BPDFamily.com

Hi everyone,

If you're not familiar with my story, here's the last few threads:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=318439.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=319917.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=320090.0

TL:)R: A crazy series of events led to my decision to divorce uBPDstbxw.  She overdosed and spent a week in the hospital.  Now she's moved in with her stepmom who lives in a bordering state.

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Last Friday, the judge signed a 12-month temporary order granting me full custody of S5.  However, uBPDstbxw can have him for any length of time, even out of state, at my discretion.

That same day, we met at the halfway point and exchanged him for the weekend.  The next day, she took him to the beach, forgot sunscreen (fortunately he's not as pasty white as I am, but he still got pretty burnt), and then lost her car key and had to spend most of the money I had just sent her on a locksmith... .

When I met her halfway to pick S5 up the following day, she initially refused to let me start getting his things into my car until I had a discussion with her about getting more custody.  This was infuriating -- the 12-month order was her idea, and she's already trying to get me to change things!  I threatened to call the local police (I actually dialed the number, but my cell phone was acting up and wouldn't work until I later restarted it... .).  That got her to agree to start moving his things to my car, but after I got him loaded up, she still wanted to have the discussion before she would say goodbye to him.  So I left her with him and grabbed a cup of coffee (we were in a restaurant parking lot).  When I returned, I got in the car and drove away.

The next day, she called and apologized.  We've been on surprisingly good terms since the split.  She's also been surprisingly high functioning.  In less than two weeks, she's already landed a decent sales job and has a lead on a place to live.  Before this all happened, she would barely ever leave the house because she was allegedly so sick.

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Right now, I have judge-ordered physical custody.  I also have a great talking point for her, which she mostly agrees with -- "I should have custody while you get back on your feet."

However, I'm concerned about the future, which is probably pretty near at the rate she's been doing things, in which she is settled into her new life and feels that she is fully capable of being a parent.  "A mother needs her son," she likes to tell me.

Initially, she asked for holidays and school breaks only.  I'm ok with that.  Then she started saying we need a 50% split.  If she wasn't nearly 8 hours away, I'd be moderately ok with that, but it's not practical with our current distance.  Now she's saying that she should get the school year since I get summers off.

For now, I keep saying, "Focus on yourself for now.  Let's wait and see what happens at the end of the 12 months."  But I can't keep kicking this can forever.  Eventually, I need to make it clear to her that I intend to have primary custody.

Fathers in a good initial parenting status especially have to be careful about feeling guilted into Gifting Away their initial advantage.  By nature we are fair people but custody and paranting schedules are not about being fair or overly fair as we are likely to be.  The disordered spouse is unlikely to reciprocate our sense of fairness.  Of course court wants things to go better over time (so understand well that court will bend over backwards to not disadvantage her) but you have the responsibility to do what is best for your young son.


You need caution here.  People with BPD have an intense sense if neediness.  It's like she feels the child is an extension of herself, to an unhealthy extent.  But she's got it backwards, it is a child who needs his parent.  What she says isn't totally wrong, but it displays her self-focused perspective.

My ex too laid in bed for months, not getting out of bed until I left for work, blaming me for everything wrong in her life, that I didn't love our son, that she'd disappear with him and I'd never see him again, etc.  Lo and behold, once our conflict was raised to the level of getting the police involved, she miraculously got up, found work, etc.

You have a rare advantage now... .you're the stable parent AND you have a solid position in parenting.  Don't feel pressured into Gifting it Away.  We all know you won't be mean or unreasonable.  But the real risk is that you feel you have to be nice and overly fair.  You can't risk that until she's gotten into meaningful therapy and has proved herself over time to have applied it in her thinking, her perceptions, her behaviors, her life.  Recovery is not an event, it is a long process.  Reward her too much too quick and you risk enabling her sense of entitlement and control.

Oh, and getting a job is not what I mean about recovery.  Studious application of DBT or similar therapy in her life is so critical.  A few sessions is only a start.  Probably it will take a couple years to determine whether she's solidly on the path to recovery.

Understand too that distance can allow some of the misbehaviors to be hidden or not rise to the surface.  She's 8 hours away.  She will seem better because you're not there all the time to trigger her overreactions.  Yes, she found work and a place to live, but notice how the conflict arose so quickly at the exchange?

Hi prof,

Keep every month of that 12 months, your wife is just coming out of a crisis, is getting a lot of attention and is on her best behavior but without serious work on her part I don't expect the best behavior to last.  I hate to sound like a "Negative Nelly" but based on my experience observing my SO's uBPDxw the same bad behaviors will reappear again over time.  Proceed with caution and keep your focus on what is best for your son that is your job and should be your focus. What is best for your wife is up to her.

Maybe you set a boundary to not talk divorce with your wife for a period of time, say 6 months and during that period observe and document if needed her behaviors and re-evaluate things again at the end of 6 months.

Just tell her you don't want to talk about the divorce for a while as everyone is settling in to their "new normal".  If she brings it up tell her you aren't ready to discuss it.  Put the "blame" on yourself something like "I'm still adjusting to the new situation, I'm not ready to talk about the divorce yet.

Don't feel pressured to decide something right now, wait, watch, process, get some distance between the two of you,  spend time with your son, meet with a divorce lawyer (ask questions) and get some perspective before deciding to discuss anything and especially before doing/agreeing to anything with your wife.  You have the luxury of 12 months to do this.  The 12 months is a real blessing in terms of time, in terms of healing, in terms of stability for your son, in terms of decision making and sets a parenting pattern leading into court.

Panda39

Hi prof,

I read all three links. Wow, friend. You've been through the wringer. Hats off to you for holding steady in the storm, and keeping things together for S5. I'm glad you have friends here to reach out to when you need peer support.


What does your L say?

Also, a technicality on terminology. Primary custody is definitely meaningful -- it's also different than visitation. You can have primary physical custody and 50/50 visitation.

You can also have sole legal custody, which is significant for many of us, and kind of hard to get. Usually things start with joint legal custody -- because of your wife's psychiatric stay, it's possible there is a strong case for sole custody, at least for these 12 months.

