BPDFamily.com

So as a continuation of my "tired and worn out" thread... .
Chillamom I was thinking about how you said you want to establish trust with your children who hate your bf. I want to do the same thing.
And your saying we should just finally do something really lit a spark in me. I am very sad and frightened, but when my bf did contact me-as you said he would- I listened to him go on. He was still insisting I throw my son's stuff out from the basement. He was still very angry, feeling disrespected... .blah blah blah
When he said that he had to walk away I calmly replied "OK" and went about my business. I stuck to the fact that I am not doing as he wishes. I had changed my mind and was not going to be bullied into doing otherwise.
Today he told me that I forced his hand. Well I then did the following:
I told him VERY honestly that I was no longer interested in his anger issues. He has no right to treat me like he has been and I WILL NOT under any circumstances tolerate it another day. If it means we break up, so be it. He has never heard me utter those words before. I told him I finally found my self respect and will not be bullied anymore.
He is off on a rampage now, but I am surprisingly ok.
I'm sure it will hit me later. I just don't know where I finally got the strength to say that to him.

 |iiii    |iiii


FF

Thanks FF! I still can't believe I actually found my voice today. It actually feels good to have finally broken through my own insecurities and stand up. Don't get me wrong, I know I have a road in front of me but at least for right now, I can say I am OK.
I have to admit I am a bit puzzled by the fact that he had absolutely nothing to say when I was bringing up his anger issues. It's like I said nothing. He is still raging, beating down but I'm behind my castle walls.
That was such good advice.

 |iiii    |iiii    |iiii    |iiii

Build those castle walls!  Build a damn moat around it!  Fill it with piranhas and crocodiles, !  You did a magnificent and powerful thing today, woman!  GOOD FOR YOU. 

And now the proverbial ball is in his court.  You stopped him in his tracks, and in my opinion, this could perhaps be an opening for him to see your perspective and become more reasonable (somewhat unlikely I believe) OR it will be the beginning of you taking back YOUR POWER and embarking upon a path that heals you and moves you away from the chaos.

More later, I just wanted to say GOOD FOR YOU!

You crack me up Chillamom!
Thank you for those words. I am quaking in my boots, but holding steady. I did surprise him that is for sure. It's almost comical if it wasn't so sad that he is still going on about me proving I love him by emptying the basement... .I have no words. I just keep picturing this latest hoop to jump through and then all the others that would follow. I don't know.
Just praying I keep this feeling and the strength... .

Wow I AM SO PROUD OF YOU!

Way to go. 

BRAVO!

Next time you peek over the castle wall... .remember that it's all bluster... .not even any horses... .just guys banging coconuts together.

FF

FF there are a LOT of coconuts being banged together out there-I am being treated to the mother of all extinction bursts. But all I did was peek and I am safe and sound behind the wall.
I was actually worried about him, he was so out of control. All because I won't kick my son's stuff out of the basement! (yes I DO realize this is all about power and manipulation and not actually a cement rectangle).

There is no point in even ATTEMPTING to speak with him as he is so far gone.
Just give me strength to weather this cyclone!

Lala thank you--I am trying. It was great to hear from you-I hope you are doing well and getting better every day!

Maintaining a boundary in the midst of a hurricane is very difficult. The thing I can say though, is that every time I repeat my stance that I will not do as he asks-even though a few weeks ago I said I would-I feel stronger and more convicted that I am not wrong, crazy, ignorant, nor am I a liar.

RUN AWAY!  sorry I couldn't  come up with a more obscure Monty Python reference, but this one works!

allienoah, weather this extinction burst and I swear, write down everything you are feeling and hearing from him now and FEEL it every time you are tempted to think he is anything other or WILL be anything other than what he is showing you right now!

I was unable to do and as you know am utterly miserable in the midst of another recycle, lying awake every night till 3 or 4 crying and wondering how the HELL to get out and stay out this time.  You are doing so well and I know its so hard.  But now the hardest part begins - fortifying those castle walls so you won't end up like me, depressed and tearful and trapped.

And still, all I can think about is how SAD HE is…nothing about myself,  And that concern for his emotions keeps me mired in misery.   You got this far!  A few months ago you didn't think you would!  And do it for YOU.  Not your kids, as much as you love them, do it for YOU.  You deserve NORMAL  LOL Not that I would know normal if it bit me on the bottom…but KEEP IT UP.

I know this is awful, and if he's anything like mine, when the raging stops, he will manipulate with tears and pleas and promises.  Gird your loins for battle….and make no mistake, you're probably in for one.  But keep those castle walls high and ignore the coconuts, as FF says (makes me want to find my old copy of Monty Python and the Holy Grail…guess I'm dating myself).

Don't drop the damn drawbridge! 

I am so sorry you bear this horrible pain chillamom... it must be exhausting for you and so demoralizing. You get it I'm sure when I say that I'm a bit numb right now. He has been raging and raging and at one point called and just gasped like he was having an attack. Pure manipulation! I know this because minutes later he was. Sick to screaming, name calling, character assasination... you name it. I am going to have dinner with two dear friends/ who will see I'm upset but I will hold my head up and muster through. He is NOT robbing me of my life anymore. And yes in his eyes I am cold hearted and a million other ugly things. Truthfully I'm sick to my stomach ... .but I didn't want to go home and stew.
We nons really have to stick together for support... it is so very important. I don't know how this road is going to go... but I'm on it... .

