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I took my wife out tonight for nice steak dinner to celebrate her getting the highest rating for her teacher evaluation.

She teaches 2nd grade.

For those new to my story, increasing intimacy will usually trigger some sort of "sabotage" or "push back" from her on the push pull stage.  I normally stay aloof... .and she is normally "pulling" me in slightly,.

So... I wasn't shocked that something came up.

We did a quick shopping trip on the way back.  We each took our own cart.  I was waiting on her at checkout line and she put her things in my cart and took off again... I assume for more shopping.

I checked out... went to car and called her to see what door she would come out... .and was waiting by that door.  The real reason I walked to the car was my back was hurting and I needed/wanted to get off my feet.

Anyway... .after the quick phone call... which she seemed ok on.

I get the texts below.

I'm kind of tired of the roomies thing... .

 Where we r just roomies with benefits,

 Not divorced but certainly not married,  

You check out without me so you don't have to pay for MY stuff... .

 I just thought we could shop together... .I will buy
 
I sent one text

You said Would you like to discuss in person why?


Anyway... she hops in the car and asks if I didn't want to pay for her stuff and that's why I went to the car.  I answer "no... that's not the reason"

She then asks if I didn't want to shop with her and is that the reason.  Again... I answer... "no"

I was waiting for her to ask for my reason... .she never did... so I only directly... succintly... answered her questions.  No real emotion shown.

She seemed agitated the entire way home.

Ignoring me now.  No... she didn't say thanks for dinner.

This is our pattern... .she wants more... I give more... she sabotages... pushes away... .so I rarely give more.

My plan is to sit on this for day or so... .and pick a time to address this... .somehow.

FF

This seems kind of game playing on your part.  You knew how she would likely react,  and you stepped into the [Punative] Parent Role to catch her (Child) like "aha!" But i could interpret the interaction with the roles reversed as well.  It sounds a little like NIGYYSOB (https://tinyurl.com/y72bnjen[/url). Are you familiar with Eric Berne and his book Games People Play?

Why not say,  "ffw, my back is hurting and I'm going to the car, " rather than trying the "gotcha?"

what i hear from her is that she doesnt like the separate carts thing. makes her feel like roomies, and separate.

why separate carts?

Hey FF,

Money and financial stuff has always been a red hot push button for your wife.   Always.   She has often represented the idea/feeling that she feels 'cheated' of something rightfully hers.   I would say she feels a strong need to be taken care of financially.    and I would guess that ties back to her family of origin where she likely didn't 'get' what she felt she needed.

from what I have observed in previous posts, she shops to self soothe.    impulse buying as kind of a safety valve.   I am mildly curious,   the stuff she went back for?   stuff on the list ?   or just stuff she 'had' to have.   if it was just stuff she had to have because she saw it and liked it,  by you not buying it, by you not being in the store, you were blocking her for getting her needs met.  (not intentionally,  more her perception)    this is still a needs entitlement war,... .she needed something and you were not providing it so she fired a volley.

I'm with Turkish... .my back is hurting and I need to get off my feet now, has to be part of this conversation somewhere.    Ideally it should have been as soon as you checked out, and left the store.     If not then it should have been part of the conversation in the car.

this:

I read this as FF you aren't taking care of my needs.  You aren't helping me get what I want.     No one ever takes care of my needs.    Somebody should always be taking care of my needs.    Pretty typical disordered thinking.

I wouldn't address it after the fact.   I read the divorce threat as a reflection of her feeling abandoned in the store not as a real threat.   I read the 'not divorced but not married' as a reflection of her idea of marriage,... .more a melding into an amoeba like oneness not two separate individuals sharing a life.   I wouldn't validate that.

If it does come up,  I would validate the unusually complicated financial life you have,  and that it does have it's difficulties.   I would acknowledge her frustration.   Yeah it was a tough shopping trip,  lots to buy for a big family.    I would separate the two events the dinner and the shopping.   Making sure to say how nice the steak dinner was.

my two cents.

'ducks

Gonna speak from the non popular opinion side of things maybe.

So why would you need to JADE?
Why defend or explain your behavior?

Even if you do, you are very aware, it will only serve to dig you deeper at this point.

I don’t understand why it would be your job to premptively JADE either.

Your wife is triggered by her own sense of entitlement.
Nothing will change that.  Nothing you say.

She is also further triggered by the reality of your physical limitations and disability.  She is likely to feel angry and more entitled for you to “blame it on your disability.”

You are clearly in a double bind of her delusion.

One delusion chioce is no better than another and validating the invalid is NOT COOL.

I don’t think there is anything you could have done to not trigger her except the fact that you “pushed” and it felt too good to her.  She is “defending” her own fear of intimacy.

Imo
Stepping back and watching it all play out, from this observers stance you are now taking, is the only way to get yourself not on any drama triangle rung at this point.

Behaving like your wife can handle intimacy is NOT “wrong.”  Yet, it has been done and that is that.  She is doing what she does... .reacting.  You did what you do... .showed her you are a consistent husband who is “responsive,” will endure some of her working it out at you, but not getting sucked into her and playing the game of her delusional choice.  You behaved according to same values you always do.  You are being the steady rock she is testing you to be.

She was not to be treated like a victim at the store or any time after... .that would be poor boundaries and you playing the Karpman game.  (And of course you know it otherwise you would have JADED or swooped in for a rescue role.)

Good on u |iiii

Your wife is upset to be facing the consequences of her actions.  She is upset because you do not treat her like a person responsible with finances... .‘cause she IS NOT a responsible partner.  Yet she can use you treating her not responsible to throw herself on the victim rung.
She is sitting with her own consequences, her reality, the reality of her position... .what more is there to do? Nothing.

That's the odd part... .she suggested it (actually did it... but she did "mention" grabbing a cart and going... there was no discussion... .)  

We stopped by "real quick" on our way home.  I wanted to get swimmers ear drops and I knew we needed milk.  She said she needed deodorant and a few other things.

So... I let her take the lead in this and set it up the way she wanted.  I really didn't care either way.  I figured this was a "functional" thing... .vice a "relationship thing"... especially after she went off by herself.

I got my stuff... and a few other things I saw and was waiting by the checkout.  She comes zipping by... .put hair color and deodorant in my cart and zipped off again.

OK... when we walk around together, we usually go at a slow speed because of how I get around.  (perhaps this is what I need to clarify for her... it's been a while)

So... .I can't answer for her on why separate carts.  It didn't bug me in the least.  I would have been fine with walking around together, I just couldn't do it at full speed.

Hope this answers it.

FF

Ahh ok... .she wasn't there to say that to in person.  After she dropped off the hair color and deodorant she zipped off again.

The self checkout became open in front of me... .my back was hurting... .she was not there... .I checked out and sent her text that I was going to go get the car (she didn't respond to text).

