continuing issues b/t spouse and mother

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Which is exactly why I "shifted" from saying "avoiding invalidation" was my number 1 tool to "boundaries" being my number 1 tool.

Much better to avoid accumulating hurts in the first place, than to figure out a way to deal with them later.

Absolutely.  I wish I'd figured this out years ago.  I think my lack of boundaries has been my #1 contribution to our misery.

WW

[Radcliff]

Which is exactly why I "shifted" from saying "avoiding invalidation" was my number 1 tool to "boundaries" being my number 1 tool.

Much better to avoid accumulating hurts in the first place, than to figure out a way to deal with them later.

Absolutely.  I wish I'd figured this out years ago.  I think my lack of boundaries has been my #1 contribution to our misery.

WW

[PeteWitsend]

Well, as I expected, despite a series of apologies and admissions last week, she keeps trying to bring my mom up (in extremely roundabout ways) and making snide remarks about the situation, my mom, me, etc.

and also now, I'M unstable and reckless for "constantly bringing up divorce" ... .

on one hand I just can't understand it: if my spouse told me, "Hey, I'm happy, I don't want to leave you, but you keep doing XYZ, and I just can't and won't keep tolerating it."  AND I ADMITTED  "Yes, I know I keep doing it, and it's wrong and I can't control myself" ... .I would sure not go out of my way to steer every conversation to the topic of XYZ.

Now for the third time today she brought up troubled parent/in law situations she's heard about and of course made snide comments about how she "understands their feelings" or worse, started making pointed complaints about me.  day started out with me immediately recognizing the "choppy waters" building in intensity.  I have no idea what is going on in her head.

on the OTHER HAND, I can understand it because I'm dealing with a defective adult, who can't control her feelings and emotions, thinks in absolutes, and throws even bigger tantrums than my 2 and 4 year old do as soon as she hears the word "No."

so. want. out. aaaah.

[formflier]

Well, as I expected, despite a series of apologies and admissions last week, she keeps trying to bring my mom up (in extremely roundabout ways) and making snide remarks about the situation, my mom, me, etc.
 

So... .since the apologies and admissions didn't help... .how does that inform future strategy?

Is it possible the apologies and admissions acted as "fuel for the fire"? 

FF

[PeteWitsend]

So... .since the apologies and admissions didn't help... .how does that inform future strategy?

Is it possible the apologies and admissions acted as "fuel for the fire"?  

FF

Strategy?  honestly, I'm so full of resentment toward her for all the accusations, tantrums, name-calling, ambushes over the years that the only thing I can think of is to keep a short fuse and simply blow up and fight back as soon as this nonsense starts.  if not, I'll find myself running after her and apologizing while she screams at me and levels all sorts of accusations depending on what I didn't do right for her in that moment: I'm lazy, I'm not loving, I'm cheap, I'm selfish, etc.

Where I'm at right now: I read these coping mechanisms, no JADEing, setting boundaries, validating feelings, etc.  and I get upset... .it's such a one-way street.  I honestly don't see the point anymore.  it's like choosing to tip-toe through a minefield when there's a perfectly good sidewalk next to it (ie not being married to a high-conflict PWBPD).

this maybe stems from my upbringing... .?  not that it was perfect, but in my family, there wasn't a lot of patience for screw-ups.  you make a mistake, fine, go and fix it.  but if you keep presenting problems for everyone else, making it all about you, throwing tantrums, etc. you were going to find yourself ridiculed (gently at first) and ostracized by everyone else until you got your act together.  it never seemed harsh to me, because there was always plenty of love and praise when one succeeded. it seemed fair, if anything.  it was kind of like a team effort: you were part of the team, and you pulled your weight.  if you wouldn't do that, why be on the team?  

But I see that attitude doesn't work with people who thrive off conflict and drama.  they immediately react with surprising hostility to (what I consider) even the most mild criticism, sarcasm, of joking.  

when this would happen to us, even before we got married, my usual reaction was shock, and then scrambling to explain myself and reassure her.  The resentment to the unfairness of it all started growing, and as her behavior has continued unabated, my resentment never stopped growing either.

