BPDFamily.com

My husband is in a really bad mood. He drank a lot last night and can't spare a pleasant word for me today. I don't think he's hungover as much as he's feeling sorry for himself. Yesterday he broke a veneer on his front tooth, but the dentist came in on his day off to fix it.

Yesterday he sent email messages to a couple of friends, his two sisters and no one has responded to him. YET. It's been about 24 hours and no response = people don't care about him and they've "thrown me away".

So naturally he's grumpy and now he lumps me into the category of "people who don't care about me." 

OK, I goofed. Started JADEing, invalidating him. Stopped myself and I did remember to validate that he must feel lonely and unappreciated and he agreed.

What I now realize is that this is recreating a FOO pattern where I apologized repeatedly for inconsequential things, begged and pleaded for my mom to love me, etc. ICK. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole again.

Intellectually I get it, but his crabby mood is like a syrupy black cloud that makes me feel really uncomfortable. My go-to strategy has always been to try and talk things out, and it's taken me years to realize how counterproductive that is with a pwBPD.

He's left for some nebulous errand, so I have a more peaceful ambience. I've got a friend coming over in an hour and we're going to play with my young horse and see if we can get her a bit more finely tuned up on her turns. Then my horseshoer is coming. Both these people are very pleasurable to be around so that will make for a pleasant afternoon before my hubby and his black cloud returns.

I'm pretty good at removing myself from the ugliness, but it still affects me. Anybody have any tips to spare?

I just had an epiphany today about my FOO and subsequent choices of life partners. I realized how important animals are to me because I've had very little experience of unconditional love from humans.

My mother isolated me from outside influences and if I'd had more time with some of my aunts and uncles, I think I'd have a better idea of what unconditional love was all about. But I only had short glimpses. Better than nothing.

But I certainly experienced that accepting love from my dog and cat when I was a child. And a bit of that from my dad before he was so worn out from dealing with my BPD mom.

I wonder if an "out of the blue response" would disrupt things.

Perhaps if you expressed loneliness to him and asked for his help... .

Perhaps and unplanned trip to town to eat out.

You are so lonely that you "just can't bear to discuss lonely anymore... let's focus on (fill in blank).

Admit you are being needy and appreciate his understanding.

Basically something to leave him scratching his head.

Thoughts?

FF

I think this is where the tendency to want to fix things gets us in trouble.

Breaking it down... .husband is in a bad mood. It's not about you, and then it suddenly becomes about you - when he lumps you into the group of people who have abandoned him. You didn't say -- did you say or do anything at that point to capture his attention?

You make a good recovery there - you validate his feelings, and he accepts the validation! You're in good shape there.

Now you're dealing with a couple of feelings and impulses of your own. First -- can you take some action to get him out of his mood? Second -- his mood makes you uncomfortable.

I think you know that trying to fix his mood doesn't work, so it's good that you avoided that. Now you're left with your own discomfort. What can you do to address that? At a more advanced stage, you might get to the point where you don't feel anxious when he's upset, but for now -- what can you do to self-soothe? Take a walk, do chores, listen to music?

 Thanks FF and flourdust.

Regarding the idea of an unexpected response, I think you’re onto something, FF. Breaking the pattern of responding to his “poor me” saga.

I’ve got to do it in an authentic way. He’d never buy me being “lonely” but needy, hmmm. That would probably work. It’s a fine line. When he’s like this if I say I’m hurt by him acting cold toward me, then he accuses me of “it’s always about you.” Like I’m not supposed to have a reaction if he’s being an azz.

I used to dress up my dog in a hat and tutu and try and make my mom crack a smile, so I don’t want to do the dancing bear routine to try and get him out of his
crappy mood. But at the same time, I want to respond in a different way so I’m not just exiting the arena when he’s crabby. I’m very good at that.

To respond to your q? flourdust, the anxiety I feel in his presence isn’t easily fixed. I do leave and do things and when I do, I’m happy in my own skin. But then I see him later and I feel that discomfort in the pit of my stomach.

I’m trying to figure out how to get over that.

Today I was treating one of my horses for a hoof abscess. Once he got the idea that soaking his foot in a bucket of warm water with Epsom salt felt pretty good, we hung out for a half hour doing that.

That’s something I love about animals: their ability to be fully present and relaxed, like the cat stretched out on my lap right now. I have that feeling with my friends and lots of other people—just being together in the present moment and being fully there with each other.

I thought I had that with my husband at the beginning of our relationship—to an incredible degree. But often, it’s like he’s got this intensity bubbling under the surface and he can’t relax or even be present for more than a moment with me. He’s got to do something—have a drink, watch a game on TV, listen to the radio, check something online. It’s like there’s a whirlwind of energy untamed just under the surface. He’s got to keep his mind constantly stimulated; he can’t just be.

That chaotic energy makes me uncomfortable. I want to be able to hold my own space without being a psychic sponge.

Some fairly simple techniques can be helpful in managing anxiety in the moment. This is something I worked on with a stress management coach. I would get very anxious when my ex would phone me. Just hearing her talk would make me uncomfortable, and I would sometimes react badly by snapping at her or hanging up.

With the coach, I put together a short list of techniques and kept it on my phone. 1. Thank her for calling. 2. Do breathing exercises. 3. Do a mindfulness routine - count five things I can see, four things I can touch, etc. Those turned out to be good distractions to keep my feelings level so that I didn't act impulsively.

Could something like that help you in the moment?

Thanks, flourdust. Those are great suggestions.

It's recently become apparent to me how quickly his upset energy throws me off my game. I can be dwelling in my peaceful centered place and he'll come into the house and boom! suddenly I'm feeling agitated and disquiet.

I like the idea of remembering to breathe deeply into my belly, rather than finding myself breathing shallowly in my upper chest. And the counting is a really good suggestion--separating out each of the senses and fully experiencing them. That will help me stay within my own feeling space, rather than getting swept up into his agitation.

It's a fine line about having boundaries. We want them to be permeable to those we love, but at the same time, to have them strong enough so that we don't have to feel directly all the discomfort they're having in their bodies. I'm much better at doing this with strangers, though, being a "highly sensitive person" it's still discomfiting for me to be around chaos and agitation, no matter what the source. But I surely don't want to experience this in my own home, my refuge away from all the craziness of the world.

To be clear... .my thought has nothing to do with fixing his bad mood.  He can feel... however he feels.  I'm trying to shake up the dynamic between you guys, especially one that is bugging you.

I'm also taking the thought of training animals in here a little bit.  Many times when a horse or other animal is not doing well at something, bringing in a totally new lesson can capture their attention... .or at least refocus it away from an area that is not productive.

You would like a more present hubby... less crabby... .so, express your needs, ask for what you want and let him know that you will also be present for him tomorrow evening (or some other time).  You can even validate/agree if he brings it up that yes you are asking for "it" to be about you. 

Express and emotional need (remember, this is out of the blue so perhaps better that he doesn't buy it) and express something you would like to do together to address your need.

See how you are modeling healthy behavior for him.  If some rubs off on him... great.  If not... .that's ok too.

If he flips out... get's grumpier... whatever... .I would encourage you to go do the thing you wanted to do with him.  Don't toss it in his face... .but don't hide it either.  It would be fine to express disappointment.


FF

Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. I've heard it referred to as "pattern interrupt" and yes, that would be a really good strategy.

I tried it years before I realized that I'm dealing with a pwBPD and it definitely did shake things up. I haven't tried it recently, so that's a plan.

It's funny but I'm still reacting like I did as a child when my mother scolded me for wanting her attention. Hmmm... .I'll have to really think about this. Really, like what's wrong with it being about me? Or that I have needs? Jeez, I was trained to always suppress my own needs and try and placate someone else. Wow.