A lot of BPD post-divorce relationship conflict ends up manifesting in coparenting decision-making, so if you have decision-making (sometimes broken out from legal custody) in your back pocket, you can focus on what is best for S5 when your wife cannot. It doesn't mean you drop the ball on coparenting skills, it just means if push comes to shove, you can move forward on a decision re: S5 without her consent.

When it comes to your wife focusing on the custody plan, compare it to her thing with Christmas.

She has poor impulse control, has poor emotion regulation, no boundaries, and will do anything to stop the pain. So if you feel now is not the time to discuss it, then treat it like Christmas. She will need your help learning about this new boundary.

Consistency will help here.

Unless, of course, your L thinks it's important to move quickly.

I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, prof. Hope you and S5 are finding time to heal and enjoy your time.

LnL

This is exactly what I'm feeling.  Thank you for putting this into words!  uBPDstbxw has been putting on a real show the last few days about how hurt she is that I won't just agree to letting her have him during the school year.  Never mind that she's only been out of the psychiatric hospital for a little more than two weeks... .


According to my L, we share legal custody and I have sole physical custody with liberal visitation rights for her.  He says that I'm in the "best possible position for a father with a minor child' in our state.  So that's very comforting!

Remember that the above is connected to below in more ways than one  :)



There is no overcoat on her emotions, everything is probably high intensity all the time, needs must be met immediately, problem solving is not a strength, boundaries are nil. She's in free fall and her emotions are going to be super raw and her thinking will be distorted, probably more than normal for her, altho it might depend on the team working with her and who else is in there with her.

Plus, her illness is directly interfering with her ability to be a mother, something deeply deeply shameful in a person who will likely go to great lengths to avoid experiencing that feeling.

Clinging to the idea she can get her parenting situation back to normal might be an attempt to avoid rock bottom.

We all do stuff to avoid feeling bad. Hers is really extreme. 

One concern with shared legal custody is what happens when the parents don't agree.  For many it means the parent who wants to do something has to file for court, a parenting coordinator or mediator to address the matter.  The court would probably take several months, the others perhaps a little less time.  For now you should be in the driver's seat.  After a year, who knows... .  Somewhere along the way you may want to solidify what shared legal custody means.  Concepts that are essentially like full custody but are still joint are Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.  Does your state have something like that?  The difference is that instead of you waiting on professionals to decide major issues, you get to proceed after the disagreement and then the ex is the one who has to file and wait on the professional's input.

One reason family courts are reluctant to resort to full custody is they don't want a parent to feel shut out or invalidated.

Did you document the sunscreen/sunburn? 

Did you have any kind of written agreement for the exchange over the weekend? 

What you are essentially saying by letting her have him (potentially) is that she is ok for unsupervised visits.  At least she could argue this.  If you have documentation of the sunburn, you would have an argument back.

My initial reaction would be you should wait until you have something in writing from her therapist that she is stable for short term unsupervised visits.

I would avoid putting YOURSELF as the determining person there, without outside validation of your view.

Let me ask it another way.  Knowing what you know now, would you do this again?

FF

Hello prof,

It's been a while.  Have you had a peaceful month?

WW

Relatively peaceful -- thanks for asking!

I'm definitely starting to get used to my new life.  S5 has started soccer, so I spend a couple nights a week taking him to practices and games.  I try and go for a run while he's playing.  I'm also getting pretty active in my church, where I sing the choir.  Work is going well.

For the most part, uBPDstbxw and I have a cordial relationship.  Things can go south when custody stuff comes up, of course.

Right now, S5 is on spring break, and he's spending it with her.  The original plan was for me to drive him down Thursday evening, as both he and I had Friday off.  But I had car trouble on the way down, and needed get that taken care of.  uBPDstbxw was understandably unhappy, and expected me to rent a car so she could get him down to her that night.  She also was frustrated with me that while I was originally trying to figure out what was wrong with the car and what to do about it, I didn't want to talk to her on the phone about my plans.  I think I handled her well, calmly setting boundaries.

Everything worked out as best as it could.  I dropped the car off at a shop on Thursday and got rides home and then back to the shop on Friday (fortunately I was only about an hour away).  We handed S5 off on Friday afternoon.  I even got back home in time to sing for my church's Good Friday service!

I fully expect a meltdown from uBPDstbxw next weekend when S5 comes back -- that's been the case so far for the our two previous exchanges.

Do you have professionals saying it is a good idea for her to have unsupervised times with him?

Is this the first unsupervised time she has had?

What kind of custody has she agreed to (even if not finalized yet).

FF

prof, I'm glad you're settling into a new routine.  Thanks for the update!

I am not nearly choir material, but an activity I did as part of my "get a life" efforts was to go to a local Messiah singalong last Sunday.  It was remarkable!

I'll hold off on any questions and let you focus on formflier's questions for now... .

WW

My L suggests keeping her relatively happy for the time being, and the visits are a big part of that.


No, the third.  She had a weekend shortly after this all started, then a week last month and now this week.


We're in the third month of a 12-month temporary agreement, which she signed and is based on her suggestions.  I have full physical custody, and all visits with her are at my disgression.  No visitation schedule is currently set in stone -- it's all informal between us.

A few thoughts. Make sure you document things that don't go well for S5. One sunburn is not big deal to the courts but a string of various things will raise eyebrows in court. Make sure you have records of any such incidents.

In the beginning my ex was very high functioning. She was extremely convincing in court. I even started to doubt myself a few times. She had a very good job. Slowly she started unraveling. It took about three years. She was no longer convincing in court. She lost her good job. Got another job but nowhere near as good. We only communicate though email. We have very few exchanges anymore but when I get an email they are usually passive/aggressive and very different then our court order. I simply quote the order and follow it.

Remember, S5 will be starting school in a year. Does uBPD live in the same school district or close enough ? If not, how will she handle that. No need to discuss it. I agree to give it time to see what happens. Never divulge information you do not have to divulge. I used to do that and ex always used it against me.

In addition to what the others said, document.

