Apology Not Good Enough

[BasementDweller]

Beagle Girl, I am so sorry you had to go through that. I can understand why that entire situation would be devastating for you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It's not always easy to talk about these things, but it helps to get different and varied perspectives on things, and every story added to these threads adds to the big picture. I hope you are in a better environment now?   

FF - I can't help but think that BG would have much preferred to wake up to him playing a video game.   I say this tongue in cheek, because yes, anything can be an addiction, that detracts from the quality of the relationship. And a lack of empathy when these distractions/addictions are addressed by the other partner. I take into consideration the content as well, though... .addictions to porn, drugs, alcohol, gambling, sex, etc... .can possibly take a greater toll on a relationship than addictions to video games, gardening, playing chess, crocheting, etc... .I'd say my partner is pretty solidly invested in video games. Sometimes to the point of me feeling like I'd like a little more attention. But it calms him down, gives him a place to focus his nervous energy, and at the times when he "gets it" and asks if I'm bothered by it, I joke "Nah, it's fine. At least it's not porn!"

To which he replies "This IS my porn!" That I can handle.

We all have our own boundaries.   

[Cat Familiar]

BeagleGirl, I'm so sorry what you experienced. That was unconscionable.  

I think porn has hurt a lot of marriages in that it provides unrealistic behaviors, attitudes and bodies that could compare unfavorably with reality.

However, crunchtime is a single guy. Yes, he shouldn't have lied about using porn. And yes, his girlfriend really put him on the spot by pressing him to answer very intrusive questions.

But it's a slippery slope (pardon me, but I had to inject some humor here) and his girlfriend is showing tendencies of becoming the "Thought Police" on this topic and likely on other topics as well.

I think it comes down to how much privacy are we entitled to in a relationship? She's questioning his thoughts--if he thinks of women other than her when he masturbates. The next step is for her to forbid him to masturbate.

I find her line of questioning, and demanding answers, very concerning.

[BasementDweller]

Respectfully, I see it differently, and others may as well. He isn't a single guy. He has a girlfriend. She has a right to want whatever she wants out of a relationship, and she certainly has a right to ask whatever she wants, and be honest about her feelings - which she was. What is so wrong with asking about your partner's thoughts and feelings? Or actions for that matter? On any subject? She has a right to ask (which is different than accusing) about anything she wants to, of anyone, really. Whether or not that can be uncomfortable for some... .? Depends on the situation, but she does have a right to inquire about anything she wants to know. The only time it gets dicey is if the other person has something to hide. Which he did, it seems.  It might be suggested that the dishonesty is more concerning than the question itself.

Plenty of people ask questions of their partner, especially in the early stages of a relationship, to assess the other person's sincerity and intentions. Are they serious about the relationship? Where do they want it to go? Are they wanting to see other people, etc? And yes, "What are you thinking/doing"? We all have our own boundaries, again, about what we feel comfortable with in our individual relationships. My partner and I asked all manner of really intimate questions about each others' past, present, future, and yes, thoughts. It's never been an issue. There's nothing to hide, and we know we have the right to say "I'm not comfortable discussing that." But that line has never had to be used. And after a while, we had no more questions. We both felt satisfied the other was serious and wanted this commitment. It could have gone the other way as well, right?

The OP could have told the truth, lied, said he didn't want to answer, etc... .He has the right to respond however he likes, just as she has the right to raise questions. Thought police? I don't think so. It's not unusual for a person to wonder if their partner seems to have a wandering eye (or other parts) early on in the relationship, and if they want something a bit more trustworthy, they can move on before the relationship goes any further, and seek a different type of partner. Most people just keep their eyes and ears open for red flags, and when they appear, they just exit gracefully without saying a word. Others, like the OP's partner, straight up ask what they want to know. Nothing wrong with that. It might even be a more honest approach than saying nothing, perhaps.

But it's not about right and wrong. The OP has a right to self-gratify until his parts fall off if he wants to. She has a right to be uncomfortable with it, or anything else. And let's not forget the actual issue. She wasn't upset about him masturbating, and is hardly likely to ask him to stop performing the physical act itself. She was upset about the content with which he was doing it, and his lack of honesty about it. (As he posted.) It's a valid feeling. You might find a lot of people, both men and women, if they were being honest, would feel the same in such a situation. That's an individual matter. It's far less likely if he tells her he's thinking about other women while masturbating that her next step will be to tell him to stop masturbating. Because that's not the part that upsets her. Her next step is likely to leave him. Yes, OP may think about, look at, or do whatever he wants. (Within reason of course, again, not condoning abuse or criminal behavior.) And she has a right to question whether or not his words, actions, and yes, thoughts and beliefs are compatible with the kind of person she wants to be with. She has a right to know so she can make an informed decision. If he feels it's intrusive (or he's uncomfortable with the truth) he has a right to refuse to answer her questions, and to say so.

That will probably be a sufficient answer in itself. ;-)

[formflier]

Interesting post.

Biggest issue is about "having things to hide".  Most of us felt that way and it got us in trouble.  After all, who wants to "hide" things.

When really... .the question is, "do I have something to share" and is it wise to share.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

President Jimmy Carter got into a bit of hot water in 1976 when he said the following in a Playboy interview:  “I've looked on a lot of women with lust. I've  committed adultery in my heart many times.”

In my mind, there is a big distinction between what I think is harmless fantasy and behavior that acts that fantasy out.

Certainly crunchtime's partner has the right to assess whether or not he is a suitable partner for her and ask him any question she wants. What is alarming to me is her pattern of grilling him and not backing off when he is clearly uncomfortable with her interrogating him.

Perhaps I have a different view, but I think that discretion can be the better part of valor. I don't find it necessary to share my thoughts in totality when posed a question such as "does this outfit make me look fat?"

Likewise if crunchtime was thinking of some attractive woman he saw at a sports event when he was pleasuring himself, should he be pressured to confess in detail? That to me would be far more damaging to a relationship than evading the question. And really, what harm is it to her if he momentarily entertained a fantasy about a pretty woman?

My BPD mother seemed to think she had every right to cross examine every thought that crossed my mind. That set me up for a very boundary-less existence. I think if our loved ones command us to give them access to all our thoughts and feelings on demand, that this is dangerous and sets us up for manipulative behavior.

[crunchtime]

I'm a bit busy atm, so I'm gonna keep this brief. Or briefer than normal... .I talk a lot

Just finished reading all the comments and I appreciate you all sharing. I appreciate it a lot and have taken everything said into account as much as possible.

We've been going out for over two years. I resisted calling her my girlfriend for over a year. She asked me point blank if I didn't want a girlfriend because I still wanted to sleep with other women. I said "Yes." She went silent after that and got extremely upset. I did my best to be honest early on. The lying was not from the outset, and I wish I could remember when I first started lying about all this.

To this day she is still the only woman I've slept with. Even when I told her early on I wanted to sleep with other women I did nothing to pursue that. She also did nothing to distance herself from me and my feeling is that when I told her that, somehow it went in one ear and out the other.

And over time I've come to question more and more what it really is that I want. It's only gotten more complicated. At some point I just started calling her my girlfriend after she kept pushing it so hard for so long, and maybe I came to appreciate having a girlfriend.

One thing that left a bad taste in my mouth is she was bad mouthing me to one of her ex boyfriends about how I wouldn't commit to her. She invited me out to a private bar and everyone there treated me like garbage because they knew I was sleeping with her but wouldn't call her my girlfriend. I never went back there after that. One complicating factor is she has done things that hurt me and never took accountability for it, whether it was flirting with other guys on Facebook or having a guy stay over her house. She convinced me repeatedly that she never cheated on me, and just has serious boundary issues. I believe her, but it's hard not to feel like an idiot for doing so. She also asked me if it was OK for this guy to stay over, explained who he was and why he was there. I never should have said yes. But that's just an example of me feeling like I have no right to infringe on her life or control or monitor her.