[formflier]

FF challenge:  Pete... .go do reading on boundaries on BPD family.    tonight.

Come up with a strategy or boundary idea to cut out 1/3 of the crap she is tossing at you.

Let's discuss that idea and make a way forward.

Boundaries are my number 1 tool.  Much better than validation, dearman and other things.

Thoughts?

FF

[TurbanCowboy]

So uBPDw and I just had our anniversary.  it more or less went well. 

next day we rec'd a card from my mom congratulating us.  she made it herself, and on the inside of the card included a picture of us and our kids, along with a comment that a beautiful marriage created a beautiful family.

wife didn't like this because apparently my mom only sent us that picture because she didn't want a picture of us happy together in her house because she "hates" my wife.

at work, i suddenly got text bombed about it.  I didn't take the bait, and just responded with a pic of my to-do list to show I was busy and working hard.

when I got home, wife was super bouncy and aggressive, like she gets when she knows she got to me.  she immediately brought up the card and how horrible my mom is, etc. and how if that upset me, I needed to decide whether I wanted to be a husband or a son... .

I said bye to my kids and walked out.  came home much later.

I'm so sick of this roller coaster... .I want off. 

My wife immigrated to this country at 18 with her mom and brother. Most of the family still lives in Colombia.

Even though I gave her relationship with her mother a ton of latitude, my wife never extended me the same courtesy and found ways to pit me against family members, looking for me to chose her over them.

I understand how exhausting it can be to be with someone who invents/imagines issues that defy logic and common sense all in an effort to poison the marriage.

Before we finally separated it was literally getting to the point where I was going to have to move across the country with her so she wouldn’t have to see or deal with my family. Laughable.

I’ve since been replaced with someone who has no family nearby. Music to her ears.

[PeteWitsend]

FF: been reading the boundaries section and some early posts on the topic.  

I'll type out my thoughts later tonight.  Normally that wouldn't be possible, since I try to only access this site through incognito mode on my phone.  I don't get enough privacy to sit and type on my laptop, except when we're not on speaking terms, after a big flare up. like tonight.

Turban: yeah, that's kinda how it is.  my wife is an immigrant as well.  in her case, she came by herself, and frequently uses her "isolation" (even though she emails & skype chats with her parents far more than I do) as an excuse for her emotional swings, but I suspect it won't be any different when her mom gets here.  

it's not just my mom she has issues with; wife has also picked fights and blown up at pretty much every woman on my mom's side of the family.  my parents are divorced, and my dad's side of the family pretty much consists of only my dad, his longtime GF, and my uncle.

in any event, we rarely see either side of my family so wife is really picking fights and making my life miserable over 1/2 visits a year + whatever happens during a holiday (she doesn't like her xmas present, my didn't call, mom called too late, mom said something she didn't like, etc.)

[formflier]

I use a chromebook, with a really strong password that only I know.  Even then, I use incognito mode as well.

Make sure any time you will be away at all you "lock" the device behind you.

FF

[PeteWitsend]

FF challenge:  Pete... .go do reading on boundaries on BPD family.    tonight.

Come up with a strategy or boundary idea to cut out 1/3 of the crap she is tossing at you.

Let's discuss that idea and make a way forward.

Boundaries are my number 1 tool.  Much better than validation, dearman and other things.

Thoughts?

FF

so as I read through the boundaries section on this site & some related threads, a couple things.  

First, the steps:
1) Define values - mine are: fairness, respecting myself, and being a good father, husband, son, brother, employee, and person.
2) Assert Boundaries - easier said than done, as discussed below.
3) Honor and defend them - ditto

What I'm willing to work on/compromise, and what I'm not willing to compromise:  
Well, I'm not willing to compromise on fairness, honesty, and trust with my family & friends, yet I've done so many times in futile attempts to preserve the peace.  I've even gone against my gut instinct on many of these, knowing my wife was being insincere in here complaints, addressing them, only to witness her ignore the same sort of behavior from others, and quickly find something else to bash me over.    

