Taking Action

[formflier]

Allienoah,

I think you did "fine" on the phone call.  My hope is that he can find a way to respect your boundaries.  Your job is to communicate in a healthy way with him and give him opportunities to change... .and respect his decisions... either way.

There is some responsibility that you have to not "go there" to places where you know he will fail, given where he is at right now.

If some things begin to change, perhaps others will as well.

So... my first reaction is that you should stick with the house/privacy issue and not discuss ANY other issues with him... .

All he would need to know is that you are "shocked" and need time to think it through and you will let him know when you are ready to communicate about that.

No need to talk about games... .or JADE about a person coming into town or any of that.

Stick to the issue at hand.  If it gets solved to your satisfaction... .perhaps you move forward on others.

Presented another way "Why work on other issues when a "dealbreaker" is still broken?"

I am glad you remained calm and didn't yell.

Somewhat in his defense:  Staying on that phone that long with him will lead to threats and/or dysregulation.  That's a given at this point.  So... .not saying give him a pass on his threat... .but there is also no new news there either.

Focus on the home issue... .let everything else go (for now).

FF

[allienoah]

You're absolutely right. I gave him the opportunity to work himself up to threats. And yes I should have just stuck to the home issue. I took the bait admittedly when he brought up all the plans we had for the weekend before I "pulled my crap".
The issue right now is exactly that... .him respecting my boundaries. I do have a right to set them, maintain them. I have a right to discuss things with him and change my mind about MY HOUSE and MY FAMILY.
I just keep saying that to myself to reaffirm.
I am shocked over that whole video thing. He still thinks he did nothing wrong. 
I am not confident it will be solved to my satisfaction. I think I am in for more extreme extinction bursts and raging. You are completely correct though that I have to respect his decisions as well. That is only fair.
You can't force someone to respect you or agree with you, or even try to work with you.

[formflier]

I'm glad that you have the theory of the boundaries.  Even more important, you have the ability to "look back" and see where he "hooked you" or better yet... .where you "bit the hook".  He will try to hook you... that is a given (for now).

I think I am in for more extreme extinction bursts and raging. 

Keep working on mindset.  He is in for extinction bursts and raging.  You may be affected if you choose to participate.

I do get it that you can't totally isolate yourself and will likely see some lovely texts... .or listen to the start of a message that he leaves. 

I want to challenge you to remember  and think about "banging coconuts" when that happens.  It should put a smile on your face and keep you from "biting the hook".

I will give you license (and a dare... .  ... .bad FF)... .next time you "bite the hook"... hopefully you realize it while you are on the phone call.  After you realize it... .giggle out-loud and say "Now... go away before I taunt you a second time... ."

 

FF

[allienoah]

 FF
I am in! Interesting point you make too, regarding whether or not I actually participate in the extinction bursts.
You would think I was setting the cruelest boundary in the world with the way this has gone on. It really has been an eye-opener. I couldn't have validated, empathized or acknowledged more than I did... .clearly it doesn't matter. He is so very stuck in his feeling that I am disrespecting him and am ungrateful that it would take 100 Mac trucks to pull him out at this point.
And as you said, I will respect his decision. I know I have support to get me through.

[chillamom]

allienoah,
I trust you are going to the game with your friend and all…do you have a decent plan for the weekend to stay busy, because in my experience more time on his hands will = more and bigger and wilder extinction bursts, possibly interspersed with loving, pleading messages (which I always found the hardest to ignore, hence here I sit in another spin cycle).

Truth be told, I think formflier has the patience of a veritable saint, and I admire him and his wonderful ability to give such compassionate advice and convey it so well to others.  I wish I could be more like him!  I don't have anywhere near that level of tolerance - or maybe I have to admit to myself that I just don't feel as strongly as I used to about my pwBPD, but I am going to echo my therapist this morning when she told me : Why in hell would you be willing to make the compromises you are making?  To be such a negative role model for your children?  To live a double life?"  She kinda shocked me because she is usually very non-directive - but she metaphorically shook me by the shoulders and said "Chillamom, you have been very close to masochistic in your tolerance of his crap.  You don't have to live that way!"