Which is my issue. I can't blame her for asking and me being Okay with it. Later when I told her it hurt me she said she has boundary issues and that nothing happened. She didn't acknowledge me when I said she'd flip out on me if I even asked if it was okay if some girl I met online stayed at my house for a while.

Another complicating factor is suicide threats. There have been more than a few times after I admitted to using porn or fantasizing about other women that she threatened to commit suicide. I haven't had the balls to call the police on her and instead every time have given in and driven over her house to console her, often at 2 or 3 in the morning, out of both guilt and fear.

I DO NOT want to be jerking off to porn while in a relationship. I've heard many stories like the one Beagle Girl shared and I don't want to end up doing something like that to someone. And I know in some ways I already have.

It's worth mentioning my girlfriend did have an ex that would watch Tranny porn, stopped sleeping with her and was seeking trannies on Craigslist to sleep with. Understandably her sensitization to porn use is heightened.

I get exhausted as well with non porn related triggers she has that she expects me to console her about. I mentioned watching a Christmas movie with my friends for example, mentioning a funny scene and she blew up.

"Is that the one with that vile character that's a piece of ****? He sleeps with a hooker in it? I can't believe you would watch that. I feel sick."

Many times it will be over something related to a movie or TV show that has any semblance of nudity or sexuality in it. There is a list of TV shows and movies she has asked me to promise her I would never watch, and is constantly asking if I would ever watch a movie or TV show like this or that. I think it's important to mention none of them are pornographic. I mean stuff on Netflix or cable TV or anything like that.

I do feel bad about lying. And I should never have done something like promise her I'd never watch a certain show or movie. I have to learn to shut it down then and there, even just saying I might watch it, but understand that has no bearing on our relationship or my feelings about you.

It has gotten so bad that most of the time we just watch children's shows to avoid any possibility of there being a mention of sex, or nudity, or dirty jokes.

Oddly enough, the other day I admitted to her I had gone on porn, and was watching a video of a threesome, two girls and a guy. I got bored, turned it off and masturbated to a fantasy of me having a threesome with my girlfriend and another girl instead, which felt a lot more exciting.

She said she appreciated me sharing that, and had fantasized about that herself, but could only do that with someone she trusts, and she doesn't trust me.

I wasn't sure what to make of that, but it did feel good to be honest. And there have been times, to be fair, where I told her I'd used porn and instead of threatening suicide she told me it hurt but she valued and appreciated me being honest with her.

I do not want to be a liar. I spent years masturbating alone to porn and I never imagined I'd go back to porn instead of having sex with a real girl, which was never an available option for me.

I also do feel better when I'm not using porn, generally speaking. I am not opposed to at least sharply cutting down on my use, and whatever I do, I want it to be transparent. Not that I would need her to know every time I use it, but I'd rather her be aware that I am using it somewhat regularly.

Okay so... .not a brief post after all. Just wanted to check in with you guys and thank you for keeping me in line and checking myself.

I do need to take responsibility and don't want to be immature and blame my decision to lie on her. And as I said I have felt much better being honest, and she appreciates my honesty.

Btw if I really believed she cheated on me I would end it right now. Maybe I'm stupid but my gut tells me she didn't. She didn't hide anything and I was always welcome to come over as I always was at any time and she assured me nothing was going on.

Still, I can never know for sure. I told her that, and even though I told her it was okay, it still feels like a breach of trust for me. And to expect me to not even look at other girls but it's okay for her to have some guy she met online stay over?

One time her friend stayed over and she flipped out on me because I didnt leave immediately in the morning. Her friend made me a cup of coffee and we were sitting on the porch when my girlfriend called. Put me on the phone and I get "why the **** are you still at my house, I told you to go home right away as soon as you got up and not to talk to her."

Again, it seems to be an issue with me. I just accept she has boundary issues and is afraid to be alone, so I feel it's never my place to know who she's talking to or inviting over, so I never ask. Meanwhile I feel I owe it to her to give her exactly that information... .why?

It's the feeling of double standards that confuses and also angers me, but then I feel, what if she really is telling the truth and hasn't lied, and it's just me that's lied?

Maybe she was upset about her friend because maybe she's cheated with her ex boyfriends before or something.

I also can't be mad at her for asking me and me (stupidly) giving her the OK. It's not like she lied. But even though I told her it was okay, is it then unreasonable for me to be insecure after the fact about this guy that stayed over?

She asked me if i wanted him to leave, and she told me she'd tell him to leave whenever I wanted him to. He was there for about two months during which time I didn't go over once, because I didn't want to deal with it.

My friends knew about it and all made fun of me saying he was taking her to pound town, it was so obvious what was going on, etc. But meanwhile all I heard from my gf was she was devastated I wasn't visiting her, that she wasn't cheating on me, and this guy was only supposed to stay a couple days but ran over her boundaries and vastly over stayed his welcome, and she didn't know how to set boundaries enough to kick him out. And he didn't even pay rent once. All she talked about was how annoying he was, etc.

But it's still like, is that a fair position to put me in? I feel like an idiot for Okaying that and now it's my responsibility.

But even the emotional stress of my friends relentlessly teasing me and calling me retarded for not breaking up with her... .that alone has stressed me out and also complicated our relationship.

I have had unwanted guests for weeks at my place because of my poor boundaries. So her story isn't unbelievable to me. In her mind we would all hang out and play video games together, so when I flipped and stopped talking to her when the guy got there, she was blindsided.

Anyway, enough for now. I know that was a lot. So much for brevity. Thanks again everyone for the replies.

And I'm not trying to defend myself, at least not consciously. I can see why porn use in a relationship would hurt someone and I always wanted to pride myself on NOT using it. I always envisioned myself building prowess in bed with real women and enjoying real sex, not masturbating alone to a computer screen. Not to pass judgment on people like me who do use it.

My brain's feeling a little contradictory atm, sorry! Hopefully some of this has made some sense. And again thanks for the support. I'm amazed no one has outright attacked me yet and I appreciate that immeasurably, and thanks for everyone sharing your life experiences so far.

[BasementDweller]

Dear Crunchtime -

Thank you for giving more of your perspective on this matter. This sheds a lot of light, and gives a lot more information. It was brave of you to share all that, and you seem to be a mostly honest and thoughtful person who is in a tough situation, and maybe hides the truth at times out of fear of a blow-out. Maybe not an ideal thing to do, but sometimes it happens. We are all only human.

I do want to agree with another poster who said that "relentless grilling" is not the right way to go about it. I concur. Asking the question, getting the answer, and doing what you will with it is reasonable, but grilling someone is going overboard - but she has trouble regulating her feelings. So she's likely to grill.

You mentioned that you told her in the beginning that you were not ready for monogamy, and I believe that is where the trouble started. Had she been able to accept that when you said it, the porn and the interest in looking at other women wouldn't be a surprise... .but the unfortunate part is, that isn't the answer she wanted and was probably hoping things would change. That isn't your fault. She had expectations, and we are often disappointed when we assign expectations to others, especially when we have already been told that the other person isn't ready to meet them.

It sounds like there are deeper issues to address than just the porn... .(and her sensitivity about other types of movies ties into it - it's all about the same fears) she knows in her heart that you already said you weren't ready to commit. These things are all reminders of that. But still, you did nothing wrong in the beginning by admitting that. Was it painful for her? Of course. But did you have a right to admit you weren't ready for that level of commitment? Yes. Therein lies the dilemma. She remembers that, and she knows that. Everything will remind her of that. But at the same time, she can't expect you to remain her emotional prisoner, either. You two seem to like each other and have an attraction to each other, and maybe there is even some love there. However, there may be some fundamental incompatiblities there too, and you are still young and this is your first serious relationship - and it's with an emotionally complex person. I don't blame you for having doubts and not knowing exactly how to handle it all. I really don't. And it's good that you recognize that you would rather indulge your passions with your actual partner and not porn. But until you meet the right person you feel that free and that comfortable with... .you can't force the issue. You know what you want, it seems, and maybe you are holding out for the "right one" before you really give your heart (and other parts!) away. 