Things can happen. My then D2 was running around at a pizza parlor, fell and broke her clavicle.  That was on mom's time.  On my time,  then S6 was jumping on my bed,  fell and fractured his skull (he turned out ok). Neither of these incidents were our faults, but accidents. Kids! The lack of sunscreen,  however,  seems neglectful. Based upon that incident, more may come.  Document.

Can you update us on the status of moving closer to work and school for your kid?  Seems like it was talked about and possibly done.

FF

They're building a new apartment complex nearby that would be perfect.  It opens this summer, and I'm on the waiting list to learn more about it.

After the semester finishes up next month, I'm going to spend more time looking for other places as well.

My hands are a little tied with all our pets.  uBPDstbxw wants our dog and 2 cats, which would leave me with 2 cats.  That should make the search a bit easier.

 
Do you want the cats?  Or would you rather trade them for goldfish?

So... .you are still living in the rural property... right?


Prof,

Very proud of you for taking your stand... .for being there for your kid... .I'm sure your story has inspired others!    |iiii


What changes have you noticed in your relationship with your son?

FF

Yes and no.  I love cats.  I grew up with them as a kid and always planned on having a couple of my own when I grew up.  That was one of the things that drew me to uBPDstbxw in the first place -- we both loved cats.  She even had one when we started dating.  Then she convinced me to get one of my own.  Then we got a third one together.  And a fourth one.  And so on... .

But I could use a break.  I've cleaned out enough litter pans, paid enough vet bills, etc., to last a lifetime.  (I'm actually procrastinating from doing the litter right now as I type this .)

The reality is looking like uBPDstbxw is going to take at most two cats, leaving me with two.  Which is fine.  A lot better than 27!



Yes, for now.



None, really.  The dynamic really hasn't changed much.  I was the primary caregiver before when uBPDstbxw laid in bed all day.  I'm the primary caregiver now that she's not here.

So here's the latest drama.

uBPDstbxw wants to put S5 in daycare when he visits her on weekdays when she works.  And she wants me to pay for it.

I told her on the phone today that I would do no such thing.  She's retaliating by making me drive the entire distance to pick him up this weekend instead of meeting halfway like we planned.

She'll be in violation of our custody agreement if she doesn't reimbursement half of my travel expenses.

That certainly sounds upsetting.  But it sounds like a question for your lawyer.  Do you have an interim support agreement in place?  Is this something where you can just look up the rules, or is there ambiguity?


Does she have a really good excuse, like a broken car?  Could this be a boundaries thing?  Could you drive halfway to the meet point, and say you'll call the police if she doesn't show up?  Or drive to the meet point, if she doesn't show, drive home, and ask your lawyer to call her lawyer and demand that she return him?  I may not have the exact right solution here... .can you think of a consequence that works to help enforce a boundary on this?  Something that is effective and keeps drama as low as is consistent with being effective?

WW

As you go back to court think of additions to the custody order that cover the obstacles you have encountered and/or can anticipate occurring.
Years backer order had me pick our boys up at exes' residence. Problem was, she would not let them have their schoolbags even though they were overnight with me. Ex took me to court for a protection order. She claimed she was afraid whenever I was near her. I sat in my car ? but that is another issue. I did not try to counter that she was incorrect. Instead I requested that I pick the boys up at their school instead of her place. Judge loved that idea. Ex was not happy but realized she had no argument against it so she agreed. I had my attorney hand write the new order right there in court. The judge looked it over, gave it to ex, she signed, I signed, and the judge signed.
I went to pick the boys up the next day at school. I was told that I could not without exes' agreement. Ex told the school she had complete authority over any such occurrences. I gave them copy of the new order. They questioned it since it was not typed out. I had them fax it to their legal and was driving away in about 15 minutes after that. Ex was furious in an email to me.

As time goes on... you will find more gotchas.

I would recommend you be pragmatic.  Go all the way and get your son.

Step 1... .get him in your custody.

Step 2... .send her bill... certified return reciept


I would say that the agreement should be updated before she gets him again on overnights.

You understand why she doesn't do these things when she doesn't have him... right?  She wants to use him as leverage.

FF

Her troubles regulating emotions may make it harder to solve problems than it is for you.

This is a poor attempt to solve her own problems (of her making) -- she wants to see S5, and she has to work. She doesn't feel there is enough money to pay for child care, so she wants you to do it.

I know it's hard when you have emotional skin in the game, but from out here on the Internet, the simple answer to her suggestion is: no.

 :)

"I am glad you want S5 to be with you and I know he's looking forward to it. You have to work and he needs someone to care for him, and you feel strapped for cash. I am, too. Let's work out a short-term solution that focuses on what is best for S5. When there is not enough money to cover day care expenses during your time with him, he can spend time with me. If there is any ambiguity, let's get it ironed out with the lawyers so things are clear going forward."


This is another problem of her own making. Let her solve it.

"Please let me know by day/time if you will be meeting us halfway. If I don't hear from you by then, I will assume our arrangement to meet halfway is off the table. Let me know when you would like to reschedule and I will gladly meet you at the arranged halfway point."

It gets easier when you get some distance and feel less emotionally triggered by her tit for tat.


Try to keep leverage where possible. She broke the agreement to drive halfway, so then the agreement is off. If the custody agreement says she needs to reimburse your travel expenses, and she does not agree to do that, then next time you are in court offer consequences and solutions for when she goes off script like this.

Document everything, and like others have said, clear everything with your lawyer.

The goal for family courts is to keep you out of there. Judges don't want to solve this stuff -- they want to see one or both parents come forward with their own solutions. Your ex will not comply when she is triggered, and there is a learning curve as you find out the many ways in which she will sabotage herself and you when her emotions are in the red zone. Once you get a feel for that, you can start modifying the custody agreement to have built in consequences that guide you when she is not in compliance.

Meeting for exchanges at a halfway point keeps things as fair as possible - if both work with the schedule.  Yeah.

