BPDFamily.com

Hey LJ.  It's becoming very predictable. She managed to weasel another extension today, until March 7 by stalling on dates for my children to see the "curator ad leitem" (children's wn advocate appointed by the court). The freight train just gets bigger and longer.

Was your ex sentenced for contempt or did she just get a warning?

How do you communicate with someone who is totally unreasonable?

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|---> Part 1: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=318277.0

This is why most of us are here.  For the most part we are kind and compassionate and want to see things work out for the best for everyone.  When it comes to communicating with unreasonable people you have to be an absolute master at people skills (which I am not).  I am still learning myself, but a few tricks that I have learned are to manipulate the BPD's way of thinking eg. I know what the BPD wants and feels and thinks, how about before I ask them for a "favor" I soften them up a little, tell them how smart/wonderful/pretty/exuberant they are.  Maybe I'll do this for two days straight.  Then I put in my request.  This court situation has probably thrown her into overdrive, I don't know anyway to back things down unless you are willing to give in on some request that you have. 

Maybe you can try to tell her how the contempt of court and stalling is really bad and you really care for her and want to see the best outcome for you, her and the children. 

No, my Ex received a fine which she never paid, and I wasn't interested in trying to enforce it because our kids were living w/her.

In the case of my BPDxW, I would submit that the best way to communicate w/her is to decline to react in knee-jerk fashion to drama and manipulations; instead, I delay any response and take time to figure out what I want to say, if anything.  Sometimes the best response is no response.  My Ex is good at crying wolf and likes to make mountains out of molehills.  The things that she considers "urgent" or "an emergency" are often of minor import, so I take what she says with a grain of salt.

LJ

Hey Moselle, what are you trying to communicate to your ex here?

It's easy to ruminate in these situations, I get it. You deserve support and validation.

It's also your responsibly to actively seek solutions to the problems that you perceive. We can help you with that, but a few more details might help all of us to productively navigate the situation. What do ya say?

Hey Valet. No rumination here. I feel nothing for my ex. Neither hatred nor kind feelings. Bearing in mind she is dangerous, physically violent and seriously abusive, I consider this indifference an achievement.

I share three girls with her and although there is no co-parenting possible, I am trying to find a place where civil communication regarding children is possible.

She currently sends messages through her husband, her father and the children. I am not interested in discussing my children with the father or husband. They are shall we say... .kooks  :-).

She has the husband telling me that "Moselle you don't exist". Literally to my face. I'm pretty sure I do exist  :) I'm the one in High Court and the reason your wife is facing potential fines/jail time for contempt of court.

So my ex is trying to convince herself, her husband and the children that  I don't exist. I do understand the BPD dynamic there. It is fascinating to witness actually.

How do I go from 'Mosellle doesnt exist" to civil communication regarding the children?

As the court tries to force her to communicate with me, is it worth it to try? I'm actually not even sure she is capable. Maybe I should just keep notes and show that incapability to the court and use it to take my children.

I see.

I think you have to do what's best for both yourself and the kids in this situation. Custody can be hard. Luckily, I've never had to deal with it myself, but some of the stories I've read here over the years have looked harrowing to say the least.

It might be best to keep yourself away from her mess and do what you need to do regarding custody in the eyes of the court. They're the ones pulling the strings here, so you'll need to look responsible (professional even). You don't have to meet her half way here. If she violates the courts orders she will jeopardize her own status with it.

What kind of stuff do you need to communicate with her about the kids? Arranging pick-ups, drop-offs, etc? And what is the custody situation?

Brain chemistry, it's a Disorder, not a choice.

Thanks Skip and AnuDay for pointing this out on executive function. I think it's easy to forget this one.

Like most everything here,  we have a thread on that  :)


What is meant by diminished executive function (poor executive control)? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79702.0;all)

The is Turkish! I'm going to revise the estimate of executive function my ex has. I didn't realise that it was basically the same as impulse control.

My ex has 0% of that!

Your actions are a choice,

marsha linehan you can feel like a mental patient, but you don't have to act like one.

I agree 100%. The last thing we should do to a Borderline or a Narcissist for that matter, is excuse them from their behaviour.

I just read Marsha Linehan's story... .wow!

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=all&referer=

My ex used the "but my parents' marriage!" To excuse her choices, even the DV in her next marriage.  At a certain point,  you want to say,  "grow up," yet there is some truth to both feelings.

As co-parents, we can acknowledge both truths,  the ultimate truth being like what my T told me once, that no matter how foolish her choices were,  she was free as an independent entity to make them. 

Translate that into their behaviors and then step back into realizing what's in our spheres to control (1st level) and influence (2nd level).

My ex angered me Saturday morning by changing plans at the last minute vis-a-vis the kids.  I kind of stormed out. Not my best response.  I could not,  however,  change her last minute decision.  So that left me with my anger and resentment, both emotions falling squarely in my court. 

I can recognise how frustrating that must have been! Well done for being so self aware. She's crossing a boundary no? Hence the anger ?

She missed the last session. I attended yet another workshop given by the school district to help educate parents on both common core and the new initiative "all students go to college." Then she went out of town to do "girls night out" with her sister and sisters-in-law. I have a lot of material from the school... .I texted a buddy about "GNO" and he said,  "I've heard of that crap." Cynical! There is one more weekend session for parents next month (it's on my weekend with the kids,  no excuses... .though this weekend was also,  and it had been arranged for her sister to watch them for a few hours... .on my time).  Hopefully she'll find time to attend.  She was all into transferring the kids from this school last year, but she's only partially engaging. We are the only primary school on the district running this program. Take it seriously, perhaps?

My challenge is not being resentful if she doesn't.  Her sister is a 100% time single mom.  SILs have babies but are married.  My ex is 50% a single parent, unlike them.  But I guess she needs the emotional release, and I need to accept it.  

Two nights,  no calls to the kids though I've told her so many times that it was fine to call them on my nights.  She only calls when she gets anxiety in her mind that something bad happened to them. I accept that she's clinically Dx'd with Anxiety, but it still elicits anger that she only calls on order to soothe her emotions. It is,  as they say,  how it is.  

