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So uBPDw and I just had our anniversary.  it more or less went well. 

next day we rec'd a card from my mom congratulating us.  she made it herself, and on the inside of the card included a picture of us and our kids, along with a comment that a beautiful marriage created a beautiful family.

wife didn't like this because apparently my mom only sent us that picture because she didn't want a picture of us happy together in her house because she "hates" my wife.

at work, i suddenly got text bombed about it.  I didn't take the bait, and just responded with a pic of my to-do list to show I was busy and working hard.

when I got home, wife was super bouncy and aggressive, like she gets when she knows she got to me.  she immediately brought up the card and how horrible my mom is, etc. and how if that upset me, I needed to decide whether I wanted to be a husband or a son... .

I said bye to my kids and walked out.  came home much later.

I'm so sick of this roller coaster... .I want off. 

Hi PeteWitsend,

That sounds pretty difficult to hear especially after you had such a nice time! So she was dysregulating and you decided to go ahead and take space and walk out? Was it still bad when you got back?

Did you JADE? Try to convince her the photo that your mom sent did not have a bad intention?

wishing you peace, pearl.

p.s. your mom's gesture sounded very, very nice by the way! sorry it was not received as such!

I didn't JADE.  her problems with my mom - as she imagines them - have been going on for over 4 years now.  we've only been married for 5.  

the last few times as soon as it starts, I just leave, and either go for a walk or do yardwork, or go to the bar (if it's at night). I just have zero patience to navigate that minefield, discuss calmly and resolve it, especially when it starts when I'm at work or tired from a long day. 

I really resent it, because I'm focused on my job and taking care of my responsibilities, and instead of being a source of support, my wife is attacking me over this nonsense. 

I told her "there's nothing wrong with this card.  it's a nice card."  and she started raising her voice, & made the son/husband comment.  I just left the room, put my coat on and told my kids goodnight.  she kinda panicked, but I didn't care.  

I texted her, calmly, that I was not going to sit there and listen to her attack me, especially in front of our kids.  she responded with the FOG, then started telling me she needs a real man,  not a mama's boy.  After that, I responded in kind.  (YES I KNOW TEXTS ARE A BAD IDEA AT MOMENTS LIKE THOSE).  

today it's more of the same, demanding I apologize for how I acted, no acknowledgment that she started the entire thing.

the other factor really making me upset is her own family situation.  her mom lives abroad, and we filed all the paperwork for her to emigrate here and come live with us, starting in a couple months, in April.  even though when we filed everything we were in a bad place in our marriage (nearly coming to divorce), I graciously signed the docs for her mom, as a show of good faith and commitment.

now... .she and her mom fight like cats and dogs.  my MIL is an emotional nightmare as well.  I was not looking forward to her mom moving here, but I was prepared to tolerate this situation only insofar as things were "fair" and she generally controlled herself, and stopped attacking my family. 

This last episode makes me strongly consider ending it.  I just can't go in any deeper.  only single concern of mine are my boys (4,2) who will be stuck with them 50% of the time.  I hate to do it to them, but I am just miserable and sick of the dysregulation. 

before I talked myself out of it, by considering that most of the week, things were good.  but the episodes... .even though they might be 2-3 days out of 7, are just too much

Hey PeteWitsend,

I hear ya! It is not easy to deal with such stuff! I have hit that wall a few times myself... .feeling like I'm just running out of road and need some improvement or I've gotta just save what is left of my life.

Sounds like this MIL issue could be a pretty serious one given how you are feeling! If she comes you've got a lot more drama on your plate, and if you end up doing something to the relationship that effects this... .well, you've got problems there as well. Are you weighing that all out in your head may I ask? What feels right?

Do you typically cool down on this stuff and then go through the cycles over and over?

take care, pearl.

Yes.  what feels right is leaving and moving on with my life.  the MIL situation (my MIL/her mom) is troubling enough. but then wife also plans on bringing my FIL here at some point, assuming his immigration case could be approved, which is a big IF given his extensive criminal history.  (that's another story... .) I've made my opposition to my FIL living with us clear, and said only if my MIL plans to take him in (another IF, since they're divorced and quite bitter toward eachother).  He refuses to work, and I really don't want a 59 year old ex con sponging off me.

Wife is largely in denial about her parents situation and imagines it will only be positive.  Biggest red flag is her inability to even discuss our options should it not work out. 

by playing emotional games over her parent's situation (essentially blaming me for their own plight) she's painted me into a corner here:  either I accept them & pay to take care of them, and am miserable with them living with us, or I put my foot down, and then am blamed for not taking care of her parents, keeping her from her family, etc.

sometimes I think its in my kids' best interests that we tough it out.  others have told me no, I can still be there for them, and staying miserable does no one any favors.



I cool down, sure.  but the nagging feeling of "You KNOW you're just postponing the inevitable" is always there.  It doesn't go away.  I remember how exhausted and hopeless I feel, and as soon as she starts up again... .a few days/weeks/a month later, I'm right there, ready to get out. 

I think your disengaging from this drama bait ( the argument )is a good approach. If it's absurd then no sense discussing it. Not reacting by JADE or arguing doesn't give energy to that.

I won't comment on your considering leaving  the marriage - that's a decision only you can make- but your approach to this particular issue is a good one - to have your boundary not to get into her interpretation of your mothers intent.

PeteWitsend,

Can you rescind what you signed for the MIL (her Mom)?   I can't imagine any possible benefit to your relationship or YOU from going forward with further entanglements.

"More often than not" the things I've tried to do in order to be accommodating to my wife, especially if I've tried to "accommodate her family have "fed the monster" and made a sense of entitlement bigger... worse.

I think that you be proactive about this.  Once MIL gets here, it will be harder to undo.

Said another way... if you are hating life now, how... specifically... does bringing MIL into the picture help?