Some default court schedules have the delivering party drive to the receiver's area.  (Or is it the other way around?)  Whichever way you choose, you want it to be right for you.  I recall seeing one mother waiting at the sheriff's parking lot, one I used for years due to risk of conflict at my exchange.  The mother said she had to come per order, wait and then leave because her ex seldom came to enable a visit with his child.  I remember thinking that she ought to have in her order that after two failed exchanges (her delivering children but him not coming) then the father would have to inform her 24 hours in advance when he would be showing up.

That's not your problem of course, but the point is that there may be some non-standard solution.  How about this?  "Evidently you want me to come pick up our children from your residence (or a neutral location nearby).  If that is what works for you then I am okay with changing the order so that each parent picks up from the other's residence or nearby.  Understand that this means: I would pickup from your residence, your daycare or nearby, and equally, you would pick up from my residence, my daycare or nearby.  Is that what you are seeking?"

You are offering an equitable solution that no court would reject as unfair.  It puts the ball back in her court, if she makes a change, it affects both pickups and dropoffs, not just the portions that are convenient for her.

If you do have an order for meeting halfway and you don't see a need to cave to her demand, then arrive at your midway point, wait for a reasonable time window (in the past my county has stated the time window is a half hour) and then call the local police (there) to report a failed exchange.  Usually an officer will arrive, call your ex and try to convince her to follow the order and then make a report.  You get a couple reports like that and then you have solid independent documentation for a Contempt of Court case.  Be forewarned that Contempt determinations are too often handed out like parking tickets, mothers are seldom fined or sent to jail, it may take a few before the court gets peeved.

On Friday, uBPDstbxw called me claiming that she "didn't want to be petty," and agreed to meet halfway.

She also wanted me to bring down one of her lizards.   One less animal for me to take care of -- sounded great to me!  I asked if she wanted the stand that we put the lizard's tank on.  I thought that she said yes.  (She later claimed that she said that she will want it, i.e., at some point in the future when we move the bulk of her stuff.)

I sent her a text in the morning saying to make sure there's room in her trunk to put S5's car seat, because the stand will take up her entire back seat.  (I had just finished doing exactly the same thing in my car.)  She responded saying that there would be plenty of room after we took S5's luggage out of her trunk.

When we met, uBPDstbxw saw that I had the stand in my car and claimed it wouldn't fit in hers.  Even though her car is smaller, I was pretty sure it would be just fine.  She didn't want me to put the lizard tank in the front seat, because that was where she needed to put her purse.  "Put your purse on top of the lizard!"  She didn't like that either.  Then she claimed she wouldn't be able to get it out of her car.  "Have the guys at work help you!"  (The lizard is going to her office.)  Then she told me she always gets to work before they do.  "Wait until they get there!"  Then she changed the subject to some other reason she couldn't take the stand.  Wow -- I don't missing living with this one bit!

She insisted that it was my mistake for bringing the stand in the first place, and that I would need to deal with it.  I finally had it, and started carrying the stand toward a dumpster in the corner of the parking lot that we'd met in.  She finally relented and I loaded everything in her car.  It fit just fine... .

Meanwhile, S5 was watching the whole exchange and called me out for fighting.  Apparently, uBPDstbxw had promised him that we would eat lunch together as a family.  At this point, there was no way I wanted to do anything other than load S5 up in my car and get the heck out of there.  But I relented after S5 guilted me a bit.

Things calmed down a bit when we ate.  I agreed to buy uBPDstbxw a towel to cover the lizard's tank so she could run the AC in her car.  (Yet another problem with how I'd loaded her car... .)

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A few hours later, I get a call from uBPDstbxw.  She'd gotten home, but I was still 30-45 min away from my place.  She was angry at me for taking away from her time video chatting with S5... .  (Even though we meet at the halfway point distance-wise, it takes me about an hour longer each way because I have a lot of 2-lane rural roads, while her trip is all freeway.)

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Tonight when she was video chatting with S5, she was certain that I had someone else at the house.  (I didn't... .)  She yelled at me for talking to S5 about the Lego set we were building while she was video chatting.  She freaks out and texts, "Why can't I talk to me son?" when my phone's on vibrate and I miss her call.  Gah!

Hey prof, some of your wife's behaviors certainly sound frustrating.  What things might you have done differently at the exchange if you had it to do over again, with an eye towards S5 not witnessing conflict?

She complains about your video chats with S5.  Just let it slide off your back.

She complained about you talking during her chat with S5.  Was that at the very beginning of the call or in the middle?  I imagine you need to set him up in the beginning.  Can you establish a routine where you set him up and then leave?

WW

I would be pragmatic... .make a list of everything in your house that you believe to be hers.

Consider what you think is on that list that might be important.

Consider what she may think is important on that list.

Consider if that would fit in one car trip.  Consider if that would fit in a car trip with your son also in the car.

The purpose is to "disentangle" and "take away tools she has or might use to bash you".


Likely you should post here before offering to take any of this stuff to her. 

What kind of responses did you have to "you have someone in the house" and "you are messing up video chats".  (the key is to make sure you are not "feeding" her need (whatever it may be).

FF

Hi prof,

This is a good play-by-play of how someone with intense emotions struggles to problem solve.

She probably has a lifetime of profoundly overwhelming emotions coupled with a deficit regulating them, and that prevents her from managing some of the cognitive processes non-BPD people may take for granted. Her skills are weak at best.

Yours have to be twice as good.  :)

When she is around you, expect her to dysregulate a little bit, if not a lot. It's painful to see an ex-partner  so in those moments she is going to be even more handicapped. The push-pulls can be internal, too. She probably wants to be competent, and it's terrifying at the same time. Push, pull. From one second to the next, she will want to be rescued, and then resent help.

Validating questions can help you communicate skillfully without solving problems for her. This keeps the push-pull dynamic in her court.

You be a coach, not a player.

You can also let her lead on problem solving, and set boundaries for how you are willing to be involved. "I admire you for setting stuff aside so we can meet halfway, and I truly appreciate it. You mentioned bringing the lizard. Let me know how best to handle the transfer, what I should bring and what you will need. I'll take your lead. You have a good sense of what you'll need when transferring the lizard so I'll wait for your instructions. I know the lizard will do well under your care because you're so good with him" or whatever you say about lizards  :)

The hard part is managing your own emotions so that you can engage with her skillfully.

