle dynamics. https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle. I think pwBPD maintain "Victim" position on the triangle. Others take on the other roles- Rescuer, Persecutor, but not Victim. The pwBPD is the only "victim".

That is why, if someone else is feeling hurt, or sad- the pwBPD can not perceive this. Understandable that this situation was difficult for BPD mother but she could not also see that it was difficult for the adult children too. So, to her, I could only be in Persecutor position and she would retaliate in self defense.

(Of note- physical abuse was not present in any of the interactions. BPD mother didn't resort to that, and neither did anyone else even consider it.)

I realized that expressing feelings of hurt or anger to her did no good and made the situation worse. It wasn't worth doing. Even though there were times I did get angry, and say angry things in the moment (we are all human) I didn't get angry at her like that again. I could catch myself, stop, and tone it down sooner.  I compared this to "peeing in the wind". Due to projection of difficult feelings- it all comes back at you.

My boundaries became quiet ones. The acronym, from 12 steps is "HALT"- hungry, angry, lonely, tired, and you can add other emotions to them. If I was feeling any of them, it was a sign for me to take a time out, get a grip on myself, and wait until I felt calm enough to interact. If this meant politely, getting off the phone, stepping out of the room, saying "I need a moment" or "I need to think about that" or just going quiet and stop talking. It takes two to have these interactions, one can decide to not keep talking.

Thank you for sharing that story Notwendy; that's intense and I can relate to that feeling of sadness that accompanies speaking  your mind.

The triangle is very helpful, I've not seen that before. Thank you for sharing that resource.

I've pissed in the wind three times in this relationship. I can count them on my hand. I regret each one, and  then it happens again when I'm emotionally cornered. Hindsight... woof.

All of us here know how precarious those changes are, from "in the marriage" to "separated".  This is a time where risks are heightened, DV is more likely and especially false allegations and petitions for protection.  The disordered spouse will be prone to claim victimhood, whether true or not.  So be especially careful now that you take special care not to appear aggressive in any way (or get "framed for mischief").

I've often framed my comments as "imagine you have a judge watching over your shoulder".

I can't count the number of allegations made against me during our separation and the early years of our divorce.  Of course, child custody was at stake so therefore her allegations, though unsubstantiated, were quite vicious and nasty.  Through it all I somehow remained calm and didn't retaliate in kind.

We are all humans and if someone is being verbally and emotionally abusive-  eventually, we feel pushed over the edge. When we react, we do it to somehow get the other person to stop, or see the impact this has on us and feel motivated to stop, or sometimes if we've resisted reacting, we just can't in the moment.

I had been living away from home for quite some time, and while I did continue to see my parents, during this time, I spent more time staying with them and so experienced more of BPD mother's behavior than before. Seeing this dynamic from an adult perspective, I learned that it didn't do any good and in fact, would mostly be hurtful to me to do it.

For BPD mother, it did feel hurtful in the moment, but her response to feeling that way was to dissociate and project it outward. So she didn't learn from her behavior, and it didn't change anything. I think our reasons to not do this may come from not wanting to hurt the other person, but at this point, I realized that doing this would be hurtful to me too.

In fact, when BPD mother was being hurtful to someone else, sometimes if they reacted to that, she'd be bewildered and think they were hurting her instead. Sometimes she was deliberately hurtful on purpose but other times, she didn't connect her behavior to how someone else reacted. She was overwhelmed with her own feelings. Other people's feelings were not in her perception.

I think another reason we express anger and hurt to someone is because we are invested in the relationship. We want them to see that what they are doing isn't helpful to the relationship. We want to find some way to reconcile. Seeing that this also didn't help achieve that, I didn't see any reason to do it.

It's not wrong to feel anger or hurt. They are legitimate feelings. However, we can choose how to respond to that, and for me, it was keeping some boundaries. They may not have been the same as some in a romantic relationship but I think the general idea- if we feel that way- we need to be able to calm down and then decide how to respond fits all relationships.

How firm are you in this being a separation? Maybe I'm wrong but I get the sense from your posts that this is a reactive situation, coming from a recent escalation, rather than a situation that you have come to a decision to do this. It seems that prior to this, you were working in therapy, bought a house, not planning a separation. Then an escalation happened.

Either way- firm in the decision, or not so sure and reacting, I think it helps to know where you are at in all of this. Your wife's feelings can change. In one moment she can be yelling at you to leave and then when you do, be yelling at you for leaving.

There's a push-pull to these kinds of relationships. An escalation, then there's the reconciliation. Looking at your wife's feelings as the decision maker- you will be going back and forth with this.

If you aren't at the point that you choose to leave the marriage, then this may be a temporary situation. It's not a bad thing to have some time to yourself to think about things. Your wife may be escalating now, and out of control. Your task is to manage your feelings, try to stay calm in the storm, for now.

Would it surprise you if I said it's complicated, and I'm Jell-O? Hah.

This first happened in 2022-ish, prior to her diagnosis. Years might be off. She had a large emotional movement, bigger than I'd seen before, brought on my an abrupt stop on taking anti-depressives she had been diagnosed. They weren't working but cold turkey didn't help. I was told to leave, and so I went to a hotel and stayed for a week.

It happened a little bit around a year ago, and also before then. But this year has been the worst. Coinciding with some agreeably inconsiderate actions on my side (legitimate moments that didn't make her feel like she mattered) it just blew up. I spent a week at a friend's in March before returning home. A few nights at my office. And then again in June for a day or two. And now, now.

Along the way, I'm wanting us to stay in therapy (this coming week would have been our move to a DBT-based couples therapist) and waiting for my DBT coursework to begin. She's actively in DBT since January in addition to doing an emergency 12 week course last year as FMLA. It's... been a rough year.