Hi, allienoah,

Exhausting and demoralizing for sure…and I understand the manipulation and guilt that are being thrown your way (although guilt is something he WANTS you to feel, not a justifiable emotion).  Mine also feigned a heart attack on several occasion when he was raging; dropping to the ground and clutching at this chest and all (mind you, he is a strapping 31 year old without a health problem in sight).  I'm the one who actually has a heart condition, and I can tell you that over the years the stress from him has worsened it!

And oh yeah, the character assassination….the least of it is that I am a lying manipulative b***ch who never loved him and just used him (for 9 years), he has made an effort in the last recycle (6 weeks) to cut back on the name calling but when I break up with him which has to come soon it's all going to start over again.

I'm so glad you went out with friends tonight!  I'm taking my twins to the movies and we just ate excessive amounts of BBQ, all the while with the NPD/BPD furiously texting in the background that I. "need to get my kids to like him".  He refuses to acknowledge his part in their feelings - the fact that he insulted them and their older sister, the fact that they heard him ranting at me MANY times, the holes they say punched in the wall... But oh, no, he "never did anything wrong".  I'm actually getting myself feeling sick when I think that I spent 9 years of my precious life coddling this person, tonight for some reason I am just furious…

I understand how you're feeling; I was actually diagnosed with IBS and an autoimmune condition over the course of our relationship, and my physicians  have emphasized that both conditions are exacerbated by stress...   Please don't go home and stew!  Escape into something mindless if you can, or if you're a better person than I, go exercise and practice mindfulness.  LOL, I'm not up to anything constructive right now, but it's good advice I've heard here often.

And we cold hearted merciless monsters have to stick together!  I hope you are having/will have a good night despite it all, and I am hoping for strength for both of us in the decisions that will be held to and (for me) implemented.

I was able to go out and enjoy myself. I know what you mean, chillamom, when you say even though you were out that you were barraged with text messages.
That used to happen to me all the time. It makes you extremely uncomfortable.
I love when the bf's say they did nothing wrong to cause our children to dislike them. Honestly mine has said " I didn't do anything to them, it was about me and you" as if his screaming at me is none of my kids business when they are right there, or overhear.

Last night was difficult, in that again I peeked out of the castle, and was confronted with a barrage of "reasoning" on his part about why I have no right to change my mind on this issue. And how he told everyone at work about my "basement issue" and lack of respect on my part. I really have to ignore this smear campaign.

It was also hard as he was once again calling me names. I made the mistake of allowing the names to hurt me... .for 5 minutes. Then I came to reality and dismissed any validation of the names. Funny I was posting recently about a point of no return and it looks like me sticking firmly to a boundary and asserting my right to change my mind is actually that point. Call me stubborn, but I am not budging on this.

It's not likely to be a point of no return for him. He will very likely give up on this tactic if it fails to move you, and drop the issue or change the issue.

The question is whether it's a point of no return for YOU, or whether, now that you've developed the practice of protecting boundaries around how you want to live your life, you accept his abuse tactics periodically when he tries to dislodge your resolve.

That is a good point. I do however think it is a point for him. He is very vocal about what he deserves and how I fail to give it to him. He is still looking for me to "fix" this-translation, abandon my boundary. That is not going to happen. So he says I am making a huge mistake as he has so much more love to give me and I am turning it away to be "stubborn over a basement". Again we all know this is about control.
More importantly, you are correct that it IS up to me whether this is that point for ME. I am feeling a bit uncomfortable and uneasy today. I still believe in what I am doing. This is just unchartered territory for me. Usually I have caved by now. Just sitting here though, and thinking of the abuse and drama, keeps me in check.

THIS ... .is bulls***. It appears to be a common tactic (as reported here and in my own experience) from the BPD playbook to make up imaginary supporters or public pressure or to offer up empty threats.

Reality check -- your coworker rants to you about how his partner isn't letting him control her kids over a messy basement. What would you think? You'd think this person is off his rocker, which is most likely what his coworkers think already.

@ flourdust
100% correct about this being bull****.
Actually I thought that when he first went down there and took video pictures of it and sent it to me. Along with color commentary!
At that time I took it as a childish thing he was doing to stick it to me. When he told me he showed it at work, I was convinced he is a lunatic. Of course he asked "everyone" if it looked like a drug den and allegedly they agreed. Now I am no idiot, and just because you have Christmas lights hanging up and 2 flags-American and Don't Tread on Me-does not a drug den make. Talk about a smear campaign. Geez, I kept white Christmas lights up to decorate year-round!
So if he wants to talk about disrespect, have at it, because this has been beyond disrespectful on his part.
It's time like this that I have to ask myself "I am feeling sad and uncomfortable about this r/s, WHY?"

I think there is a boundary issue here that I would address directly and succintly... .BEFORE ever allowing him back in YOUR house.

If it was me, I would put it in writing and have him sign it... .or respect his choice to not sign it... and NEVER let him back in my house again.  Clarity:  This is likely not an "approved" bpdfamily tool because it would likely trigger shame and rage and whatever... .but FOR ME... .this would be a make or break boundary issue. 

