BPDFamily.com

Long story short: I lied about going on porn. For months. I told her I wasn't using it, and I was. I genuinely thought I was done with it when we first started our relationship, and it unexpectedly crept back in.

The more stress and drama in the relationship, the more I'd resort to porn. Now there's another possibility: that I would just continue to use porn occasionally in any relationship. That I don't see anything wrong with having "me time" and I don't want to feel strangleholded, and like I'm committing a sin for masturbating. She's even gone so far as to ask me what I imagined when I masturbated and then accused me of thinking of other girls and said she couldn't tolerate being with someone who would disrespect her so much that they would think of other women when they masturbated. And that she only ever thinks of me, and she expects me to only think of her in return.

I apologized for lying. I said it was wrong. And I asked if she would forgive me for it. That unleashed a tirade of her accusing me of not feeling I actually did anything wrong, and that I also needed to apologize for disrespecting her, and ask for forgiveness for that too.

I go silent, because I don't know what to make of it. I feel resentful. But then I know that anything I say that is short of groveling and begging will just unleash another tirade. The consequence is that by going silent, she accuses me of abusing her, and giving her the silent treatment. She says I'm punishing her for expressing her feelings. And then uses that to further accuse me of being a sociopath/narcissist/inhuman etc., and "proof" that I don't care about her, that I abandoned her, that I "treat her like ___," and so on.

And so I stay silent. It doesn't help that this is my first relationship, and I also have conflicted feelings about porn. I don't know if I myself think it's good or bad, or neutral. I can understand why someone would be upset with another person for using porn while in a relationship. Or masturbating to fantasies of someone else.

At the same time, I feel horribly invaded, violated, disrespected, and beaten down. I've told her that, and the only response is that SHE is the one who is all of the above, and that it's all my fault. If I try to mention my feelings, then it turns into "You always make everything about you" and "My feelings never matter to you. I'm never allowed to express myself."

A huge fear for me is what if I really am wrong? Can someone tell me if I'm crazy or not? I don't feel she's unreasonable in feeling hurt, but I feel that her demanding me to FEEL bad, and that an apology isn't enough... .makes me feel like I'm losing my mind. My self-identity is pretty shaky to begin with and I am only more confused now, wondering if all these things she's saying about me are actually true.

Does anyone know what is really going on here? Is it simpler than I think it is?

When you apologized and asked for forgiveness did she accept or reject your apology?

The she grant or deny forgiveness?

After that info... .I should be able to guide you better.


As far as ST:  "Hey babe... I'm sure you would agree that words can hurt.  I need some space to think things through.  It would mean a lot to me for you to give me some peace and quiet to think."

Say it in a friendly manner.

Did she catch you online?  What happened?  Please consider her point of view... .not to agree with it... .but to understand it.  How would you feel if you tried to be a "beast of a man" one evening and she whipped out pictures of men with bigger... .you know... .than you have... .more muscles... .bigger and furrier mustaches... .etc etc and stared lovingly at them for a minute or two while you waited?

Said another way... .while you are sorting things out about porn... .can you make sure... .I mean sure... .that she doesn't "bump into it" or get confronted by porn?  That's not going to go well... .

FF

I'll fill you in on some of the typical female attitudes toward porn. For one, it's made by men, for men--generally. And what turns men on is often rather different than what turns women on. In the old days, porn actually had a storyline and people played a role before stripping off their clothes.

How do I know this? Well, my ex-husband and I were houseguests, visiting an old friend of his in San Francisco. The next day, unbeknownst to us, his friend's girlfriend had hired out their very lavishly furnished house with an incredible view--to a porn company for a film shoot. So as I'm eating breakfast in the dining room, the cameraman is setting up and the director is discussing the "plot" with the "actors". During the filming, the director is whispering directions to the "actors" and it's all very male-oriented as to how the woman is supposed to behave and the director actually got angry when she seemed to be enjoying herself too much and not paying as much attention to her "co-star".

Anyway, other than that day, I haven't seen much porn. From what I hear the newer stuff cuts out all the extraneous talking and gets right down to the action. Apparently this is preferable to male viewers, while women might prefer having a storyline which explains why these people are taking off their clothes.

I think for women, one of the biggest problems with porn is that the actresses usually have beautiful bodies, perfect hair and makeup and women feel "less than" in comparison if their man is watching that.

I don't have a moralistic judgment about porn, other than some people use it like an addiction. That doesn't seem healthy. Another possible problem is unrealistic expectations from a real life relationship. Bodies aren't always beautiful. Sometimes bodies don't work quite right. And then there are emotions connected to sexuality, rather than just pure sex. And probably for women a big objection might be that it takes a while sometimes to get turned on and I would bet that you never see that in porn. 

And you learn something new everyday... .never would have thought Cat Familiar was part of filming an adult film... .

Yeah... couldn't stay quiet... .

FF

Something I learned is that watching porn is not compatible with eating. 

Also I was very hesitant to sit on that couch again. 

   :) :)

Nice work...

FF

Hahahaha Cat... .

I can speak a little bit from personal experience on this one for what it’s worth. In theory I do not object to masterbation or pornography. I make no moral judgements if it is kept in context.

But it can complicate a relationship. My ex husband (not BPD) had a porn addiction. I only found this out after our sex life had dwindled down to nothing and I accidentally walked in on him. And you bet your bottom dollar that got in my head. I didn’t want to make him feel bad so I tried initially to keep my insecurities to myself. But I turned it inward. I kicked up my training. I started dieting.  Not because I “needed” to, but because I was afraid that he no longer wanted me because I wasn’t “as good” as his porn women somehow. It was a really hard  time. Eventually we were able to have a conversation that helped me understand what he was struggling with, and where I was able to express how much it hurt me. In the end we worked hard and that issue was mostly overcome. It was not why my marriage ultimately ended.

Is she being completely rational about this? No. Is her high emotionality being triggered? Absolutely. Should you be feeling shame and made to suffer? Absolutely not.

But I can relate to the insecurity that is at the root of her current behaviors.

I am probably NOT the one to give advice on how to handle the discussions that you are probably facing with your BPD. But I guess I would encourage you as much as possible to make sure she knows you love HER. That you’re attracted to HER. That she is good enough. Because I know for myself that once I had that reassurance, I felt infinitely better.

Good luck!

I love hijacking threads!  :) 


I just don't get it... .how on earth can a guy put himself in a situation where he is going to get "caught" (I often wonder if it's purposeful) looking at a computer and... .you know... .

Everybody put on your adult caps...

Seriously... like... .that has never occurred to me to do that while my wife was home.  Tons of times I've walked out and either given a cave man look... .or a wink... or... whatever... .if there is a "need".

I'm also not going to suggest that I've never used porn.  Hello... .Navy deployments... .wife on other side of the world (literally).

Then... there is the reality in my r/s... my wife sent me porn.  I flipped out...

Sigh... .

What a world we live in

FF

Haha FF... .in my ex husband’s case, I had left for work and needed to turn around halfway there to retrieve something I’d forgotten that I could not be without that day. So he definitely was not expecting that he would be caught anymore than I was anticipating what I walked into.

Indeed, what a world.

Right and wrong are a difficult thing to answer on this board as there no agreed upon authority to answer the question.  However, from a Christian point of view, Mathew 5:27-28 says,
You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery." But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Does that mean that most men (probably adults in general) commit biblical adultery about 10x a day?

The average man will spend almost 43 minutes a day staring at 10 different women.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5970007/Men-spend-a-year-staring-at-women.html

 
My understanding is the scripture is an illustration that our actions flow from our heart and start in our heart. 

The "heart" being the important thing in scripture that we are commanding to "protect" since all things "flow from it".

I do NOT believe that Jesus is equating or conflating actual adultery (sexual intercourse) with gazing lustfully at a woman in person.  Or sitting around "imagining" a woman that you have seen before or have created in your mind.

Don't infer me to say Jesus is suggesting lustful thoughts are NOT sinful... .

FF

The discussion got a little sidetracked, sorry. To answer your questions:
No, you're not crazy. These are some pretty complicated feelings for any relationship, particularly more-so for a person with BPD. Yes, she seems to want you to feel bad--also not an unusual component of a BPD relationship. And she's probably not going to give an inch on this topic.

People with BPD have so much internal shame and sometimes they feel better if they can induce shame in their partners so they don't feel so alone in this.

In my opinion, you have nothing to apologize for, other than lying. I don't think there's any harm in watching porn and pleasuring yourself, especially when things aren't going well in your relationship. That said, it shouldn't become an excuse for not working things out in real life.

You and everyone else needs private time. All you can do is offer an apology, which you've done. If the topic comes up again, you can say that you're with her because you find her attractive and you want to be in a relationship with her. Do not tell her any more information about anything that has to do with watching porn. That way you don't have to lie to her. It's none of her business.

We humans are visually attracted to more people than just our significant others. That's just biology. We do have the choice of acting upon it or not. As long as you're not seeking out other women to have sex with, I really don't think there's anything you've done wrong.

I have never been caught. I have never gone on porn when I was with her or in the same house as her. I would never do that.

She stole my phone and went through everything and found porn I had looked up online. That was months ago. And also, I've simply admitted it, because she'll grill me about it relentlessly.

"What do you think about when you masturbate?"

":)o you look at porn? Have you looked at porn in the past six months? Have you looked at pictures of naked women?"

She won't take "no" for an answer and lying was destroying my soul, so I just started telling her that yes, I do go on porn. It was killing me to lie constantly and I have prided myself on not lying about anything. That's changed a lot in this relationship, which is my fault. But I do have deep rooted resentment now for feeling like I've been put into a position for the first time in my life where I felt it was necessary to lie at all. I do not feel it's fair to put the blame 100% on me for lying, when her extreme overreactions to me telling the truth have worn away at me so much. It's not like I'm gaining anything out of lying. My mistake was trying to avoid conflict and being passive, not in being manipulative and lying for my own benefit, which is what she thinks I've been doing. For some reason. Someone please tell me what f***ing trophy I won, because I don't see any.

Maybe I'm a freak, but if I found her looking longingly at guys more well endowed than I am, or with bigger muscles, or more facial hair, or whatever, I wouldn't care. I would not trade any part of my body in for anything else. And I'm in currently in the worst shape of my life. Maybe I am a narcissist but sometimes when I've watched porn I just think "thank God I'm me." I don't WANT to be another guy or look different or have different whatever. I am me. And I'm happy about that. How messed up would it be to be having sex and wishing I looked different or had different this or that?

I am 100% there in sex. This is my body and she gets all of it. She doesn't share that security.

I don't feel threatened by other guys, whether it's pixels on a screen or guys in real life.

However, I guess that confidence doesn't translate completely because if it did, I would be out getting other girls and not even dealing with this nonsense. Yet here I am. But I do not share her insecurity about any of that stuff at all.

She did not accept the apology, by the way. She said it wasn't enough and that it didn't matter because I didn't *feel* bad.

Anyway, hopefully more soon. I'm actually dealing with a crisis situation with her right now, again at the wee hours of the morning when I should be sleeping. Not worth sacrificing my health for. Locking my doors and bracing myself to ignore her when she comes knocking at the door.

Just another example of her being inconsiderate. All the things she accuses me of. And yet something as basic as my right to privacy is completely disrespected.

I still don't know how I feel about porn, really. I would much rather have sex with real women. Any day of the week. But in a relationship like this where my sexuality feels like it's being scrutinized and controlled and categorized it makes it awfully hard to want to have sex regularly.

Porn is just a release. It isn't even in the same realm as sex to me. I've explained that to no avail. And it doesn't seem to have occurred to her either that when she's being more reasonable and isn't trying to piledrive me into the ground with guilt and shame, I'm much more interested in sex.

I'm just pissed because this is my first girlfriend, and I can only imagine what it would be like to be with someone more stable. Like maybe being interested in sex all the time, and not wanting to avoid it because of emotional outbursts, insults, shaming and guilt tripping, etc.?

Thanks for the replies so far, guys. I appreciate it. Sorry to be so random and all over the place but it's late and I'm not thinking straight. Hopefully some of the stuff I wrote here clarified the situation a little bit.

Probably not  

When anyone (pwBPD or not) grills you and demands an answer, you don't have to lie.

"I'm not going to discuss this question further... " is not a lie.  You are stating your truth.  They have no "right" to know.

This applies to "porn" or "any subject".  If they won't leave you alone, use boundaries.

Eventually they will get the message. 


Said another way, just because I have a sexual relationship with someone, doesn't "mean" that they have a "right" to know every thought I have ever had or will have about a sexual matter.

Thoughts?

FF

To respond to more of the issues you've brought up:

No, you don't come across as a narcissist. You appear to have a good self image and are content with who you are.  |iiii

I totally understand why you lied in the first place. You knew how she would react and you were correct. Like formflier says, you don't need to discuss this with her. None of her business.

This is something that pwBPD don't understand. They often feel entitled to run over our boundaries about our selves, our thoughts, our feelings. All you can do is say, "I'm not going to talk about this" and repeat as necessary. Undoubtedly it will infuriate her, but if you don't give an inch, it will let her know that you have a right to your privacy and that will help you with future issues.

I assume you're young, since this is your first girlfriend. However you write with a lot of maturity. Please carefully consider that this is how it is now with her, how do you imagine the future might be? If you become more committed to her? If you marry and or have children with her? Is this a person you want to spend your life with?

So many of us here got involved with partners with BPD because in the beginning they were charming, the sex was incredibly good, and then BOOM, we were faced with a shrieking crazy person out of the blue.

There are lots of healthy women out there. If you haven't met one yet, please consider doing a bit of counseling and find out what keeps you from finding a woman who would really appreciate a thoughtful intelligent fellow like you.

"Said another way, just because I have a sexual relationship with someone, doesn't "mean" that they have a "right" to know every thought I have ever had or will have about a sexual matter."

Agreed. Also agreed that people with BPD don't understand things like this and think it's their right to have access to and inject themselves into every single part of your life.

"I assume you're young, since this is your first girlfriend. However you write with a lot of maturity. Please carefully consider that this is how it is now with her, how do you imagine the future might be? If you become more committed to her? If you marry and or have children with her? Is this a person you want to spend your life with?"

I'm almost 30, but before this, all I had was a small handful of one night stands. The future for me was looking pretty bleak. With this girl, I thought it was pretty clear I was just trying to dip my d*** in the water (excuse the metaphor but I couldn't resist... .so much for being mature I guess!), but I ended up getting shoved into the deep end. Part of the "deep end" is that for someone like me, with a history of low self-esteem and loneliness directly pertaining to sex, having a girl be so into me sexually is intoxicating. It's something I felt I was missing for a long time and thinking about giving it up is extremely difficult for me.