I think we need to be apart right now. She is not in her right mind. And the anger comes both ways, making it damned either way. But I'm not seeking Divorce. I've told her if she wants it, "get an attorney." I have one, but (no joke) I've also filled out divorce paperwork for us (3) times in this marriage. Each time, prior to going to the notary, she backs off.

The delusion I have today is that "if I do DBT, I can fix this." I hear everyone... I cannot change her. But I keep thinking... maybe another 4-5 months of DBT and we'll get there?

This round has been hard. The last 10 or so days (I was at home during them) happened after an argument about why I hadn't moved my last books into our new home (we had a 30 day overlap). I tried to explain that I wanted a few at my office, a few didn't matter and then I'd bring the rest over and was met with "you make excuses." When I tried to establish a boundary and ask we not talk about this until our couples session, I was met with an increasingly loud attack against me, my character, my loyalty, and my ability to "leave whenever I want to." A week after moving in to our home, a few weeks after signing our loan... lol. Sigh.

In these moments it is and isn't her. So I waffle. If she takes it to an attorney and wants to get ugly, I'm not worried. But it's not what I want. And in the middle of a heated text beratement (because I won't block her yet and she won't talk on the phone) she'll often say "why couldn't you be the soft pillow I need, or why haven't you stopped  to say 'Baby, baby, I love you' even once during the last ten minutes?"

Makes me feel delusional.

Don't call me. Why didn't you call?
I hate you. I love you.
Leave. Don't leave.

She's not right in her mind. The pebble at the top of the cliff became a landslide on the town (me) below. Problem is, the way I see it... I probably had something to do with that pebble during a hike. So I'm like... okay, let's find new places to put our pebbles!

My support group condones me leaving. And understands that I'm wrestling with it.

But I look at how close we got to everything we've been working for and it just feels  like... damn, this is just an attempt to self-sabotage.

So I'm firm in not going home right now. Not for two weeks. I'm firm  on not wanting a divorce but not being afraid of what's next. I'm just really, really exhausted.

I need this time. Just to rebuild and refill my cup.

Sadly, your experience is one we're familiar with.  Without meaningful therapy and diligent application of the therapy in her perceptions, behavior and her overall life... well, as you've seen, everything gets progressively worse over time.

Can you deal with the situation as it is, not as you wish or hope it to be?  It's a sad reality that that when the conflict and discord has reached levels such as this, it is very difficult for the disordered partner to decide to truly want to work toward mental health recovery.  Not impossible, but quite a difficult task.  The typical Denial, Obstruction, Blaming and Blame Shifting is that strong.

DBT therapy is primarily for your spouse's mental health benefit, but of course the lessons and concepts taught are beneficial for us all.  If you do your work but she merely gives it token effort, then it's not enough to repair the relationship.

Your wife has had at least three serious relationships in her life.  There's you, there's dad #1, and dad #2.  And I'm guessing there's others you've heard about.

Dad #1 didn't work out.  Dad #2 didn't work out.  None of the others I don't know about did either.  And maybe that's not fair, we all have failed dating relationships in our past.  But there's an important question here.

How does she describe Dad #1 or Dad #2?  Were they good guys who she met when they were just in different places in her life?  Or were they abusive jerks who were bent on hurting her, taking advantage of her?

I'm not asking your opinion here or what you know about these guys.  I'm asking for HER OPINION.

Why?  Because I want you to see the crystal clear pattern.

If your wife is like our BPD current and former loved ones, then every person they've ever loved has been mean, abusive, and out to ruin them.  They did terrible things, they're complete monsters!  Yet when your wife sees them in person, they smile and laugh and seem to get along just fine.  Huh. 

Those pebbles rolling down the cliff that are turning into boulders, you absolutely carry some blame in all of that.  We did as well in our relationships.  But you have to see this, truly understand it...why were those same issues in every single one of your wife's past relationships, going all the way back to her parents and siblings?

It's the way she processes things that turns pebbles into unstopable forces.  She does that within her mind, and it's why she struggles to forgive, to apologize, to let go of wounds.

Do you have a role to play in all this?  Sure.  But this is not your fault; it never was.  Again, look at her past, her entire life...those pebbles and boulders where there the entire time.  Different people, same story.  That proves it's not a "you thing" at all.

No, this doesn't surprise me and it's wny I asked "how firm" are you in leaving because it didn't seem from your posts like you were.

I saw my parents go through this several times. I think it goes along with the push-pull behavior of BPD. PwBPD have difficulty managing their own uncomfortable feelings, and they project/dissociate. But once these feelings are "out"- they feel better. They revert to their "nice" selves- the nice self we see them as "really" under all that BPD.

However, BPD mother could not take accountability for her behavior. In her mind she was "good now" and the expectation was that whatever happened would be forgotten. You didn't dare bring it up, she'd just get angry if you did. I compare this to a small child who eats too many sweets, gets a stomach ache, and throws up. The child then feels better, runs off to play.

But it did happen. She may have felt better after these episodes, but we didn't. The verbal criticism- the "I hate you don't leave"- it is what it is. If you can see it as emotional "throw up", not as personal to you, it helps a little.

BPD mother's behavior was explainable. It had a name. Dad was more complicated, being the more emotionally stable and so I perceived him as the "normal" one. But he could waver along with these behaviors. BPD mother would escalate, act out to the point where it was impossible to not see it. He would seem to be aware of it, or she'd make a divorce threat. For the moment, it would appear that divorce might be on the table.