It's also not fair for her to have a double standard, I agree. If she has strict boundaries about what she can tolerate in a relationship, but breaks them from her side by flirting with other guys and having them stay over, then yes, you have every right to feel as if she is demanding something she's not even giving back to you.

I could go really deep into the philosophical side of "commiting adultery in the heart" and "looking but not acting on it" etc... .And... .I'll go a little into it! ;-)

Our biggest and most truthful indicator of what's REALLY going on is our gut instinct. "Trust your gut," they say. "What do you feel in your heart? That's telling. And I believe - quite true.

However, our gut feelings do not always mesh with the expectations, social codes, and mores of "polite society". Many people act according to how they "should" and not how they want to. (Again - none of this pertains to criminal or abusive acts, that's a WHOLE different ballgame.)

Many people believe in or want monogamy because it's the "right thing to do" and perhaps - they want a lifelong companion. Somebody to always be there for them. These two inclinations are at least to a degee, rooted in selfishness. "I want to be perceived as good and right, and I want to have consistent company and love."

In their heart of hearts, perhaps, this isn't what they want on a primitive level. They may have other desires. But they conform, in order to have the "right" kind of relationship.

To say one has lustful thoughts about others, but doesn't act on them merely indicates that they are suppressing their own feelings, desires, and "gut instincts" for the sake of "correctness". It's not an act of heroism. It's an act of selfishness. ("I want to keep what I have and not be seen as a bad person."

Of course, "thinking but not acting on it" is sometimes the most practical solution. Like if you become angry and have a murderous urge toward someone. Surpressing that and not acting on it is the best solution, especially from a legal standpoint, as well as moral. You might be motivated to stay out of jail and off death row, but that's pretty understandable. You likely don't care what your victim thinks of you, but you do care about your own self-preservation. So the choice NOT to murder is easy for most.

It gets a lot more complex when you DO care about your "victim" but it's NOT illegal to act on what you are thinking. The repercussions of acting on your desires are not life threatening, but merely emotionally challenging. You can see the internal conflict this might cause. Why are you REALLY refraining? For them, or for you? And what do you gain from refraining? Usually, approval and acceptance. Maybe a commited partner. What do they gain? Hard to say. Maybe nothing if they know you think about doing it, but convince yourself not to. But if the urge is there, they will pick up on it, and that won't sit well with them, most likely.

In most cases, when a person is in a physically monogamous relationship, but still having lustful thougths about others, the whole act of "thinking about it, but not acting on it" merely means they lack the ambition, INHIBITION, or opportunity to act on it. The only difference between thinking and doing is ambition, motivation, and access. Maybe the other person wouldn't give them the time of day. Maybe they are just an unknown celebrity the person has no access to. Maybe they are afraid to approach the other person, or fear rejection. Maybe they fear a fight with their partner, or losing their partner. But somewhere inside, on some level they would like to act on it. Their refusal to do so is not an act of altruism. It's fear, guilt, or inability, in most cases. Are they doing their partner a service by not acting on it? Or are they merely placing them in the role of "prison guard" and harboring the thoughts of "I really would LIKE to have sex with that other person, but I don't BECAUSE OF YOU." That's kind of a "don't do me any favors" kind of thing to many, and most wouldn't really be ok with that consolation prize. The real dilemma is not whether you act on it in this case (because it's not illegal in at least most societies) it's whether you are suppressing your legitimate desires because someone else expects it of you, and you just want to keep that person around.

If I go to a restaurant and have a huge satisfying meal, and am stuffed to the gills, I don't ask to see the dessert menu. Because I know I'm not going to order anything, I don't want anything else, and it would be a waste of time. And if I'm that full, I don't give a rat's hindquarter's about dessert. Stupid analogy, I know but the point is, it's not that hard to be happy with what you have and not really desire more... .IF you are genuinely satisfied. This is rare, because many people a.) Are genuinely NOT satisfied with monogamy in itself or b.) Are genuinely NOT satified with their partner (on some deep fundamental level) but settled with them because they were available, and probably lovable, and liked them back and it provided some kind of gain.

The world would probably be a better place if those who genuinely did have wandering eyes/hearts/minds/private parts... .just let them wander until they were content with focusing on one person - for real. Not forcing themselves to do it, not pretending to do it... .but actually doing it. And at the same time having the decency to refrain from monogamy until it wasn't a chore or an exercise in restraint. And subsequently, take the chance on ending up alone in the end, kept company by only their fantasies, because their reality was never good enough, and nobody wants to be somebody else's "not good enough reality". Or perhaps admitting that true devotion was impossible for them, and finding someone who operates on the same plane and is ok with that, because they do and feel the same thing. <-- And there's the real key. Right there. Finding someone who is ok with the situation and perhaps sees eye to eye on it. Whatever it may be.

The problems arise when one person is genuinely invested in their partner (physically AND mentally) and the other is chomping at the bit to indulge in fantasies about anyone and everyone else, but conforming to someone else's expectations for selfish reasons. It all boils down to making a choice and prioritizing your actions according to your desired gains. Fantasizing about others and refraining from acting on it may be something your partner picks up on. That may be good enough for them, especially if they are doing the same thing. Or it may not, and they may wish to set you free to act on whatever you want, and not have to be a part of your "self-sacrifice" or feel like your "loyalty" is a half-assed consolation prize, given reluctantly and under duress or pressure. This causes resentment and major imbalances, understandably so. We all have a right to want what we want, but others have a right to say "I want no part of it, and no part of you."

All that said - OP - you actually did the right thing. You admitted up front that you were not that deeply commited. The mistake she made was not wanting to accept it, and sticking around trying to make it different. So as much of an advocate as I am of respect in a relationship, you did not lie in the beginning about your desires. She wanted it to be different and it isn't. It's unfortunate, but that's the reality. If she can't accept it, then you have done all you can. The question now is whether these differences are going to be tolerable for the both of you or not.

The human condition! Complex, even without BPD thrown in. 

[crunchtime]

President Jimmy Carter got into a bit of hot water in 1976 when he said the following in a Playboy interview:  “I've looked on a lot of women with lust. I've  committed adultery in my heart many times.”

In my mind, there is a big distinction between what I think is harmless fantasy and behavior that acts that fantasy out.

Certainly crunchtime's partner has the right to assess whether or not he is a suitable partner for her and ask him any question she wants. What is alarming to me is her pattern of grilling him and not backing off when he is clearly uncomfortable with her interrogating him.

Perhaps I have a different view, but I think that discretion can be the better part of valor. I don't find it necessary to share my thoughts in totality when posed a question such as "does this outfit make me look fat?"

Likewise if crunchtime was thinking of some attractive woman he saw at a sports event when he was pleasuring himself, should he be pressured to confess in detail? That to me would be far more damaging to a relationship than evading the question. And really, what harm is it to her if he momentarily entertained a fantasy about a pretty woman?

My BPD mother seemed to think she had every right to cross examine every thought that crossed my mind. That set me up for a very boundary-less existence. I think if our loved ones command us to give them access to all our thoughts and feelings on demand, that this is dangerous and sets us up for manipulative behavior.

This is more or less how I see it.

There is flat out lying on my part, which I accept responsibility for, but there is also the feeling of being interrogated when she asks me things like what have I thought or not thought about when I've masturbated, or if I ever imagined having sex with some girl other than her, whether it was a real girl I saw somewhere or a girl in a movie or TV show or something.

And trust me, I can relate to insecurity. A lot. I think I've even had a fair bout with body image issues given that I was severely anorexic in my teens after being prescribed antipsychotic medication that made me gain a lot of weight. That anorexia lasted for years.

I also compulsively read about penis size and women's satisfaction with it, read everything women said about that online that I could find and made myself sick over it for years. Objectively speaking I have nothing to worry about, but I was convinced I wasn't good enough and would spend a lot of time reading online and making myself feel sick over and over again. I was convinced of extremely insecure ideas that only extremely insecure people would harbor.