I'll amend my previous post somewhat.  Yes part of it is a disorder, but jail time is relatively rare with BPD unless it is extreme.  Think something else is going on there that doesn't fit the typical, if there is one, BPD.  Bi-Polar, psychosis seems to be more likely.  Jail is not a place BPD like.

What I don’t understand is sometimes they do seem capible like in the beggining.

Thats a great point tiki! Which is an indication that they are capable of managing it.

When I met my ex, she was all of the good things and she kept that going for a  few years. She was reasonable then, however looking back, perhaps she was just mirroring  me? Any thoughts on that?

This was the idealisation phase of the relationship. Therafter she became increasingly incorrigible, self harming and then violent.

Never expect the court to automatically give consequences even to repeated bad behavior.  It may bend over backwards to give her yet another chance.  Your task is to let the consequences happen and not feel "overly fair" or "overly nice" to let the court allow her to skate without consequences.  The last thing they want to do is put a mother in jail or get a huge fine.

 :thought: If the court is waffling on whether to issue a fine but reluctant to make you a beneficiary, and your finances are okay, then one idea is to ask that any fines paid be placed in the children's education funds.  Or something like that.  That way neither parent wins or loses, the children end up benefiting at some future time.  However, if you've asked for her to pay the legal costs (legal costs are way higher than court costs) then that's okay too.

I recall that within weeks of our Final Decree she did not give written notice nor details of a vacation during Spring Break.  Actually, she commented Spring Break but she left for the week after Spring Break and son missed a week of school.  My lawyer said it was a slam dunk.  Well, the magistrate decided there was a technicality to make an exception for her.  She ruled Ex "was 'technically' not in Contempt" because the old temp order had ended and the new final order was too new to be enforceable.   So she violated both and got away with it.

I would be curious to know myself. I saw my person after a therapist appointment once and it was almost like he was caught between scripts. I think his counsler hears a different version of reality then I do. He actually told me at that time that he doesn’t blame me even though maybe he should. And I said you blame me all the time. You use blame to hurt me. And he said yeah but I don’t actually blame you. I asked how can you both admit that you blame me and say that you don’t really blame me? I think to his counsler he just tells her he doesn’t blame me. But yet to me he blames me. And then he doesn’t tell or admit to his counsler that he uses blame or says blaming things. But he cooks blame into the story (by twisting or distorting details) to blame me without showing the emotion of blame.

So I think he has a different script of things he tell me and that he tells other people. Of course it’s my personal belief that he manipulates his therapist by only telling what is going to give him the result he wants. But which script does he actually believe? He also says now that he never believed any of the angry things he says to me. But then he also twist reality too so... it’s not just that things he says but his whole idea of reality... that is used to show me as bad.

So he can appear reasonable because that is a good thing to appear to be. He also always came across like a great person. But I wasn’t aware of all the things that were distorted or omitted in order to create that impression.

So maybe your person also knows how to appear reasonable but maybe they were distorting reality all along to appear that way.

Can you update us all?

Sorry for getting off topic. Thanks for splitting it up!

Update: We had the court date on 6 Feb. With two contempt affidavits and the obstruction by her not presenting the children to the 'Curator ad Litem' (advocate appointed by the court to represent the children's interests). The judge showed annoyance and instructed her to take the children to the advocate as per his order and reinforced that the current order still stands. He stood the matter down until 7 March to await the report.

She is in breach again (third time) Refuses to respond to any communication with me. Her phone is blocked The children's phones are blocked. If i phone from an unrecognised number the husband answers pretending he can't hear me.

Last visitation weekend she picked up one of the children from school without informing me. So I stood waiting for her. I eventually went to her house and there she was. The other two were waiting at a different school.

She sent rambling letters to my lawyer on Thursday and Friday about me taking D8 to a specialist on my visitation weekend. No doctors name, nothing. She eventually gave me a doctor's name after about 10 emails through the lawyers but never to me directly. Turns out D8 is wetting  her bed after not seeing me for 8 months and she believes it's my problem to fix

She just does random crazy stuff with no communication - nothing.

Lawyers are annoyed dealing with petty crap (not to mention the expense)

I've decided not to triangulate with my lawyers now, so I communicate in the dark until March 7th

Another weekend coming up. Oh the drama!

On a better note. The girls are responding positively to me when I do see them. We're enjoying our time together

Help? The contempt of court case case has become a dog show.

The 'Curator Ad Litem' produced a 30 page report of her interview with my children outright lying about things I haven't done, from swearing and shouting at them, to trying to shower naked with my 8 year old, to not feeding them properly, to co-opting my children into arranging hook-ups with women on the beach. It's so ridiculously bizarre!. The problem is that the curator is a woman and concludes that I need monitoring and boundaries, and that the children should be allowed to determine if they should see their father or not. ie. D17 out, D13 out, and I get to see D8 only.

My advocate is calling for an adjournment of our March 7th date for BPD/NPD ex's contempt trial, to prepare our response to this damning and disturbing affidavit. I'm hoping this will backfire on my ex, as these are shocking fabrications. But I need to get the tone and response right in the reply.

It's so ridiculous to me but shocking to read the things my children have said, but the curator is taking it seriously and calling the family advocate irresponsible for recommending that the children see me unfettered.

Its clear that D17 is demonstating Borderline traits herself, by the ravenous lies and dyregulation. D13 is following her lead and D8 is getting roped in too, except D8 responded as follows: "When questioned about how the applicant is mean, D8 responded with: “I don’t really know”.

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/Childress.pdf

The Double-Bind Trap
However, if you   don’t defend yourself, then you’re admitting to the false allegations. If we “validate the child’s feelings” then we validate the false accusation that you are overly critical and   insensitive, when, in truth, it is the child who is hostile-provoking.      
But if you try to   clarify your innocence, then you    are seen as overly defensive, insensitive to the child, incapable of self-reflection, and as externalizing your own responsibility by criticizing your child, thereby validating by your very defense the allegations being made against you.

