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I'm not asking for anyone to tell me what I should do though I am struggling with it. I am asking what was the straw at which you said the verbal and physical abuse was too much to continue this way and you called it quits.

Thanks,
5min

Only you can answer that question for you.  I'm assuming you are saying/asking "enough is enough" meaning you call it quits on the relationship.

That's something for you to reflect on for a long time.

"In the meantime" I would suggest that you say "enough is enough" to abusive behavior.  That's easy for me to recommend that YOU no longer put up with that.  Realizing that your decision may "trigger" a decision by the other party to essentially say this r/s "is no longer working for me" and they may leave.

The extra benefit of no longer "participating" in the abuse is that you will be able to think and reflect more clearly on your relationship, without a "fresh" wound... or argument swaying you one way or another.

Can you share a recent example of what happened and what you did?  Perhaps we can help you find a better way.

Hang in there.

FF

5Min - If your life is like mine, there might not be a single proverbial straw that breaks your back. But, I think of myself as surveying the landscape.  I have started tallying up what I know about right now. Then I have started adding one, three, five, ten years to what "now" would look like.  I think I've studied enough to know what has been tried, what has failed, what is so unlikely to succeed that it counts a failed.  I think I can tell the future enough to know that I can't fix, change, or control important parts of it.  And I don't think I can survive it. I certainly can't say I'll thrive with the passing of years in the same situation.

If you are suffering physical abuse, I would say that's the end right there.  Verbal and emotional abuse might change with awareness and training, but, at least for me, I have to not hold much hope for much change.  I find that my uBPDw is not atypical for BPD, and they are amazingly predictable in some regards.  She will feel responsibility or remorse for a few days, and then the projection will re-emerge and it won't be her "fault."  Therefore, the emotional chaos - the blame, projection, shame, unahppiness - will be constant companions in our marriage.

I find that I'm quitting by small degrees, not in one fell swoop after which I say "I quit."  Some people do have an "ah-ha!" moment and then they know.  For me though, it is a gradual realization, and even more gradual response by me.  One baby step after another I find that I am right when I follow my gut. 

I am asking what was your threshold. I am part of the problem in that I am a procrastinator and avoider. That comes from my childhood and am working on it. It is not every time there is an episode, but when it escalates, the abuse consists of hitting me in the head with whatever is in her hand, kicking, slapping, hair pulling, clawing, etc. Sometimes she goes off slapping herself. I can not physically leave when that happens or she goes totally berserk. It does not matter what I say, she twist it into what she wants. Every problem in her life (job, kids, etc) is my fault. Every movie, book, etc is twisted into how the characters are so much better a man/husband/father than I. There is the blowing up my phone all day and the continual coloring me as the demon. I see no hope.

Is it your responsibility that she NOT go bezerk?

And... .since it doesn't matter what you say... (which I believe is likely)... .why say anything?  Seriously... .leave the situation and let the "fuel" burn itself out.

She will be pissed and berserk... .and you will be blissfully unaware... .somewhere else.

After she begins to understand that her shenanigans no longer work... the "temp" will likely start coming down.

Ok... .how long has the slapping... hair pulling... etc etc been going on?  How many times has that happened?

What have you done about it so far?  Results of that?

Have you called 911 or threatened to call?

   

FF

We're all different.  I think unhealthy partners might sense what they can and can't get away with. 

I seem to put up with rejection, silent treatment, frustration, projection, isolation, withholding sex, and so forth.  I know some guys wouldn't put up with that treatment.  The very minute I got hit in the head, hair pulled, or hit - I'd be calling the police, getting a restraining order, and changing the locks.  Maybe that's for everyone's good that I don't get physical abuse because I might retaliate, against my better judgement.

Your call.

 
SamwizeGamgee made an incredibly important point.  A point that I think could be expanded on a bit.

I'm certain (agreeing with Sam) that our partners get a sense from us of what they can get away with.  I would expand and say that we likely "trained" them on what was and wasn't ok based on our reactions and actions.

I'm not suggesting we set out to train them, but... .think about it... .we are treated the way we are treated, by and large, because of what we "allow" in our life.  I get it that our partners play a role in this, but I would submit that we play a larger role. 

One of my "big picture" goals for you is to be reflective about the life and relationship you want to have and then go about making choices to get that relationship.  And... .if that means someone you care about goes berserk... .that you understand that is their choice and not YOUR responsibility.

FF

Hey 5min, You can't go on like this, needless to say.  :)o you have any close friends or family members with whom you can confide?  It's critical to avoid isolation, because without the support of others you can lose all perspective.  Also, you might want to call your local domestic violence hotline to find out what sort of help they might offer.

My concern is the potential for things escalating, at which point you might find yourself under arrest.  Suggest you keep an overnight bag in your car so you are ready to leave if necessary.  I spent many a night at the local motel, so I've been down this path before you.

LuckyJim

As others have said its down to the individual. For me I sat on the fence waiting for the one big blow up that would give me an excuse to leave and be justified. I finally realised I wouldn't get it. There where lots of little digs and constant put downs but nothing that you could point to and say that's the one. I had to look at the big picture and see that when put together all the little things added up to more than enough for me to call it a day.

I think this is half the problem that a lot of us face. We feel we need to justify breaking up with an undeniable event. But even those we wash over and can be talked around and made to feel guilty. The "a real man would... ." statement would always make me doubt myself. In the end you have to decide whether you want to carry on with how things are or make a clean break.

I too have spent many a night in a hotel, after I decided to exit conflict. 

I can luckily say that I haven't had to do that in a  long time.  Perhaps 1.5 years... maybe 2.  I'd have to look.

My wife hated it... mocked me... .suggested I get an apartment to save money if I was going to "run away"... ."hide"... .etc etc

I want to second what Lucky Jim said... .this can't go on.  I think you get that... .otherwise you wouldn't be here looking for answers.

I would also say... .just as strenuously that you shouldn't change anything for a week or two.  There are many issues to think through... start to finish.

It's not just enough to bring in others to "shine light" on the situation (which you should do)... .but you need to be ready for that to be "inflaming"... .and may result in you leaving the house for the first time or calling the police for first time or... .(fill in blank).

Planning is critical...

FF

Formflier, I get what you are saying. It is not my responsibility to keep her from going berserk. It is better for everyone if she does not. I have spent nights in hotels and away. In everyone one of those instances, she was violent before and/or during my exit.

I've tried boundaries and retraining but those all result in escalation.

Lucky Jim and  Sam, I do worry about it escalating to the point of the authorities being involved. Based on advice here, I have photos, audio, and actual items broken over my head from her outbursts. I have a running list of events and details over the last few years. I keep all of that away from the house. And I worry about my reaction to her outbursts.

When she is not raging, I feel empathy and sadness for the childhood and 1st marriage that contributed to her BPD. In those moments, I love her. When she is acting out, I feel nothing more than a desire for her to be out of my life. I am on an antidepressant, which for me has removed the anxiety and cleared my head to see the situation for what it is. Many of us feel that when things are bad they are extremely bad and then when they are good that they are incredibly good. What I see now through clearer eyes is that the bad is so extreme that some semblance of normal (read what is expected from a civilized person) is so different from the bad that it feels incredibly good. But in essence, it is what should be normal. That normal is what I picture but I have no hope of living it in this relationship.