I got to the car and since there were a couple doors and I figured she would come out the one that we DID NOT go in... and there was potential for confusion... plus she hadn't responded... .I placed a call to her.

She answered.  I asked what door she would come out and confirmed it was as I assumed... so I parked right by door.

No discussion either way about why... but she seemed "perky" and "ok".  No hint on the phone that there was any concern whatsoever... none.

No... I didn't mention my back.  It is rare that she is supportive/understanding of my disabilities.  So... .I rarely mention them anymore. 

FF

I agree this is a very likely analysis of what she was thinking.

I honestly don't know what she bought... .looked like two plastic bags worth.

OK... gotta love store apps.  We each bought 9 items.  4 of them items in my nine were her things she dropped off.  2 deodorants and 2 hair colors. 

My cart total was just under $20.

She bought 9 items for 81.53.

5 items were gum and mints.  Then there was a "womans top"... .a barbie... .a rapunzel bow... .and a $13.99 "magazine" (I don't really care... but that has me curious)... .a $13 magazine?

Not sure if that adds to things or helps shed light.

FF

Sounds to me like she was shopping to soothe and when it didn't soothe her she lashed out.

Just to be clear, I am not suggesting you JADE.  I'm suggesting you provide a reasonable amount of information about where you went and why.

Maybe she hears your back was hurting and she gets triggered again.    That's on her.   You did what you needed to do the best you could.    As I think about it,   not telling her your back is done for the day doesn't offer you many possible good outcomes.

Yeah... .I hate heads I win... tails you loose.


While I didn't specifically think of drama triangle when I sent my text... .I did pause as I saw the texts rolling in and think "what succinct thing can I say... .that let's her know I'm not ignoring her... .I would like to talk to her... .yet also have some of my values in it... .perhaps state a boundary"

So... "would you like to discuss in person why?"  I'm not making a demand, I'm asking a direct question, I'm acknowledging she is (in a manner) asking a question, I'm letting her know that I will discuss that in person... if she would like"  (sort of restating a boundary that I don't debate things such as that via text)


Yeah... .I wasn't surprised that this came up.  Perhaps not that "this" was the exact thing that she did... but that after a really nice steak dinner (which was intimacy... it was a really nice dinner.  Great conversation... .loved it) that there was some dysfunctional reaction.





Can you expand on the above quote?


So... seems like there is a guy that often posts here that says "let them connect their own dots... .

Perhaps that's the advice I should follow.

FF

You know... .my first reaction to this is "you are right".

By "withholding" information that normal people in a normal relationship would share "Hey... I need to sit down for a bit... my back is acting up... "  I could see some argue that (as I have often argued) "I was attempting to save my wife  from reality"

Just like I took her out to dinner... .knowing full well that is was "more likely than not" that something that might look like "sabotage" would happen... .I did it anyway... .because normal people celebrate things like that (getting the highest marks possible on her evaluation).
 
It's one thing to present my wife with medical information and ask if she agrees... .or demand that she agree with doctors... .or some such thing.  Compared to:  "Hey... my back is done for... I'm going to the car to sit."

FF

I'm going to suggest if you want her to connect the dots you give her more dots to work with.    Poor executive functioning after all.

As far as she knew you were in the store and then you weren't.   Her mind jumped to fill in the blanks following her script.


Let's talk about it later can be dismissive and baiting.  It also keeps the topic going perhaps longer than it should.

My two cents.

I think you are right.

So... .my "big picture" is to give her more dots, yet stay away from "explaining" the dots to her. 

So... perhaps she would not have accused me of not wanting to pay... .but she would have accused me of faking something... .or "making it all about me and my needs"

Or she may not have... .since I would think that is a "bigger leap" than just saying i left because I didn't want to pay. 

Either way... it's on her.

FF

Cross posted.   Sorry.

Providing a reasonable amount of pertinent information is a politeness most couples do for each other.  In normal relationships.

Your wife might not buy into your reality because of her disordered thinking.   That's a strong possibility.

Seems to me not sharing "my back has had it for today "  really boxes both of you into a corner.

Hi f,

What I see w pwBPD, He doesn't like surprises, unless he is the one doing that.  He likes to know how it is going to go.  So, under your scenario, have learned to say (not always do I remember though), hey, when i check out, am going to the car.  See you at the south entrance.

Something like that.

then, he has the opportunity to say, xyz, I will be right back, just a few things, aren't you paying for the groceries (xyz) etc. since he is quick to say what he needs... .
We are not perfect.  

slow and steady :0)

Wondering if there is something to this... .

While it is not your responsibility to “pick up”her emotions... .
You “could have” chosen to do some soothing by way of... .
Tying in the delusion a bit and your reality... .

Like... .
SET?
S: Oh crap FFW... .
E:  It did look like I was being insensitive and trying to escape paying... .wow! Was not at all my intent baby cakes and can understand why you are upset.  (I mean... .not mandatory to sooth her at this point, imo... .but heck... .it IS a valid option too no?)
T:  my back is pretty sore so I rushed off to the car.

Then
DROP IT let it sit there and continue your strong rock mode.

Yet... .idk...
Just tossing idea around here fwiw

I would actually keep the SET even smaller than that.

FF wife,  hey it must have felt weird me leaving the store last night.  That wasn't my intention.   My back was pretty sore so I rushed to the car to sit down.

And then drop it.

I think your P would approve.  You gave her options.  You did not corner her.  You left the option to talk as an option, she heard it... .it is up to her to drink.  (Lead horse to water, can’t make em drink... .”forcing” her to drink would have been you contributing to her discomfort.  You cannot make her make healthy decisions... .you can only provide her the means by making it as easy for her as possible then leaving her there to drink or not drink or complain she is thirsty while staring at the fresh stream of water to spite you.)

... .

My quote:

You treating her like she is not responsible:  
Your wife has consistently proven to you that she is not responsible.
You have taken a RA approach and you
Believe her.
She has misused monies and been irresponsible to the family in how she emotionally is tied to money and wants to use it to rescue her dad or other such stuff.

When you walked away with purchasing your chosen items... .

I am sure she was reminded that
Ffw is NOT responsible with money.

While true... .I’m sure this stung her on some level.
How does she deal?  She externalizes the feelings.

Had you had a relationship with a non BPD wife who you feel was a fair financial partner in leading your family... .I do not believe you would have behaved as you did.

On some level, she must be aware that she is being treated like she is irresponsible... .or even if you didnt do it at that moment... .I guess this was triggered in her somehow.  (Bound to happen... .as RA dictates... .she is NOT responsible... .a fact)

If she had been a good financial guardian of the family... .
You likely would have picked up the tab of items in her cart as intermingling items/bank accounts... .would not matter.  I’m assuming that even if the items in her cart were not frivolous... .you likely would have left her to make her own decision on what to put in her cart to purchase or not.