It's not easy!

It's also possible.

Everyone wants to feel competent 


S5 is a boss  :)

There is a good book called Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When One Parent Has BPD by Bill Eddy. It was a game changer for me. Eddy makes you realize that you are modeling specific skills for your kid, and breaks them down for you.

These exchanges are not about you and your ex. They are about you and S5. Show him the skills he needs to internalize so he can grow up emotionally resilient.

Learning these skills for him will change not only his life, but yours.

 :)

LnL

And... .this just isn't fair... .but it is. 

Personally I've struggled with "If she is the crazy one... .why do I have to work so hard?"  Then I look around at my kids... .and the improvements and the relative "stability" that has come to our family, largely as a result of my hard work.

There will be more moments when your kids "call you out" or otherwise "ask a hard question" and you realize you have much more work to do... .those times will be hard, yet getting clarity on places where you can improve is always a good thing.  Always...

As your kid gets older, you will have other moments where you see the fruits of your hard work... .trust me... .those moments will make all this hard work worth it.

I'm taking out S15 for a celebratory dinner tonight.  I got the text today "I'm officially in early college".

A bit over a year ago we had counselors advising us to put him in a high school program for freshmen in high school that is primarily for "troublemakers".  S15 is really smart... .but his mind wanders... .organizational skills are a bit lacking.

So... .we put him in the program and I focused on validating... .gently nudges... .praise... .but generally let him run his own life.  He's done much better than I figured he would.

Anyway... .keep up the hard work!  It will pay off.

FF

I'm just now remembering that by the rules we were going by at custody exchanges, passing adult items like legal papers or possessions at the time of the exchange was expressly forbidden.  The children are not supposed to see the mechanics of this stuff, since it can be upsetting.  I know with the distance and the fact that S5 has to be cared for that makes things awkward, but it is something to think about.  Even if you do exchange things, the fact that in some areas it's forbidden may be an indication of how important it is to make that exchange of material appear nearly invisible to the child.  Talking ahead of time about where the material will go, trunks being clear, her distracting him while you load, that sort of thing.

I am just now starting ":)on't Alienate the Kids" as well.  livednlearned, I'm glad to hear it was helpful.  I'm very concerned about our kids relationships with me, realize that my wife may not get better, and the only thing I can control is my own actions.  There's a lot of room for positive parenting to offset some of the limitations of the other partner.  It's a ton of work, but worth it.

WW

Yeah... .now that I think about it... .I would think good advice going forward is the ONLY thing that you guys will exchange is your son... .if your son is around.

If you son is not around, then papers, lizards and all that.


Much of a relationship/divorce from a pwBPD is trial by fire.  You job is to only step on the landmine once.  It's unlikely that she intended for the lizard thing to be a big deal or trigger you... .but for whatever reason it turned out that way.

So... .now you know that you guys don't jointly possess the skills to swap other stuff in the presence of your kid... .you've learned your lesson... move along.

If you choose to use this as a limit/boundary... .expect her to test it.  Likely best to reference this lizard incident... .apologize for your part in it... .and assure her that going forward your focus is on a smooth exchange of the child.

Thoughts?

FF

I am remembering yet more.  Three months after the RO, we had our first custody evaluation to determine if orders would be adjusted.  The custody evaluator specifically asked how custody exchanges had gone, and one story about a rough exchange came out during an interview and went into the record.  This is an area where evaluators focus.  prof, not to worry you overly much, I think you're OK, just adding emphasis to the fact that effort for smooth exchanges is worth your while.

WW

I would add that you are OK as long as YOU can lay out a story of.

1.  We had a booboo in this one exchange because we tried to do other things "in addition to" exchanging the child.

2.  I learned from that and set limits that the "only thing" we would do when a child is present is exchange the child.

No need to place "blame" on anyone for the first one... .but I think that "taking responsibility" going forward for smoothness is more important.

If it ever gets to the point where an evaluator is hearing from you that you have strong limits because... .xyz.  And your wife is complaining that you are an a$$hole because you won't bring her another lizard during a child exchange...

Well... I think that will be telling and good for you.

FF

Due to the distance (4 hours for me, 3 for her to the halfway point), it would be logistically very difficult to do any exchanging of possessions without S5 being there.

uBPDstbxw just got her own place.  I'm planning on UHauling her stuff (and our dog and the two remaining reptiles) to her in two weeks.  I'll also be leaving S5 with her for a week.  So there shouldn't be any more handing off of possessions after that.

---

Just had an interesting exchange with uBPDstbxw during her nightly video chat with S5.  She's been sick recently and asked if I could send her any old antibiotics she still had in her medicine cabinet.  I checked their website, and it's illegal to mail prescription drugs unless you're registered with the DEA.  So of course I refused.  I tell her to go to to the doctor, and even find an urgent care place in her new town that's open for a couple hours after she's done with work on Monday.  But she refuses to go the doctor and calls me out for being lazy!   

Thanks for the recommendation!   I'll definitely check that book out.

prof,

Thanks for the update.  I'm glad to hear that your days as a lizard courier are almost over, and you still have a good name with the DEA  :)

WW

 :)

Validating questions can be really helpful for you (and the person with BPD). Helpful doesn't always mean that it will feel good 

"That's rough you're feeling sick. I wish I could send the meds -- did you know it was illegal to send by mail? I wouldn't want you to get in trouble. Is there another way you can get the medication you need?"

As much as possible, whenever the opportunity arises, let her solve her own problems. It will model an important skill for S5, may give your ex a feeling you have confidence in her (after she gets mad at you :) and you won't be spending time care-taking her.

It's been a little while since I've given an update.

I picked up S5 from his mom's new place this past weekend.  uBPDstbxw claimed car trouble would prevent her from meeting halfway.  (I will be asking for compensation for 1/2 my gas money.)  It was the easiest pickup yet -- she seemed exhausted and wasn't really in a mood to fight me over anything .