She asked me how I'd feel if she masturbated to a guy with a really huge dick. And honestly, it really threw me off. Part of me felt bad. Another part of me felt turned on. Not in a cuck way. I am not remotely into that. More in a cocky way of, cool, you're getting turned on by this guy who's got a couple inches on me, but mine's a lot better. Let me show you

Sorry for the cringe worthy winking emoticon. But That's how I imagined it in my head.

In all seriousness though, I was capable of understanding both how it would affect someone and make them feel awful, and how it could do the exact opposite.

And both feelings were genuine. It made it very hard to answer. My response to her in that specific instance was to laugh. She described how she would masturbate to it in such Vivid, Chronological detail I just broke out laughing and said "Are you coming on to me?"

She got a little mad but not BPD rage mad. She was literally saying stuff like "going faster and faster" and "getting closer and closer and more and more turned on" and many more vivid details in between and it went on for several minutes like an erotic novel audio book.

I can't even type this out without laughing. If it bothers you so much WHY would you explain it in SO MUCH DETAIL?

Just a little comic relief for you guys. I had to share that. This is a very serious topic but even with my girlfriend there are (rare) moments of lightheartedness around this stuff that go a long way IMO for healing/taking things easier.

And for the record I have been deliberately avoiding porn for a week or two now and am feeling better for it. For all the joking I do think it can have absolutely devastating effects in relationships that shouldn't be ignored.

I would never want to invalidate someone's feelings or experiences about that.

Still smiling at that one memory though :D

[BasementDweller]

Crunchtime, you posted the funny story while I was still writing my long-ass reply.   At least you two can laugh together about this... .sometimes.

We all can have worries and insecurities. And sometimes we indulge in fantasies simply because real intimacy is scary. Maybe we fear our own partner could potentially not be satisfied with us, but a fantasy person might think we are a sex god/goddess. But it gets unhealthy when fantasy stands in the way of us appreciating a potential reality that we really COULD have - with a little effort and dedication.

It sounds like you two have some possibility to get on the same page, the more you talk about this. Perhaps starting over with a clean slate, agreeing to help each other to put aside your own insecurities, and at least trying to see if you can work together to build a satisfying reality is worth a try. And kudos to you for recognizing how this might hurt her, and making an effort to try to avoid doing that. That's huge, and commendable.

Sometimes making your partner your fantasy, telling them that, asking them to indulge with you, and not inviting others into the mix (even if only imaginarily) actually works and you really start to savor what you have. (I fantasize about my own partner A LOT. Yes, he's accessible to me, but when I'm bored at work, and know I won't see him for eight hours... .my mind wanders all over the place about what I may get when I get home, and knowing he IS accessible to me and I can ask him for anything and actually receive it - is a HUGE turn on. And it leads to some great times when I get home and tell him what I have been thinking. And vice-versa.) Never underestimate the power of fantasy about your own partner. ;-) Boost each other up with reassurance and appreciation and see if that doesn't work wonders. If it doesn't work, and you two really can't find a common ground, so be it. You know you tried. But something tells me that UN-inviting insecurities and fantasy partners into the mix might go a long way for you two. You two actually have each other for the time being. That's something to appreciate. You have a willing partner. So does she. Maybe something worth fighting for and building upon?

[Cat Familiar]

To say one has lustful thoughts about others, but doesn't act on them merely indicates that they are suppressing their own feelings, desires, and "gut instincts" for the sake of "correctness". It's not an act of heroism. It's an act of selfishness. ("I want to keep what I have and not be seen as a bad person."

In most cases, when a person is in a physically monogamous relationship, but still having lustful thougths about others, the whole act of "thinking about it, but not acting on it" merely means they lack the ambition, INHIBITION, or opportunity to act on it. The only difference between thinking and doing is ambition, motivation, and access.

I respectfully disagree. Humans are moved by beauty in its many forms. Noticing a handsome man at the hardware store does not in any way make me inclined to pursue him, but I can still enjoy the splendor of God's handiwork. It has nothing to do with my happiness and satisfaction with my relationship with my husband.

It would be like saying, "I have a lovely painting in my living room. Therefore I will never again look at another painting, because I already have one."

To me, there is an element that is strictly biological in what pleases our aesthetic senses. How we choose to behave is a matter of conscious choice.

Implying that it's somehow a moral failing or being selfish to feel what we feel seems very judgmental.

[formflier]

There is a "canyon" of difference between thinking and acting.

I would resist and advise others to resist any thought or suggestion that there is a minimal difference.


FF

[BasementDweller]

There’s a negotiable difference between any two things that aren’t the same. The impact of anything on a relationship depends on the perspective of the parties involved. I trust it wasn’t missed where I said the key to a successful relationship is two parties who can agree to the terms. Whatever they may be.

Some people are ok with looking, thinking, doing... .whatever. Some people are ok with multiple partners, open relationships, group sex. Others would argue those things are harmful. None of that is of any consequence to me or my relationship. My partner and I know what works for us in that regard, and while BPD mood swings may be an issue, loyalty never has been. So I have no dog in this fight, as they say. The OP asked for help knowing full well his thoughts, actions, and behaviors had hurt his partner.

What it boils down to is if one person’s behavior hurts the other, there will be problems. People can excuse all manner of behavior if it serves them to be able to do it. That doesn’t mean it sits well with everyone. Everyone is free to think whatever they want. But when you form relationships with others, those thoughts may influence moods, behaviors, attitudes, etc... .and the relationship may be affected. The nature of the thoughts isn’t the issue. It’s the effect they have on the whole dynamic.

[Cat Familiar]

I trust it wasn’t missed where I said the key to a successful relationship is two parties who can agree to the terms. Whatever they may be.

So I have no dog in this fight, as they say.

To say one has lustful thoughts about others, but doesn't act on them merely indicates that they are suppressing their own feelings, desires, and "gut instincts" for the sake of "correctness". It's not an act of heroism. It's an act of selfishness. ("I want to keep what I have and not be seen as a bad person."

It sounds like you do indeed have a dog in this fight.

[BasementDweller]

None whatsoever. But if you care to elaborate on that assumption, please do. And why did you chop and paste my statements out of order from the way I posted them? I don’t get it. (?) I think it’s possible my post is being taken out of context somehow. Please ask if anything isn’t clear.

It seems a general observation about how certain behaviors affect others touched a nerve with some, although no individual person was singled out.

I apologize if that’s the case.

Long story summed up in a few words: In order for a relationship to be successful, a good starting point is that both parties agree to the terms.

[formflier]

Not that I would try to interpret "cat's thoughts... "   on why she cut and paste the way she did, but I easily think of many reasons other than selfishness that I don't act... or do act on thoughts.

As I've gotten older, I've become more deliberate about "reflecting on my thoughts" or "thinking things through", usually in quiet with a warm cup of coffee.

More often than not, or certainly half the time... .my initial thought about something gets discarded.

This "lesson I learned" has gone hand in hand with "the thought" that it is wise to separate the thought from the mouth by as much distance is possible.  Most thoughts I never speak of and I think my relationships are likely better.

Generally unwise  (IMO)  to have a relationship where thoughts are so "unguarded".

FF

[BasementDweller]

Makes sense, FF. Thoughts only become a problem when they become a persistent itch, and weigh down your existing reality. But on the flipside, if you can’t unguard them, they might not be compatible with your current partner. (Or your own conscience.) It is what it is. Are you open, or not? Your choice. You can coexist or be alone. Both choices are admirable.

[Cat Familiar]

And why did you chop and paste my statements out of order from the way I posted them?

Fair question. I agree that both parties ought to agree to the terms of a relationship. Unfortunately, these terms are often not discussed other than in generalities. Even things like whose family do we visit for the holidays are unlikely to be conferred about at the beginning of a relationship. Yes, it's important to decide questions about exclusivity and fidelity however I doubt that many people discuss which individuals can and cannot be fantasized about during masturbation.