I think she knows that, even if only subconsciously. I used to think it was pathological, me wanting validation and all that, but now I realize it's normal. I felt like I was on cloud 9 after the few one night stands I did have years ago. I can still remember them clearly. I thought I must be a narcissist or be riddled with self-esteem issues because I felt so good getting compliments during and after hookups, until I realized that that's NORMAL.

I was just so deprived of sex that I developed maybe a more sensitive appetite for these things. A greater appreciation for them, but also a greater fear of losing them, which is what I'm dealing with now. So while craving and enjoying sexual validation is normal, I think it's exaggerated for me due to the deprivation I went through, and the current fear of loss and experiencing that deprivation again.

I think maybe that's leading me to have porous boundaries, and concede on many things that healthier people wouldn't. 

After all, it is me who is choosing to stay in this relationship, and the hardest question for me to answer isn't what's wrong with her, but why am I choosing to stay in it?

What is my deal? Why am I with someone that I'm having these issues with? Why am I putting up with it? That is the really hard part.

I really, REALLY need to remind myself that I don't have to lie. "I'm not going to discuss this further." Just have to stand my ground with it.

This is kind of like a trial by fire for people like me who are not naturally assertive. Because BPD's will have ZERO respect for your basic assertive rights. I've had enough issues recognizing my own assertive rights, and it's sure as hell a test of them every day. I've learned that I'm not comfortable in my own skin yet, at least not being assertive. Gonna take practice and commitment.

Crunchtime,
    I want to step away from the specific "offense" because that specific topic can get pretty loaded.  Here are my observations (drawn mostly from the sections I highlighted from your original post).

You lied to her.
She caught you in a lie.
You are sorry for deceiving her and have apologized for doing so.

That portion is good and, while it would have been better to not lie in the first place, a sincere apology and intention to no longer lie to her is what is called for in order to restore trust.  It may take some time for that trust to be fully restored (immediate trust is difficult for anyone who has been wronged, BPD or non), but there should be a statute of limitations on the distrust as long as you are faithful to your promise to not lie to her any longer.

Now we get to what I think it the real crux of the issue - There were two offenses.  The one you are addressing with your apology is the lying, but you also did something that causes her pain. 

I have to say that I am glad that you did not apologize for viewing porn if you are not committed to no longer doing so.  I also totally understand how your pwBPD feels an apology for lying about doing something that is hurtful is not enough to make her feel safe.  When I read your retelling of what happened, I hear "I lied about doing something I knew would hurt her.  I feel conflicted, but somewhat justified in doing that hurtful thing (I, in fact, believe that it's possibly her fault that I do the hurtful thing) and I feel persecuted because she expects more than just an apology for lying about hurting her.  She actually wants me to feel that it was wrong of me to do the hurtful thing."

I know BPD amplifies these scenarios 10,000x, but if I were advising a friend in a "healthy" relationship in a similar situation, I'd highlight the following:

You lied - not a good thing in any relationship.  You've taken a big step in apologizing for those lies and you can't continue to lie.

You are doing something that hurts her.  You have two options (you just eliminated the third by promising not to lie about it). 

1.  You can stop doing the thing that hurts her.  You don't have to decide whether the behavior is right or wrong in and of itself.  You just have to decide that it's wrong because it hurts her and value her feelings above your right to partake in that behavior.
2.  You can continue the behavior that hurts her, but do so openly and honestly.  You don't have to rub it in her face, but you do have to be honest that you are going to continue in this behavior.  That gives her the option of choosing whether she values the relationship enough to try to tolerate or get past the pain that behavior causes.

    You may not feel that the porn use/masturbation is disrespecting her as a woman/your partner.  I don't feel unbiased enough on this topic to argue that point with you.  What I do feel is disrespectful is resenting her for recognizing that you are not apologizing for a behavior that hurts her and are getting dangerously close to blaming her for "forcing" you to hurt her.  "The more stress and drama in the relationship, the more I'd resort to porn."

    I suggest you take a step back and decide whether this relationship is important enough to you to put aside your rights and desires in this area.  If it's not, be honest and face the consequences of that decision. 

BeagleGirl

 
When you asked for forgiveness... .did she say yes... or no?  Or in anyway address that specifically? 

From the story it seemed liked you asked and she let loose with a BPDish rant/talk?

 
Switching gears:   BG brings up some good points.  I would add that thinking "I was going to be done with porn (or anything else really) and "it crept back into the relationship" is giving porn the power and potentially casting yourself in the role of a victim with no choices.

I'm not saying this to beat you up, I'm saying this so you might reflect on other areas of your life, other relationships and see if you regularly take up "positions" on the drama triangle.

pwBPD seem to do this all the time and many of the "nons" that get involved with them like to do this as well.

persecutor, victim, rescuer 

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle


Think about it.

FF

I was just watching a film on TV and during a saucy bit I had a flash back to the early days of my marriage. We used to watch a lot of films, cuddled on the sofa or sitting at the standard ends predetermined by months of standard positioning... .anyway, every time there was a hint of nudity or rumpy my W would check to see if I’d got arroused by it. She would be angry with me if I had and that night, as far as she was concerned, any advances by me would solely be attributable to the film not any natural attraction to her... .to make things worse she would suggest watching open together, then do the same thing! I think she expected me to completely detach any human instincts and be some imascalated individual. I think she would rather me have been repulsed by every other living (and dead) female. I doubt anything has changed, she just doesn’t verbalise it.

How is having a feeling disrespectful? If anything, this is what really leads to my resentment with her: the feeling that having my own, individual feelings is inherently disrespectful of her. Feelings including resentment. I don't see how feeling something can be disrespectful.

That is primarily what I'm wary of: any time I feel something, it's not OK. She takes it as a personal attack.

I think it's important to not confuse my going on porn with hurting her, either. Is that really the case? I think it's rather silly to think I was "hurting" her by going on porn in the privacy of my own home before bed, on occasion. She has even gone so far as to accuse me of disrespecting and hurting her by thinking of girls other than her when I masturbate -- without the use of porn.

She asked me point blank, ":)o you ever think of anyone but me when you masturbate?" I got quiet, and didn't know how to answer. I knew if I said "Yes" she'd lose her mind, so I just stayed silent. I didn't want to lie again. Then after a few minutes I get in response, "I can't believe I'm with someone who would dare to disrespect me so much that they would think of anyone else when they think about sex. I can't believe this is happening to me."

Where is the line drawn? Am I supposed to feel guilty for "hurting" her because I masturbated in the privacy of my own home, to fantasies that didn't include her? And the only way she finds out is because she grills me about it over and over until I tell her the truth she says she wants so badly?

I have never accused her of forcing me to go on porn, or forcing me to imagine having sex with other girls. But she has certainly attempted to violate my privacy to such a degree to where I am now confused about what is OK to have private in my life.

Tough question. I didn't even think of it as putting my rights and desires aside for the relationship. When you put it like that, it doesn't sound appealing at all. I am not a fan of the idea of compromising myself or who I am for someone else.

@ formflier:

She did not address my apology specifically. I asked her if she could forgive me for lying to her and hurting her, and her response was something like, "You don't even feel like you did anything wrong."

And to me, it's like... .well, of course I did. Lying to her and hurting her because of that lie was wrong. And I felt bad enough about that to apologize for it.

She didn't accept it or acknowledge it, just said "You don't even feel like you did anything wrong," even though I said I do feel I did something wrong by lying to her. Then she comes back with, "But you didn't feel it was wrong to do what you did (go on porn)."

And there is the moot point.

I don't want to be a victim. So I guess the only option is to find out what my guns are, and then stick to them.

At this point, I'm thinking I need to take a solid stance on porn. I was ambiguous about it long before she came into the picture, which complicates things (had tried to quit multiple, multiple times, and went between feeling OK with it and thinking it was morally wrong).

The reason I said it crept back in, is some part of me still thinks that porn might be an addiction. I don't have any conclusions about that yet and it doesn't help that all the studies about it are entirely anecdotal, and there is no hard scientific evidence proving that porn is an addiction like cocaine or heroin.

I would LOVE to have a clear view on porn myself, so I could be straight with her about it. I think one of the primary issues here is my own lack of resolution about it. Not being sure if I think it's right, or wrong, or neutral. She very decidedly thinks it's wrong, but she also feels like every stripper, pornstar, prostitute or attention whore on Instagram deserves to die in a fire, and hates them all with a passion, so her view is pretty decidedly biased.

Porn can be pretty polarizing. I've done the most I can for now: told her that I will probably be using it for the foreseeable future, in varying degrees. And that I see it solely as a stress relief, and that I don't think it has anything to do with our sex life. I don't know how I feel about it either way but I know I'm going to continue using it at least once in a while.

She has not broken up with me over that, so... .IMO, that's on her.

But I do agree I need to drop the victim card. I might have a hard time realizing I'm even playing it. Maybe part of that is all the reading I've done about porn being an addiction, and in that sense, truly feeling I am a victim of it. Which is counterproductive. It's been a vicious cycle for YEARS of me using it on and off, feeling horribly guilty about using it, trying not to care that I was using it, feeling good about using it, etc.

So I will definitely think about it. I would much rather take a stance and not be a victim. Even if I'm confused about how I really feel about porn, I would rather take the stance of "I don't think there's anything wrong with it, and I'm going to keep using it. If you're not OK with that, then you can leave, but I'm not going to change myself for you"... .

... .than to constantly feel so ambiguous about it. Most ironically of all, this whole conflict in this relationship over porn might be highlighting my own issues with porn (and my sexuality in general) more than anything else. Definitely something for me to think about.

Thanks for the replies, they are all very helpful.

You need to take a hard stance on PRIVACY.

Just because she can think of a question, doesn't mean you have to answer it.

Generally it's better to stay friendly and say  "Ohh... well... that's the first I've been asked that.  Let me give it some thought."

or

"I can't imagine me thinking an answer through to that question is healthy for us, let alone actually answering it... "

or just say

"I'm not going to discuss that with you... "

If you can shut down the questions with minimal "hard line" that is better... .but the critical thing is YOU get off the witness stand.

FF

Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with watching porn if you don't do it as a substitute for intimacy IRL. And I still think it's OK for people who can't have intimacy with a loved one, such as those on military deployments.

That said, there is definitely an element of unseemliness in the creation of porn and the people acting it out can certainly be subject to abuse in the workplace. However, doing that is their choice and it might be a better choice in their mind than working at a fast food place or being unemployed.

To my way of thinking, your girlfriend has absolutely no business asking you those questions. I certainly have never only fantasized about my husband. LETS GET REAL! Why would you fantasize about something that's attainable? That's a pretty crummy waste of a fantasy. You can do it with your SO, rather than fantasize about it. Fantasies are about that which will never (or would be unlikely to) happen.

It seems utterly absurd that you could have "hurt" her masturbating in your own place. That's ridiculous, but that's BPD. And if she's drawing a line in the sand about this, get ready for other disagreements!

Back to the reason I asked what she said when you asked for forgiveness.

Notice she didn't say yes or no.  "That's BPD for you... ."  She's not going to take a stand.  And if she does, she will likely serve the right to "unforgive" you as well (yes... .my wife has used that term... )

If she ever comes up with a "porn talk" again... .I would state simply... ."It's been discussed, I can't imagine it would benefit our relationship to discuss it further... "

FF

I have been seriously agonizing over the thought of contributing to this thread, mainly because I have some pretty strong thoughts on the topic, and I am not sure me interjecting my .02 is going to help any. But here goes:

Without making this about me, or my opinions, I'm going to tread lightly and say that we all have our own boundaries, limits, and tolerances on what we can and cannot accept in a relationship, or what we do or do not think constitutes loyalty, faithfulness, etc.

Some people are uncomfortable with their partner looking at porn or admiring other people in a sexual way. Some people are comfortable going so far as having threesomes, open relationships, or polyamory.

There is a whole HUGE gamut of relationship boundaries, preferences, behaviors, and allowances that people have, and none of them are wrong, weird, or "just because the person is crazy". (Aside, of course, from criminal or malicious abuses, and I'm sure that goes without saying.)

Nor is having standards about the way you wish to be treated within your own relationship a sign of insecurity. You have every right to want what you want, you have a right to choose your own definition of respect, and you have a right to ask for it if you feel you aren't getting it, and you have a right to walk away if the other person cannot or will not provide it.

We all have a right to choose what kind of relationship we want to be in and what we expect from our partners. Our partners have a right to say "I cannot do what you ask" or "I choose not to"... .And we have a right to leave if that isn't good enough for us.

The problem here is that the OP watches pornography, and yes, lies about it. I am not calling him out, but he said as much, so that is a real component of his dilemma right now. His partner is not comfortable with this, and it really doesn't matter if any of us think that looking at other people in a sexual way or getting off on porn is "normal" or "healthy" or "acceptable". It matters what his partner thinks if he is to address this issue between the two of them. It is not fair to blame her BPD for having the feelings she does on the matter, BTW. A LOT of people, men AND women have reasons why this topic might be uncomfortable for them, and it has nothing to do with insecurity or mental illness. In fact - it's quite the opposite. Healthy people with good self-esteem will tell you that they have very well-defined ideas about what they feel is respectful behavior, and they will stick to those guns and accept nothing less in the way they are treated by others.

If you were to ask a person with demisexual tendencies to explain how they feel on this topic, they could easily explain to you why they cannot wrap their head around certain behaviors that so many deem "normal" such as having lustful thoughts about strangers, especially when in a relationship with someone else.

www.wiki.asexuality.org/Demisexual

This is one small example of the huge spectrum of sexual behaviors within humans, but clearly a person who falls under this category would have a hard time having a comfortable relationship with a person who has a strong tendency toward primary sexual attraction to random strangers. Yet there is absolutely nothing wrong with only being attracted to the one you are bonded with. And you know what? It's not that uncommon. If you are one of these people, it might be very hard to understand why your partner doesn't feel the same, or to be ok with how they behave in a relationship if their views are vastly different from your own. Neither party is wrong, and both have the right to be who they are.

BUT - two such people may not have the ability to sucessfully relate to each other without some hard work and possibly some changes. This goes for any two people with different views, - not just confined to those with certain sexual preferences or tendencies.

If the OP's partner is uncomfortable with him watching porn and wants him to only have eyes for her, she has a right to want that, and yes, it DOES exist. I know countless people in happy relationships who will say the moment he/she knew the other was "the one" is when literally nobody else was attractive. Nobody could hold a candle to their partner. They stopped "window shopping" when they met the one they fell head over heels with, and had no trouble focusing on them - in fact it was a relief to not have to worry about dating, flirting, etc anymore... .Many were happy to not have to watch porn anymore, orfantasize about randoms on public transit (which they were utterly bored with) and to actually have a REAL sex partner! And genuine love. I hear this more from men than women. To each their own, right?