S5 has 3 more weeks of school, and then we're planning on him going down to be with his mom for the bulk of the summer.  She wants me to pay for daycare, which I've refused to do.  Today on the phone, she even claimed that at some point in the past, I told her that I would pay for daycare, which is ridiculous!  When she wouldn't let it go, I ended the conversation.  She tried calling back 10(!) times and then sent some nasty texts, which I forwarded to my L.

On the same phone call, I also offered for her to have S5 this weekend for Mother's Day, provided she repays me enough to cover my gas.  (I'm broke from renting a Uhaul to move her stuff down to her two weekends ago.)  We'll see what happens there.

At this point, we're just waiting to hear back from the court regarding a hearing date.  I'm looking forward to getting past all of this!

If she were low-conflict and in the normal range of emotional regulation, the court orders would work well.

But court orders don't create boundaries where there are none. They create some hard lines in a legal strategy in case she is on the high end of high conflict.

You can see this with the daycare conversation. She will probably continue to believe things she feels, even when you produce a document of fact.

It does help to produce a document. It won't solve everything.

It's just as helpful to know how and when to assert boundaries.

Do you see how driving to solve the car problem is rescuing her from figuring it out herself?

There are many ways to get things sorted out without protecting people from natural consequences.

People who have car problems deal with those problems out all the time. It's obviously easier to help her, but you two can barely interact without fighting. And you are not in a relationship any more.

"I will come get S5 but will not have money to drive him halfway for Mother's Day. I know you want to see him on Mother's Day, and I will have him ready. Is there a way you can get yourself down here that day? Let me know by day/time, otherwise I will assume he'll spend that time here. I know he's looking forward to seeing you (next time).

That's just one example. It lets you pick up S5. Another possibility is that you pick up S5 and then she figures out how to get all the way down to you to pick him up. He stays with you until she figures out how to get her car problem sorted out.

Getting yourself into a situation where she is supposed to pay you for something you offered to do is really messy and just keeps everyone aggravated.

Unfortunately, a court order does not solve the problem of us having messy boundaries.

What is the thinking behind this, especially if he is going to be in daycare and not in her care.  Why send him down there?

FF

In my opinion, this is much better than asking her for money.  Much better.

What are your thoughts on why this option is much better than asking for money.

FF

Meeting at the halfway point sounds like a good idea. Lnl makes a good point about sticking to the halfway point and sending an email giving consequences "otherwise I will assume he'll spend that time here."
 It sets a boundary which she may not appreciate and may attack. Don't take the bait and don't argue. You stated a fact of what you will do. It is simple. However, it may also be that she does not want to spend so much time driving and may start not taking the times she is legally entitled to. My ex gives me more time because it is too much effort on her part. I don't bring it up and simply accept the additional time. My ex sees no consequence to that so it makes it easy for her to do it. She can still be MOTY because no one is seeing it and I am not throwing it in her face. I know that sounds twisted but you have to deal with the cards you are being dealt.
It took me a while to really understand how different my ex thinks/views/feels things than I do.
My emails are short and focused. I do not entertain any of her allegations, etc.
An example, " What time will you be picking the boys up on (date) so I can have them ready? I discovered that these kinds of emails sometimes send her into a mild rage. Our boys told me that she starts screaming at the computer, cursing me out, and accusing me of trying to control her ? I don't think I will ever understand that.

I agree... .she will find it quite convenient for her her son to show up on her doorstep - how nice! Why should she put forth any effort that is inconvenient or that costs her monet?

Stick with a pattern that establishes a predominant freaking role on your part.

Are you prepared to have him down there for the bulk of every summer?  Is it a good environment for him to be in for that long of a time?  Will you have time with him to break up the summer, so you don't have a very long stretch without him?  It might be easier on him and on you, and it would let you check to see how he's doing.  Have you baked in a couple of weeks for you to take a vacation with him, even if this year you may not be able to?  You are setting a precedent for future years.

WW

He's only 5 years old.  He won't care whether Mother's Day is on a particular weekend.  Maybe you could Let Go the Mother's Day date and just tell her she can celebrate it with him on his next visit?  (If you had an order then likely it would require that she get Mother's Day just as you would get Father's Day, regardless whose parenting time it was.

Evidently the issue is who does the driving.  Stick to the order, if you have one.  Meeting halfway may not make sense with risk of conflict and no-shows.  I think my county said each parent had to deliver the child to the exchange locations at exchange times.  My county allowed up to 30 minutes for an exchange window.  Understand that if she fails to "deliver" when required, then that is basis to get a police incident recorded so you can use such instances in Contempt of Court proceedings for failed exchanges.

Look ahead to the summer.  Granting her most of the summer could get wrapped into a temp order and later the final decree.  Is that okay with you?  At the least put in writing that you expect to take some vacations with S5.  As an example, my county defaults to each parent getting up to 3 one week vacations (with up to two of the weeks combined) per year on a first request basis.

Great points.  I just got off the phone with uBPDstbxw and reminded her of my offer to meet halfway for a weekend visit, provided that she repaid me enough to cover my gas.  She pivoted it into an argument that she doesn't owe me anything for the Uhaul rental.  (I honestly would be surprised if I see a dime of it.)  She also apparently still has the car issue that prevented her from meeting halfway last weekend.  So it looks like S5 will be spending Mother's Day with me.




Excellent points!  Sending him down there for the summer I think was an early concession I made to her.  I don't really understand how it's supposed to work on her end.  She brings him to work with her when he's down there now, but her boss has told her that won't be allowed this summer.  And I doubt she'll be able to afford daycare at this point.  I'm certainly not going to give in and pay for it.

I'm worried now about Wentworth and ForeverDad's points about setting a precedent for the courts.  I'll talk to my L about it and see what his thoughts are.

---

uBPDstbxw seems obsessed with finding out why I'm "doing this to her".  I feel that it's quite evident that our marriage wasn't working out, and don't see any need to give her some grand explanation.  And when I do mention how bad our marriage had gotten, she blames everything under the sun except her behavior.  My behavior, her health, her pain medication, various deaths of friends and family, where we lived, etc.  Today, she even defended the times she had threatened to leave as somehow steps towards saving our marriage!