FF

Hi Petewitsend,

I can certainly relate to the harassment at work, and wanting some peace when I got home.  I can relate to completely running out of energy to deal with baloney.  But there are some improvements you could make that are low energy, and could lower the drama a bit.  The one that jumped out at me was sending her a copy of your to-do list.  In another marriage, that could work.  It could even be a nice shorthand that says, "Honey, I'm totally buried, can we talk when I get home?"  But not so much for a pwBPD.  It is likely that she saw that as invalidating, possibly even worse than a non-response.  Garbage texts at work take up a ton of energy.  It took you energy to receive that text, be annoyed, and respond.  Imagine seeing a text like that, calmly reminding yourself that it's garbage and you don't even acknowledge garbage, and going on with your work day without wasting energy on it.  Could that work well for you?

In my experience, finding the lowest energy ways to deal with garbage interruptions at work is very important.

WW

thanks everyone for the responses, I've read them all.

FF - I don't believe I can undo the letter of support for my MIL.  it's signed as a condition of the government approving her immigration case.

that being said, I (and I still need to research this better, but... .) it's not an obligation to pay $X / month; it's an agreement to pay for her should she be unable to work, ie no gov't assistance for her.  and it's not for the rest of her life, and my wife was the primary signer on the document.  

I kind of felt, as much of a nightmare as my MIL is, at least she and my wife will "cancel eachother out," ie keep eachother "entertained" so I'm not stuck being the one to fill the bottomless pit of need & attention.

plus, at least now my MIL does not speak English beyond a few words, so she can't personally harass me.  maybe I'm being a little naïve... .?

WW - my typical approach at work is to ignore the bait.  Usually it works, but she keeps at it until she gets a raise out of me.  in this case I texted my to-do list as a response to another text from her that didn't quite make sense, but said something about "it being great to be able to leave early Friday to see family."  (i usually work late, and have a demanding job; me "leaving early" is 6:30 PM.

over the last day, we've mostly been ignoring eachother.  i like this better.

I go back to something she texted me before our anniversary about being happy about how I survived her "tests" or "challenges" when we were dating and didn't break up.  I realized she's still doing that now, hence the demand I prove I was a better husband than a son, by agreeing with her that my mom's card was mean-spirited, even though freaking Johnny Cochrane would have trouble spinning the card as anything but a sincere gesture.  but it's not about that, it's about filling the bottomless pit.

it's not "love," as much as she wants to call it that. it's FOG... .

I see the thinking, I don't agree with it.  Perhaps I'm biased.  I moved closer to my inlaws a couple years ago, when wife and  I were relatively good.  :)rastic change... .DRASTIC... .after about a month of exposure to her FOO.  There is no way to predict what they will do... .BUT, do you really think there will be a positive outcome?  

How are you on boundaries?  :)oes you wife have any access to your money?  

Perhaps... perhaps... .if you don't engage in any BPD silly... .perhaps they go after each other and perhaps if you have strong boundaries you can protect yourself with they turn on you because you won't "participate".  :)rama triangle.  What happens when they both try to be persecutor... .?  and aim at you?

What is your wife won't pay?  How much are you on the hook for?

Have you discussed your options with an L?  I really thing you should know... KNOW your options before she gets her and before it gets to be last minute.

https://youtu.be/S74rvpc6W60

Yeah... .all of them... .seriously... .

Bad feeling...

FF

I am fortunate that my father recognized the dysfunction in my mother's fami!y, and he moved us 200 miles away to limit the daily exposure... .best thing he could have done.

Looking back, I can't imagine how difficult it would have been to deal with my uNPD/BPD step-grandmother on a daily basis. She was a Queen-Witch.

Well. that's scary.

I'm afraid I let the MIL thing go to far already.  she has her greencard and can legally come to the US any time now.

I am not too worried about it from my own perspective.  I figure if it really became unbearable, I could insist she move out and get her own place, or go back to her home country.  Or leave myself.  But my kids are going to be stuck in the  nightmare situation. 

my wife has explained her ideas here, and they're unrealistically rosy.  My MIL is apparently going to be a live-in maid and nanny for us, so we won't have to clean or worry about daycare.  and once she gets her drivers license also our kids' chauffeur.

Now, this would be all out of character for her mom, who admittedly worked hard as a nanny the last couple years.  but she's not going to take orders from my wife, her daughter, like she did from her employer.  I've already heard blurbs about how she expects her life will get "easier" once she's here. 

While I've told my wife I don't expect things will work out as well as she hopes, given her history of conflict with her mother, she's brushed away my concerns, and brings up my family, as though any resentment she has toward them justifies me having to suffer through her mom's tenure with us.  My family doesn't live with us though, nor do we have to help them and send them money.  and it's never even been a question.

since last July, we went through a relatively decent period, and I didn't address some of her plans as forcefully as I should have, as I didn't want to rock the boat so to speak when things were good.  now they're not going so well again, and I'm really concerned

Which is why you should find out... .vice be afraid. 

I really don't think (although I don't know) that you signed away your life here.  There has to be a way to say I rescind this.

Separate issue of if you actually rescind it.

It's obvious (to me anyway) that you wish you weren't in this situation.  Perhaps you wish you could have said no when it came up.

Many of us are (or were) afraid to say no to what our partners want.  What does that say?

What would have happened if you say no?

What happens if you say no now and rescind?

What happens if she gets here and you say no (go back... or whatever)?

Which of those three is "worse"?

FF

I am 99% sure there is no way to rescind my letter of support, based on information I've found online, but I'm going to reach out to a friend of mine who is an immigration attorney to confirm & provide some coloring of any issues I'm not thinking through.  

Today wife and I had our first "talk" since everything blew up last Friday night.  It started with her accusing me of "stonewalling" which is "a form of abuse" and only went downhill from there.  Ended with her screaming at me, and me yelling back that I want a divorce.  

I look at this two ways:

1) I love my kids (2 & 4).  I can't imagine not being able to see them every day.  I also love my wife, but my relationship with her is strained to the point of deep resentment right now.  And living with her is often a chore.  

I look at what nominally lead to this fight: that my mom sent us a card in which she used a picture of the 4 of us together (wife, kids, and I), that my wife had previously sent her, which instead of being a kind gesture (she took the time to make us a handmade card that said what a beautiful family and couple we were!), it was a "slap in the face" to show my wife that my mom "hates" her, and I'm being a "momma's boy" and a "sissy" by not seeing this my wife's way.  

Now, this by itself is a silly thing to fight over.  Sticks and stones... .