OP, you know where your partner stands on this, and you know that it is important to her. You know her requirements, and what she needs to feel her relationship with you is trustworthy. You have a few choices. You can work on this and decide to give up the thing that is hurting her, and put her before this other thing. You can perhaps ask yourself if you really want to be monogamous, and if you are willing to give your partner what she needs in order to trust that you are. (Keeping in mind, your perception of "monogamy" might be different from hers.)

You have a right to refuse to alter the behavior as well. You have a right to say that you want to look at others outside the relationship, and you will then have to accept the fact that it will hurt her, and her feelings are valid. This may cause further turmoil. She may decide she wants to be with someone who can give her this sense of security. You may decide you want to be with someone that is comfortable with your indulgences, or fulfills you enough to where you're happy to indulge in only HER (visually or otherwise) and have that be enough for you. You are both allowed to want what you want, and decide what you can and can't take, and can and can't accept. It doesn't matter how liberal or conservative any of us on this board are in our own expectations of our partners or our relationships... .that won't change the dynamic in your house.

This is someting you have to consider carefully, OP. In my experiences, when there is an imbalance in what each partner expects of the other, it can be a steep uphill climb, and either compromise, or separation has to occur, eventually. Staying at an indefinite impasse isn't ideal, and may end in disaster. I wish you both the best of luck.

She has the feelings she has.  Her BPDish behavior likely influences how she expresses those feelings and when and how strongly she feels them.

BPD also tends to influence people to use projection to hold others accountable for their own feelings.

It is likely OPs partner felt insecure about her relationships before meeting the OP and before finding out about porn and lies.  Those likely became a convenient excuse to offload uncomfortable feelings.

Please don't hear me promoting or condemning porn use or untruthfulness.  That is a completely separate matter from the effects of BPD on a relationship.

Good post... good discussion, keep it up. 

FF

I hear you FF. And I know that if she is emotionally dysregulated, it will be MUCH harder for her to express her feelings in a constructive way. That's a whole other level of complexity that gets added in - to an already complex situation.

Any couple can have a fundamental disagreement about what is appropriate or respectful behavior within their relationship - but it helps a lot if both parties can be truthful AND controlled in the way they express themselves. The OP probably already understands that keeping the truth from her isn't going to help the situation. But sadly, if she is feeling hurt or disrespected, it will be extremely difficult for her to manage those feelings and communicate them constructively. Even non BPD people don't do well with being hurt. So this is a whole different ballgame.

It's hard to say for sure how insecure she was in this particular relationship. This event could have been the catalyst to make her feel insecure, when she actually wasn't yet. Many BPD relationships start out in the idealization phase, and she might have been operating under the assumption that he felt the exact same way about her as she did him. (He mentioned that she said she only thinks about him - and that may well be true.) Finding out otherwise might have really been traumatic for her and something she wasn't expecting. Again - I'm not saying that because she has certain standards in a relationship about these things, that he is required to have the same ones. But not being on the same page there might cause problems for them. (Or, well, it has.) Should she go overboard in tearing him apart for it? Of course not. She could have stated her case more calmly... .but that's not a luxury the BPD person has, unfortunately - for both of them.

    I didn't really want to get into this portion of the discussion, but I feel my viewpoint may be beneficial.  Please take this as just that - a viewpoint.  I'm definitely in the "confirmation bias zone" to an extent that I don't think I could hear an argument that would convince me that porn is completely harmless.  That said, I try to understand that not being able to hear an argument is not the same as there not being a valid argument.  I think of my stance on this issue as being similar to someone who has been repeatedly beaten by an alcoholic and can't imagine why anyone would choose to drink.

    So from that viewpoint, I'd like to address a couple things that you've said that I can probably give a nonBPD's view of that might help you better understand your pwBPD's response.  

"How is having a feeling disrespectful?"
Feeling that there is nothing wrong with porn is a feeling - nothing wrong with that.  Acting on that feeling when you know that it is counter to your partner's feeling and expecting her to have no problem with that - inconsiderate.  Think of it as you feeling there is no problem with gun ownership and your partner being very anti-gun.  She may never understand why you don't see the danger in guns but that doesn't mean you have to change her mind or yours.  You DO have to be honest and not bring guns into her home, knowing her feelings about them, without informing her of your intention to do so and giving her the option to break off the relationship so that she feels safe.  Even if you don't bring guns into her home, she may feel strongly enough about gun ownership that she doesn't want to be in a relationship with someone who owns guns "in the privacy of their own home".  

"I didn't even think of it as putting my rights and desires aside for the relationship. When you put it like that, it doesn't sound appealing at all. I am not a fan of the idea of compromising myself or who I am for someone else."
As someone who lasted 23 years in a marriage I think the statement above may be a bit informed by the lack of relationship experience you mentioned in your posts.  Being in a relationship is ALL ABOUT putting aside your rights and desires for the good of the relationship.  Obviously this can be taken to an extreme where it is unhealthy, but people who are unwilling to put aside some of their rights and desires will not succeed in maintaining a healthy relationship.  For example - it is my right to put my clothes wherever I want.  I desire to not be bothered with putting them in the laundry basket.  Those rights and desires conflict with those of my husband who has a right to not have to pick my clothes up off the floor and desires that I put them in the laundry hamper.  One or both of us will have to put aside our rights and desires to a certain extent or the marriage will end over where I put my clothes.  I'm NOT saying that you compromise who you are.  I'm saying that if giving up the right to put my clothes on the floor would save the marriage, I would be foolish to cling to that right.  This is where you do need to decide how important your right to partake in porn is to you.

"I think it's important to not confuse my going on porn with hurting her, either. Is that really the case? I think it's rather silly to think I was "hurting" her by going on porn in the privacy of my own home before bed, on occasion. She has even gone so far as to accuse me of disrespecting and hurting her by thinking of girls other than her when I masturbate -- without the use of porn."

This is the topic that I kinda wanted to avoid.  I have very strong feelings on this.  I don't expect you to agree with those feelings, but I think that maybe a peek into my view of this might help you understand your partner's fears so that you can address them from a more empathetic place.

My dBPDh and I were both raised to believe that porn is a sin.  I don't know how much that prior "conditioning" played into what happened, but I can tell you how it played out.

I'll start by saying that I believe that porn was an addiction for my husband.  We are separated, so I can't tell you what he currently believes, but he did believe strongly enough that it was an addiction before our separation to go through a program for porn addicts.  

Here's the history of my experience with porn so you can get a feel for the impact it had on me.  This was a chronic issue in our marriage that often felt like death by 1000 cuts.  We went through periods when he "had it under control", but even in those times I know that the fear of "relapse" and the way I internalized thought patterns around what porn meant to him and me were pretty constant companions.

Before we got married, my husband shared with me that he had been exposed to porn at a friend's house when he was 12.  It was something he was ashamed of and didn't want in his life in any way.  He felt it was a sin.  We were both virgins on our wedding night.

1 year into our marriage I discovered porn in the browser history of our computer.  I had never been exposed to porn before and what I saw left me feeling humiliated and inadequate.  It also left me frightened and hurting for my husband.  He was sinning and I was supposed to be his "helpmate".  I approached him with both my pain and the desire to help him stop sinning.  Was I not caring for his "needs" adequately?  Was I not enough for him?  How could I protect him from the temptation he was falling into?  I asked that he let me know when he was "struggling" so I could help him.

Fast forward several years.  He has never come to me saying he was struggling and, when asked if he's struggling has always responded "no", but I have periodically caught him (browser history or in the act) and it has further eroded my trust in him and view of myself.  I now acknowledge that he is unable to come to me for support in this area and ask him to have someone else as an accountability person.  I am holding myself accountable for "meeting his needs", something that makes me feel used and I continue to feel inadequate because, in my mind, he isn't satisfied by me. I know that he is role playing things he's seen on porn with me and asking me to do things that I'm not comfortable with.  

I will stop the chronological stuff here and just give you the "greatest hits" of where it ended up.  Some of this I was aware of and some of it he revealed to me.  

The night I was miscarrying our third child (something I went through while in a hotel on a family vacation) I had cried myself to sleep only to wake up in the middle of the night to him watching porn and masturbating right next to me in bed.  I remember feeling responsible for him "needing" to cope with the stress by reverting to porn but also incredibly hurt and lonely.  I said "I'm sorry, but the doctor says I can't have sex right now" and cried until I fell asleep again.

Hubby wasn't employed for many years and was supposed to be homeschooling our older son.  There were other things he did instead of homeschooling (which left our son in danger of not graduating until he revealed it to me and I took over and supported our son through completing 4 months of school work in 6 weeks) but one of the things he would do was go upstairs and view porn/masturbate for hours on end.

Those are big hurts, but they pale in comparison to the many nights I would wake up alone and know that the glow of the computer screen was more attractive than I was, the times I knew he was acting out what he had seen with me and would be upset because I was not complying/enjoying the things "those women" screamed in ecstasy over, the constant message that still plays in my head "I'm not enough, not enough, not enough".

I don't know if your partner has experienced something like this before, but if she has, I can understand the obsessive need to know that you won't do that to her.  I can understand that the apology for the lie feels like a diversion from what she really wants - the apology for doing something that makes her feel like she's not enough.

One last thing - the idea that "what she doesn't know won't hurt her" is not something I agree with.  There were plenty of times when I didn't "know" what my husband was doing.  Some of those times I actively pursued uncovering his porn use because I knew that "something was wrong" and needed to know I wasn't crazy.  I know it could be argued that the distance in our relationship led to porn use, but I believe that he was distancing himself from me to allow room for porn.  I believe that he found that kind of sexual release much more convenient and less "costly" because those women never nagged or needed anything in return.  I believe that his view of intimacy became very narrow and his appetite for what I could offer was dulled by the unlimited buffet he had access to online.  

My viewpoint - porn does impact relationships.  Even if it didn't, in my mind it very nearly equates to using a prostitute.  I know that there is a very wide spectrum of stances on how acceptable porn is and I know that there are aspects of having sex with another human that are not in play when it's porn and not a prostitute, but to give you the type of thought that may be influencing your partner's reaction:

If you were meeting with a prostitute on a regular basis "in the privacy of your own home, on your own time", do you think that wouldn't be hurtful?  :)o you think that's something that she should/could live with not knowing about?

If the answer is yes, then I think you've uncovered a fundamental difference in thinking that may indicate an incompatibility with her and possibly other non-BPD women (like myself).  It's something to consider in this and any future relationships.

BeagleGirl

OP, with total respect, please read this statement you wrote: "I think it's important to not confuse my going on porn with hurting her, either. Is that really the case? I think it's rather silly to think I was "hurting" her by going on porn in the privacy of my own home before bed, on occasion. She has even gone so far as to accuse me of disrespecting and hurting her by thinking of girls other than her when I masturbate -- without the use of porn."

Is it possible that there's no confusion here to be had? She IS hurt. She does feel disrepected. It really doesn't matter that YOU cannot understand that. If she says that's how she feels, it's valid. This may be hard to understand if you can't put yourself in her shoes, and empathize with her point of view. And therein lies the problem in most relationship conflicts. Not recognizing the validity of the other person's feelings.

Facts: She feels these things are disrespectful and hurtful. What anyone else, you, I, or the Pope feels - don't matter. She is telling the truth when she says this, and the pain she feels is very, very real to her.

You could say to her, "I understand and believe that you feel hurt and disrespected by my actions. I don't want to hurt you." (If it is in fact true that you do not.)

Then maybe ask her what she needs from you to feel better and to not hurt or feel disrespected.

If she says "stop watching porn and looking at and thinking about other girls" then it is up to you to decide if doing these things is more important to you than staying in the relationship with her. Because you may not be able to do both. And it's irrelevant whether or not anyone else thinks these behaviors are ok. She doesn't. And she is the one you are currently in a relationship with. That's a fact that isn't going away anytime soon, and it will continue to affect your relationship. Ultimately, you both deserve happiness. You deserve to be with someone you feel comfortable with, and she deserves to be with someone she feels truly loves her the way she wants to be loved. And if she is only thinking about her partner, she is hoping for the same degree of love and respect that she sees herself putting forth to you. Your real dilemma here is figuring out what's REALLY important to you. She already knows what's important to her, and she told you.

Please don't hear me minimize or maximize the importance or value of the "thing" (in this case porn) on a person or a relationship.

Porn will have an effect and that may be different to different people and different couples. 

If "fingers could be snapped" and porn went "poof"... .away and never existed... .I would suggest that dysfunction would show up in another area of the persons life and relationships that extend from that person. 


BG,

I'm so sorry you went through that on a night of a miscarriage.  We've had a miscarriage in our marriage, it was a devastating time.  And yes... .BPD reared its head (it was after the natural disaster where my wife's symptoms appeared) and made it all the worse. 

In my case, i took reasonable steps to care for and be close to my wife, it's likely that was invalidating to her and she accused me of all sorts of things... .mind reading... etc etc.

Thanks for being open about a painful part of your life, please don't take any of my words to minimize your experience.


I think your story is more illustrative of the limitations of a person with BPD to show empathy and care for another person than it is the impact of porn on a relationship.  If porn was "poofed" away, I would suspect BG would have woken up to a hubby playing a video game or otherwise entertaining himself.

My point is not "what exactly" the other person (in this case BGs hubby) was doing it has more to do with a person unable to express empathy to a hurting person that is close to them.  Also likely they are (on some level) aware this is not "how it should be" and experience a certain level of shame (which they deal with dysfunctionally)


Porn certainly can be addicting.  I would suggest BGs hubby was addicted.  A simple test is if a person can set aside (fill in blank of potential addiction) in order to do something necessary.  In this case he couldn't... .or didn't.

   

FF

Beagle Girl, I am so sorry you had to go through that. I can understand why that entire situation would be devastating for you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It's not always easy to talk about these things, but it helps to get different and varied perspectives on things, and every story added to these threads adds to the big picture. I hope you are in a better environment now?   

FF - I can't help but think that BG would have much preferred to wake up to him playing a video game.   I say this tongue in cheek, because yes, anything can be an addiction, that detracts from the quality of the relationship. And a lack of empathy when these distractions/addictions are addressed by the other partner. I take into consideration the content as well, though... .addictions to porn, drugs, alcohol, gambling, sex, etc... .can possibly take a greater toll on a relationship than addictions to video games, gardening, playing chess, crocheting, etc... .I'd say my partner is pretty solidly invested in video games. Sometimes to the point of me feeling like I'd like a little more attention. But it calms him down, gives him a place to focus his nervous energy, and at the times when he "gets it" and asks if I'm bothered by it, I joke "Nah, it's fine. At least it's not porn!"

To which he replies "This IS my porn!" That I can handle.

We all have our own boundaries.   

