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Thanks WW and LuckyJim, its hard to work on this on those days when my wife is at her best, beautiful healthy dinner on the table for me when I get home, the next days's lunch already pre-made in the fridge, the house clean and the kids bathed and happy by the time I walk in the door. I notice she gets this way after a big fight where she's done something bad, super nice and organized and together. I think its a guilt / shame thing. But I know it will crumble back into chaos before too long. It was these periods that in the past allowed me to forget the abuse and laugh at myself for ever considering leaving.

The call with the lawyer is scheduled for tomorrow. In the meantime, the next item I'm trying to tick off the list is figuring out the childcare situation if I really do get my wife to move out. It totally breaks my heart to put my daughter in preschool since she's only 2 and super attached to her mom, and this may become a huge point of conflict with my wife following separation. My son is 5 this weekend and should have been in kindergarten months ago, not driving my wife nuts at home. All the preschools / kindergartens near our place that we can afford are pretty dumpy, but I was willing to accept it. (In my wife's country you have to enter a lottery to get into public school kindergartens, which are better quality, and the only alternative is crappy private ones that are expensive). Nannies are only a good choice if you get lucky - super hard for me to trust a stranger with no else around to see what they do.

The main scenario I'm throwing around is putting my kids in kindergarten from around 8 in the morning to 3 or 4 in the afternoon, at which point I allow my wife (moved out by this point) to pick them up and take care of them until I finish work around 6. She could also have them for a day or two on the weekends so I can rest. I think its best if these care periods are supervised, but this will depend on what the courts / child services can provide. Let me reiterate that I want the kids to see their mother often, but I don't want her in a primary care position until she's shown genuine progress in treatment.  

There is a secondary benefit in all this to my wife - she can have tons of time to prepare for her work interviews later this year. This situation is after all everything she threatens every time we argue, she moves out and focuses on her work and I take care of the kids. But I think really doing it will horrify her, since number 1 she's too afraid to sleep by herself and number 2 she is very attached to the kids. Also the shame it would bring her in front of her sister and friends.        

~ROE

Roland, I totally get it about how hard it is to take drastic action when there are periods of normalcy.  Some days I'd leave for work thinking I might get served with divorce papers from my wife while at work, and I'd come home to a wonderful dinner.  This is where the BPD world and the DV world overlap.  In the DV world, it's called the "abuse cycle."  Those interludes of normalcy are addictive.  We are desperate for them to come and stay.  The knowledge that they are possible makes separating excruciatingly difficult. 

You talked about how difficult it would be for your wife to be alone.  While you know she's an adult and is making decisions to do things like cut up your clothes, I know that doesn't make it any easier, since you care for her inner child and don't wish her any harm.  Forgive me for forgetting, but is she in any therapy?  Is DBT therapy accessible where you are?  After the restraining order, with my lawyer talking to my wife's lawyer, and her brother helping us, I essentially forced her into DBT therapy.  It was a controlling/caretaking thing to do, but I'd do it again.  Right after that, working with my therapist, I had to learn to back away and let her own her stuff so I could heal (that was difficult and is ongoing, though I'm doing OK at it).  But I would absolutely force her into DBT therapy again.  It may not save the relationship, but she is feeling very good about DBT, and it is giving her a lifeline to help her rebuild.  I don't know about the particulars of your situation, and I don't want to set you up for an impossible goal -- I had an unusual amount of control from the legal pressure and with the aid of family and friends.   But if something like that is doable and seems relevant, it might be worth considering.

WW

WW, you raise some very critical points, thank you.

"Abuse cycle" - wow that puts a word to a concept I've only realized abstractly. Everything is cyclical with her / us and those interludes indeed were addictive. I no longer consider them a reality, but rather a chance to breathe and recover slightly. And at times a look at what may still be possible for us as a family.

"Care for her inner child" puts it lightly. A large part of the reason I'm still with her is a deeply ingrained caretaking mentality. She grew up poor, a latchkey kid and violently abused by her brother and alcoholic illiterate mother. Her parents both died tragically before I met her, leaving her no money. The only family she has besides some relatives in nearby China is her sister, who has few resources herself and has a son with Down Syndrome. She can't stay in a hotel or by herself over night because she's afraid of ghosts. I baby her in many ways. So me, coming from a middle class American background and having resources she didn't including a big family have always felt deeply responsible for her and still do.

My wife had a very brief period last year of acknowledging she had BPD, during which she had one counselor visit before stopping. I saw the same counselor myself not long after and told her about the BPD, and she said my wife had touched on it. But I do not think my wife grasps the severity of BPD and likens it to something like ADHD (she once mentioned she likes to exercise since it "helps her BPD". I would say she's back to 75% denial of what's going on now, though I hope the police visit sent a few signals.