I could listen to her, tell her I see her point of view, and yes, my mom's a bad, manipulative witch who never got over her son marrying.  And hug her, and tell her I love her and nothing will ever come between us.

BUT... .

2) Been there, done that.  I'm sick of it.  This is no way to live, and my oldest son is now old enough to understand what's going on, and get confused and upset by it.  Plus, my wife has used this to keep my mom from visiting for us long periods of time, and also, at times claimed my mom was "abusive" and involved our kids in this by threatening never to allow her to see them.  We didn't see her for over a year last year, because everytime she asked about coming to see us, wife responded with a hostile email or comment, with a number of absurd conditions, and my mom backed off.  The last couple times we have seen her, it's been super awkward, because I spend the whole time waiting for the other shoe to drop... .wife to snap at my mom, mom to say something my wife takes as an insult, etc. wife telling me I should be standing near her, not my mom.  It's nuts.  And she's made it difficult for us to plan to see my family as much as I'd like to, more than once a year, if that, by whining about how we see them more often than her family (tho HER FAMIlLY lives in a different country, can't afford to visit us, and were all denied visas... .which of course was my fault, even though I had prepared the applications, and got our congresswoman to intervene on our behalf).  AAAH!

I resent her using my relationship with my mom (and also at times my grandma, aunt, and whatever other family member she's mad at) as a loyalty test to prove I'm committed to her.  I'm sick of loyalty tests period.  I resent her trying to ruin our kids' relationship with my family for the same selfish reasons.  

And I couple that with the fact that her mom is coming to live with us, and am struck by how unfair this whole situation is.  

all this has altered my behavior, and really made it hard to focus at work, leading to some bad relations with my boss.  I get more irritable at times, unhappy, and just generally stressed out.  it's also isolated me from other friends, in that she listens in on conversations and makes nasty comments (end result being I don't talk to friends on the phone anymore, and only with family during lunch at work), or gets upset if she sees me texting ("WHO ARE YOU TEXTING THAT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN SPENDING TIME WITH YOUR FAMILY?".

I'm tired of having to be the adult.  Of having to make excuses.  Of self-censoring.  These coping mechanisms (validating, no JADE, reassuring) work, but I just don't see the long term benefit.  And I just don't trust her.  

My MIL had/has her daughters in so much denial. My W's BIL moved back to his home country with wife and kids. I almost got sucked into living in the same town as well, but when the opportunity came we moved even further away.

My W's BIL's advice. It is only short term pain.

I just don't see how you could sign yourself into a "life sentence" with no recourse.

I mean... what if she shows up and does bad stuff, is there no way to force her to go back?

I know that bad laws get written... but... wow.

Shifting gears.  Why listen or have those "talks"?  Wouldn't you be better off in complete ignorant bliss?

Just a thought.

FF

it's not a life sentence.  It only applies for 10 years or something like that.  Still not great.  I understand the point of the law was to prevent people from bringing relatives to the US, then immediately collecting benefits for them, so that's why it's not revocable.  I guess if she does bad stuff (criminal bad stuff), she gets deported.  If she just made our lives miserable, we'd either get her a job as a live-in nanny for someone nearby, or give her money for a plane ticket back to her country and say "BYE"


believe me.  I was trying to avoid the talk last night.  I got home late from work, and she texted "tell me when you want to talk."  I didn't respond and was eating dinner when she came downstairs and made the "stonewalling" comment.  I responded I didn't like what she did last Friday (text bombing at work, then yelling at me as soon as I got in the door OR being forced to accept ultimatums about being a better son than a husband), which kept getting spun around into how she was just "expressing her feelings and concerns to [her] husband."  it pretty much went sideways from there.  and she kept screaming/yelling over me when I tried to talk.  That's when I finally yelled back I wanted a divorce.  

I guess, I have a week to move out.  I have an attorney from last time things really frayed.  I better start getting a plan together. 

Move out?  If she doesn't like you... why doesn't she move out?

The question for your attorney is how do you "force" the issue on the mother.

She comes over and refuses to do anything... no job or any of that, how do you undo it?  Perhaps you can't.

Knowing what you know now, would you have signed for the MIL?

Take some time to reflect, how could you have communicated differently so that your wife was heard, you were not stonewalling, yet you didn't "engage" the argument.  I get it, that's a tall order.  Perhaps sit that aside for a day or two... .work on it when you are ready.

FF

Pete, I have been at this point many many many times as well over the last seven point five years, and I can hear the desperation in your voice (post).

I understand that when you have had quite enough, and you are concerned (maybe), and the tools are not working anymore, then when the barbs and cross words just keep coming, .and you have reached your point of mental exhaustion, ie' the limit of your endurance... .then out it comes, the self inflicted extermination burst, .the broken arrow line as it were, .I WANT A DIVORCE !

But do we really mean that, or is it just an indicator that we have reached the end of our rope yet again, and there is not a even a single knot at the end of that ole' well worn rope to hold on any longer with... .like running out of air in the deep end of the pool, I MUST BREATH, so you say, or do whatever is necessary to kick your way back to the surface, and get a fresh gulp of life giving oxygen back into your lungs... .

And I too echo formflier, .why are you moving, .I say that because in my situation, I have no where to go, too many attachments (responsibilities), I can leave for only a very short amount of time to cool off, .hourly, or maybe a day or two in a hotel, but with my son, I must maintain the home base of operations, Sometime when she is really raging me, I will say, I PAY THE @&^$% mortgage, I ain't going nowhere, .so as you can see, I am going nowhere (fast) .

We are listening, hang in there Pete !

Red5

I hear you guys.  I just don't see the point of continuing on.

I don't want to go through weeks of fights and arguments just because my mom asks to come for a visit.  or my mom sends her a present or a card she doesn't like.  or she remembers something my mom did or said 3 years ago and decides she's not over it.  I'm tired of this.

I'm tired of being ambushed when I come home from work about - well it could be anything (money I spent on lunch that week, being home from work a 1/2 hour later than I said, her long commute) and screamed at in front of my kids.  