Apparently (and I vaguely remember this from loong ago) normal relationships ARE NOT THIS MUCH EFFORT AND DON'T HURT.  Apparently, some people come home from work, hangout and cook dinner with their partner, eat with everyone all together, sit and chill or watch Netflix or do errands and enjoy warm summer nights TOGETHER. 

Apparently it's possible….and God bless those who have the patience to try and make it work with a "high conflict person" (or in my case a diagnosed NPD/BPD) but I just don't.  I hope you can maintain the integrity of those castle walls and ignore the coconuts being flung in your direction this weekend.  Enjoy that game!

[formflier]

  I don't have anywhere near that level of tolerance 

It's an interesting thought... .because as I look at major turning points in my r/s... .especially turning points that brought about positive change in my relationship, it was during times that I was "intolerant" of behavior... .or... more precisely... .found that behavior I had been tolerating was not longer tolerable.

That's a mouthful!   

The last big one... .where I pulled up the drawbridge to the castle and said it would never go down again was when I moved "my money" to "my accounts" and cut my wife off.

There is still some joint money from joint investments.

And she has her money.

The thing was the amount in question was relatively small... .roughly $300.  If there had been more, she likely would have taken it to give to her father (long story).

We had an agreement, from reconciling previous financial betrayals, that there would "never again" be money sent to her parents without both of us agreeing.  The agreement actually worked for a year or so.

Now... I don't make financial agreements with her.  It's that simple.

Yep... she banged coconuts and I played with my grail... .it's very nice!

FF

[allienoah]

Hey chillamom!
You are damn straight I am going to that game. And as it is pouring rain here, if the game is called I am meeting her for dinner in the city. I have a bbq at my boss's home tomorrow night and I will be taking care of myself and my home the other time. So yes I have enough to keep me busy. Bf has his kids this weekend so hopefully that will provide enough of a distraction to leave me be.
FF absolutely does have the patience of a saint!
FF you inspire me to think differently and consider things I normally would not think of. Your guidance has been so valuable.
Relationships should not be this hard. We should not have to constantly worry and be anxious. I realize all r/s are work and compromise, but this goes beyond. It IS like living a double life. Our loving romantic walking on eggshells way with the bf and the otherwise capable logical loving friends/mothers/workers. It is exhausting.

My castle walls are still up and fortified. He is now being very short with me and still trying to force his issue. Honestly I know what you are saying when you feel you don't know if you feel as strongly as you did about him. I am honestly feeling less and less attracted to him as he keeps this nonsense up.
The thing I worry about is if, as you suggested, he reverts to love bombing and I weaken. So I guess I have to be conscious that it could happen and prepare myself. My gut tells me this is going to get worse before it gets better though.

[chillamom]

allienoah, your gut is right.  I can tell you from years of bitter experience that inevitably resulted in me caving, sometimes after months and months.  I am facing the same thing now…how do I fortify my own castle walls so that he doesn't come through with another Trojan horse (or Trojan rabbit, I think, if we're keeping the Monty Python theme).  I know I absolutely crumble when he starts in manipulating me with guilt…my task now is to build my resistance, but it seems so cruel to cut him off completely…... I've been waffling about this FOR YEARS. 

Have a wonderful time despite the rain!

[GaGrl]

When you wrote that your bf said you could expect rages whenever you disrespect him (paraphrased, but that was the essence... .), I couldn't help but think of the Maya Angelou quote.

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

[formflier]

 but it seems so cruel to cut him off completely…...

Gotcha!

bassackwards thinking... . I'm sure your pwBPD has said this... and you bought it hook line and sinker

Get your thinking straight.

I have no idea what specific thing you "cut him off from"... .but I'm going to go out on a limb and say it doesn't matter.

It's your thing.

Therefore... .it's your vote

He gets to read the election results and he gets to feel however he wants to feel.