Our neighborhood hospital has psychologists specially trained in BPD treatment in the USA who offer DBT classes. This is a brilliant stroke of luck in an Asian country that has extremely backwards attitudes towards therapy for the most part. This serendipitous discovery came when I made an emergency visit to their psych ward after having a mini nervous breakdown late last year shortly after the BPD came to light.  I recently touched base with my counselor there about the program and all my wife would have to do is undergo a psychological evaluation to join their DBT program, which is covered by national insurance and therefore dirt cheap. So my current plan is exactly like your own: legal separation with access to children based on accountability and treatment.

Would you be willing to share more about your wife's progress with DBT? I would be very interested to hear.  

~ROE

Hi Roland,

My wife is extremely motivated as a mother, and so losing access to D12 and being kicked out of the home was a huge wakeup call for her.  She bonded with her therapist quickly.  The DBT philosophy of balancing the acceptance of the person on one hand, with the need for change on the other hand, really works for my wife.  She said that therapy was nothing like what she thought it would be like for the 30 years she rejected it.  DBT is very validating and skills based.  It's not just talking, and it's not telling them how broken they are.  It's a very impressive program.  Caretakers like me have actually been known to buy the books  though I've only flipped through them since I'm concentrating on my own recovery.

My wife and I only communicate by text and e-mail.  I very quickly saw some improvements in my wife's text conversations.  She actually apologized, and she used validation with me!  This was amazing.  I can count apologies from her in the last 30 years on the fingers of two hands.  She seemed to do best shortly after a therapy appointment, and the more emotionally charged the subject was, the easier it was for her to slip into a lack of empathy.  Her blatant abusive behavior completely stopped, likely because the eyes of the village are on her now.  The big limitation is that as far as I can tell, four months into treatment, she is still driven by some very distorted thinking around the abuse she delivered.  She sees me as abusive, too, and has not owned up to everything she did, especially her parental alienation and sabotage of my parenting.  She has just said "I behaved inappropriately."  So, she is far from a safe partner.  But I was warned not to expect deep change this soon.

How your wife does depends on a lot of things.  I don't have a clear picture of how abusive your wife was.  On the one end of the spectrum, there is what I'll call "BPD acting out" which is honestly pretty abusive sometimes, but feels driven simply by emotional need and dysregulation.  At some point, abuse becomes so heavy, it really is just flat out abuse.  Then, if it continues it can go even further to "coercive control," a pattern of controlling behavior that is so pervasive that it eliminates every safe space the survivor has.  That goes out of BPD territory and into a whole 'nother set of books.  That's where my wife is.  The prognosis for those cases is not good.

How serious, and how organized, has your wife's abuse of you been?  The thing I like about DBT is that it strikes me as a powerful treatment program, well-tuned to what my wife needs, and even if it doesn't get the results I would have hoped for, it certainly seems like the best possible help that could be had, and it's important to me that she and my family get the best help possible.

WW

Hi WW, at the most extreme end of the spectrum it included hitting me and throwing hard objects at me, destroying my clothes, dousing my shoes in water and hiding my keys to keep me from going out, leaving kids alone with me so I can't go to work, verbally abusing me by referencing the corpses of my dead mother and grandmother, and telling my children I was dangerous and getting them to laugh at me. I would not call it organized in any way. The physical abuse was never too frequent and had died down a little but is still there.

In terms of child abuse, it is also sporadic but quite serious when it does happen, and mostly to S5. It included whipping him  on the back with a hot glue gun glue stick (several occasions of this), kicking him hard from behind, dragging him on the floor, and slapping him in the face, among other incidents. D2 has been hit a few times but not in about five months. She also on one occasional passed out drunk while taking care of them during the day. The emotional abuse could include mocking him while he was crying, threatening to send him away or to school, and including him in abuse against me, including once telling him to say the f word. (Noting I have screenshots of several online conversations where she admits to the physical abuse including a photo of my daughter where the mark is very faintly visible.)

I can't believe I let the above happen. I yelled at her on several occasions and shielded when I was there. I saw her remorse and apologizes to him and efforts to change, and it softened my heart. Looking at my record every day has helped me stay determined.

I believe she wants to change, but she still sees her problem as more of an "issue" that self improvement and motivational slogans can help with. She was mostly against therapy because its too expensive. But DBT would be very affordable.