I see how this can be a teachable moment. I've got to be really authentic. He knows how self sufficient I am and that I'm never bored or lonely. I do, however, miss the closeness we once had. So that's an authentic need.

My initial question referred to how I could get over having my stomach in knots when in his presence whilst he's in a bad mood. There's no way I could try to change his mood--once he gets into one of those down in the dumps phases, he's very attached to staying there. Sometimes for days. Occasionally I've made him laugh and he's forgotten to be grumpy for a couple of minutes. Then he catches himself and goes right back into the black hole.

I understood that you weren't suggesting I try to fix his bad mood, FF. What was a bridge too far was that I was feeling far too fragile to even want to engage with him at all. I'm good at staying out of the way, manufacturing a task I absolutely need to do, hanging out with the animals, spending time with friends, etc. However, there are times when I have to endure being in his presence when he's grumpy and it really takes a toll on me.

So I'm realizing that I need to utilize a variety of strategies for self care at those times. For me, it's probably some latent holiday blues. Often I'm much better at dealing with him.

And... .be prepared to agree with him... 100% that you are making it about you.

When someone is grumpy... upset... disordered... and they express something to you, it's very powerful to not only validate... .but agree with them.

"Yes, I am making it about me today.  It would mean a lot to me if you could too."

pause... .

"Can we make it about you tomorrow night.  Perhaps we could... ."

FF

Good advice, FF. I've experienced the power of agreement and it truly is amazing.

What's so weird is that I've never felt OK about "making it all about me". That's surreal that it never occurred to me that I have a right to make things about me. How on earth did I miss that?

Thanks. You've really expanded my horizons.

It's so really easy to miss the 'me' bit all the time.
I remember when I was first learning the tools like validation, no JADE, SET etc I kept thinking, 'but I stilll feel xyz and what about that then?' Where does the 'me' bit go.

It wasn't until I read Stop Caretaking where she said if your pwBPD keeps doing something that upsets you, tell them, but tell them like this... .

'When you are doing/saying ABC, I feel XYZ and I want you stop because, maybe not forever, but for this time now because I'm struggling at the moment.'

 And then like ff says, give a window of opportunity to return to usual functioning so your pwBPD knows everything will go back to normal.

Inserting the 'you' takes more practice than just about any other tool. It is the bit I suspect we still most often forget in our relationships.

Thanks, sweetheart. This is very helpful. And good timing for me to set a new year's resolution to learn some new patterns that will be very beneficial for my own self expression and for the relationship.

I've realized that in the process of "not making things worse" I've also created a lot more distance. Some of that is good in that I've abandoned lifelong patterns of codependency and caretaking, but not all of them.    But at the same time, the distance is depriving the relationship of sustenance.

From the time I became conscious of "me" as a child, I was told by my BPD mother to not use the words "I" and "me" because it was selfish. As a tiny child, I was supposed to think about other people, namely her, I guess. Of course, that was a nearly impossible task for a kid of single digit years and I was shamed for thinking of myself so much.

Then later in life I learned that I should not use the word "you" and having been married to two BPD husbands, I discovered how charged that word can be and that even an innocuous statement including the "you" word could be interpreted as blaming and shaming.

I guess that's why I enjoy the company of animals so much. They don't give a darn what words I use as long as I let them know they are loved and appreciated.

So yes, it's a humorous bind. There are times when I really need to express how my husband's behavior is impacting me because I think he has absolutely no idea. Whether or not he would care and want to change his behavior to be less unpleasant toward me is another question.

But when he gets into one of his funks where he's sending clouds of black depression and grumpiness everywhere he goes, he does seem to think that it's perfectly his right to behave that way. On the other hand, he would never act that way in public. He pulls himself together and is polite and friendly, so I know it's possible to see the Dr. Jeckyl side, but in the privacy of his own home, it's Mr. Hyde on steroids. Not that he's purposefully angry and abusive toward me--I've set boundaries around that sort of behavior, but just the overall grumpiness and the "You don't care about me" kind of stuff really gets old.

So when it's at its worst, I exit the scene and get involved in my own tasks. But when it's only moderately difficult to be around, I think that's the time when it would be good to have a conversation about how his attitude impacts me.

He's self aware enough to be able to examine his behavior somewhat before he goes into a downward spiral into one of his pity parties where he thinks no one cares about him. If he could fully understand how being unpleasant might make me not want to spend time around him, then he would have more conscious choice about whether or not to act out his grumpiness in my presence. Or is that too much to assume that a pwBPD could process?

Well my husband has crawled out of the black hole and though he doesn't feel very good physically at the moment, at least he's being a pleasant companion. I'm very happy with pleasant, civil, polite--it doesn't have to rise much above this level for me to feel much more at ease.

And too, I get into my own holiday funk, though an outside observer would never notice it, since I try to maintain kindness as an operating principle. So I guess I need to be extra kind to myself when he's being crabby day after day.

When I feel strong and resourceful, that is the time to try and approach him with a message that his behavior is having unpleasant impacts upon me. Definitely not something I feel competent to try when I'm feeling weakness too.

Well, interestingly enough my husband unexpectedly tearfully apologized to me (for what exactly I don't know--the last few days? the last few years?) and told me that he wished that I would love him again the way I used to.

It caught me by surprise and I think the apology might have been triggered in part by the fact that he was not feeling physically well for a few days and that time gave him an opportunity to think about some things.

I told him that I never stopped loving him, but that I wasn't as comfortable around him as I used to be. (The best I could come up with on the spur of the moment.) It is totally true, other than I'm no longer infatuated with him as I once was. But I think the fact that I've cumulatively spent well over a month of my life on these boards, and possibly an additional month just lurking without being signed in, and then all the time and money I've spent on therapy, plus time reading--well, that's a pretty good sign that I love him and have been invested in this relationship.

Of course, I'll never tell him about being here, the books, the reason for therapy (I've mentioned how dysfunctional my childhood was due to BPD mom--and that's all he needs to know.)

So I'm not holding out any hope of major change, as I know what a set up that can be. And BPD feelings change so quickly. That could be a fleeting ephemeral thought, just triggered by physical discomfort. But it is interesting... .

And I'm being consistent. And true to myself.  

Bravo!  

Solid answer... spur of the moment or not.  

What can you do... .today... .tonight to follow up on this relationship moment and "nudge" things in a better direction?

Remember posts from a while back about leadership.  Remember talks about showing leadership to a skittish horse that has done well in training.

Thoughts?

FF

Thanks, FF. I have been a bit more affectionate with him today.

We had an invitation to go to one of his friend’s house for NYE, but he still is not feeling 100%. He asked me how I felt about it and I was open to going, but easily as happy to stay home. Actually more happy staying home, since I’m not too keen on this guy and his GF. (Too much alcohol, TV, rich food and sitting around for my taste.)

But I think my openness was a positive for my husband because he thanked me for discussing it with him.

The biggest drawback we both agreed upon was the drive home at night with all the drunks on the road. So staying home is the plan.

I’m just going to have a very mellow day without doing any major outdoor projects. The only thing I have to do is medicate my horse and soak his foot for twenty minutes.

I’m certainly open to rebuilding a connection with my husband. It took me a long time to get over my resentment. Then the next phase was a disengaged detachment. Now I’m open to rebuilding something. What that will look like, who knows? But it’s all good from my end.

I don’t have unrealistic expectations that I can turn around this relationship overnight, but I do have experience building things step by step: my now huge house compound, all my landscaped gardens. I started off many years ago living in a tiny trailer on an undeveloped piece of property without a well, road, septic, electricity. And bit by bit, I kept pursuing my vision and I now have a very luxurious life.

So if I can keep the focus on creating tangibles, I certainly can do that for the intangibles of a relationship. It may never resemble the ideal it once seemed to be, but it can continue to get better and better.

When you try to get him out of the mood, it probably makes him stick in it longer... .