You are now in a habit of leaving her to make purchasing decisions... .which she rather feel a “kept woman” and not in the position to do.

She likely is equating “love” with purchasing stuff for her.  Aka... .removing her from feeling responsible for making financial decisions.  

Choosing to buy my make up over my sons doctor bill... .is a reality I rather not have.  I recall the days in my youth where a man spoiled me and took me out and surprised me by grabbing the tab on everything as we went out together... .like shopping together was some form of a romantic date.  She likely was beating herself up for romanticising the shopping... .and feeling her ego bruised that you “left her there” with her purchases.

That is NOT reality here.

You have lots of fricken kids man!
Money is not disposable.  Not by your values/reality anyway.

She is not your “date” to spoil.  She is your wife.
Things are changed from that first few months of dating.

I just wonder if she is resentful and feels entitled to be spoiled/romanticized and treated like an 18 year old back in 1970 on a first few dates level of connection.

So... .
She had a wee fantasy
You spoiled her a little
Then she had to sabotage it
Cause she wanted to prove to herself it just wasn't “real”

So she put up a protest behavior
Proved herself
“Right”

And now her world will return to homeostasis

... .

Oh, I like babyducks simple fix! :)

(confession that I need to adjust in my own head:  Sometimes I see “mirroring drama” premptively as a way to get emotions to feel validated ... .a way to descalate a person.  Yet... .maybe that is manipulative of me... .idk... .something for me to think on, for sure.)

I gotta echo some of the other comments here.  I think at this point you should've asked something like "What's bothering you?" or offered up some empathy, like "You feel like we're just roommates because I walked to the car?  My back was bothering me.  sorry I should've texted that."

It seems to me in this case you're not losing anything by offering to meet her halfway, so to speak, instead of doing the silent treatment thing yourself.

Of course, she overreacted here... .but for some reason, I don't think it's that egregious on her part.  Maybe because it sounds like she didn't do it with outright hostility?

I think sometimes overreactions from a BPD are extreme enough to justify strict boundary enforcement (however you do it), but in other times, you can tell (if you can remain calm... .easier said than done I know) that they are exercising as much restraint as they can, even if they are still overreacting.  on those occasions I think you can respond to them with empathy, without creating an incentive for them to violate boundaries.

In my own case, I think what sets me over the edge is whether she's hostile or not.  If she asks to know who I'm texting, I might be annoyed either way, but if she does it in an accusatory, hostile manner, I see it more as a controlling manipulative tactic, and I have trouble staying calm.  if she askes out of a sense of concern, like "Hey, the kids are waiting in the car, what are you doing?" I'm less likely to be upset, and can defuse the situation myself. 

It seems like your wife would like a more intimate relationship, but the push/pull dynamic makes you keep some distance in the relationship.  Is there a way that you can increase the intimacy yet avoid the push/pull?  Here are some thoughts off the top of my head:

• Be extra intimate just before you leave to go somewhere.
• Are there certain types of intimacy that aren't triggering?  You told us the story about the 2 of you just sitting and talking as the best day.  Why didn't that trigger her?

I like this... .I really like this.  

I also appreciate the more thorough vetting of possibilities and points of view.  Very helpful to me to put the  entire episode in "proper context"

This is a "skirmish" (to go military)... .a "light probe".  I can't imagine she put much thought into it... .most likely just a reaction... .she did what she does... normally

Most likely she thought more about it later and realized there  was no more "fuel for the fire"... and so kinda stayed aloof and a bit agitated... .and very likely (as sunflower suggested) realized the "status" of the situation again... ."that I don't trust her with money".

At the risk of introducing rabit trails into this.

I would have happily paid for her stuff (assuming she was nice and pleasant).  Perhaps if she really was buying a "magazine" that cost a lot... .perhaps I would have inquired more.  I really doubt it was a "magazine" that we normally pay $3 for... .who knows.

In FF world it's more about her being nice... saying thank you... being pleasant about asking, rather than "hers and mine"

I enjoy providing (buying stuff) and I enjoy people that are thankful/appreciative.

Anyway... keep it up... this is helpful and look forward to sharing a quick SET... .then move along.

FF

P and I have talked and we try to "read the tea leaves" about "what type" of intimacy it is... .but so far we have a pretty broad label.

It seems to apply to anyone... .even God.

So... when I see things that "most Christians" would say is growth and "getting closer to God"... .something is going to blow (basically there will be a push)

As her family runs around the drama triangle... .she will be "close" to her Mom... .and "far" from her sister... ."poof"... .it switches and doesn't "stay still" for a while.

She has a mentor teacher that is a "frenemy".  Full disclosure:  I've only said "hey" to this lady once or twice, but listening to my wife's stories... .they get closer... and then her mentor "plots against her".

Such as:  I'll try to be quick.  There are some rough kids in her class.  Police involvement with 2nd graders... .you have to work for that.  1 dad... 5 kids... 5 baby momma... .and oddly enough the kids stay with Dad... .and women cycle through and care for his kids.

Anyway... the kid had an outburst and made some very specific allegations of racism against my wife... with words that 2nd graders don't use... .very adult descriptions.

Nobody in school or CPS or police buys the allegations... but still... .in this day and age... formal investigations are concerning.  Perhaps this was 1.5 months ago.  And yeah... .I "relaxed" my boundaries... .listened... validated... .all that.

Anyway... .there was a day or two there where my wife was convinced the principal had put the mentor in place to "spy" on her... and uncover her racist tendencies... .they obviously were out to get her.

Yeah... that was fun.

Back to the post:

The sitting and talking thing, which we often did was before the flood on the farm.  So... really before "sh$t hit the fan"

We were very intimate (IMO)... . 

If you remember... .1994-2009 was very "normalish"... .although I'm certain that military lifestyle masked or whatever dynamics.  Perhaps I'm over thinking... but there were lots of honeymoons and then I would go away... .my wife could have her time... .I would come back... honeymoon phase... .wash rinse repeat.

FF

Morning FF,

So as I understand, yourself and Mrs. FF have (completely) separate $$ accounts, that have separate debit/visa type charge “cards”; or else accessibility to the subject/existing cash balance,

So Mrs. FF spends from her slushy account, and you; being completely separate in all regards, spend from your own slushy account, and never the twain shall meet; or else be intertwined; is this correct?

And she has been pretty much cool with this arrangement?

For a period of time now?

My own u/BPD wife also fawns, then goes to fright, and then fight, approaching, during, and then after any intimacy.

So I can certainly relate to that one…

And I have a bad back too, the Fighter Doc told me it was “crooked like a politician” upon my discharge physical, and then onto subsequent travels in the endless labyrinth of bureaucracy of the VA system, yeah, about ten minutes with a chainsaw, and I’m done for the day!