That’s the Trap: You’re damned   if you do (i.e., if   you accept the false accusation)   and you’re damned if you don’t (i.e., if you defend yourself against the false narrative).

I'm stuck in the double bind above. Help? Does anyone have any advice?

I'm feeling so disheartened. I'm wasting my life on this nonsense. When your child says I don't want to see you any more. Is there a point when you say "OK sweetheart I love you and goodbye"?

I'm so sorry to hear, Moselle, about your court case.  Yes, it's often a Lose/Lose proposition w/the kids, of which I'm quite familiar.  If I made efforts to see my kids, I was accused of "harassing" them; If I left them alone, I was "abandoning" them.  All you can do, in my view, is to stand in your truth and let the chips fall.  Yes, you will need to refute the fabrications.  Agree, it could backfire on your Ex.  Judges can be pretty savvy about recognizing when one party is out of line, which is why my Ex was found to be in contempt of court.

Hang in there and keep us posted.

LuckyJimj

Hang tight. I know it's shocking to see lies in print. Kids with a BPD parent do things for survival purposes.  

Only recently, your kids were acting affectionately toward you.

Can the reporter/advocate be cross-examined? Would she be willing to do a second interview after the kids have spent extended time with you, and is she familiar with pathogenic parenting, etc.

Have you had a chance to talk to your L?

I would ask your L what strategies and tactics are available to you, as a way to counter the claims. In my family law court, if I offered solutions, the court was very amenable. When my ex said that I endangered then S11's life (so many allegations... .) and exposed him to pedophiles, etc. blah blah blah, my L would refute the claim and then suggest something that would essentially shine more light on the situation. For example, propose family therapy for my son (both of us together, in addition to individual therapy), work with a parenting coordinator, etc. Your L may be able to suggest something -- BPD parents don't tend to like shining light on parenting behaviors, so perhaps proposing that both parties participate in proactive measures will give you therapeutic access to your kids. That may not work out so well for your ex.

It is hard to, in essence, call the children liars.  Possibly that's what would make the court or some professionals lean toward thinking ill of you.

The reality is that you want to describe this, not as kids lying, but as kids being severely influenced, pressured and even convinced to repeat stories that have little or no basis in fact.  Children facing a demanding, pressuring parent or ones taught to do anything to protect the misbehaving parent are known to lie so as not to offend the controlling or pressuring parent.

As for the kids, there is still a possibility that the children are not BPD or heading there.  They've had a lot of exposure to their BPD parent, whether diagnosed or not.  Can you look at it as though your children are infested with "BPD fleas"?  Can you hold out some hope that once influence from their poorly behaving parent that some of that BPD-ism will fade a bit?

If the children aren't in counseling and with a very experienced and perceptive counselor, then getting them into quality counseling is a high priority item.  A good counselor that is unlikely to be conned or fooled by unsubstantiated or contradictory claims is worth his or her weight in gold.  Just as this 'Curator Ad Litem' who didn't do a thorough enough job to get past the posturing and claims and determine the reality can virtually sink your case.  Remember, the counselor must be highly experienced and respected by the court, not just any counselor can be trusted to get to the truth.

Thanks all,

A short update. Yesterday was supposed to be her trial start. The curator's report last week reframed the whole proceeding and shifted the focus onto me. I need to re-frame it back to her. Any thoughts on how? Or do I just give her coils of rope and watch?

My advocate sought a postponement, so we can respond formally to the allegations. My ex opposed it, and proceeded to verbally assault my advocate outside court. 

Inside, the judge asked her why she opposed it. She said that I would retaliate against them this coming weekend because of the curators report, and that the children did not want to see me because of this. Of course I will show them added love and kindness! and not mention anything about the report.

But what she didn't say is maybe indicative. She didn't say that she believed that the children were in physical danger, or likely will be sexually abused as were made in the allegations. I think the judge was testing her for this. She failed the test!

The judge explained that I have a right of reply (as will she after my response) and postponed it to April 24th.


Thanks for the reality check. It was a quite a shock to see the things initially, and my initial response was "LIES"! What I've realised is that the narrative is the same as the one my ex made to the Family advocate in October. It will be easy to show that they are very similar. ie coaching, controlling pressuring by the ex. It's her narrative, not the children's. I have photos of us having fun too, so the two pictures don't add up.


For the younger two (D13 and D8) yes. D17 shows some major similarities, cruelty, dysregulation, splitting. I hope not, but my window of opportunity is closing for her. Sadly :-(


At my advocates suggestions, I've decided to go for a therapeutic option now. To help rebuild our relationship. I spoke to the psych, yesterday, she has experience with DBT, and offers forensic assessments as well. I asked for a therapeutic option now, and perhaps a forensic option with her mentor (a very good and court-respected forensic assessor) for 6 to 8 months time when I go for primary care. If the current proceedings do not yield a positive outcome.



Whew it was quite a shock, but after a few days it has worn off. They are not new allegations, my ex has made them before.

D17 is not affectionate at all. D13 tolerates it, but is slowly turning. D8 is all over me.


I haven't asked this. I'm wondering if it might be best to kind of yawn metaphorically, say these allegations are not new (point at the extensive family advocate investigation which was extensive and performed by qualified social work personnel), instead of going after a curator who clearly doesn't know what she's doing. What I don't want is the court to ask her to do further investigation of something she has no clue about. I need her gone as fast I can make her gone, or irrelevant at least.

If she interviews the children again before April 24th at my ex's request. (I have not doubt she will try, having done so well to convince her before) I will call foul. And you can be sure that I will record much of what happens minute by minute on my visitation weekends from now on, converting them into affidavit form on the monday including photos. I will also note the children's mood as they arrive and as the weekend progresses. Its always a steady improvement until they go back on Sunday


I did ask. She said get the children into therapy (which I am securing at present), and for goodness sake keep your nose clean on the weekends, not mentioning anything to the children.