Said another way.

You have left a door open to the relationship... .a "pathway" if you will.  If he chooses to not walk that pathway... that's his choice  HE cut himself off... .not you.

Does this ring true in your example?  :)o the specifics matter?

FF

[chillamom]

formflier,

thanks for your reminder on the "bassackwards" thinking, .  Guilty as charged….in fact guilty of everything, which is why the pwBPD still had a firm hold on me.  Sadly for him, his disordered personality has resulted in him having no friends, having no relationship with his family (despite living with them) and basically antagonizing/alienating every person in his life, safe for long suffering, overly maternal (likely codependent) me.  When I have left before (one time for 6 months, one time for 5) he manipulated me back with pleas and tears and reminders that he has no one, and it's pretty much true.  I know that I am not responsible for his feelings, but at some level I feel I am (as he frequently reminds me that I "stole" his 20's from him and ruined his life, I'm much older than he is, and he wants children whereas I'm past that point and my own 3 kids will not tolerate his presence).

My task right now is to figure out how to release with grace, and understand what that might look like.  I don't think I'm strong enough to remain friends with him, but I also don't know how to "fortify my castle" and deal with the extinction bursts, which have been both brutally abusive and tearfully begging, in the past.

And the worst thing about it right now is that he is acting somewhat sensible and rational.  At least today.  Don't know why I'm so quick to forgive him.  Last week he was raging, projecting, screaming FU at me and blaming it all on me….and today he was saying "well, I haven't been abusive in a very long time."  Guess 5 days or so qualifies.

Anyway, if you have any ideas on how to get my bassackwards brain on a better path, I'd love to hear.  I respect your advice so much - and I know you live it each day, which is very very admirable.  Thanks.

[formflier]

  and I know you live it each day

It does get better... .my relationship/family is far more stable than a couple years ago... .

There have been ups and downs and I've learned a lot to smooth things out. 

I still get "caught" by circular arguments... .but it's been a while since I've gone around more than three times.

So... to those that say relationships shouldn't be this much work... .I agree.  The amount of work I have put into my relationship has actually gone down and the amount I've put into my self care has gone up.

I subtracted out all the work I used to do trying to convince her that she was banging coconuts and helping her look for her holy grail. 

Once I decided that my grail was very nice and stayed inside... .there was lots of extra work and effort I could redistribute.

Anyway... .I just had a thought.  Maybe your BF is a witch... .?

I wonder how we could tell?

FF

[chillamom]

Formflier... .wasn't drowning the test?

Anyway, thank you, and I'm glad your techniques have been so successful for your family.  I have no doubt they would be very useful,here as well, save for  the sheer fact that my daughters have already told me that there is no chance that they could ever accept my relationship with him. I stay with him, I lose a normal relationship with them .  Oh, yes... and also because I suspect he wants to cultivate a relationship with them so that he can have them bear his children... ,,this has been something  he noted before and I think he was serious.This person had been diagnosed with a lot more than BPD/NPD... .he is likely schizophrenic as well, according to several psychiatrists.  I'm dealing with a very volatile situation and unfortunately no amount of good communication and validation will change things in the long run.  It's time to go for real and no longer worry about how he reacts... .although a lot of why I have stayed has to do with fear of what he will ultimately do, either to himself, my kids, or myself.

[allienoah]

FF I would say you definitely have been successful at using the techniques, and you seem in a good place with yourself. You actually give me confidence with YOUR confidence.
Chillamom I have the same issue with my kids as you know. My r/s with them varies depending on how distant my bf seems to be.
Let me get this straight, your bf wants your children to bear HIS? Seriously?
I can imagine your situation is very volatile. I am slowly learning to not let bf's moods affect me.
I did enjoy my weekend and honestly I did speak with bf. I maintained my castle walls, though. He is identifying me as stubborn and all, but actually I will take that as a compliment because I am not folding.
He tried a bit of love bombing and I did allow myself to breathe a little-but I am still distancing myself. I am finding that having a better relationship with myself is a bit free-ing. Every time I maintain my boundary, I feel stronger, not stubborn.
Still have a long way to go, but I'm not going to try to control everything that happens now. I can only control myself.