Time for everyone to make clear written choices.  It's also very important you get the answer from him... .and not others.  If a coworker asks you about it... .I would express shock and CONFIRM with them that a video of your private space was shown around WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT.  Then... .you are too shocked to continue any conversation about it.

It would go something like this.

":)id you show the video of the basement to my coworkers?"

blah blah blah assume he will eventually say yes

Let him know that you will "consider" allowing him back on your property after you "think this through" and see if you can create a "written covenant of trust and understanding" to protect "your family's" privacy. 

This is not just about you.

Consider this:  What if he indadvertently showed something of your son's that would cause your son a great embarrassment... .or worse.

If he says he will never sign anything... .then I would (knowing the laws of my state) send him a certified return receipt letter stating he is not allowed on your property and he will be considered to be trespassing if he returns.

Time for choices... .

He either respects your home... .or not.

But... .that's what I would do.   

I've kicked several of my wife's FOO out of our family house for various things.  It's not about me... it's about the environment that I choose to have my children in.  NOBODY comes in my house and dictates that to me... .

Plus... they already think I'm an a$$hole... .and I'm fine with validating that point of view... . 

Three cheers FF!
Yes that was a huge intrusion of my and my son's privacy. Honestly there was nothing embarrassing seen but that is besides the point. That bf thought it was acceptable to do that? I'm sorry-that's ridiculous. And it is slanderous as well. Thank you for pointing all of that out.
I really don't want him in my home at this point. He has verbally abused me. He has discarded me. He has refused to respect my boundary. He has begun a smear campaign and he is insulting my son as well.
I really sound off balance but to be honest I am all over the place between anger, sadness, indignation, and despair.
I think the best thing for me to do this evening is to try to do some self-care and not even THINK about looking over the castle walls. Hopefully he was ambushed from behind.

If you called him... would he answer?

I think you need to "lean forward on this"

Call... be friendly... .

"Hey... .thanks for taking my call... that means a lot to me. (very important to be friendly)  Did you show the video to my coworkers?"

No detours... .no answers to "why does it matter"

Do a couple rounds of listening and then the only thing you say is...

"Right now I need to get back to my question.  Did you show the video to my coworkers?"  Still be friendly... .but a bit firmer... no shock yet... .slightly inquisitive.

Literally... .say nothing else other than "I need to get back to... ."

If he says yes...

said with incredulity... ."So... .you showed the video to my coworkers?" (now shock is important... .no rage)

"I'm going to have to give this some thought, before I say something I regret... goodbye" (click)

Don't answer or respond to texts... .I'll help you with a letter.

FF

I'm on it! Will definitely do that. He will answer the phone-he will expect me to reach out to "make it right"-as if!
I will do exactly that you advised.
And I would love your help with the letter.

I can't thank you enough. Really!

You've got this! 

No detours... .be friendly... .get answer... express shock... .exit to think it through.

Should he say no... .that he didn't send it/show it.

"Thanks answering the question and clearing up a rumor I heard.  Always best to handle these things directly.  I've got to run... .talk to you soon. "

FF

So I called him... he answered... posed the question and he fessed up right away! I think he was proud of himself! I followed your guideline FF and got off the phone. He tried to call back but I didn't answer. Now I'm frozen out. It's ok though. I'm home. I'm with my son and it's quiet and calm. No drama. We'll see where this goes.
I am digesting the whole situation tonight and I'm not at peace. I guess I have to be patient with myself. Honestly it really hurts

Good job!  You stood up for yourself and conducted a conversation by sticking to a game plan.

Give it some time... .consider if you want to give him a chance with written boundaries... .if you want a break for a while... .or done.

Make up your mind on your schedule.

FF

Hi, allienoah,

I have to confess I laughed a little bit at the fact that he seemed proud of himself when you posed this question  - in my opinion another example of how unable he is to take another's perspective (and also probably why he was viewed quite strangely when he "presented the evidence" for the "evil drug den" at his workplace).  I think the question FF advised you to ask was brilliant, and I really admire how you handled it and then moved on.  I can imagine it has resulted in you feeling pretty much at loose ends this evening, because at some level you know that this is really ultimately forcing you to make a decision, and every step you take in the direction you are going may make your ultimate direction inevitable.  Honestly, good for you and I hope I can muster the strength to do so soon as well.

Being patient with yourself sounds alternatively sensible and hard, and I do understand how much this hurts.  Every time I have set any boundary with mine my almost knee-jerk reaction is to check in on HIS feelings and try to soften the blow of what always has been a reasonable request.  I guess that's my co-dependency talking, or as my T says, I'm just too damn nice (I disagree because I get pushed to the limit by PWBPD and verbally react quite a bit at times (although mostly I freeze because I am freaking SCARED of him-which is another issue).

Anyway, more great steps on your part, allienoah.  As the song goes, "Enjoy the Silence" and cherish a peaceful evening at home with your son.  Many more of those could be in your future if you stay the course, and you WILL make the choice that's right for you.

Knowing him as you do... .what would "complete respect" for your home and privacy look like?

I am sure he grew entitled over time.  Is there a time you can remember when he was respectful?

Words matter.  You trusted him to respect your home and privacy... .this is a "betrayal of trust".

Try out that phrase in your head and see if it fits... .if not... .find a different phrase.  Be consistent in how you describe it to him... .when/if the time comes.