I love this strategy. Thank you. I will arrange a parenting appointment with my ex in addition to the therapy, and see if she pitches. I can at least look like the one trying. If she comes, she will likely end up screaming and I think she knows it will show her up.


Thanks LJ. I'm realising that its rock and a hard place. The good news is that I am using the JiuJitsu parenting suggested by L&L. The allegations were mostly old or complete fabrications. I focus on "listening" and "being with". It's hard for children to get mad at that. And when they do I say, "Sorry you're feeling rough. I love you so much. If you need some time out we'll be right here OK?" then i carry on. Usually the one takes time out for 2 minutes and then comes back smiling to join in the fun. They don't like losing out when the others are having fun. I've learned to separate the one causing the problem, validate their feeling as normal, and carry on, otherwise the whole group becomes affected. I also reward and celebrate a 'change of state', when they return, helping them to understand fear, anger and sadness can change to happiness. You should hear D8. ":)ad I changed my state", with a big beaming smile :-) Those are priceless moments.

It sounds like you have this narrative already in place... .no?

Court saw that she was disallowing a relationship between you and the kids, and acted.
Then suddenly out of nowhere there are sexual abuse allegations and a new curator. Why now?
How much does the curator know about the October process?  


Yawn metaphorically  :)

This is similar to the approach we took in my case -- coupled with a demonstrated eagerness to shine lots of light on any concerns raised by my ex. When you do that, then the person with BPD has to argue against the proactive solutions that would actually solve the problem they are alleging. It looks very strange to argue against a reasonable solution. Who does that?

In your case, it might be more along the lines of, "Your honor, the timing of these false allegations, following on the heels of the court's order to reunite the children with dad, raise questions about the veracity of these claims. We recognize that they are an attempt to roll back the intensive and thorough court-ordered family assessments and subsequent ruling in favor of our client, done in October. The same assessment in which licensed, respected social workers concluded that it was not only safe but essential for the kids to reunite with dad. They have already lost x amount of time with their father. We propose family therapy for dad and girls, individual therapy for the girls, including DBT for any of the kids experiencing emotional dysregulations, and if it pleases the court, periodic visits from social workers to observe dad and girls, at the agency's discretion. We would like to propose that Ms. Ex also submits to parenting classes and individual therapy to work through unresolved trauma that may be preventing her from allowing a healthy relationship to exist between the girls and their dad."

I don't know if that would fly, but something like that.


Would you be willing to have a non-family member present? Someone who can attest that what you say did indeed happen? Or maybe even record the whole visit? Even as a prop, just saying that you have tape and are willing to share the entire thing with the court, that could send a message. In the theater of court, sometimes these gestures get the message across that we are not afraid to shine bright lights.

You want something watertight that you can fall back on in the event she makes another allegation. The chances seem high that there could be more.  Let's hope that doesn't happen. Maybe you can flip this narrative upside down and put the focus back on her, so that going to court is equated with tons and tons of sunshine on her issues.

That's why it might be strategic to raise the prospect that ex has unresolved trauma that is interrupting her ability to parent appropriately. I would only do this if you sense the court is leaning your way. My L made innuendos. "N/BPDx has a history of extreme parenting anxiety, which he has clearly documented, that frankly is worrisome from a mental health perspective, not only for himself but for the well-being of the minor child. N/BPDx has raised unsubstantiated concerns, of which I'll list only a handful: that the minor child is being exposed to pedophiles, child id being left home alone, is exposed to possible trampoline injuries, riding in cars without seatbelt, accidents at pool, riding bikes without helmets, playing with neighborhood kids without adults present, violent video games, being stranded at school, getting germs from other kids, suffering excessive tooth decay, dehydration while hiking with friends, bear attacks, taking doctor-recommended medication, going to the clinic where other sick children are present. Court is not equipped to help Mr. N/BPDx manage this level of parenting anxiety and we propose that he engages in individual therapy with a psychologist trained to help him manage his fears and learn how to appropriately channel his anxieties so that they do not adversely impact the minor child more than has already occurred."

Of course, I was blamed for not properly tending to these threats. We took that out of the equation. It was effective because ex was always in court with something or other, so the judge was familiar with the pattern.

It was at the last trial when my L proposed that ex stand in the light -- substance abuse treatment, anger management, parenting class, and psychiatric evaluation. Pending that evaluation, he could submit to ongoing treatment so his relationship with S16 could improve.

That kind of light was way too bright, and ex peeled off and went away. A different kind of trauma, but given the circumstances, it allows S16 to focus on older hurts instead of trying to manage ongoing ones.

My L was a really good litigator. Much better at litigating than paperwork   so she could pull off some effective performances in court.

I hope you have that, too.

Thanks for being there on this L&L, and everyone else who has supported me so much. I really appreciate you.

I'm reading this again thinking this is surreal. What a bizarre experience this is. I never even expected to see the inside of a court room, let alone fight my ex-wife, against her ridiculous charges in the High Court.

What a tangle I find myself in  



I like your logic. I will use it!

There are a few details which may help. Like the first judge saying "you are not a good mother", and subsequent evidence that has come to light that she lied to that judge in that 15 December hearing. Along with a further history of fraud and lies. (is this too much?)

The curator was dismissive of the family advocate saying she was remiss in allowing unsupervised contact and that I should attend anger management classes.  Fortunately I have my mom as a witness that here has been no shouting, nor discussions about the mother as alleged. In fact she has evidence that when there is a disagreement, I take them to a room, listen to them, calm them down, and exit to resume normal family time (ie that I have a calming influence on them). My sister has verified this in an affidavit as well.

On the contrary the mother riles them up and they make emotional, dysregulated, innacurate reports regarding the father to the curator. I can show this during my weekends as well when she phoned to scream at my mother.