[formflier]

What does love bombing look like?  Did you respond any?

FF

[allienoah]

His love bombing took the form of him leaving me messages declaring how much he loves me, how he wants to grow old with me, etc. With all that said, the thing he DID NOT say was that he recognizes the levels to which he went when he was angry. He took no responsibility whatsoever for acting in an unacceptable manner. He also said he would do anything for me and hoped I would feel/do the same. And yes that included throwing my son's stuff out of the basement. Well. You know that THAT wasn't going to happen.
Right now I don't want to hear how sad, disappointed etc he feels. I can't go along with the idea  that I am the cause of all of his woes. As I learn that only I can control how I feel and act, I also know that only HE can control how he feels and acts, and if I don't like it, I have the option to stay behind my castle walls.

[formflier]

Consider the following advice only when you are having a "good day" and are full of confidence.

Perhaps watch a few monty python clips.  This is you getting up there to "taunt him a second time"  

Actually it is you offering a pathway to a better place... .knowing that you are still behind the castle walls.

Consider sending him a return message...

"Hey... it means to much to me that you will do anything to heal our relationship.  It gives me hope for the future.  I've got some thoughts on what that looks like that I would like to share with you.  How about you take me to that new place in town for dinner on Thursday night."

So... .big picture.  He says nice things and you accept... .you "expect" him to honor his words to you and you'll give him that chance.  

I would suggest very very little communication other than set up the date... .remember... you are busy with that project inside your castle.

so... if he doesn't want to take you out to dinner... .(ummm... .I think that says a lot there... .you don't need my help on that)

if he does... .clear your schedule before hand so you can be top of your game.  Get your hair done, nails... .this is a big deal and you are going to have a great time.  Remember... .your great time is not contingent on his action.

Anyway... .small talk... .enjoy dinner... .if he wants to get into relationship stuff say something like.

"I'm sure you would agree the ambiance is wonderful here... .lets enjoy conversation and dinner.  We can "move forward together" on our relationship over coffee and dessert.

Remember... .YOU are going to enjoy a wonderful dinner that he is providing you.    

Mindset is important here.  He has stated he will do anything and you should expect that.  It will also help you have a more "real" shock when he flips out... .

When you get to dessert stay friendly.  Ask him if he is ready to discuss "going forward together" on the relationship?

If he wants to toss out all his ideas... .stop that quickly by expressing shock and alarm.  "I thought you offered to do anything and our date was for me to share my thoughts?"

I suspect you will be fine moving through this... especially if you can stay friendly and playful.  Perhaps a little footsie or something like that.

So... .you get to the time to speak... .



"Hey (use name), can you listen for a few minutes before responding? (will he say yes or just nod?)

" I felt violated by the video of the inside of my house being shown at work"  (don't say he did it... .he can own it or not... .it's not up to you to "toss it" at him.

"I'm not ever going to be able to experience that again.  I would like to start reconciling our relationship with a written covenant of understanding that my privacy is protected.  Can you help me with that to heal the violation of my privacy?"

Certainly it can be tweaked.  Shorter is better.  End it with a yes or no question... .vice open ended.

If his answer is no... thank him for dinner and wrap things up.

If he says yes... .thank him for dinner, set a time to discuss this further.  Call it a win and move on.

Big picture:  This is you taking charge of the r/s... .setting terms and letting him decide... .keeping him off balance... .and further clarifying your boundary.

Plus... .you get an awesome dinner and a night out... .all dolled up.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

The big picture message is ":)o you want a serious relationship or do you want to run around my castle and bang coconuts?"

If he wants a serious relationship... very likely you both have serious work to do.  Make sure he goes first.