Can you go into great detail and describe one of these instances.  Give some backstory about the "issue" and then he said she said... .he did she did up until you left.  Also describe how things were when you came back.

I certainly don't want to say anything that would resemble a judgement or specific advice about this situation without understanding how you got to the point of getting something smashed on you... .or getting smacked... .or whatever happened.
 
In your example... .please point out when your boundaries were violate and what actions you perceived to be boundary enforcement.

Hang in there man... .you have found a good place that can help you sort this out.

FF

Quick and to the point, the “no-go checklist”.
#1.) unfaithfulness, audultry, sexual betrayal.
#2.) physical violence, bodily harm, or direct credible threat therof.
#3.) direct, and complete financial sabotage, of family security assets, with prejudice.
#4.) sabotage, attack of professional career, ie’ an attack, on my career out of spite, with willful destructive intentions.

Yeah, that would seal the deal, end game.

5min,
to answer your original question... .
it wasn't the first time she hit me
nor the second
it wasn't the first time she bit me
nor the second
it wasn't the first time she had me arrested on false accusations
nor the second
it wasn't when i found out the charges, though dismissed, were forever on my record for inexpensive background services
it wasn't when i went bankrupt because my entire life was consumed with trying to cope, trying to fix her
it wasn't when I could not see a therapist because she hounded and berated me and demanded to know what was discussed
it wasn't the first time i made up my mind to leave
nor the second
it wasn't when she held a knife at my chest and i pleaded with her to do it
it wasn't the 900th time she or the 2000th time she spun my head n circles accusing, gas-lighting, etc.
it wasn't the first time I yelled so loudly back at her the walls shook
nor the second
it wasn't after i lost custody of my son and he went back to my first wife, only to flunk out of high school after being an honor student
it wasn't when my two daughters refused to see me anymore
it wasn't when she talked about purchasing a firearm - but that WAS the first time I settled absolutely in my mind there was a circumstance in which I would leave absolutely without question
it wasn't the first time she took a bottle of pills
or the second
it wasn't when she was committed to the psych ward only to talk her way out in one week when she had been committed for a minimum of 30 days.
it wasn't when she came home then, and announced she was not going to attend the DBT classes - but that WAS when I went dead inside, and gave up hope.
it was about 8 or 9 months after that... .
since then, it took two years to forgive her, and it has taken me 5+ years to get to the point that i think i have given myself permission to forgive myself for hurting my children

take care of yourself, for the sake of everyone you love, for them, and for you - the two reasons are inseparable - i could not think straight enough to follow my own moral compass because i did not value or love myself enough, and the result was my actions hurt those i loved most dear, my children, and my BPD wife - her and i were destructive to each other.

You sound just like me!  I put up with all that stuff and some.

Counselor asked me to start journaling. Seeing it in print really made me open my eyes. Early this year there was a situation with our family camping. Kids and I inside tent, the BPDh raging outside the tent. Felt like he was a bear and we were inside about to get eaten. I told him to find a seasonal job that offered room/board (he's a chef, this is doable).

He was gone all summer with occasional time home (1-2 days at a time). There was an obvious relief in the home, like the black negativity was gone, and only came back when he returned.

Final straw though, was about 3 mos into the 'break'. He went into a rage that was more intense than we'd ever seen. He said some things that were so hateful and vile to me, that I just could not get past. He left again for 3 weeks travel, when he returned it was even worse. Then one night he just calmly said, "I hate you. I hate those kids." He was not in a rage. He did not have his 'mean face' on, he just calmly said it. I thanked him, because he gave me the final nail on the proverbial coffin I needed... .

And that my friend, was my 'had enough'.

I have a quote typed out and taped to my monitor, "You teach people how to treat you, by what you will and won't accept."

Oh my gosh Lucky Jim, I was looking thru photos on my camera (it holds a TON, so there is like a year on there). It was crazy how many photos I have of my kids in hotel rooms! It hit me like a ton of bricks. Our constant escape... .in the past year, to hotels!

For me, after being let down for the umpteenth time.  He always asked to meet up, never me (long distance friends) and as the dates approached he would pull the plug on it.  He had no awareness of how much arranging I had to do to make plans to see him (plan to stay with relatives, 2 hour drive etc etc) and no apology every came forward.  I warned him if he done it to me again that would be the last time I would speak to him.  We had a huge fallout over it in March as I was so angry he had done it again, harsh words were said on both sides and we haven't spoken since.

Edited to say, my pwBPD and I were just friends but the push/pull, ST and manipulative behaviour became tiresome after 18 months of it.  I certainly would not put up with any physical abuse where I was run from my own home for fear of what may happen and have to crash in a hotel.  Life is too short to be living in fear like that.  That's not living, and barely existing.

5min, you are in a good place and with friends here.  I am going through the exact same thing at this time.  I seem to have a little less physical abuse than others.  I did experience some pushing, shoving, trips on the stairs until one night it got bad and D16 called the cops.  She ended up getting arrested.  Charges dismissed but yes they are still on her record and she states I am 100% to blame and should have been in jail too.  She's been careful since, although she has pushed and lightly punched me as well as blocked me in a room, I think she knows 1 more call to the cops and she's in real trouble.

I would have thought that to be "the straw" but no, much like many on here its just little drips at a time.  My uBPDw is extremely verbally abusive and I find that harder to deal with. I am constantly called a loser, worthless, terribly father, piece of s--t because she has to work part time to send D16 to private school... .drip

She's constantly threatened to get me fired (of course this goes against her notion that I need to provide and its extremely important to keep health care for D10). drip

She's alienated my parents who have helped us in immeasurable ways both financially and with the kids over the years.  My mother basically called her out on some of her behaviors a month ago and she hasn't been able to see the kids since. drip

Now she refuses to give me any money from her paychecks saying that she already earns her keep because she takes care of the kids and groceries...   I've pleaded with her that we need her paychecks to pay for her car, school, utilities... .  Says I need to take her to court if I want any of her money... .drip, drip, drip.

I could go on, there are so many more bits and pieces.  I find that during my moments of clarity I step back and go what the heck am I thinking?  Then life continues and I have to get the kids to the bus, dogs need to be fed... .blah blah life gets in the way and I am left living in a miserable existence.

She often hides behind the kids needs.  Can't cut off the debit/credit cards because the kids need things... of course then I see a bunch of amazon purchases... .

Only you can decide when you've had enough though.  The only thing I am consistant with in my life is how much I waiver on that decision.  I've been threatend with a scorched earth divorce, yet the only way to stay married in her eyes is if I go back to being her servant.  I imagine many on here have come out of the FOG only to have their r/s w/BPD decide that the relationship no longer works for them.  You then get the really crazy behaviour because the ending of a relationship sort of forces them to confront some of their fears... .which never ends well.

Take care of yourself, and please find time to see an attorney, you have far more legal protections available to you that you may think, or that she will lead you to believe.

Good luck,
-Oz

@ morningagain: Thanks for your moving post, much of which was quite familiar to me.


Right, the foundation for my recovery has been learning to love and accept myself, just the way I am.  I lost myself for a while there in the throes of marriage to my BPDxW.