When I noted that you claimed not to have any personal attachment to how different people conduct their relationship, this statement seemed at odds with what you had written previously.

Yes, I cut and pasted randomly, finding a bit of text to support my theory that you do have strong feelings on this topic, whether or not they apply to your current relationship.

I'll quote another bit from one of your posts:

But somewhere inside, on some level they would like to act on it. Their refusal to do so is not an act of altruism. It's fear, guilt, or inability, in most cases. Are they doing their partner a service by not acting on it? Or are they merely placing them in the role of "prison guard" and harboring the thoughts of "I really would LIKE to have sex with that other person, but I don't BECAUSE OF YOU." That's kind of a "don't do me any favors" kind of thing to many, and most wouldn't really be ok with that consolation prize. The real dilemma is not whether you act on it in this case (because it's not illegal in at least most societies) it's whether you are suppressing your legitimate desires because someone else expects it of you, and you just want to keep that person around.

You're making a lot of generalizations here as well as using judgmental words such as fear, guilt, inability and in your previous text, selfishness.

Though you would never think of looking at the desert tray after a big dinner, some of us always look to admire the artistry and exquisite beauty, though we'd never want to ruin a good meal with a rich dessert. 

[formflier]

My waistline is proof... .there is always room for a delicious treat after dinner... .

sorry... .couldn't resist...

FF

[crunchtime]

I can see BasementDweller's point. Personally I *might* fit into that category.

I can see Cat's point too.

My girlfriend has told me point blank that if an attractive girl tried to have sex with me, she thinks I wouldn't stop her. If I can't definitively, absolutely answer "no," then I guess that ambivalence is the answer.

I felt I was being truthful about my threesome fantasy, though. I might fit Basement's description and the only reason I'm refraining from sex with other women is selfish reasons. Honestly I have too much anxiety about it to know for sure.

That's why I had a lightbulb moment with a threesome. That, and my girlfriend has mentioned having some vague bisexual tendencies in the past, and has also specifically mentioned a threesome, but it was a really long time ago.

I think part of the reason it felt so good when she didn't judge me for it, and got excited about it, was I felt I was being accepted for who I was. That's the only time I've outright admitted getting sexually excited about another woman and she was OK with it and didn't guilt trip me and shame me about it.

I told her I wanted to masturbate via text with her and strangely enough it was probably the most unique sexual experience I've had with her. I think communicating fantasies is easier long distance than in person. And I knew she was paranoid about me masturbating to porn alone so I figured it might be worth trying masturbating together long distance.

It was great. For one part of it she was telling me about a threesome fantasy, and for the other part we just went back and forth based on a kink she has that she never told me about before.

It was great, and I felt so satisfied at the end. Definitely made me think.

But I know the core issue hasn't gone away. There is plenty of debate about whether humans are even naturally monogamous or not, even down to individual genetics.

And it's a tough question. Say if someone knew their partner would be 100% okay with it: would they still really not want to have even a one night fling with someone they found very sexually attractive? Is it more a necessary self restraint and self control to maintain balance and loyalty in a relationship? If there was no threat to the relationship, would people still refrain?

Even in open relationships I've known people to have issues with not being monogamous. It seems almost impossible for feelings NOT to get hurt even in a completely transparent relationship. So in a sense wondering if you'd sleep with someone else if it wouldn't affect your relationship might be pointless, as that seems to be an impossible scenario.

Either you deal with guilt for lying and secrecy, or accept that sleeping with someone else transparently will affect your relationship some way, some how.

I will say as a guy, I'm naturally drawn to notice attractive women. And I do fantasize about having sex with them, and that does make its way into masturbation.

However, pursuing sex and having sex seem very different from masturbating about it. Yes, I can get off to the fantasy, but I'm not going to pursue that to fulfillment in real life.

That's where I think Basement has a good point... .maybe it IS only suppression for selfish reasons or otherwise that keep us from acting on these desires.

I don't think there's any shame or dishonor or anything bad about that at all, either. Humans have a purely animalistic side and our ability to suppress that consciously is part of what makes us human.

I would've loved to beat some people to within an inch of their life, or even kill them, but I suppressed those urges because I was able to know better. That it isn't worth the repercussions. Then after those animalistic urges fade, and I feel they are no longer mine, it begs the question: were they ever really mine? Or was it just adrenaline filling my head with violent thoughts that I disowned after I came to my senses?

Relationships do have a lot to offer. Monogamous commitment is generally the price to pay for maintaining a relationship. Based on pure animal instinct, I would imagine most men and women would be screwing like rabbits if they had free access to partners they found sexually arousing.

But again... .controlling these impulses is part of what makes us human. I do find honesty to be important and it's part of why I struggle so much with my girlfriend grilling me. Hard to draw the line for me between what I fantasize about and what I would actually do, given the opportunity.

It's tough as a guy too, Because a woman soliciting you for sex out of nowhere, with you doing NOTHING to pursue her, is a pretty unlikely scenario to say the least. It almost is like asking me if some ethereal attractive woman materialized in my bedroom at midnight, took my pants off and put a condom on me, would I have sex with her?

I mean... .would you really blame me if I did? :D I think the reality is more that nothing can possibly happen with me and another woman without me directly pursuing it, which I'm not.

And even if it's just out of selfishness and guilt and anxiety, I can't see myself pursuing another woman as long as I'm with her. This is part of why I lost a few friends. They compulsively told me the ONLY possible way I could fix the relationship would be to sleep with another woman, and then shamed me calling me a p***y because I didn't want to do that, and eventually said they would never talk to me again until I slept with another woman, so I never talked to them again  Some friends, huh.

Anyway, thanks again, great comments all around, and lots to think about. Still hard for me to wrap my head around the fantasy thing. Cat mentioned a scenario like seeing a handsome man out shopping... .sometimes when I've seen pretty girls out shopping I definitely masturbated to fantasies of it later, even though I didn't really remember what they looked like :D

But it's tough when my girlfriend has argued that imagining and masturbating to someone else means you might as well have had sex with them. Part of me thinks that's ridiculous and untrue and I don't want to get pathological about it.

There IS a big difference between fantasy and action, as has been pointed out in this thread. BPD might blur the lines here, to where it seems like giving Some one the death sentence for fantasizing about murdering someone is OK.

She's flat out accused me of cheating on her and told me that me going on porn or fantasizing about other women and masturbating to it is no different than her going out and sucking a bunch of guys' dicks.

I do think they're different. The scary part for me is feeling tenuous about that, like maybe she's right. I've never had that kind of uncertainty before about something like that.

[formflier]

Dude... .

So... I'm probably an old fogey here.  My sexual coming of age was well before cell phones.  

Instead of texting I wrote notes and handed them to girls.  Any phone conversation was on a landline and adults were likely close on both ends.

Things just seemed simpler.  It would be unimaginable to have conversations anywhere close to this with any of my past girlfriends.  Perhaps that was why it was doubly shocking when late in marriage my wife started accusing me of crazy sex stuff.

Kinda chuckling and shaking my head.  Texting and... you know... .self pleasure.  I just never thought... .

FF

[BasementDweller]

Wow - this thread went off the rails while I slept. Interesting conversation. Lots of interesting points by everybody. I'd like to address them all, but that would be one hell of a long message. Eh, even longer than usual.   I'll try my best to address some things, and maybe will need to make a separate post to reply to the OP, since his message contained a lot of content.

Cat Familair said:

"Yes, it's important to decide questions about exclusivity and fidelity however I doubt that many people discuss which individuals can and cannot be fantasized about during masturbation."

I sprayed coffee out of my nose when I read this.  We will get to this. Soon.


"Yes, I cut and pasted randomly, finding a bit of text to support my theory that you do have strong feelings on this topic... ."