BeagleGirl, I'm so sorry what you experienced. That was unconscionable.  

I think porn has hurt a lot of marriages in that it provides unrealistic behaviors, attitudes and bodies that could compare unfavorably with reality.

However, crunchtime is a single guy. Yes, he shouldn't have lied about using porn. And yes, his girlfriend really put him on the spot by pressing him to answer very intrusive questions.

But it's a slippery slope (pardon me, but I had to inject some humor here) and his girlfriend is showing tendencies of becoming the "Thought Police" on this topic and likely on other topics as well.

I think it comes down to how much privacy are we entitled to in a relationship? She's questioning his thoughts--if he thinks of women other than her when he masturbates. The next step is for her to forbid him to masturbate.

I find her line of questioning, and demanding answers, very concerning.

Respectfully, I see it differently, and others may as well. He isn't a single guy. He has a girlfriend. She has a right to want whatever she wants out of a relationship, and she certainly has a right to ask whatever she wants, and be honest about her feelings - which she was. What is so wrong with asking about your partner's thoughts and feelings? Or actions for that matter? On any subject? She has a right to ask (which is different than accusing) about anything she wants to, of anyone, really. Whether or not that can be uncomfortable for some... .? Depends on the situation, but she does have a right to inquire about anything she wants to know. The only time it gets dicey is if the other person has something to hide. Which he did, it seems.  It might be suggested that the dishonesty is more concerning than the question itself.

Plenty of people ask questions of their partner, especially in the early stages of a relationship, to assess the other person's sincerity and intentions. Are they serious about the relationship? Where do they want it to go? Are they wanting to see other people, etc? And yes, "What are you thinking/doing"? We all have our own boundaries, again, about what we feel comfortable with in our individual relationships. My partner and I asked all manner of really intimate questions about each others' past, present, future, and yes, thoughts. It's never been an issue. There's nothing to hide, and we know we have the right to say "I'm not comfortable discussing that." But that line has never had to be used. And after a while, we had no more questions. We both felt satisfied the other was serious and wanted this commitment. It could have gone the other way as well, right?

The OP could have told the truth, lied, said he didn't want to answer, etc... .He has the right to respond however he likes, just as she has the right to raise questions. Thought police? I don't think so. It's not unusual for a person to wonder if their partner seems to have a wandering eye (or other parts) early on in the relationship, and if they want something a bit more trustworthy, they can move on before the relationship goes any further, and seek a different type of partner. Most people just keep their eyes and ears open for red flags, and when they appear, they just exit gracefully without saying a word. Others, like the OP's partner, straight up ask what they want to know. Nothing wrong with that. It might even be a more honest approach than saying nothing, perhaps.

But it's not about right and wrong. The OP has a right to self-gratify until his parts fall off if he wants to. She has a right to be uncomfortable with it, or anything else. And let's not forget the actual issue. She wasn't upset about him masturbating, and is hardly likely to ask him to stop performing the physical act itself. She was upset about the content with which he was doing it, and his lack of honesty about it. (As he posted.) It's a valid feeling. You might find a lot of people, both men and women, if they were being honest, would feel the same in such a situation. That's an individual matter. It's far less likely if he tells her he's thinking about other women while masturbating that her next step will be to tell him to stop masturbating. Because that's not the part that upsets her. Her next step is likely to leave him. Yes, OP may think about, look at, or do whatever he wants. (Within reason of course, again, not condoning abuse or criminal behavior.) And she has a right to question whether or not his words, actions, and yes, thoughts and beliefs are compatible with the kind of person she wants to be with. She has a right to know so she can make an informed decision. If he feels it's intrusive (or he's uncomfortable with the truth) he has a right to refuse to answer her questions, and to say so.

That will probably be a sufficient answer in itself. ;-)

Interesting post.

Biggest issue is about "having things to hide".  Most of us felt that way and it got us in trouble.  After all, who wants to "hide" things.

When really... .the question is, "do I have something to share" and is it wise to share.

FF

President Jimmy Carter got into a bit of hot water in 1976 when he said the following in a Playboy interview:  “I've looked on a lot of women with lust. I've  committed adultery in my heart many times.”

In my mind, there is a big distinction between what I think is harmless fantasy and behavior that acts that fantasy out.

Certainly crunchtime's partner has the right to assess whether or not he is a suitable partner for her and ask him any question she wants. What is alarming to me is her pattern of grilling him and not backing off when he is clearly uncomfortable with her interrogating him.

Perhaps I have a different view, but I think that discretion can be the better part of valor. I don't find it necessary to share my thoughts in totality when posed a question such as "does this outfit make me look fat?"

Likewise if crunchtime was thinking of some attractive woman he saw at a sports event when he was pleasuring himself, should he be pressured to confess in detail? That to me would be far more damaging to a relationship than evading the question. And really, what harm is it to her if he momentarily entertained a fantasy about a pretty woman?

My BPD mother seemed to think she had every right to cross examine every thought that crossed my mind. That set me up for a very boundary-less existence. I think if our loved ones command us to give them access to all our thoughts and feelings on demand, that this is dangerous and sets us up for manipulative behavior.

I'm a bit busy atm, so I'm gonna keep this brief. Or briefer than normal... .I talk a lot

Just finished reading all the comments and I appreciate you all sharing. I appreciate it a lot and have taken everything said into account as much as possible.

We've been going out for over two years. I resisted calling her my girlfriend for over a year. She asked me point blank if I didn't want a girlfriend because I still wanted to sleep with other women. I said "Yes." She went silent after that and got extremely upset. I did my best to be honest early on. The lying was not from the outset, and I wish I could remember when I first started lying about all this.

To this day she is still the only woman I've slept with. Even when I told her early on I wanted to sleep with other women I did nothing to pursue that. She also did nothing to distance herself from me and my feeling is that when I told her that, somehow it went in one ear and out the other.

And over time I've come to question more and more what it really is that I want. It's only gotten more complicated. At some point I just started calling her my girlfriend after she kept pushing it so hard for so long, and maybe I came to appreciate having a girlfriend.

One thing that left a bad taste in my mouth is she was bad mouthing me to one of her ex boyfriends about how I wouldn't commit to her. She invited me out to a private bar and everyone there treated me like garbage because they knew I was sleeping with her but wouldn't call her my girlfriend. I never went back there after that. One complicating factor is she has done things that hurt me and never took accountability for it, whether it was flirting with other guys on Facebook or having a guy stay over her house. She convinced me repeatedly that she never cheated on me, and just has serious boundary issues. I believe her, but it's hard not to feel like an idiot for doing so. She also asked me if it was OK for this guy to stay over, explained who he was and why he was there. I never should have said yes. But that's just an example of me feeling like I have no right to infringe on her life or control or monitor her.

Which is my issue. I can't blame her for asking and me being Okay with it. Later when I told her it hurt me she said she has boundary issues and that nothing happened. She didn't acknowledge me when I said she'd flip out on me if I even asked if it was okay if some girl I met online stayed at my house for a while.

Another complicating factor is suicide threats. There have been more than a few times after I admitted to using porn or fantasizing about other women that she threatened to commit suicide. I haven't had the balls to call the police on her and instead every time have given in and driven over her house to console her, often at 2 or 3 in the morning, out of both guilt and fear.

I DO NOT want to be jerking off to porn while in a relationship. I've heard many stories like the one Beagle Girl shared and I don't want to end up doing something like that to someone. And I know in some ways I already have.

It's worth mentioning my girlfriend did have an ex that would watch Tranny porn, stopped sleeping with her and was seeking trannies on Craigslist to sleep with. Understandably her sensitization to porn use is heightened.

I get exhausted as well with non porn related triggers she has that she expects me to console her about. I mentioned watching a Christmas movie with my friends for example, mentioning a funny scene and she blew up.

"Is that the one with that vile character that's a piece of ****? He sleeps with a hooker in it? I can't believe you would watch that. I feel sick."

Many times it will be over something related to a movie or TV show that has any semblance of nudity or sexuality in it. There is a list of TV shows and movies she has asked me to promise her I would never watch, and is constantly asking if I would ever watch a movie or TV show like this or that. I think it's important to mention none of them are pornographic. I mean stuff on Netflix or cable TV or anything like that.

I do feel bad about lying. And I should never have done something like promise her I'd never watch a certain show or movie. I have to learn to shut it down then and there, even just saying I might watch it, but understand that has no bearing on our relationship or my feelings about you.

It has gotten so bad that most of the time we just watch children's shows to avoid any possibility of there being a mention of sex, or nudity, or dirty jokes.

Oddly enough, the other day I admitted to her I had gone on porn, and was watching a video of a threesome, two girls and a guy. I got bored, turned it off and masturbated to a fantasy of me having a threesome with my girlfriend and another girl instead, which felt a lot more exciting.

She said she appreciated me sharing that, and had fantasized about that herself, but could only do that with someone she trusts, and she doesn't trust me.

I wasn't sure what to make of that, but it did feel good to be honest. And there have been times, to be fair, where I told her I'd used porn and instead of threatening suicide she told me it hurt but she valued and appreciated me being honest with her.

I do not want to be a liar. I spent years masturbating alone to porn and I never imagined I'd go back to porn instead of having sex with a real girl, which was never an available option for me.

I also do feel better when I'm not using porn, generally speaking. I am not opposed to at least sharply cutting down on my use, and whatever I do, I want it to be transparent. Not that I would need her to know every time I use it, but I'd rather her be aware that I am using it somewhat regularly.

Okay so... .not a brief post after all. Just wanted to check in with you guys and thank you for keeping me in line and checking myself.

I do need to take responsibility and don't want to be immature and blame my decision to lie on her. And as I said I have felt much better being honest, and she appreciates my honesty.

Btw if I really believed she cheated on me I would end it right now. Maybe I'm stupid but my gut tells me she didn't. She didn't hide anything and I was always welcome to come over as I always was at any time and she assured me nothing was going on.

Still, I can never know for sure. I told her that, and even though I told her it was okay, it still feels like a breach of trust for me. And to expect me to not even look at other girls but it's okay for her to have some guy she met online stay over?

One time her friend stayed over and she flipped out on me because I didnt leave immediately in the morning. Her friend made me a cup of coffee and we were sitting on the porch when my girlfriend called. Put me on the phone and I get "why the **** are you still at my house, I told you to go home right away as soon as you got up and not to talk to her."

Again, it seems to be an issue with me. I just accept she has boundary issues and is afraid to be alone, so I feel it's never my place to know who she's talking to or inviting over, so I never ask. Meanwhile I feel I owe it to her to give her exactly that information... .why?

It's the feeling of double standards that confuses and also angers me, but then I feel, what if she really is telling the truth and hasn't lied, and it's just me that's lied?

Maybe she was upset about her friend because maybe she's cheated with her ex boyfriends before or something.

I also can't be mad at her for asking me and me (stupidly) giving her the OK. It's not like she lied. But even though I told her it was okay, is it then unreasonable for me to be insecure after the fact about this guy that stayed over?

She asked me if i wanted him to leave, and she told me she'd tell him to leave whenever I wanted him to. He was there for about two months during which time I didn't go over once, because I didn't want to deal with it.

My friends knew about it and all made fun of me saying he was taking her to pound town, it was so obvious what was going on, etc. But meanwhile all I heard from my gf was she was devastated I wasn't visiting her, that she wasn't cheating on me, and this guy was only supposed to stay a couple days but ran over her boundaries and vastly over stayed his welcome, and she didn't know how to set boundaries enough to kick him out. And he didn't even pay rent once. All she talked about was how annoying he was, etc.

But it's still like, is that a fair position to put me in? I feel like an idiot for Okaying that and now it's my responsibility.

But even the emotional stress of my friends relentlessly teasing me and calling me retarded for not breaking up with her... .that alone has stressed me out and also complicated our relationship.

I have had unwanted guests for weeks at my place because of my poor boundaries. So her story isn't unbelievable to me. In her mind we would all hang out and play video games together, so when I flipped and stopped talking to her when the guy got there, she was blindsided.

Anyway, enough for now. I know that was a lot. So much for brevity. Thanks again everyone for the replies.

And I'm not trying to defend myself, at least not consciously. I can see why porn use in a relationship would hurt someone and I always wanted to pride myself on NOT using it. I always envisioned myself building prowess in bed with real women and enjoying real sex, not masturbating alone to a computer screen. Not to pass judgment on people like me who do use it.

My brain's feeling a little contradictory atm, sorry! Hopefully some of this has made some sense. And again thanks for the support. I'm amazed no one has outright attacked me yet and I appreciate that immeasurably, and thanks for everyone sharing your life experiences so far.

Dear Crunchtime -

Thank you for giving more of your perspective on this matter. This sheds a lot of light, and gives a lot more information. It was brave of you to share all that, and you seem to be a mostly honest and thoughtful person who is in a tough situation, and maybe hides the truth at times out of fear of a blow-out. Maybe not an ideal thing to do, but sometimes it happens. We are all only human.

I do want to agree with another poster who said that "relentless grilling" is not the right way to go about it. I concur. Asking the question, getting the answer, and doing what you will with it is reasonable, but grilling someone is going overboard - but she has trouble regulating her feelings. So she's likely to grill.

You mentioned that you told her in the beginning that you were not ready for monogamy, and I believe that is where the trouble started. Had she been able to accept that when you said it, the porn and the interest in looking at other women wouldn't be a surprise... .but the unfortunate part is, that isn't the answer she wanted and was probably hoping things would change. That isn't your fault. She had expectations, and we are often disappointed when we assign expectations to others, especially when we have already been told that the other person isn't ready to meet them.

It sounds like there are deeper issues to address than just the porn... .(and her sensitivity about other types of movies ties into it - it's all about the same fears) she knows in her heart that you already said you weren't ready to commit. These things are all reminders of that. But still, you did nothing wrong in the beginning by admitting that. Was it painful for her? Of course. But did you have a right to admit you weren't ready for that level of commitment? Yes. Therein lies the dilemma. She remembers that, and she knows that. Everything will remind her of that. But at the same time, she can't expect you to remain her emotional prisoner, either. You two seem to like each other and have an attraction to each other, and maybe there is even some love there. However, there may be some fundamental incompatiblities there too, and you are still young and this is your first serious relationship - and it's with an emotionally complex person. I don't blame you for having doubts and not knowing exactly how to handle it all. I really don't. And it's good that you recognize that you would rather indulge your passions with your actual partner and not porn. But until you meet the right person you feel that free and that comfortable with... .you can't force the issue. You know what you want, it seems, and maybe you are holding out for the "right one" before you really give your heart (and other parts!) away. 

It's also not fair for her to have a double standard, I agree. If she has strict boundaries about what she can tolerate in a relationship, but breaks them from her side by flirting with other guys and having them stay over, then yes, you have every right to feel as if she is demanding something she's not even giving back to you.