@ 5 min:


Agree, the nightmare becomes the new normal, and the brief intervals of peace seem like nirvana, yet it doesn't take long for the other shoe to drop again.  As I said above:


Are you working on an exit strategy?  The abuse you describe is, to me, unacceptable.

LuckyJim

Ok, that “struck a nerve”…

I really do not have anyone to talk to... .to "vent to"... .other than my co-worker and this website, we (my co-worker) have known each other for many years, in the service, and now in civilian career(s)... .and what you said in your post, is what I hear (above quote)... .I also hear, "you’re a better man for putting up with that, I could not do that"... ."life is too short man".

As far as “physical”… there has been face slapping, pushing, and aggressive “overtures”… ie’ wine thrown into my face, several times… then she complains about the stains it made on the back porch door… cigarette smoke blown into my face, things smashed and thrown into the trash bin… blocking entrance/exit from a space, keeping me awake, as in coming into my “retreat space” and continuing to rage… this is what I can remember… in your face stuff, no respect for “ok I’ve had enough, you need to back off now”…

I have of late been comparing / a compilation of sorts of my memories, of the past seven years, and also what I can remember about our "dating" all the way back to two thousand and seven, .and then I heard a person on the radio this morning say (a Winston Churchill quote no less), ."‘The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see." (?)... .wow!... .again… “that struck a nerve”.

I think I should start “journaling” also… I did this in my first marriage, and it did help me in the end 3rd quarter of the 21 year tour to keep moving forward with that divorce, one of the toughest decision I have ever had to make in my life.

I ramble… according to her (u/BPD wife) behavioral history, and what I have thus far experienced, factoring her age (-51), and what I have seen (learned) about her family history, and (watched for myself) her families personality construct / behaviors… in real time (last Thanksgiving was pretty interesting)… as I look into the future, why would it ever get any better.

Yeah, another, "if you don't learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"... .I have been calling what I go through the "que", the constant cycle of push/pull, cycle up, then cycle right back down again, and each time I (we) go down, the "G" forces make it harder each time to "come back up"... .“pull myself back up”;… and then to accept her cycle up as everything is ok again, nothing to see hear, this never happened, and I should just forget what happened, yet again (and again and again and again), knowing full well, she will cycle back down again in 7- 10 days… as in there has been a freight train load of mean and downright despicable things said, and as well actions over the years, and I too have joined in at times in a vain attempt to stand up for myself (defend) - (JADE)-my own version of “extermination burst”.

My memory has begun to fade a bit, I cannot remember everything, but I do remember the worst of the worst, I am kind of numb now, as in this is the normal, the “norm”, this is the way it’s going to be, and there is nothing I can do to fix it, or change her (reality)… Have I trained her to treat me like this, I say no, she was like this before I married her, it was hidden, and I do marvel at how she managed to do this for a few years… but I was too naive to understand at the time, despite just ending a previous dysfunctional marriage that lasted 20+ years…

Today marks our "one week anniversary" of yet another bout of the “silent treatment” (ST)... .what was the fight about this time, what could I have done to prevent, I really don’t even care anymore… I am tired, I am tired of raising the ship form the bottom of the harbor, just to have it sink yet again.

Let’s make a checklists (!):
*has she ever thrown her wedding dress away, yes, several times.
*has she ever rippe dup our wedding photos, and then DEMAND I replaced then, yes, several times.
*has she ever thrown her wedding bands into the ash tray, or at me, or into the trash bin, yes, several times.
*has she ever told me that she loathes me, hates me, yes, several times.
*has she ever told me that she hates my special needs (autism) Son, yes, several times.
*has she ever acted out, as a mean drunk, all out destruct mode, yes, several times.
*does she slam doors, yes, all the time.
*does she demand that I sleep on the couch, yes, multiple/many/uncountable times.
*does she profess to hate my own mother, yes, multiple/many/uncountable times.
*does she invalidate me, dysregulate to me, and run me down emotionally, yes, multiple/many/uncountable times.
*am I "moderately" depressed, yes (took the test, and am now on the BPDfam pie chart), multiple/many/uncountable times.

ok, that's enough for now... .this is starting to get to me... .usually I am pretty good at keeping my head "above the water"... .and fighting off depression, and the anxiety that my (our) predicament brings to my (our) everyday lives, but sometimes, it feels like a tooth ache in the extreme cold weather (dull pounding in my head and heart), as in bad, and like creeping cold weather, it slowly invades my mind, my inner self (protected), and even settles into my bones (so to speak)… and I cannot shake it…

Yeah, I got a bag packed, for both my Son and me, .Sometimes I just grab him and go… like to know how many miles I have put on my vehicle “escaping” her rage, and wrath… Utterly exhausting, disruptive, and numbing to have to keep on doing this.

It does get old… then what? 

Hey Red5, It's exhausting to pull oneself up off the floor again after another round of abuse.  You don't deserve to be treated that way.

I will ask you the same question I asked 5min: are you working on an exit strategy?  Many people of this Board fear the unknown, with good reason, but I've discovered that the unknown is where greater happiness can be found.

LJ

@Luck Jim,
Yes, I have, well had (exit strategy)... .I have gone through all the obligatory "gone to see a lawyer", to even a "trail" separation a year into the marriage + marriage counseling while she was living back in her own home (six months). She has (countless times) packed up her gear, and threatened to leave since that period, to the point I just say (think) whatever... .this has not happened in a while, although she did start the planning process to moving with her mother, or sister, that blow out was about 6-8 weeks ago now.

But this last year, she has resigned her job, and sold her home due to illness, so now she is completely dependent on me, and of course, I have the obligation to take care of her (FOG)... .even though she cannot stop her behaviors, which are mostly towards my Son, then I intervene to protect him from her, this is the solid, most used igniter... .she just cannot seem to give that up, take it easy, and just be happy, .no, she has to act like a total "Ms. Trunchbull"... .if its not that, its something else, ie' my mother is coming to visit, her mother is driving her crazy, her ex-boss this, her sister that... .well, I had a plan, and I have been pushed right up and just over the line to executing it (Wing Attack Plan R)... .but since the best solution/decision was for her to move back into her own home, and continue with her career, file for separation, and then await a year to divorce, has been dismantled, .I (we) really do not have a plan (exit), unless she has come up with something since she has holed herself up in the office since last Wednesday night... .we have not spoken a word since... .time will tell, .and the cycle continues ... .for now.

As for fear of the unknown, I am good, as I have divorced before, been there, and done that, .so has she, .and I was a single father on my own with my teenagers at that time, for five years, completely independent... .so the only real fear I have is financial and also medical insurance for her... .as she is not working now, and I am the sole bread winner/insurance... .and as she sold her former home. No, I can take care of myself, and my Son, I don't need her. But she needs me right now... .one would think you would be nice to the "milk man" eh'... .

I know that sounds cold, but I think she is miserable too.

@ 5min, what a thread you have started, as you (and I) can see, & read, there is a lot of pain here.
Calling it quits is really a journey, a long and drawn out decision for most, different personalities have different thresholds, and this threshold may increase, or else decrease depending/resulting on life experiences, events, and or levels of personal responsibilities, ie' having children, a home, a life, a career, all hard fought for, and hard worked for etc;
I guess it’s like this, you will know when it’s time to go, time to exit, time to escape.
A decision only you can make, ever hear the saying, “no stone left unturned”… when all leavers, switches, and expedient emergency procedures have been initiated/executed, in order to attempt to “fix” and or correct the problems, but to no avail, then you will have to make the decision to either stay, or make a move in another direction.
Whatever that direction may be, only you can determine, using the best knowledge you have at that time.
v/r Red5

Thanks to everyone for the posts. Your stories, experiences, and lesson are all validating and medicating.