And from a boundaries point of view, the grumpy crappy mood is his, and you have no right to take it from him, change it, or anything. The only thing for YOU to do about it is remove yourself from it before it harms you. (Turn things around--if he doesn't like your mood, trying to change it isn't good for you either!)

As for the knots in your stomach, perhaps as you practice letting him have his moods without trying to change them, you may well find that you will train yourself not to get quite so upset about his mood.

Yes, right on all three points. I've long ago quit trying to change his mood, cheer him up, get him talking about it (never has worked), so I leave him to it. And I do remove myself as much as possible. There are times when it's not possible to be out of his orbit (dinner, being in a car, attending a function we've planned), so my question was more about that.

I tend to pick up on other people's moods and I'm much more of a psychic sponge with people I care about. Part of that comes from being a highly sensitive person, which definitely has plusses and minuses. For that reason, I live out in the country in a place where there's little noise. When someone is highly agitated, it's really upsetting for me to be around that. I know part of the reason that I'm easily triggered by that is because I grew up with a BPD mother whose mental processes were very chaotic. Then my first BPD husband was prone to raging and depression.

Consciously I understand how to protect myself, but it doesn't easily translate on a physiological level. It's almost like how certain sound waves cause nearby objects to vibrate. I feel the same when I'm around people who are experiencing strong emotions. The good emotions aren't a problem. It's just when I start feeling the bad emotions reverberate within me. It's not like I'm having the emotion but I can feel someone else's emotion and it's really unpleasant.

I think being mindful and removing myself as much as possible certainly helps, but I'm wondering if there's a way to not reverberate with his crummy moods.

Well, we're all more sensitive and empathic to moods of people close to us. It's not like you pass a grumpy stranger on the street and that ruins your day, right?

I've found that using some of the meditation/mindfulness techniques I mentioned on other threads (breathing exercises, etc.) are helpful for managing my physiological stress when exposed to my ex's emotions. And if my own fight or flight response is tamped down, then I'm better at being rational in my choices.

Well, I definitely feel the grumpy stranger and though it doesn't ruin my day, it's nevertheless unpleasant and something I try and avoid. That's probably why I spend most of my time at home in a rural area, or around people I enjoy. It's really hard for me to be in cities--just too much stimulation with all the people, noise and activity. It's exhausting.

So it's not like it triggers my fight or flight response when it's just a crabby mood and nothing is directed at me intentionally. It's just like having to exist in a very polluted atmosphere, so yes, the two choices I now see that are available to me: 1. exit  2. use mindfulness techniques when exiting is not possible.

I'm just wondering if anyone has had success reframing these situations with being exposed to upset agitated people. I'm thinking there must be additional strategies to make it more tolerable.

Now that I posed the question, I remembered a technique I used to use long ago. I would envision myself wrapped in a cocoon of white light. I didn't have to shut down my senses to be able to tolerate and fully experience things, but I would be protected by the white light. I guess I'll give that one a try next time he gets into one of his downward spirals.

Thankfully he's on an upswing the last couple of days, so it's been a lot more pleasant to be around him.

The physiological responses are real, and you can't force them to go away, although they will (eventually) go away on their own schedule.

Another mindfulness technique is to be interested in and pay attention to what your body is doing. That might help. (One story from my mindfulness instructor was how she started getting really interested in some of those reactions... .and then while she was doing so, they went away... .and she was almost disappointed because no longer could be watching them!

Longer term, I'm going to guess that as you consistently protect yourself in those situations, your body may come to trust you... .and realize that it really doesn't have to worry about somebody being upset around you. 'Tho I suspect it will take a LONG while to really get there.

Thanks, GK. It's like one of life's conundrums: trying to avoid something often enhances it. If I lean into it and pay attention to what I'm feeling in my body--and also use the technique flourdust mentioned of being aware of five visuals, four textures, three sounds, etc., in addition to my white light strategy--then I will be fully equipped with a lot of tools to allow me to remain present to the moment.

As a child, I shut down my senses because it was too overwhelming and painful. Later I thought I was Aspergers because for one, I missed a lot of interpersonal lessons because I was so shut down.

In the last few months I've been doing Neurofeedback because of a concussion I had a year ago. In the process of doing that, I've regained all the cognitive abilities that had been compromised by my head injury and also I've gotten a "tune up" on my brain functioning. In addition, I've learned that I'm one of those "highly sensitive" people who have had to create strategies to survive in a very complex modern world. As as result of that, I've created a very peaceful home environment for me to rest and recharge.

One of the goals of Neurofeedback as I proceed is to strengthen my abilities to be "out in the world" and not so overwhelmed by noise, stimuli, bright lights and most of all, other people's chaos. I'll never opt to be in those circumstances, if as my dad would say "I had my druthers", but life being what it is, I need to be able to navigate those environments.

So thanks for helping me build strategies in the meantime, as my neural abilities gradually get stronger and more able to successfully cope with modern  life and with pwBPD!

That's great! All these techniques are helpful -- like everything else, they won't work all the time, but the more you exercise them, the more you build up that "muscle" that manages your reactions.

My heart goes out to you. It’s extremely difficult to A. Not be affected by someone else’s emotions who you love, especially when you are an empath (or you wouldn’t be with a BPD in the first place) and B. When you feel totally out of control of the other persons reactions and not just adult styled centered reactions... .reactions that are so dysregulating to the BPD himself that it rubs off on you and can also be dysregulating for you. My advice would be instead of trying to help fix him or save him by talking it out, focus more on your own healthy coping strategies as trying to help others when they are dysregulating actually can be enabling. I’m not saying not to be a teammate with your partner but in this case timing is KEY. To give him attention when he’s acting out equals positive reinforcement which fuels the negative behavior in the long run. Your best bet to smooth things out is to do this style of talking you mentioned after he has calmed himself and once you are both in a good place. I know that’s a tough sweet spot to find with a BPD but there are moments of adulthood in them or you wouldn’t have any reason to hold on. So pay attention to the silver lining aka that moment where he presents like an adult and try to talk to him then versus during an argument or right afterward :) hope that helps

As for skills to regulate your physiological reactions, I’ve found that holding I’ve for 2-3 minutes really helps calm down the fight or flight response in you. Also, holding your breath for 20 seconds while washing your face with cold water. Anything that activates  your central nervous system will help, aside from a BPD triggering you

To respond to your q? flourdust, the anxiety I feel in his presence isn’t easily fixed. I do leave and do things and when I do, I’m happy in my own skin. But then I see him later and I feel that discomfort in the pit of my stomach.

I’m trying to figure out how to get over that.

Today I was treating one of my horses for a hoof abscess. Once he got the idea that soaking his foot in a bucket of warm water with Epsom salt felt pretty good, we hung out for a half hour doing that.

That’s something I love about animals: their ability to be fully present and relaxed, like the cat stretched out on my lap right now. I have that feeling with my friends and lots of other people—just being together in the present moment and being fully there with each other.

I thought I had that with my husband at the beginning of our relationship—to an incredible degree. But often, it’s like he’s got this intensity bubbling under the surface and he can’t relax or even be present for more than a moment with me. He’s got to do something—have a drink, watch a game on TV, listen to the radio, check something online. It’s like there’s a whirlwind of energy untamed just under the surface. He’s got to keep his mind constantly stimulated; he can’t just be.

That chaotic energy makes me uncomfortable. I want to be able to hold my own space without being a psychic sponge.