I'm beginning to be grateful that I have exercised all my visitation at my mom and dad's place. I wanted a witness in case the sexual allegations returned. I was not wrong :-) :-) :-)

I was thinking of showing her narrative consistently for the last 3 years. and then highlighting the girl's responses to the curator being exactly the same as hers - shows coaching. Literally a table from all the reports generated so far. 4 columns showing her narrative "dad is lazy", "abusive", "sexually inappropriate". and compare it in the 4th column showing the consistency between hers and children's narrative and then tear the narrative apart with witnesses and character references. Thoughts?

And then, notwithstanding the narrative, the children's psych and the family advocate overruling it in favour of the father.  

Then segue into the piece you recommend below where we recommend treatment for her anxiety which is preventing the children from developing a relationship with their father, and is damaging to them generally.


Very clever!


I prefer this "metaphoric yawn" approach rather than a vigorous defense against the curator. Shall I make an addendum which refutes her report in detail and make highlights available in the body of the affidavit, whilst referring to the defense I describe above?
 

I didn't do this the last weekend, but will do so the next one in two weeks time. I took lots of happy pictures though.

good strategy


Yes. Do you think an addendum showing all of these irregularities is useful. And make reference in the text.


I get a different judge each time it seems. The one last week was very clear that this is a paper exercise on proven evidence and the high court rules on this alone. The last judge in December 15 seemed interested in what she had to say and then chewed her out. My ex failed to meet the court deadline for her opposing affidavit of 25 January, so she has no defense paperwork other than the curator's report. ie she fights everything through the children. Shall I highlight that she has burdened the children with "keeping her out of prison" instead of mounting her own defense of the contempt charges. She wrote to my lawyer once that "the only reason the children will see their father is to keep her out of prison"


I think showing the evidence of unreasonableness, contempt and shining alight on her unwillingness to look at solutions will lead them in that direction. Not sure my advocate can articulate this carefully enough.

Also my ex is prepared to stare at the sunlight and say it is not shining, rather than peel away from anything.


Mine is more thorough than articulate, but ironically that worked out quite well, when the judge on December 15th, took that role on himself with my ex.  :) :) :)

He was thorough enough to spend his lunch reading the affidavits and fam. advocate reports.

I'm happy at this stage to keep her on. They seem to place an emphasis on the paperwork in the high court. Thoughts?

Hey Moselle!

I wish I was offering greetings under better circumstances. 

Keep up the good fight... .it looks like the marathon will continue. 

Hang in there brother... .

FF

Moselle keep in the forefront of your mind the court is not concerned about right or wrong here,

only what is best for the children, if that means unfairly toasting you or your ex so be it,

the warfare is obviously damaging, and if your wife is willing to exploit it the courts might

expect you to be the bigger person, try not to get wrapped up in right or wrong but the path of least damage to the kids

i am suprised you didn't forsee this scenario to some extent, take some time an try and make sure you don't get sup[rised

again good luck.

Remember that the main narrative is mom is preventing you from having a relationship with the kids. Jujitsu parenting language in the Childress document may be your guide here.

You don't care if there is a history of fraud and lies. You care only about having a loving relationship with your kids. Communicating this skillfully is going to be key.



While this is a surprising and false allegation, you are willing to do anything the court recommends, and you have some suggestions of your own. Perhaps it is coparenting classes with your ex, or family therapy with the kids. I have read somewhere that BPD therapists recommend individual therapy for the child, family therapy for the unit, then couples therapy for parent/child, and even couples counseling for the parents. When there is BPD, it's a family systems issue. Maybe that's something you propose -- that level of openness and intent to heal. This way, you aren't denying the serious allegations, you are inviting the court to come into your personal lives and evaluate you directly, rather than hearsay from ex or the (coached) kids.


Third-party professionals are more believable than family members in my court. Might want to look into that in yours.


The tricky thing is that if her allegations were true, then being riled up and emotional makes sense. She is feeling protective that harm is coming to her kids.


Focus on solutions. Try to depersonalize this and think through how someone who doesn't know you and your family dynamics. When you propose solutions, think about consequences for non-compliance. Get the courts to think of you as an ally. Your problem is not being able to see the kids. Court's problem is that you guys keep coming back all the time. What solutions can you propose? What plan of action can be put in place so that you two can work toward a solution? Your ex is not going to allow the girls to attend therapy with you, we know that and you know that. Maybe you say to court, "My client proposes boat loads of therapy. He will pick three of reputable, highly trained psychologists, and mom can pick one. She has to pick by day/date, other Mr. Moselle will choose. The kids must attend these sessions. It is essential for their well-being to have a loving relationship with dad, as we mentioned in our last court appearance. We have concerns that these recent allegations and the coaching of the kids is a desperate and very harmful tactic intended to interrupt the original plan to reunite the kids with dad. This is our proposed solution so that dad is able to repair his relationship with the kids under the care of a trained therapist. We advise mom to attend her own individual session to better understand the impact of coaching the kids this way, and to agree to do family counseling with a therapist who has a 360 view of the whole family. Failure to comply signals to the court that mom is not able to consistently adhere to court orders, and is not supportive of a healthy, loving relationship between dad and kids. Etc."   


A lot of this is going to be about how you phrase things. Share parts here if you feel comfortable. Or paraphrase so people can see how you frame things.
 

A good question for an L. Again, I think your challenge is how to phrase things in a way that does not escalate the moselle vs. ex fight and focuses on repairing moselle and kids. That's going to take some finesse.


That's good, no? That way you can write and rewrite until you get it where you want it to be?

Run through and make a checklist on every paragraph to see if it emphasizes your loving relationship with the kids. If you need to refute the "evidence" of children's hearsay that you are abusive, then it's appropriate to point toward mom's coaching. "Mom's coaching can be seen in exhibit a, b, c, d, and e. Mom is willing to go to any extent to impair the kids from having a loving relationship with their dad. It is disturbing that these recent allegations follow the competent court-ordered evaluation that ruled favorably in dad's favor of reuniting with his kids. In exhibit b, mom is telling the kids that they need to do x otherwise dad will send mom to prison. This is simply one incidence of coaching and inappropriately burdening the minor children. What we propose is to revisit the original ruling and continue with the therapeutic reunification between dad and kids. We recommend lots and lots of therapy, with lots and lots of light, to shine sunshine all over these shadows, if it pleases the court. Dad is willing to pick three reputable psychologists so that the kids and dad can heal the estrangement and coaching that has impeded them from having a loving relationship with dad. We recommend mom gets therapy to help her learn appropriate ways of communicating with the kids and managing what appears to be exceptional levels of anxiety. We have concerns that mom will not be able to follow court orders. If she is not able to pick a psychologist by day/date, Mr. moselle will choose. Failure to comply with court orders will be grounds for xyz next legal thing."