Thank you for explaining that. I can understand why you did that now. I'd respectfully suggest that one should be careful about that though, because it can cause the original message to be taken out of context. Think about political smear campaigns where a politician's speech is picked apart and re-arranged to make the message sound controversial or offensive. I completely have no problem with clarifying certain things I wrote, but would hope I'd not be taken out of context. I suppose that could happen under any circumstances, though. I don't think you were intending anything malicious (at all) but I did worry that you were misreading my intent.

I sincerely do not have strong feelings on the topic, but I do have observations and viewpoints. (Truth be known I have strong feelings about almost nothing. Feelings are not my strong suit.) I enjoy theorizing, analyzing, and assessing the logic of things, and the cause/effect relationship between things as well as human behavior, etc... .But rarely if ever to I attach personal emotion to much of anything, save for a few living things that are part of my daily life. And even then, I'm not real emotive.

"You're making a lot of generalizations here as well as using judgmental words such as fear, guilt, inability and in your previous text, selfishness. "

I agree 100% that I am making generalizations. I freely admit that, considering that generalizations are based upon a recognizable majority, that was my point. "Generally speaking, people do not like to eat raw chicken." I could stand by that statement. I think it's fairly easy to support the notion that most do not.

"Nobody likes to eat raw chicken"... .That's actually not true. I wouldn't say that. I do apologize as I can see how it could be construed that I was suggesting EVERY single person acts the same way, and I want to clarify that I don't think that. I believe in general, though, that my statements were correct. I base this on what I have been told by many others about their own personal experiences and motivations. I know not everyone thinks or acts the same, however.

The words themselves are not judgemental. Fear, guilt, inability - I can observe or assess these things, but I absolutely am not judging. If someone said "I have thought about skydiving, but I don't want to die because my parachute didn't open," I would assess that they are not acting on their thoughts of skydiving because of fear.

"I really want to walk to the mall, but I am too tired and my knees hurt." I'd assess lack of action due to inability there.

"I wanted to leave you the last piece of cake, but I was hungry so I ate it." I'd assess the action of NOT leaving the cake was due to selfishness. (Ok, that one is a little more personal, especially since we have a lot of dessert lovers on this thread, hahaha... .) But please understand, I am assessing, and maybe even analyzing, but not judging.

"Though you would never think of looking at the desert tray after a big dinner, some of us always look to admire the artistry and exquisite beauty, though we'd never want to ruin a good meal with a rich dessert."


So you admit you'd be ruining it?  But for real... .have at it! The only thing you can cheat on with a pastry is your diet.   But ask Formflier and his waistline about the kind of trouble his ogling the dessert cart got him into! 

To be continued... .

[BasementDweller]

Because it's extremely interesting:

Let's for the sake of the OP's topic and what seems to be a lot of interest and opinions on this matter, talk about the difference between thoughts and actions and the possible repercussions thereof.

Consider these scenarios:

Your colleague at work tells you that he has fantasized about murdering someone, and thinks about it often. Would you feel entirely comfortable going alone with him to his apartment?

He hasn't acted on it. (So far as you know.) Only thought about it.

Your neighbor mentions she is short on money, and has seriously considered stealing something of value in order to get some quick cash. Would you feel comfortable letting her house sit for you while you are out of town?

Again, no action. Just thoughts.

A friend tells you that he has been looking at young children playing in the schoolyard near his house, and has been fantasizing about having sex with them, and masturbated after looking at them. Would you feel comfortable letting him babysit your young child?

Your young daugter tells you she has considered starving herself to attain the emaciated body type she saw a picture of on an anorexia web-page. Would you be comfortable with this, even if she has not stopped eating yet?

Your sibling tells you they have thought about suicide repeatedly, and have researched on the internet about ways to do it. Would you feel comfortable leaving them alone with a weapon? Or would you just dismiss it as only thoughts?

A friend tells you he is really into bestiality and fantasizes about having sex with animals. He spends time on illicit websites, masturbating to films of people molesting animals. Would you feel comfrotable letting him pet-sit for you?

Sure, I grant you that these situations are a bit more alarming, because if thoughts lead to action, someone could be hurt or killed, or at least a crime would be commited. But isn't it a relief that they haven't acted on it? Or are the thoughts alone cause for alarm?

Let's clean it up a bit, and remove the concepts of crime and physical harm from the equation.

Your partner tells you that he or she thinks often about your 18 year old son or daughter and masturbates regularly while imagining having sex with them.

No action has occured. Just thoughts. Would you feel comfortable going out of town for a week and leaving the two of them alone at the house together? If not, why? It's only thoughts, and an 18 year old is an adult. Your kid probably has no interest in your partner. It's not gonna happen! It's just a fantasy! Heck, let's make them them 19 or 20, instead. Comfortable yet? It's not a crime! Or do you feel a little sick to your stomach just thinking about it?

Ok let's not make it your kid. Let's make it your sibling or parent. Is that far enough removed to feel ok about? "I think about your mother and masturbate and imagine having sex with her."

Alright, maybe that's still too disturbing to some. How about this: Your partner confesses to looking at, fantasizing about, and masturbating to mental images of a work colleague that he or she sees every day. Would you feel comfortable with the two of them going on a business trip alone together?

Ok, let's not make it even a colleague. How about a commuter that rides the same train each day? Is that far enough removed? Because it's easier to believe that it can't or won't happen? (The action part that is.)

But no action occured in ANY of those scenarios. Were any of the thoughts disturbing enough? Would they be enough to cause real problems in the way you related to the other person after learning about them? Would any of those scenarios cause real anguish even without the action? Would they severely damage trust? <-- Important question there.

"I fantasize and masturbate while thinking about screwing your 18 year old kid. But I haven't acted on it! Have fun on your vacation."

How big is the divide between thoughts and actions really? Or more appropriately - are thoughts really "no big deal?" Are they really no reason to get upset?

Your partner tells you they regularly admire other people, and become aroused and masturbate while thinking of them. Would you feel comfortable that your relationship is bulletproof after hearing that?

Anybody can cherry pick whatever they want to suit their own comfort levels, but the bottom line is that thoughts do not necessarily have to lead to action to create a VERY uncomfortable and painful situation for many.

I guess it's not hard to say some thoughts are "harmless" and others are "disturbing", but that's casting moral aspersions based on one's own standards isn't it? What's really the difference between your partner vigorously masturbating while thinking about having sex with your 18 year old kid, versus a random unknown person in the grocery store? That's your call. What's wrong with being horrified that your friend thinks about pedophilia? Most people ARE horrified at even the thought of this. It's a very uncomfortable topic. What's wrong with the OP's partner being disturbed that he looks at other women and masturbates? It's uncomfortable for HER. Hell, I love spiders and will readily pick them up and handle them. I'm thrilled when I see a spider. Many people throw a fit, scream, and panic at the mere glance of a spider. Do I think it's ridiculous? Yes. Do I have any clue at all how or why a cute little fuzzy arachnid could possibly bother anybody? Nope. But that doesn't make them wrong in their fear and disgust, and me right in my comfort level.

Two themes that come up on this site VERY frequently are thoughts of suicide and emotional affairs.

Most universally agree that someone admitting fantasies about suicide is cause for alarm, and most would even call for emergency intervention. Why wait for the action to occur? Wouldn't that be too late? But you can bet that every successful suicide started with a thought. If nobody cared about suicidal thoughts, and believed there was a huge cavern between thoughts and action - there would be a hell of a lot MORE successful suicides happening.

How about emotional affairs? I have read many posts where people have described their partner chatting other people up on Facebook, or having long phone conversations, or going to another person to emotionally vent, and have called it an affair. Even without sex or any kind of intimate contact happening. I do not doubt at all that this was painful, hurtful, and they felt betrayed. But how is having conversations or talking on Facebook an "affair" but ogling someone, getting turned on, and vigorously masturbating while dreaming of plowing that person blind is still totally faithful? As long as they don't dare have a conversation with them, right?

Or... .right? I dunno. It's not really black or white, is it?