~ROE    

*Update, I just spoke to the lawyer and this was his feedback about how I could approach the issue in this country:

-   No such thing as legal separation with custody arrangements here, must be divorce
-   Evidence needs to be objective, such as video or hospital record; text messages / photos can help but are not conclusive
-   If divorce but she doesn’t move out, can legally force out if I can prove I pay the rent and signed the contract (I do and I think I did)
-   Be careful about reporting domestic violence since she could turn around and blame it on me, court system is more partial to women in this regard

So my possible approaches are:

1)   She hits me, video record, report police, get hospital exam of wound -> divorce, arrange custody
2)   She hits child, video record, report police, get hospital exam of wound -> divorce, arrange custody
3)   Two sides agree to divorce after discussion, make arrangements, if she doesn’t agree, wait until get evidence of above and then threaten (he thinks this is the best way)
4)   Get doctor’s diagnosis of mental illness, confirm she is not fit to take care of kids (very slow, unlikely she's go and won't necessarily hold up in court)

To be honest, I feel like I had the wind knocked out of me. All of my dozens of pages of documentation may be useless compared to one video of her hitting the kids or me (I never know when it's going to happen, and I'd rather be protecting them then getting ready to video them if this happens).

Of course I will call another lawyer I know first thing to get a second opinion. And then a third if possible. And maybe this is an opportunity to do things a better way. Maybe it's possible she will agree to move out and get treatment if I talk to her and she sees how much I've done to make this happen. Maybe the best I can hope for is treatment with no move out. I don't know. I'm going to roll with the punches. But right now I feel very down and like I have no power.

~ROE

It is good that you are gathering information.  It seems early to decide.  You may find additional possibilities emerge, perhaps combinations of things.  For example, a chief weakness of 1) and 2) is that you are waiting for something bad to happen, and in particular 2).  Is there any chance you could sell her on DBT therapy right away, getting that started while waiting to collect evidence?  That way you are taking measures towards improvement right away.  You mention that your wife is motivated to do better by the children, and believes in self improvement and slogans -- DBT can honestly be sold as skills training and not therapy.  Perhaps you could talk to the DBT folks and see how they present themselves, and get their tips for selling it to her.

Tell us about 3).  If you agree to a divorce, and she doesn't agree to the move out and giving custody to you, doesn't the divorce process move forward at a certain pace?  What if she simply behaves herself for a few months?

You may be surprised at how quickly, now that you know what you need, you are able to accumulate video documentation. 


Don't mourn the uselessness of that evidence yet.  It tells a powerful story.  If you have 2-3 videos of bad stuff happening, it makes 100 journal entries seem more credible.  Nobody expects you to catch everything on video.  If you can anchor things with objective evidence, all the weight of your documentation may be able to come into play.


Keep gathering info and evidence.  Time will strengthen your position.  Either you'll figure out the best strategy to work with the evidence you have, or you'll gather new evidence.

Regarding gathering new evidence:
* If your children get any marks whatsoever, take them for medical attention. 
* If you receive any marks, go get medical attention, even if it's a wound or red mark that will go away with standard home care.  Also, I didn't know this until it was too late to be useful, but in my state, pain from a domestic assault is considered valid evidence of injury.  My wife never left a mark, but I missed several opportunities to document injuries with a doctor or hospital visit when I had head or joint pain hours later.
* Make sure you are videoing and documenting incidents of neglect and not just abuse, for example, if she is passed out on the couch when you get home and she was supposed to be supervising the kids.

In the U.S. at least, family court matters are decided by a "preponderance of the evidence," rather than "beyond a reasonable doubt."  In addition to your journaling and objective evidence like videos and doctor's visits, if you present as a caring, organized, compassionate person, and she presents angrily, possibly even denying things that you have objective evidence on, that is going to be noticed by people.

One final thought -- as you gather new evidence, share it with your lawyer, and see when he or she thinks you have enough to move on.  Because I was not regularly sharing my evidence with my lawyer, and because I was trying to save the relationship, I probably had sufficient evidence several months before I made a move on it.

WW

Hi WW, this was actually what I was considering before things escalated. I spent several weeks studying DBT skills via video tutorials with the plan to share the information with her and found it greatly useful to myself. It was actually the skill of "radical acceptance" that helped me accept the truth of her illness and start to take action on the situation. 

Perhaps I can re-strategize and try a more diplomatic approach, while gathering evidence in the meantime. Maybe there doesn't need to be an explosive legal confrontation after all. But it's like I said before: "Pray for rain, but dig a well."

Thank you, WW, I feel a lot better about things then I did a few hours ago.

~ROE

The chances of avoiding a legal confrontation may be small, but using your time to prepare, and giving her every chance to do the right thing, will help you feel right about your path when/if you need to follow through on tough action.  Prioritizing your values is also helpful.  Don't worry as much about her or you as you do about the kids.  Kids first, then you, then her.