I do keep a change of clothes at work so that is sort of my packed bag but not really sufficient. When I do pack to leave, it escalates. I will have to subtly carry things to work to have a sufficient bag. I also keep an extensive record of events, photos, audio files, broken items, etc from the rages. That has been mostly to have proof should I get arrested from one of her outbursts. It will be beneficial should I make the decision to end the marriage. I have not talked to an attorney or the authorities. I need to find one who can deal with such conflict. So, I do not have an exit strategy, but desperately need one.

Red5, the drip, drip, drip rings so true. I find with each event, I am worn that much more down, recover less quickly, and have less hope for things to get better. My BPDw has also threatened the scorched earth divorce. She has alienated my family to the point we have not spoken in years. I have spent many a night on the couch or a hotel when she throws me out. She always blows up my phone and demands I come back with some plan to "fix this". I might as well have lost my car keys in the back yard but look for them in the living room because there is a light there. I can not fix her. She is not capable of functioning alone and has attempted suicide for which I get the FOG of that. From her rages and my feelings, I now understand some of the extreme decisions people make to alleviate such stress. I don't agree with all of them (drugs, suicide, retaliatory violence) but I really get it and empathize with the pain and need for relief.

This mornings rage started over not checking to see the curling iron was on when I plugged it in for her and not typing a text as she dictated at Mach 2. Mind you, I made it a point to help her get ready to be on time at the expense of being late myself. But then it is all about them and why we do not do more. I agree, life is too short to live this way. And Lucky Jim is right, "the unknown is where greater happiness ca be found. "

Hey 5min, I used to say that my BPDxW's motto was "Never Enough"!  It's true, in the sense that no matter how much effort I put into something, she always wanted more.  Many here have described this dynamic as the BPD "black hole."  One could say that they have a "hole in the soul" that can never be filled for long by material things or helpful action.  It's an inner emptiness that keeps returning, sad to say, for the pwBPD.

LJ

I'm with you (us) all on this.  Thanks for everyone's comments.  I was thinking about the "drip by drip" example.  

I started to look for the "breaking point" in my marriage and I think I see it as a balance-scale.  Let's say on the "staying side" there's a stack of reasons to stay married, some reasons are large and heavy, some are light and insignificant in the big picture.  Some things should be there, like financial responsibility, presence in the kids' life.  Some things should not be there like fear of change, lack of confidence in myself in the future.  On the other side of the balance-scale are the thing I put there as reasons to leave.  Freedom, peace of mind, better sleep, being able to be a man and free of constant undermining in my own house are all things sitting on that end of the scale and tipping me towards leaving and ending the marriage.  Sometimes I switch something from one side of the scale to the other.  I have reasoned out how staying is better for the kids, and at other times see how leaving is better for the kids. That one is a big weight to switch back and forth, but it happens.  For me, it's less drip by drip, but seems like more sorting out more and more large and small items to the "leaving" side.

@ LuckyJim, I hear you.  I even described it to my wife face to face that loving her is like filling a bucket with holes all over.  I can't do enough.  Never enough, never anything to return.  She lives in an abyss. It's sad really.

How true this is.  No matter what I do to help... .its never enough.  Forget the fact that I'm late for work every day because I get the D16 to her bus, let the dogs out, get coffee ready, help get D10 moving (tough to keep her on task) and occasionally still have time to make lunches... .but oh today... I took a shower and she had to feed the dogs.  Well they could have waited 10 minutes for me to get out of the shower.

She gave me crap about taking a shower in the morning when I should have been helping her.  Now mind you she's kicked me out of the master bathroom so I can't use that shower and the only other shower backs up to the kids room and makes noise at night so she has told me thats off limits too... .so when exactly am I supposed to take care of myself?

About ready to get off this crazy train but I'm not looking forward to the scorched earth extinction burst... .

-Oz

I have not reached the "enough is enough" point.  Reading all the horrible experiences people have put up with has helped me put my situation in perspective, I think.  I have dealt for years with the same emotional stuff (I was with her when the BPD issue was raised after sessions with therapist at the local hospital, but now she won't admit it and just blames me for her depression, that I told things to the doctor, etc.): the blame, the silence, wanting me to be like some character in a book or movie that is of course impossible for a real person - essentially tearing down my self-esteem.  But she has never been violent to me, or run away (for more than half a day), or any other more extreme behaviours.  She has developed a bit of a wild side going out with girlfriends, but nothing really bad.  After over 30 years of marriage, she has asked about open marriage... .if she finds someone she clicks with who will take her clubbing and on trips (I am now an anxiety-ridden introvert who does not want to go places).  I did not slam the door closed on the idea, but made it clear that if she talks to me first, we can discuss it, but if she goes behind my back that is cheating - I am thinking I would rather have a chance to try to convince her not to, instead of her going behind my back because if I found out then I would never be able to trust her again whenever she says she is going out shopping or with her friends. And no trust = no relationship.
Anyways, I wanted to thank everyone who has posted on this conversation... .as emotionally rough as I am finding things right now, I now know that things could be a lot more dire, and I can gain some strength from that and keep things in perspective.

The end of my relationship came when my BPD ex beat me into the hospital, so I'm probably NOT the person to ask about knowing when to walk away, clearly I DIDN'T make a good call.

But I wanted to reply to plug the concept of making a choice before it's made FOR you. I can look back now and count at least 10 times I probably SHOULD have called it quits, and if I had I could have spared myself a lot of heartache. When he spit on me? Yup. When he backed me against a wall and then punched a hole into it an inch from my head? Yup. When he called me a ___ and chased me across the parking lot of his apartment complex? Yuuuuuup... .and numerous other times.

I guess all that to say that at some point our BPD people have shown us what they are capable of when dysregulated. At some point we have a pretty good idea of whether they are capable of really improving or changing. And at some point we can pretty accurately predict what the future holds. I knew for many months and wish I had made the decision for myself BEFORE the worst could happen.

Just my 2 cents... .I know it's not easy. But I think you probably have a pretty good idea.

Lala

@ LowSpirit - I think I know what you're saying about not being as bad as some of the horror stories on these boards.  I too read of others stories, and I feel sorry for them, and at the same time, glad that I'm not in a situation "that bad."  However, I will note that each person is different.  There is not a set standard, or line past which one can say "enough is enough."  There's not a matrix that gives you a score to tell you when to end a relationship.  I sometimes feel regretful that I didn't end my marriage right away, or 19 years, or 18 years, or 17 years ago, and so forth.  I kept giving and suffering.  In some ways it was a learning process for me, and I think I am a better person because me deepest character flaws have been blasted away due to my constant trying harder and becoming a better person.  That said, I think inside, my gut is saying that I've had enough. So, you've got to figure it out for yourself.  There is no outside answer.