Then it wasn't. She was in her loving good mood again, Dad going along with it. Sometimes his actions were also influenced by BPD mother's moods. To us, he was the "good parent"- and yet, if BPD mother decided something, or was angry at someone, (deserved or not) he'd go along with her, sometimes doing what appeared inconsistent to me.

Or, as you put it- "delusional"? Sometimes it seemed he was spellbound by her. I could see why. She could be beautiful, charming at times, and yet, there was the other side to her.

To me, this appeared to be a difficult relationship. But it was his decision to decide on, and nothing anyone could say or do could change that. You will decide in your own time. This is a familiar situation to many people here- and also a reason for not telling people which way to go- it's a personal decision.

That one got me.

Pook/Wendy; as before, very meaningful input. I'm incredibly appreciative. I took myself to my favorite park last night and let some feelings out. I'm quite good at bottling those up. I asked myself a lot of those questions... and if I'm honest, this pattern has been present throughout the duration of the relationship. Somewhere along the timeline I stopped trying to fix it and started trying to fix myself, and she did in her own path, but it was all spaghetti.

The pattern is always how horrible everyone else was. We're just over 24 hours no contact right as of writing this, and the last series of texts (I didn't respond!) were that I'm worst than all of them.

I think what's shaking my brain up right now is that for the last four years I didn't have any of *this.* I just processed in isolation. Woof.

I'm excited for my NEABPD coursework to begin. Learning from ya'll and everyone else is really helpful.

Truly- we can not "fix" another person. Working on ourselves is the better path- to whatever decision that leads to.

The course sounds very informative and useful. Learning about BPD can help us to understand the other person but turning the focus inward is where we can be effective.

One exercise a T taught me is when being accused of something, first consider if it is true or not. If not- then substitute something absurd like "pink elephant" for the accusation. You wouldn't react if someone called you that as you are certain you aren't one. Also, your wife calling you that doesn't make it true.

It's good you are able to have the chance to look at your own feelings.

In this moment, you are the worst because that's what she's FEELING.  I keep going back to that word because it's where all the chaos stems from.  She's had those same feelings with anyone she's ever become close to, and eventually they said or did something that changed her feelings.

I only brought that up to help you see the bigger picture.  This isn't a fight you versus her.  This is a fight against mental illness and you're both fighting it at the same time.  She just happens to be choosing the wrong side to fight for.

I wish you luck and patience brother.  This is still a winnable fight if you want it to be.  But first, you need a little R&R to clear your mind and actually be able to think.  Take some time and we'll talk about if the marriage is worth saving another day.

Checking in.

Last weekend was incredibly restful. No contact led way to attempts at contact this week and predictable patterns of push/pull and gushes of emotional dysregulation. I've been angry. More angry than before. I got angry with Fruzetti's book High Conflict Couples when it attempted to tell me how to validate my partner; worked myself to the realization that I struggle with validating her feelings  while keeping my own self-respect knowing how false the points are. I've been trying to wrap my mind around the Transactional Model and have been taking steps back during the occasional text spirals to assess what I'm seeing.

I do think that I contributed to her instability by way of not understanding validation... but I'm one half a situation. Resentment after resentment and insult after insult is hurled at me and I take deep breaths and respond with validating replies until she stops.

I can feel a crossroad. I don't know if I can be with this person, knowing how there will never be a recovery within this experience that gives way for my own sadness, my own chronic invalidations, and my valid and personal experience of our marriage. I just... don't see it happening. The only way forward seems to be a world where I go 100% forward as the problem and... enter the same cycle?

Anger/hopelessness. Still sleeping at my office. Mad that the home I just bought is without me. I'm without my dogs and cats and kids and things... so that she can have space? I'm giving her  that space. And I'm seeing the cycle in the text messages. The same cycle.

I'm ________ing exhausted. Separation will not end, yet.

Remember the hammer analogy I gave you?  When you hit your finger with the hammer, all you can think about is pain.

As you learn to validate and calm situations, your partner will not be in that "I hit my finger with the hammer" mentality all the time.  One a scale of 1 to 10, maybe she ramps up to a 9 in intensity now.  But as you learn to validate, it builds trust and she learns to regulate her emotions much better.

For instance, when my ex walked away, she'd get to a 10 in intensity every time we talked.  Anything I said that she didn't agree with, it was explosive fury almost instantly.  But over time, as I learned to communicate a different way, our conversations haven't passed a 2 in intensity in years.  Same person, same topics...but the trust was rebuilt and I learned to validate.

Of course, I said "my ex" because we divorced.  We could have made it work though if she was willing, because we were past the worst of it and we both genuinely healed.  Our conversations today and friendly and productive.  We laugh, we make fun of our kids.  It's a good relationship and she's still 100% mentally ill and untreated.

I shared that to say that you have options here.  Walking away is certainly an option and nobody would blame you.  It's real work keeping these types of relationships healthy and it's rarely fair for the non-BPD.  But it can be turned around and it can be a healthy relationship if you choose that path.

It's good that you got angry.  It's good that you're having second thoughts.  That means you're actually processing this and seeing both sides of the coin.  Nobody here should tell you to stay or go, that's all on you.  But I'm glad that you're starting to heal and see things a little more objectively.

This analogy keeps landing really well. The focus in this week's NEABPD course is a deep dive on Validation, so I'm hoping to gain from that and ask some great, dumb questions.

I'm moving into the tools part of the High Conflict book this afternoon.

I'm also making myself go out and see my friends. They're all wanting to help. It's been 6+ years of this, so I get weary bringing the same problems and cycles to them each time. As if I'm exhausting them by it, even tho they're asking about it.

Back into the caves of self exploration and revelation we go!