WW

Thanks so much for all your thoughts on this WW. Things have quieted for the moment and given me a little time to reflect and revise my strategy moving forward.

I think calling the cops on her was a big wake up call for both of us. I strongly suspect she will not be messing with my stuff for a while or perhaps even my job. So I've possibly bought myself some safe space in that regard. I've started taking off my shoes in the house again instead of hiding them.  And I saw that I'm finally willing to do what it takes to protect myself and my family. Another benefit is that it prompted me to finally tell a family member and lift the burden a little.   

The truth is that the legal help might be a long process, but at least now I've got an idea of what I need to do. In the meantime, I'm going to see what can be accomplished in terms of treatment as per WW's advice.

Today I sent her this DBT skills video under the pretense that I needed help managing my emotions around the kids (true) and this video had helped (true) and she might like it (she liked it and subscribed.) https://youtu.be/yyH1JLZcVR8.  The great thing about the video is that it never mentions BPD, though the YouTuber does have extensive videos on this.

Building on the video, I will try to bring up the DBT skills class. It will take some playacting. I think she knows deep down what's going on but can only accept it if I discuss it in indirect terms.

In the meantime, I'll have my phone ready to video and photo dysregulated behavior and keep building a case. Hope I have good updates to share soon.

Happy weekend to everyone.

~ROE

Roland,

You've got this  |iiii

I can't remember, have we talked about the book, "Boundaries," by Cloud and Townsend?  I read it, and was like, "Hello!  Looks like I've sucked at boundaries for 30 years!"  It was an eye-opener.  Now might be a good time to pick it up.

WW

Thanks, WW, just bought the ebook without hesitation.

It's my issues with boundaries that got me here. Can't wait to start reading.

All the best,
ROE

  You aren't freaking kidding!  I am so right there with you. 

Me too.  I suck at boundaries until recently and I still have a great deal to learn.

Hope we can all support each other and share our stories as we learn this, greenyard.

99,

Boundaries require constant care and attention, and a never ending effort to enforce and maintain by the "non"... .

And it may take an amount of time before the boundaries are in any way respected by the pw/BPD, so this will have to be dealt with in the day to day relationship dynamic.

Red5

I have an interesting theory on boundaries based upon recent personal experience. I grew up with a BPD mother who had no concept about boundaries. Even when I was an adult, she felt free to pick at a blemish on my face in public and ask what it was. So of course, I knew nothing about having my own personal space because it was constantly violated in my family of origin.

This made me a perfect target for romantic partners with personality disorders. After divorcing my abusive husband, I sought therapy. I still remember my wonderful therapist's words: "Nice girls attract sociopaths" and "We've got to build you a self."

I had heard of the concept of boundaries, but it was purely abstract in my mind. I had no idea of how it applied in the day-to-day circumstances of relationships. The therapy I did really helped me understand that I was a person who had her own needs and was important in my own right. But I still wasn't overly clear on boundaries and what was mine exclusively to claim and what belonged to someone else. Those family of origin patterns die slowly.

So, fast forward through another marriage, this time with a pwBPD, but BPD-lite, a kind and decent man. A year ago, I suffered a mild concussion due to not eating and drinking enough water and passing out in the horse pasture and hitting my head on a concrete valve cover. The result: seeing double for weeks, cognitive impairment that made it hard for me to put together words, basically feeling like I got a preview of dementia.

Doctors told me that it might take over a year to get back to normal (if I was lucky). Finally I got so fed up with being cognitively impaired that I began doing neurofeedback. That process, though quite expensive and lengthy, returned my cognitive abilities and even improved them. But the interesting part I discovered is that it gave me BOUNDARIES.

According to my therapist, I'm one of those "highly sensitive persons" probably like so many of us here on BPD family. We tend to be kind and forgiving and tolerate much that others wouldn't perhaps because our boundaries are more fluid. Neurofeedback flexes the brain and stimulates areas that might previously have been somewhat dormant.

Here's my theory: Perhaps having boundaries is a developmental issue. If we have no adult to model boundaries to us as children, how are we to learn a skill that we don't even know exists? Possibly because that part of my brain was never previously "exercised" I had no idea or understanding of what boundaries meant. Now I do and it's become automatic, without me even having to think about it.

Life certainly delivers lessons in peculiar ways. Had I not had my concussion, I would likely never have sought the information I needed to learn about boundaries, since I thought I understood it in an intellectual way.
   

I have to ... .sorry Cat  

I pretty much grew up in the service, and being a very young Marine, we all did the "locker room" talk thing... .and I remember it being said many times, ."nice girls only like really bad dudes"... .

Its the whole pretty blonde cheerleader stereo type (Olivia Newton John), going for the "greaser" black leather jacket bad guy stereo type... .