I could go really deep into the philosophical side of "commiting adultery in the heart" and "looking but not acting on it" etc... .And... .I'll go a little into it! ;-)

Our biggest and most truthful indicator of what's REALLY going on is our gut instinct. "Trust your gut," they say. "What do you feel in your heart? That's telling. And I believe - quite true.

However, our gut feelings do not always mesh with the expectations, social codes, and mores of "polite society". Many people act according to how they "should" and not how they want to. (Again - none of this pertains to criminal or abusive acts, that's a WHOLE different ballgame.)

Many people believe in or want monogamy because it's the "right thing to do" and perhaps - they want a lifelong companion. Somebody to always be there for them. These two inclinations are at least to a degee, rooted in selfishness. "I want to be perceived as good and right, and I want to have consistent company and love."

In their heart of hearts, perhaps, this isn't what they want on a primitive level. They may have other desires. But they conform, in order to have the "right" kind of relationship.

To say one has lustful thoughts about others, but doesn't act on them merely indicates that they are suppressing their own feelings, desires, and "gut instincts" for the sake of "correctness". It's not an act of heroism. It's an act of selfishness. ("I want to keep what I have and not be seen as a bad person."

Of course, "thinking but not acting on it" is sometimes the most practical solution. Like if you become angry and have a murderous urge toward someone. Surpressing that and not acting on it is the best solution, especially from a legal standpoint, as well as moral. You might be motivated to stay out of jail and off death row, but that's pretty understandable. You likely don't care what your victim thinks of you, but you do care about your own self-preservation. So the choice NOT to murder is easy for most.

It gets a lot more complex when you DO care about your "victim" but it's NOT illegal to act on what you are thinking. The repercussions of acting on your desires are not life threatening, but merely emotionally challenging. You can see the internal conflict this might cause. Why are you REALLY refraining? For them, or for you? And what do you gain from refraining? Usually, approval and acceptance. Maybe a commited partner. What do they gain? Hard to say. Maybe nothing if they know you think about doing it, but convince yourself not to. But if the urge is there, they will pick up on it, and that won't sit well with them, most likely.

In most cases, when a person is in a physically monogamous relationship, but still having lustful thougths about others, the whole act of "thinking about it, but not acting on it" merely means they lack the ambition, INHIBITION, or opportunity to act on it. The only difference between thinking and doing is ambition, motivation, and access. Maybe the other person wouldn't give them the time of day. Maybe they are just an unknown celebrity the person has no access to. Maybe they are afraid to approach the other person, or fear rejection. Maybe they fear a fight with their partner, or losing their partner. But somewhere inside, on some level they would like to act on it. Their refusal to do so is not an act of altruism. It's fear, guilt, or inability, in most cases. Are they doing their partner a service by not acting on it? Or are they merely placing them in the role of "prison guard" and harboring the thoughts of "I really would LIKE to have sex with that other person, but I don't BECAUSE OF YOU." That's kind of a "don't do me any favors" kind of thing to many, and most wouldn't really be ok with that consolation prize. The real dilemma is not whether you act on it in this case (because it's not illegal in at least most societies) it's whether you are suppressing your legitimate desires because someone else expects it of you, and you just want to keep that person around.

If I go to a restaurant and have a huge satisfying meal, and am stuffed to the gills, I don't ask to see the dessert menu. Because I know I'm not going to order anything, I don't want anything else, and it would be a waste of time. And if I'm that full, I don't give a rat's hindquarter's about dessert. Stupid analogy, I know but the point is, it's not that hard to be happy with what you have and not really desire more... .IF you are genuinely satisfied. This is rare, because many people a.) Are genuinely NOT satisfied with monogamy in itself or b.) Are genuinely NOT satified with their partner (on some deep fundamental level) but settled with them because they were available, and probably lovable, and liked them back and it provided some kind of gain.

The world would probably be a better place if those who genuinely did have wandering eyes/hearts/minds/private parts... .just let them wander until they were content with focusing on one person - for real. Not forcing themselves to do it, not pretending to do it... .but actually doing it. And at the same time having the decency to refrain from monogamy until it wasn't a chore or an exercise in restraint. And subsequently, take the chance on ending up alone in the end, kept company by only their fantasies, because their reality was never good enough, and nobody wants to be somebody else's "not good enough reality". Or perhaps admitting that true devotion was impossible for them, and finding someone who operates on the same plane and is ok with that, because they do and feel the same thing. <-- And there's the real key. Right there. Finding someone who is ok with the situation and perhaps sees eye to eye on it. Whatever it may be.

The problems arise when one person is genuinely invested in their partner (physically AND mentally) and the other is chomping at the bit to indulge in fantasies about anyone and everyone else, but conforming to someone else's expectations for selfish reasons. It all boils down to making a choice and prioritizing your actions according to your desired gains. Fantasizing about others and refraining from acting on it may be something your partner picks up on. That may be good enough for them, especially if they are doing the same thing. Or it may not, and they may wish to set you free to act on whatever you want, and not have to be a part of your "self-sacrifice" or feel like your "loyalty" is a half-assed consolation prize, given reluctantly and under duress or pressure. This causes resentment and major imbalances, understandably so. We all have a right to want what we want, but others have a right to say "I want no part of it, and no part of you."

All that said - OP - you actually did the right thing. You admitted up front that you were not that deeply commited. The mistake she made was not wanting to accept it, and sticking around trying to make it different. So as much of an advocate as I am of respect in a relationship, you did not lie in the beginning about your desires. She wanted it to be different and it isn't. It's unfortunate, but that's the reality. If she can't accept it, then you have done all you can. The question now is whether these differences are going to be tolerable for the both of you or not.

The human condition! Complex, even without BPD thrown in.  :)

This is more or less how I see it.

There is flat out lying on my part, which I accept responsibility for, but there is also the feeling of being interrogated when she asks me things like what have I thought or not thought about when I've masturbated, or if I ever imagined having sex with some girl other than her, whether it was a real girl I saw somewhere or a girl in a movie or TV show or something.

And trust me, I can relate to insecurity. A lot. I think I've even had a fair bout with body image issues given that I was severely anorexic in my teens after being prescribed antipsychotic medication that made me gain a lot of weight. That anorexia lasted for years.

I also compulsively read about penis size and women's satisfaction with it, read everything women said about that online that I could find and made myself sick over it for years. Objectively speaking I have nothing to worry about, but I was convinced I wasn't good enough and would spend a lot of time reading online and making myself feel sick over and over again. I was convinced of extremely insecure ideas that only extremely insecure people would harbor.

She asked me how I'd feel if she masturbated to a guy with a really huge dick. And honestly, it really threw me off. Part of me felt bad. Another part of me felt turned on. Not in a cuck way. I am not remotely into that. More in a cocky way of, cool, you're getting turned on by this guy who's got a couple inches on me, but mine's a lot better. Let me show you

Sorry for the cringe worthy winking emoticon. But That's how I imagined it in my head.

In all seriousness though, I was capable of understanding both how it would affect someone and make them feel awful, and how it could do the exact opposite.

And both feelings were genuine. It made it very hard to answer. My response to her in that specific instance was to laugh. She described how she would masturbate to it in such Vivid, Chronological detail I just broke out laughing and said "Are you coming on to me?"

She got a little mad but not BPD rage mad. She was literally saying stuff like "going faster and faster" and "getting closer and closer and more and more turned on" and many more vivid details in between and it went on for several minutes like an erotic novel audio book.

I can't even type this out without laughing. If it bothers you so much WHY would you explain it in SO MUCH DETAIL?

Just a little comic relief for you guys. I had to share that. This is a very serious topic but even with my girlfriend there are (rare) moments of lightheartedness around this stuff that go a long way IMO for healing/taking things easier.

And for the record I have been deliberately avoiding porn for a week or two now and am feeling better for it. For all the joking I do think it can have absolutely devastating effects in relationships that shouldn't be ignored.

I would never want to invalidate someone's feelings or experiences about that.

Still smiling at that one memory though :D

Crunchtime, you posted the funny story while I was still writing my long-ass reply.   At least you two can laugh together about this... .sometimes.

We all can have worries and insecurities. And sometimes we indulge in fantasies simply because real intimacy is scary. Maybe we fear our own partner could potentially not be satisfied with us, but a fantasy person might think we are a sex god/goddess. But it gets unhealthy when fantasy stands in the way of us appreciating a potential reality that we really COULD have - with a little effort and dedication.

It sounds like you two have some possibility to get on the same page, the more you talk about this. Perhaps starting over with a clean slate, agreeing to help each other to put aside your own insecurities, and at least trying to see if you can work together to build a satisfying reality is worth a try. And kudos to you for recognizing how this might hurt her, and making an effort to try to avoid doing that. That's huge, and commendable.

Sometimes making your partner your fantasy, telling them that, asking them to indulge with you, and not inviting others into the mix (even if only imaginarily) actually works and you really start to savor what you have. (I fantasize about my own partner A LOT. Yes, he's accessible to me, but when I'm bored at work, and know I won't see him for eight hours... .my mind wanders all over the place about what I may get when I get home, and knowing he IS accessible to me and I can ask him for anything and actually receive it - is a HUGE turn on. And it leads to some great times when I get home and tell him what I have been thinking. And vice-versa.) Never underestimate the power of fantasy about your own partner. ;-) Boost each other up with reassurance and appreciation and see if that doesn't work wonders. If it doesn't work, and you two really can't find a common ground, so be it. You know you tried. But something tells me that UN-inviting insecurities and fantasy partners into the mix might go a long way for you two. You two actually have each other for the time being. That's something to appreciate. You have a willing partner. So does she. Maybe something worth fighting for and building upon?

I respectfully disagree. Humans are moved by beauty in its many forms. Noticing a handsome man at the hardware store does not in any way make me inclined to pursue him, but I can still enjoy the splendor of God's handiwork. It has nothing to do with my happiness and satisfaction with my relationship with my husband.

It would be like saying, "I have a lovely painting in my living room. Therefore I will never again look at another painting, because I already have one."

To me, there is an element that is strictly biological in what pleases our aesthetic senses. How we choose to behave is a matter of conscious choice.

Implying that it's somehow a moral failing or being selfish to feel what we feel seems very judgmental.

There is a "canyon" of difference between thinking and acting.

I would resist and advise others to resist any thought or suggestion that there is a minimal difference.


FF

There’s a negotiable difference between any two things that aren’t the same. The impact of anything on a relationship depends on the perspective of the parties involved. I trust it wasn’t missed where I said the key to a successful relationship is two parties who can agree to the terms. Whatever they may be.

Some people are ok with looking, thinking, doing... .whatever. Some people are ok with multiple partners, open relationships, group sex. Others would argue those things are harmful. None of that is of any consequence to me or my relationship. My partner and I know what works for us in that regard, and while BPD mood swings may be an issue, loyalty never has been. So I have no dog in this fight, as they say. The OP asked for help knowing full well his thoughts, actions, and behaviors had hurt his partner.

What it boils down to is if one person’s behavior hurts the other, there will be problems. People can excuse all manner of behavior if it serves them to be able to do it. That doesn’t mean it sits well with everyone. Everyone is free to think whatever they want. But when you form relationships with others, those thoughts may influence moods, behaviors, attitudes, etc... .and the relationship may be affected. The nature of the thoughts isn’t the issue. It’s the effect they have on the whole dynamic.

It sounds like you do indeed have a dog in this fight.

None whatsoever. But if you care to elaborate on that assumption, please do. And why did you chop and paste my statements out of order from the way I posted them? I don’t get it. (?) I think it’s possible my post is being taken out of context somehow. Please ask if anything isn’t clear.

It seems a general observation about how certain behaviors affect others touched a nerve with some, although no individual person was singled out.

I apologize if that’s the case.

Long story summed up in a few words: In order for a relationship to be successful, a good starting point is that both parties agree to the terms.

Not that I would try to interpret "cat's thoughts... "   on why she cut and paste the way she did, but I easily think of many reasons other than selfishness that I don't act... or do act on thoughts.

As I've gotten older, I've become more deliberate about "reflecting on my thoughts" or "thinking things through", usually in quiet with a warm cup of coffee.

More often than not, or certainly half the time... .my initial thought about something gets discarded.

This "lesson I learned" has gone hand in hand with "the thought" that it is wise to separate the thought from the mouth by as much distance is possible.  Most thoughts I never speak of and I think my relationships are likely better.

Generally unwise  (IMO)  to have a relationship where thoughts are so "unguarded".

FF

Makes sense, FF. Thoughts only become a problem when they become a persistent itch, and weigh down your existing reality. But on the flipside, if you can’t unguard them, they might not be compatible with your current partner. (Or your own conscience.) It is what it is. Are you open, or not? Your choice. You can coexist or be alone. Both choices are admirable.

Fair question. I agree that both parties ought to agree to the terms of a relationship. Unfortunately, these terms are often not discussed other than in generalities. Even things like whose family do we visit for the holidays are unlikely to be conferred about at the beginning of a relationship. Yes, it's important to decide questions about exclusivity and fidelity however I doubt that many people discuss which individuals can and cannot be fantasized about during masturbation.

When I noted that you claimed not to have any personal attachment to how different people conduct their relationship, this statement seemed at odds with what you had written previously.

Yes, I cut and pasted randomly, finding a bit of text to support my theory that you do have strong feelings on this topic, whether or not they apply to your current relationship.

I'll quote another bit from one of your posts:


You're making a lot of generalizations here as well as using judgmental words such as fear, guilt, inability and in your previous text, selfishness.

Though you would never think of looking at the desert tray after a big dinner, some of us always look to admire the artistry and exquisite beauty, though we'd never want to ruin a good meal with a rich dessert.  *)

My waistline is proof... .there is always room for a delicious treat after dinner... .

sorry... .couldn't resist...

FF

I can see BasementDweller's point. Personally I *might* fit into that category.

I can see Cat's point too.

My girlfriend has told me point blank that if an attractive girl tried to have sex with me, she thinks I wouldn't stop her. If I can't definitively, absolutely answer "no," then I guess that ambivalence is the answer.

I felt I was being truthful about my threesome fantasy, though. I might fit Basement's description and the only reason I'm refraining from sex with other women is selfish reasons. Honestly I have too much anxiety about it to know for sure.

That's why I had a lightbulb moment with a threesome. That, and my girlfriend has mentioned having some vague bisexual tendencies in the past, and has also specifically mentioned a threesome, but it was a really long time ago.

I think part of the reason it felt so good when she didn't judge me for it, and got excited about it, was I felt I was being accepted for who I was. That's the only time I've outright admitted getting sexually excited about another woman and she was OK with it and didn't guilt trip me and shame me about it.