I'm willing to admit I'm not perfect.  I understand that I make mistakes, and I can be a little tone deaf and callous sometimes.  I've spent countless hours listening to my wife's complaints though.  It really is excessive when I start to think about how much of our non-work time I spend talking to her (i.e. listening to her day, or who upset her, or her complaints about something I need to do better, or something we need to buy).  she will not extend the same courtesy to me.  

As far as enforcing boundaries: The only somewhat successful tactic I've employed is simply telling her I'm not going to listen to this, and that I'm going for a walk until "things calm down" or "she calms down."  At other times, the dysregulation gets so twisted and escalates so quickly, that there's really no reason to Listen/understand/validate.  It's out of control. 

And when I'm not in a situation where I can just leave, I really have no way of enforcing boundaries (no fighting in front of the kids, no personal insults, no insulting my family), like today when we're out driving with family.  Or on a family vacation (we've had some insane fights erupt when we take trips).  I can't say "Stop talking we're done here"... .and ditch my family to take a cab home.  And she has no regard for screaming at me in front of the kids, in the car.  I can't just change the subject, she catches on to that.  

and regardless... .

I saw two comments in a post about boundaries that seem germaine here:

1) Knowing boundaries and continuing to violate them is a lack of respect.
2) Boundaries are crossed as a means of control.

And the corollary to these in another post:

Knowing when to walk away is key to respecting yourself.  

I get that it's never going to stop, because while some of her attacks, rages, etc. are simply over her inability to control her emotions at that moment.  Others are about control: intentionally attacking me, making demands to force me to submit to whatever twisted idea she decides I need to do to "prove" I'm "on her side" or that I'm "truly committed" to her.

in the former case, for example you have episodes like the time she we went on a family trip, and she forgot to bring a coat, and it was chilly.  I was an idiot for not telling her she needed on, too stupid to read the weather report, cheap, etc. etc., and she couldn't rely on me, started sobbing hysterically in front of the kids.  Yet I calmed her down, and we stopped at the mall and got her a coat.  We ended happy... .I didn't like the things she said, but I could deal with that, knowing she struggles to admit guilt, and struggles to cope with negative emotions, like knowing how stupid it was not to bring a coat.  It makes me feel lousy and disappointed thinking I have more of a 3rd kid than a partner, but whatever.  

... .but in the latter case, I have a harder time, because when is it going to end?  When can I demonstrate "enough" commitment for her to be happy?  It's been 5 years of marriage... .two kids... .two houses... . new car, thousands of dollars in immigration fees, dozens of hours of labor to fill out and file her immigration documents, doing the same for her mom now, dates, gifts, days of "listening," Helping her through two failed attempts to pass the exams to get her professional licensing, Taking the kids for half the summer weekends another time so she could study to pass another, telling her I respected her and she could stay home or go back to work whenever, yet still finding ways to blame me for (alternatively: having to go back to work, or taking time off to stay with newborn kids), and sticking by her through all this crap, and not divorcing her years ago.

None of that proves committment... .she's always going to need more.  And using my own relationship with my mom to demand I cut contact, renounce my mom, call her and yell at her for "disrespecting my wife" by sending her a gift she felt was cheap... .and alternatively threatening that she won't see her, let her see our kids, etc.  This is beyond the pale.  

[PeteWitsend]

it might be helpful to provide an instance that I've struggled with, in terms of enforcing boundaries:

situation: it's a day after a big fight, we've made up, and said our apologies.  she'll wait til things calm down, then the subtle insults and digs start.

We're putting the boys to bed.  it's my turn to read to them.  I'm picking a book w/oldest when youngest runs out of the room to hug his mom goodnight.  she brings him back in the room and makes a comment with a big smirk on her face like "Sorry [son] it's papa's turn to read.  We already have one mama's boy in this family. we don't need another"

what to do?  i'm immediately ready to fight, defend myself, and I'm upset being reminded that she's so selfish she'd pick such an inappropriate time to grind the axe, but I'm sitting there trying to be calm... .it's bed time... .if I do ANYTHING to defend myself, she's going to escalate it, and now we're loudly arguing instead of getting the kids ready for bed.