There was another infamous character we all used to talk about, and this was programed into us by our Drill Instructors in Boot Camp, .he was an individual called "ole' Jodie boy"... .this is the home town trouble maker guy, who was going to steal your girlfriend away as soon as you left for the Marines... .or else steal away your young child bride wife the first time you left on deployment half way round the globe someplace... .this is the cause of the infamous "dear John letter"... .

Sorry, I had to add that when I read your post about "Nice girls attract sociopaths"   !

I wonder what ever happened to "ole Jodie boy"   ?

Its five o'clock somewhere they say  |iiii !

Yes, boundaries boundaries boundaries !

Red5

Yes, unfortunately true, Red.

Again it goes back to healthy boundaries. I was so "over-protected" by my mother that when I finally got out of the house, I wanted to experience the world. Unfortunately I had little worldly skills because she had watched over me like a hawk when I was younger. So perfect bait for bad dudes.

It was almost as if she thought she could keep me at age 9 in perpetuity. I had no preparation for dealing with men and the only "sex education" I received was "Kick them in the crotch."

I see so many people here on this site hoping to keep their families intact and in the process, exposing their children to an inordinate amount of influence from a BPD mother and I cringe. She's gone now, but a part of me will always love my mother, regardless of the many issues she inflicted upon me--she's my mom!

Yet, when I was around 5 or 6 and she asked me which parent I would choose if she divorced my dad and I said I'd run away, so ultimately they stayed together---I wonder who I would have been had they actually divorced and my dad got together with a healthy woman. Not worth much time conjecturing for me, but for those of you here who ponder divorce and the impact upon your children, it's a worthwhile topic to think about.

Cat, this is good food for thought.  I have D12, D17, and D19, so it's late in the game for me.  I never, ever considered that a second wife might be a healthy influence on my kids.  My wife was so high functioning in so many areas, and really did well with the kids on most levels.  I never considered anything other than trying to keep the family together.  Divorce seemed all bad.  I understood that my wife's and my relationship was setting an example for my daughters, but it seemed to fall behind in importance to their present needs, which my wife was meeting very well.  It was only in the last two years as things deteriorated that I saw the light and actually realized that setting up a peaceful household for kids to be in half the time might be better.  Now, I'm wondering if there is still time for me to meet someone and show D12 a couple of years of healthy warmth and love between a man and a woman before she launches.  Thank you for sharing.

WW

Frankly, Wentworth, if you're on the fence about divorcing... .well, I don't think it's too late for any of your daughters to see you in a happy healthy relationship sometime in the future.

They're going to be coming back to visit you after they leave the house and bringing boyfriends, husbands, then children. What better gift to give them than to see their dad happy and healthy with a woman who loves him with all her heart?

I stayed in my first marriage because I did not want to leave my children, my first wife and I stayed together for twenty-one years, before she ran off with another man... .enter "ole' Jodie boy"... .()... .she exited from the whole "program", the marriage, the kids, and me, yes everything, .so we (I) divorced, .and I became a single dad for about five years... .then I re-married  .

Now, like Cat, I went from really bad to not so bad (lite)... .alas live and learn eh',

I'd better hurry up with the learning bit, as I am a few daze away from the big five-two !

Looking back, I am glad I stayed with the first one until the bitter end, as she was into some pretty bad stuff, and my youngest (daughter), would have possibly been drawn into, and continued the cycle that was perpetuated by my first wife's family upon themselves had I NOT been there, this anomaly I will call it, went through about three generations that I could surmise... .but due to my continued presence in the dysfunctional and dead marriage, I broke that cycle, and protected my children from the "in-laws" influences, and it was not allowed to continue into our family... .very long story,

Now, my three children are alright, D25, & #2S27 are grown and own their own, and flourishing, despite the most nasty and destructive departure of their mother some twelve years ago now, my other #1S31 (special needs) is yet another story as he lives with me and u/BPDw#2... .I have written volumes here about that struggle, and it goes on to this very day... .looking back, I'd have been better off not re-marrying, and just concentrating on taking care of my remaining special needs son... .but that is what it is now,

Yes, the forming years of childhood adolescence, very very important to get that right, and set them on a good life course.

And you really only get one shot,

Red5

Cat, yes, that is my current thinking.  Thank you, thank you for your support!

Red5, yes, we only get one shot, and the teenage years matter.  To think -- don't laugh -- when I was a teenager in my stormy FOO, I was pretty annoyed with my parents.  I declared to myself that folks really ought to get their sh*t sorted out before they had kids!  I was sure I was going to do that.  Ha!  Nice theory.  I'm nearly reliving my dad's life.  Doing a few things better, a few things worse.  But it is humbling!

