I have taken my ex to high-court yesterday to get access to my children. (Part2)

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hey LJ.  It's becoming very predictable. She managed to weasel another extension today, until March 7 by stalling on dates for my children to see the "curator ad leitem" (children's wn advocate appointed by the court). The freight train just gets bigger and longer.

Was your ex sentenced for contempt or did she just get a warning?

How do you communicate with someone who is totally unreasonable?

Part 1: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=318277.0

[Moselle]

Hey LJ.  It's becoming very predictable. She managed to weasel another extension today, until March 7 by stalling on dates for my children to see the "curator ad leitem" (children's wn advocate appointed by the court). The freight train just gets bigger and longer.

Was your ex sentenced for contempt or did she just get a warning?

How do you communicate with someone who is totally unreasonable?

Part 1: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=318277.0

[AnuDay]

Hey LJ.  It's becoming very predictable. She managed to weasel another extension today, until March 7 by stalling on dates for my children to see the "curator ad leitem" (children's wn advocate appointed by the court). The freight train just gets bigger and longer.

Was your ex sentenced for contempt or did she just get a warning?

How do you communicate with someone who is totally unreasonable?

This is why most of us are here.  For the most part we are kind and compassionate and want to see things work out for the best for everyone.  When it comes to communicating with unreasonable people you have to be an absolute master at people skills (which I am not).  I am still learning myself, but a few tricks that I have learned are to manipulate the BPD's way of thinking eg. I know what the BPD wants and feels and thinks, how about before I ask them for a "favor" I soften them up a little, tell them how smart/wonderful/pretty/exuberant they are.  Maybe I'll do this for two days straight.  Then I put in my request.  This court situation has probably thrown her into overdrive, I don't know anyway to back things down unless you are willing to give in on some request that you have. 

Maybe you can try to tell her how the contempt of court and stalling is really bad and you really care for her and want to see the best outcome for you, her and the children. 

[Lucky Jim]

Was your ex sentenced for contempt or did she just get a warning?

How do you communicate with someone who is totally unreasonable?

No, my Ex received a fine which she never paid, and I wasn't interested in trying to enforce it because our kids were living w/her.

In the case of my BPDxW, I would submit that the best way to communicate w/her is to decline to react in knee-jerk fashion to drama and manipulations; instead, I delay any response and take time to figure out what I want to say, if anything.  Sometimes the best response is no response.  My Ex is good at crying wolf and likes to make mountains out of molehills.  The things that she considers "urgent" or "an emergency" are often of minor import, so I take what she says with a grain of salt.

LJ

[valet]

Hey Moselle, what are you trying to communicate to your ex here?

It's easy to ruminate in these situations, I get it. You deserve support and validation.

It's also your responsibly to actively seek solutions to the problems that you perceive. We can help you with that, but a few more details might help all of us to productively navigate the situation. What do ya say?

[Moselle]

Hey Moselle, what are you trying to communicate to your ex here?

Hey Valet. No rumination here. I feel nothing for my ex. Neither hatred nor kind feelings. Bearing in mind she is dangerous, physically violent and seriously abusive, I consider this indifference an achievement.

I share three girls with her and although there is no co-parenting possible, I am trying to find a place where civil communication regarding children is possible.

She currently sends messages through her husband, her father and the children. I am not interested in discussing my children with the father or husband. They are shall we say... .kooks  :-).

She has the husband telling me that "Moselle you don't exist". Literally to my face. I'm pretty sure I do exist   I'm the one in High Court and the reason your wife is facing potential fines/jail time for contempt of court.

So my ex is trying to convince herself, her husband and the children that  I don't exist. I do understand the BPD dynamic there. It is fascinating to witness actually.

How do I go from 'Mosellle doesnt exist" to civil communication regarding the children?

As the court tries to force her to communicate with me, is it worth it to try? I'm actually not even sure she is capable. Maybe I should just keep notes and show that incapability to the court and use it to take my children.

[valet]

I see.

I think you have to do what's best for both yourself and the kids in this situation. Custody can be hard. Luckily, I've never had to deal with it myself, but some of the stories I've read here over the years have looked harrowing to say the least.

It might be best to keep yourself away from her mess and do what you need to do regarding custody in the eyes of the court. They're the ones pulling the strings here, so you'll need to look responsible (professional even). You don't have to meet her half way here. If she violates the courts orders she will jeopardize her own status with it.

What kind of stuff do you need to communicate with her about the kids? Arranging pick-ups, drop-offs, etc? And what is the custody situation?