If he doesn't want a serious relationship... .express shock... disappointment... perhaps suggest he think about it a while.  Maybe he could take you out to dinner in a week and you can see where he's at... (you see where I'm going... .     )


Stay away from black and white thinking... .be pragmatic.  Ok... so I can't have him in my house anymore... .but weekly dinners work.  So... .if it works for you... .that's what matters.  Trust if it doesn't work for him, that he will let you know...

 

FF

[allienoah]

I love that outline of how to deal with him. It helps that I know going in that he wants a serious r/s-he just wants it all his way.
I like that he is not going to have anyone else to blame for showing that video.
Your quote"Mindset is important here.  He has stated he will do anything and you should expect that.  It will also help you have a more "real" shock when he flips out... ." is spot on.
Mindset is key.
I will definitely set the night up as you suggested. And he does not come near my home until I gotten his written promise.
It is going to be a challenge for him to just listen, he constantly throws his two cents in when I am speaking or tosses whatever I say back to me-like a game of hot-potato. Difference now is, I'm no longer playing. I definitely need to grab the reins on this situation.
Chillamom, this is the sort of thing that might be helpful for you as well. We feel so horrible during our discards and recycles. It is empowering to take some of that control back for ourselves, regardless of the end result. I think it is all a process, and we are usually-at least I know I am-too afraid to take that leap. But I have to say-I like my castle walls.

[formflier]

Listen... .I totally realize that getting BPDish types to listen is hard.

Don't start talking about r/s until he says he is ready.  If he balks... agree with him that this been stressful and perhaps another night is better, get out your calendar and set another dinner date.

"assure" him that you are understanding, appreciative and will respect that he is not ready to listen at the moment.   "So... .unless you change your mind about listening, it would appear time to wrap up this lovely evening... ."

Let that hang...

If he says he will listen... .pivot and talk.

If not... .talk about how the dessert was amazing... .the vegetables were perfect.  If you are still in a good place ask him if that is a new shirt... .while patting his chest... .let your hand linger... .perhaps mention it is a shame to have to wrap up the evening so soon.

Yeah... .you are playing him.  Actually you are beating your hands on your helmet and telling him, through your actions... that he is a "silly person and should go away... .before you taunt him again"



FF

[formflier]

  And he does not come near my home until I gotten his written promise.

We'll handle the writing... .if we ever get there.

The covenant is for the relationship... .not his or yours. 

Are you guys particularly religious?  The point is to have something "bigger" than a promise.

You will both sign off that you "understand" the covenant "made between you".

This is not to be rushed... .

FF

[allienoah]

Got it.
We are both spiritual people, believing in a higher power. I think this would resonate with him.
I won't rush it. I am taking my space now and breathing.

And yes, it should be about the r/s. Definitely gonna need some assistance with it!

[Grey Kitty]

Hi, I'm late to this topic... .and have an observation about the content of the extinction burst prior to this round of love bombing... .

Did he really tell you that if you "disrespect" him (aka have and enforce boundaries), he would rage at you and smear you at work?

And then not even acknowledge it, let alone apologize for it when he turned "good" and started love bombing? Other members here have a pwBPD who can acknowledge and apologize... .but even though they can go that far, cannot stop themselves the next time. Yours hasn't even done that!

Ditto gagirl, refer to the maya angelou quote.

Expect more of this from him.

[formflier]

GK,

There is some of that thinking in my "covenant" idea.  Essentially the pathway back inside her house... forces him to at least talk about the "rules" inside the house... .I will be really curious to see how he can verbalize what he did or get anywhere near an apology.

Only one way to find out.

Honestly... .the idea is not so much to "fix" him as it is to "force clarity" on how he sees allienoah's home and their relationship in general.

That clarity will be very helpful to allienoah... going forward... .as she provides clear boundaries about what she will and won't accept (participate in)... .as part of a relationship.