Hi Moselle   

I just wanted to give my support here, and thank you for sharing how things have been going for you.

I haven't participated on the thread but I've learned a lot of tips from the discussion.

Your situation is definitely surreal. I don't often hear about family court, so I do think it's a bit bizarre too. In the rare cases court appears in my schedule, it gives me some anxiety.    So I join the others with the hang in there and I think the way you've been getting on is admirable.  :)

I hope things resolve peacefully for you.  :)

Email 7pm tonight before pick up's tomorrow from my ex

Please can you notify your client that due to a family emergency we have needed to take the girls out of CITY for the weekend. We sincerely apologize for the late change of weekend visitation and ask that Moselle resume contact with the girls on 13 April after the school holidays. He may have visitation for two weekends in a row (13th and 20th April) due to him missing this weekend. Please realise that this is out of our control and we apologize for this exception. Please encourage your client to send data to the girls so that he can Skype contact them during the week. He did promise to do this but never followed through. We do not have data at this time.

Regards,
Moselle ex wife

I phoned new hubby's ex wife. The "emergency" is a rugby tournament for their son, 2 hours away

Document, document, document.

It might be reasonable to request a trade if she didn't lie. 

Yes I too think a trade seems possible.  :) Perhaps not now but when it's more opportune for you--even if she did lie I think you still have a basis for a trade to get time that you want. E.g, if something is important to you and you want the kids for it.

Interested in others' thoughts.

Oh she lied. There is no emergency. They went on a trip. I phoned the brother of the husband who i know well. The kids don't speak to me.

Context is this is a pattern. And according to parenting plan, it's my Easter not hers

Oh, you're losing a holiday?  That's serious.  Courts put holidays above regular schedules and even above vacation time.

What you do about it, I don't know.  Assuming you're in USA, you could file Contempt of Court, but only after a failed holiday.  And you can't agree to replacement time or else it greatly weakens basis for Contempt of Court.  Since they didn't identify the emergency, then you have no way to know it is an emergency or not.  I don't know whether you ought to reveal to them that you are aware of the likely 'emergency'.  Ask your lawyer first on which are the "less bad" options for you.


Easter is April 1 this year, over a week away.  Which weekend do they want you to miss?  Does the current order contain or reference which holidays each parent gets?  (Yes according to your post.)  Be aware that the time period for the holiday may not include the entire weekend.  Does this mean they will make you miss a weekend in addition to the holiday?

Ask your lawyer about the Contempt of Court option.  It may be an opportunity to include documentation that this is a pattern.

Understand that the typical consequences for Contemp is jail, a fine or both.  Courts avoid consequences like the plague.  Does a judge want to send a mother to jail?  No, that's an empty threat except for the most extreme cases.  Levy a real fine?  Possibly but probably not.  Unless you've already won a series of Contempt cases, the most you may get is a judge looking for a way to excuse her and limit the decision to a mild finger wagging.  To make you be less of a potential "winner" and her a "loser" you may decide to file a Contempt motion, after the holiday is failed of course, and ask that any fines be paid toward an account that you have for the children's college or education fund.  That way the court can reason the kids are the winners and proceed with a decision with financial teeth.  And include a request that the court grant you her Easter holiday time next year as makeup time.

I ROFL'd at this. Thanks guys. I was thinking of those times when we want enforcement to do something but because of X reason, they can't get justice for us.

I told my ex that vacations superseded holidays. She's taking my easter. Have to dig out my order, though it's too late since I agreed.

ForeverDad, in the parenting plan I proposed a social worker do a 6 month check for the first two years after the divorce, which my ex's legal counsel has picked up on. Of course they all think that the social worker is going to take their side and ban Moselle to the sidelines. :) What they don't know is that I chose her very carefully, interviewed her, checking that she has alot of experience with personality disorders, and most importantly that she has a lot of credibility in the high court.

How should I speak to her?, What should I mention? What should I not say or do?

My thoughts:

- Be solution oriented
- Don't talk about BPD or NPD
- Show what I'm doing with the girls and what I'm working on.
- Be clear on the value I bring to their lives

When does that 6-month check occur? Do you reach out to her? How does this fit with the other stuff happening (like the recent allegations)?


Jujitsu parenting by Childress, especially the top part, has some good guidelines for how to approach these kinds of things.

Since the evaluator is aware of PDs, she might even drop hints and make it easy for you  

With the third-party professional involved in my case, I set aside adult-on-adult grievances and focused exclusively on then S12. I also asked for advice and used some phrases that were kind of keyword like. I used walking on eggshells, projecting, split black, triangulating, for example. I used them strategically and in moderation.

The six month check is long past, its been a year and 3 months since the divorce. I considered approaching her the other day, so this is serendipitous.

Yes I think the jiu jitsu intro is brilliant actually. I used it in my affidavit today.

Excellent idea - focus on the children and their development. I'm keen on that too. I'm actually looking forward to getting together with someone who understands this (eggshells, projecting, split black, triangulating)

I figure you know you can't just ignore the Elephant in the Room.  You also know a layman trying to Play Doctor doesn't impress the professionals.  Therefore yes it is fine to describe the unbalanced traits and poor behaviors you and your children face.  As you say, the professional already knows about the impact of acting-out PDs.  Blocking access without a solid basis to do so just screams "Something needs to be scrutinized and addressed here!"