Roland, I'm doing a "hijack" self check.  Hopefully we're doing a decent job of staying on topic.  Let us know what you think!

WW

Thank you Cat, Red, and WW, this is one of the hardest questions for me. It comes down to my own feelings about my mother. If she wasn't BPD, she was something close, and I'm sure the boundary issues I'm facing now come in large part from her. But would I have done better if my folks divorced? Would I be a better father without my wife?

My wife is a super mom when she's in peaceful mode. But she does some really bad stuff around / to them when dysregulating. I think the worst thing, aside from the occasional hitting them, is pulling them into her disordered behavior towards me. This is not acceptable.  

Regarding the next step, I am still evaluating the results of calling the police on her. I believe I have made my personal belongings safe and possibly my job. I also hope I have set some boundaries on physical abuse towards me and the kids since I genuinely tried to call the police after she hit me and she caught me trying to take a photo of the place she hit. I think she knows I'm not kidding around and will take action where needed. I used to do nothing but say she should get help and make empty overtures towards a separation that both of us knew was not possible at that time. Now I think she's both a little scared of me as well as scared by what I showed her of herself. I expect I will know as soon as she moves into the next dysregulating cycle. I have to see how this part plays out and whether it will be a big step on the road to her recovery.

~ROE

Hi ROE,

I just picked up on the continuance of this thread. It sounds like you have been able to take some of your power back. Good for you!  |iiii

I think it was a really clever idea the way you introduced the DBT video by "sharing" it with your wife as something that helped you first, and that you thought she might like it. Something I have noticed in my uBPDh is that he never wanted to be the only person who needed help. If an any way it was suggested that he was the largest percent of the problem, he would turn it into "you never think you do anything wrong, you think you're perfect, etc." He was much more receptive to things that we BOTH could benefit from, because then the "shame spotlight" wasn't on him alone.

Does your wife ever acknowledge needing treatment for her drinking? That may or may not be an easier diagnosis to accept than BPD. Sometimes addicts have just as much trouble admitting to having a problem as people with mental health issues. Often alcoholics/addicts have co-occurring mental health/substance abuse issues, but usually at some point there is a "rock bottom" that causes an alcoholic/addict to realize that there is a serious issue to address. Seeking help for substance is very scary, and seeking help for mental health can be scary as well. I have been in both of those positions. It was terrifying when I made the decision to go to rehab, but I am so glad I did. Anyway, I have heard that DBT can be used with substance abuse treatment, so that is another angle you might consider. Not that it would be any easier, but still another possibility.

Glad you aren't having to hide your shoes :)

Blessings,

Redeemed

Roland, make sure to use the calm time to build with her, build your skills, AND make sure you are investing in yourself while maintaining your own boundaries.  That third part is the hardest, but it's like the third leg of a stool.  Hmm... .I should write that down  :)

WW

Hi Redeemed, good to hear from you. Regarding the drinking, a few weeks before my wife said she thought she might have BPD she said she believed she was an alcoholic. She did research about it and considered joining a local AA group, and then it fell off and there hasn't been any mention of alcoholism since. She describes her own drinking behavior in extremely euphemistic terms, saying she regrets it because she "feels sick the next day" and not because she was drunk and passed out in front of her kids. The tricky thing about the drinking is it comes and goes. She hasn't touched a drop in weeks. So its hard for me to believe she's actually an alcoholic or at least make the case to her she is. I think for now I will continue to soft pedal the DBT. I just downloaded a sample of the DBT Guide for couples and might look into buying it.   

WW good point about "using" the calm time, not treating it as a vacation. In the past few days I've signed up to continue therapy on my own dime, actively arranged to see a friend, and found a music school near my house for my singing fix. I'll admit I'm nervous about proposing it to her since she'll have to watch the kids for an extra time. But I'm going to sell it as she'll get a much happier husband and father for that extra hour or so of childcare.

~ROE

Hi ROE,

Yeah, the drinking thing can be tricky. Many alcoholics/addicts have trouble believing that they actually have a substance abuse disorder because they are able to abstain for long periods. I fell for that trick myself. It's something that our minds tell us and we believe it (in AA they call it "our disease" deceiving us.) I stayed sober for nearly two years and suddenly relapsed last Jan. The addiction took hold full force and it took me nine months to kick it again. It scared me to death, but it fully convinced me that I do indeed have the "disease of addiction" or a "substance use disorder". Whatever you want to call it. The book Alcoholics Anonymous has very detailed descriptions of the different types of drinkers (as opposed to the alcoholic drinker) and is very good for helping someone draw a conclusion as to whether or not he/she is an alcoholic/addict. Incidentally, that book tells the reader that no one can effectively decide whether or not you are an alcoholic except you. So I see how it would be difficult to convince your wife she needs help with that, unless she gets in trouble like a DUI or something. That is what sends lots of alcoholics to treatment where I live in the South .