[Bo123]

Brain chemistry, it's a Disorder, not a choice.

[gotbushels]

AnuDay is right.  And there is also, often, a resentment of authority (ties back to their parental relationships).

Thanks Skip and AnuDay for pointing this out on executive function. I think it's easy to forget this one.

[Turkish]

Like most everything here,  we have a thread on that 


What is meant by diminished executive function (poor executive control)?

[Moselle]

Like most everything here,  we have a thread on that 


What is meant by diminished executive function (poor executive control)?

The is Turkish! I'm going to revise the estimate of executive function my ex has. I didn't realise that it was basically the same as impulse control.

My ex has 0% of that!

[SlyQQ]

Brain chemistry, it's a Disorder, not a choice.

Your actions are a choice,

marsha linehan you can feel like a mental patient, but you don't have to act like one.

[Moselle]

Your actions are a choice,

marsha linehan you can feel like a mental patient, but you don't have to act like one.

I agree 100%. The last thing we should do to a Borderline or a Narcissist for that matter, is excuse them from their behaviour.

I just read Marsha Linehan's story... .wow!

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=all&referer=

[Turkish]

My ex used the "but my parents' marriage!" To excuse her choices, even the DV in her next marriage.  At a certain point,  you want to say,  "grow up," yet there is some truth to both feelings.

As co-parents, we can acknowledge both truths,  the ultimate truth being like what my T told me once, that no matter how foolish her choices were,  she was free as an independent entity to make them. 

Translate that into their behaviors and then step back into realizing what's in our spheres to control (1st level) and influence (2nd level).

My ex angered me Saturday morning by changing plans at the last minute vis-a-vis the kids.  I kind of stormed out. Not my best response.  I could not,  however,  change her last minute decision.  So that left me with my anger and resentment, both emotions falling squarely in my court. 

[Moselle]

My ex angered me Saturday morning by changing plans at the last minute vis-a-vis the kids.  I kind of stormed out. Not my best response.  I could not,  however,  change her last minute decision.  So that left me with my anger and resentment, both emotions falling squarely in my court.  

I can recognise how frustrating that must have been! Well done for being so self aware. She's crossing a boundary no? Hence the anger ?

[Turkish]

She missed the last session. I attended yet another workshop given by the school district to help educate parents on both common core and the new initiative "all students go to college." Then she went out of town to do "girls night out" with her sister and sisters-in-law. I have a lot of material from the school... .I texted a buddy about "GNO" and he said,  "I've heard of that crap." Cynical! There is one more weekend session for parents next month (it's on my weekend with the kids,  no excuses... .though this weekend was also,  and it had been arranged for her sister to watch them for a few hours... .on my time).  Hopefully she'll find time to attend.  She was all into transferring the kids from this school last year, but she's only partially engaging. We are the only primary school on the district running this program. Take it seriously, perhaps?

My challenge is not being resentful if she doesn't.  Her sister is a 100% time single mom.  SILs have babies but are married.  My ex is 50% a single parent, unlike them.  But I guess she needs the emotional release, and I need to accept it.  

Two nights,  no calls to the kids though I've told her so many times that it was fine to call them on my nights.  She only calls when she gets anxiety in her mind that something bad happened to them. I accept that she's clinically Dx'd with Anxiety, but it still elicits anger that she only calls on order to soothe her emotions. It is,  as they say,  how it is.  

[Bo123]

I'll amend my previous post somewhat.  Yes part of it is a disorder, but jail time is relatively rare with BPD unless it is extreme.  Think something else is going on there that doesn't fit the typical, if there is one, BPD.  Bi-Polar, psychosis seems to be more likely.  Jail is not a place BPD like.

[tiki]

What I don’t understand is sometimes they do seem capible like in the beggining.

[Moselle]

What I don’t understand is sometimes they do seem capible like in the beggining.

Thats a great point tiki! Which is an indication that they are capable of managing it.

When I met my ex, she was all of the good things and she kept that going for a  few years. She was reasonable then, however looking back, perhaps she was just mirroring  me? Any thoughts on that?

This was the idealisation phase of the relationship. Therafter she became increasingly incorrigible, self harming and then violent.

[ForeverDad]

Never expect the court to automatically give consequences even to repeated bad behavior.  It may bend over backwards to give her yet another chance.  Your task is to let the consequences happen and not feel "overly fair" or "overly nice" to let the court allow her to skate without consequences.  The last thing they want to do is put a mother in jail or get a huge fine.