FF

Good morning!

I'm hoping you can share how you feel about the action you have taken so far.

Can you compare that to how you felt about relationship decisions of a month ago... .year ago?

FF

Well I did spend my evening doing as I wished. I feel almost surreal as I have maintained my boundary on the basement issue and will not budge. I agree chillamom that my ultimate direction here is inevitable at this point.

FF complete respect for my home and privacy looks like adhering to what I decide to do around my house, acknowledging when I need my space alone, and not going on a raging rant that stems from insecurity.
I have suffered a complete betrayal of trust from him. Funny thing is -that is what he says he feels from me-betrayal.
On my way to work he called, and I answered. We had plans this w/e to go to a game, and then my boss's home for a bbq. Needless to say, he will not be joining me. He asked me not to go myself so we could "work on our situation". As my gf that lives out of state is in town and invited to the game, I told him under no circumstances am I not going to the game. Of course I am a cold-hearted you-know-what.

I maintained my stance on the basement. He accused me of being passive-aggressive. I disagree. He also informed me that although I told him I wasn't tolerating his raging another day, I could and should expect that every time I "disrespected him or changed my mind (ie not do what I said I was going to do). Well I thanked him for this "heads up" about what I can expect. I think this kind of puts a period on this thing. Honestly?
"Yes honey I will definitely fix our relationship knowing full well that whenever you disagree with me and my opinions I can expect to be drawn and quartered by you"... .Hmmmm. Not happening.
I am now back behind the castle walls, and wondering if I should ever peek over them again.

I would also like to add that during the long soliloquy about how disrespected he feels and how horrible I am, he also informed me that he will not spend another day feeling as he feels, and he will make my life a "living hell". Nice words from someone trying to get things back on track. And still not even remotely listening to a word I say. I can't believe how I did not yell, JADE or anything. It seems odd how calm I remained.

Allienoah,

I think you did "fine" on the phone call.  My hope is that he can find a way to respect your boundaries.  Your job is to communicate in a healthy way with him and give him opportunities to change... .and respect his decisions... either way.

There is some responsibility that you have to not "go there" to places where you know he will fail, given where he is at right now.

If some things begin to change, perhaps others will as well.

So... my first reaction is that you should stick with the house/privacy issue and not discuss ANY other issues with him... .

All he would need to know is that you are "shocked" and need time to think it through and you will let him know when you are ready to communicate about that.

No need to talk about games... .or JADE about a person coming into town or any of that.

Stick to the issue at hand.  If it gets solved to your satisfaction... .perhaps you move forward on others.

Presented another way "Why work on other issues when a "dealbreaker" is still broken?"

I am glad you remained calm and didn't yell.

Somewhat in his defense:  Staying on that phone that long with him will lead to threats and/or dysregulation.  That's a given at this point.  So... .not saying give him a pass on his threat... .but there is also no new news there either.

Focus on the home issue... .let everything else go (for now).

FF

You're absolutely right. I gave him the opportunity to work himself up to threats. And yes I should have just stuck to the home issue. I took the bait admittedly when he brought up all the plans we had for the weekend before I "pulled my crap".
The issue right now is exactly that... .him respecting my boundaries. I do have a right to set them, maintain them. I have a right to discuss things with him and change my mind about MY HOUSE and MY FAMILY.
I just keep saying that to myself to reaffirm.
I am shocked over that whole video thing. He still thinks he did nothing wrong. 
I am not confident it will be solved to my satisfaction. I think I am in for more extreme extinction bursts and raging. You are completely correct though that I have to respect his decisions as well. That is only fair.
You can't force someone to respect you or agree with you, or even try to work with you.

I'm glad that you have the theory of the boundaries.  Even more important, you have the ability to "look back" and see where he "hooked you" or better yet... .where you "bit the hook".  He will try to hook you... that is a given (for now).






Keep working on mindset.  He is in for extinction bursts and raging.  You may be affected if you choose to participate.

I do get it that you can't totally isolate yourself and will likely see some lovely texts... .or listen to the start of a message that he leaves. 

I want to challenge you to remember  and think about "banging coconuts" when that happens.  It should put a smile on your face and keep you from "biting the hook".

I will give you license (and a dare... .  ... .bad FF)... .next time you "bite the hook"... hopefully you realize it while you are on the phone call.  After you realize it... .giggle out-loud and say "Now... go away before I taunt you a second time... ."

 |iiii

FF

 FF
I am in! Interesting point you make too, regarding whether or not I actually participate in the extinction bursts.
You would think I was setting the cruelest boundary in the world with the way this has gone on. It really has been an eye-opener. I couldn't have validated, empathized or acknowledged more than I did... .clearly it doesn't matter. He is so very stuck in his feeling that I am disrespecting him and am ungrateful that it would take 100 Mac trucks to pull him out at this point.
And as you said, I will respect his decision. I know I have support to get me through.

allienoah,
I trust you are going to the game with your friend and all…do you have a decent plan for the weekend to stay busy, because in my experience more time on his hands will = more and bigger and wilder extinction bursts, possibly interspersed with loving, pleading messages (which I always found the hardest to ignore, hence here I sit in another spin cycle).