When our oldest son was 1 she went through an old box of pictures I had (100s of photos going back to my childhood) which I had forgotten included a couple pictures of me with an ex-GF.  they were over 10 years old at the time.  That resulted in a screaming fit, throwing the pictures in my face and storming off.  (our son sat there smiling at me, which sort of lessened the blow).  That situation repeated itself on other occasions (finding negatives of those pcitures I forgot about!  or her prowling my phone and deciding I didn't send enough pictures of her to my mom.  And a few months later when she went through my phone decided that when I did send pics of her to my mom, they weren't "good quality."  :)amned if you do, damned if you don't.

I'm tired of hearing "I feel disconnected from you" when we've just spent an hour talking about her day and I say I want to go read a book/watch TV before bed.

I'm tired of getting attacked/insulted as "cheap" "controlling" or "a bad provider" for not jumping when she says so, and immediately going along with whatever new thing she wants (a new $500 bike, a weekend trip, new furniture, etc.)

I'm tired of taking her out on a date once or twice a month (usually $100+ for dinner/movie/bar/concert + $80-$100 for a babysitter) only to have her direct the conversation over dinner into verbal minefields about my mom/family & how they treat her, or complain two weeks later about how "we never spend time as a couple"  or complain I didn't plan the date well enough.

I'm tired of going on family outings to the zoo, museum, kids playground, etc. only to get attacked for "never taking pictures" of her, standing too far away from her, looking at another woman, or checking my phone.  

I'm tired of getting attacked when I make a reasonable request - as gently as I can, I've learned - when asking her to stop leaving doors unlocked, or to remember to set the alarm when she leaves, or not to put pots in the bottom of the dishwasher because then nothing gets clean... .and hearing her classic response: "OH, I must be so annoying to you. I can't do anything right.  You probably want a divorce for this too, right?"

and if I get upset about any of this, 9 times out of 10, instead of an apology I get an argument that can escalate into silent treatment for days on end or worse.

What's the benefit of all this?  I endured it because of the kids.  It's taken a toll on my career.  and for sure my health, through stress and pressure.  and the more I read about it, the more I understand I'm not doing the kids any favors by staying in an abusive situation and showing them it's normal to put up with this.  

I don't want to hurt her.  but I just don't want to continue this.  all my instincts told me not to move forward when I proposed... .but I did it anyway.  Nothing has ever really changed.  but I had never heard about BPD until I reached out to people for advice after 3 years of this leaving me confused and wondering what was normal and what wasn't.

I think she's panicking because earlier today I got text bombed at work.  

Of course "she's sorry" and "she loves me" but those statements come with conditions... .I'm also partly responsible, I also cause problems, I also share blame, she doesn't understand why I'm so upset over this "one little thing."

last August when we nearly got divorced, she was conciliatory for a while, but by the next week already talking about how emotional I got and how she didn't even know how we got on the topic, and angrily denying she had played any role in it.  

Like the whole conversation about how my mom couldn't come for more than a Friday to Sunday (she'd have to fly 4 hours each way for and only have a day to spend with us/kids), wife would NOT take any time off for it, or pick her up at the airport (even though she works right there), I was "selfish" if I took Monday & Friday off to spend time with my mom, and my wife wouldn't let my mom stay with our kids alone, alleging she'd abuse them... .THAT whole conversation, and all the threats and screaming at me that came with it... .never happened.

And this came after she blocked my mom from visiting once earlier in the year by throwing a fit and sending nasty emails out to her detailing the "conditions" she was allowed to visit under.  

By September the whole thing was just me overreacting to an argument that we had.  

I expect the same outcome again.

once I calm down, then passive aggressive behavior will start again, the snide remarks, attacks, etc.  then the full blown dysregulations when she gets "triggered" and decides it's okay to rage at me again because my mom didn't reply to her text, or I said I didn't want to do XYZ that Saturday, or I didn't listen to something she said, or she feels "unloved" etc.

I hear you Pete,

I am the same boat as you where my own FOO mother is concerned, reading your last post is almost like a blow by blow as to what I have experienced over the past year with my u/BPDw... .and my mums attempted visits.

This year, I too was brought right to the brink of opening my secret orders, and reading and executing the ":)" procedures.

... .recycle, reload, rinse & repeat, it never ends.

At the moment, things are tenuous due my (w) going after my son's (S31 special needs) mentor, it is the strangest thing, I have seen her go after underlings at her work over the years, when she was working, and as well her own FOO mother, or even her own daughter (w is my second wife) but this is a new twist.

I am leaving from work here in just a few minutes, and I dread what will transpire when I get home.

The mentor is onto the behaviors, and is questioning me as to what is "wrong" as our vehicles pass up the road from the house as I make my way home, this has been developing over the past few weeks.

My (w) even told me last night that she indeed does not like the mentor, .ugh 

Last evening, mentor actually broke down in tears while sitting there in her car on the street just up from our home.

I may have to make a new post about this, as I really do not know how to handle this new twist; behaviors.

Anyways; keep posting Pete, we are listening, and know you are not alone,

Hang in there Brother !

Red5

Pete,

I'm sorry for the drama around your mother's visits.  Your latest reply sounded similar to what I've experienced at times.

What do you do about your mother's visits when she tries to impose conditions?  How long would you like for your mother to visit?  How long would she like to visit?

WW

Good morning Pete!

Hope all is well with you this fine morning,

I had some more to share about MIL, and Mum visits,

Mum (my Foo) did not visit at all this year, (w) managed to sabotage all attempts. I have to be honest here, my Mum is also a bit of a mess, another very long story that I won't go into here, anyways; that said, she is my Mum, and I do love her, and after years... .no sir; decades, yes decades, I have come to have her pretty well “pinged”… and have been able to untangle myself from impending FOO family drama (drama triangles, squares, hexagons etc’). This FOO history goes well beyond (history) before me and U/BPDw even met, way back into my first marriage…

Usually, after much belly aching, dysregulating, and dread by (w), laying down the law, as in we won’t let her do this, that, and the other… when Mum does show up, its nothing to do about nothing, I of course am always on high alert, day to day, hour to hour (exhausting)… and I manage to keep down/and intercept any impending confrontations, although there are dust ups here and there, I learn as I go, and as I said, Mum is also a “mess”, so to have two (2) of the same type model series in such close quarters, is quite a challenge to (keep) subdue, and disarm. I did say that Mum is also a “mess”, and that said, u/BPDw, and Mums drama conspired together along many facets, thus resultant in no visit this past year, as many factors were in play, so rewind, recycle, rinse and repeat, it’s a “new year” !