  If the court is waffling on whether to issue a fine but reluctant to make you a beneficiary, and your finances are okay, then one idea is to ask that any fines paid be placed in the children's education funds.  Or something like that.  That way neither parent wins or loses, the children end up benefiting at some future time.  However, if you've asked for her to pay the legal costs (legal costs are way higher than court costs) then that's okay too.

I recall that within weeks of our Final Decree she did not give written notice nor details of a vacation during Spring Break.  Actually, she commented Spring Break but she left for the week after Spring Break and son missed a week of school.  My lawyer said it was a slam dunk.  Well, the magistrate decided there was a technicality to make an exception for her.  She ruled Ex "was 'technically' not in Contempt" because the old temp order had ended and the new final order was too new to be enforceable.   So she violated both and got away with it.

[tiki]

Thats a great point tiki! Which is an indication that they are capable of managing it.

When I met my ex, she was all of the good things and she kept that going for a  few years. She was reasonable then, however looking back, perhaps she was just mirroring  me? Any thoughts on that?

This was the idealisation phase of the relationship. Therafter she became increasingly incorrigible, self harming and then violent.

I would be curious to know myself. I saw my person after a therapist appointment once and it was almost like he was caught between scripts. I think his counsler hears a different version of reality then I do. He actually told me at that time that he doesn’t blame me even though maybe he should. And I said you blame me all the time. You use blame to hurt me. And he said yeah but I don’t actually blame you. I asked how can you both admit that you blame me and say that you don’t really blame me? I think to his counsler he just tells her he doesn’t blame me. But yet to me he blames me. And then he doesn’t tell or admit to his counsler that he uses blame or says blaming things. But he cooks blame into the story (by twisting or distorting details) to blame me without showing the emotion of blame.

So I think he has a different script of things he tell me and that he tells other people. Of course it’s my personal belief that he manipulates his therapist by only telling what is going to give him the result he wants. But which script does he actually believe? He also says now that he never believed any of the angry things he says to me. But then he also twist reality too so... it’s not just that things he says but his whole idea of reality... that is used to show me as bad.

So he can appear reasonable because that is a good thing to appear to be. He also always came across like a great person. But I wasn’t aware of all the things that were distorted or omitted in order to create that impression.

So maybe your person also knows how to appear reasonable but maybe they were distorting reality all along to appear that way.

[Skip]

What kind of stuff do you need to communicate with her about the kids? Arranging pick-ups, drop-offs, etc? And what is the custody situation?

Can you update us all?

[Moselle]

Can you update us all?

Sorry for getting off topic. Thanks for splitting it up!

Update: We had the court date on 6 Feb. With two contempt affidavits and the obstruction by her not presenting the children to the 'Curator ad Litem' (advocate appointed by the court to represent the children's interests). The judge showed annoyance and instructed her to take the children to the advocate as per his order and reinforced that the current order still stands. He stood the matter down until 7 March to await the report.

She is in breach again (third time) Refuses to respond to any communication with me. Her phone is blocked The children's phones are blocked. If i phone from an unrecognised number the husband answers pretending he can't hear me.

Last visitation weekend she picked up one of the children from school without informing me. So I stood waiting for her. I eventually went to her house and there she was. The other two were waiting at a different school.

She sent rambling letters to my lawyer on Thursday and Friday about me taking D8 to a specialist on my visitation weekend. No doctors name, nothing. She eventually gave me a doctor's name after about 10 emails through the lawyers but never to me directly. Turns out D8 is wetting  her bed after not seeing me for 8 months and she believes it's my problem to fix

She just does random crazy stuff with no communication - nothing.

Lawyers are annoyed dealing with petty crap (not to mention the expense)

I've decided not to triangulate with my lawyers now, so I communicate in the dark until March 7th

Another weekend coming up. Oh the drama!

On a better note. The girls are responding positively to me when I do see them. We're enjoying our time together

[Moselle]

Help? The contempt of court case case has become a dog show.

The 'Curator Ad Litem' produced a 30 page report of her interview with my children outright lying about things I haven't done, from swearing and shouting at them, to trying to shower naked with my 8 year old, to not feeding them properly, to co-opting my children into arranging hook-ups with women on the beach. It's so ridiculously bizarre!. The problem is that the curator is a woman and concludes that I need monitoring and boundaries, and that the children should be allowed to determine if they should see their father or not. ie. D17 out, D13 out, and I get to see D8 only.