I recall my divorce lawyer telling me, "Courts love counseling."  Counseling is a very good thing, no doubt about it.  However, successful therapy does not guarantee that the marriage is repaired and prospers.  It might, or it might not.

Another bell rings.

We're speaking tomorrow night by phone.

Today she sent me an audio note with 12 un-forgivable actions. I happened to be walking into therapy and utilized the time to listen to it alongside my therapist. I dug deep and  could quickly recognize my failure to properly validate my pwBPD's feelings over time. But laying all 12 out made me quickly realize how bad black-and-white thinking becomes... during our first massive fight (and the first time I was kicked out of my house for a week) I bought a motorcycle at a bar at 2am. I let her know during a repair attempt. I tried to laugh it off, like "hey, I did something crazy, too!" Bad move. Any partner would be annoyed. But five years later it's still unforgivable. Not quitting her meds and kicking me out of the house because she "didn't have the combo to our safe with ours kids documents in it." (Arrested Development Voice) she did.

Three were issues with my mom; instances where she picked fights and my attempts to resolve didn't work... I tried to lead horses to water instead of simply siding with my partner. Problem is, I didn't fully agree with her side. She was quick to anger, irrational and I believe overly unforgiving in the moment. These un-forgivable failures seem less about me than a conjecture of a reality that I don't live in.

More failures; inconsideration, one-sided presentations of experiences (where I do recognize some culpability, but I cannot for the life of me figure out where the entire other half of the experience seems to have gone...)

I'm increasingly feeling done. I've stayed longer than anyone else in her life. She's excommunicated her sister three times in 8 years. Going back seems like working desperately to convince her... to take me back? And completely ignore all the other issues? It all feels untrue to who I am and what feels real.

Today I realized that this marriage failing isn't a failure. It's just a reality. I'm not cut out for this. Or, she's not in a position of healing enough to become self-reflective and address my own invalidation through our experiences.

When she texts, my mouth goes dry. My nerves tingle. I think "oh god, what next." The more time I spend away from her... the more time I'm finding myself happy again. And realizing how unhappy I've been.

That's painful. I think I love her. But I really, really don't know what to expect tomorrow. She's "100% done" on her end. Yet she sends me this list... I know a game when I see one. I'm told every time I leave the home (after being told to leave) that "I never fight back for her." Bait I won't take. If she can't see it, there's no point finishing the painting.

When I numb the parts of me that need numbing to exist with her, it turns out I numb everything. And I think I've been numb for 8 years.

Forgiveness is the basis of any relationship.  If you love someone, you forgive them.  It might not be easy, it might not sting for awhile, but love should conquer all.

Now, I'm not talking about abuse.  If someone is abusive, you don't forgive...you run.  If someone is a serial cheater or a drunk or an addict, you can't forgive that either because it's happening all the time.  So don't take this the wrong way- I'm talking about normal everyday mistakes here.

BPDs are notorious for black and white thinking, seeing things in absolutes.  That's the aspect of this that becomes so incredibly hard.  If they can't forgive, how can they love someone?  Honestly, they can't.  Love and hate don't go together.

I've said this in almost every post to you- THIS CAN WORK.  I've seen it, I've lived it.  To change her absolute thinking and her list of "unforgivable sins", you have to change your relationship and how you communicate.  That means forgiving her first, for everything she's said and done.  It's also admitting your mistakes and owning your part.  If you do that, there's so much less to fight about and it disarms them.

This CAN work, I'm positive of it.  That's not the question though.  The real question is whether or not the cost is too much to actually make it work.

I think you're doing all the right things.  Keep reading, keep working through therapy, keep trying to understand that she's hit her thumb with a mental hammer.  Also, try to validate her FEELINGS and EMOTIONS.  Don't argue, just accept your mistakes and move on.

You're doing everything you can to give this a real chance at working.  Give it a little more time and keep working the process.  Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't.  But you're going to be a better man on the other side of this regardless because you're setting yourself up for long-term success.

I'm reminded of something that occurred periodically over the years.  An ex I knew would get triggered and irate at her son and disown him, bringing him to tears.  She never did actually disown him legally, but it was so devastating to him.  The first time it happened, so far as I know, she was newly separated and he was a preschooler.  He was distressed because she had told him he wasn't obeying her and she was going to adopt a kid who would obey her.  What do you say to a child sobbing that his mother would exchange him for another, beyond comforting him?

That is a pattern seen with pwBPD.  In their own emotional extremes they can strike out at others, virtually defenseless others, then calm down and proceed as though it barely happened.

 "Today I realized that this marriage failing isn't a failure. It's just a reality. I'm not cut out for this. Or, she's not in a position of healing enough to become self-reflective and address my own invalidation through our experiences."

It can take years to realize that you are in a one sided relationship that nothing you do will ever make things right. To face this, takes great courage. All that you are learing through this process will allow you to have healthier relationships with yourself and others. Time to turn the page.

Another 12 or so days and here we are. Things are... just as volatile as before. I'm also oscillating between a deep desire to repair and an acceptance that the boundary I've placed for myself is a hard conditional parameter: I will not be the one to make the first effort to repair this. That's been my cycle. Three times before this, that's been my cycle. And I'm met with a month or two of tranquility in the honeymoon phase before we're topsy turvy again.