I am glad to hear you have plans to do something for yourself that you like to do. I like to sing, too. It's amazing how good it feels to do something just for the enjoyment of doing it, especially after spending such an extended period of time running on emotional fumes. Good for you! |iiii

Couples DBT sounds like a great plan. It includes you and doesn't "set her out" on her own as "the problem."

Great progress, ROE. Keep up the good work!

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

Thank you for the perspective, Redeemed. Last time she went around 5 months no drinking. But maybe she is alcoholic. Either way the way she uses alcohol is not right and I hate hate hate for the kids to see her drunk even though she's very cheerful when drunk.

Even though we are in one of her cheerful cycles right now I am digging back into my action plans. It's two things that get me back there: 1) How suddenly I respond with anger to my children and 2) the increasing physical discomfort I feel, near constant acid reflux, poor sleep quality, and an overall feeling that my body is falling apart. These both remind me of the tremendous psychological and emotional burden I am carrying even when she is not dysregulating.   

I need to talk to more lawyers but I honestly don't think I will be able to enforce a separation via restraining order here. It would really require me getting video footage of physical abuse to myself or children but my wife only hits once and fast and then it's over before you even knew it started.

The plan that is forming in my mind now (and was most recommended by the lawyer) is to openly and directly discuss the situation with her. Without referencing BPD, I would explain how her behaviors are effecting me and I can't take it anymore. So for the best of our family, there are three roads here we can walk:

1) She goes to our hospital's ":)BT Skills Training Class" (we don't need to say treatment) and we see how it goes. DBT treatment won't definitely fix our relationship, but it might give her the skills to talk maturely about a separation and be better to the kids.   

2) She moves out, and we work out the co-parenting (VERY unlikely without legal support, because she could move back in whenever she wants. If we divorced, I might have the power to force her to move out since I pay all the rent.)

3) I move out and we work out the co-parenting (most likely since it puts the power in my hands. But I would be concerned about how she would treat them if I left. This feels like abandoning the kids).

The main problem in any of these scenarios is her inconsistency. Whatever direction I take, I need to have some control over the consequences.

~ROE

ROE,

Is option #3 for you to move out and leave the kids with her, or for you to move out and take the kids with you? Are you worried that she would treat the children badly if she had them living with her, or are you worried that she would treat them badly during her times to have them if you take them to live primarily with you?

Redeemed

Roland,

Option 1 has many advantages for your family, though still places demands on you.  Regardless of the eventual outcome of the marriage, DBT training is a win for her, you, and the kids.  If you are able to get her into it, your presence in the relationship helps make it more effective (she gets positive reinforcement for her improving skills, since you'll be giving her positive feedback) and probably makes it more likely she'll stay in it.  There's a risk of me saying this, because I don't want to guilt you into staying.  But let's just say you know in your heart of hearts that you want to leave.  Putting in a year to support DBT in order to have her healthier before you leave could yield benefits for the kids, you, and her.  Co-parenting after a split could be much better with someone who had a year of DBT under her belt.

The caveat here, is that depending on how much damage has been done, and how much is asked of you, Option 1 could drive you into the ground.  Can you see a scenario where you're able to establish boundaries, get enough support, do enough self care to stay healthy while remaining in the home through a year of DBT?  Paying attention to the physical toll on you is very wise.

WW

Redeemed yes I am worried she might break down into constant dysregulation under that kind of stress, and the drinking would definitely come back. Possible eventual acceptance of treatment, but probably not until after much damage had been done. Despite her love for them, I think it amounts to throwing my kids to the lions.

WW again you raise the key question, one I plan to work with my therapist on, of just how much I can take and under what conditions. If my wife agrees to let me take the singing class, if the therapy goes well, if the new boundaries set by calling the police hold, will that have a strong enough improvement on my mental state to last until she gets treatment and for the possible 2-5 years it may take to be effective? Or will I still fall apart over one comment about my dead mother?

Either way, I really like the picture you paint better than the other scenarios and it certainly has its benefits. It's a direction worth striving towards even if it doesn't work. I will not abandon the well for the possibility of rain.  

I'll note today that she just apologized for a very small outburst last night. I'm really curious how calling the cops has affected her thinking. As far as I can remember, I have never done anything in response to her behaviors other than yell, make hollow overtures towards separation, or most often, cry. She was all tough and rude with them while they were here, but again, I think she was truly scared. Hope it's not just wishful thinking.