FF

[allienoah]

@greykitty--yes I fully expect more of this behavior from him. difference is that now I am locked and loaded with how I plan on handling it. I think I am finally accepting that he will never change, and it is up to me to be responsible for My Behavior ONLY!


ff- I took the week to chill, kept contact at a minimum. Did set up that dinner tonight and plan on using your guidelines. It makes perfect sense at this point to toss it at him. And I am prepared to have the conversation about what I will/will not tolerate. But I will start off keeping it very light and fun. After all, it's a night out! And if I have to turn down a second cup of coffee and head home, so be it!

He wasn't thrilled about not picking me up at home, but I really don't want him there, and I don't want to be trapped in a car for an awkward ride home-or one filled with rage- if it doesn't work out.

[allienoah]

Grey Kitty--btw-yes he actually did use the words that if I disrespect or upset him I could only expect these rages and all. In essence I am the reason for his tantrums. Um, I don't think so!

[Grey Kitty]

Grey Kitty--btw-yes he actually did use the words that if I disrespect or upset him I could only expect these rages and all. In essence I am the reason for his tantrums. Um, I don't think so!

There are two aspects of this:

You are the reason for his tantrums... .as you said, no, not true.

He believes he has the right to throw them based on your behavior. That *IS* true. He does believe it and will do it.

I wouldn't be in a relationship with somebody who feels entitled to rage and throw tantrums at me.

What is your level of tolerance?

[allienoah]

Call me naïve, I never looked at it like I am with someone who feels it is his right to throw tantrums at me.
That is really eye-opening and I hope I don't sound dumb for saying that.

Our dinner went well. We kept it light and had a nice time. I brought up the conversation about going forward in the relationship, about the issue with the basement. He basically felt he did the right thing. Clearly this is not acceptable. As far as the r/s goes, he said he wants to work on it, and I should "really think" about my behavior and start showing more commitment to the r/s first, -he needs to feel he is a priority.
Well at that point I didn't argue. I left it on the floor.
Finished my dessert, talked about the weather and sports. Went home. I didn't JADE at all. He called to see if I was safely home, asked me again what I planned to do regarding his presence in my house and I told him I'd write it out. He agreed to that and the night was over.
I am glad I stood my ground. I am not happy he didn't come near to apologizing for the video---and he went further to insult my son.

[formflier]

   

Good job.  

I'd let this stew for a bit... .few days while you sort out what the writing looks like.

Here is the thing... .and a point for you to get straight (logically and emotionally) before addressing it with him.

He can "feel" or "think" you should do this and that all day long.  Please don't ever try to change that.

Make a big point about "his feelings being important" ... .as are yours.  They are equal.

separate issue... .his feeling have no impact whatsoever on his behavior or "rules" in your house.  He doesn't get a vote because it's your house.  He can ask all he wants to do this and that... .but he needs to be ok with hearing "no".

Remember... .you are dealing with an emotional toddler (in a sense).  A parenting theory that I've used is that when child is ok hearing "no" on and issue and being ok with it... .is likely an indication there is maturity enough to allow the child whatever they want.

picture this

"I want to go to Jimmy's house"

"no"

"waaaaaahh... .you never you're mean you suck... ."  (no go to Jimmy's house)

versus


"Ok... .but Mom... I'm bored... .what am I going to do... "  etc etc... . This is a child that "respects no" and likely a child that can handle going to Jimmy's house.

Thoughts?  

FF

[formflier]

Call me naïve, I never looked at it like I am with someone who feels it is his right to throw tantrums at me.
That is really eye-opening and I hope I don't sound dumb for saying that.

I'm going to push your thinking even further.  Some people feel "obligated" to listen or "stay there" while someone throws a tantrum at them.

He gets to figure out what he feels he "has a right to"

You get to figure out what you "are obligated" or "want to" do.



Really... .really important that you let these thoughts sit with you and internalize them before "moving forward" in the relationship.  You can accept, reject, modify... .whatever.  The important thing is that you sort them out for you.

Can you share more detail on his reasoning for why he did the right thing by showing the video... .what we he trying to accomplish?  I can imagine several different wacky thought processes... very curious where his actually went.

FF