I've had time to observe a few things:
1. My nerves are so, so frayed. From years of this.
2. The more time I spend apart, the more my soul feels like it's flickering back to life... even tho it's very sad.
3. Push/Pull and Black/White ideology is on full display. I hate you, don't leave me: my god, it's really that!
4. The anger / lashing out... how did I put up with this so long? Today during a spiral (I engaged) I picked up the phone and called her. I've told her "I will not text, I will talk." It stops her cycle of texting. She tells me to block her; she wants me to block her. I won't. Just don't lash out. I'm told, "you have to remember I have borderline, I'm going to push you away before you have a chance to do that to me!" I just responded "don't you see where that places me?
5. I'm a narcissist. Her DBT therapist could show me all the ways I've destroyed her, absolutely. My therapy group is where I go to hide and lie about who I am, and trash her and her name and her existence.
6. I'm emotionless. I laugh and smile everywhere in my life save around her; I've become so small. So, she's right: she sees so little emotion from me because that's how I've tried to protect my spirit.

I found an apartment. I'm going to move in a day or two. My oldest son asked me last night, "How do you feel, having to get an apartment when you just bought this house?" I was honest with him. "Sad. Unhappy. My ego is hurt. But that's what therapy is for." He nodded. He's a good kid, turns 18 soon.

Last week I wrote up an agreement that would guide our separation towards divorce. It outlined my intentions for house, for bill splitting, and for elements of property split that have to be discussed. She was furious: "you side swiped me!" "I'm not signing this garbage!" "I'm getting a mediator!" Because mediators love handling contested divorces... The first mediator told her that what we're trying to do (divorce without selling the house right now, etc) doesn't happen.

She can't afford the house on her own. I can afford it on my own. I'm going to let them live there for the next 12 months, or until divorce forces this forward. It's my son's senior year, we just moved in... the last thing he needs is to uproot. My other son's freshman year. Ethically, I can't do that to them.

And then the cats. She hates the cats. She calls me a narcissist because I'll apologize for a hairball but not "for breaking her heart, repeatedly." Yet every apology I make is forgotten almost immediately. "Get rid of these cats!" She wanted the cats. Then she didn't. Because the cats don't cater to a human's desires.

So I found a place for myself and the cats. It's in the school district where our oldest goes. I'm near the house but far enough away. After our argument this morning I was told to sleep at the office again. I decided this would be the last time she has that power over me. I went home and packed up all my clothes. All of my things that I'd be taking with me. I packed them up and put them in my car, and now they're stored at my studio until I move in to my new place.

I need peace. I'm tired. I can't be the one to fix this; I need to hear: "I ________ed up, I blew this out of proportion, I did a lot of this wrong, I don't want a divorce."

But what I hear is a vague hint of "I did these things wrong to you" and I'm supposed to infer that she's secretly wanting me to tell her I won't leave.

Sorry, borderline. You don't get to be an excuse this time. The ship is leaving port. There are consequences to words and actions. I'm not black and white. I'm just trying to find that "wise mind" equilibrium.

Somewhere over the horizon I'll just be another story of "the worst," "the most narcissistic" and "an absolute waste of her life." Just like all the others ones were.

I don't leave a trail of bodies behind me. And my support group isn't even mad at her; they're just focused on how I'm doing. Moving to a restorative place.

Thank you all so much for being a sounding board. I have a lot of weeks left of therapy, of thinking, and of trying to figure out where all the holes in my body and brain are.

Your wife is not a bad person- she's sick.  That's the realization we all eventually come to 12 months, 18 months, 36 months later.  But there's a lot of gut-wrenching emotions before you get there; it's a process andthat's where you'll end up eventually as well. 

She does what she does because she's sick and unstable.  It's heartbreaking for everyone involved and there's no winners or losers.  Everyone loses in divorce.  I hope something changes and the relationship can be saved.  The odds are against that, but still, I always root for the happy ending for the kids sakes.  You absolutely have to put yourself first though and the kids will adjust as you adjust.

Your wife can still come around and make real efforts, but you'll have to let this play out.  Try not to lash out in retaliation, try to show compassion whenever possible.  Trust me, it helps regardless of the path forward.  I divorced without lawyers and remained in our home until it sold.  That's super uncommon, but it is possible if you can find a way to communicate on the other side of all the disordered stuff.  Again, it takes time and it's a process.

Just remember what I've kept repeating- she's sick and the mental hammer is unforgiving.  I feel for her just like I feel for my ex.  I'm glad you're making more permanent arrangements though and taking control.  It seems like you're walking away, but that's not entirely true.  In reality, you're trying to end the conflict and that's where restoration can start.  It also happens to be the first step in divorce as well.

Hang in there, I know it's unbearable but time is on your side.

We are remote and can't fully evaluate your knowledge of your children's circumstances.  But I'd like to share that your children having to move again would probably not be a disaster for them.  Millions of families move and life goes on.  Not simple nor easy, but it often happens.

A question for you... Is your apartment in the same school district?  Does your apartment have enough room for the boys to spend regular time with you, including overnights?  As much as you need space away from a problem soon-to-be ex (stbEx), they too will need time with you - their reasonably normal parent - and space from a disordered or problematic mother.  Your kids need you too, so stay an involved parent.

As for a legal issue, is the house in your name or jointly with your spouse?  Frankly, the house will need to be sold at some point since she is there and can't afford it herself.  Whatever else, don't feel compelled to sign the deed over to her if there is a mortgage in your name.  The last thing you need is to be paying a mortgage for decades on a house you no longer own.  This is why selling the house is so often a practical solution.  You could keep the house if only she would live elsewhere but getting her to agree to leaving would be hard to accomplish.  Which is why forcing a sale so often is what happens.