My advocate is calling for an adjournment of our March 7th date for BPD/NPD ex's contempt trial, to prepare our response to this damning and disturbing affidavit. I'm hoping this will backfire on my ex, as these are shocking fabrications. But I need to get the tone and response right in the reply.

It's so ridiculous to me but shocking to read the things my children have said, but the curator is taking it seriously and calling the family advocate irresponsible for recommending that the children see me unfettered.

Its clear that D17 is demonstating Borderline traits herself, by the ravenous lies and dyregulation. D13 is following her lead and D8 is getting roped in too, except D8 responded as follows: "When questioned about how the applicant is mean, D8 responded with: “I don’t really know”.

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/Childress.pdf

The Double-Bind Trap
However, if you   don’t defend yourself, then you’re admitting to the false allegations. If we “validate the child’s feelings” then we validate the false accusation that you are overly critical and   insensitive, when, in truth, it is the child who is hostile-provoking.      
But if you try to   clarify your innocence, then you    are seen as overly defensive, insensitive to the child, incapable of self-reflection, and as externalizing your own responsibility by criticizing your child, thereby validating by your very defense the allegations being made against you.

That’s the Trap: You’re damned   if you do (i.e., if   you accept the false accusation)   and you’re damned if you don’t (i.e., if you defend yourself against the false narrative).

I'm stuck in the double bind above. Help? Does anyone have any advice?

I'm feeling so disheartened. I'm wasting my life on this nonsense. When your child says I don't want to see you any more. Is there a point when you say "OK sweetheart I love you and goodbye"?

[Lucky Jim]

I'm so sorry to hear, Moselle, about your court case.  Yes, it's often a Lose/Lose proposition w/the kids, of which I'm quite familiar.  If I made efforts to see my kids, I was accused of "harassing" them; If I left them alone, I was "abandoning" them.  All you can do, in my view, is to stand in your truth and let the chips fall.  Yes, you will need to refute the fabrications.  Agree, it could backfire on your Ex.  Judges can be pretty savvy about recognizing when one party is out of line, which is why my Ex was found to be in contempt of court.

Hang in there and keep us posted.

LuckyJimj

[livednlearned]

Hang tight. I know it's shocking to see lies in print. Kids with a BPD parent do things for survival purposes.  

Only recently, your kids were acting affectionately toward you.

Can the reporter/advocate be cross-examined? Would she be willing to do a second interview after the kids have spent extended time with you, and is she familiar with pathogenic parenting, etc.

Have you had a chance to talk to your L?

I would ask your L what strategies and tactics are available to you, as a way to counter the claims. In my family law court, if I offered solutions, the court was very amenable. When my ex said that I endangered then S11's life (so many allegations... .) and exposed him to pedophiles, etc. blah blah blah, my L would refute the claim and then suggest something that would essentially shine more light on the situation. For example, propose family therapy for my son (both of us together, in addition to individual therapy), work with a parenting coordinator, etc. Your L may be able to suggest something -- BPD parents don't tend to like shining light on parenting behaviors, so perhaps proposing that both parties participate in proactive measures will give you therapeutic access to your kids. That may not work out so well for your ex.

[ForeverDad]

It is hard to, in essence, call the children liars.  Possibly that's what would make the court or some professionals lean toward thinking ill of you.

The reality is that you want to describe this, not as kids lying, but as kids being severely influenced, pressured and even convinced to repeat stories that have little or no basis in fact.  Children facing a demanding, pressuring parent or ones taught to do anything to protect the misbehaving parent are known to lie so as not to offend the controlling or pressuring parent.

As for the kids, there is still a possibility that the children are not BPD or heading there.  They've had a lot of exposure to their BPD parent, whether diagnosed or not.  Can you look at it as though your children are infested with "BPD fleas"?  Can you hold out some hope that once influence from their poorly behaving parent that some of that BPD-ism will fade a bit?

If the children aren't in counseling and with a very experienced and perceptive counselor, then getting them into quality counseling is a high priority item.  A good counselor that is unlikely to be conned or fooled by unsubstantiated or contradictory claims is worth his or her weight in gold.  Just as this 'Curator Ad Litem' who didn't do a thorough enough job to get past the posturing and claims and determine the reality can virtually sink your case.  Remember, the counselor must be highly experienced and respected by the court, not just any counselor can be trusted to get to the truth.

[Moselle]

Thanks all,

A short update. Yesterday was supposed to be her trial start. The curator's report last week reframed the whole proceeding and shifted the focus onto me. I need to re-frame it back to her. Any thoughts on how? Or do I just give her coils of rope and watch?