I completely empathize with how chaotic energy can affect you, especially when you are past that vibrational state and are very comfortable in your own skin.
Speaking from being in recovery from BPD myself, my partner is in your shoes... .she is an emotional sponge and although I’ve almsot mastered my physical and verbal reactions to imagined or real abandonment or other triggers... .it’s still not safe enough for her to feel fully happy because my energy still internally shifts and she can feel it. I used to blame her for not being better at coping with her anxiety, then I realized how selfish of me that was. Now today I’m working on managing my triggers and a lot of that has come through a mixture of DBT- challenging my interpretations specifically as well as accepting my higher power fully and consistently asking for help from my higher power instead of constantly burdening my partner as being with a BPD is enough of an emotionally draining responsibility. Yes, you only have control over your own actions and we can sit here and pray for your husband to change and be more understanding but sadly that may never happen and it’s hurtful to think that you have to become more desentized to anxiety provoking situations. However I commend your dedication and if you look at this as another growing platform for yourself then I even think you could be excited for the opportunities that arise where you might be susceptible to being an emotional sponge and choose to handle it differently. That shift in you may automatically shift his behavior and reactions too!

Remind yourself that in those moments where his energy becomes chaotic that he is not an adult he’s an underdeveloped child and that’s when you have to practice radical acceptance that this is where he is currently at. You are making a choice to stay and that side of him is very real. Maybe try to focus on his positive attributes when he gets into this mode. Out of pure sincerity I’m wondering what is keeping you there? Just to understand you better... .:)

To give him attention when he’s acting out equals positive reinforcement which fuels the negative behavior in the long run.

Really good point! Thanks, Gettingbetter!

holding your breath for 20 seconds while washing your face with cold water

Another good strategy! Thanks. I knew someone long ago who would leave discussions to wash his face. Perhaps that's what he was doing.  :)

I wasn't sure what you were explaining in the first part of your sentence, Gettingbetter. Was it a pattern of holding breath off and on for 2 to 3 minutes?

I completely empathize with how chaotic energy can affect you, especially when you are past that vibrational state and are very comfortable in your own skin.

Yes, it's truly a shock when I'm in my happy private Idaho and suddenly BOOM!

However I commend your dedication and if you look at this as another growing platform for yourself then I even think you could be excited for the opportunities that arise where you might be susceptible to being an emotional sponge and choose to handle it differently. That shift in you may automatically shift his behavior and reactions too!


This sounds odd, but it's only been a recent revelation to me how I've been a psychic sponge and have picked up on other's distress. I think the difference is now that I'm getting an overview and seeing patterns, rather than being lost in content. In the past, I would have been immediately addressing the substance of the disruption. (It helps to ignore language for a moment and just observe repeating patterns.)

Remind yourself that in those moments where his energy becomes chaotic that he is not an adult he’s an underdeveloped child and that’s when you have to practice radical acceptance that this is where he is currently at. You are making a choice to stay and that side of him is very real. Maybe try to focus on his positive attributes when he gets into this mode. Out of pure sincerity I’m wondering what is keeping you there? Just to understand you better... .smiley

Things have been much better between us since I've been learning new strategies both here and through individual therapy. In fact things are going so well that my psychologist has asked a couple of times if I still want to continue. So as of yesterday, I've scaled back my once a month appointments and now will see her every two months. I still enjoy going there so I can discuss things that come up and she's a lifeline to understanding my situation so I no longer need to share details with friends. Mostly things are going so well, I don't have a lot to deal with, so it's been really validating to see her as a "check up".

Thanks for your insights, Gettingbetter!

Hi Cat, I can relate to being sensitive to other people's energy and also having a BPD mother who told me I was "selfish" if I wanted or needed something from her. I can distinctly recall being disappointed at my college graduation when my classmates got congratulatory cards and gifts from their parents. I didn't even get a card. I started to cry and she looked at me with cold eyes and said "never expect a gift".  I knew better than to expect something expensive- but not even a card- that was tough.

My mother used the ST to punish us as kids. I recall sitting outside her locked bedroom door crying and pleading for her to come out. Ironically, my H used the ST at well and it felt intolerable. I used to try to get him out of his bad moods. One time on a family vacation, he didn't speak to me for days. Then, when it was over, he acted as if nothing happened.

When he was in a bad mood, it felt as if he was using all the oxygen up in the room. My own demeanor changes when he is around still at times. You have animals to take care of- and I take care of kids. With the kids, I feel carefree- when he is around, the tone seemed to change.

All this has improved with working on my own emotional stuff. The co-dependency groups have made a difference- one is the support of my first sponsor. I was on a road trip with my H and he was doing the ST. It was awful being in the car the whole time. I didn't have a phone with headphones at the time ( note to bring them on every trip!) and just sat there in silence and feeling uncomfortable. This sponsor supported me the whole way- keeping me grounded, recognizing that his stuff is his stuff and not mine to fix. He can be in whatever mood and it isn't my issue. I think I spoke to her at every gas station stop from the ladies' room where my H didn't hear the conversation.

Surprisingly, the ST didn't bother me after that. It seemed so odd that this change happened, but it didn't. Eventually he stopped using it- as it didn't work to get a response from me- I didn't react to it. Now, I am not even sure if he is doing it or not- as I tend to ignore it if he does. His moods don't really affect me much- and now, even my mother's moods don't affect me the way they used to. What has changed is me. I realized that someone else's moods are not my responsibility. This took a lot of practice but in time, I think I learned it.

The apology is a big thing. It happened in my marriage too. I don't know where we would be if he didn't realize his behavior was causing issues. I think we are fortunate that our H's are very high functioning people with milder behavior issues. I know this kind of thing is unlikely with my mother who is much more affected by BPD.  For a while this kind of thing acted like the recycle pattern- a sort of honeymoon phase- all is well now " forget the past" until the next bad mood. I would fall into it too.

I have heard " I want you to love me like you did". Well I am not sure that is the best kind of love. My head over heels co-dependent infatuation was all I knew at the time, but I think I love differently now. It's more subdued, not intense. Also menopause probably affects it too- I don't have 20 year old hormones. But what he has from me is a steady, non reactive and accepting love- and I think he has learned the value of that.

We also have some matching issues. He also feels he has to be "perfect" to be loved and I told him I wanted a real person- someone who isn't perfect - and he's learned to see that.

It takes time Cat, but I think your H may feel uneasy around you too. You do everything well and his source of self esteem- employment - is not there for him. I think there is a bit of this behind my H not helping with the house or kids much. He had a mother who did this all and he didn't learn. My mother didn't like to cook or do housework and I learned to do these things when I was a teen. He doesn't feel he has expertise in this.

Cat, I think once we do work on ourselves and our inner child- other people's moods don't bother us as much. I know you can do this!

Me too! My parents didn't buy me anything for my high school graduation (I'm forgetting about my college graduation--not sure if the same pattern repeated then). So I got my passive-aggressive revenge. I scheduled an early morning badminton class my first year at community college, hours before the busses ran in my neighborhood. I told my parents that I was going to hitch-hike to school or they could get me a car.  *)

My mother also used the silent treatment. It was really painful when I was a child and later, it was a relief. OK, don't call or write me for months! Good!

Intellectually, I know that other people's moods aren't my responsibility. What I'm working on is not feeling uncomfortable when my husband is "using up all the oxygen in the room"--a very good description, Notwendy. It hasn't happened nearly as much lately and now I'm catching myself starting to feel icky and remembering to actively utilize some strategies so that my energy doesn't dip to reverberate with his downward spiral. It's been a long time since I've tried to actively change his mood; I know he has every right to feel exactly the way he does, but it really pollutes the atmosphere and he's conscious enough not to do that with people who he wants to impress. Obviously he's got some ability to control it. I've seen photographs of him as a young teenager with that same facial expression he gets when he's in one of his black moods and I remember years ago, when we were friends before we started dating, hearing about his dark moods from other people.

The recent apology was almost humorous to me. I listened and was very polite and present and at the same time curious, wondering what on earth he was apologizing for--a recent round of grumpiness during the holidays, the disengagement he's chosen through opting for drinking instead of participating in the relationship? I didn't ask, since in the past, that has not proven to be a productive strategy. I figured if he wanted to tell me more and explore the topic, he would. Of course, he didn't.