Maybe… Mrs. FF thought the “date” was still on, as you bought her a nice steak dinner, so she expected more “stuff” on the way home, “fawn”.
*Hair coloring
*Topside clothing
*Barbie/Rapunzel bow
*Breath mints/gum
*Last chance, checkout line magazine

Then when it went “Dutch”… enter “fright”?

Then when your sacroiliac light illuminated, and you egressed the scene, she went from “fright” to fight” on you… thoughts?

But wait, there’s more… I have begun to get the bad attitude, that I don’t like repeating myself, so if I say, “Hey Babe”… my back is killing me, I’m going to go inside, and get me a mason jar of water with a “limon twist”, “then I’m going to park my arse right here on this log for a while; whilst that chainsaw cools down for a spell”… I should only have to say that one time, and NOT have to explain it anymore… so when I get the “you’re a lazy bum for taking a hard break look”… from her, it does trip my circuit breaker a little, especially when it’s her idea to take down this oak tree in the first place…

Red5

Jumping around rabbit trails,  I am going to say... .nope don't repeat yourself about the back being sore,  dont engage in a JADE.

Don't withhold information in a misguided attempt to protect something or someone.

Try to walk down the middle of the road,  sharing important information in a reasonable way.

It's a balancing act.  And I know it's hard to do.

So... .I think it was back in Octoberish... that I "cut" the last financial tie.

(briefly:  She had wanted to log in with my password to "our" joint bank account.  She demanded my password.  I said no.  She somehow used information she knew to reset the password, instead of using her own... . She also did some reckless spending.  Oh... .and when I tried to "solve" the issue and come to an agreement... .she threw a new bank card at me... which hit me... and said she didn't want or need my money.)

I've taken her at her word.  Everything was reset by me at bank (I had gotten an email saying "did you change you password) and I put something in my file to do extra verification for future changes

Note:  I have  pretty complicated financial life... multiple properties... .multiple accounts.  So... she still has a card to an account that hasn't been used much lately.  

A couple of times I'll shift money onto that card if it's something we've agreed on and I can't be there for some reason.

She has full time job and her check gets deposited into her account... .

Umm... .no... my wife is not cool with it.  But... .she really doesn't have a choice.  She threatened a bunch of doom... .I ignored it.  She understands that for that to ever come back together again... .there are a bunch of things I won't budge on, that she wants no part of.

I've not explicitly told her that it would take a post-nuptial agreement... .but she understands it would be a written thing that is detailed... no wiggle room.  She wants wiggle room.

And... she can wiggle all she wants with her money.  

I'm blessed that there is not a financial "need"... .as in we "need" both incomes to keep household running... and businesses... .so it limits the amount of problem solving we need to do.

Yes... it's dysfunctional... .but it works way better than what I was doing.

FF

Did you tell her your back hurt before you checked out and left?

If you didn't - this whole thing might have been averted with that communication.

This night was supposed to be about her and that was the expectation- you took her out to dinner to celebrate her achievement. This may have felt like togetherness to her. You stopped by the store to pick up some things. I get that- you have 8 kids and she could have appreciated the chance to shop without kids in tow.

Then - if she didn't know your back was hurting- from her point of view- you just left. Yes, you called her to tell her, but if she didn't know the reason, then she made her own reason out of the baggage between you over finances. ( FWIW I don't blame you for the arrangement, as she has not been reliable with the finances- but she does have feelings about it. That doesn't mean you give in to those feelings but they are there and so this episode triggered them).

The issue though doesn't seem like just over money but communication. Communicating your reason for leaving is a form of connection- letting her know what is on your mind. She may have reacted to that lack of communication. Maybe on another time it would not have been a big deal, but I think, on what she may have hoped was a date, it was disappointing to her and it felt more like a roommate situation than a marriage. The finances are likely at play here too, but perhaps communicating when you left the store might have pre-empted the reaction.

I have a concern with this line of thinking, maybe... .

While I understand and also agree... .
As it is how I raised my own child... .
If you are not behaving properly, then natural consequence is => I’m putting the game away and not playing with you.

However... .
How does one know at what point if they are behaving passive aggressive?

Humm... .
I’m not sure
Is it dependent on you sticking to your boundaries aka being responsive vs being reactive to the situation?

No... I didn't say anything to her. 

In my defense, many times... perhaps most any reference by me to disability is a fastball for some weird comment... .or worse.

However... that may be a better "battle to pick" than staying radio silent.

Not sure.

IN other words... .there is solid reason why I skipped saying anything about my back... .although I may need to "re-rank" my reasons.

FF

FF, I’m sorry for this pothole you seem to have inadvertently run into, I’d imagine you thought you’d scored some brownie points with the steak dinner but as per usual no good deed goes unpunished. That said, the two done necessarily have to be inextricably linked although I guess any normal human being would reasonably have expected there to be a credit in the emotional bank for a good bit of cow.

If that were my wife i’d be thinking, she’s disappointed that o didn’t show kindness, patience and care about her safety enough to wait for her at or after the checkout. I didn’t “hold the door open” so to say and treat her with the fragility she deserves and maybe feels. He narrative would be “enabler doesn’t care about me, he just left me here to fend for myself” especially if she was expecting me to be the other side of the checkout waiting. Hence roomies.

Re the purchases. My experience is that if I don’t show objection to the first wave of NEEDS another wave will come and in the all or nothing thinking kinda way they get on a roll and kitchen sink spending. Incidentally the first wave of spending was probably the steak dinner... .that set the scene to open the piggy bank raid (albeit some meaningless tat and the most expensive mag in the world)... .she deserved it!

I might have hostorically (as emotional caretaker) sent a message heading off the expectation disappointment saying “hey babes, sorry I couldn’t wait, back is killing me and had to get to the car to sit down xx”

Just my 2p.

This is a great response FF because it allows me to share something I had to learn. It was normal for me to filter my responses and avoid hot topics to try to keep things calmer growing up with BPD mom. It was actually second nature and I took that into my own marriage.

But a MC pointed out something along the lines of we can only control ourselves, not another person. When we avoid the true response out of fear of their response- we are actually controlling them, not ourselves. Then, we come across as inauthentic and controlling and this can backfire.

If we are able to answer from a place of authenticity, then their response is up to them, and our job is to manage our reaction to their response. This is the part we can control- our response.

So the alternative event might have been this : You tell FFW that you are enjoying your time shopping with her, but your back is hurting and you are going to sit in the car. Her response is something snarky. Your response is to take care of you and not add to the drama. " I am sorry you feel that way but I need to take care of this". Then go to the car. She might escalate but then it's on you to manage your response.