   
   
Re: I didn't cave in today
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2015, 07:31:00 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote
Your partners goals will likely be to destroy you she will probably project that like her you will be easy to provoke an evoke a rash action for which she will be fully prepared to take advantage off

your goal is to love cherish and protect your kids ( not destroy your p ) if you can be seen as the victim here you will gain there sympathy tell them you are trying to work things out with there mum an make every efort to do so despite what is thrown at you ( remember your most important allies are your children if you deliberately hurt thier mum you will hurt them

p.s. i am guessing here but the thrust of what i am saying is clear i hope


here is a post wrote when this all started Moselle the gist is as true as ever.

Fortunately the family advocate picked up the "borderline traits" in the report from her psychiatrist from 3 years ago.
quote author=SlyQQ link=topic=321422.msg12952575#msg12952575 date=1522206401]
   
Your partners goals will likely be to destroy you she will probably project that like her you will be easy to provoke an evoke a rash action for which she will be fully prepared to take advantage off

your goal is to love cherish and protect your kids ( not destroy your p ) if you can be seen as the victim here you will gain there sympathy tell them you are trying to work things out with there mum an make every efort to do so despite what is thrown at you ( remember your most important allies are your children if you deliberately hurt thier mum you will hurt them

p.s. i am guessing here but the thrust of what i am saying is clear

[/quote]

Thanks slyQQ. That's great advice

A small update:

We are due to have a trial for her contempt of court, next Tuesday 24 April.

In trying to draft her opposing affidavit, her lawyer has approached my lawyer, with cap in hand saying actually they have no defense, my ex is "naive" about the seriousness of the charges, and could we settle out of court?

Of course after spending massive amounts of time and money, to get here I am both angry at the damage to the children, but excited at having a very favourable negotiating position.

I naturally want to secure as much as possible in the 'deal', as well as set her up to get full custody when she goes into contempt again

Some options to negotiate are (please give me your thoughts on these or any other things I might ask for):

1. Agree to $X cost order for lawyer's fees.
2. Agree to an order by consent of ‘Guilty’ to charges of contempt of court. With a suspended sentence, and an agreement to pay $X in to a fund administered by me for the tertiary education of the children,  should she breach the terms and conditions of the order.
3. Agree to rescind accusations against me of sexual impropriety towards her and the children.
4. Agree to compensate for the the 10 months of no contact, taking Easter 2018 and Christmas 2017, with the children, by relinquishing her next Easter, and Christmas. i.e. 2018 Christmas, 2019 Easter, 2019 Christmas, and 2020 Easter, whereafter it reverts back to alternate years.
5. Agree to attend a 10 week parenting course for divorced parents with me at FAMSA or alternative provider.
6. Agree to pay for social worker to do 6 month, evaluations starting immediately to determine the emotional health of the children in her care.
7. Agree not to attempt to leave the country with the children for whatever reasons, until D9 is 18 at which point all the children can make an independent decision to stay or leave the country.
8. Consent to 50/50 care of the children within 3 months.

Its important for me, and for future court appearances that she repair the reputation damage against me (otherwise she will bring up the same lies and accusations again with another judge):

9. Agree to write a confession that she committed domestic, emotional and psychological violence against me during the last 5 years of our 15 year marriage, and in order to conceal this, co-opted her family and various friends, to engage in a verbal and social media smear campaign against me including that I,
-   abused her during our marriage,  
-   behaved improperly towards the children,
-   that I had been diagnosed by a psychologist with a mental disorder and sex addiction, and that this was done to secure help in kidnapping my children from our home
-   And in order to secure financial assistance from others, as a victim of abuse.

10. Apologise to the children or the damage caused. Agree to work with me to ensure that the children recover effectively.

Any thoughts?

Regards,
Moselle

This, I believe, is your center of gravity... .the most important thing.

I would recommend you take a settlement out of court, because you have the most flexibility there.  Note:  Only if you get "your bare minimums" or better.

The thing is, you really never know what a judge will do, you do know what is in the settlement.

More in a bit.

FF

Full custody? you may want to ask the children , gently , what they think.

you may ,if careful have the oppertunity to be the bigger person here, to everyones benefit


don't squander it.

 

  very favourable negotiating position.

I naturally want to secure as much as possible in the 'deal', as well as set her up to get full custody when she goes into contempt again

Some options to negotiate are (please give me your thoughts on these or any other things I might ask for):

1. Agree to $X cost order for lawyer's fees.  (are you hurting for money?  I would put this in there as a consequence or any further deviations from court order.  So the amount would be set and if she doesn't perform, she owes.  Think about how you are incentivizing).
 
2. Agree to an order by consent of ‘Guilty’ to charges of contempt of court. With a suspended sentence, and an agreement to pay $X in to a fund administered by me for the tertiary education of the children,  should she breach the terms and conditions of the order.  (I think this is number 2 priority.  I don't think I would take a deal without this)

3. Agree to rescind accusations against me of sexual impropriety towards her and the children. (number 1... .have the children backed this up or is it just the Mom.  What you don't want is for her to back down and others to start making accusations)


4. Agree to compensate for the the 10 months of no contact, taking Easter 2018 and Christmas 2017, with the children, by relinquishing her next Easter, and Christmas. i.e. 2018 Christmas, 2019 Easter, 2019 Christmas, and 2020 Easter, whereafter it reverts back to alternate years.  (number 3 priority.)


5. Agree to attend a 10 week parenting course for divorced parents with me at FAMSA or alternative provider.

6. Agree to pay for social worker to do 6 month, evaluations starting immediately to determine the emotional health of the children in her care. (again... .if you are not hurting for money, perhaps you split the bill.  I'm more interested in this being done, rather than who pays for it.)