My advocate sought a postponement, so we can respond formally to the allegations. My ex opposed it, and proceeded to verbally assault my advocate outside court. 

Inside, the judge asked her why she opposed it. She said that I would retaliate against them this coming weekend because of the curators report, and that the children did not want to see me because of this. Of course I will show them added love and kindness! and not mention anything about the report.

But what she didn't say is maybe indicative. She didn't say that she believed that the children were in physical danger, or likely will be sexually abused as were made in the allegations. I think the judge was testing her for this. She failed the test!

The judge explained that I have a right of reply (as will she after my response) and postponed it to April 24th.

It is hard to, in essence, call the children liars.  Possibly that's what would make the court or some professionals lean toward thinking ill of you.

The reality is that you want to describe this, not as kids lying, but as kids being severely influenced, pressured and even convinced to repeat stories that have little or no basis in fact.  Children facing a demanding, pressuring parent or ones taught to do anything to protect the misbehaving parent are known to lie so as not to offend the controlling or pressuring parent.

Thanks for the reality check. It was a quite a shock to see the things initially, and my initial response was "LIES"! What I've realised is that the narrative is the same as the one my ex made to the Family advocate in October. It will be easy to show that they are very similar. ie coaching, controlling pressuring by the ex. It's her narrative, not the children's. I have photos of us having fun too, so the two pictures don't add up.

As for the kids, there is still a possibility that the children are not BPD or heading there.  They've had a lot of exposure to their BPD parent, whether diagnosed or not.  Can you look at it as though your children are infested with "BPD fleas"?  Can you hold out some hope that once influence from their poorly behaving parent that some of that BPD-ism will fade a bit?

For the younger two (D13 and D8) yes. D17 shows some major similarities, cruelty, dysregulation, splitting. I hope not, but my window of opportunity is closing for her. Sadly :-(

If the children aren't in counseling and with a very experienced and perceptive counselor, then getting them into quality counseling is a high priority item.  A good counselor that is unlikely to be conned or fooled by unsubstantiated or contradictory claims is worth his or her weight in gold.  Just as this 'Curator Ad Litem' who didn't do a thorough enough job to get past the posturing and claims and determine the reality can virtually sink your case.  Remember, the counselor must be highly experienced and respected by the court, not just any counselor can be trusted to get to the truth.

At my advocates suggestions, I've decided to go for a therapeutic option now. To help rebuild our relationship. I spoke to the psych, yesterday, she has experience with DBT, and offers forensic assessments as well. I asked for a therapeutic option now, and perhaps a forensic option with her mentor (a very good and court-respected forensic assessor) for 6 to 8 months time when I go for primary care. If the current proceedings do not yield a positive outcome.

Hang tight. I know it's shocking to see lies in print. Kids with a BPD parent do things for survival purposes.  

Only recently, your kids were acting affectionately toward you.

Whew it was quite a shock, but after a few days it has worn off. They are not new allegations, my ex has made them before.

D17 is not affectionate at all. D13 tolerates it, but is slowly turning. D8 is all over me.

Can the reporter/advocate be cross-examined? Would she be willing to do a second interview after the kids have spent extended time with you, and is she familiar with pathogenic parenting, etc.

Have you had a chance to talk to your L?

I haven't asked this. I'm wondering if it might be best to kind of yawn metaphorically, say these allegations are not new (point at the extensive family advocate investigation which was extensive and performed by qualified social work personnel), instead of going after a curator who clearly doesn't know what she's doing. What I don't want is the court to ask her to do further investigation of something she has no clue about. I need her gone as fast I can make her gone, or irrelevant at least.

If she interviews the children again before April 24th at my ex's request. (I have not doubt she will try, having done so well to convince her before) I will call foul. And you can be sure that I will record much of what happens minute by minute on my visitation weekends from now on, converting them into affidavit form on the monday including photos. I will also note the children's mood as they arrive and as the weekend progresses. Its always a steady improvement until they go back on Sunday

I would ask your L what strategies and tactics are available to you, as a way to counter the claims.

I did ask. She said get the children into therapy (which I am securing at present), and for goodness sake keep your nose clean on the weekends, not mentioning anything to the children.

In my family law court, if I offered solutions, the court was very amenable. When my ex said that I endangered then S11's life (so many allegations... .) and exposed him to pedophiles, etc. blah blah blah, my L would refute the claim and then suggest something that would essentially shine more light on the situation. For example, propose family therapy for my son (both of us together, in addition to individual therapy), work with a parenting coordinator, etc. Your L may be able to suggest something -- BPD parents don't tend to like shining light on parenting behaviors, so perhaps proposing that both parties participate in proactive measures will give you therapeutic access to your kids. That may not work out so well for your ex.