I fully understand that there is a difference in the physical OUTCOME of having just thoughts vs. actions. But there can still be a significant amount of damage to relationships and the mental state of people in general as a result of thoughts. The morality of certain thoughts can be debated and argued and maybe never determined, but the pain caused by them can absolutely be measured.

How much thoughts (especially recurrent/persistent ones) can be an indicator of a much more serious underlying problem, or a sinister intent that might become action under the right circumstances... .well that's a whole separate topic. But it's relevant.

That's all I'm saying.

[BasementDweller]

Apologies for the serial posts - this will be the last one in this "batch" for now. But to address some of Crunchtime's very insightful post:

"I might fit Basement's description and the only reason I'm refraining from sex with other women is selfish reasons."

It's possible, and not uncommon. Many people do the "right thing" for selfish rather than altruistic reasons. (Think of corporations decreasing pollution output not because they give a damn about the environment, but because they want to increase profits through good PR.) There are whole entire upper academic courses of study devoted to the ethics and morals of everything... .It's a thing, and I don't think it's judgemental to recognize that.

"That's the only time I've outright admitted getting sexually excited about another woman and she was OK with it and didn't guilt trip me and shame me about it."

It's a good thing that you were able to have this conversation with her and she did not get upset. It's important to consider that no matter what she may say or do she cannot MAKE you feel guilt or shame. She can try, and she can say certain words, but if you FEEL guilt or shame, those are your feelings. You own them and they come from within you. If you do indeed feel those things at times, maybe examine why, and see if changing some things might help those feelings to go away. It is within your power.

"I told her I wanted to masturbate via text with her and strangely enough it was probably the most unique sexual experience I've had with her. I think communicating fantasies is easier long distance than in person. And I knew she was paranoid about me masturbating to porn alone so I figured it might be worth trying masturbating together long distance.

It was great."

Good to hear! I bet she felt much better about that too. It's nice that you realized that making your partner the fodder of your fantasies can be quite awesome.

"There is plenty of debate about whether humans are even naturally monogamous or not, even down to individual genetics. "

It's a little bit of everything. The spectrum of sexual behaviors, and the factors influencing them are as vast as the universe. People are gay, straight, bi, or anywhere in between. Some are monogamous, some are polyamorous some are demi-sexual, some are asexual... .some of this we are born with, some of it is influenced by environment or experiences. There are almost 8 billion people on the planet these days, and everyone is unique. I'll just leave that here. Because all the time in the world won't allow a full examination of that topic! ;-)

"Say if someone knew their partner would be 100% okay with it: would they still really not want to have even a one night fling with someone they found very sexually attractive? Is it more a necessary self restraint and self control to maintain balance and loyalty in a relationship? If there was no threat to the relationship, would people still refrain?"

It depends... .some people are in relationships and their partner is NOT ok with it and they still don't refrain. Others are single, maybe even lonely, and the opportunity is there, and for whatever reason, they DO refrain. See above, haha. This is a highly individual choice.

"I will say as a guy, I'm naturally drawn to notice attractive women. And I do fantasize about having sex with them, and that does make its way into masturbation."

Well, as a hetero guy, who is capable of primary attraction, based on surperficial appearances, that's understandable. Not all guys fall into that category. But you do, and that's a factor in the issues you are having with your partner. Being a guy is not an excuse for doing things that might hurt your partner in itself, but the sort of guy that you are is at least a factor. (Not saying it's bad or wrong. Merely a factor.) For instance, if you were demisexual, this particular dilemma would not exist in this context.

"However, pursuing sex and having sex seem very different from masturbating about it. Yes, I can get off to the fantasy, but I'm not going to pursue that to fulfillment in real life.

That's where I think Basement has a good point... .maybe it IS only suppression for selfish reasons or otherwise that keep us from acting on these desires."


Hence my previous post. Your partner knows this and the fact that you haven't had actual sex with another person is of no comfort to her. Because that's not what she's worried about. She's worried about the possibility, and the admitted desire to possibly do it. One needn't have BPD to worry about that. Most people worry at some point about being hurt by the one they love, and trusting someone is terrifying for many. Especially if the other person has already expressed a fantasy about betraying that trust. That's just the unfortunate reality. Her fear IS real. And feeling like you desire other women, but refrain because of her expectations doesn't make her feel so secure. Are you able to empathize with that?

"I would've loved to beat some people to within an inch of their life, or even kill them, but I suppressed those urges because I was able to know better. That it isn't worth the repercussions. Then after those animalistic urges fade, and I feel they are no longer mine, it begs the question: were they ever really mine? Or was it just adrenaline filling my head with violent thoughts that I disowned after I came to my senses?"

Extremely profound statement! I am impressed with your insight here.

If you were able to completely disown and even competely dissociate something as primal and powerful as murderous rage, then you have incredible "mind over matter" capabilities. That said, you likely have the ability to suppress, disown, ignore, or even override sexual urges and attractions toward people other than your partner. Should you? I'm not saying that. Would it be easy? Not at first. (The mind is an incredible muscle that gets stronger over time, though.)

But it sounds like you have powerful enough resolve to choose - IF it was more important to you to make your relationship more harmonious than it was to indulge full-bore in your fantasies. I am neither judging, nor advising here at all... .but merely asking... .is it possible a lot of these mental masturbatory flights of fancy you engage in that upset your girlfriend so much, are not because you "can't help it"... .but because you enjoy it, regardless of if it hurts your partner or not? I'm just asking, and it might be worth at least thinking about, if for no other reason than trying to understand where she is coming from. Indulging and ruminating in fantasies and masturbation about others IS a choice, and if that's your choice, then that's your right. But any repercussions that come from that choice, you also play a part in. Is either you or her "to blame"? No. It really just boils down to her reaction to an event. You do what you do, she feels what she feels.

"I would imagine most men and women would be screwing like rabbits if they had free access to partners they found sexually arousing."

Some would, but it's hard to say how many. Realistically, most people on planet earth have that access. There are a lot of sexually active people on earth, and many people are single and totally able to partake. Many non-single people still feel free to partake. Some people are very promiscuous. Others are more introverted and choosy. Some people have a much harder time finding multiple people attractive than they do finding them available.  

"It's tough as a guy too, Because a woman soliciting you for sex out of nowhere, with you doing NOTHING to pursue her, is a pretty unlikely scenario to say the least."

It actually isn't. At all. Don't be so pessimistic.  It's gonna happen. More than once in your life. It happens all the time. Hell, it's the law of the land in the Northern European countries! 

"It almost is like asking me if some ethereal attractive woman materialized in my bedroom at midnight, took my pants off and put a condom on me, would I have sex with her?"

We may have to start a new thread about whether or not having sex with a ghost is cheating.

"This is part of why I lost a few friends. They compulsively told me the ONLY possible way I could fix the relationship would be to sleep with another woman, and then shamed me calling me a p***y because I didn't want to do that, and eventually said they would never talk to me again until I slept with another woman, so I never talked to them again tongue Some friends, huh."


Some friends indeed. You lost nothing in losing them, trust me.

... .sometimes when I've seen pretty girls out shopping I definitely masturbated to fantasies of it later, even though I didn't really remember what they looked like :D

Is this really a thing? AAAAANNNNNND... .I am now remembering every single man I have ever seen staring at me "like that" in public and I am considering scrubbing my brain with bleach, slapping on a full-face, floor length burka, and becoming a stone-cold agoraphobe.   Not you, though. I'm sure we have never crossed paths.   But yikes.   
 
"But it's tough when my girlfriend has argued that imagining and masturbating to someone else means you might as well have had sex with them. Part of me thinks that's ridiculous and untrue and I don't want to get pathological about it."

To you it is ridiculous and untrue. To her is is not. To me a fear of spiders is ridiculous. I think many others would argue. ;-) It's all about perception.