I'm not really sure what to do here.  My gut is just to ignore it, and let her deal with the loss of the relationship on her own.

Yes.  Exactly.  You can't carry her load for her.

Regarding the summer, you seem to have some misgivings about your son's care arrangement.  Perhaps she'd care for him and lose her job.  Perhaps she'd work and leave him in substandard care.  You are inclined to try to be as fair as possible, and are still subject to guilt, and genuinely want to maintain the mother-child bond.  But your higher duty is to your son and his well being.  Even to the point of altering his summer plans.  Remind us, this is all ad hoc, not on any court orders, correct?  You and she are just talking directly?  Are you headed for a custody evaluation process at some point?

If I were you, I would not yield your son until she has articulated a credible care plan.  You can have your lawyer ask her lawyer for this.  I would get it in writing in a letter from her lawyer.  All of this may seem hard-nosed, but as long as your actions are not emotional and are mindfully in service of your son, you are not being selfish, controlling, or any other adjectives she or you may put upon you.

If she cannot give a credible care plan, then consider constructive alternatives, like she takes a week off work in June and a week off in July for two week long visits.

It can be exhausting and often ineffective to communicate with a pwBPD directly in situations like this.  Sometimes it makes sense, but oftentimes, increasing the involvement of professionals like lawyers and counselors to help with the communication is a good thing.  Busy professionals often have a way of slicing through a lot of the behaviors that throw you for a loop (although they also can get co-opted by the pwBPD as Eddy warns in "Splitting."

WW

We had a court order years ago that did not include Mothers and Fathers day. Our boys herewith me on Mothers day weekend and ex asked if she could have the boys on Mothers day. I looked at the calendar and Fathers day was on her weekend so I agreed provided she agreed to let me have our boys on Fathers day the same way we agreed to Mothers day. Sounds simple enough. She agreed. I picked the boys up at the agreed upon time on Fathers day. We went to see Kung Fu Panda at the movies. I shut my phone off. After the movie we drove back to my place. Along the way I turned my phone back on. I had several voicemails from ex saying she was waiting for me at my place. The messages got angrier and angrier. When we arrived she was still in the driveway. I got out of the car and tried talking to her. That was an effort in futility since she was already triggered and couldn't hear anything. I got back in the car and drove away. I circled around figuring she would leave but that didn't happen so I drove to the police station. I explained what was going on and asked the officer to call her. I had a copy of the email agreement which clearly stated the boys would be spending the night with me and I would be taking them to school the next day. The officer called and he got an earful. I knew because he pulled the phone away from his ear and held it at least 8 inches away. Finally the officer came back to me. He explained that this was a civil matter and since both boys appeared fine I would have to straighten things out with my ex or through our attorneys. He asked me if all my ducks were in a row. I said yes. He asked again. He told me to go home. I told him I would but would return if she was still in the driveway. As I pulled out of the lot I noticed ex was pulling into the lot. I went home, put the boys in bed, took them to school the next day.
A few days later ex sent me an email attacking me for my actions. I explained that I was following our email agreement and told her the date of the agreement so she could find it. She later replied that she didn't know why she agreed to such a thing.
There is no reasoning with unreasonable.
Document everything you can. Trust me you will get many unreasonable things to deal with along the way. Eventually I learned to accept it and not let it get to me. That takes time but it does happen. I still get emails attacking me but they are rare. Our youngest is 14 now so I still have time to go. This all started in 2007.

How far apart do you two live?  How many hours between homes?

I ask because there are times with far-apart parents when the court has to rule on which parent will be the Primary Parent.  The distance makes frequent exchanges impractical even under the best of circumstances.  I think there are 3 scenarios if frequent exchanges aren't practical... .

• One of you moves closer to the other parent.
• She becomes the Primary Parent and gets child support to aid her in paying for child expenses such as food, child care, etc.  There is a risk she would quit working so she could claim to be a caring mother, since she seems unable to work and parent at the same time for very long.  This would limit you to fewer visits, perhaps the major holidays and longer school breaks such as Winter Break, Spring Break and Summer Break (minus a few weeks for her to have vacations).
• You become the Primary Parent.  You might not get much child support if her income is low.  This would limit her to fewer visits, perhaps the major holidays and longer school breaks such as Winter Break, Spring Break and Summer Break (minus a few weeks for you to have vacations).  Of course her actually using that much parenting time would depend on how much her life is in turmoil.

As you see, living far apart makes frequent exchanges and scenarios such as equal parenting time impractical.  Once he's old enough for school, he will be registered with one school.  That rules out midweek or split-week schedules.  So who gets the lion's share of Mon-Fri parenting time?

Of course the last is best but one hurdle you have is to convince the court that you as the stable parent are able to handle work and parenting at the same time and is best for your child.  Many courts have a default preference for Mother, a leftover of past decades of Tender Years Doctrine favoring mothers.  Even if she has major issues, courts may have policies that give unwritten preference to mothers to be Primary Parent and that may put you in an uphill struggle.  Difficult but not impossible.

What is the goal of "making a concession" of giving summers to her?  What did you get out of it or what did that solve?

FF

Have you talked to your lawyer to see if jurisdictional issues are a concern?  Might she file an action near where she lives, possibly to give her an advantage?  Have you filed any actions to stake a claim in your local jurisdiction?

WW

Does she live in same state or different state? 

FF

Yes, everything is informal between uBPDstbxw and I.  Right now the court order is just that I have primary custody and she has visitation rights at my discretion.  There will be a custody hearing at some point soon.


This sounds great.  She hasn't hired an L yet due to lack of resources.  I'll be talking to mine this week about S5 and the summer.


7 hours


Honestly, it was mostly me just giving in to her every demand like I did when we were together.  I certainly don't want to remove S5 from her life completely, though.  And my L does encourage me to be nice to her so that all her claims that I'm this unreasonable monster are without merit.