Truth be told, I think formflier has the patience of a veritable saint, and I admire him and his wonderful ability to give such compassionate advice and convey it so well to others.  I wish I could be more like him!  I don't have anywhere near that level of tolerance - or maybe I have to admit to myself that I just don't feel as strongly as I used to about my pwBPD, but I am going to echo my therapist this morning when she told me : Why in hell would you be willing to make the compromises you are making?  To be such a negative role model for your children?  To live a double life?"  She kinda shocked me because she is usually very non-directive - but she metaphorically shook me by the shoulders and said "Chillamom, you have been very close to masochistic in your tolerance of his crap.  You don't have to live that way!"

Apparently (and I vaguely remember this from loong ago) normal relationships ARE NOT THIS MUCH EFFORT AND DON'T HURT.  Apparently, some people come home from work, hangout and cook dinner with their partner, eat with everyone all together, sit and chill or watch Netflix or do errands and enjoy warm summer nights TOGETHER. 

Apparently it's possible….and God bless those who have the patience to try and make it work with a "high conflict person" (or in my case a diagnosed NPD/BPD) but I just don't.  I hope you can maintain the integrity of those castle walls and ignore the coconuts being flung in your direction this weekend.  Enjoy that game!

It's an interesting thought... .because as I look at major turning points in my r/s... .especially turning points that brought about positive change in my relationship, it was during times that I was "intolerant" of behavior... .or... more precisely... .found that behavior I had been tolerating was not longer tolerable.

That's a mouthful!   

The last big one... .where I pulled up the drawbridge to the castle and said it would never go down again was when I moved "my money" to "my accounts" and cut my wife off.

There is still some joint money from joint investments.

And she has her money.

The thing was the amount in question was relatively small... .roughly $300.  If there had been more, she likely would have taken it to give to her father (long story).

We had an agreement, from reconciling previous financial betrayals, that there would "never again" be money sent to her parents without both of us agreeing.  The agreement actually worked for a year or so.

Now... I don't make financial agreements with her.  It's that simple.

Yep... she banged coconuts and I played with my grail... .it's very nice!

FF

Hey chillamom!
You are damn straight I am going to that game. And as it is pouring rain here, if the game is called I am meeting her for dinner in the city. I have a bbq at my boss's home tomorrow night and I will be taking care of myself and my home the other time. So yes I have enough to keep me busy. Bf has his kids this weekend so hopefully that will provide enough of a distraction to leave me be.
FF absolutely does have the patience of a saint!
FF you inspire me to think differently and consider things I normally would not think of. Your guidance has been so valuable.
Relationships should not be this hard. We should not have to constantly worry and be anxious. I realize all r/s are work and compromise, but this goes beyond. It IS like living a double life. Our loving romantic walking on eggshells way with the bf and the otherwise capable logical loving friends/mothers/workers. It is exhausting.

My castle walls are still up and fortified. He is now being very short with me and still trying to force his issue. Honestly I know what you are saying when you feel you don't know if you feel as strongly as you did about him. I am honestly feeling less and less attracted to him as he keeps this nonsense up.
The thing I worry about is if, as you suggested, he reverts to love bombing and I weaken. So I guess I have to be conscious that it could happen and prepare myself. My gut tells me this is going to get worse before it gets better though.

allienoah, your gut is right.  I can tell you from years of bitter experience that inevitably resulted in me caving, sometimes after months and months.  I am facing the same thing now…how do I fortify my own castle walls so that he doesn't come through with another Trojan horse (or Trojan rabbit, I think, if we're keeping the Monty Python theme).  I know I absolutely crumble when he starts in manipulating me with guilt…my task now is to build my resistance, but it seems so cruel to cut him off completely…... I've been waffling about this FOR YEARS. 

Have a wonderful time despite the rain!

When you wrote that your bf said you could expect rages whenever you disrespect him (paraphrased, but that was the essence... .), I couldn't help but think of the Maya Angelou quote.

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

Gotcha!

bassackwards thinking... . I'm sure your pwBPD has said this... and you bought it hook line and sinker

Get your thinking straight.

I have no idea what specific thing you "cut him off from"... .but I'm going to go out on a limb and say it doesn't matter.

It's your thing.

Therefore... .it's your vote

He gets to read the election results and he gets to feel however he wants to feel.

Said another way.

You have left a door open to the relationship... .a "pathway" if you will.  If he chooses to not walk that pathway... that's his choice  HE cut himself off... .not you.

Does this ring true in your example?  :)o the specifics matter?

FF

formflier,

thanks for your reminder on the "bassackwards" thinking, .  Guilty as charged….in fact guilty of everything, which is why the pwBPD still had a firm hold on me.  Sadly for him, his disordered personality has resulted in him having no friends, having no relationship with his family (despite living with them) and basically antagonizing/alienating every person in his life, safe for long suffering, overly maternal (likely codependent) me.  When I have left before (one time for 6 months, one time for 5) he manipulated me back with pleas and tears and reminders that he has no one, and it's pretty much true.  I know that I am not responsible for his feelings, but at some level I feel I am (as he frequently reminds me that I "stole" his 20's from him and ruined his life, I'm much older than he is, and he wants children whereas I'm past that point and my own 3 kids will not tolerate his presence).