Mum lives down south, about three states away, so her visits may last about a week to ten daze.  She would stay for weeks, maybe as long as 1.5 of a month if I let her, she is semi-retired, and not married, she is in her late seventies now. My FOO ½ sis pretty much lives off of her (Mum) back home, along with her two sons, and their stepdad, my ½ sis’s husband, another long story, so it is a rare for Mum to be able to break away from all that delicious family drama to come north to see us.

Epilogue: As stated; Mum is a hot mess handful, her call sign given to her by the FOO was “sassey”, took me decades to understand why, another very long story, u/BPDw thought Mum was g-r-e-a-t when we were dating, at “sweet old lady”, harmless, nice, thoughtful, loving… I warned her (w)… but it took a couple of years for her to see (through her BPD sun shaded eye glasses ). There is a very long list of things, some validated, some not that my (w) does not like about my FOO Mum, but to make a long story short, I do dread Mum’s impending visits, quite sad to be honest… but I am fifty plus now myself, and I have no tolerance for family drama outside of what I deal with in my own home. When Mum does come onboard, it is quite tenuous, stressful, and NOT enjoyable at all for me, how could it (?)… but I suck it up, and manage to get through, as my own grown adult children who live in our local area up here do love their grandmother, and I won’t stand in the way of that, no I won’t… interestingly u/BPDw has pushed her own FOO Mom beyond her “circle of trust” now as well(?).

One more thing, to throw in for good measure, Mum never married my biological father, never even met him till I was sixteen, my grandparents adopted me at birth, and practically raised me, and this is where I was taught my values system, not from Mum… so factor all that into the stew as well… yes, a mess.

P.S. At this stage in the game, we are well beyond the half way point of our lives, and I do know that none of this dynamics of the family is ever going to change, it is what it is, that’s it, end of story, all that’s left to do now is preserver until the end, which is most likely about another ten to fifteen years. Then I will find peace…

Hang in there Pete !

Red5

thanks, all.

Well yesterday wife came and apologized profusely, said she was sorry, admitted she had a problem and doesn't deal well.  said she knows I'm a good husband and father and doesn't want to "lose me."

a few times she tried to say "you need to work on yourself too." but I told her in no uncertain terms I was sick of her doing X and saying Y, and I wasn't going to tolerate it anymore.

She took surprisingly well, and said she agreed with me, that she can see how started it & escalated it and understood it was wrong.  we'll see how long the peace lasts.  

I made a mental note to myself that I can't get comfortable... .have to keep my powder dry.  I'm learning that sometimes you have to fight to enforce a boundary.

Pete,

I know it's tempting to try to keep your head down and enjoy calm times, but calm times are the best times to make some relationship progress.  One caution, though, is not to make the mistake that I sometimes did -- as soon as I felt safe, I sometimes felt the urge to unload all of the hurts I'd accumulated during the past dysregulation.  Guess how well that worked for me?  :)  But careful work with SET, DEARMAN, etc. is good to do in calm times.

WW

Wentworth wrote:

I know it's tempting to try to keep your head down and enjoy calm times, but calm times are the best times to make some relationship progress.  One caution, though, is not to make the mistake that I sometimes did -- as soon as I felt safe, I sometimes felt the urge to unload all of the hurts I'd accumulated during the past dysregulation.

I can absolutely concur with this, & very good advice !... .be careful Pete... .

We all learn as we go !

Red5

Pete, this is like reading a story of my own life.  I have/still gone through all of these. There is no "win".  Ever.  I don't get verbal apologies, it usually comes in the form of her buying my favorite candy or buying something from the bakery and trying to engage me in conversation about her work (any topic about the family leads to fighting).

My mother came to the house one day (against my warnings) to try and "reason" with my wife over lawyers, threats and PA.  Wife ended up screaming at my mom and was trying to call the cops on her to get her off of "her" property (all in front of D11).  Been a rough road since.

I think yesterday she realized how close the D is from happening on my end and she has in her words "reached out again" but because I didn't engage its now being thrown in my face that I'm incapable of reciprocity and she'll never try again... .remember that roller coaster?
I'm not getting back on.  Do your best and hold the boundaries if you can.

I'm still not sure if my career is on track and am pretty lucky to still be employed at this point.  I've lost almost 20 pounds due to stress and up until now I've never had anxiety problems in my life... .  Its just not good.

good luck
-Oz

Which is exactly why I "shifted" from saying "avoiding invalidation" was my number 1 tool to "boundaries" being my number 1 tool.


Much better to avoid accumulating hurts in the first place, than to figure out a way to deal with them later.

Once they realize they can no longer "offload" their stuff... perhaps... .just perhaps they will make better choices.  As long as they can "give their emotional stuff away", there is no incentive to change.

FF

Absolutely.  I wish I'd figured this out years ago.  I think my lack of boundaries has been my #1 contribution to our misery.

WW

Well, as I expected, despite a series of apologies and admissions last week, she keeps trying to bring my mom up (in extremely roundabout ways) and making snide remarks about the situation, my mom, me, etc.

and also now, I'M unstable and reckless for "constantly bringing up divorce" ... .

on one hand I just can't understand it: if my spouse told me, "Hey, I'm happy, I don't want to leave you, but you keep doing XYZ, and I just can't and won't keep tolerating it."  AND I ADMITTED  "Yes, I know I keep doing it, and it's wrong and I can't control myself" ... .I would sure not go out of my way to steer every conversation to the topic of XYZ.

Now for the third time today she brought up troubled parent/in law situations she's heard about and of course made snide comments about how she "understands their feelings" or worse, started making pointed complaints about me.  day started out with me immediately recognizing the "choppy waters" building in intensity.  I have no idea what is going on in her head.

on the OTHER HAND, I can understand it because I'm dealing with a defective adult, who can't control her feelings and emotions, thinks in absolutes, and throws even bigger tantrums than my 2 and 4 year old do as soon as she hears the word "No."

so. want. out. aaaah.