As an observer of human behavior, I suspect that by the time a woman (your wife) asks you what you think of an open relationship - and you don't blow up and instantly shut the idea down - it's too late.  The ship has sailed.  Furthermore, thinking of BPD as a toddler mind, by not making an extreme prohibition of a behavior, anything less is an implicit permission.  So, you have already told her with your behavior that she can have an open marriage.  Better decide what you're going to do about it.

@ Lala - your story is a stark reminder about how important safety is, and how difficult things get when we move our "line of tolerance."  It must be hard to think about and share.  I'm sorry.  It also is a difficult lesson for me in that I "wish" I was getting physically abused rather than verbal and emotionally abused.  I can protect myself physically better.  I would have physical proof, evidence, and a court case if I was physically harmed.  It would be obvious to myself and others that the relationship is toxic, harmful, and needed to end.  Instead I mull around in a category of "hurt feelings" as grounds for divorce.  I'm not making light of any abusive situation, but, I would much prefer to have a "fight" I can identify.   You can look back at physical damage that was your warning sign.  I look back and see ambiguous emotional cues, feelings, rages, and then doubt they happened like I remember, or misunderstood, or ignored.   We both went too far down the road suffering they way that we have.

Thank you, Sam.  I too am wondering whether I made a huge mistake by not shutting things down as soon as she raised the "open" question.  As I said, I was worried that if I said an outright "no", she might go off and do something just to put me in my place.  She has always said that she wants me to be "a man" and dominant and make decisions, but in reality, they have to be the decisions she wants made -- she just doesn't want to have to make the decision herself.  And being dominant means doing the things she wants me to do.  Her cycles of ups and downs have gone on for years, lasting anywhere from a week of not talking to me or the kids, to 6 months of high libido behaviour (that after the first few weeks became less fun and more just trying to appease), to probably a year or more holed up in our bedroom -- barely talking to anybody and fairly often locking me out.  She also has difficulties maintaining friendships ("latches onto" one or two people and does everything with them every day for months, but sooner or later she says something 'wrong' or takes something somebody else says personally when it was not and terminates the friendship).  She is currently in a group of friends local to our city that she found online a few months ago;  many of them are decades younger, and are living the irresponsible/free life of "polyamourous" and "open" relationships -- I think that is where the idea came from.  I am thinking that, true to past behaviours, this is just the high part of a cycle and it will end soon -- or the friendships will end just as they always have.  I just hope that is before she actually decides to do something.  If she does do something and jeopardizes the marriage, then I guess I would have to see whether she instantly regrets it and we can introduce marriage counselling (maybe leading to counselling for her) and improve the situation, or whether she has no remorse which I cannot see resulting in anything but the end of our marriage.

In the meantime, her blaming me for all her problems has created a huge hole in our relationship where if I say anything about togetherness, just she tosses out that I (apparently) didn't care at all about her for years and drove her to depression.    And she doesn't invite/involved me in her social life with her friends, even when their SOs are invited.  We still get along (her snide comments, annoyance, and quick frustration with me is nothing new so doesn't bother me and I recognize where it comes from), and still sleep together, but the deep connection that we should have is not there... .and I guess maybe never will be unless she eventually decides that she does have a problem and starts going to therapy and recognizes that I was not the cause of her moods (she was told a few years ago by the doctor that they have gone as far as they can with the meds, but she needs therapy too, but would never go once the meds got sorted out).  By the way, she wasn't always like this -- yes, strong-willed and the more dominant one in the relationship -- but things didn't really start to come 'unhinged' (and I do not mean that in a derogatory way about her, but I mean with behaviours and our relationship) until after our 3rd child... .I am not certain whether the stresses of motherhood, etc. can be a trigger for setting off BPD (probably something else I should read up on).

I am very unhappy, and ruminate on this stuff all day every day, and have no idea whether we have a future together, but knowing where this all comes from (in my thoughts, something she cannot control and does not do purposefully to hurt me) combined with my feeling that a lot of it is just my inability to cope properly (I am an anxious/weak kind of guy) does not make me feel that it is time to 'fish or cut bait'.  I am working on myself: going to talk to the doctor about how to deal with my overwhelming anxieties, losing some weight, joining some other forums just so I can have some "normal" social interaction, etc., and also trying to understand her better (reading this forum and other material).  It is not yet time for me to say 'enough is enough' but it certainly is a struggle to make it through the day sometimes still feeling good about myself and with some hope for the future.

I hear you. I have gone on the roller coasters as a BPD passenger also. 
Confidence is sexy, and if she hasn’t seen yours in a while, maybe sexual boredom is behind the talk of open relationships.  Maybe.  You could read “No more mr. Nice Guy!”  I was put off by the title for a year or so, priding myself on being a nice guy, but I had a lot of wrong reasons and methods to being a nice guy.  Give it a read and see where it takes you.  It gave me some much needed perspective. 

Having a solid sense of self is life saving when living near to a BPD sufferer.  Self help is very important.

Keep on going!

Thanks, Sam.  I will look that up.  Indeed, I can see where "nice guy" and "wimp" overlap and perhaps that is part of the problem.  I have always thought I was being extremely nice by accommodating many of her wishes.  That, of course, may just be being a wimp -- at least in her eyes.  As I said, she has talked often of wanting me to be more dominant and making decisions, etc. although she is not happy if I choose wrong or do something she does not want.  I will read that reference (is a post on this site, a book, or something else?), and work on my ESP to figure what she wants when she doesn't say it (ok, maybe not ESP, but I was just having a conversation the other day with my daughter and she was talking about how "mentalists" must be extremely good at picking up on body language and small expressions of people to guide them -- I will have to do some looking up of that).  Goodness knows, I would like to be the person she is looking for before she goes looking to much (recognizing that I am me, and I have to be happy with myself, too... .and aware that I cannot meet the standards of a fictional character she sees in some movie or reads about in a book). 

Wow, thanks for this.  This helps me understand my last two breakups!  I felt badly that both men left me, rather than me leaving them because they treated me poorly.  But they left AFTER I set strong boundaries.  That really helps me reframe and beat up on myself less.  Thank you!

Reading this had made me grateful that I "only" received emotional abuse. My breaking point came when I realized the huge double standards my partner was holding on to when I fell in love with another person for the first time in ten years (that's how long our relationship lasted).  She has flirted with other people for years but I had to be completely faithful - to the point that people thought I was a prude. My partner was allowed to have as many close friendships/relationships as she liked but I had to be exclusively hers.

When I admitted my feelings for another person all hell broke lose. She raged, cried, emotionally blackmailed, manipulated and tried to control me for months. There was no willingsness on her side at all to work on the weak spots of our relationship (I had been very lonely for over a year because of her crazy working hours). I think the only way to "save" the relationship would have been to cut all ties with the other person.

At that point, however, I felt so abused and trapped in an unloving marriage that this was no longer an option. The other person I fell in love with does not have BPD and I simply could no longer choose a hurtful, dyregulated control freak over a gentle and kind soul who really seems to love and respect me.

LowSpirit, couple of quick questions:
- Was that your last child together?
- Was she working even part time with 1 & 2 child and gave up work to be a stay at home mum for 3?
-  How old was child 1 when child 3 was born?