My L filed a temporary custody order a few months ago which gives me primary custody for 12 months.  She has visitation rights at my discretion.  The time limit for her having him out of state was waived.  She hasn't filed anything.


Different state.

She lives in a different state.  Therefore don't let your court close the case.  Once there is no order in effect then she's free to file in her state.  (Six months residency is all it takes to file custody issues, as long as no orders exist elsewhere  You already know your state can issue sound orders even if temporary.  A court in her state may very likely minimize the legal history in your court case.  Then all your prior concern for her and fostering her relationship with your son will be gone with the wind, she could maneuver herself into the driver's seat.  This is from peer support, we're not lawyers with local legal advice.  Just beware that you don't sabotage yourself with your otherwise wonderful qualities and concerns.

Since you two live 7 hours apart, there's no way you can make exchanges twice a week or even once a week.  Have your lawyer describe what typical remote parenting schedules are like.  He will go to school in one parent's location.  That must be you as the Primary parent, considering her issues.  Typically the non-Primary parent gets the long school holidays (half or more of Winter Break, Spring Break and much of Summer Break).  Considering her situation, it sounds like she shouldn't have long periods of time over the summer.  Perhaps space out 3 visits, a week or each of June, July and August.  Whatever makes sense.  Just don't abdicate the entire summer.  Otherwise she may find incentive to enroll him in school where she lives and make court even more complicated.

Of course all this depends on the extent, if any, of her mental recovery.  If she contests the limited time, you can mention that the distance apart is a major factor in what schedule can work.

Ignore, I repeat, ignore any claims that Mother must be the one in charge.  Such claims are emotional ones, meaningless beyond their ability to 'guilt' you and weaken your resolve, you will have to hold to good boundaries for your child's sake.

I can't imagine that a summer there is in your son's best interest or in the best interest of your relationship with your son... .or the best interest of your court case.

How about a week there... .2 weeks back with you... .2 weeks with her (to see how it goes)... .couple back with you... .keep giving her a little more... assuming it goes ok.

Her lack of resources is not your issue... .about childcare... .about L... .whatever.

Make your son #1.  You are doing great things ... keep the focus on your son.

FF

A lot of us get into these relationships and have a hard time seeing the full, true extent of untreated mental illness and how it affects our parenting and our kids. If you grew up with untreated mental illness in your family of origin, you likely have a higher threshold to tolerate mental illness in others.

That tolerance can get passed down through parenting.

We pass that tolerance on to our kids.

Tolerance has to be combined with specific skills that are not intuitive and must be learned. That's how we raise emotionally resilient kids. It's how we become emotionally resilient ourselves.

Our crew here doesn't get the fairytale family where parents bond and stay happily together. We don't even get the fairytale divorce where parents set their differences aside and focus on what is best for the kids.

You're entering this new realm of family life where you have to protect your son from one of the most significant people he will love, or try to love. He will need help figuring out how to navigate abusive love.

During his time with you, help him with skill-building and developing emotional resilience so that he can practice those skills during limited periods with mom.

To help him with these skills, you will need to learn them first. Not easy, but the rewards are life changing -- the skills are effective in any relationship, including the one you have with yourself  :)


You have gone above and beyond nice in the eyes of court.

She is a grown-up. If she moved away, court will expect her to do what grown-ups do, which is to figure out how to see her son.

Nice means writing BIFF (brief, informative, friendly, formal) emails and agreeing to get S5 ready for her when she rolls into town to see him. It means giving her ample time to come pick up her stuff, or having someone come get it, before you donate it to goodwill. Nice means telling her that you are sorry to hear she's having car problems, and that you will come get S5, but that means you can't make it the time after that because gas is so expensive.

You don't have to make big sacrifices to be nice. You just have to be pleasant and set limits so that your needs are being met first, before hers. Your son will grow up seeing that it's ok to have healthy boundaries  :)

The current temporary order was for 12 months beginning this February, so fortunately I have some time.


My mom was bipolar.  It was treated, but she still had a few episodes when I was a kid, and it ultimately led to my parents' divorce when I finished high school.  So I'm sure I definitely picked up some unhealthy behaviors!


Thank you -- this is great stuff!

---

Yesterday, S5 and I came home to find that one of our cats had died suddenly and unexpectedly.  I called uBPDstbxw right after the vet -- it was one of the cats she was planning on taking as soon as she was able.

She blamed me, she blamed our vet, she blamed where I live, she blamed the fact that she wasn't there.  Everything except for whatever medical condition actually caused his death.  It's amazing how much more clearly I see her behavior now!

There is a strategic thing here... as well as practical one that you should keep in mind.  I would say that you need to have a new/replacement order in place by middle of October (there is still time)... .that gives some wiggle room for things to get delayed until Mid November.

With holidays and such... .you don't want to be dealing with the stress of getting it done... or trying to have the holidays with a big deadline looming soon after Holidays are done.

Something to think about... .plan for...

FF

Your cat reminds me of a story when ex and I were still together. We had a dog. She insisted you had to have a leash on him whenever you took him out. After a while I was able to take the leash off and he would stay with me. This went on for a few years. Ex still put a leash on him. One day when I was at work she called. I couldn't understand what she was saying because she was crying too much. I finally figured out that she let the dog out by himself. Well the dog got hit by a car. She felt guilty for a day and a half. After that she went to the township building and made a big stink about the speed limit on our street. It was 25 mph but she insisted more signs be installed and that the police set up a speed trap. It had to be someone elses fault. It took her a while to figure it out but she did. Guess, who in our house, got a speeding ticket from the speed trap. Priceless.

Dude... .that story makes the world seem right... .   |iiii

FF

People with BPD tend to have no brakes on intense emotions, so anything small (to non BPD people) feels massive to someone who has not learned how to brake.

It's so often not even about you.

With my ex, and now with my SO's D21, who is bipolar/BPD, I think of them getting on a roller coaster. I can get on with them or I can stay rooted on the ground.

Over time it gets easier to stay put on the ground.

It's better for everyone that way.