You could see this avoidance as a sort of WOE and I think our goal is to be more authentic in our responses. I also agree that there is a time and a place to reveal emotional information, but in this case, your back hurt and that was the reason. Not saying it left a space for her to fill it in with her feelings.

Been there done this many times, and it has been a learning curve for me to change this pattern on my part.

Late to discussion, but my two cents:

Sometimes we're so used to avoiding JADEing that we omit necessary information.

When I leave the room, I tell my husband that I'm doing the laundry, feeding the horses, using the restroom, etc. It's kinda annoying to give him that much info, but it avoids the abandonment thing, which is what I think your wife felt.

So, a quick "gotta take care of my needs" and you're done. If she makes it an issue, not your problem.

But it is his problem, she’s made it his problem by emotionally wounding him. As an emotional caretaker, a role FF knows he has to adopt and does every time he uses different tools etc, he is staying outcome orientated. If over informing to avoid abandonment or ultimately disappointment vs expectations then is over-informing not a good thing or productive tool?

A stitch in time saves nine!

Making decisions to best avoid the fallout of another = enabling dysfunction

Making decisions in line with ones values and to be a model of decent behavior = allowing the other person an opportunity to rise up to a higher level. 

Important to provide opportunities
(We cannot control anothers emotions)

Giving appropriate disclosure of our intended actions with some appropriate level of granularity is providing a fair opportunity for the other person to react accordingly. In the case of communicating with someone we know or at least highly suspect has an emotional sensitivity disorder, slightly more information is appropriate.

Would it be reasonable to intentionally withhold known information about ramp access from a person in a wheelchair knowing full well that they are anxious about their ability to enter a building? No. I personally would endeavour to provide appropriate information I had available to me to minimise their anxiety. Would I provide the same level of information to an able bodied person, no. I am aware that this person has additional needs and seek to provide where I can.

Going the extra mile out of kindness and compassion for our SO is what we can do to give our SOs the best opportunity to formulate the fairest picture of our intentions. We’re advertising our intentions in the clearest possible way.

Sometimes it feels like we’re encouraging people here to be d!cks, giving less information that we would otherwise provide. “I’m going to the car... .you work out why from the myriad of suspicions you have about me”. A relationship with a pwBPD is tough and it does involve effort, would we be using the same FU mentality with someone we know to suffer from aspergera or autism?

I think we did encourage FF to explain why he went to the car. He stated that he didn't say the reason- his back was hurting - because a reference to his disability could trigger a nasty response from his wife. By not stating why he was leaving, he left that to her to figure out.

The discussion was that- by trying to control the possible outcome of her response, he was actually trying to control her reaction. We can't control another person's choices. So the suggestion was to tell her, not to leave her to fill in the blanks.

How could she emotionally wound him? I think she might have made a snarky comment or possibly been angry, but is this emotionally wounding? I don't suggest we become emotionally cold, but I also think we need to consider why we should feel emotionally wounded by a snarky comment. I do understand this feeling, but it helps to not be so reactive to these comments. Sometimes they are just emotional dysregulations. The person making the comment may feel better after releasing some bad feelings and seeing it in that context may help to not take it as personally. This isn't about being cold-hearted but less reactive to drama- which can decrease the drama in the relationship.

Once we start changing our natural behavior to avoid “setting off” the other person... .it can become a slipperly slope... .an endless rabbit hole.

I rather my values guid my behavior... .

Not another persons ability to add discomfort to my experience via dysregulation.

There is not one answer here, imo.

FF had many options and paths that are consistent with his values.  Different levels of expressing he was leaving to simply leaving... .

He choose one.
He may want to choose diff next time... .
Or not.

Imo... .
All options where he is being guided from his values vs anothers ability to dysregulate... .all gonna be fair options for everyone.

If FF was not emotionally wounded in some way or other he would not have written a post on here. In some way or other he was emotionally affected by her reaction. My guess is that FF was wounded because his expectation was that after a steak dinner he would be cut some slack. That didn't happen.

By not referencing his disability i.e. "my back is hurting" he withheld important reasoning information which led her to come to (total supposition) another less rational conclusion... ."well you didn't tell me that, how was I supposed to know". Had he given FFw the additional information her irrational conclusion would have been her problem to deal with and not something for FF to JADE. She gave him the nasty response regardless of which route he chose, but by omitting important information could be seen as culpable for her errant conclusion.

Not JADEing after the event is well evidenced and makes sense. But to give someone (who is prone to extreme and irrational thinking) a reasonable chance of coming to a reasonable conclusion of our actions and intentions there needs to be a reasonable amount of stepping stones. I would not advocate telling my W that I am leaving for work at 5:30am, I'll be driving to the station and then catching the train if every morning I do exactly the same thing. It would not be rational for her to expect anything different. HOWEVER, if this was not my normal routine and I typically worked at home I would tell my wife... ."Tomorrow I am going to the London office for an important meeting with the board, I'll be gone at 5:30. I'll drive to the station and catch the train". There's no need for her to have to guess. That's reasonable. If she were to call me at 7am ranting at me asking where I was, my response would be... ."I explained this last night, gotta go, love you".

FF's fear of one reaction led him to plug one hole only to open another. I'm just advocating being clear concise and provide all reasonable information first off. The ball is in her court and any response is her business.

Idk why one would need to assume a wound on FF.

Surely he can speak for himself so not gonna go there.

What if he is simply strategic and that is why he posted?

Or what if he posted to compensate for the lack of intellectually stimulating reasoning from his wife.  At least here at BPDF... .he has a chance of getting something through to someone, negotiating on his thoughts and can recalibrate his adjustment to his irrational home life world... .thereby bringing his wife a continuously “sharpened” version of himself.

Heck, he could have even been bored and felt like engaging in the community here for some social satisfaction, !

Idk... .
I’m sure there are infinite reasons one could make up.

Interesting tho the idea of reacting from a place of “wound” surfaced.
Maybe I was hearing wrong tho.

I agree Enabler- I think the posts here concur that he should have told her. There were two decisions to consider:

He doesn't tell her because there is a history of her reacting to discussion of his disability. By not telling her, he avoids her reaction. The result is that she made her own assumption and got upset with him. This did go against his expectation of the evening going well and he was possibly disappointed.

Another decision would have been to tell her why he was going to the car. If the reaction he was trying to avoid happened- she makes a mean comment about his condition- then he would have to deal with that.

Seems like a no win situation and from the standpoint of whether or not FF's wife would get upset and he could be disappointed, either decision could possibly lead to that. So what was the one to make?

Seems the conclusion is to choose #2: why?

#1-- FF is avoiding information with the hopes of avoiding a hurtful comment from FFW. His reason to avoid it is in attempt to control her possible response to what he says, and in turn avoid feeling hurt from it. But it is about avoiding feeling hurt by trying to control her reaction. This is not about whether he is right or wrong in doing so, but about which is more effective: controlling another person or controlling ones self.