I love this strategy. Thank you. I will arrange a parenting appointment with my ex in addition to the therapy, and see if she pitches. I can at least look like the one trying. If she comes, she will likely end up screaming and I think she knows it will show her up.

I'm so sorry to hear, Moselle, about your court case.  Yes, it's often a Lose/Lose proposition w/the kids, of which I'm quite familiar.  If I made efforts to see my kids, I was accused of "harassing" them; If I left them alone, I was "abandoning" them.  All you can do, in my view, is to stand in your truth and let the chips fall.  Yes, you will need to refute the fabrications.  Agree, it could backfire on your Ex.  Judges can be pretty savvy about recognizing when one party is out of line, which is why my Ex was found to be in contempt of court.

Thanks LJ. I'm realising that its rock and a hard place. The good news is that I am using the JiuJitsu parenting suggested by L&L. The allegations were mostly old or complete fabrications. I focus on "listening" and "being with". It's hard for children to get mad at that. And when they do I say, "Sorry you're feeling rough. I love you so much. If you need some time out we'll be right here OK?" then i carry on. Usually the one takes time out for 2 minutes and then comes back smiling to join in the fun. They don't like losing out when the others are having fun. I've learned to separate the one causing the problem, validate their feeling as normal, and carry on, otherwise the whole group becomes affected. I also reward and celebrate a 'change of state', when they return, helping them to understand fear, anger and sadness can change to happiness. You should hear D8. ":)ad I changed my state", with a big beaming smile :-) Those are priceless moments.

[livednlearned]

The curator's report last week reframed the whole proceeding and shifted the focus onto me. I need to re-frame it back to her. Any thoughts on how? Or do I just give her coils of rope and watch?

It sounds like you have this narrative already in place... .no?

Court saw that she was disallowing a relationship between you and the kids, and acted.
Then suddenly out of nowhere there are sexual abuse allegations and a new curator. Why now?
How much does the curator know about the October process?  

I'm wondering if it might be best to kind of yawn metaphorically, say these allegations are not new (point at the extensive family advocate investigation which was extensive and performed by qualified social work personnel), instead of going after a curator who clearly doesn't know what she's doing. What I don't want is the court to ask her to do further investigation of something she has no clue about. I need her gone as fast I can make her gone, or irrelevant at least.

Yawn metaphorically  

This is similar to the approach we took in my case -- coupled with a demonstrated eagerness to shine lots of light on any concerns raised by my ex. When you do that, then the person with BPD has to argue against the proactive solutions that would actually solve the problem they are alleging. It looks very strange to argue against a reasonable solution. Who does that?

In your case, it might be more along the lines of, "Your honor, the timing of these false allegations, following on the heels of the court's order to reunite the children with dad, raise questions about the veracity of these claims. We recognize that they are an attempt to roll back the intensive and thorough court-ordered family assessments and subsequent ruling in favor of our client, done in October. The same assessment in which licensed, respected social workers concluded that it was not only safe but essential for the kids to reunite with dad. They have already lost x amount of time with their father. We propose family therapy for dad and girls, individual therapy for the girls, including DBT for any of the kids experiencing emotional dysregulations, and if it pleases the court, periodic visits from social workers to observe dad and girls, at the agency's discretion. We would like to propose that Ms. Ex also submits to parenting classes and individual therapy to work through unresolved trauma that may be preventing her from allowing a healthy relationship to exist between the girls and their dad."

I don't know if that would fly, but something like that.

I will record much of what happens minute by minute on my visitation weekends from now on, converting them into affidavit form on the monday including photos. I will also note the children's mood as they arrive and as the weekend progresses. Its always a steady improvement until they go back on Sunday

Would you be willing to have a non-family member present? Someone who can attest that what you say did indeed happen? Or maybe even record the whole visit? Even as a prop, just saying that you have tape and are willing to share the entire thing with the court, that could send a message. In the theater of court, sometimes these gestures get the message across that we are not afraid to shine bright lights.

You want something watertight that you can fall back on in the event she makes another allegation. The chances seem high that there could be more.  Let's hope that doesn't happen. Maybe you can flip this narrative upside down and put the focus back on her, so that going to court is equated with tons and tons of sunshine on her issues.