I do see it as a possibility that he's examining his own behavior. Or it could be that in a moment of non-alcohol clarity he's realized that his behavior has something to do with me distancing myself somewhat from him. I did appreciate that he was offering an apology of sorts but, having learned better, I did not think it would change much. I guess I'm in a perennial "watch and see" mode.

Some years ago he was going through old letters and mementos and he read an excerpt of a letter from his first wife, who he married as a teenager when they were in college. The marriage didn't last long and the letter was sort of a kiss-off from a woman who was obviously very intelligent and articulate, even as a very young person. In essence it stated that he had no inclination or ability to self-reflect. As I heard him read that and it obviously was very wounding to him at the time, I thought how true it remained, even decades later.

Even if it were possible to fall "heads over heels" in love again, I would opt not to. I really don't want to have the blinders on and get hit by the proverbial Mack truck when I least expect it.

You touch on some more points that are relevant, Notwendy:
1. His desire to be "perfect" or at least seen to be "perfect" by those around him--how exhausting that must be--the search for the unattainable perfection!

2. This desire for being "loved" like how it was in the beginning--well that's a set-up destined to fail--too much information that I now hold, so it's impossible

3. Yes, the loss of tangible self-esteem from his work. It's finally occurred to me that much of what I previously ascribed to "laziness" is rather due to not knowing how to do things or feeling insecure about doing them.

I've tried a new strategy lately. The other day I had to rush off for an appointment when he had left dirty dishes in the sink and the dishwasher was still full of clean dishes that hadn't been put away. I just piled my breakfast dishes on top of his and left. Hours later when I returned, the dishes hadn't been touched, so I ignored them and finally he put away the clean dishes and loaded the dishwasher.

It pains me to ignore a mess, but I realize that this is his strategy--leave it for me and I'll clean up. The same day I ignored the pool cover becoming filled with rainwater. Usually I hook up the pump and drain it. Surprisingly he had done that in my absence.

Interesting lesson for me: if I don't do it, he might... .eventually.



 

My H will do some things too, but on his own time. Sometimes he just digs his heels in. If I ask him to take out the trash, sometimes he will do it, and sometimes the bag just sits there until he gets around to it. Some things I just don't ask. He doesn't cook- I have cooked meals since we were married, but he would refuse to help with the dishes. Eventually I just gave up. The argument would last longer than the time it takes to do them.

Sometimes I see couples on TV cooking together and then sharing the clean up. It's a nice social time together. It looks like something from another planet to me, although I did date someone before I met my H who did this with me so I know this is possible. My H was adamant about not doing this. I didn't see this as a red flag but I also didn't understand it.

His parents are very traditional. Mama cooks, dad comes to the table, eats, and then walks away to do his own thing. I also took on the traditional role in my family, but I liked the companionship of sharing meal prep and child care sometimes- even if I didn't mind taking on most  of it- but it didn't happen. It seemed very black and white with him when it came to this.

My home life was more like - we came home from school, mom was in some kind of bad mood and so Dad took us somewhere to eat and get out of her hair. So neither of us had the kind of role models for a more social meal time or teamwork over things growing up and I guess we had difficulty achieving that.

Did your H come from a very academic family or grow up in a city? He may not have been exposed to ideas like taking care of animals, yardwork, handyman skills if his family focus was on school and homework.

We take our backgrounds into our relationship and there are emotions attached. In my H's family, domestic work was strictly mama's job and daddy would have none of it. My H's idea of a man was based on this, and asking him to help in the kitchen was implying he was not manly. My mother didn't cook and so I didn't associate this with only a female role. It isn't the dishes but the emotions behind this.

Also if your H had a controlling mother, he may balk at your requests.

I've given up on asking him to do anything with the exception of very minor things that only take a couple of minutes of his time. The other day the donkey had a sore foot. I wanted to examine it thoroughly, but she was very protective of it, unlike her usual manner. Rather than tie her to something, where I thought she might freak out if she felt too confined, I asked him to hold the lead rope. He was very good at being comforting to her while I checked her out and I was very appreciative of the help.


My husband's extremely narcissistic father, yes a malignant narcissist, was a mostly-failed entrepreneur, who brought the family all over the world with him as he pursued his business dreams and furthered his academic credentials. He did not teach his son, my husband, anything about home maintenance or repair, and apparently any work done in the home was either done by his wife or servants--and his wife sure sounded like a servant from reports I've heard.

As a young man, my husband wanted to learn about cooking from his mother, but she told him that was not an appropriate activity for him to engage in. So academics and sports were the only parental approved pastimes.

His mother was a sweetheart while his father was a tyrant.

Cat- how does this sound? Academics and sports were the only way your H may have gotten anything positive from his parents- so this is his source of approval. All the things you do- he didn't do - or can't do, and doesn't have any experience of emotional reward. His motivation to do them is probably low.

The donkey- you needed his help. It wasn't something you could do alone well. Many things you ask him to do- you do better and you don't really need him. But you did this time and he probably felt he was genuinely helping you.

My H's father was verbally critical and often put my H down. I honestly think he felt threatened by my H who was very bright as a kid. My MIL did everything but my H did some "manly" things around the house. Had he so much as touched a dish to wash it, I think his dad would have been all over him calling him a namby pamby- not because he believed it but it was his way of joking around. ( not a good way).

So there is no way my H will do dishes.

An idea is to ask your H things he can feel he is really contributing and give him lots of positive reinforcement. Then he might catch on that helping you is good for him too.

This is me today! Cat - I have been on these boards for a while now and you have been here longer. I think no matter how many techniques we learn to make sure our pwBPD is treated fairly, in an understanding manner, with love and respect - we are not machines. We have feelings of our own and we have energy limits.

After 3 good weeks (we were struggling to get 10 good days) my H is now struggling again. Last night I dared mention he was letting his son disobey a rule we had set for his 2 and my 2 teens and that was it. Last night I was locked out of my own bedroom, told all the things I need to change about myself, yelled at and lectured... .you, you, you, you... .

In my head I know I should validate etc but I was tired. I told him I understood where he was coming from (he was saying I attacked him verbally even though the question was raised very calmly) but he does not hear this at all when he is elevated. Have not spoken with him today but the anxious feelings about going home are there and today are hard to calm down. I know I have the right to feel angry about being locked out of my own bedroom (thankfully my kids were at their other house) but I know there is no way I can express that without another melt down. I feel I have to keep my feeling locked away so I can try to communicate with him on a sane level.

No matter how much reading or learning I do - there will be times my feelings are overwhelming and I don't know what to do with them. I am thinking of you and hoping things have calmed down. I am planning on avoiding going home and going for a beach walk. I will tell myself I have the right to feel upset but will try not to let those feelings overtake me.

B

Instead of being who you think he needs you to be... this wonderful person that validates and "responds appropriately"... .be yourself... .be honest... .authentic, but in a healthy and succinct way.

"I'm really tired and likely won't be a good conversationalist... .can we just snuggle for a bit?"

It is on you to be prepared for him to flip out... in which case you should walk away.  Or he may just not snuggle... who knows. 

Then, next day when are no longer tired, get back in the validation game.

When your feelings are overwhelming... .own that... let your pwBPD know and then YOU go take care of your feelings, perhaps ask specifically for something your pwBPD could do for you (while not counting on it).

Thoughts?

FF

Believer, I think saying anything with a hint of correction is extremely triggering. Not that we shouldn't speak up for ourselves, but to realize the potential reaction and be prepared for it ( as much as possible ).

Sensitivity to criticism, or perceived criticism is a real dilemma. Since my H's father was verbally critical, it didn't take much to trigger a sense of shame and also a reaction. He is not likely to receive it well- and feels attacked. If he feels attacked- then he retaliated verbally. I think this is what happened with you and your H.