#2: Give the information. It is the truth. His back hurts. That is a fact, and not an opinion. If there is to be any judgment about it from FFW- that is up to her, and he can't control it. But he is stating the truth and not avoiding it. If this is consistent with his values- being truthful and not trying to control- then at least he is right with himself about it. She may or may not have reacted, but it would be up to FF to decide how to deal with his own feelings.

Sunflower touched on an important idea. The situation involves a person with a disorder- and we should have compassion for people, but when we violate our own values, we diminish ourselves in a way in an attempt to manage the other person. When faced with these types of apparently no win situations- our values can be a helpful guide.

Idk... .
Way I see it... .
Giving a nuclear dose of thought to whether to go sit in a fricken car cause your back is hurting... .

Imo
Validating the invalid
Crazy making behavior

I wouldn't do that crap.

I wouldn’t expect anyone else “should”

Imo
It IS however... .an option.

NOT
The only or best path

The best path is kind to everyone involved (based on my own values)

Imo... .in that moment... .
Maybe being kind to his back was his focus or such
(Engaging in crazy making thoughts literally DOES exacerbate pain, blood pressure, etc)

Is that wrong?

Maybe others think it is.
... .I’ll back away now... .

FWIW- I think a lot of issues come from making meaning out of facts. We all tend to make meaning out of things but it helps to look at the fact, and also the meaning.

It took me a long time to realize I have no control over the stories someone may make up about something I said or did. I would JADE, try so hard to explain what I meant, or what I said and those would turn into circular arguments.

A common one for my situation is making meaning of my being busy or distracted. That becomes " she is ignoring me, doesn't like me, doesn't care about me". I could have done all kinds of caring things that day but once this story starts, it is hard to stop it. But if the accusation isn't true, then it isn't.

I think these interpretations are linked to feelings and feelings feel like facts to someone with BPD. How many times have we been wrong about our assumptions? I know that I tend to take things personally when they are not and I have to cognitively think things out.
However if someone is very disordered they can come up with some pretty outlandish accusations from a fact. At some point, I think we have to consider the truth in an accusation, and if it is not true, then judge it as so. We are all going to make mistakes at times, but checking in with our own values helps us guide our responses.

The only fact I can think of here is that: FF's back hurt. He could state the fact to his wife. Her interpretation isn't something he can control.

There is the possibility of clarity on his part. He can talk to his wife and say that his back hurt but he was afraid to say it because he didn't want to bring up a touchy subject. I am sorry that this caused confusion. Then leave it at that, no JADE no money talk and how she reacts is up to her. The clarity is for him- he stated his truth but he can't change her thinking.

Good discussion... keep it up. 

For clarity's sake... it had been a while since any outlandish texts have come from my wife.  While I didn't look far enough back in my text log (I use google voice) to find the last "crazy" in text... .I went back for a month and couldn't find anything even "remotely" objectionable.

So... .there are benefits to having a more "stable" relationship and I suppose there are downsides as well.  When "crazy" shows back up.  I think it is more shocking... .unsettling because you aren't "used to it".

So... when there is an "episode" I will reach out here to help put it context (among other things).  Not that her reactions (even in this case) are my fault or responsibility ... .yet I do have to be an improving steward of my relationship skills.

One of the huge benefits of this forum is to have a group of people that understand my story... .and my reactions... .ask questions and make suggestions and share what has helped them.

Huuuuuuuuuggggggggeeeee  help.

1.  Babyducks and the suggestion of a super succinct SET... .and move along. 
2.  Notwendy and what she learned about "not WOE"... .being authentic.  (this is the kind of "strategic thought" that I've been trying to focus on)

Others brought up thoughts of enabling dysfunction, emotional wounds ... .

Anyway... .my thoughts on navigating a BPDish relationship are that I need help to "adjust the swing of the pendulum"... .knowing that I'll go too far one way... .and then eventually too far the other way.

In this case... I likely took boundaries and avoiding invalidation a bit too far.  Perhaps in a few months I'll give up too much information on something...

Anyway... .I'll try to get back here later today with further details in how this has played out

FF

FF, I think it is "normal" to waver back and forth over the line of too much and too little. I don't think we reach a destination of getting it completely right, but learn and fine tune.

As to your disability triggering your wife- I wonder if this triggers abandonment fears. I've mentioned before that I had difficult pregnancies and during this time, my H interpreted my being less energetic as not being interested in him and rejecting him,  and either got angry at me or ignored me back. I wish I had known what was going on at the time, because to me it appeared as if he was being cruel at a time when I was vulnerable. But he was acting out of his own feelings, not the reality at the time. I was not rejecting him at all.

I observed this between my parents when my father got ill. If he was unable to jump up and do something for my BPD mother, she assumed he was not doing it on purpose to hurt her and responded by raging at him. This also appeared very cruel to him at the time, but to her, she was in victim mode. She didn't see his situation only her own hurt feelings. I've also heard this distorted thinking from her when speaking about me as a baby. She is convinced I spit up on purpose like I was some mean baby plotting to ruin her carpet or blouse. These are insane interpretations, but they are based on some feelings that were triggered in her.

However, we can't control these interpretations and WOE to avoid them doesn't do that. I think the best we can do is stay true to our values as best we can.

I would say this is part of it and paranoia is mixed in there as well.  Also, one of the "core" things that my P has instructed me on about my wife is that telling her she is wrong... .or situations where she is wrong... ."I need to imagine her with bubble wrap all around here... .and tread carefully"

I can't really rank those, but I consider all of them.

1.  The wrong thing:  I've been around her FOO.  Most arguments are about who is wrong or right (not solutions) and when people are wrong... .it doesn't end there... ."how could they... ?" and then various other judgments that essentially "show" that the "wrongness" is an indication of all sorts of character flaws and evil intent.

2.  Paranoia:  That I'm not really disabled and could work "if I wanted to".  That I have been able to trick the VA doctors into 100% permanent and total rating and then used my same "trickery" skills to convince Social Security that I was disabled as well. 

You see... .all of those people are "secular" and therefor they don't know what they are doing.  "Christians" can see through what I'm doing... .and if "i'd just admit my sin"... .I could get on with my life... .after all it's "just" sin... why not repent of it.

3.Abandonment:  My wife doesn't express this, but I'm positive it's there.  Imagine being a SAHM for a lot of years and having a guy provide... .and now he is not (actually just providing less)... .that's got to be scary for anyone... .add in BPDish or other PD type stuff.

FF

99,

I will pitch a few more Harry Truman's (dimes~10 cents/man hole covers ) into this bucket,

As the Father of an Autistic Son who is thirty-one years old, and functions at about a 5-7 year olds level, .and as well (obviously) married to a high functioning BPD wife & step mother.