So... .since the apologies and admissions didn't help... .how does that inform future strategy?

Is it possible the apologies and admissions acted as "fuel for the fire"? 

FF

Strategy?  honestly, I'm so full of resentment toward her for all the accusations, tantrums, name-calling, ambushes over the years that the only thing I can think of is to keep a short fuse and simply blow up and fight back as soon as this nonsense starts.  if not, I'll find myself running after her and apologizing while she screams at me and levels all sorts of accusations depending on what I didn't do right for her in that moment: I'm lazy, I'm not loving, I'm cheap, I'm selfish, etc.

Where I'm at right now: I read these coping mechanisms, no JADEing, setting boundaries, validating feelings, etc.  and I get upset... .it's such a one-way street.  I honestly don't see the point anymore.  it's like choosing to tip-toe through a minefield when there's a perfectly good sidewalk next to it (ie not being married to a high-conflict PWBPD).

this maybe stems from my upbringing... .?  not that it was perfect, but in my family, there wasn't a lot of patience for screw-ups.  you make a mistake, fine, go and fix it.  but if you keep presenting problems for everyone else, making it all about you, throwing tantrums, etc. you were going to find yourself ridiculed (gently at first) and ostracized by everyone else until you got your act together.  it never seemed harsh to me, because there was always plenty of love and praise when one succeeded. it seemed fair, if anything.  it was kind of like a team effort: you were part of the team, and you pulled your weight.  if you wouldn't do that, why be on the team?  

But I see that attitude doesn't work with people who thrive off conflict and drama.  they immediately react with surprising hostility to (what I consider) even the most mild criticism, sarcasm, of joking.  

when this would happen to us, even before we got married, my usual reaction was shock, and then scrambling to explain myself and reassure her.  The resentment to the unfairness of it all started growing, and as her behavior has continued unabated, my resentment never stopped growing either.

FF challenge:  Pete... .go do reading on boundaries on BPD family.    tonight.

Come up with a strategy or boundary idea to cut out 1/3 of the crap she is tossing at you.

Let's discuss that idea and make a way forward.

Boundaries are my number 1 tool.  Much better than validation, dearman and other things.

Thoughts?

FF

My wife immigrated to this country at 18 with her mom and brother. Most of the family still lives in Colombia.

Even though I gave her relationship with her mother a ton of latitude, my wife never extended me the same courtesy and found ways to pit me against family members, looking for me to chose her over them.

I understand how exhausting it can be to be with someone who invents/imagines issues that defy logic and common sense all in an effort to poison the marriage.

Before we finally separated it was literally getting to the point where I was going to have to move across the country with her so she wouldn’t have to see or deal with my family. Laughable.

I’ve since been replaced with someone who has no family nearby. Music to her ears.

FF: been reading the boundaries section and some early posts on the topic.  

I'll type out my thoughts later tonight.  Normally that wouldn't be possible, since I try to only access this site through incognito mode on my phone.  I don't get enough privacy to sit and type on my laptop, except when we're not on speaking terms, after a big flare up. like tonight.

Turban: yeah, that's kinda how it is.  my wife is an immigrant as well.  in her case, she came by herself, and frequently uses her "isolation" (even though she emails & skype chats with her parents far more than I do) as an excuse for her emotional swings, but I suspect it won't be any different when her mom gets here.  

it's not just my mom she has issues with; wife has also picked fights and blown up at pretty much every woman on my mom's side of the family.  my parents are divorced, and my dad's side of the family pretty much consists of only my dad, his longtime GF, and my uncle.

in any event, we rarely see either side of my family so wife is really picking fights and making my life miserable over 1/2 visits a year + whatever happens during a holiday (she doesn't like her xmas present, my didn't call, mom called too late, mom said something she didn't like, etc.)

I use a chromebook, with a really strong password that only I know.  Even then, I use incognito mode as well.

Make sure any time you will be away at all you "lock" the device behind you.

FF

so as I read through the boundaries section on this site & some related threads, a couple things.  

First, the steps:
1) Define values - mine are: fairness, respecting myself, and being a good father, husband, son, brother, employee, and person.
2) Assert Boundaries - easier said than done, as discussed below.
3) Honor and defend them - ditto

What I'm willing to work on/compromise, and what I'm not willing to compromise:  
Well, I'm not willing to compromise on fairness, honesty, and trust with my family & friends, yet I've done so many times in futile attempts to preserve the peace.  I've even gone against my gut instinct on many of these, knowing my wife was being insincere in here complaints, addressing them, only to witness her ignore the same sort of behavior from others, and quickly find something else to bash me over.    

I'm willing to admit I'm not perfect.  I understand that I make mistakes, and I can be a little tone deaf and callous sometimes.  I've spent countless hours listening to my wife's complaints though.  It really is excessive when I start to think about how much of our non-work time I spend talking to her (i.e. listening to her day, or who upset her, or her complaints about something I need to do better, or something we need to buy).  she will not extend the same courtesy to me.  

As far as enforcing boundaries: The only somewhat successful tactic I've employed is simply telling her I'm not going to listen to this, and that I'm going for a walk until "things calm down" or "she calms down."  At other times, the dysregulation gets so twisted and escalates so quickly, that there's really no reason to Listen/understand/validate.  It's out of control. 

And when I'm not in a situation where I can just leave, I really have no way of enforcing boundaries (no fighting in front of the kids, no personal insults, no insulting my family), like today when we're out driving with family.  Or on a family vacation (we've had some insane fights erupt when we take trips).  I can't say "Stop talking we're done here"... .and ditch my family to take a cab home.  And she has no regard for screaming at me in front of the kids, in the car.  I can't just change the subject, she catches on to that.  

and regardless... .

I saw two comments in a post about boundaries that seem germaine here:

1) Knowing boundaries and continuing to violate them is a lack of respect.
2) Boundaries are crossed as a means of control.

And the corollary to these in another post:

Knowing when to walk away is key to respecting yourself.  