My task right now is to figure out how to release with grace, and understand what that might look like.  I don't think I'm strong enough to remain friends with him, but I also don't know how to "fortify my castle" and deal with the extinction bursts, which have been both brutally abusive and tearfully begging, in the past.

And the worst thing about it right now is that he is acting somewhat sensible and rational.  At least today.  Don't know why I'm so quick to forgive him.  Last week he was raging, projecting, screaming FU at me and blaming it all on me….and today he was saying "well, I haven't been abusive in a very long time."  Guess 5 days or so qualifies.

Anyway, if you have any ideas on how to get my bassackwards brain on a better path, I'd love to hear.  I respect your advice so much - and I know you live it each day, which is very very admirable.  Thanks.

It does get better... .my relationship/family is far more stable than a couple years ago... .

There have been ups and downs and I've learned a lot to smooth things out. 

I still get "caught" by circular arguments... .but it's been a while since I've gone around more than three times.

So... to those that say relationships shouldn't be this much work... .I agree.  The amount of work I have put into my relationship has actually gone down and the amount I've put into my self care has gone up.

I subtracted out all the work I used to do trying to convince her that she was banging coconuts and helping her look for her holy grail. 

Once I decided that my grail was very nice and stayed inside... .there was lots of extra work and effort I could redistribute.

Anyway... .I just had a thought.  Maybe your BF is a witch... .?

I wonder how we could tell?

FF

Formflier... .wasn't drowning the test?

Anyway, thank you, and I'm glad your techniques have been so successful for your family.  I have no doubt they would be very useful,here as well, save for  the sheer fact that my daughters have already told me that there is no chance that they could ever accept my relationship with him. I stay with him, I lose a normal relationship with them .  Oh, yes... and also because I suspect he wants to cultivate a relationship with them so that he can have them bear his children... ,,this has been something  he noted before and I think he was serious.This person had been diagnosed with a lot more than BPD/NPD... .he is likely schizophrenic as well, according to several psychiatrists.  I'm dealing with a very volatile situation and unfortunately no amount of good communication and validation will change things in the long run.  It's time to go for real and no longer worry about how he reacts... .although a lot of why I have stayed has to do with fear of what he will ultimately do, either to himself, my kids, or myself.

FF I would say you definitely have been successful at using the techniques, and you seem in a good place with yourself. You actually give me confidence with YOUR confidence.
Chillamom I have the same issue with my kids as you know. My r/s with them varies depending on how distant my bf seems to be.
Let me get this straight, your bf wants your children to bear HIS? Seriously?
I can imagine your situation is very volatile. I am slowly learning to not let bf's moods affect me.
I did enjoy my weekend and honestly I did speak with bf. I maintained my castle walls, though. He is identifying me as stubborn and all, but actually I will take that as a compliment because I am not folding.
He tried a bit of love bombing and I did allow myself to breathe a little-but I am still distancing myself. I am finding that having a better relationship with myself is a bit free-ing. Every time I maintain my boundary, I feel stronger, not stubborn.
Still have a long way to go, but I'm not going to try to control everything that happens now. I can only control myself.

What does love bombing look like?  Did you respond any?

FF

His love bombing took the form of him leaving me messages declaring how much he loves me, how he wants to grow old with me, etc. With all that said, the thing he DID NOT say was that he recognizes the levels to which he went when he was angry. He took no responsibility whatsoever for acting in an unacceptable manner. He also said he would do anything for me and hoped I would feel/do the same. And yes that included throwing my son's stuff out of the basement. Well. You know that THAT wasn't going to happen.
Right now I don't want to hear how sad, disappointed etc he feels. I can't go along with the idea  that I am the cause of all of his woes. As I learn that only I can control how I feel and act, I also know that only HE can control how he feels and acts, and if I don't like it, I have the option to stay behind my castle walls.

Consider the following advice only when you are having a "good day" and are full of confidence.

Perhaps watch a few monty python clips.  This is you getting up there to "taunt him a second time"  

Actually it is you offering a pathway to a better place... .knowing that you are still behind the castle walls.

Consider sending him a return message...

"Hey... it means to much to me that you will do anything to heal our relationship.  It gives me hope for the future.  I've got some thoughts on what that looks like that I would like to share with you.  How about you take me to that new place in town for dinner on Thursday night."

So... .big picture.  He says nice things and you accept... .you "expect" him to honor his words to you and you'll give him that chance.  

I would suggest very very little communication other than set up the date... .remember... you are busy with that project inside your castle.

so... if he doesn't want to take you out to dinner... .(ummm... .I think that says a lot there... .you don't need my help on that)

if he does... .clear your schedule before hand so you can be top of your game.  Get your hair done, nails... .this is a big deal and you are going to have a great time.  Remember... .your great time is not contingent on his action.

Anyway... .small talk... .enjoy dinner... .if he wants to get into relationship stuff say something like.

"I'm sure you would agree the ambiance is wonderful here... .lets enjoy conversation and dinner.  We can "move forward together" on our relationship over coffee and dessert.

Remember... .YOU are going to enjoy a wonderful dinner that he is providing you.  :)  

Mindset is important here.  He has stated he will do anything and you should expect that.  It will also help you have a more "real" shock when he flips out... .

When you get to dessert stay friendly.  Ask him if he is ready to discuss "going forward together" on the relationship?