Sometimes this happened without any intention on my part- I may have said something - but it was heard as a "criticism" that I didn't intend. Or failed to do something that felt validating or sometimes it just seemed to happen out of nowhere. These things would take me off guard and upset me.

Until I decided that I have no control over what someone thinks. If I say the sky is blue and they feel attacked, I have no control over that. I don't feel a need to "validate" that perspective- it doesn't have any validation. I also don't engage in these conversations- I try to say something brief with a caring tone and disengage.

My 12 step co-dependency sponsor worked with me to focus on my feelings and avoid saying the word "you" to my H. This was not to walk on eggshells but to practice staying on "my side of the street"- what is possible for me to change or do, and what is not. A concept in 12 steps is "taking someone else's inventory" which is not something to do. We take our own inventory.

I have also heard terms like " you are attacking me" "you are hammering me". These sound violent and it is interesting to hear them. The reality is that I tend to be soft spoken and I am smaller than he is. The idea that I am "attacking" is odd- but if this is how he feels then he is going to be in "fight back" mode.

Reactivity is another concept. I try not to be reactive to the defense mode and focus on my feelings- making an "I" statement instead of a "you".

"I am feeling nervous in this discussion and need a moment to chill out " then be silent.

So back to letting his kid break the rule. This is tough. I think he wants his kids to like him and may have trouble saying no. PwBPD have issues with boundaries and self esteem. His kid may get angry and he may fear this. Ironically, nons and pwBPD can share some similar issues like this. So how do you say something without triggering him? You probably can't avoid the trigger, so be prepared for your response to the storm. Avoid "you" if possible. " Honey, we had an agreement about this rule for the children and I would like to discuss it". Then if he blows up- say " let's discuss this later"  and take it from there.

Some things I don't discuss without a counselor. Our MC was able to coach us through highly emotional discussions. When things escalated, I would say- let's discuss this in counseling. This was very helpful.

One great point our MC made is that- we don't have the relationship skills to have discussions about emotionally charged issues. If we did, there wouldn't be these problems. One is that I too am sensitive to my H's moods. I also get upset when I am "accused" of having mean intentions. I think most of the time my intentions are good.

Why is this? They say we match with people who trigger our own childhood issues and this gives us a chance to work on them. This changed my attitude to these episodes from fear to opportunity. I got to pay attention to my own triggers and not be so reactive to them.

Anger is a trigger. Makes sense. If BPD mother was angry, we were in trouble. That is threatening as a child. Children have few choices. As an adult, I can excuse myself from the conversation. ( this does not apply to physical abuse- that is a true danger).

I am sensitive to people's moods because I was blamed for my mother's bad moods and also expected to do something about it. However, now, I know that I am not responsible for other people's feelings. I don't have to solve or soothe them.

Once I became less reactive to other people's feelings, these episodes occur less. It's tough to let someone else manage their own bad feelings- but this is what we need to do- and we also need to learn to manage our own bad feelings when this happens.

One take-away from this thread (and the board as a whole) is that if there even is such a thing as a perfect, harmonious relationship, there definitely isn't one with a pwBPD. Each of us can figure out where our relationship is on a sliding scale from Horrid through Unpleasant to Tolerable to Pleasant Enough ... .and then decide where do you want to be on the scale ... .where can you realistically get to ... .and what kind of changes to make or tools to use to move in that direction.

Going from Horrid to Unpleasant is a basic triage skill here.

Going from Unpleasant to Tolerable or Tolerable to Pleasant Enough takes more time and effort ... .and not all relationships can move that far.

You may decide that you want to be at Pleasant Enough, but your relationship can only progress to Tolerable. Then it's up to you to determine if it's worth putting in the work to get to Tolerable, or if you should end it and move on.

Notwendy,

Would you mind sharing examples of how this has played out in your relationship.

I have taken this "stance" in my r/s and... .for the moment, it appears the result is that my social security won't be talked about at all, which I am OK with.

My wife wanted to discuss my SSDI with me and was asking me questions and then over-talking while I tried to answer.  I made an appointment with P and invited my wife, she said she would not come.  I went anyway.  She has tried to bring it up a time or two since then and I haven't engaged. 

She "believes" we "should" be able to talk about it outside of a counselor office... ."and I wasn't overtalking". 

If you could walk us through how this developed in your r/s and how often this gets used I would appreciate it.

FF

Notwendy, this is spot on!  |iiii I think our husbands had a very similar upbringing. Of course he's intimidated and unmotivated to do things for which he has no experience. I totally get that. I remember how I felt when I needed to build something and I had no experience, no help. I dove in, made a lot of mistakes, got through it, laughed when someone who knew what they were doing looked at my project crosseyed, learned how to do it better the next time. Now I'm willing to tackle lots of things and thank goodness for YouTube, I've fixed toilets, diagnosed electrical problems, etc. and can converse intelligently with contractors. But it took a long time and a lot of learning to get there. So without motivation--I get why he would be reluctant to help me.

It's kind of like mentoring a child. I wouldn't ask a kid to do something complex beyond their level of experience. But asking for help in simple ways and being appreciative, I think means a lot to him and over time will help build some sense of self-esteem that he missed in his FOO due to having such a mean and nasty father. And like your husband's father, I think my FIL was really threatened by how intelligent my H is. When he graduated from prep school at the top (the very top) of his class, his father barely attended the graduation ceremony and said NOTHING to his son.

Hi believer,
I hope things are better today. I agree with FF that you need to be honest and authentic to yourself and take time for yourself to get to a stronger place where you're not so impacted by his mood. (Easy to say, I know.)

Also, once my husband is dysregulated, I've learned that validation or any communication from me is pointless, so at that point I throw in the towel and take care of my own feelings.

I think that so many of us here feel like we can "cope" and that our immediate response is to try and "manage" our loved ones feelings, and in the process wear ourselves down by not taking care of own needs. I was trained by my BPD mother to feel responsible for her feelings and I've carried that thought through most of my life.

Conversely, who is taking care of my feelings? NOBODY, with the exception of ME, when I remember to do so. So why on earth is it my job to take care of his feelings? It's not.

So, as FF often says, take your ears elsewhere when he's yelling at you or lecturing you. "I can't discuss this right now. We can talk in the morning."

He may never be a "safe" person to share your feelings with, so hopefully you have friends and family with whom you can share or please continue to post here. But certainly when his emotions are boiling over, he will never have any interest in hearing about your feelings; it will only come across as an attack.

Thanks for asking about me. I've been doing well lately. I think I was just rundown during the holidays and as always, I deal with his seasonal depression and anger with his family. I know it's coming every year, so next year I'll plan to take more time to recharge my batteries and spend less time listening to his litany of complaints about his sisters!

Cat

Some great suggestions, Notwendy. I'm not a parent, but I dated a man who had a young daughter who twisted him around her finger. Rules meant nothing and because he only had part-time custody and wanted to be her friend, not her parent, she manipulated him expertly. Unfortunately the end result of that type of parenting didn't work out well and many years later, when she was an adult with big problems, he ran into me and confided that he wished he had listened to what I was telling him about rules and boundaries. It was a sad moment for me, but years earlier I saw the writing on the wall and decided that I wasn't going to be the wicked step mother in that family.

My husband's sensitivity to criticism occasionally allows me an internal laugh, certainly not an outward smile or any other sign. Good thing I've got a great poker face! 

Though our political feelings are generally on the same page, there are times he's much more extreme than I am, since I don't see things in black and white. If I'm not equally incensed by something, then he can interpret that as "criticism" even though in general, I agree with him. I no longer have the need or desire to defend my position, I just say something like "Interesting... ."