I'd normally just ignore it, and move on.  who really cares, right?  important thing is I have my family.  but when she makes comments like that, she's in attack mode.  it's not going to stop there, she'll just wait for the next opportunity, which will come soon enough, since she can relate any minor incident whatsoever to her issues... .no logical leap is too broad.

And I don't want my kids seeing me sit there and take this... .maybe they're a bit too young to understand it, but my oldest is very curious and asks a lot of questions.  What kind of message does this send to him?

[formflier]

I really have no way of enforcing boundaries (no fighting in front of the kids, no personal insults, no insulting my family), like today when we're out driving with family.  Or on a family vacation (we've had some insane fights erupt when we take trips). 

You do have a way... .a choice has been made to value the vacation and the "illusion" of a together family over YOUR boundary and YOUR values.  She understands this and violates your boundary.  Because really... .a property line that you are now willing to defend is not a property line.


1.  If you are already in the car.  Pull over, take the keys and walk away.  My favorite is to pull into a McDonalds take the keys and walk inside.  Forcing my wife to either throw a fit in public (which she doesn't like to do) or find a way to calm herself, come inside and talk. 

And yes... .if I get back in and she starts belittling me for boundary enforcement... .wash rinse repeat on pulling over and walking away.

2.  Many times we drive separately.  I rarely... .rarely ride with her where she is driving. 

Honestly the car thing hasn't been an issue for over a year.  I credit my boundary enforcement.

The last one I can remember was me driving and she started yammering on about my faults.  We were driving to a date so the "fact" of a date night was likely invalidating to her feelings that I was an ogre.

I succinctly let her know we could talk a later about her concerns or I would go on date alone.  I ended up taking her home and went and enjoyed a dinner by myself.

And... I brought some leftovers home to her... .

FF

[formflier]

  "Sorry [son] it's papa's turn to read.  We already have one mama's boy in this family. we don't need another"
 

No reason at all to respond in any way to that.  She knows it's a button... .she likes to push it.  Disconnect the button on your end.  Or decide not to put kids to bed with her and live somewhere else. 

The middle ground of sometimes responding and sometimes not is really worse for everyone.

What happens if you stand in the middle of the road?  What happens if you pick a side of the road and stand over there?

FF

[formflier]

None of that proves committment... .she's always going to need more.  

Right... so STOP shoveling and trying to fill up a black hole.

Is there ANY reason to keep expending energy trying to fill up that hole?  

I'm serious... . You have a finite amount of energy.  Spend it wisely.  

Take the Mom situation.  I can either show my wife that I won't be controlled and that family matters to me.

or I  can keep trying to fill up a bottomless pit.  Perhaps just one more shovel will do.

Note:  There is nothing in boundaries (that I am aware of) where there is enforcement and the other party is "happy" or "ok" with it.

Let their emotions be whatever they will be.  YOU uphold YOUR values... .without apology.

Can you make a commitment to stop apologizing to your wife or perhaps come here and post first, to make sure it is something you should apologize for.  

FF

[PeteWitsend]

I stopped apologizing.

after our last fight, when I left the house, during the "make up" talk, she tried to tell me I said hurtful things too, and asked me to apologize.  I pointedly told her no, I wouldn't be doing that, and anything I said was in direct response to her insults and if she wanted to, she could go back and read over the texts. 

I expected worse, but she didn't make a big deal about it at the time.  I'm learning to simply ignore her words... .apologize or not, I'd be in the same boat later. 

yesterday, despite spending more or less the whole day together as she wanted, the pin-prick MIL comments or other digs continued, like pointing to a family walking together, & saying "There's a dad who doesn't complain about having to spend time with his family."  I hadn't done that of course & was at that cery moment in a good mood and spending time with my family.  but it continued... .around 5 pm, I finally had enough, seeing it as a pattern at that point, and not just her getting up on the wrong side of the bed.

we didn't talk the rest of the way home, and then when we got in the door she started putting it all on me, acting surprised when I referenced the repeated slights and trying to play dumb... ."so if I stop telling you stories about my friends' MILs, you won't be upset with me? That's what all this is about?"