"There IS a big difference between fantasy and action, as has been pointed out in this thread. BPD might blur the lines here, to where it seems like giving Some one the death sentence for fantasizing about murdering someone is OK. "

I don't have BPD and I'm as a rule rather unemotional and more logic motivated. I would not give someone the death penalty for fantasizing about murdering someone. But I might trust them a little less, and be less inclined to want to be alone with them in an isolated place if ya know what I mean. There was a recent news case in Denmark where a guy who built his own submarine had admitted to fantasizing about murdering a person and dismembering the corpse. He had even looked this up online. A lot of people thought he was weird, but nobody took him seriously. A journalist from Sweden joined him on the submarine to write an article about the submarine. He murdered her and dismembered her corpse. https://www.thelocal.dk/20180116/danish-inventor-peter-madsen-charged-with-journalists-murder-prosecutors

Somebody should have been worried about this guy's thoughts. Just saying. ;-)

She's flat out accused me of cheating on her and told me that me going on porn or fantasizing about other women and masturbating to it is no different than her going out and sucking a bunch of guys' dicks.

If you fantasizing about other women and masturbating while watching porn hurts her as much as her sucking massive abounts of dicks would hurt you... .then it is the same. At least in the amount of damage it does to the relationship.

All that said, I know you are a young guy, and you are in your first sexual relationship. There is a lot of stuff that you still have yet to figure out and experience, and it's understandable that your hormones are all over the place. I do not fault you AT all for anything you have said, but I CAN understand how or why this stuff might upset your partner. As you get older and have more relationships, it's quite possible your persepctives on relationships, sex, attraction, and EVERYTHING that goes along with all of it will grow, develop, and change over time. How? Hard to say. But it will. Right now, a lot of this is new to you, and it's no suprise it is confusing and frustrating.

Ah, adulthood and relationships. Ain't it grand? 

 
 

[Enabler]

Question -

Does your GF own a vibro?

Does she use it?

What does she think about?

Mrs Enabler has a full arsenal of toys and given the number of dud batteries in her bedside drawer she's either turned into a local recycling center or she's having her own little toy time.

BasementDweller - great argument you put forward and very compelling. There is no "answer" and it's somewhere in the grey, and that grey has to rely on trust. All relationships be that sitting next to your axe murdering fantasizing work colleague or being married to a sweet little angel. It's not rational to trust since the bell curve would always indicate that all outcomes and relationship disappointments are ALWAYS on the table. It's the conscious/unconscious probability we place on each outcome occurring that ultimately leads us into accepting the risk of being in a relationship or not. Our individual risk tolerance will determine whether or not we find it acceptable to take or leave the relationship.

Is one of the key differences here that he has been VERY open and honest about the stuff that goes on in his head (and I don't think his head is too far off a lot of men and I'm 39), he has laid bare the risk profile for her, she has chosen to stay in the relationship yet she tries to force change in his conscious and subconscious thoughts to meet her risk tolerance. She implies he is bad because he does not fit her risk profile. She implies her own high probability of him defaulting based on what he has told her.

I applied a low probability of my wife defaulting and I was wrong (so I believe). I trusted he and she didn't meet my expected outcome. My W on the other hand has never trusted me however I have always physically forsaken all others as per my marital vows.

There's no reward without risk and love always leaves a mark.

[BasementDweller]

"He has laid bare the risk profile for her, she has chosen to stay in the relationship yet she tries to force change in his conscious and subconscious thoughts to meet her risk tolerance. She implies he is bad because he does not fit her risk profile. She implies her own high probability of him defaulting based on what he has told her. "

That's a good point, and similar to something I mentioned to the OP earlier - he told the truth in the beginning that he didn't even feel ready for monogamy, and yet she stayed in the relationship hoping that things would change, and is upset now that the things that bothered her still exist. She knew her tolerance limits, and she knew his behaviors and tendencies, and she knew immediately they did not sit well with her. For that I can also sympathize with the OP's situation that it is as frustrating for him as it is for her.

"There's no reward without risk and love always leaves a mark."

Amen. If that doesn't sum up a relationship with a pwBPD (or any relationship, really) then I don't know what does. :-)

[formflier]

Vibrators on bpdfamily... .   

Actually... .now that I think about it... .I have posted about vibrators here before.  Since we are all being open about what we bring to the "sex table"... .

So... .paranoia is an odd thing. 

There I was with a vibrator in hand while my wife was already in our jetted hot tub.  I could tell she was staring at my mustache and my manliness was overwhelming her. (ladies... .prepare to calm yourselves... .deep breathing)  Yet... .you should always up your game so I started talking about "the force" (and using it on my wife) and making dramatic light saber sounds.

I know... I know... man of your dreams and all that... .I'm really not trying to tease any females out there(and certainly not a second time... )  But... .mustache and light saber sounds...    

Anyway... .out of nowhere my wife freaks out and demands to know what I was doing and "what I was thinking" (applicable somehow to this thread)

I tried to explain that I was thinking about getting laid and lightsabers... .and... .well... that was really all the room I had in my brain.

She believed I was plotting to kill her with a vibrator... .well... until she didn't believe it anymore.


Oh... those were the days.



FF

[BasementDweller]

"She believed I was plotting to kill her with a vibrator... .well... until she didn't believe it anymore."

Is it horrible for me to be laughing hysterically right now? Because if she really was scared... .then of course that's unfortunate... .but I don't think you could have possibly told that story any funnier.

How long was she in fear of "death by vibrator"? 

[Cat Familiar]

Basement, you make a good argument for how thoughts could possibly lead to actions and I agree.

Here's the rub. (Again no pun intended, but why not? 
When people have thoughts that don't fit the paradigm of "I only have eyes for my beloved", then what happens? If, they believe, as do you (possibly?--I don't want to speak as to your beliefs) that they are "selfish" and that these thoughts could be the precursor to acting out in ways that could ultimately sabotage their relationships, then they have a problem.

Thoughts of selfishness add further to a "shame-load" that so many of us carry. So perhaps they try "not to think" about some attractive person they've seen. (Remember the example of ":)on't think of an elephant"?) Trying NOT TO THINK of something ultimately makes us think more about it. Anyone who has tried dieting undoubtedly has run into this problem. (I am not going to eat ice cream. I am not going to eat ice cream. ICE CREAM. ICE CREAM!)

Then one is left feeling tremendous shame looking at the empty pint of ice cream leaving a puddle on the kitchen counter.

I like to allow myself the mental freedom to think anything. I have no fear that I will act out something that is not in keeping with my principles. And many things such as those you mentioned in your post have absolutely no interest for me to contemplate.

I will say that people have fascination for behavior they will never engage in. That's why they watch movies with disturbing themes. (I'm very selective about what movies I watch and I have no interest in watching violence because I don't want that imagery in my head.)

Another thing is that in the midst of the honeymoon phase of attraction, most people would probably agree that they only have eyes for their beloved. After that phase passes, and sadly it does for nearly everyone--or so I've heard--yes, this is a generalization--I wonder how many people are subject once again to the biological sense of seeing an attractive person and having one's heart skip a beat.

Then, according to your paradigm, we should not feel this way if we are truly committed to our relationships?

[formflier]

Here's the rub. (Again no pun intended, but why not? 
 

I tip my hat... .to the Cat.

Nicely done... .     

FF

[formflier]

How long was she in fear of "death by vibrator"?  

Well... .she toyed with it for a couple of weeks and now tries her best to believe it never happened.

The first time she met my P, which was shortly after this happened, it was my first meeting with P as well, my wife jumped up in session and acted out how she "pinned" the vibrator against the wall as I was trying to shove it in the water or otherwise electrocute her (never mind the GFCI outlet).

P said later to me that it was one of the most preposterous paranoid things she has ever seen.

My wife also "turned me in for attempted murder" to a preacher... .which... of course, is the rational thing to do when your husband tried to take your life... .with a vibrator.

Right... .you really can't make this stuff up.

Big picture:  You can choose to chuckle about this stuff or go bonkers yourself.  I try to have a sense of humor.  I didn't find it the least bit funny that night... .because I really did have only 2 things on my mind... .sex and the use of "the force"

FF