When I initiated marriage counseling with a psychologist a few years ago, a year or two before I joined this board, my relationship was unpleasant, bordering on horrid at times. Though we went for a year, he participated reluctantly and thought every session was an opportunity to get "beaten up on" so not much was accomplished, but our communication was marginally improved.

A year or so later, I was feeling hopeless and uncomfortable and I started individual therapy with the same woman and also joined BPD family. I was very surprised to hear my therapist's assessment that my husband was "abusive". I knew it was unpleasant, but my previous marriage had involved such extreme physical and verbal abuse that it hadn't really registered as "abusive" to me, by comparison. She also told me that my husband had a personality disorder and she saw it more as narcissism rather than BPD. I understand that he appeared more NPD to her because he saves most of the BPD stuff for private times at home.

My first few years on this board were consumed with my anger, which never really had full expression ever, due to having a perennial pwBPD in my life: mother, first husband, second husband. I had a tremendous amount of resentment that had built up, which I shared here. Thank you everyone for tolerating this.  *)

At this point, I feel rather free, which allows me a lot more creative use of the tools, since my own anger doesn't get in the way. And perhaps because I no longer have that buried, simmering resentment, my husband doesn't pick up on that anger and therefore is less defensive himself.

Also, I've learned to step away from the drama and things are going very well most of the time. My therapist has even offered to "fire" me a few times and recently I've decreased my appointments from monthly to every other month. I still like going because I want to be accountable to someone else. Perhaps my next step will be to go quarterly. It's really nice to have someone who has seen me in crisis now see me with an occasional hiccup.

For those of you wondering how your dream relationship turned into a nightmare: there can be hope. I saw that with qualifications. I don't think there was a possibility of salvaging my first marriage. That husband was physically abusive, a cheater, a law breaker. I thank my lucky stars that I got away alive.

FF, I will try to explain, but I think one difference is that your wife wants to talk to you and in my situation, I was the one wanting to talk about things. Perhaps this is a bit Venus and Mars- where it is said women deal with things through talking first and men tend to take action. I don't think all stereotypes apply all the time, but it was the case with us.

One issue is that you brought your wife to your counselor. I naively tried this. I was in counseling and wanted my H to come too.  The session was my desperate attempt to fix issues. His impression was that the counselor and I were in kahoots and I brought him there so we could gang up on him. He refused to go to MC for many years. After my father passed away, our marital issues escalated. I think - with grief- I didn't have the level of emotional attention/enabling behavior in our marriage. Honestly -at the time, I just didn't give a darn and my H must have sensed a difference and so he finally agreed. 

I let him pick the MC.  She focused on me. I got the "label" - codependency. The MC had to be someone I did not meet before or know before. I also avoided any private consultation with her to avoid the "gang up " impression.

The things I won't talk about without help from the MC are typical ones:

Finances are tough to discuss and we did discuss them in MC and come to an agreement but he didn't follow through. I had to accept that we have differences in ideas about how money should be managed and he's not going to change.  It is also hard for me to intervene as he is the main wage earner. But thankfully we do meet our needs and  the kids will be able to attend college and that means a lot to me- so I don't make an issue out of the rest. Your situation is different as your wife has made decisions that could potentially harm your financial stability and I think the solution ( albeit difficult ) is to have firm boundaries on the money you get from SSI

Sex- forget talking about that.

So how do I not talk about these things? First, I don't bring them up. If he does, I focus on me with "I" statements

"I don't think I can talk about this without the help of MC, let's make an appointment"

Sometimes he'd start talking and I would just clam up. " I am feeling uncomfortable and need a time out".  Yes, things could escalate after that,  but it takes two to participate. I just stopped my side of it.

I became aware of what is "drama bait"- a topic or statement that could draw my attention into a heated or circular discussion. This is a familiar and reinforcing pattern. I used the addiction model for this. I don't have issues with drugs or alcohol, but I learned to see this as my addiction- so desperate for intimacy that I'd even get into this for it. Perhaps also a form of intimacy to him- if I placed all my attention on this in the moment. And an emotional rush as well. So I learned to see this as relationship drugs- and that I had to stay emotionally sober for my own sake.

You are all so wise.
I feel the anger and resentment still and I know it makes me defensive with my h. We are still in the unpleasant bordering on horrid stage I guess, and I see my role in it.
I think I can learn a lot from this post. I am often boundary-less and I like notwendy’s addiction model. I still get drawn into the circular arguments and I think you’re right, I’m searching for more intimacy.

So, when you stop talking and offer MC talk, does he go now?  Are you able to talk through things there to some sort of resolution.

FF

Yes, he does. It was helpful. She acted like a moderator but she also coached us with how to discuss things. We have not been in a while- he has actually learned better.

Why? there are several factors- I think one is that I don't think he has full blown BPD like my mother has- I see traits in him that also fit my own issues, but I don't think they are unsurmountable. Maybe some people would, but having been raised by the extreme ( and it was, believe me) my situation seems mild. Since doing this kind of work though, I have actually gotten through to my mother as well, which seems just amazing- but I am not married to her and don't live with her, so the relationship is much different.

What happened though felt a bit like the little red hen. I did a lot of work, relatively more personal work than he did.  He is not really willing to be introspective or look at himself, at least not being forthcoming with it. It triggers a lot of shame to look at his own mistakes but I think he does it in private.

The MC was very wise to focus on me. It did make me feel angry and that it was unfair to be the target and not address some obvious behaviors on his part, but she knew that if she did, he would walk out and not come back, like the session I tried before with my counselor.

She fit him well- shared his sense of humor. It didn't hurt that she is pretty. Yes, she is very professional but he took a liking to her and seemed willing to work with her. She has a male partner who we could also see- but he refuses to see a man. I think a male would be very bad for him as he would see his critical father in him.

When I think of my BPD mother as an example, she sees people as either on "her side" or "not her side" and the same with therapists. Therapists have not been effective with her- she is too affected and truly believes nothing is wrong with her and everything is someone else's fault. But she was willing for a bit to see a T about my father's issues and stated "this T is on my side". Whether she was or not, if my mother perceived this, she was more likely to respond. I do think that with couples- working with the issues for either one gets results for both. When the T was talking to me, she was really talking and coaching us both- but my H could listen and not feel he was on the spot.

So FF- if you wish to try this- it may mean letting your wife choose the T and being the focus as "your issues" are brought up. Of course, this means a qualified insightful T so IMHO you might want to avoid the pastor route- as this takes experience and skill and a pastor is skilled in other things- the focus of that work even if they have counseling skills- you've been this route before. If she prefers a Christian T, there are Christian T's with professional credentials who work as T's - not pastors.

Let her also consider the gender and personality and see who might fit your wife well. Gender has nothing to do with competence but perhaps comfort level. Once your wife feels comfortable with someone and feels he/she is on "her side" she may be more amenable to talking. However, talking doesn't mean compliance. My H agreed with the ideas for financial discussions in the sessions, but he isn't going to do it. I do bring up some things- and get the expected reaction ( circular argument, criticisms, etc) but the best thing the MC taught me was to stay calm and not react. Table it, try again later. Eventually we got to it but the key is I have to stay calm the whole time and not react to the drama bait ( distraction )

Strategically... .I've done my work and gotten to a place I'm fine with not talking about it.  I can handle my finances and medical care just fine... .perhaps better... without interference.

Now that the discussion is firmly about ethics and accountability with counselors and pastors... .anyone really... .my wife is very shy to get into any situation with oversight and accountability. 

I do totally understand and empathize that looking at her own stuff is not the most pleasant thing to do. 

Also, the thing about being on sides is a big deal for her.

We'll see.

FF

This gives me a chuckle, Notwendy, because it was exactly my experience with MC. I'm glad you found a therapist that your husband was comfortable with.