I get that it's never going to stop, because while some of her attacks, rages, etc. are simply over her inability to control her emotions at that moment.  Others are about control: intentionally attacking me, making demands to force me to submit to whatever twisted idea she decides I need to do to "prove" I'm "on her side" or that I'm "truly committed" to her.

in the former case, for example you have episodes like the time she we went on a family trip, and she forgot to bring a coat, and it was chilly.  I was an idiot for not telling her she needed on, too stupid to read the weather report, cheap, etc. etc., and she couldn't rely on me, started sobbing hysterically in front of the kids.  Yet I calmed her down, and we stopped at the mall and got her a coat.  We ended happy... .I didn't like the things she said, but I could deal with that, knowing she struggles to admit guilt, and struggles to cope with negative emotions, like knowing how stupid it was not to bring a coat.  It makes me feel lousy and disappointed thinking I have more of a 3rd kid than a partner, but whatever.  

... .but in the latter case, I have a harder time, because when is it going to end?  When can I demonstrate "enough" commitment for her to be happy?  It's been 5 years of marriage... .two kids... .two houses... . new car, thousands of dollars in immigration fees, dozens of hours of labor to fill out and file her immigration documents, doing the same for her mom now, dates, gifts, days of "listening," Helping her through two failed attempts to pass the exams to get her professional licensing, Taking the kids for half the summer weekends another time so she could study to pass another, telling her I respected her and she could stay home or go back to work whenever, yet still finding ways to blame me for (alternatively: having to go back to work, or taking time off to stay with newborn kids), and sticking by her through all this crap, and not divorcing her years ago.

None of that proves committment... .she's always going to need more.  And using my own relationship with my mom to demand I cut contact, renounce my mom, call her and yell at her for "disrespecting my wife" by sending her a gift she felt was cheap... .and alternatively threatening that she won't see her, let her see our kids, etc.  This is beyond the pale.  

it might be helpful to provide an instance that I've struggled with, in terms of enforcing boundaries:

situation: it's a day after a big fight, we've made up, and said our apologies.  she'll wait til things calm down, then the subtle insults and digs start.

We're putting the boys to bed.  it's my turn to read to them.  I'm picking a book w/oldest when youngest runs out of the room to hug his mom goodnight.  she brings him back in the room and makes a comment with a big smirk on her face like "Sorry [son] it's papa's turn to read.  We already have one mama's boy in this family. we don't need another"

what to do?  i'm immediately ready to fight, defend myself, and I'm upset being reminded that she's so selfish she'd pick such an inappropriate time to grind the axe, but I'm sitting there trying to be calm... .it's bed time... .if I do ANYTHING to defend myself, she's going to escalate it, and now we're loudly arguing instead of getting the kids ready for bed.

I'd normally just ignore it, and move on.  who really cares, right?  important thing is I have my family.  but when she makes comments like that, she's in attack mode.  it's not going to stop there, she'll just wait for the next opportunity, which will come soon enough, since she can relate any minor incident whatsoever to her issues... .no logical leap is too broad.

And I don't want my kids seeing me sit there and take this... .maybe they're a bit too young to understand it, but my oldest is very curious and asks a lot of questions.  What kind of message does this send to him?

You do have a way... .a choice has been made to value the vacation and the "illusion" of a together family over YOUR boundary and YOUR values.  She understands this and violates your boundary.  Because really... .a property line that you are now willing to defend is not a property line.


1.  If you are already in the car.  Pull over, take the keys and walk away.  My favorite is to pull into a McDonalds take the keys and walk inside.  Forcing my wife to either throw a fit in public (which she doesn't like to do) or find a way to calm herself, come inside and talk. 

And yes... .if I get back in and she starts belittling me for boundary enforcement... .wash rinse repeat on pulling over and walking away.

2.  Many times we drive separately.  I rarely... .rarely ride with her where she is driving. 

Honestly the car thing hasn't been an issue for over a year.  I credit my boundary enforcement.

The last one I can remember was me driving and she started yammering on about my faults.  We were driving to a date so the "fact" of a date night was likely invalidating to her feelings that I was an ogre.

I succinctly let her know we could talk a later about her concerns or I would go on date alone.  I ended up taking her home and went and enjoyed a dinner by myself.

And... I brought some leftovers home to her... .

FF

No reason at all to respond in any way to that.  She knows it's a button... .she likes to push it.  Disconnect the button on your end.  Or decide not to put kids to bed with her and live somewhere else. 

The middle ground of sometimes responding and sometimes not is really worse for everyone.

What happens if you stand in the middle of the road?  What happens if you pick a side of the road and stand over there?

FF

Right... so STOP shoveling and trying to fill up a black hole.

Is there ANY reason to keep expending energy trying to fill up that hole?  

I'm serious... . You have a finite amount of energy.  Spend it wisely.  

Take the Mom situation.  I can either show my wife that I won't be controlled and that family matters to me.

or I  can keep trying to fill up a bottomless pit.  Perhaps just one more shovel will do.

Note:  There is nothing in boundaries (that I am aware of) where there is enforcement and the other party is "happy" or "ok" with it.

Let their emotions be whatever they will be.  YOU uphold YOUR values... .without apology.

Can you make a commitment to stop apologizing to your wife or perhaps come here and post first, to make sure it is something you should apologize for.  

FF

I stopped apologizing.

after our last fight, when I left the house, during the "make up" talk, she tried to tell me I said hurtful things too, and asked me to apologize.  I pointedly told her no, I wouldn't be doing that, and anything I said was in direct response to her insults and if she wanted to, she could go back and read over the texts. 

I expected worse, but she didn't make a big deal about it at the time.  I'm learning to simply ignore her words... .apologize or not, I'd be in the same boat later. 

yesterday, despite spending more or less the whole day together as she wanted, the pin-prick MIL comments or other digs continued, like pointing to a family walking together, & saying "There's a dad who doesn't complain about having to spend time with his family."  I hadn't done that of course & was at that cery moment in a good mood and spending time with my family.  but it continued... .around 5 pm, I finally had enough, seeing it as a pattern at that point, and not just her getting up on the wrong side of the bed.

we didn't talk the rest of the way home, and then when we got in the door she started putting it all on me, acting surprised when I referenced the repeated slights and trying to play dumb... ."so if I stop telling you stories about my friends' MILs, you won't be upset with me? That's what all this is about?"