I have had a couple of thoughts on this based on some information I have read on bpdfamily and putting timings together.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/why-we-struggle-in-relationships

"Typically, a borderline adult gets exactly what they feel they have always needed when they have a baby. That is, while it has proven almost impossible to merge with another adult, while simultaneously maintaining control over the relationship, with a baby that is exactly what the borderline achieves. The situation is, at first, tantalizingly perfect. The borderline wants perfect recognition of their own independence and that is what they perceive within their merger with the infant. As long as they respond to the child's biological needs in the first few months, the child is very likely to seem to be giving perfect recognition of the borderline's independence. To the borderline, the fact that they are now a parent, seems like individuation."

"Predictably, however, as soon as the baby has independent striving, the borderline parent experiences abandonment at the hands of their very own child. Such abandonment or individuation is impossible for the borderline to tolerate and thus they react to their own child with distaste, anger, ignoring behavior, and they use any other means necessary to thwart their child's independence."

My uBPDw's symptoms seemed to lessen when the children were very young, as though she had exactly what she'd always needed. As the article above notes, when the children became older and unmeshed from her she struggled... .and along came another replacement baby... .until we'd had our 3rd. After #3 she did not return to work and had a lot of time to ruminate AND deal with our eldest who was then say around 4, starting school (abandonment) and very independent (abandonment). This is a complete hunch, but I think that my W hates the bad feelings stirred up by the children's independence and going to school (emotional abandonment/ physical abandonment) she cannot pinpoint their origins but even more importantly does not want to feel anger towards her own children as she knows that is wrong and they are just children. She cannot rationalise why she might be angry with her own children being independent or "abandoning" her going to school, so looks for an alternative thing to blame... .so instead she directs the anger at me.

Thanks for starting this discussion, 5min.  I have related to so much of what has been said here.    I have been married to a PWBPD traits for over 30 years. There have been really good times and really bad times as most of you have also experienced.  During the past 3 years, I have been working on myself and my part in our problems.  I have come a long way in keeping my emotions regulated and taking better care of myself.

In short,  there has been a ton of crazy making behavior.  Yelling, screaming, cussing, name calling, throwing things, breaking things and occasional pushing and shoving physically threatening behavior.  Recently,I have set firm boundaries and have been maintaining those boundaries.  It has been very difficult.  But, when I become an observer instead of a participant in the craziness, I can respond in a more rational way.

The angry fits have continued.  Recently, my husband started breaking our wedding crystal.  He says it’s half his and he doesn’t want it.  This is just an example of how things can go off the rails. 

I can relate to those of you who after an ugly episode ask yourselves if it really happened. It’s sometimes hard to believe.  But, I am shaking myself and forcing myself to believe the truth of what has happened and will continue to happen if I don’t take a stand.  Last year, I began to experience some stress related health problems.  One being that my hair began to fall out.  When I tried to talk to him about the stress that his anger was contributing, he totally blamed it all on the stress from taking care of my elderly mom.  Which admittedly is stressful, but not the entire problem.  At least taking care of an elderly person has some firm guidelines and answers, whereas living with a PWBPD is a puzzle.

We are getting our home ready to sell.  We did plan to move to my family’s home which has been empty and I  have been maintaining since my mom moved to a long term care facility.  But, just today I told him that I want to move there by myself.  He acts shocked and hurt even though I have been telling him that I will not continue to live with the name calling. 

I really pray for the strength to enforce this boundary.  I don’t want to grow any older with this crazy behavior.

Well, I had all of these in my first marriage to a pwBPD, and I still stayed for years. I kept thinking if I just loved him enough, he would quit doing all these things and remember to be kind again. Well, he did "try" and largely stopped a lot of those behaviors, or maybe they just went underground and he continued doing them without my knowledge.

But the sum total of my experience wore me down and filled me with bitterness, anger and depression. When I realized that I was "merely waiting to die" I told myself that if he ever crossed the lines of violence or infidelity again, I would have a choice: 1. ending the relationship  or  2. waiting to die.

I chose #1  and my life has been so much better ever since. Yes, divorce with a pwBPD was no picnic, but I emerged stronger and more intact than I'd been in the relationship.

Though I did counseling for a couple years, had a nice BF I didn't want to marry because of his PTSD from military service, I still ended up marrying another BPD husband. Although this one is much milder on the spectrum, it was still a shock when I finally recognized some of the behavioral patterns. Fortunately he doesn't do any of the above list, but it was incredibly disappointing that he wasn't the man I fell in love with. He's still a good man, but the BPD.

Ah, it's hard to escape the childhood programming when one has grown up in a home with a BPD parent. Thanks Mom!     :)

@ Cat - yikes!  I have been using the descriptor "just waiting for my turn to die" as an explanation of my marital status. Ugh, you hit a nerve.  And thanks.  There has to be more, but, like a convict on death row - i'm trying to spend as much time with my kids an fill my life with fitness and otherwise purposeful work until it's my time to die.

@ Samwize: Living a life of quiet desperation, as if you are on death row, strikes me as incredibly sad for someone as bright and talented as you.  I wonder whether the solution might be "outside the box."  For example, not all spouses live together full time.  Some spouses even live and work in different states.  Not saying this is right for you, but am suggesting that there are different formats out there that might be more viable for you going forward.

LuckyJim

I had a random thought, I always try to see things as they are, relative to time and space, how big is a human head, a human brain, well about roughly the size of a canolope, a mush melon as my Grandmother used to refer to them, and to say that this compact sized unit holds the human continence, even the “soul essence” , and then considering the size and area of the earth and even our solar system, then why in the world would we let another human hold us hostage so? Considering the actual size of our mates “brain housing group”... .how is this possible, when there are so many other things in our lives that are enormous is size comparison, why do we let one other person control, and devalue, and make us so miserable? What a quandary eh’... .I guess I am trying to say, life is so enormous and so expansive, so big!... .how can something so small rule over us?... .why?, is it “Love”, or responsibility, or who really knows... .v/r Red5

I’ve spent time thinking about death row.  I can find some inspirational stories there. There is enlightenment and penance.  There is wisdom hidden from most.  There is value in each day that the sun rises and each breath we draw.  I am extremely more attentive as a father since I know that my time is limited and affected by the family dysfunction.  Although I’ve committed no crime, here I am. However, I’m as free as my belief system. I’m as happy as I choose to be. I am immune to marriage for the most part. 

@LJ. I am in a pause right now.  I cannot stay in this grayish area forever.  For now I stay, but maybe I’m a fighter not a lover.  This has to get fixed or broken eventually. 

Oh Samwize, something about these last few posts makes me incredibly sad. I completely understand your response to me above about how hard it is to determine when the emotional manipulative BS and unkindness is “enough” to end a relationship. Clearly, in a situation like mine where there was a gross physical assault after some fairly egregious red flags, the lines become a lot clearer.

However, my observation is that you are a generous, kind, and supportive person. You display that continually on the forum in your thoughtful responses. That you have been reduced to “waiting to die” by the circumstance of your relationship makes me want to cry.

I guess I would encourage you to think again about what your definition of “enough” is. I know we aren’t supposed to tell anyone what to do and clearly I have revealed a bias, so my apologies. But please consider that if you are comparing your life to that of a death row inmate, the damage you are experiencing is substantial.

Take care of yourself!