This kahoots business must be something common with personality disorders, namely BPD. When I took my mother to a lawyer to draw up a trust, she was convinced that I was scheming with him and was planning on taking everything she owned and turning her out on the street to be a bag lady. She even concocted a story that his secretary injected her with some mind control drug so that she would be compliant and sign the papers.

Yes, the "sides" thing is omnipresent in every discussion that my husband has with me about conflicts with other people. If I (stupidly) try and explain what I think their motivation might have been for what they said or did, then I'm automatically on "their side". It's happened enough that I now just keep my mouth shut and ask him to clarify what he's thinking and feeling and he gets bored talking about it. 

That's crazymaking. I don't see it as much with my H as I do with my mother. I think it is part of the drama triangle- someone is either in persecutor ( not my side) or rescuer mode- while she is in victim mode.

This model really helped me see how someone with BPD interprets things.

I also learned in my 12 step groups that adult children are sensitive to criticism- which means we can be sensitive as well. The family dynamics in an alcoholic family are similar to those in a family with a disordered person. Family members take on roles of rescuer/enabler in both family types.

If we feel criticized or have hurt feelings as a result of something our spouses or parent said or did, it is difficult to get that situation resolved as then the other person is not in victim mode. I think when they are doing/saying the mean things, they feel they are in victim mode and are just defending themselves and either don't see that what they are doing is hurtful or feel justified to hurt back.

I wonder, Cat, if when your H is in a bad mood, he is perceiving himself in victim mode.

Sometimes it isn't even intentional when we say or do something. Once I got this model to use, some of the behaviors began to make sense and it helped me not be reactive to them. I distinctly recall a conversation where I gave some advice to my mother and she just went wild " You are telling me I am not competent" and it made no sense. In the past, this would have hurt my feelings and I would have reacted back from a hurt place. Two people in Victim mode is a recipe for a circular argument. Sometimes my H would perceive what I said or did as a criticism or rejection when it wasn't meant to be and react as well. I was walking on eggshells fearing this reaction- but once I could recognize it and not take it personally the dragged out issues seemed to diminish.

I also had to watch my own sensitivity and what kinds of things upset me when they are not personal or intentional. We may not have the same reactions or behaviors but we do share some overlapping traits with our spouses. Something to think about.

The "two people in victim mode" comment struck home to me. 

Knowing that my wife lives there, the dust up I had last night seems to make sense when I look at it as me being "hurt" and going into victim mode, which freaked my wife out so she doubled down or potentially switched to persecutor.

The details of the dustup would just take up space (accusations against me to my children... in front of me... .with me stating it was inappropriate for kids to hear or be part of)  She seemed to claim she was loving God by doing it.  (you guys can fill in the other few paragraphs)

FF

Yup, victim mode/drama triangle stuff also explains why I was never allowed to be ill in front of him.  He would either be in denial, ignore me, or persecute me.

Yes, in retrospect, this started a downward spiral early in my marriage.

When I met my H, I was in caretaker overdrive. I didn't know this was a problem. Growing up in my FOO, that was my role since my preteens. I also observed my father do this. This was my normal: "if you love someone this is what you need to do to get love and approval".

This must have appealed to my H who early on was the recipient of all this caretaking. Somehow I got the idea that if I did this- I might get more love. That didn't even work well in my FOO, but I also learned that you do not dare ask for any of this in return from BPD mom so I didn't.

Then, we started a family. I was not a happy pregnant woman. I loved the results ( the babies) but not the nausea, fatigue, and indigestion. I assumed my H could see that this was not about him, but a temporary phase for wonderful reasons. In the movies, I saw husbands help out- so why not him?

I had no clue that, in this situation ,I was taking "victim" perspective, not in a hurt way but as a person needing him to understand and help. To him, what he saw was a decrease in caretaking, less desire for sex ( falling asleep as soon as my head hit the pillow at night, or nausea in the morning) and took this as a cold hearted rejection. His reasoning: if you loved me you would overcome how you feel. Since I didn't, I didn't love him.

To me, I saw him switch into cold and cruel at a time I needed him to be supportive. I had absolutely no idea why and this puzzled me . Then I took victim position. This started years of conflict, drama triangle and hurt feelings between both of us.

It is better now that this model helps me to not take these things personally- and to not react like it did.

Yeah, I feel like I've totally stepped into it when baited with one of these "so and so said/did this and it made me feel bad and I wondered why they'd say/do that" then I've said, "oh, they probably meant blah, blah, blah" and then suddenly we're on the drama triangle with me being the Persecutor "defending" the other party.


I think victimhood is his perennial go-to place. It doesn't take much--maybe someone at the post office isn't as friendly some day. Then boom!


Yeah, I've had to "harden" my shell around my husband. This is diametrically opposed to what I think a romantic relationship should be. There's that damn "should". However, I'm a pragmatist. And I don't like feeling vulnerable and easily hurt. Intellectually I understand and can distance myself, but emotionally I grieve that I will never feel truly "safe" around this person.

I felt I had to have a hard shell too- for a long time- years actually. Lately though I feel like the shell is about right- not too soft like it used to be but not too hard either. I know I felt unsafe- but ( there is no risk of physical abuse ) I don't feel unsafe now. I may not like it if things get wierd- but somehow the crazy stuff doesn't seem personal to me like it did.

I know the tools say to validate but sometimes when I hear something that just sounds bizarre - that's what I think. I have even responded "that sounds insane ". It just slipped out.  I guess I wasn't guarded and it came out in a lighthearted way. There wasn't the typical reaction.

I think they can sense when we are being guarded and when we are being authentic. My wish is to be authentic as much as possible - and it is hard work but also I am who I am and if I like me- then if someone doesn't like me it doesn't change that.

I'm not perfect but I don't need to be perfect to like myself. I don't expect anyone else to be perfect either but I don't want to be mistreated. I think this is how "normal" people with regular boundaries are.  If someone says something to them that doesn't make sense - they don't try to see how that could be about them. If someone is in a bad mood- it's their bad mood not ours.

Your H is pretty high functioning. He may get pissy but he isn't going to hurt you physically. I admit I am not there with my mother - there is a lot more history there but I am there sometimes. It's always a work in progress- but Cat-  you are a strong person- his moods can become more like annoyances than something that affects you- and you might be more relaxed around him.

It's easy for me to have good boundaries around other people, but FOO patterns dictated that all boundaries are dropped around loved ones. I've gotten past that, but still there's a shred of belief that in a romantic relationship, there should be enough trust and openness that one can be more transparent. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case when one partner has BPD. I can be waaaay more candid with my female friends.


LOL! Yes, it's really shocking when a highly intelligent, seemingly normal (for the most part) husband can say something that sounds cray cray.


It's one thing to have intellectual understanding, quite another to have the autonomic nervous system suddenly take over. I'm working on utilizing strategies to override those moments.

Cat,  I have been reading this post and can so relate to the holidays, moods, etc.  Glad to hear that things are some better and you are able to stay in your own lane, so to speak, to achieve some peace

Just an additional note about MC.  My husband and I were separated and he agreed to go to just about anything to get back together.  I was seeing a female therapist and he didn’t want to see her, as she already knew me and he suspected that she would take “my side”.  So I found a male counselor that neither of us knew, and he was covered by our insurance.  He didn’t show up to the first appointment but I did.  So I met the therapist.  He went to the second appointment and felt judged.  Third appointment, in his opinion, the therapist was against him and it was BS. 

Also, I agree that seeing our part in the drama triangle enables us to step out of it and take a different action.

Lately, I’ve been studying “Don’t Let Your Emotions Run Your Life”.  The DBT techniques are strong tools and have helped me improve my communication.

I enjoy reading your posts and wish you the best!

Mustbe

*mod*

This thread has been locked due to reaching it's size limit.  The host is welcome to begin a new thread in order to continue with this topic.

Thanks for your understanding.