I told her I wanted to masturbate via text with her and strangely enough it was probably the most unique sexual experience I've had with her. I think communicating fantasies is easier long distance than in person. And I knew she was paranoid about me masturbating to porn alone so I figured it might be worth trying masturbating together long distance.

It was great. For one part of it she was telling me about a threesome fantasy, and for the other part we just went back and forth based on a kink she has that she never told me about before.

It was great, and I felt so satisfied at the end. Definitely made me think.

But I know the core issue hasn't gone away. There is plenty of debate about whether humans are even naturally monogamous or not, even down to individual genetics.

And it's a tough question. Say if someone knew their partner would be 100% okay with it: would they still really not want to have even a one night fling with someone they found very sexually attractive? Is it more a necessary self restraint and self control to maintain balance and loyalty in a relationship? If there was no threat to the relationship, would people still refrain?

Even in open relationships I've known people to have issues with not being monogamous. It seems almost impossible for feelings NOT to get hurt even in a completely transparent relationship. So in a sense wondering if you'd sleep with someone else if it wouldn't affect your relationship might be pointless, as that seems to be an impossible scenario.

Either you deal with guilt for lying and secrecy, or accept that sleeping with someone else transparently will affect your relationship some way, some how.

I will say as a guy, I'm naturally drawn to notice attractive women. And I do fantasize about having sex with them, and that does make its way into masturbation.

However, pursuing sex and having sex seem very different from masturbating about it. Yes, I can get off to the fantasy, but I'm not going to pursue that to fulfillment in real life.

That's where I think Basement has a good point... .maybe it IS only suppression for selfish reasons or otherwise that keep us from acting on these desires.

I don't think there's any shame or dishonor or anything bad about that at all, either. Humans have a purely animalistic side and our ability to suppress that consciously is part of what makes us human.

I would've loved to beat some people to within an inch of their life, or even kill them, but I suppressed those urges because I was able to know better. That it isn't worth the repercussions. Then after those animalistic urges fade, and I feel they are no longer mine, it begs the question: were they ever really mine? Or was it just adrenaline filling my head with violent thoughts that I disowned after I came to my senses?

Relationships do have a lot to offer. Monogamous commitment is generally the price to pay for maintaining a relationship. Based on pure animal instinct, I would imagine most men and women would be screwing like rabbits if they had free access to partners they found sexually arousing.

But again... .controlling these impulses is part of what makes us human. I do find honesty to be important and it's part of why I struggle so much with my girlfriend grilling me. Hard to draw the line for me between what I fantasize about and what I would actually do, given the opportunity.

It's tough as a guy too, Because a woman soliciting you for sex out of nowhere, with you doing NOTHING to pursue her, is a pretty unlikely scenario to say the least. It almost is like asking me if some ethereal attractive woman materialized in my bedroom at midnight, took my pants off and put a condom on me, would I have sex with her?

I mean... .would you really blame me if I did? :D I think the reality is more that nothing can possibly happen with me and another woman without me directly pursuing it, which I'm not.

And even if it's just out of selfishness and guilt and anxiety, I can't see myself pursuing another woman as long as I'm with her. This is part of why I lost a few friends. They compulsively told me the ONLY possible way I could fix the relationship would be to sleep with another woman, and then shamed me calling me a p***y because I didn't want to do that, and eventually said they would never talk to me again until I slept with another woman, so I never talked to them again  Some friends, huh.

Anyway, thanks again, great comments all around, and lots to think about. Still hard for me to wrap my head around the fantasy thing. Cat mentioned a scenario like seeing a handsome man out shopping... .sometimes when I've seen pretty girls out shopping I definitely masturbated to fantasies of it later, even though I didn't really remember what they looked like :D

But it's tough when my girlfriend has argued that imagining and masturbating to someone else means you might as well have had sex with them. Part of me thinks that's ridiculous and untrue and I don't want to get pathological about it.

There IS a big difference between fantasy and action, as has been pointed out in this thread. BPD might blur the lines here, to where it seems like giving Some one the death sentence for fantasizing about murdering someone is OK.

She's flat out accused me of cheating on her and told me that me going on porn or fantasizing about other women and masturbating to it is no different than her going out and sucking a bunch of guys' dicks.

I do think they're different. The scary part for me is feeling tenuous about that, like maybe she's right. I've never had that kind of uncertainty before about something like that.

Dude... .

So... I'm probably an old fogey here.  My sexual coming of age was well before cell phones.  

Instead of texting I wrote notes and handed them to girls.  Any phone conversation was on a landline and adults were likely close on both ends.

Things just seemed simpler.  It would be unimaginable to have conversations anywhere close to this with any of my past girlfriends.  Perhaps that was why it was doubly shocking when late in marriage my wife started accusing me of crazy sex stuff.

Kinda chuckling and shaking my head.  Texting and... you know... .self pleasure.  I just never thought... .

FF

Wow - this thread went off the rails while I slept. Interesting conversation. Lots of interesting points by everybody. I'd like to address them all, but that would be one hell of a long message. Eh, even longer than usual.   I'll try my best to address some things, and maybe will need to make a separate post to reply to the OP, since his message contained a lot of content.

Cat Familair said:

"Yes, it's important to decide questions about exclusivity and fidelity however I doubt that many people discuss which individuals can and cannot be fantasized about during masturbation."

I sprayed coffee out of my nose when I read this.  :) We will get to this. Soon.


"Yes, I cut and pasted randomly, finding a bit of text to support my theory that you do have strong feelings on this topic... ."

Thank you for explaining that. I can understand why you did that now. I'd respectfully suggest that one should be careful about that though, because it can cause the original message to be taken out of context. Think about political smear campaigns where a politician's speech is picked apart and re-arranged to make the message sound controversial or offensive. I completely have no problem with clarifying certain things I wrote, but would hope I'd not be taken out of context. I suppose that could happen under any circumstances, though. I don't think you were intending anything malicious (at all) but I did worry that you were misreading my intent.

I sincerely do not have strong feelings on the topic, but I do have observations and viewpoints. (Truth be known I have strong feelings about almost nothing. Feelings are not my strong suit.) I enjoy theorizing, analyzing, and assessing the logic of things, and the cause/effect relationship between things as well as human behavior, etc... .But rarely if ever to I attach personal emotion to much of anything, save for a few living things that are part of my daily life. And even then, I'm not real emotive.

"You're making a lot of generalizations here as well as using judgmental words such as fear, guilt, inability and in your previous text, selfishness. "

I agree 100% that I am making generalizations. I freely admit that, considering that generalizations are based upon a recognizable majority, that was my point. "Generally speaking, people do not like to eat raw chicken." I could stand by that statement. I think it's fairly easy to support the notion that most do not.

"Nobody likes to eat raw chicken"... .That's actually not true. I wouldn't say that. I do apologize as I can see how it could be construed that I was suggesting EVERY single person acts the same way, and I want to clarify that I don't think that. I believe in general, though, that my statements were correct. I base this on what I have been told by many others about their own personal experiences and motivations. I know not everyone thinks or acts the same, however.

The words themselves are not judgemental. Fear, guilt, inability - I can observe or assess these things, but I absolutely am not judging. If someone said "I have thought about skydiving, but I don't want to die because my parachute didn't open," I would assess that they are not acting on their thoughts of skydiving because of fear.

"I really want to walk to the mall, but I am too tired and my knees hurt." I'd assess lack of action due to inability there.

"I wanted to leave you the last piece of cake, but I was hungry so I ate it." I'd assess the action of NOT leaving the cake was due to selfishness. (Ok, that one is a little more personal, especially since we have a lot of dessert lovers on this thread, hahaha... .) But please understand, I am assessing, and maybe even analyzing, but not judging.

"Though you would never think of looking at the desert tray after a big dinner, some of us always look to admire the artistry and exquisite beauty, though we'd never want to ruin a good meal with a rich dessert."


So you admit you'd be ruining it?  :) But for real... .have at it! The only thing you can cheat on with a pastry is your diet.   But ask Formflier and his waistline about the kind of trouble his ogling the dessert cart got him into! 

To be continued... .

Because it's extremely interesting:

Let's for the sake of the OP's topic and what seems to be a lot of interest and opinions on this matter, talk about the difference between thoughts and actions and the possible repercussions thereof.

Consider these scenarios:

Your colleague at work tells you that he has fantasized about murdering someone, and thinks about it often. Would you feel entirely comfortable going alone with him to his apartment?

He hasn't acted on it. (So far as you know.) Only thought about it.

Your neighbor mentions she is short on money, and has seriously considered stealing something of value in order to get some quick cash. Would you feel comfortable letting her house sit for you while you are out of town?

Again, no action. Just thoughts.

A friend tells you that he has been looking at young children playing in the schoolyard near his house, and has been fantasizing about having sex with them, and masturbated after looking at them. Would you feel comfortable letting him babysit your young child?

Your young daugter tells you she has considered starving herself to attain the emaciated body type she saw a picture of on an anorexia web-page. Would you be comfortable with this, even if she has not stopped eating yet?

Your sibling tells you they have thought about suicide repeatedly, and have researched on the internet about ways to do it. Would you feel comfortable leaving them alone with a weapon? Or would you just dismiss it as only thoughts?

A friend tells you he is really into bestiality and fantasizes about having sex with animals. He spends time on illicit websites, masturbating to films of people molesting animals. Would you feel comfrotable letting him pet-sit for you?

Sure, I grant you that these situations are a bit more alarming, because if thoughts lead to action, someone could be hurt or killed, or at least a crime would be commited. But isn't it a relief that they haven't acted on it? Or are the thoughts alone cause for alarm?

Let's clean it up a bit, and remove the concepts of crime and physical harm from the equation.

Your partner tells you that he or she thinks often about your 18 year old son or daughter and masturbates regularly while imagining having sex with them.

No action has occured. Just thoughts. Would you feel comfortable going out of town for a week and leaving the two of them alone at the house together? If not, why? It's only thoughts, and an 18 year old is an adult. Your kid probably has no interest in your partner. It's not gonna happen! It's just a fantasy! Heck, let's make them them 19 or 20, instead. Comfortable yet? It's not a crime! Or do you feel a little sick to your stomach just thinking about it?

Ok let's not make it your kid. Let's make it your sibling or parent. Is that far enough removed to feel ok about? "I think about your mother and masturbate and imagine having sex with her."

Alright, maybe that's still too disturbing to some. How about this: Your partner confesses to looking at, fantasizing about, and masturbating to mental images of a work colleague that he or she sees every day. Would you feel comfortable with the two of them going on a business trip alone together?

Ok, let's not make it even a colleague. How about a commuter that rides the same train each day? Is that far enough removed? Because it's easier to believe that it can't or won't happen? (The action part that is.)

But no action occured in ANY of those scenarios. Were any of the thoughts disturbing enough? Would they be enough to cause real problems in the way you related to the other person after learning about them? Would any of those scenarios cause real anguish even without the action? Would they severely damage trust? <-- Important question there.

"I fantasize and masturbate while thinking about screwing your 18 year old kid. But I haven't acted on it! Have fun on your vacation."

How big is the divide between thoughts and actions really? Or more appropriately - are thoughts really "no big deal?" Are they really no reason to get upset?

Your partner tells you they regularly admire other people, and become aroused and masturbate while thinking of them. Would you feel comfortable that your relationship is bulletproof after hearing that?

Anybody can cherry pick whatever they want to suit their own comfort levels, but the bottom line is that thoughts do not necessarily have to lead to action to create a VERY uncomfortable and painful situation for many.

I guess it's not hard to say some thoughts are "harmless" and others are "disturbing", but that's casting moral aspersions based on one's own standards isn't it? What's really the difference between your partner vigorously masturbating while thinking about having sex with your 18 year old kid, versus a random unknown person in the grocery store? That's your call. What's wrong with being horrified that your friend thinks about pedophilia? Most people ARE horrified at even the thought of this. It's a very uncomfortable topic. What's wrong with the OP's partner being disturbed that he looks at other women and masturbates? It's uncomfortable for HER. Hell, I love spiders and will readily pick them up and handle them. I'm thrilled when I see a spider. Many people throw a fit, scream, and panic at the mere glance of a spider. Do I think it's ridiculous? Yes. Do I have any clue at all how or why a cute little fuzzy arachnid could possibly bother anybody? Nope. But that doesn't make them wrong in their fear and disgust, and me right in my comfort level.

Two themes that come up on this site VERY frequently are thoughts of suicide and emotional affairs.

Most universally agree that someone admitting fantasies about suicide is cause for alarm, and most would even call for emergency intervention. Why wait for the action to occur? Wouldn't that be too late? But you can bet that every successful suicide started with a thought. If nobody cared about suicidal thoughts, and believed there was a huge cavern between thoughts and action - there would be a hell of a lot MORE successful suicides happening.

How about emotional affairs? I have read many posts where people have described their partner chatting other people up on Facebook, or having long phone conversations, or going to another person to emotionally vent, and have called it an affair. Even without sex or any kind of intimate contact happening. I do not doubt at all that this was painful, hurtful, and they felt betrayed. But how is having conversations or talking on Facebook an "affair" but ogling someone, getting turned on, and vigorously masturbating while dreaming of plowing that person blind is still totally faithful? As long as they don't dare have a conversation with them, right?

Or... .right? I dunno. It's not really black or white, is it?

I fully understand that there is a difference in the physical OUTCOME of having just thoughts vs. actions. But there can still be a significant amount of damage to relationships and the mental state of people in general as a result of thoughts. The morality of certain thoughts can be debated and argued and maybe never determined, but the pain caused by them can absolutely be measured.

How much thoughts (especially recurrent/persistent ones) can be an indicator of a much more serious underlying problem, or a sinister intent that might become action under the right circumstances... .well that's a whole separate topic. But it's relevant.

That's all I'm saying.

Apologies for the serial posts - this will be the last one in this "batch" for now. But to address some of Crunchtime's very insightful post:

"I might fit Basement's description and the only reason I'm refraining from sex with other women is selfish reasons."

It's possible, and not uncommon. Many people do the "right thing" for selfish rather than altruistic reasons. (Think of corporations decreasing pollution output not because they give a damn about the environment, but because they want to increase profits through good PR.) There are whole entire upper academic courses of study devoted to the ethics and morals of everything... .It's a thing, and I don't think it's judgemental to recognize that.

"That's the only time I've outright admitted getting sexually excited about another woman and she was OK with it and didn't guilt trip me and shame me about it."

It's a good thing that you were able to have this conversation with her and she did not get upset. It's important to consider that no matter what she may say or do she cannot MAKE you feel guilt or shame. She can try, and she can say certain words, but if you FEEL guilt or shame, those are your feelings. You own them and they come from within you. If you do indeed feel those things at times, maybe examine why, and see if changing some things might help those feelings to go away. It is within your power.