Both the mortgage and the deed are in each of our names; the plan I've had (in our separation route) is that she can live there for (12) months and that we would then address whether to sell it or I purchase equity from her and remain while she moves on. I presented that I would cover all utilities and we split mortgage 50/50 in the form of a promissory agreement to guide the eventual dissolution papers... why am I so familiar with them? I've filled them out to completion at her request three times. Each time we didn't notarize, I crossed my boundary and just said "okay yeah I'm the problem" to get us to work on it. This time I'm not doing that and the reverberations are felt and heard.

You're right about the kids - they'll be good. It just sucks because *all* of this was about abandonment. After we moved in, after I made 600 trips between dumpsters and locations, after bending over backwards to make the house a reality, I was still told: see how easily you can leave me? Your books aren't here!

Well, the books were here and it only took a single carload of things "that are mine" for "me to be out of the house." Everything I have is the family's. Everything I've worked towards/for has been for the family.

I'm definitely angry. And I'd welcome a sit-down with her therapist together to hear how devastating I've been. It'll only take one or two questions on every fact for the walls to crumble. So yeah, I'm being vindictive... I don't want that for her.

She's a mean one. She loves me so much that she's showing me more hate than I've ever felt. Might as well call that a Borderline pickup line.

It's depressing. I just need to be out of the house and have tranquility. As noted above; nothing begins until this fighting ends.

It went full nuclear tonight (reaction to me packing my things out the way I did).

Time to tie this thread up... it's over. I'm not going back to this. Not now, not tomorrow, not again.

Now it's the chess match; I'll play with care-filled indifference. She can play for the harmony of the algorithms. I'm ready for peaceful nights of sleep, ahead. The power of blocking compels me.

I'm so sorry friend, but you're doing the right thing for your mental health and stability.  The abuse has to stop and she must be the one to stop it.  She HAS TO see that and accept it. 

I'm still hoping for good things for you, regardless of how this turns out.  Maybe she gets serious about therapy.  Maybe she realizes how toxic she's been.  These exact scenarios are how BPDs learn to look within and make meaningful change.

Just keep to your group, keep doing what you're doing, and let the process play out.  Things will be very different a month from now, or three months from now.  Time is on your side and your eyes have opened.  All good stuff.  Now you just need to get through the week.  You'll continue to gain clarity as time marches on.

Good.  Just consider that at any given moment, she is capable of escalating the situation, since she may understand that her carefully constructed life - of course, built on your back, and effort, and with the burden of housework, child rearing, income earning, etc. all on you - is crumbling. 

In her perception, she may have nothing to lose by acting out and escalating conflict, and everything to gain.  So be careful. 

It's a chess match with a person who considers knocking the pieces off the board a legitimate move. 

OH that hits hard

That is a phenomonal analogy!  Well done sir.

How are you doing Bluebird?  Any updates?

Not super well. Got myself moved in to my place with around 10 hours to spare before a flight; during this time I was receiving more text flooding. I’m pretty forward now with responses; “I cannot do this right now” or “I will read these later” to try and slow the cadence.

My lack of response led to her posting a very gleeful Facebook post that made it seem like I abandoned her after her diagnosis (some four years ago). Woke up and left for the airport to a myriad of texts. All in support, all friends and people reaching out. I’m not against the support, I just wasn’t ready to deal with that.

I’m flying home today. It’s hard; my heart wants what’s familiar. My therapist reminded me to set my intentions for how I want to show up in this divorce and to make sure I’m not reflecting her anger in my own responses. She (my pwBPD) and I spoke on Sunday; a mix of sadness, claims about me never changing, rejections of my accounting of things and assertions that I take no accountability for my lies and lack of change. That stirred me up. Last night I felt “oh, man, maybe this is all me.”

So I countered my thoughts my describing the things I need in a partner. And the things that led to my emotional withdrawal in this relationship. I don’t feel better, but I feel less weak going home.

I’m down for a few weeks. I know a mess is ahead. Books, friends, running, trying to make a new normal and figure out what amount of interaction I can have with my kids is next.

Thank you for checking in on me :)

I'm so sorry you're going through this- but that's the only way to get to the other side.

For the Facebook post and the barrage of texts, I'll remind you that you were thrown out.  This was her decision, not yours.  It's okay to be delicate with her feelings, but at the same time you need to live in reality.  Her narratives are no longer your narratives, not right now.  That's what this is about.

I've reminded you every single post- this is not a guarantee of divorce.  It's simply a guarantee for change.  Her tantrums and blaming changes or it doesn't.  You'll respond appropriately.  Every decision is hers to make and you're just standing firm.  Don't let her twist this around any longer...she decided this.  She is choosing this.  You just want peace, whether it's at home with your wife or in an apartment without her.

Hopefully you get to see this kids soon and everyone adapts okay.  Again, I'm so sorry you're in this position.  It's heartbreaking for everyone.  You are doing the right thing though and this is not "all your fault".  She has made every single choice leading up to this moment.

My own  conflict - the ragefests, disrespect, blaming, moaning and groaning, etc - all worsened after we had a child.  Finally, the police got involved, we separated and entered the divorce process.  At that point I fretted less about her and more about our child.  So young, so innocent.  My focus somehow shifted from appeasing my then-spouse to concern for our child.  I guess I considered my marriage a lost cause but I tried my best to do what I could for our preschooler.

Perhaps that transition  hasn't happened yet for you.  But probably it will before much more time passes.  In contrast to your spouse, your children are open books, so to speak, with a lot of promise ahead.  They have many years of learning, playing, sharing, growing and developing into wonderful adults.  Though your spouse may not make it easy, they may be chess pieces to manipulate and pressure you, but even if the marriage ends, your parenting continues on.

When you start to have doubts about this, it's helpful to keep a go-to file of some sort to jog your memory. 