I told her I was done hearing about any of it, because I just didn't believe her anymore.  she said something like "You act like our marriage is in a bad place" and I told her I view that as true (i can't remember the exact words), and she went off sobbing.

our kids were napping in the car during this exchange.  I wouldn't have said any of that around them.

if/when I ignore these comments, they just continue.

I didn't mention it in this thread, but when the nastiness from her goes on and on, I think of what I know about my own in-laws. 

by all accounts, they had a stormy marriage characterized by mutual infidelity, and abuse - both physical and mental.  my in-laws have been legally divorced for more than a decade (I think, I can never get a straight answer) and physically separated for going on 4 years now.  my FIL moved out and never came back in 2014 (but still asks everyone for money)

I don't speak their language, but when we visited, I could tell when nastiness was going on between them because everyone else would get quiet.  when my wife has told me what they say to eachother, it kinda blows my mind how nasty it all is, like the "bitter husband and wife stock characters" from a 1950's or 60's sitcom: constantly bickering, no filter whatsoever, no concern for the other's feelings. 

given that is what she grew up with, I do wonder how much she views fighting as "normal" and even a sign of concern and affection(?) in a twisted way?  like he/she wouldn't scream at the other and tell them they hate them, they're worthless, an idiot who ruined their life, etc... .if they didn't REALLY love them. 

and so this is what she expects our marriage should be like.  and if it's not, if I quietly ignore the slights, abuse, insults, etc. she'll just keep at it until she gets a reaction.

that's why when I don't respond the way she wants, she has no problem "going there" and immediately escalating a discussion over where to go for a date, whether or not to buy XYZ, or something someone said into a full-blown shouting match.

So... .you aren't really ignoring them, that is why they continue.

This is the little "game" or whatever that she likes to play.  If you stop playing, it will eventually die out.  Or if you significantly change the rules.

Perhaps if you just stopped listening to digs at all.  If you must address them, do it in the moment... with your feet.

"blah blah blah... .there is a guy that loves his family, doesn't complain, and has a nice but... .firm a succulent... .wouldn't I love to chew off some of that a$$... ."  (and of course you would be thinking... .well... .I'd have a nice one if you didn't nibble on it so much... )

"ouch... .I'm not going to go for a walk and listen to veiled insults.  We can talk about something else or I'll walk alone.  Which would you prefer?"

If she doesn't answer or keeps digging the veiled insult thing... .walk away.  Do NOT debate whether or not it is or was a veiled insult. 

Thoughts?

FF

So... .either you nip it in the bud... in the moment.  Or you ignore it.  Forever.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=63989.0

Really need to understand why she keeps trying.

FF

I guess I should clarify: I try and fail to ignore them.

eventually they get to me.

I think you're right though: it will take a different approach here.  I'll have to stay on my toes... .no relaxing when I'm around her really because she can and will cross the boundaries at any time or place, with no regard for the consequences. 

Right!  You've got it.

So... .I want you to relax twice as much this coming month as last month.

Self care is critical.

What are the implications for you taking better care of yourself?



FF

taking better care of myself: well, for one thing the wife won't like it. 

this is because me taking better care of myself = spending less time with her. 

Less time sitting around and listening to her for hours each night.  instead, going to the gym, or doing something I like.  I'm at that point that I don't care anymore... .If it ends, fine.  I'm going for broke at this point.  if she wants to escalate further, I have my attorney's number memorized and I'm ready to get a hotel room and file. 

I'm not going to be confrontational or aggressive, but I am not tolerating any more negativity from her... .none.

You have graduated... .!   |iiii     Now go forth and conquer.

The place where you will need to learn some nuance is when letting her know.  It will take some trial and error.

Succinct  is critical.  Very focused.  Don't let her get lost in lots of words. 

"This conversation isn't working for me.  We can discuss something else or I'll go to the gym.  "

Note:  This isn't when she is full on flipped out... .this is way before that. 

Thoughts?

FF

Pete,

I'm catching up here.  formflier's given you a lot of good advice.  One of my personal favorites, because it took me so long to learn, is:


I was like, "Really?"  I thought I should negotiate boundaries and get my wife to agree to them.  I screwed that up for decades!

OK, many years ago (right around the time I started screwing up boundaries with my wife  ) I took a college psychology course.  One of the things they covered was "operant conditioning," where you train an animal or person to do something with rewards.  "Extinguishment" is when the behavior goes away.  If you give a reward every time the behavior happens, then suddenly stop, the behavior extinguishes fairly quickly.  If you give a reward only part of the time, the person doesn't expect the reward every time, so the behavior becomes VERY hard to extinguish.  Especially if you keep giving intermittent reinforcement.  So if you keep your cool 90% of the time, and only lose it 10% of the time when your wife tries really hard, guess what she'll do?  You got it, try very hard.  Over the course of a marriage, you can get in pretty deep!  You need to get really good at not giving a response.  And since pwBPD are so attuned to small signs of emotion or distress in us, that's a pretty tall order.

It was hard to plan an evening with my wife.  It seemed like I was always orbiting near her trying to figure out what she wanted.  So much of my time got wasted waiting around to connect with her.  Yes!  Go to the gym!  Plan some time with her later that night, or the next day -- don't just be a jerk and head to the gym, let her know when you can spend time together and that you're looking forward to it, but don't sacrifice self care thinking you'll make her happy by neglecting yourself.  And if you do that self care, you may feel less resentment and have more energy to work the BPD tools with her.

I have never seen the tools here do harm.  I've never been worse off for using them.  I can't always get the results I want with them, but they have never been a waste of time.  Even when things are grim, I'd rather be trying with the tools than blowing my stack, lashing out, or withdrawing.  I've tried those three things and more, and the results are always worse.

One more thought as you're weighing how much to invest in practicing the tools.  Even if you do get divorced, you are going to have a relationship with your wife for a very long time, possibly forever, since you have kids together.  And you've got a long road to go before your kids launch.  So becoming a BPD tool ninja is a good investment, regardless of which path you take in the future.

WW

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