I told her I was done hearing about any of it, because I just didn't believe her anymore.  she said something like "You act like our marriage is in a bad place" and I told her I view that as true (i can't remember the exact words), and she went off sobbing.

our kids were napping in the car during this exchange.  I wouldn't have said any of that around them.

[PeteWitsend]

No reason at all to respond in any way to that.  She knows it's a button... .she likes to push it.  Disconnect the button on your end.  Or decide not to put kids to bed with her and live somewhere else. 

The middle ground of sometimes responding and sometimes not is really worse for everyone.

What happens if you stand in the middle of the road?  What happens if you pick a side of the road and stand over there?

FF

if/when I ignore these comments, they just continue.

I didn't mention it in this thread, but when the nastiness from her goes on and on, I think of what I know about my own in-laws. 

by all accounts, they had a stormy marriage characterized by mutual infidelity, and abuse - both physical and mental.  my in-laws have been legally divorced for more than a decade (I think, I can never get a straight answer) and physically separated for going on 4 years now.  my FIL moved out and never came back in 2014 (but still asks everyone for money)

I don't speak their language, but when we visited, I could tell when nastiness was going on between them because everyone else would get quiet.  when my wife has told me what they say to eachother, it kinda blows my mind how nasty it all is, like the "bitter husband and wife stock characters" from a 1950's or 60's sitcom: constantly bickering, no filter whatsoever, no concern for the other's feelings. 

given that is what she grew up with, I do wonder how much she views fighting as "normal" and even a sign of concern and affection(?) in a twisted way?  like he/she wouldn't scream at the other and tell them they hate them, they're worthless, an idiot who ruined their life, etc... .if they didn't REALLY love them. 

and so this is what she expects our marriage should be like.  and if it's not, if I quietly ignore the slights, abuse, insults, etc. she'll just keep at it until she gets a reaction.

that's why when I don't respond the way she wants, she has no problem "going there" and immediately escalating a discussion over where to go for a date, whether or not to buy XYZ, or something someone said into a full-blown shouting match.

[formflier]

acting surprised when I referenced the repeated slights and trying to play dumb... ."so if I stop telling you stories about my friends' MILs, you won't be upset with me? That's what all this is about?"
 

So... .you aren't really ignoring them, that is why they continue.

This is the little "game" or whatever that she likes to play.  If you stop playing, it will eventually die out.  Or if you significantly change the rules.

Perhaps if you just stopped listening to digs at all.  If you must address them, do it in the moment... with your feet.

"blah blah blah... .there is a guy that loves his family, doesn't complain, and has a nice but... .firm a succulent... .wouldn't I love to chew off some of that a$$... ."  (and of course you would be thinking... .well... .I'd have a nice one if you didn't nibble on it so much... )

"ouch... .I'm not going to go for a walk and listen to veiled insults.  We can talk about something else or I'll walk alone.  Which would you prefer?"

If she doesn't answer or keeps digging the veiled insult thing... .walk away.  Do NOT debate whether or not it is or was a veiled insult. 

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

  she'll just keep at it until she gets a reaction.
 

So... .either you nip it in the bud... in the moment.  Or you ignore it.  Forever.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=63989.0

Really need to understand why she keeps trying.

FF

[PeteWitsend]

So... .you aren't really ignoring them, that is why they continue.

... .

I guess I should clarify: I try and fail to ignore them.

eventually they get to me.

I think you're right though: it will take a different approach here.  I'll have to stay on my toes... .no relaxing when I'm around her really because she can and will cross the boundaries at any time or place, with no regard for the consequences. 

[formflier]

  I'll have to stay on my toes... .no relaxing when I'm around her really because she can and will cross the boundaries at any time or place, with no regard for the consequences. 

Right!  You've got it.

So... .I want you to relax twice as much this coming month as last month.

Self care is critical.