I know generally speaking "holding on to that rage" is a bad idea, but in this context, it can help to keep the right perspective as you move forward and re-establish yourself, outside of the chaos of BPD and what it does to your sense of self.  It's not forever, just until you are truly apart from her and single. 

And when communicating with her (if you have to), the best advice I received was "ignore the editorial"... only respond to what - if anything - needs a response.  This is also consistent with Bill Eddy's "BIFF" method for communicating with high-conflict people: keep all communications Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm. 

So she sends you something like "When are you picking up XYZ?  I am so tired of you being late and never following through. Will you ever learn to be a decent partner and human being?  Probably too much to expect."

You respond: "Hi, thanks for your email.  I'll be by at 6." 

And that's it.  That response will take the wind out of her sails... you're polite (which is disarming), you don't argue any points, you don't include anything she can get upset over.  She got the information she claimed she wanted, and can go stew if she wants, but you're not doing anything to raise the temperature. 

and if nothing deserves a response, don't even respond.  You don't have to any more, and I think for a BPD looking for a fight, no response is worse than any response.

This.

The vitriol comes and goes. My pwBPD seems to be in a constant split/spiral/push-pull scenario at the moment. Yesterday it was calm for a few hours and then extreme. I'm taking the BIFF to heart. And being called a narcissist again and again. She's threatening this/that, but I just see a very sad, very alone, very angry human who can't keep from burning down all the bridges around her. I no longer feel an empathetic draw to her; I'm annoyed, now. Eager for her to cycle down so we can get a mediator involved and try to move this thing along.

I hate texting with her. Talking to her makes me lose respect each time.  It's odd to see this woman who I once loved become a tiny, shrinking shell of a being  who I no longer respect. That might be encapsulated in her responses of "you never loved me" and "you hate me" and "you have never respected me." And the newest one, "you bought and trapped me in this house knowing exactly what you were doing, and planning to never change!"  Wow... talk about a commitment to the bit from me, were that the case. What's fun? Taking my  mentally ill, psychologically imbalanced wife with Borderline, buying a home, moving in, and then moving out! Yup. That's real. That's a real perspective.

Truth be told...  I have continued to lose respect for her day after day for eight years. Until I hit the end of my bucket a little over a month ago.

There is no redeeming this; my confliction is dissipating. She'll try and be controlling/destructive with the kids, and it'll cost her more than me. They're strong boys.

People with Borderline deserve to be understood. This doesn't necessitate loving them. I am not obligated to be in love with her or to continue this marriage... don't know why it took me so long to accept that.

I believe that when you set a precedent of treating a person a certain way (she/me) you lose right to mandated validation and understanding. I no longer owe the obligation of absorbing the blame, accepting the false realities, or validating a perpetual cycle of emotional dysregulation.

Naming it outload has been helpful. I'm no longer in fear. I'm almost  laughing as I try and guess what extreme she'll take it to, next. It's all silly, sad, and a catastrophic collapse of a moment.

To answer your question, because you're a decent enough person and you wanted marriage to work.  You were co-dependent on her, even though it cost you more than you could afford.

You've been out of the fog for several weeks now and your perspective is changing.  I no longer see a deeply wounded person flailing forward.  You're finally starting to stand on your own two feet and now the anger is coming...anger is good.  It took me six months to reach the anger phase so you're way ahead of me.

On my journey, after anger came compassion (which is why I keep telling you she's sick, she can't help it).  After compassion comes acceptance, that you can't fix her and this wasn't your fault.  At least you gave everything a real effort though and hoped for the best, at least you hung in there as long as possible for the kids.

You're going to be okay, my friend.  These next few months are going to be brutal, but at least you're waking up and seeing what's really happening here.  There is another side of this once you make it through.  You just have to keep moving forward one day at a time.

Eventually, her anger will fade out as well.  She may even try to romance you back while apologizing for everything and promising to change.  Start preparing for that now.  That's why I've repeatedly said that this isn't over, the marriage is not yet finished.  She lashes out so hard because she cares that much, she doesn't want to lose you despite doing everything possible to burn it all down. 

Just be ready for the pivot, where everything suddenly becomes rainbows and unicorns again like when you first met.  It might be weeks away, it might be months.  But it's probably coming.  That's actually the toughest part because you do love her...but your eyes have also been opened and you know the cycle will eventually repeat.  Wishing you luck, my friend.

Thank you, all of you. It means a lot.

Tonight has been another rollercoaster- ya’ll ain’t lying when you say there are hard times ahead, hah.

It’s almost insane to watch it go from normal to aggressive to really wounded and angry in single text threads. We’ve reached the “you must be sleeping with someone else” “I’m going to go sleep with someone else” segment. Meanwhile I’m lying on a rug with the cats she wanted and didn’t want.

Inside? I’m at peace. Hell, I’m going to go to bed early.

With a disordered relationship we never know what will be the trigger that makes us hit rock bottom and decide we are done. When we get to that point, it is overwhelming because of all the past abuses we have endured and all the new boundaries to put in place. You are now on your way up and slowly things will get better.

Glad you experienced peace despite the rollercoaster. I know that takes work!

Hi everyone!

I found a good divorce mediator and have passed the contact along to my wife; I'm fairly certain I'm in a discard phase so this might be great. My own therapist and I are working through mental preparations for the charming or future anger that gets thrown my direction. This past week has been almost no contact and - frankly - it's been so restorative.

I've made a promise to myself to focus on mind and health for the remainder of this year. We don't need to be thinking about dating or anything, haha. But I'll say it was really nice; I've received a few

Step... by... step. I'm hoping the mediator e-mail doesn't create drama, but I was tasked with it... so, it shouldn't? Ah. Shouldn't. The illogical word.