If he wants to toss out all his ideas... .stop that quickly by expressing shock and alarm.  "I thought you offered to do anything and our date was for me to share my thoughts?"

I suspect you will be fine moving through this... especially if you can stay friendly and playful.  Perhaps a little footsie or something like that.

So... .you get to the time to speak... .



"Hey (use name), can you listen for a few minutes before responding? (will he say yes or just nod?)

" I felt violated by the video of the inside of my house being shown at work"  (don't say he did it... .he can own it or not... .it's not up to you to "toss it" at him.

"I'm not ever going to be able to experience that again.  I would like to start reconciling our relationship with a written covenant of understanding that my privacy is protected.  Can you help me with that to heal the violation of my privacy?"

Certainly it can be tweaked.  Shorter is better.  End it with a yes or no question... .vice open ended.

If his answer is no... thank him for dinner and wrap things up.

If he says yes... .thank him for dinner, set a time to discuss this further.  Call it a win and move on.

Big picture:  This is you taking charge of the r/s... .setting terms and letting him decide... .keeping him off balance... .and further clarifying your boundary.

Plus... .you get an awesome dinner and a night out... .all dolled up.

Thoughts?

FF

The big picture message is ":)o you want a serious relationship or do you want to run around my castle and bang coconuts?"

If he wants a serious relationship... very likely you both have serious work to do.  Make sure he goes first.

If he doesn't want a serious relationship... .express shock... disappointment... perhaps suggest he think about it a while.  Maybe he could take you out to dinner in a week and you can see where he's at... (you see where I'm going... .     )


Stay away from black and white thinking... .be pragmatic.  Ok... so I can't have him in my house anymore... .but weekly dinners work.  So... .if it works for you... .that's what matters.  Trust if it doesn't work for him, that he will let you know...

 |iiii

FF

I love that outline of how to deal with him. It helps that I know going in that he wants a serious r/s-he just wants it all his way.
I like that he is not going to have anyone else to blame for showing that video.
Your quote"Mindset is important here.  He has stated he will do anything and you should expect that.  It will also help you have a more "real" shock when he flips out... ." is spot on.
Mindset is key.
I will definitely set the night up as you suggested. And he does not come near my home until I gotten his written promise.
It is going to be a challenge for him to just listen, he constantly throws his two cents in when I am speaking or tosses whatever I say back to me-like a game of hot-potato. Difference now is, I'm no longer playing. I definitely need to grab the reins on this situation.
Chillamom, this is the sort of thing that might be helpful for you as well. We feel so horrible during our discards and recycles. It is empowering to take some of that control back for ourselves, regardless of the end result. I think it is all a process, and we are usually-at least I know I am-too afraid to take that leap. But I have to say-I like my castle walls.

Listen... .I totally realize that getting BPDish types to listen is hard.

Don't start talking about r/s until he says he is ready.  If he balks... agree with him that this been stressful and perhaps another night is better, get out your calendar and set another dinner date.

"assure" him that you are understanding, appreciative and will respect that he is not ready to listen at the moment.   "So... .unless you change your mind about listening, it would appear time to wrap up this lovely evening... ."

Let that hang...

If he says he will listen... .pivot and talk.

If not... .talk about how the dessert was amazing... .the vegetables were perfect.  If you are still in a good place ask him if that is a new shirt... .while patting his chest... .let your hand linger... .perhaps mention it is a shame to have to wrap up the evening so soon.

Yeah... .you are playing him.  Actually you are beating your hands on your helmet and telling him, through your actions... that he is a "silly person and should go away... .before you taunt him again"



FF

We'll handle the writing... .if we ever get there.

The covenant is for the relationship... .not his or yours. 

Are you guys particularly religious?  The point is to have something "bigger" than a promise.

You will both sign off that you "understand" the covenant "made between you".

This is not to be rushed... .

FF

Got it.
We are both spiritual people, believing in a higher power. I think this would resonate with him.
I won't rush it. I am taking my space now and breathing.

And yes, it should be about the r/s. Definitely gonna need some assistance with it!

Hi, I'm late to this topic... .and have an observation about the content of the extinction burst prior to this round of love bombing... .

Did he really tell you that if you "disrespect" him (aka have and enforce boundaries), he would rage at you and smear you at work?

And then not even acknowledge it, let alone apologize for it when he turned "good" and started love bombing? Other members here have a pwBPD who can acknowledge and apologize... .but even though they can go that far, cannot stop themselves the next time. Yours hasn't even done that!

Ditto gagirl, refer to the maya angelou quote.

Expect more of this from him.

GK,

There is some of that thinking in my "covenant" idea.  Essentially the pathway back inside her house... forces him to at least talk about the "rules" inside the house... .I will be really curious to see how he can verbalize what he did or get anywhere near an apology.

Only one way to find out.

Honestly... .the idea is not so much to "fix" him as it is to "force clarity" on how he sees allienoah's home and their relationship in general.

That clarity will be very helpful to allienoah... going forward... .as she provides clear boundaries about what she will and won't accept (participate in)... .as part of a relationship.