That's why it might be strategic to raise the prospect that ex has unresolved trauma that is interrupting her ability to parent appropriately. I would only do this if you sense the court is leaning your way. My L made innuendos. "N/BPDx has a history of extreme parenting anxiety, which he has clearly documented, that frankly is worrisome from a mental health perspective, not only for himself but for the well-being of the minor child. N/BPDx has raised unsubstantiated concerns, of which I'll list only a handful: that the minor child is being exposed to pedophiles, child id being left home alone, is exposed to possible trampoline injuries, riding in cars without seatbelt, accidents at pool, riding bikes without helmets, playing with neighborhood kids without adults present, violent video games, being stranded at school, getting germs from other kids, suffering excessive tooth decay, dehydration while hiking with friends, bear attacks, taking doctor-recommended medication, going to the clinic where other sick children are present. Court is not equipped to help Mr. N/BPDx manage this level of parenting anxiety and we propose that he engages in individual therapy with a psychologist trained to help him manage his fears and learn how to appropriately channel his anxieties so that they do not adversely impact the minor child more than has already occurred."

Of course, I was blamed for not properly tending to these threats. We took that out of the equation. It was effective because ex was always in court with something or other, so the judge was familiar with the pattern.

It was at the last trial when my L proposed that ex stand in the light -- substance abuse treatment, anger management, parenting class, and psychiatric evaluation. Pending that evaluation, he could submit to ongoing treatment so his relationship with S16 could improve.

That kind of light was way too bright, and ex peeled off and went away. A different kind of trauma, but given the circumstances, it allows S16 to focus on older hurts instead of trying to manage ongoing ones.

My L was a really good litigator. Much better at litigating than paperwork   so she could pull off some effective performances in court.

I hope you have that, too.

[Moselle]

Thanks for being there on this L&L, and everyone else who has supported me so much. I really appreciate you.

I'm reading this again thinking this is surreal. What a bizarre experience this is. I never even expected to see the inside of a court room, let alone fight my ex-wife, against her ridiculous charges in the High Court.

What a tangle I find myself in  

It sounds like you have this narrative already in place... .no?

Court saw that she was disallowing a relationship between you and the kids, and acted.
Then suddenly out of nowhere there are sexual abuse allegations and a new curator. Why now?
How much does the curator know about the October process?  

I like your logic. I will use it!

There are a few details which may help. Like the first judge saying "you are not a good mother", and subsequent evidence that has come to light that she lied to that judge in that 15 December hearing. Along with a further history of fraud and lies. (is this too much?)

The curator was dismissive of the family advocate saying she was remiss in allowing unsupervised contact and that I should attend anger management classes.  Fortunately I have my mom as a witness that here has been no shouting, nor discussions about the mother as alleged. In fact she has evidence that when there is a disagreement, I take them to a room, listen to them, calm them down, and exit to resume normal family time (ie that I have a calming influence on them). My sister has verified this in an affidavit as well.

On the contrary the mother riles them up and they make emotional, dysregulated, innacurate reports regarding the father to the curator. I can show this during my weekends as well when she phoned to scream at my mother.

I'm beginning to be grateful that I have exercised all my visitation at my mom and dad's place. I wanted a witness in case the sexual allegations returned. I was not wrong :-) :-) :-)

I was thinking of showing her narrative consistently for the last 3 years. and then highlighting the girl's responses to the curator being exactly the same as hers - shows coaching. Literally a table from all the reports generated so far. 4 columns showing her narrative "dad is lazy", "abusive", "sexually inappropriate". and compare it in the 4th column showing the consistency between hers and children's narrative and then tear the narrative apart with witnesses and character references. Thoughts?

And then, notwithstanding the narrative, the children's psych and the family advocate overruling it in favour of the father.  

Then segue into the piece you recommend below where we recommend treatment for her anxiety which is preventing the children from developing a relationship with their father, and is damaging to them generally.

Yawn metaphorically  

This is similar to the approach we took in my case -- coupled with a demonstrated eagerness to shine lots of light on any concerns raised by my ex. When you do that, then the person with BPD has to argue against the proactive solutions that would actually solve the problem they are alleging. It looks very strange to argue against a reasonable solution. Who does that?

Very clever!