7. Agree not to attempt to leave the country with the children for whatever reasons, until Sophie is 18 at which point all the children can make an independent decision to stay or leave the country. (I would change this to you have veto power over leaving country)


8. Consent to 50/50 care of the children within 3 months.  (I would need more information here... .what is current split in the decree... why wait three months)

Its important for me, and for future court appearances that she repair the reputation damage against me (otherwise she will bring up the same lies and accusations again with another judge): (this is tied to the sex allegations... .clearly number 1)

9. Agree to write a confession that she committed domestic, emotional and psychological violence against me during the last 5 years of our 15 year marriage, and in order to conceal this, co-opted her family and various friends, to engage in a verbal and social media smear campaign against me including that I,
-   abused her during our marriage,  
-   behaved improperly towards the children,
-   that I had been diagnosed by a psychologist with a mental disorder and sex addiction, and that this was done to secure help in kidnapping my children from our home
-   And in order to secure financial assistance from others, as a victim of abuse.

(If you can get the confessions... that is great.  I can't imagine a lawyer would let her do this.)

10. Apologise to the children or the damage caused. Agree to work with me to ensure that the children recover effectively.  (I get the thought, but it has to be written and enforceable.  Much better to have her "comply" with Psychologists directives... etc etc)

To me the focus needs to be on your relationship with your kids and getting that back on track.

You have posted a lot here about righting the wrongs of your ex's false allegations, getting her to pay your court fees, getting a confession out of her. (trying to punish her or to get justice from injustice) I completely understand your frustration, anger and the injustice of all of this stuff, but you are divorced... .she's gonna say and do what she is gonna say and do. The relationship between you is over.

As I see it the relationship you need to repair is the one with your kids.  Use this leverage to get your time with your kids (and make up time), maybe request therapy for you and them. Keep your focus where it should be on seeing your kids.

Panda39

 

Wow! What a turn of events.


Her L is aware there is no defense, but your ex is not. There's a whole world of potential high conflict behaviors in that comment. She is dysregulated. You will have to do the thinking for both parties.

Has your L had a chance to explain (to you) what options your ex has, and what consequences are in play?

Knowing that might help you decide whether it is better to go before a judge.

Not because court is better than settling, only that your ex seems wily and desperate right now. In that state of mind, what might she do? She probably feels cornered. I would be thinking about that at the same time you are thinking about these negotiations.

If she strings things along to the final hour, do you lose the 4/24 trial date, and if so, what happens next? How long before it could be scheduled again?

If your ex does not appear for court, what happens next?

What happens if you take her to court and she is found in contempt of court by a judge?


Again, don't forget about what she may be experiencing right now. *Naive* seems to be a euphemism for something else. She may be projecting her own unresolved sexual abuse trauma onto the girls, and with feelings = facts, it could be very real to her. She may think her L and the judge just don't get it. Her thought process may be more like, No one is going to protect my babies, so I will.  


Can you simply say that another contempt of court barring the kids from seeing you, or filing frivolous motions will create favorable conditions for her losing custody? Or stronger wording.  


Seems reasonable to ask. Be prepared to not see this money. Or to be required to file a contempt of court to get it, spending money to get money.


Does family law court do "guilty" where you live? I don't believe that's a thing where I live, but maybe it's different there.


What does that mean in practice? Where I live, if the case is dropped, that would mean there is no case. Are you asking for an apology letter?


Knowing what the last 10 months have been like, is she likely to agree and then not follow through? What consequences would there be for non-compliance?


Do you really want to do that together?


I can see where you're coming from with this. Whenever I wrote something up, I always made sure I could enforce it, or that it had consequences for non-compliance. If you are more concerned about knowing the emotional health of the kids than you are about the money, this might change how you go about doing this.


Again, probably better to have a consequence for non-compliance because agreements aren't worth much at this point. Then see if you can set up an alert system for the kids' passports, if that exists where you live. Put their names in the data base and flag them so that there are arrows pointing to the court order. Then have a consequence that you will get full custody if she is found in contempt, or whatever seems reasonable to you.


Same point as above. She hasn't been in compliance prior to this, she will probably fall into old patterns. Also, you will want to add the additional time you mentioned above, so it will be 50/50 plus whatever extra holidays you get.


You would probably have to write it and then there would be back and forth between Ls, tweaking language, so that she signs it.

She may tell the kids she was forced to do it (you're a bully) so that they didn't take the kids away from her.


It seems like you still have some faith that she can be rehabilitated and made to listen to reason.

Maybe she is not as disordered as my ex, but the point that you are now at is about when I began to structure everything so that even when my ex did not comply, I still came out ahead.

It takes a little extra work to get things tightened up, but it's worth it.

You and the courts are now working together to find solutions, to keep the two of you out of court. That means structuring the orders so that even if she is in non-compliance on most things, you have a map for how to handle it. If she does a, you do b. If she does not do c, you do d.

Be really, really specific in the language, and make it watertight if you can.

Use this to your advantage.  Your original "offer" to settle should like scare her to death... .increase pressure... .increase cornered... .

What you will actually "settle" for should be great for you... .and provide her some relief.

I would make sure you completely understand from your L the likely outcome of actually going to trial.

Big picture:  Use your knowledge of the psychological situation to your advantage, which, I believe, is more instead of less pressure.  Until you are really ready to settle.

FF

FF, I'm surprised to hear you say that.

She's mentally ill. She makes terrible decisions for her kids and for herself when she feels threatened or desperate. These decisions have serious consequences for Moselle, and for his kids.

During my 4 years in court, there were two cases when desperate defendants shot the other parent. They felt they were losing their kids and losing their footing in family law court.

Some desperate parents leave the country with the kids.

The judge in my case always treated my ex with respect, even when my ex accused the judge of lying. The judge also had an extra bailiff in our court whenever we had a hearing.

His respect helped de-escalate and his protective instincts were pro-active.

My comment about her feeling cornered is not to escalate, it's to de-escalate.

Moselle can focus on solutions by structuring the order in a way that works effectively whether she complies or not.

What is her behavior in court?  How does she respond to the pressure of a courtroom and judge?

*mod*

This thread has reached its posting limit and is now locked. The thread has been split, and you can find Part 3 located here (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=324206.msg12960013#msg12960013). Thank you for your participation.