*a few nice smiles and conversations wandering through my days, and it felt really nice to just... feel like someone was being nice? Genuinely?

All good stuff.  You're putting yourself first and you're creating a plan to move forward.  Either she agrees to it or she doesn't.

The biggest part is that you're healing while going through this process; that's the hardest aspect and you're handling it like a champ.  You'll continue to gain clarity as this process unfolds as well, week by week, you'll be a little bit more you.

Depending on what shared assets and debts there are, a divorce mediator may be unable to succeed.  Let me restate that... Most of us tried mediation, after all it is a required second step in a divorce, after the initial temp order.  So don't be disappointed if it ultimately ends with a stalemate.

However, most of our divorces do eventually end in settlements.  That is partly due to the multiple steps in a divorce but more likely due to the court willing to put off making rulings or decisions and instead allow repeated continuances.  (Judges don't like making decisions since they don't want an appeal to a higher court to reverse a decision.)  It's as if the court is a reluctant referee stating, "Be adults, you can work this out, so just do it."  Alas, our cases don't involve two reasonably normal adults.


It is nice to have normal conversations with overall positive people, isn't it?  But we are wise to avoid getting into another relationship before we have a measure of recovery from this one.  How to know when we are rebalanced and ready?  One way to realize this might be an undesirable rebound relationship is if we keep talking about all the crazy making experiences with our new ex.  Better to work those aspects out with a counselor.

Prepare yourself for being "recycled" quickly. 

I would say that it's easier for a woman to find a man and get hooked up than vice versa, but I don't know if that's true or fair.  I can say with some certainty that it's definitely easier for a person with no standards and no qualms about using people to get hooked up quickly. 

Oh god, I welcome this if it means I get to move on lol

Mentally, I'm preparing for all the possibilities. Hopefully her DBT specialist aides keeping her anchored throughout. Fingers are crossed, mind is guarded, heart is in recovery mode on a beach somewhere.

yeah, it happened in my case, and she kept trying to play coy and expected me to get upset, as though I cared that she was with someone else.  My only concern was for who was she allowing to be around my daughter.  I had more or less moved on well before we actually separated and filed for divorce and was happy to be out of there.  If it hadn't been for our daughter together, I don't think I would have ever spoken to her again after I moved out. 

ironically, when we divorced, she pushed for a "morality clause" in our temporary orders, stating that no members of the opposite sex were allowed to sleep over when our child was there.  She started violating this a couple months following our separation.  She had no concern whatsoever for anyone other than herself.

I’m so sorry. That’s a rough position to be in.

Why didn’t they give us a manual for this in SexEd? Hah!

Tonight I packed away pictures and memories. I don’t want to destroy them yet but I don’t want them in my apartment. I read a lot of cards. I think she meant what she wrote. She was earnest in those moments. But the moments clouded and the emotions rolled in.

I’ll be happy when this is behind me. And when it is, I’m going to be here whenever I can to help others who are seeking.

Thank you all so much for absorbing my pain while you can, how you can. I come here instead of Instagram (off of it) and this is my anti-drug.

Family.

That's right.  Family!  We'll get through this together.

HoooOOOooowee nothing like a Thursday morning spiral to remind me I'm in the right direction! Along with it come observations:

(a) I am not engaging with the rage bate or responding to accusations.
(b) My nerves recovered much more quickly this time, and I stayed emotionally grounded.
(c) My desire to argue the logic of statements and/or accusations has left... there's just no arguing with her version of the world.

Recovered. Didn't engage. Moved forward.

Did make me wonder: how often do you think they peruse this site? I'm guessing that's happened (especially in contested environments).

Off to a phone call with my mediator. I'm not revealing anything to her about my wife's condition as it's irrelevant to mediation. That's a next step, can't-get-mediation-to-work reveal. We'll see.

Have a good day, all.

I think it's less than we expect; BPDers look for 3rd parties to get involved online and triangulate with, and the people who comment here are pretty even-keeled and don't post into a lot of righteous "OH MY GOD YOU POOR THING, LEAVE THAT EVIL MONSTER" kinda things that feed drama, or throws fuel on a fire, to use another metaphor.  I have wondered about some posters from time to time, but they tend to wander away when they don't get those dopamine hits from additional drama here.

I have posted on other sites related to marital/relationship advice, and they're often cesspools of judgement and drama.  Sometimes you can get some advice there, but a lot of times, it just adds to your issues when other people try to pick fights with you because they have their own axe to grind.
 

Still, it's good to keep a lot of information that could be used to identify yourself out of posts.  No need to post your actual location, names, ages, or other personally identifiable information.  In fact, I think it's best to make up background information to the extent it's not needed for others to provide advice. 

So for example, if you live in Delaware, say you live in Maryland or something.  And so on. 

It certainly does get easier over time, because the patterns become much clearer.  She yelled at you because she's sick.  So what?  Let her yell as you say goodbye and wish her a great day.

I would literally "kill my ex with kindness" and I think that bothered her more than anything.  Several times she asked why I wasn't fighting back and I simply said, "Because I love you and there's no reason to argue."  It rocked her entire reality- why is this hateful, abusive man so nice to me all the time?  Huh, maybe he's not an abusive, hateful man after all.

It will continue to get easier as the FOG fades.  You should be proud of yourself because you've been doing great.

'Six years too late. It's never too late' grabbed my attention.

10 years on from my daughter's diagnosis. The people who were there for her then are here today.

My daughter lent a book of Blaise Aguirre that was not returned, Blaise sent a replacement.

I hope your partner is up for DBT, changed my daughter's life around. She's still living.

WDx