~ROE

 

Remember, maintaining boundaries will take ongoing work just to hold your ground.  And I'm willing to venture that your boundaries are not where you'd like them to be and you'll want to continue to grow and gain ground.


2 years seems plausible.  5 years feels like a stretch.  Not that I have any credentials, but it feels like she'd hit her best possible state well before 5 years.  2 years happens to match the "time budget" my therapist recommended that I put on my marriage.  My wife's therapist said that her case was serious enough she'd definitely need more than one year, and the therapist mentioned two (I'm a little vague; I think she said it might take 1-2 years for someone less serious than my wife).  You'll be doing your own calculus based on where the helpers say your wife is and where you and your T think you are.  That calculus may change over time.  My therapist's exact words were, "Give it up to two years, and you may know before that."

WW

Hi WW, good reminder about the boundaries. I really hope I don't have to call the police again. But I know I may have to if it reaches the point where me or my kids' physical safety is in danger or my personal belongings are violated.

Thanks for the reference on the DBT treatment. The books I'd read gave me a feeling of many years to recovery. Of course everyone is different and not everyone recovers.

~ROE

Roland, if you have to choose between believing me and believing the books, your best money may be on the books!  The big thing I keyed on was a 5 year timeline to get you to a healthy place.  That seems like too long, i.m.h.o.  If you're at a healthy sustainable place, and get even better from year 4 to year 5, that's great.  As long as you're confident things are going well for the kids, that you don't lose yourself, and that your needs are taken care of as well.  It's super hard to accept the fact that we deserve to be happy, too.  My father set an example of sacrificing his happiness in an attempt to keep my mom and my sister happy, and I'm following in his footsteps exactly!

WW

The way you worded this makes me think that boundary strengthening reading would be very worthwhile. I understand that couples need to negotiate how to spend disposable income as well as allot for personal time away from the family, but the phrase "if my wife agrees to let me" makes me think that you've handed over more power to her than you give yourself.

I used to seek agreement and permission and now I just announce what my plans are and my life is much more peaceful. I don't know if that would work in your marriage, but it's certainly made a difference in mine.

Cat, these are wise words, and I'm really glad you keyed on this.  Learning this part about boundaries was a big deal for me, and was quite a change from what I'd been doing.  The fact that I thought my wife always had to agree to the boundaries goes a long way towards explaining why I had almost none for 30 years!

WW

That's one of the problems with being a nice person. I too, felt that I had to seek agreement in everything. Of course, I wanted to make my partner happy. What could be better? We could both be happy and in agreement!

Well, perhaps that works with a healthy partner. I wouldn't know. I haven't had one of those. For all I know, they're as mythical as a unicorn.

But to go back to the concept of "making my partner happy"---there's a lot to unpack there. For one, that statement assumes I have power over my partner's mood. And also that I should be deciding that my partner needs or wants or should be happy? Sounds pretty controlling now I think about it.

And controlling because I want to be happy. I always chalked up my motivation to "good intentions" but when I look at it this way, trying to control someone else's mood is more for my own comfort and happiness.    *)

Hi Cat, you're right that I have handed over far more power over the years than I should have, a lot due to extreme guilt over 1) the pain my wife went through during pregnancy 2) the fact that she's been at home with the kids for 4 years and sacrificed her job (I sort of did, too) and 3) Overall guilt issues due to BPD or BPDish Jewish mother. I'm starting to let go of this guilt. The reason I said she needed to agree to it is because she'll have to take the kids for me to do it. If she doesn't agree, my options are almost non existent.

Incidentally, I talked to her about it and she's supporting me to take the class. So there's that.  

Little boundary update over the weekend. While I was out of the room my son was jumping on the couch near little sister drinking milk and my wife pushed him off the couch. I didn't see it happen and couldn't assess the severity. But I confronted her about it later and she dysregulated immediately, starting throwing accusations of molesting our daughter at me to make me see how it felt. At one point I heard her taking pictures of things and she explained how she could accuse me. I laid out how I felt about the other abuse incidents and she said it was her parenting style and who was I to judge her with my high American standards, even though she had deeply criticized herself for those episodes and had promised herself never to do it again. It made me understand why the lawyer had warned me against calling the police or child services about abuse. She could easily turn the tables on me if I'm not careful.

WW I read a passage in the Boundaries book today I found very important explaining how we can't set boundaries with others by criticizing or complaining to them about their behavior since there's no true consequence. I find this infinitely true with my wife and most of my talk after these episodes is wasted breath. It just reminded me that I have to play the long game on this and be careful. Keep working on coaxing her into treatment while building my strength and gathering my resources if it doesn't happen before I could lose my sanity.

~ROE  

.

Hi Roland,

I'm glad the Boundaries book is helping! 

WW