Though we didn't have children, my ex and I shared a business, a ranch, and after so many years, our lives seemed inextricably entwined. When we first got together, I was still a child, emotionally, if not numerically.

Ending the relationship was like jumping into the void. I had no idea how I would manage and he sabotaged me every way he could. But I persisted. I kept moving forward, once I had the taste of freedom. For a year, I slept with a gun under my bed (not something I felt comfortable with, but a friend who knew my situation insisted).

Ultimately, the legal paperwork was done and I had paid him far more than I thought I should for him to go away. My attorney explained that I'd either spend about the same amount of money in his fees if I'd try and fight in court with the vain hope of making it "fair" so I chose to end it sooner and be done with the ex forever.

In retrospect, I got off cheap, with real estate prices having skyrocketed. It was brutal, but freedom from this tyrannical person was well worth the fight. And though I have issues in my current relationship, it's like comparing a mosquito bite to an attack by a grizzly bear.

@ 5 min, Sorry to hijack this thread, briefly.

Hey Sam, I know that you're in a holding pattern.  Years ago, during my marriage, I had a strange fantasy, which was that I would be arrested and sent to jail.  For what crime, I am unsure, but the theme was that it would be a relief from the daily strife with my BPDxW.  I longed to have a cell where I could live without abuse.

The reason I mention this weird fantasy is that it reminds me a little of your identification with those on death row.  In both cases, I think, you can see one's subconscious trying to be heard.  It's a message from the depths of one's core.

Like you, I was in a holding pattern and lacked the strength to leave.  Yet here I am seven years after separating from my Ex, and life is a lot more expansive than I ever thought, as Red5 notes.  I've found that, despite all the hardship, I still have the capacity to love and be loved by kind people.  There are kind people are out there for you, too, when you are ready to make the move.

You deserve to be happy, right?

LuckyJim

Thank you all, and apologies for hijacking the thread quite a bit.  Lala, you are very kind and thoughtful, thank you.
I am looking at myself, trying to pry back layers of thoughts and feelings.  I am watching for signs whether I have reached an enlightened state of lovingkindness and acceptance and have arrived at the “rest of my life” or, whether I am covertly depressed and gone numb to the point of being wrongly on death row of marriage.  I do believe that when we numb the hurt, we numb the joy, and I can say that marriage doesn’t hurt and doesn’t bring an iota of joy either.  Probably not the life I’d like to pass on for my kids for sure.  But, for some reason I’m just feeling inert, but accepting and happy with my own self at the same time. 

My hobby of distance running just sort of ingrained my psyche to keep running, take the pain and keep running for the greater joy and accomplishment of the run.  It’s analogous to marriage.  Eat, suffer, and keep going. 

Meanwhile, I question whether the fight to be free would be worth the price I’d pay.

This, so much this.  Sam, I'm in the same limbo right now, numb, no joy, sometimes no hope.

I was talking to my T a few weeks ago about what I was so afraid of about leaving and it really boiled down the the almost insurmountable fight and pile of BS that I know will get thrown at me.  My versions of passivity was hoping she'd find a new partner and in the midst of her love-bombing just finally leave me alone. 

I desperately want this to be over, but I have no fight left.  You're not alone.

Oh boy Samwize, you probably remember that I’m a runner too, and boy does your observation resonate.

I’m what one might consider a “grinder”. I will never be the fastest runner, but I’ve done fairly well for myself because I’ve always been willing to work as hard or harder than the average Joe. This has caused me problems at times... .amennorea from underfueling and overtraining, overuse injuries from “playing through the pain, and issues with my weight that required some intervention. Essentially what I have learned about myself is that it is FAR too easy for me to get so caught up in the “end game” that I become completely unaware of the damage I cause myself - honestly when I’m too focused I don’t even SEE the warning signs it’s so easy to keep pushing the override switch.

I’m not accusing YOU of training unwisely, But it HAS been my observation that we distance runners, as a whole, do tend to “grind” towards a greater purpose. And when you mentioned that, I found myself wondering how much my tendency to “just get through it” contributed to my inability to make the wisest choices for myself throughout the course of my relationship.

And knowing that the process of leaving would be so hard that you instinctively begin to avoid it? Yeah - I did that too. Nothing about a BPD relationship is easy. It seems that those sticking it out are doing so by pure strength of will.

Hey Sam, If running the marriage marathon brings you joy, then I'm all for it.  On the other hand, if it's a case of "Eat, suffer and keep going," then I question whether it's worth it.  There's a quote from William Faulkner, and I'm paraphrasing here, that someone's epitaph was "he was born; he suffered; he died."  Undoubtedly we all will do all three, but maybe there's room for some happiness along the way?  LJ

I take commitments seriously and it took a lot to break me out of a very damaging marriage.

As a child of a BPD mother, who asked me when I was about five which parent I'd choose if she divorced my dad, I want to add my opinion about divorce. My response at that time was that I'd run away rather than make that choice. For a year or two both parents repeatedly asked me who I liked best. Ultimately they stayed together and never mentioned divorce again in my presence.

But it was a loveless marriage. My mother pushed my father away any time he tried to be physically affectionate to her. And she loudly complained whenever a TV show or movie showed kissing scenes or more. It was very damaging to me, growing up in this sort of environment, not having healthy role models for loving parents.

So yes, keeping marriage commitments can be honorable, but at what cost personally and to children?

It has been a few days since I have been on the site. Wow! Lots of good discussion. I don't feel like anyone has hijacked it. All of your posts are helping.

It has been a rough morning. I am the devil incarnate and the cause of all her problems for the last 11 years. I'm tired of the drama, name calling, blaming, screaming, and rages. I am tired of her inability to get along and to just live. She takes everyone else out of the game. The "I am just waiting to die" hits the nail on the head. I guess I have been at this tipping point for some time hence the original post. Today I am out of empathy, sympathy, and love. I expect no change. I don't want to go home tonight, but there's no other option for now.

I can relate to commitment. I take it serious and doing so has tried my faith to near breaking. I get that the answer is "No, she will not get better."

I hit my limit when he made feel like I was raising a child again. I feel like i was getting nowhere and I saw no growth or improvement and I was getting nothing from the relationship but stress. I tried to be strick, caring, solving his mistakes, cheering him up, steering him in the right direction but his mind was too damaged and I didn't wanna b dragged down with him and lose my way of life and thinking. So I had to chose me or him and I chose me. I hurt at first but when u feel ur energy being sucked from and u see urself start to change in the mirror you'll say awww hell nah it's time to go . Love isn't that hard and it shouldn't be and it shouldn't make u hate it.  So basically when his actions forced me to put my care and energy back into myself that when I had enough. At first I was scared he would move on and find someone else but then I realized their BPD isn't gonna end or get better with someone the same cycle would just repeat and if I didn't  leave i would be stucked into it for life and I don't want that burden

I agree with Mrb87, I felt like I had an adoptive child to take care of - a very troubled one at that. All my time was spent taking care of his never ending problems in all areas of life. As soon as we sorted something out, he would mess it up again.

That, combined with his cheating (both physical and emotional at several times). There were no trust left after this occurred.

I also figured out he never listened to what I wanted out of the relationship. If he wanted something, he really needed it NOW, and I had to be ok with that or all hell would break loose.