"I told her I wanted to masturbate via text with her and strangely enough it was probably the most unique sexual experience I've had with her. I think communicating fantasies is easier long distance than in person. And I knew she was paranoid about me masturbating to porn alone so I figured it might be worth trying masturbating together long distance.

It was great."

Good to hear! I bet she felt much better about that too. It's nice that you realized that making your partner the fodder of your fantasies can be quite awesome.

"There is plenty of debate about whether humans are even naturally monogamous or not, even down to individual genetics. "

It's a little bit of everything. The spectrum of sexual behaviors, and the factors influencing them are as vast as the universe. People are gay, straight, bi, or anywhere in between. Some are monogamous, some are polyamorous some are demi-sexual, some are asexual... .some of this we are born with, some of it is influenced by environment or experiences. There are almost 8 billion people on the planet these days, and everyone is unique. I'll just leave that here. Because all the time in the world won't allow a full examination of that topic! ;-)

"Say if someone knew their partner would be 100% okay with it: would they still really not want to have even a one night fling with someone they found very sexually attractive? Is it more a necessary self restraint and self control to maintain balance and loyalty in a relationship? If there was no threat to the relationship, would people still refrain?"

It depends... .some people are in relationships and their partner is NOT ok with it and they still don't refrain. Others are single, maybe even lonely, and the opportunity is there, and for whatever reason, they DO refrain. See above, haha. This is a highly individual choice.

"I will say as a guy, I'm naturally drawn to notice attractive women. And I do fantasize about having sex with them, and that does make its way into masturbation."

Well, as a hetero guy, who is capable of primary attraction, based on surperficial appearances, that's understandable. Not all guys fall into that category. But you do, and that's a factor in the issues you are having with your partner. Being a guy is not an excuse for doing things that might hurt your partner in itself, but the sort of guy that you are is at least a factor. (Not saying it's bad or wrong. Merely a factor.) For instance, if you were demisexual, this particular dilemma would not exist in this context.

"However, pursuing sex and having sex seem very different from masturbating about it. Yes, I can get off to the fantasy, but I'm not going to pursue that to fulfillment in real life.

That's where I think Basement has a good point... .maybe it IS only suppression for selfish reasons or otherwise that keep us from acting on these desires."


Hence my previous post. Your partner knows this and the fact that you haven't had actual sex with another person is of no comfort to her. Because that's not what she's worried about. She's worried about the possibility, and the admitted desire to possibly do it. One needn't have BPD to worry about that. Most people worry at some point about being hurt by the one they love, and trusting someone is terrifying for many. Especially if the other person has already expressed a fantasy about betraying that trust. That's just the unfortunate reality. Her fear IS real. And feeling like you desire other women, but refrain because of her expectations doesn't make her feel so secure. Are you able to empathize with that?

"I would've loved to beat some people to within an inch of their life, or even kill them, but I suppressed those urges because I was able to know better. That it isn't worth the repercussions. Then after those animalistic urges fade, and I feel they are no longer mine, it begs the question: were they ever really mine? Or was it just adrenaline filling my head with violent thoughts that I disowned after I came to my senses?"

Extremely profound statement! I am impressed with your insight here.

If you were able to completely disown and even competely dissociate something as primal and powerful as murderous rage, then you have incredible "mind over matter" capabilities. That said, you likely have the ability to suppress, disown, ignore, or even override sexual urges and attractions toward people other than your partner. Should you? I'm not saying that. Would it be easy? Not at first. (The mind is an incredible muscle that gets stronger over time, though.)

But it sounds like you have powerful enough resolve to choose - IF it was more important to you to make your relationship more harmonious than it was to indulge full-bore in your fantasies. I am neither judging, nor advising here at all... .but merely asking... .is it possible a lot of these mental masturbatory flights of fancy you engage in that upset your girlfriend so much, are not because you "can't help it"... .but because you enjoy it, regardless of if it hurts your partner or not? I'm just asking, and it might be worth at least thinking about, if for no other reason than trying to understand where she is coming from. Indulging and ruminating in fantasies and masturbation about others IS a choice, and if that's your choice, then that's your right. But any repercussions that come from that choice, you also play a part in. Is either you or her "to blame"? No. It really just boils down to her reaction to an event. You do what you do, she feels what she feels.

"I would imagine most men and women would be screwing like rabbits if they had free access to partners they found sexually arousing."

Some would, but it's hard to say how many. Realistically, most people on planet earth have that access. There are a lot of sexually active people on earth, and many people are single and totally able to partake. Many non-single people still feel free to partake. Some people are very promiscuous. Others are more introverted and choosy. Some people have a much harder time finding multiple people attractive than they do finding them available.   :)

"It's tough as a guy too, Because a woman soliciting you for sex out of nowhere, with you doing NOTHING to pursue her, is a pretty unlikely scenario to say the least."

It actually isn't. At all. Don't be so pessimistic.  :) It's gonna happen. More than once in your life. It happens all the time. Hell, it's the law of the land in the Northern European countries! 

"It almost is like asking me if some ethereal attractive woman materialized in my bedroom at midnight, took my pants off and put a condom on me, would I have sex with her?"

We may have to start a new thread about whether or not having sex with a ghost is cheating.

"This is part of why I lost a few friends. They compulsively told me the ONLY possible way I could fix the relationship would be to sleep with another woman, and then shamed me calling me a p***y because I didn't want to do that, and eventually said they would never talk to me again until I slept with another woman, so I never talked to them again tongue Some friends, huh."


Some friends indeed. You lost nothing in losing them, trust me.

... .sometimes when I've seen pretty girls out shopping I definitely masturbated to fantasies of it later, even though I didn't really remember what they looked like :D

Is this really a thing? AAAAANNNNNND... .I am now remembering every single man I have ever seen staring at me "like that" in public and I am considering scrubbing my brain with bleach, slapping on a full-face, floor length burka, and becoming a stone-cold agoraphobe.   Not you, though. I'm sure we have never crossed paths.   But yikes.   
 
"But it's tough when my girlfriend has argued that imagining and masturbating to someone else means you might as well have had sex with them. Part of me thinks that's ridiculous and untrue and I don't want to get pathological about it."

To you it is ridiculous and untrue. To her is is not. To me a fear of spiders is ridiculous. I think many others would argue. ;-) It's all about perception.

"There IS a big difference between fantasy and action, as has been pointed out in this thread. BPD might blur the lines here, to where it seems like giving Some one the death sentence for fantasizing about murdering someone is OK. "

I don't have BPD and I'm as a rule rather unemotional and more logic motivated. I would not give someone the death penalty for fantasizing about murdering someone. But I might trust them a little less, and be less inclined to want to be alone with them in an isolated place if ya know what I mean. There was a recent news case in Denmark where a guy who built his own submarine had admitted to fantasizing about murdering a person and dismembering the corpse. He had even looked this up online. A lot of people thought he was weird, but nobody took him seriously. A journalist from Sweden joined him on the submarine to write an article about the submarine. He murdered her and dismembered her corpse. https://www.thelocal.dk/20180116/danish-inventor-peter-madsen-charged-with-journalists-murder-prosecutors

Somebody should have been worried about this guy's thoughts. Just saying. ;-)

She's flat out accused me of cheating on her and told me that me going on porn or fantasizing about other women and masturbating to it is no different than her going out and sucking a bunch of guys' dicks.

If you fantasizing about other women and masturbating while watching porn hurts her as much as her sucking massive abounts of dicks would hurt you... .then it is the same. At least in the amount of damage it does to the relationship.

All that said, I know you are a young guy, and you are in your first sexual relationship. There is a lot of stuff that you still have yet to figure out and experience, and it's understandable that your hormones are all over the place. I do not fault you AT all for anything you have said, but I CAN understand how or why this stuff might upset your partner. As you get older and have more relationships, it's quite possible your persepctives on relationships, sex, attraction, and EVERYTHING that goes along with all of it will grow, develop, and change over time. How? Hard to say. But it will. Right now, a lot of this is new to you, and it's no suprise it is confusing and frustrating.

Ah, adulthood and relationships. Ain't it grand?  :)

 
 

Question -

Does your GF own a vibro?

Does she use it?

What does she think about?

Mrs Enabler has a full arsenal of toys and given the number of dud batteries in her bedside drawer she's either turned into a local recycling center or she's having her own little toy time.

BasementDweller - great argument you put forward and very compelling. There is no "answer" and it's somewhere in the grey, and that grey has to rely on trust. All relationships be that sitting next to your axe murdering fantasizing work colleague or being married to a sweet little angel. It's not rational to trust since the bell curve would always indicate that all outcomes and relationship disappointments are ALWAYS on the table. It's the conscious/unconscious probability we place on each outcome occurring that ultimately leads us into accepting the risk of being in a relationship or not. Our individual risk tolerance will determine whether or not we find it acceptable to take or leave the relationship.

Is one of the key differences here that he has been VERY open and honest about the stuff that goes on in his head (and I don't think his head is too far off a lot of men and I'm 39), he has laid bare the risk profile for her, she has chosen to stay in the relationship yet she tries to force change in his conscious and subconscious thoughts to meet her risk tolerance. She implies he is bad because he does not fit her risk profile. She implies her own high probability of him defaulting based on what he has told her.

I applied a low probability of my wife defaulting and I was wrong (so I believe). I trusted he and she didn't meet my expected outcome. My W on the other hand has never trusted me however I have always physically forsaken all others as per my marital vows.

There's no reward without risk and love always leaves a mark.

"He has laid bare the risk profile for her, she has chosen to stay in the relationship yet she tries to force change in his conscious and subconscious thoughts to meet her risk tolerance. She implies he is bad because he does not fit her risk profile. She implies her own high probability of him defaulting based on what he has told her. "

That's a good point, and similar to something I mentioned to the OP earlier - he told the truth in the beginning that he didn't even feel ready for monogamy, and yet she stayed in the relationship hoping that things would change, and is upset now that the things that bothered her still exist. She knew her tolerance limits, and she knew his behaviors and tendencies, and she knew immediately they did not sit well with her. For that I can also sympathize with the OP's situation that it is as frustrating for him as it is for her.

"There's no reward without risk and love always leaves a mark."

Amen. If that doesn't sum up a relationship with a pwBPD (or any relationship, really) then I don't know what does. :-)

Vibrators on bpdfamily... .   :) :) *) *)

Actually... .now that I think about it... .I have posted about vibrators here before.  Since we are all being open about what we bring to the "sex table"... .

So... .paranoia is an odd thing. 

There I was with a vibrator in hand while my wife was already in our jetted hot tub.  I could tell she was staring at my mustache and my manliness was overwhelming her. (ladies... .prepare to calm yourselves... .deep breathing)  Yet... .you should always up your game so I started talking about "the force" (and using it on my wife) and making dramatic light saber sounds.

I know... I know... man of your dreams and all that... .I'm really not trying to tease any females out there(and certainly not a second time... )  But... .mustache and light saber sounds...    |iiii

Anyway... .out of nowhere my wife freaks out and demands to know what I was doing and "what I was thinking" (applicable somehow to this thread)

I tried to explain that I was thinking about getting laid and lightsabers... .and... .well... that was really all the room I had in my brain.

She believed I was plotting to kill her with a vibrator... .well... until she didn't believe it anymore.


Oh... those were the days.



FF

"She believed I was plotting to kill her with a vibrator... .well... until she didn't believe it anymore."

Is it horrible for me to be laughing hysterically right now? Because if she really was scared... .then of course that's unfortunate... .but I don't think you could have possibly told that story any funnier.

How long was she in fear of "death by vibrator"?  :)

Basement, you make a good argument for how thoughts could possibly lead to actions and I agree.

Here's the rub. (Again no pun intended, but why not?  *)
When people have thoughts that don't fit the paradigm of "I only have eyes for my beloved", then what happens? If, they believe, as do you (possibly?--I don't want to speak as to your beliefs) that they are "selfish" and that these thoughts could be the precursor to acting out in ways that could ultimately sabotage their relationships, then they have a problem.

Thoughts of selfishness add further to a "shame-load" that so many of us carry. So perhaps they try "not to think" about some attractive person they've seen. (Remember the example of ":)on't think of an elephant"?) Trying NOT TO THINK of something ultimately makes us think more about it. Anyone who has tried dieting undoubtedly has run into this problem. (I am not going to eat ice cream. I am not going to eat ice cream. ICE CREAM. ICE CREAM!)

Then one is left feeling tremendous shame looking at the empty pint of ice cream leaving a puddle on the kitchen counter.

I like to allow myself the mental freedom to think anything. I have no fear that I will act out something that is not in keeping with my principles. And many things such as those you mentioned in your post have absolutely no interest for me to contemplate.

I will say that people have fascination for behavior they will never engage in. That's why they watch movies with disturbing themes. (I'm very selective about what movies I watch and I have no interest in watching violence because I don't want that imagery in my head.)

Another thing is that in the midst of the honeymoon phase of attraction, most people would probably agree that they only have eyes for their beloved. After that phase passes, and sadly it does for nearly everyone--or so I've heard--yes, this is a generalization--I wonder how many people are subject once again to the biological sense of seeing an attractive person and having one's heart skip a beat.

Then, according to your paradigm, we should not feel this way if we are truly committed to our relationships?

I tip my hat... .to the Cat.

Nicely done... .   |iiii  :)

FF

Well... .she toyed with it for a couple of weeks and now tries her best to believe it never happened.

The first time she met my P, which was shortly after this happened, it was my first meeting with P as well, my wife jumped up in session and acted out how she "pinned" the vibrator against the wall as I was trying to shove it in the water or otherwise electrocute her (never mind the GFCI outlet).

P said later to me that it was one of the most preposterous paranoid things she has ever seen.

My wife also "turned me in for attempted murder" to a preacher... .which... of course, is the rational thing to do when your husband tried to take your life... .with a vibrator.

Right... .you really can't make this stuff up.

Big picture:  You can choose to chuckle about this stuff or go bonkers yourself.  I try to have a sense of humor.  I didn't find it the least bit funny that night... .because I really did have only 2 things on my mind... .sex and the use of "the force"

FF

Formflier: I'm speechless. I'm sure your P was too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fTtgMqUNm4

Cat:

"When people have thoughts that don't fit the paradigm of "I only have eyes for my beloved", then what happens? If, they believe, as do you (possibly?--I don't want to speak as to your beliefs) that they are "selfish"... .

No, not at all. I don't believe anything of the sort. If someone doesn't have eyes only for one person, it is what it is - it's not selfish or unselfish, it just... .is. I'd venture to suggest that someone who is in a relationship and is pretending to be something they are not (or to feel something they don't feel) just to string the other person along for their own gain... .might be selfish. This could entail any number of behaviors, including, but not limited to various forms of infidelity.