FF

@greykitty--yes I fully expect more of this behavior from him. difference is that now I am locked and loaded with how I plan on handling it. I think I am finally accepting that he will never change, and it is up to me to be responsible for My Behavior ONLY!


ff- I took the week to chill, kept contact at a minimum. Did set up that dinner tonight and plan on using your guidelines. It makes perfect sense at this point to toss it at him. And I am prepared to have the conversation about what I will/will not tolerate. But I will start off keeping it very light and fun. After all, it's a night out! And if I have to turn down a second cup of coffee and head home, so be it!

He wasn't thrilled about not picking me up at home, but I really don't want him there, and I don't want to be trapped in a car for an awkward ride home-or one filled with rage- if it doesn't work out.

Grey Kitty--btw-yes he actually did use the words that if I disrespect or upset him I could only expect these rages and all. In essence I am the reason for his tantrums. Um, I don't think so!

There are two aspects of this:

You are the reason for his tantrums... .as you said, no, not true.

He believes he has the right to throw them based on your behavior. That *IS* true. He does believe it and will do it.

I wouldn't be in a relationship with somebody who feels entitled to rage and throw tantrums at me.

What is your level of tolerance?

Call me naïve, I never looked at it like I am with someone who feels it is his right to throw tantrums at me.
That is really eye-opening and I hope I don't sound dumb for saying that.

Our dinner went well. We kept it light and had a nice time. I brought up the conversation about going forward in the relationship, about the issue with the basement. He basically felt he did the right thing. Clearly this is not acceptable. As far as the r/s goes, he said he wants to work on it, and I should "really think" about my behavior and start showing more commitment to the r/s first, -he needs to feel he is a priority.
Well at that point I didn't argue. I left it on the floor.
Finished my dessert, talked about the weather and sports. Went home. I didn't JADE at all. He called to see if I was safely home, asked me again what I planned to do regarding his presence in my house and I told him I'd write it out. He agreed to that and the night was over.
I am glad I stood my ground. I am not happy he didn't come near to apologizing for the video---and he went further to insult my son.

 |iiii  

Good job.  

I'd let this stew for a bit... .few days while you sort out what the writing looks like.

Here is the thing... .and a point for you to get straight (logically and emotionally) before addressing it with him.

He can "feel" or "think" you should do this and that all day long.  Please don't ever try to change that.

Make a big point about "his feelings being important" ... .as are yours.  They are equal.

separate issue... .his feeling have no impact whatsoever on his behavior or "rules" in your house.  He doesn't get a vote because it's your house.  He can ask all he wants to do this and that... .but he needs to be ok with hearing "no".

Remember... .you are dealing with an emotional toddler (in a sense).  A parenting theory that I've used is that when child is ok hearing "no" on and issue and being ok with it... .is likely an indication there is maturity enough to allow the child whatever they want.

picture this

"I want to go to Jimmy's house"

"no"

"waaaaaahh... .you never you're mean you suck... ."  (no go to Jimmy's house)

versus


"Ok... .but Mom... I'm bored... .what am I going to do... "  etc etc... . This is a child that "respects no" and likely a child that can handle going to Jimmy's house.

Thoughts?  

FF

I'm going to push your thinking even further.  Some people feel "obligated" to listen or "stay there" while someone throws a tantrum at them.

He gets to figure out what he feels he "has a right to"

You get to figure out what you "are obligated" or "want to" do.



Really... .really important that you let these thoughts sit with you and internalize them before "moving forward" in the relationship.  You can accept, reject, modify... .whatever.  The important thing is that you sort them out for you.

Can you share more detail on his reasoning for why he did the right thing by showing the video... .what we he trying to accomplish?  I can imagine several different wacky thought processes... very curious where his actually went.

FF

 :thought: :thought: :thought: He is asking you to "do the right thing by him for the relationship" according to his feelings/understandings.

You can turn that around and ask him to do the same thing. Consider asking him something like this:

"Will you 'really think' about your behavior, and show commitment to our relationship, by finding a way to resolve our conflicts without raging at me and throwing tantrums at me?"

NOTE: I'm not actually suggesting you stay it to him like that... .we have better communication tools to wrap that up in... .I'm just suggesting you consider the possibility and the idea!

@ formflier-
I am going to mull over the separation of theory about what "he has a right to do" and is justified vs what I am obligated or want to do. I am afraid that I am bowing to FOG when I do this. You see, usually it starts with a slight -real or perceived-that I commit. Sometimes it catches me off-guard and I reply with a retort or JADE. Then the tantrum begins as I "didn't own or take responsibility" for my action. Dissecting this process, I see that even if I do commit the error, I can't allow myself to get sucked in when he throws his disparaging comment at me. If I do, then on comes the tantrum.

His reasoning that he did nothing wrong by showing the video is that he was looking for validation from his coworkers that indeed, my son was making a "drug den" for himself. He also wanted everyone to know that he had cleaned the basement out in the fall and "look at this disrespect" shown. When I said it was a violation of my privacy, he retorted with "if there's nothing wrong with it you shouldn't feel your privacy was violated"
Bf said it looks like white trash down there-it doesn't. It is still clean -and to top it off, my son hasn't even been down there since he set it up!

Grey kitty I think that your suggestion is a very good way of tossing the ball back in his court. I honestly feel I am doing so much to make things right.

*mod*

I am locking this thread because it has reached its length limit. The post originator is welcomed to open a continuation thread on this topic.  Have a great day.