In your case, it might be more along the lines of, "Your honor, the timing of these false allegations, following on the heels of the court's order to reunite the children with dad, raise questions about the veracity of these claims. We recognize that they are an attempt to roll back the intensive and thorough court-ordered family assessments and subsequent ruling in favor of our client, done in October. The same assessment in which licensed, respected social workers concluded that it was not only safe but essential for the kids to reunite with dad. They have already lost x amount of time with their father. We propose family therapy for dad and girls, individual therapy for the girls, including DBT for any of the kids experiencing emotional dysregulations, and if it pleases the court, periodic visits from social workers to observe dad and girls, at the agency's discretion. We would like to propose that Ms. Ex also submits to parenting classes and individual therapy to work through unresolved trauma that may be preventing her from allowing a healthy relationship to exist between the girls and their dad."

I don't know if that would fly, but something like that.

I prefer this "metaphoric yawn" approach rather than a vigorous defense against the curator. Shall I make an addendum which refutes her report in detail and make highlights available in the body of the affidavit, whilst referring to the defense I describe above?
 

Would you be willing to have a non-family member present? Someone who can attest that what you say did indeed happen? Or maybe even record the whole visit? Even as a prop, just saying that you have tape and are willing to share the entire thing with the court, that could send a message. In the theater of court, sometimes these gestures get the message across that we are not afraid to shine bright lights.

I didn't do this the last weekend, but will do so the next one in two weeks time. I took lots of happy pictures though.

You want something watertight that you can fall back on in the event she makes another allegation. The chances seem high that there could be more.  Let's hope that doesn't happen. Maybe you can flip this narrative upside down and put the focus back on her, so that going to court is equated with tons and tons of sunshine on her issues.

good strategy

That's why it might be strategic to raise the prospect that ex has unresolved trauma that is interrupting her ability to parent appropriately. I would only do this if you sense the court is leaning your way. My L made innuendos. "N/BPDx has a history of extreme parenting anxiety, which he has clearly documented, that frankly is worrisome from a mental health perspective, not only for himself but for the well-being of the minor child. N/BPDx has raised unsubstantiated concerns, of which I'll list only a handful: that the minor child is being exposed to pedophiles, child id being left home alone, is exposed to possible trampoline injuries, riding in cars without seatbelt, accidents at pool, riding bikes without helmets, playing with neighborhood kids without adults present, violent video games, being stranded at school, getting germs from other kids, suffering excessive tooth decay, dehydration while hiking with friends, bear attacks, taking doctor-recommended medication, going to the clinic where other sick children are present. Court is not equipped to help Mr. N/BPDx manage this level of parenting anxiety and we propose that he engages in individual therapy with a psychologist trained to help him manage his fears and learn how to appropriately channel his anxieties so that they do not adversely impact the minor child more than has already occurred."

Yes. Do you think an addendum showing all of these irregularities is useful. And make reference in the text.

Of course, I was blamed for not properly tending to these threats. We took that out of the equation. It was effective because ex was always in court with something or other, so the judge was familiar with the pattern.

I get a different judge each time it seems. The one last week was very clear that this is a paper exercise on proven evidence and the high court rules on this alone. The last judge in December 15 seemed interested in what she had to say and then chewed her out. My ex failed to meet the court deadline for her opposing affidavit of 25 January, so she has no defense paperwork other than the curator's report. ie she fights everything through the children. Shall I highlight that she has burdened the children with "keeping her out of prison" instead of mounting her own defense of the contempt charges. She wrote to my lawyer once that "the only reason the children will see their father is to keep her out of prison"

It was at the last trial when my L proposed that ex stand in the light -- substance abuse treatment, anger management, parenting class, and psychiatric evaluation. Pending that evaluation, he could submit to ongoing treatment so his relationship with S16 could improve.

That kind of light was way too bright, and ex peeled off and went away. A different kind of trauma, but given the circumstances, it allows S16 to focus on older hurts instead of trying to manage ongoing ones.

I think showing the evidence of unreasonableness, contempt and shining alight on her unwillingness to look at solutions will lead them in that direction. Not sure my advocate can articulate this carefully enough.

Also my ex is prepared to stare at the sunlight and say it is not shining, rather than peel away from anything.

My L was a really good litigator. Much better at litigating than paperwork   so she could pull off some effective performances in court.

I hope you have that, too.

Mine is more thorough than articulate, but ironically that worked out quite well, when the judge on December 15th, took that role on himself with my ex.  

He was thorough enough to spend his lunch reading the affidavits and fam. advocate reports.

I'm happy at this stage to keep her on. They seem to place an emphasis on the paperwork in the high court. Thoughts?

[formflier]

Hey Moselle!

I wish I was offering greetings under better circumstances. 

Keep up the good fight... .it looks like the marathon will continue. 

Hang in there brother... .

FF