I definitely don't have a paradigm of any kind that I could apply to anybody outside my own 1 meter radius, and the four walls of my own home. With nearly 8 billion unique souls out there, all with different preferences, needs, wants, requirements, and expectations, I doubt there could be a paradigm that would encompass even a fraction of them. (And I sure as hell don't want the job of having to define it!)  :)

"Thoughts of selfishness add further to a "shame-load" that so many of us carry. So perhaps they try "not to think" about some attractive person they've seen." 

Is it like the "shame-cone?" i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/05/14/16/28AA276200000578-3081768-image-m-24_1431617919111.jpg   :)

But seriously, people can and will think of whatever they want to, and nobody else can make them feel shame about it. Shame isn't something you can draw up in a syringe and inject into someone else's brain. It comes from within the individual and it's up to them to figure out why, and take measures, whatever they may be, to address it.

"I like to allow myself the mental freedom to think anything. I have no fear that I will act out something that is not in keeping with my principles."

As it should be. Sounds like you're in the clear. 

"I will say that people have fascination for behavior they will never engage in. That's why they watch movies with disturbing themes. (I'm very selective about what movies I watch and I have no interest in watching violence because I don't want that imagery in my head.)"

And I suspect just as many people have anything ranging from ambivalence to revulsion of behavior they will never engage in. They know their comfort zone, it's self-perfected, and they are extremely happy in it. Probably many people are also totally ok with violent themes in movies, even desensitized to them -  but recoil in horror at the cheesy romance themes, or gratuitous sex scenes - even becoming insensed when that foolish nonsense interrupts the explosions, car crashes, and decapitations they hold so dear. 

Re: Relationships... .it's up to each and every individual to determine what they want out of a relationship, what they will settle for, and what they can't or won't tolerate. If both parties are pretty well on the same page, they can likely make a go of it.

Generalizations, now:

Relationships are complex, not only the dynamic of the twosome, but each of the individuals themselves. They each bring certain things to the table, and then try to see how they can combine those things to create a co-existence. This process is unique for every couple.

How you relate to the world around you and how you relate to your own partner and those close to you depends on a number of things. We have, for starters, extroverts, ambiverts, and introverts. We have people who are superficial (I don't mean "shallow" - I mean they glean the most information from visual assessment) visceral (the feelers and intuits) and cerebral (the logical, analytical sort, who are often also very intuitive.) Most people probably posess at least a touch of everything at any given time, but most people fall more solidly into one camp or another. Some fall rather heavily into one camp.

Depending on how introverted or extroverted you are, or whether you tend to be more of a thinker, a feeler, or an observer is going to play a large role in how much you want to "see and be seen" and how much interest you have in other members of the human race. Some members of the population really do get energized by human interaction, and really enjoy connecting with others, and have a genuine curiosity about others. They love "people watching", socializing, chatting, flirting, etc. They might have a larger social circle, enjoy dating, even if not interested in "settling down" and can get along with mostly everyone. They like parties and social gatherings. They can be quite aroused by another person's external presentation or "vibe" - because they do like connecting with people, and I guess they do so first with their eyes.

Other folks are extremely inwardly focused, and they are energized by quiet introspection, aloneness, and are far more entertained and stimulated by solitude, privacy, and the ruminations within their own heads. They are actually drained by human interaction. The more they are around other people, the more of their lifeforce they lose. The have to withdraw and tune the world out in order to feel whole again, even after something as simple as a quiet dinner with a few colleagues, which can be quite an uncomfortable chore for them. They can be socially interactive enough to hold a job, or be a member of "polite society" but it's a burden and an impostion to have to do it. They have very little interest in other members of the human race, and very little care or notice of how other peoples' cells are arranged on the surface. When their heart pounds at the sight of a stranger it's because they are panicked that that person might look at them, approach them, or try to talk to them. They do however pick up on a clever mind, when they get to encounter one, and appreciate that, even if they say very little. This doesn't mean they are mean, unkind, anti-social, or even lonely. They are simply far more interested in solitude, and have very little need for external energy sources or the company of others. They are the opposite of unhappy. They are usually quite content and at peace with themselves because they require so little. They have very small social circles, but bond very deeply with maybe one or two people, tops. Most people lie somewhere in the middle of these two extremes, but closer to to one side or the other. And there is actually a good number of people who fall on the extreme far end of the spectrum, on the outer edge of one side or the other.

A really simple overview would suggest that a relationship between two very visual and social extroverts would start off quite physical, have an intense honeymoon period, and later fade to something a little less intense and a little more comfortable. While they might be quite compatible, they may also still require interactions with a number of others to feel really stimulated. They may be curious about other people, and they perhaps get a bit of a thrill, a boost, or a little "recharge" from exchanges with others (visual or otherwise). In general, they are drawn to people, and the more the merrier. People like this might naturally have interests (even if only visually, or superficially) in strangers, or people outside their relationship. Maybe both parties are the same, and that works for them. That's how they interact with the world. With curiosity and interest.

A relationship between two very cerebral introverts may look entirely different. It will likely happen "by accident" based on the fact that some intellectual bond occurs somehow, and that unlike most other people, with whom the thought of accidental eye contact, forced social interation, small talk, etc is... .extremely uncomfortable and avoided at all costs... .this other person... .they can tolerate and actually don't mind interacting with. They might even feel pretty comfortable. They are rarely, if ever, attracted to other people, period, but on the rare occasion when it does happen... .there really are no words to describe it. There is no "initial honeymoon phase" because these people are very guarded, slow to warm, and extremely cautious by nature. If romance is to occur, it is a slow smolder that builds very gradually, suddenly gets ignited, and once that happens, the intense inferno of passion unleashed between these two will melt steel. The honeymoon phase comes later, and the longer they are together, the more intensely focused on each other they become, the deeper and more intense their bond grows, and the more they tune out the rest of the world, because this is their person.

Considering this personality type, and how uninterested they generally are in others, when they find a kindred spirit, the connection is transcendental, and the rest of the world becomes irrelevant. The honeymoon phase doesn't plateau then fade... .it's on a perpetual, eternal, steady upward trajectory for the duration of their time together. The world at large becomes more and more of an intrusion, and less and less like something they care to observe. No, this is not "enmeshing or entrenching" - it's perfect chemistry, with a rather unbreakable bond between two people who feel at odds with the rest of the wold, but at home with each other.

You don't see too many couples like this, because... .well... .you don't see them. They leave the house when they have to, interact with the world as minimally as possible, doing the bare minimum to stay functional in society, and then return home to the comfort of their person and usually spend nights and weekends together at home, staring in each other's eyes over a glass of wine, (of which they can tell you every biological detail of the grapes it was crafted from, including the exact pH of the soil they were grown in, just by smelling it) screwing like jackrabbits, and having 14 hour conversations about string theory and existentialism - and it never gets old. They normally won't even bother to turn on (or own) a TV because the sight or sound of other people is invasive and annoying. They're the couple that turns down 99% of all social invitiations, and the one time they do accept, they show up late, sit in the corner, talk quietly to each other, awkwardly struggle to make small talk with a few people if forced, then leave quickly.

Picture the general crown on public transit. You have those that dress a little more to impress, stand in the middle of the train, look ahead and scan the crown with curiosity, make eye contact with people they find interesting, and really "own their space". They appear confident. Then you have the ones that sit in a seat, maybe by the window, maybe by the aisle. They dress casually, they glance up from their newspaper occasionally to look at other people boarding or standing on the platform. They appear relaxed. Then you have the ones that are dressed in all black or monochrome. They have massive noise cancelling headphones on, sunglasses, and no descernible facial expression. Their body language is extremely subtle, they take up as little space as possible, they sit by the wall, and face away from the crowd and not once do they glance up from their book, phone, or newspaper. They appear oblivious to the fact that they are on planet earth, and that there are other lifeforms there too. (They are actually painfully aware of it on some level, but have to tune it out.)

The first person is observing everything around them and maybe hoping to be observed a little as well. The second person is aware of everything going on around them and is taking it all in stride. The third person is only aware of the buzz of the hornet's nest inside their own head.

You can probably guess who is who. ;-)

As you can imagine, depending on where you fall on the spectrum, (AND where your partner falls) your level of fulfillment in any given relationship, and your level of interest in other people outside of it can vary wildly. It's likely two people who fall on vastly different ends of the spectrum might have some challenges. They may have a tremendous amount of difficulty understanding each other. They might also balance each other in some ways. Again, it depends on what you want, what they give, if it's enough, and in line with your own standards. This will vary for everyone and there is no "right answer."

@ Cat

"Another thing is that in the midst of the honeymoon phase of attraction, most people would probably agree that they only have eyes for their beloved. After that phase passes, and sadly it does for nearly everyone--or so I've heard--yes, this is a generalization--I wonder how many people are subject once again to the biological sense of seeing an attractive person and having one's heart skip a beat."

There's a book called "Sex at Dawn" that's pretty interesting. There's another I have yet to check out but seems equally interesting called "The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature." The Honeymoon phase is pretty aptly summarized, at least in the book I read. It does a good job of pointing out how love, security and intimacy can increase simultaneously with a *decrease* in sexual excitement, and that this seems to be the natural course of sexual relationships.

I will say from experience that the "heart skipping a beat" feeling was the main driver behind the several one night stands I had. It was the *novelty* and *excitement* of them each time. Even anxiety. I would absolutely be lying if I said I didn't miss that. It's one of the greatest feelings I've had in my life -- every single time I had it. I think back on each different girl I was with and each time it felt like a completely new and exciting experience, and they were all amazing. And somehow I would feel invigorated for days afterwards, like a really long lasting positive buzz.

@ Basement

Women approaching men for sex... .it's like a knife in my heart remembering how stupid I was in high school. It turns out it IS true! But hasn't been true for me since high school.

Several girls wanted to get with me but I had so little confidence and so much anxiety I just ignored them. I thought it couldn't be true, like who could want to be with me? Ignored. And then one girl flat out told me she and her friend were talking about wanting to get with me in a threesome to take my virginity. And I was actually really attracted to both of them, like I'd fantasized about them before.

I just kind of derped out of the situation because I got scared. Why? Who knows. I don't know what factory my brain came from, but I am going to have a hell of a talk with the quality assurance manager

Moving on... .

So many good comments. This all has definitely been helping a lot. I also am feeling less crazy having all this feedback and second opinions. I've been feeling more able to loosen up and enjoy my relationship as it is, too. These are tough questions, and the situation is very complex... .what relationship isn't, right? I mean if you dig deep enough into people's most secret feelings and thoughts, suppressions, and all that.

But it doesn't always have to play out so complicated. Taking it a day at a time. I'm also gaining experience, too. I've been feeling less fatalistic about all this lately. Everything isn't going to fall into place at once. It's gonna take some time, and more introspection, more action.

Honesty is tough with or without pwBPD. I'm just glad I mentioned the threesome thing to her, because feeling deceitful and dishonest has been eroding me from the inside out. That, IMO, is the MAJOR take-home lesson in this thread.

Having her aware that I am having fantasies about and/or involving other women makes me feel a whole lot better. It was so liberating to tell her that. I would rather her think I'm some kind of sex freak and see me for who I am than think she loves me when she has no idea at all who I am.

It actually reminds me of the time her best friend took kind of a pot shot at me. We were all talking about movies, and then she mentioned one and said something like, "Yeah, you'd probably love it. Because you're a pervert, and all." I just smiled and said "Yep, that's me :)" Then I turned around and looked at my girlfriend and just shrugged my shoulders.

Felt like such a huge weight lifted off of me. It also made it clear to me that even though I do still use porn, it isn't what I want. It's a habit, and an escapist tactic. I want real sex. That's always what I wanted. Porn is a substitute for living a sexually fulfilling life, whatever that really means to me. And obviously I've been avoiding answering that question for myself, and just burying my head in the sand.

I'm an expert at that, too, which isn't good. As the late Warren Zevon said on Letterman when he was dying of Mesothelioma... ."I think I might've made a tactical error in not going to a doctor for 20 years." I've got to make an appointment soon myself for some health issues I've been having that I have swept under the rug for about 10 years. To be fair I was molested by a doctor when I was a kid so I have a natural hatred and fear of anything remotely associated with doctors, but it still speaks to the truth that I bury my head in the sand a LOT.

The world's out there waiting to be taken hold of. Kind of exciting, actually. I was super surprised when my girlfriend said she felt RELIEVED when I told her I had masturbated to a fantasy of having sex with her and another girl. I had just had it at that point and figured nothing I said would make any difference anyway, so f*** it. I wasn't expecting to hear that as a response. Certainly not.

More take-home messages: shame and secrecy are not good.

There's a Zen story about "loving openly":

A student has a crush on a girl in his class. He leaves a letter for her, insisting on a private meeting. She doesn't leave any reply.

The next day, after the end of a lecture, she gets up in front of the whole classroom. Addressing the one who had written the letter, she said, "If you really love me so much, then come up here and embrace me right now."

@ formflier

The attempted murder with a vibrator. Definitely a first. Hilarious in hindsight, but then again so was my friend's run in with a girl he had a one night stand with pointing a loaded .357 Magnum at his chest while telling him, "So I've heard you've been sleeping with another woman"... .

Okay... .well, it sounded funnier in my head before I wrote it out. x_x

For the record, one girl I hooked up with soon after began telling me she was having uncontrollable homicidal fantasies and was a big fan of cutlery. We never hooked up again. I kinda just faded away from that one. Now that I think about it, hooking up with a girl I met at the psychiatric ward probably wasn't one of the smartest things I've done in my life.

That was years ago, and after a good long while of fooling around pretty intensely, I was just about to put my banana in her fruit basket.

That's when my dad knocked on the door. Pounded on the door. Over and over. "Hey dad, I'm busy right now. Can this wait?" Yelling my name. He knew what was up. He had seen me go into my room with her. I don't know what his deal was. I was pretty pissed at the time, like, come on man. What the hell. That was the end of that. I don't think I'll ever fully recover from those blue balls. Post traumatic cock blocking syndrome. I was a virgin at the time too, to add insult to injury. I had just torn the condom wrapper and hadn't even had a chance to get the condom out before my dad started knock knock knocking on heaven's door.

But I might actually owe my life to him. Thanks dad. I kinda wish I framed the condom. Me and her actually joked about that after. It was funny until she started talking about killing people and stuff out of nowhere. I asked what happened that she was so angry about. She said she wasn't angry at all. That's when I decided I'd take the blue balls and cut my losses.

Crunchtime, if you somehow fail to become the world's most prolific pud-pulling, porn-watching, cock-block defeating Casanova, there is at least SURELY a brilliant career for you as a writer in the cards.  :thought:

*mod*

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