What are the implications for you taking better care of yourself?



FF

[PeteWitsend]

Right!  You've got it.

So... .I want you to relax twice as much this coming month as last month.

Self care is critical.

What are the implications for you taking better care of yourself?



FF

taking better care of myself: well, for one thing the wife won't like it. 

this is because me taking better care of myself = spending less time with her. 

Less time sitting around and listening to her for hours each night.  instead, going to the gym, or doing something I like.  I'm at that point that I don't care anymore... .If it ends, fine.  I'm going for broke at this point.  if she wants to escalate further, I have my attorney's number memorized and I'm ready to get a hotel room and file. 

I'm not going to be confrontational or aggressive, but I am not tolerating any more negativity from her... .none.

[formflier]

this is because me taking better care of myself = spending less time with her.   (when she is being a crank)

You have graduated... .!        Now go forth and conquer.

The place where you will need to learn some nuance is when letting her know.  It will take some trial and error.

Succinct  is critical.  Very focused.  Don't let her get lost in lots of words. 

"This conversation isn't working for me.  We can discuss something else or I'll go to the gym.  "

Note:  This isn't when she is full on flipped out... .this is way before that. 

Thoughts?

FF

[Radcliff]

Pete,

I'm catching up here.  formflier's given you a lot of good advice.  One of my personal favorites, because it took me so long to learn, is:

Note:  There is nothing in boundaries (that I am aware of) where there is enforcement and the other party is "happy" or "ok" with it.

Let their emotions be whatever they will be.  YOU uphold YOUR values... .without apology.

I was like, "Really?"  I thought I should negotiate boundaries and get my wife to agree to them.  I screwed that up for decades!

I guess I should clarify: I try and fail to ignore them.

eventually they get to me.

OK, many years ago (right around the time I started screwing up boundaries with my wife  ) I took a college psychology course.  One of the things they covered was "operant conditioning," where you train an animal or person to do something with rewards.  "Extinguishment" is when the behavior goes away.  If you give a reward every time the behavior happens, then suddenly stop, the behavior extinguishes fairly quickly.  If you give a reward only part of the time, the person doesn't expect the reward every time, so the behavior becomes VERY hard to extinguish.  Especially if you keep giving intermittent reinforcement.  So if you keep your cool 90% of the time, and only lose it 10% of the time when your wife tries really hard, guess what she'll do?  You got it, try very hard.  Over the course of a marriage, you can get in pretty deep!  You need to get really good at not giving a response.  And since pwBPD are so attuned to small signs of emotion or distress in us, that's a pretty tall order.

taking better care of myself: well, for one thing the wife won't like it. 

this is because me taking better care of myself = spending less time with her. 

Less time sitting around and listening to her for hours each night.  instead, going to the gym, or doing something I like.  I'm at that point that I don't care anymore... .If it ends, fine.  I'm going for broke at this point.  if she wants to escalate further, I have my attorney's number memorized and I'm ready to get a hotel room and file. 

It was hard to plan an evening with my wife.  It seemed like I was always orbiting near her trying to figure out what she wanted.  So much of my time got wasted waiting around to connect with her.  Yes!  Go to the gym!  Plan some time with her later that night, or the next day -- don't just be a jerk and head to the gym, let her know when you can spend time together and that you're looking forward to it, but don't sacrifice self care thinking you'll make her happy by neglecting yourself.  And if you do that self care, you may feel less resentment and have more energy to work the BPD tools with her.

I have never seen the tools here do harm.  I've never been worse off for using them.  I can't always get the results I want with them, but they have never been a waste of time.  Even when things are grim, I'd rather be trying with the tools than blowing my stack, lashing out, or withdrawing.  I've tried those three things and more, and the results are always worse.

One more thought as you're weighing how much to invest in practicing the tools.  Even if you do get divorced, you are going to have a relationship with your wife for a very long time, possibly forever, since you have kids together.  And you've got a long road to go before your kids launch.  So becoming a BPD tool ninja is a good investment, regardless of which path you take in the future.

WW

[Tattered Heart]

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