... .it is "never ending", this giving more or else less information…

In the case of my S31, .not only do I "overly explain" things for him, so that he can understand in a basic way, I also add extra stuff, to keep his mind and thoughts occupied, so that he does not wonder off, or escape my peripheral if we are out and about, ie' grocery store, department store, hardware store etc',

And I too; also and concurrently watch what I say, or else I may trigger a never ending tirade of questions, at the very moment that I need to be concentrated on what is going on, checking out at the cash register, pulling out of a parking space, merging into traffic, or interacting/talking to another person, ie’ a sales person in the suspect/subject store, even my u/BPDw… I am very adept at “fast forwards”, “redirections”, and “side-liners”… when it comes to lovingly and compassionately dealing with my S31’s autism while out in the public.

That said; I am "conditioned to do this"... .and of course, I do this with my u/BPD wife also,

As in... .I have to watch what I say or I will trigger, and then I am caretaking not only my S31, but u/BPDw as well, whilst trying to get through the grocery store aisles… or whatever we may be engaged in at the moment, all the while and always trying to avoid yet another confrontation, melt down, or whatever you want to call it.

It is exhausting,

Many times, while out and about, if I “stop” for a moment to look at something, u/BPDw will continue on, and then quickly be out of sight, then I will HAVE TO immediately stop my “looking”, and go and find her, and if I don’t, she will be “angry”… yes, angry… keep in mind that most times I have my S31 with me, and all the while leading him along, and redirecting him to “keep up”, so that I can reconnect with u/BPDw, and quickly, or she’ll get mad… sheesh!

Sometimes, when I cannot get her back in my sight quickly, I will text her, and its 50-50 or less if she’ll respond.

She will ALWAYS be “snarky”, and say things that would piss a “normal Man” off… but Red5 is a caretaker, so I just take in on, and stuff it away, with all the rest.

I am always on alert, watching, observing, anticipating her, and as well my S31 when we are “out” together.

Insert yet another “exhausting” here.

And I can concur, if I were to say something like, “Babe, my back is d-u-n done, I am going to go out and sit in the truck, and I am taking S31 with me ok”… it’s about a 90% for sure thing that she will say some smart A$$ thing back to me… and most times as I run it through my klingon battle stations computer (brain), And the result of this thought process is “just let it go”, not a hill worth dying on today.

My opinion, I think it’s pretty much a crapshoot how these things will go, you can do good things (steak dinner), as in deposit good credit in the emotional bank, mistakenly expecting that you/we, the non, should enjoy a few hours of respite due to our good deed, or action, but NO, that’s not the way it goes, one perceived slight, ie’, leaving the checkout line to go sit in the car due to sacroiliac non mission capable status, and then resultant in; it’s time for the non to be punished for his insolence… for leaving the checkout line, and not paying for incidentals, even though this is standard operating procedure, ie’, hanging out in the last chance aisle looking at the latest issue of The National Enquirer, and waiting to pay for said incidentals when the shopping is declared done and completed by subject pw/BPD.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you don’t.

As for me, Red5;… I always “over notify/inform”… as I am conditioned to do this as I wrote above.

As several have written here before, I just say what I am going to do, and I do it forthwith.

Damn the torpedoes!

Hey… my back hurts, I am going to go and sit in the truck, and I start “walking”.

“Sit in the truck” means she’ u/BPDw is cleared hot to continue shopping without me, I’ll wait for her, and I won’t be mad, as I am chilling and off my feet now, ie’ she can connect the dot’s on that one!

As far as $$ in the world of Red5, we operate out of a joint “slushy fund”… the “fun account”… this account is NOT tied into any other $$ accounts, so that savings, bill paying and all of that is fire walled, and pad locked... .we don’t ask permission, but when its MT, well its MT… and then I go and knock off the local Piggly Wiggly … (no :), .just kidding .

So, I am now sitting in the truck with S31 listening to the Alex Jones show …

*Will u/BPDw be “mad”… yup, and so what.
*Will u/BPDw give me the what for on the way home, and then after we get home, and for the rest of the afternoon, & evening… yup, and so what.
*Will my aching back feel better, maybe… and GOOD for me!

Tomorrow is a new day, live and learn…

I have a great story about Christmas shopping back in 2016, which was one of the “big ones” that initiated my search for answers, resultant in bringing me here to BPDfam to begin with.

Ya’ll have a nice day !

Red5

Red, I gotta hand it to you for managing a son with autism and a BPD wife. I think you are correct that some of the skills are similar. The frustrating part is that you are most likely the guardian of your son and so have some control over some decisions, if not his behavior. Your wife, although disordered is a legal adult and you have less control.

I get the losing your wife in a store. Taking BPD mother to the mall feels similar to taking a small child to the mall. If my attention wavers, she can wander off and I have to stay focused on her.

I laughed at your Piggly Wiggly comment. Don't get too wild in there!

Fond memories of shopping in Piggly Wiggly while I was growing up.  I often run into people that can't believe a store is really named that... :)

FF

I miss shopping at Piggly Wiggly actually! There was one nearby where it's now a Walgreen's and it's part of the changes my neighborhood went through over time. It was a good store.

FF, I read through this thread, and I'm sorry you found yourself between a rock and a hard place. And right after a nice dinner!...

Happens...  

Given the history between you two, I cannot say what the financial deal might have been. From another angle I want to touch another point.

I am in a long term relationship and I know that it's normal to pass from a moment of 'being romantic' to a moment of 'just life as usual'. It's part of the deal, and for some unexpected reasons, it always grates at me a little when comes the pivot moment where things go back to the usual groove, sort of. I can understand the 'roommate' feeling your wife mentioned for sure. I've had it many times. I mean in BPD language you can add the expected verbiage and emotional load for sure.

In regards to you walking out to the car without texting or saying it was a need for you to do that, I am wondering.

Did you think about why you actually did not feel like giving her that information? Could it have been coming from a feeling of extra vulnerability from you?

Reading through the various comments on your post I went through different emotions and points of views. I thought about the fact that I do, sort of manage my emotions so that I don't give fuel to the fire, so to speak. Is that superseding the need for me to be authentic? Good question. I can see that I have been 'trained' to not share controversial information.

I also like the idea that giving relevant information is not the same thing than JADEing. That we can get into giving too much or too little information. More so I noticed lately, I might invalidate my spouse when I avoid letting her know of my own vulnerability while it's important, and she actually knows if I feel hurt. Sort of she picks up that I don't trust her to be loving with me.  I can see in BPD language the whole logic board cranking up to fill in the gaps.

Going back to your story I wondered why you didn't just text or call her to let her know why you were taking off to the car.

Could there have been a pattern of her taking off back in the store for more stuff she needed, and than you found yourself alone, left to do your own thing?