He had double standards for what was acceptable for me to do, and what was acceptable for him. If he felt I disrespected him, I tried to change so he wouldn't feel like that. When I felt he disrespected me, he just laughed it off, I was always "overreacting", always "too jealous", always "too fixated on money", always "too cold".

There were many things that should have made me say "enough is enough" a long time ago. Life is hard enough as it is, I can't stay with someone that makes it so much harder.

i had the same exact problem. if he need something or wanted to complete something on his selfish bucket list (which were only things he liked or things he did so his ex would like him again or feel some type of jealousy but fronted like his list was for us) we HAD to do it or the tantrum would begin. i NEVER once cheated on him but all his words and the way he spoke to me, he tried to make it sound like i was cheating or doing something hidden and i did him wrong took and took the trust out of the relationship and he needed to get revenge on me. There would be days when i would leave him on a good note and come back and he would hate me for no reason and create a strange feeling in the air and i would be so confused. i would ask what wrong and he would say "nothing God's ___ing with my life once more. why doesnt he just kill me." hearing statements like that killed the mood in every way and and he would make them %90 of the time

It's hard to understand the depths of self-loathing pwBPD feel. These sorts of moods can be triggered by nothing external. They might suddenly fall into a major funk because of something they've remembered, something they see on TV, feeling disrespected at the grocery store, who knows?

And then they are very unpleasant to us, the person who loves them.

My husband was going through old letters some time ago and found one from his first wife, who he married when he was a teenager. She broke up with him shortly afterwards. In her letter, she stated that he had no ability to be introspective and realize how his moods impacted her.

Well, many decades later, I'd say she was spot on. Very enlightened and observant for one so young!

The joys of emails... .when I was trying anchor my sanity in facts recently I found an email from '07 (second time she left and came back) basically saying exactly the same things as I would say today. I even found a letter I posted under her university dorm from '97 (6m into the relationship) door saying the similar things. Siiiigh!

Maya Angelou on Twitter: ""When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

Maybe one day this will sink in for me, .I am too trusting?... .believe in making up, believe things will change, .think that things will one day get better, well they do fo just a short while and then it’s right back to the same old same old... .yesterday we cycled down again, eleven days since the last bout, which lasted “eleven” days... .“believe them when they tell you who they are”... .I called this “default behavior” in another thread, like when a light bulb fails, it’s default is to go out and never give light again, .when was the first time?, .and why am I here now, v/r Red5

Hey Red5, No, I don't think you are too trusting; rather, you are dealing with a terrible disorder that is extremely challenging to live with, due to the cyclic nature of BPD.  The tranquil periods don't last long, I'm afraid, and the other shoe always drops, which is why I used to walk on eggshells.

LuckyJim

I was going through some papers earlier this year and found a letter never sent that was breaking off my engagement to my now wife of 20 years.  In my own words, without the education in mental illness I have now, I was saying that I wish things could work out, but there were things that  just didn’t seem to be right.
Dated February 16, 1997. 
The road not taken... .has made all the difference. 

Samwize, that must have been stunning to see. I think about the road not taken, too. What if I had taken care of my own needs instead of feeling like my calling in life was to take care of his? What if I had considered the damage I'd inflict on my children by giving him this father, rather than believing I could mother his children to emotional health?

I wonder when I'll hit my limit. I suspect I will at some point. If he becomes estranged from one of our kids, which his family members have done. If he becomes an actual white supremacist in his increasingly easily offended-ness/tribalism. Maybe if he won't quit berating me now that I can see that behavior clearly. If these cycles keep going even once I've learned these skills and the kids have grown up.

I can't imagine being happy with being so careful for the rest of my life, as I reach a more freeing time of my life. He would have to change, and that seems unlikely. I used to expect that he would, so I had hope.

Hey Sam, Agree w/ElinorD: that must have been stunning to see.  You stopped me in my tracks because, some 20 years ago I called off a marriage to my BPDxW.  We ended up getting married a year later, but, like you, I sensed that something wasn't right.  I had never heard of BPD and had no ability to put into words what was bothering me.  I thought I had a fear of commitment and needed to jump off the diving board into the marriage pool, after which it would go better.  It did go better, for a while, but it didn't last very long.  I'm so sorry that you find yourself in this situation.

LuckyJim

@ LJ - I have a funny personality trait too, that if something seems scary I do think it over, but I'm strongly decided to "not not" do something out of fear.  So, I think I squelched my inner voice - thinking it was just a case of the nerves.  
And once I jumped, I recognized it was felt wrong, not what I wanted.  But, she was such a "good girl," and once you're married, you might as well work on it.  Then one kid.  Then another.  Then the post-partum depression blew a chasm through what was left of my idea of marriage hopes and dreams. And I stayed, and had more kids.  I certainly proved I wasn't afraid!  

So so sorry to 5Min and the community to contributing to so much of the tangent. I took up all your space.  Sorry!

Hi 5min -

You asked at what point did I say enough was enough.

I was married just a few weeks when I started to understand that I wasn't dealing with just jealousy or insecurity on the part of my xhwBPD "traits". Something happened that made me question the entire relationship, won't go into it in depth, but it broke my boundaries of how a husband and a wife treat each other.

I promised myself I would wait one year, and try to work through the issues we were having, but at the end (and a marathon 7 hour extinction burst)I grew fearful of him, and when he was verbally attacking me in front of my teenagers (in private he was much worse, but sometimes he liked an audience) I made the decision to divorce. I did go to a therapist initially myself, then we went to 1 marriage counseling session together but it was already over. I was just confirming what I already knew, do you understand?

It was painful. Admitting defeat and what a poor judge of character I was... beating myself up. It's been almost 4 years since that all transpired but sometimes it feels like yesterday because I struggle with decisions in my personal life, it's like I don't trust myself anymore.

I have this weird naiveté about people, going in too trusting, being so glad to be liked that I don't question their motives. (PATHETIC) I think (I know you didn't ask this) that whatever perfect person I expected myself to be I am clearly NOT and that creates this negative well of pain inside of me that just begs to be eased. And for a time, he eased that pain but in the end he was the cause of it.

One thing that helped me a bit was visualizing my life after x was gone. What would that be like?

So I ask you, what would your life be like after your partner is gone? Does that help you reach a decision about your relationship? Maybe not all the peripherals, finances, kids etc, but would YOU be happier?

L



 

I think I'm just about there.

Every 2 weeks I give my SAHM wife half of my hard-earned net salary. I take the other half, but I take care of all the big expenses car, rent, school fees, big supermarket trips, healthcare insurance, utility bills.  She uses her half for... .well, she's never been straight with me about how much she has left over and what she has used it for. But I give her the money every 2 weeks anyway. In cash. Which is how she asks for it.

The day before yesterday she said she couldn't find the most recent stack of bills I gave her and that she wants me to return the money I stole from her.   That's right, she is insisting I stole that money from her.

Now, I understand the BPD brain enough to figure out that she is trying to divert attention away from her flaws and shame (in this case the negligence of losing the money, or perhaps even squirrelling the money away for herself) and so her accusation of me stealing the money is her way of dealing with that shame.

Well I'm sick of getting caught up in her aggressive defenses.  Ya me cansé.  Every floor in our house is carpeted with eggshells and it's not me who keeps putting the eggshells there. Time to move to a different house.

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