I thing these little pivot moments do have a way of revealing our vulnerabilities to each other.

Silence. Silence.

Do you remember FF after your dad had just passed, she didn't want to go first, than she turned around at the last minute, went along with you and your kids, and the end result was that you had a nice family visit with your mom and your entire family, as your heart had desired?

I wouldn't be the one to suggests that you should trust her more because I believe there is an art to it, and it is a very personal choice. I think aloud that you have all the rights in the world to do what feels best for you in all circumstances. If my back would be hurting, heck, I would be cranky myself!...

FF, you've been there so much on these boards for so many people for so long, it makes sense to think you have a bunch of us now following your posts, thinking of you, and reflecting all along with you on this.

Warm regards to you, and I hope you can do something nice for your back!

      

Big picture:  I share about 10% of the medical information I have with me.  Another way of saying I share very little.  Lot's of history there... lots.

Over time... .I'm sure I will start to share a bit more...

There wasn't a lot of thought put into not sharing about the medical part... .I just don't.  Not quite as strict as finances... but I don't give medical information to people that aren't trustworthy with it... .if my wife happens to fall in that category... .her choice... .not mine. 


I don't think this changes the tenor of the story... .but it can be common place for me to send out texts like this below... .that are "just information"... .no response needed or expected.
 
Below are texts I sent after we started shopping but before I went to the car.  If you remember, once I got to the car I was faced with a dilemma about which door she would come out... and I was pretty sure it would NOT be the door we went in.  So... .trying to do an "acts of service" (my love language)... .I placed a call.  She seemed fine. 

I have no idea if she read the texts... .although I have to assume she saw them when she started texting me.  The texts from her showed up... perhaps a minute after our call.

texts below

I'm getting milk I'm over next to the milk


 I am by the self-checkout line


 I'm heading out to the car


So... nothing unusual about those texts... .from other times we have shopped or done things where we were "together... .but apart for a bit"


FF

You may have not done anything out of the ordinary, but it touched on her underlying resentment. I don't propose you change your financial arrangement. She's demonstrated she isn't upright with money when she does have access to the funds, and this is the natural consequences.

That doesn't mean she can't have feelings about it.

 You're a dad, so you have been in this place- you give your child a fragile toy and he breaks it. Then he says " buy me a toy just like it" . You say "no, you broke this toy" ( the natural consequence). The lesson: ownership comes with responsibility". Your teen spends all her allowance. She asks for something. You say"no" you spent your allowance already".

Good lessons, good points, but is the kid happy about it? Do they say " yes Daddy I am so happy you said no to me" or are they upset and even resentful? ( I will bet the latter having witnessed a few tantrums and pouty teen age moods)

And what do you do when you "fix" their moods? You take away their opportunity to self soothe. So you let them have their moment.

A pwBPD has difficulty regulating their emotions. That doesn't mean they can't learn how to do this better. I understand Enabler's question about being insensitive to the disability, but "fixing" someone's feelings can add to their inability. We have to consider our own intentions and values. I don't believe FF set out to be cruel and hurtful and in the grand scheme of things this isn't a big hurtful action. So she got irritated. It's her discomfort, let her handle it.

I am conditioned to be a "fixer" and it isn't easy to let go of that. It can feel cruel and insensitive to me- but I have learned to rationalize it. I check with my own intentions. I think everyone has unintentionally ruffled someone's feathers or could do something better, but my intentions are not harmful or evil. If someone takes them that way, I can't fix that for them. I have to let them be with it. It is scary at first- to have someone accuse you of being the worst person ever when they don't get things their way, but also staying focused on the goal of letting someone learn to self soothe helps endure it.

 

The thought that occurs to me as I read through this thread is that we, as the more healthy partner have better, more nuanced communication skills.  And that we want to stay in the middle of the road with our communications

One size does not fit all.  One communication approach can yield various results.

I think there has to be fluidity in the nature of the response and reactions.   It will never be perfect.    But honest seems like a more attainable goal.

And... .less thought involved. 

Although in this case I didn't put a lot of thought into not saying anything, going forward I can add a few words that will give context to my actions.  If she does odd stuff as a result... or says odd stuff... .I'll cross that bridge when/if I get there.

FF

That's what I thought.
 
I wouldn't share too much either.

What strikes me in your text is that you are focusing at the 'medical' information. Perhaps because looking straight at the feelings associated to that are a bit, well, difficult to move around.

It's interesting because while writing my comment I was focusing at the 'feeling' information, not the 'medical' part. I meant your vulnerability at the time. You didn't feel good. You had to go in the car, etc... It's good to notice if you had that feeling. To not overlook it.

You responded your usual way. It all went good the usual way.
Yet, you had to take care of your painful back. It was not an exactly 'as usual' scenario there. You were in a place of hurt. Needed empathy yourself. There's not much you could do from there. Your choices were limited and you followed your code of honor. You did well in that respect.

That's where I'm heading with my comment. After the nice meal, it looked like you two were in a nice place together, and the shopping came as an after thought, on the way back home.

There things got a bit out of the nice range of feelings. I see your wife turned to those thoughts about being like roommates. Maybe the nice feeling got lost somehow in the big store shuffle. Happens.

Since you two have been in a relationship for a long time, there is not much newness there. You have it pat down. Money issues are also a common theme in long term relationships, so I will skip that part for my purpose now.

There seems to be a point that your wife did touch for both of you, even in her off the wall way. You two did have a nice moment together and things got blurred at the store. 

It happens a lot in old couples, no worries. Just that when one thing leads to another, there isn't enough nice times around...

Here is an odd question.

Have you thought to make an agreement with yourself in the future that if you'd be asked to stop at the store as an afterthought in a case like this, that you'd propose something that includes keeping your nice feelings and that's it. Gauge accordingly. Give affection. Validation, etc.

-   'Babe, I liked so much that nice time we've had.
     I know we don't have too much of those sweet times lately.
     I'd like to keep things simple and relaxed for us right now and
     continue to enjoy ourselves.'

-   'But I need to get this and that now. I've been waiting for us to get out
     to stop by the store for a while.'

-   'OK. Can we go there on (day/time of day) instead?

-   'Nah. You always expect me to wait, bla bla bla and now it can't wait.

-   'Allright. My back hurts a bit now too. I'm ready to settle for a nice
     evening at home. I can do x min (x items) for now and still have in
     in me to continue our nice time at home. (Validate the nice time again,
     or the accomplishment you celebrated). Meet you at the x door
     in x min.'

Nice touch, nice smile. If it's valid for you, if you still have it in you, naturally.

Than, whatever she does, you've shared your feelings in some way. If she doesn't respond nicely to you, than once at home, you can still take care of your back, etc...

I guess my question is, if you tried that approach, what % intimacy (or peace) you think you'd be experiencing?